We Do Not Wrestle with Flesh and Blood

You better believe it. The spiritual realm is real. And is Dr. Michael Brown.

This is Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on the Line of Fire. Phone lines are open wide. We've got a guest joining me at the bottom of the hour, Billy Halliwell, to talk about his book Playing with Fire, Christians and Demons. Yeah, we'll be talking about that. But phone lines are open wide. If you were trying to get through yesterday, express an opinion and weren't able to about the elections being stolen or not. And if you set a general question for me or want to challenge me on any point of view, phone lines are open wide.

866-348-7884. So, interestingly, about the same time that I was finishing this article about our calling to reprioritize the gospel, and it's filled with powerful quotes from Christian leaders in the past challenging us to go for the lost and go for souls and be great commission followers of Jesus. About that same time, as I was working on that article, an article was released with an interview from the Jewish insider interviewing house rep Madison Cawthorn. You may have seen pictures of him in a wheelchair.

He is now newly elected to the house and is the youngest house member. And in it, he was talking about sharing his faith and you know being zealous to do that and some of his history with rehab and the accident and why he's in a wheelchair and so on. And he talked about reading Gospels, reading Torah, reading the Quran. And one reason he read the Quran was to try to understand the Muslim mentality better. And if he met a Muslim who said, yeah, I'm a Muslim, but I'm kind of interested in Christianity.

Can we talk that he'd be able to talk with them? And said, actually, a couple times he's seen Muslims come to Christ. So, you know, naturally, it's a Jewish publication. What are you gonna ask him? You're gonna ask him, have you shared your faith with Jews? So, the way it's put in the article, you know, they asked if he's tried to convert Jews to Christ and he laughs in his answer and says, you know, I've got some folks to switch who are more like cultural Jews, but you know, the real religious ones, it's hard for me to, you know, interact or get a hearing with them kind of thing. And that was that.

That's no big deal. He is a Christian. He shared his faith. He is a follower of Jesus.

He shared his faith. That's what we are supposed to do. In fact, when you are born again as an adult or as a teenager, so you didn't know the Lord and you have this dramatic born-again experience and maybe you're raised in the faith and truly come to know Jesus in a real way, you just want to tell everybody. It's just natural.

It happens all the time. No one even needs to tell you you need to share your faith any more than when something special happens in your life and you have close friends and you want to tell them. So that's why, especially in the early days, you just share your faith left and right.

Most of us did it almost, it was, we were contagious to be around because the moment we're around someone, we're gonna be talking about Jesus and just, we didn't have all the wisdom at that time and, you know, and maybe didn't even have all the compassion, but boy, we just had to tell everybody. And then it remains a mandate, which is why missionaries go all around the world and who do we go to? To the ones who don't believe. That's why we share our faith with Muslims and with atheists and with Buddhists and with Hindus and with Jews and with others who don't believe what we believe. If they believe what we believe, we'll bless them as brothers and sisters and have fellowship, but we won't go to share the message with them. We do that for those who don't believe.

Of course we do. And here Madison Cawthorne has enough sense to realize here, a religious Jew, it's been harder to interact with them, but he seemed from the interview to have real respect for the Jewish people as a Christian. So some folks found out about this, this outcry of daily beasts, like, no, no! What? Sharing is trying to convert Jews, Muslims? He's in the House of Representatives?

What? Chris Hayes on MSNBC, this is an overtly anti-Semitic thing to do and calls for the GOP to condemn, to condemn Madison Cawthorne for sharing his faith, for doing what Christians do. So I've got my latest article on this and I went to check on him and sure enough there he is on Twitter and instead of backing down, oh let me just grab his tweet, instead of backing down he's saying, hey, this is dangerous when people are telling me not to share my faith. He says, I'm being attacked because I share my faith with others. Is the left fully anti-religious freedom now?

This is dangerous for America. So my hope is that Madison Cawthorne will share his faith all over Congress. My hope is that he'll share with Muslim members, he'll share with Jewish members, nominal Christians, others, that is he develops relationships and gains respect from people and they begin to interact with him as a peer, that he'd be a good witness. That's what we are called to do. This is not the great suggestion but the great commission to go into all the world and make disciples, to go and preach the gospel, right, to be witnesses, to share our faith. Jesus says to his followers, his first apostles, follow me and I'll make you fishers of men.

As Dawson Trotman, founder of the Navigators, wrote many years ago, we were born to reproduce, we have been born into the kingdom of God to reproduce. So go for it, sir, with love, with wisdom, with sensitivity, without conversion as I assume you do, go for it, share the good news. And now back to us and the larger subject of the show today, talking about the spiritual realm, remember our battle is ultimately spiritual. Political issues do matter, culture wars do matter and if we just abdicate, let's just think, it's so dirty, it's so messy, it's so ugly, no party is perfect, no candidate is perfect, it's just so much money spent, it gets taxed and just it's such a waste of time and energy, let's just leave that to others, leave the culture to others, leave politics to others and multiply tens of millions of Christians abdicate their responsibility, our responsibility as believers in the society, then there is no salt, there is no light and pretty soon we can't practice our faith. That's what would happen in a country like America, where we make up what, a third of the population maybe, at least a quarter of the population, let's say a third of the population, you take us out, oh yeah, there are decent people that don't believe what we believe and there are people that want freedom that don't believe what we believe and they're they're they're ethical Jews and Muslims and others that don't believe what we believe, but you take us out in those numbers, you're talking about the end of the ability to practice our faith freely in America, the end of our ability to teach our children what we want in our homes and in our schools, so no we don't abdicate, we don't drop out, we play our role but we keep our focus, our focus on where it needs to be, which is being disciples and making disciples, knowing God and making God known.

That's why we're here, first and foremost, Great Commission. And yes, I'm glad that there's a lot of prayer for the outcome of the elections, because look, no matter which way this goes, there's going to be chaos, there's going to be potential riots, there's going to be rejection of the outcome by one side or the other, barring divine grace helping us, so we need prayer, right? Even if you're utterly convinced Trump lost, of course it's obvious, the votes in, done, well what's going to make the Trump supporters believe that, believe there has been massive fraud, and while I'm not worried about them burning down buildings and things in our cities, I am concerned that there could be a real rejection of the current government's authority, if it ends up with President Biden.

I have a genuine concern about that. On the flip side, let's say there has been massive fraud, and let's say the election has been stolen, and ultimately the courts recognize this, and this is decided the way that Trump ends up being president next four years. You think the millions that voted against him are just going to sit back and say no problem, and then the radical groups like the BLM and Antifa and others are not going to start setting cities on fire? So either way, we need a lot of prayer. We need a lot of prayer for the outcome of the election, but what would happen if we also had been praying for months and years with this fervor, with this passion, with this organization by the hundreds of thousands and the millions, if we had been praying for souls, for the Great Commission, for harvest, for revival in the church leading to awakening in society? Can you imagine what America would look like if we gave that same energy, attention, focus, prayer, burden to see our neighbors saved? I'm not saying we're not doing that at all, but I'm saying our priorities have gotten out of whack. Here, on a daily basis, on a daily basis, whether it's positive or negative, I bet many of us talk about Trump more than about Jesus, whether it's in a positive way or a negative way. I bet that many of us do, or many of us get more passionate about the name Trump, either positively or negatively, than the name of Jesus.

I'm saying priorities, priorities, priorities are off, alright? For all of us, it's just good to do soul-searching. And hey, look, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it, don't get mad at me. Don't get upset with me, because I'm not judging you, I don't know you, I'm speaking in generalities about many of us.

Here, there was a time when, if I'd hear some nutritionist talking about unhealthy eating and the dangers of obesity and things like that, when I was overweight and eating unhealthily, I didn't like it, it bothered me. Now if I hear someone talking about it, I'm amen-ing them. Good, good, we need to hear this, because God's helped me transform my lifestyle the last six and a quarter years. So if what I'm saying doesn't apply to you, then pray for those to whom it does apply, because it does apply to many. And if you don't believe me, just go to one of my social media feeds on Twitter, or better still, Facebook, AskDr.

Brown, ASKDearBrown on Facebook, and look at some of the dialogue and discussion and the passion and intensity of it when it's just on a political issue, and then look at the discussion when it's on a gospel issue. I mean, it's a fraction. Why?

Because it's not stirring up the emotions and our passions the same way. So priorities, priorities. Let's get them in the right place, and Madison Cawthon and other truly Christian people in Congress and those that work for and with them, be good witnesses. May the Lord use your testimony to reach many. All right, 866-348-7884.

We come back, we're going straight to your calls. Also, do you get my emails? All you want to, well-informed latest videos, latest articles, key resources, special announcements, go to my website AskDrBrown.org. AskDrBrown.org.

Go there, sign up for the emails. We'll also send you a free mini e-book, Seven Secrets to the Real Messiah, but make sure you sign up today. You won't be disappointed. We'll be right back. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the Line of Fire now by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us, friends, on the Line of Fire, 866-348-7884.

We'll start in Charleston, West Virginia. Alan, welcome to the Line of Fire. Hey, Dr. Brown, how you doing today? Very well, thank you.

Yeah, I got a question. As you know, there's been a lot of prophetic voices that have come out and prophesied, a lot of them, that Trump would win in a wide margin. And unless God intervenes or they find widespread fraud, that is not going to happen. And those prophecies are going to be proven falsely. And my question is, to those with a national voice like yourself and other people, how are those people going to be addressed?

Yes, sir. Well, I plan to address the outcome of this clearly and with whatever relationships I have, privately and publicly. Of course, we'll say things on the air and in writing, so God helping. I'm not predicting the future, but my always, God willing, in anything we do. So number one, we're not at the end of the story yet. And it could be that the fraud is that massive and that many votes switched and so on, so that you, you know, there will be a landslide. But barring that, right, that's still possible but seems highly, highly unlikely, but still possible. The major voices that we heard repeatedly didn't predict a landslide but a victory.

So at the very least, Trump's re-election, if that does not happen, then what would my course of action be? I'm not the charismatic pope. There is no such thing. I'm not the head of the charismatic denomination.

There is no one charismatic denomination in many of the largest churches or independent of a denomination. But here's what I would do. Any that I know personally, I would interact with person.

In fact, I would expect some would come to me to talk about this. That's the first thing, and I would encourage them not to make excuses, not to say we didn't pray hard enough, we didn't believe hard enough. No, it didn't happen. Well, maybe it'll happen in four years. Well, then you need to say, hey, we're prophesying in part.

We don't know if this is 2020 or 2024, because that's the whole problem, that when we look at prophecy as news headlines in advance, we can be misled, because prophecy is not always that clear. So the first thing I would say, publicly and privately, is make no excuses. Something was wrong. Something was missed.

That would be the first thing. You cannot blame it on, we didn't pray enough, we prayed plenty. We didn't have enough faith, and you know, you could use that as a cop-out any, any time, any time something doesn't come to pass. Hey, God did speak it. You just didn't believe hard enough, you know. I'm prophesying that we're gonna go to the cemetery, and ten people are gonna get out of the graves, and when it doesn't happen, it's like, well, God showed me, you just didn't have enough faith.

That's a dangerous cop-out. So that would be the first thing. The second thing would be that I would, and I've been thinking about all this already, just in case, right, that I would talk to some of my other nationally respected leader friends, some peers, and see if we could gather together all those that we know, either face-to-face or via Zoom, the leading prophetic voices that prophesied falsely, if in fact Trump is not re-elected, all right, and we have to have a major accounting. What happened?

How did that happen? And third, if the prophecies are true, and they do come to pass, which I would love to see for two reasons. One, I prefer Trump to Biden with my various misgivings.

I still strongly prefer Trump to Biden or Trump Pence to Biden-Harris. That's one. And two, I don't want there to be more reproach on the prophetic and more reproach on the charismatic Church, and the fact is, non-charismatics are gonna get blamed too. Christians who don't even believe in prophecy today, they're just gonna get blamed because Christians in general are gonna get blamed for crazy prophecies.

So it's gonna bring reproach. For those reasons, I'd like for it to happen, but God didn't speak to me either way in terms of what is coming. So even if the prophecies prove true, I would be very concerned about the way prophecy has come to such prominence that we're kind of led by the prophets, that it's just all the prophetic voices out in front instead of the prophets being part of larger leadership structures, teams, other leaders who are jointly processing things. Because as I said the other day, one of my pastor friends learned years ago that a prophet may have the revelation but doesn't have the interpretation or the application.

That's where the body works together. So number one, I would speak to people individually about accountability issues. I would say publicly, don't make any excuses.

Something went wrong. I would then do my best to get a gathering of other key leaders to look at this and to address the abuses, the problems. And if the words did prove true, then aside from pushing back at the skeptics who mocked the whole time, to tell them be careful, I would still want to have some leadership discussion about how we can get the prophetic in a better place within the body so it's not kind of leading the way. So that's my lengthy explanation to an important question. Does it leave you with any questions? No, like I told the lady that took the call that not only if they prove untrue are we going to look bad to the world, but our sensationalist friends that don't believe in the gifts, that don't, you know, don't believe in the spiritual way we do, I think they're going to kind of take that and run with it, too.

Yeah, and understandably, Alan, I totally understand that. For my non-charismatic friends, for critics, for a cessationist, for hyper critics, or just those maybe used to be charismatic, got burnt, I 100% understand that this would be massive fuel for their fire to write the whole thing off. And the fact that you had some prophetic voices saying that COVID would dissipate in April, you know, around Passover, and that didn't happen.

Yeah, there's egg on different faces. My reason for not rejecting the prophetic is, number one, scripture is abundantly clear to me that prophetic ministry continues until Jesus returns. That's one. And two, I'm an eyewitness to the reality of it through much of my believing life, both receiving and at times used in it, and I have many friends with story after story after story that brings glory to God, that honors Jesus, that grounds people in the Word, and, you know, so I know the reality of this, but that's why I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but Alan, I fully understand. I could not fault my friends, charismatic, rejecting friends, cessationist friends, who just say, this thing's so flaky, you guys, when are you gonna learn? When are you gonna learn?

I understand that. I would just say, okay, can we just go back to the Bible and see what the Bible says, even if there are abuses? But look, if these words are true, then my question would be, why, virtually to a person, do these national prophetic voices, and even some in other countries, bring the same message? We just don't need information in advance. There's no reason, I've spoken at different times and I'll be doing a show next week about this, we don't just need information in advance.

Who's gonna win this? We don't have glorified fortune-tellers today. So if information is given in advance, there's got to be a reason for it, and it would be to hold on and to keep praying when everything seems like it won't happen. But in any case, listen, let's all contend for the will of God, right? Amen? God, bring your will to pass for the nation and the church. Expose error, fraud, deceit, wherever it is, be it in the church, be it in the world, be it among the Republicans, Democrats, the voting, wherever. Your will be done, let the light shine. We should all be able to agree on that. All right, thank you for the call and the question, and we will carefully revisit these things when the time is appropriate. Let us go over to Henry in Zachary, Louisiana. Welcome to the line of fire.

Hey Dr. Brown, thank you so much. I've got a question. One of my friends loves Jesus and really awesome guy, and I'm trying to figure something out, and I haven't really dug too deep into the scriptures with this yet, but is naturism and Christianity compatible, or is it even compatible with the scriptures? Naturism, how would you define that? Nudism, non-sexual, nudity. Like nudist camp stuff? Yeah. Okay, and you have a friend that loves Jesus that is a naturist nudist?

In a sense, yeah. He actually turned me on to your show. He loves you too.

Okay, well tell you what, tell you what, so for your friend here, make sure that he gets to listen to this. God clothed Adam and Eve, okay? God clothed them. Before the fall, they were naked and they were like little children.

Before eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They were like little children, so you've got a changing table with a naked boy and another changing table with a naked girl, and they're six months old, and there's no clue, there's no shame, there's nothing, because they're completely innocent. Adam and Eve, as mature, brilliant individuals, were completely innocent before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

We are no longer innocent. God clothed us, and the Scriptures often talk about modesty. We're even told in New Testament, women, where there could be more pressure, how you dress, etc., to be to be modest in apparel.

So absolutely, categorically, no. God covered Adam and Eve, and he wants us to cover ourselves, and that's why nakedness is associated with shame in the Bible. The shame of your nakedness. To be uncovered is a shameful thing, so if your friend really loves Jesus, as you say, Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments, and the Bible is clear. Modesty, covering ourselves, this is what godly people do, and those that walk around naked say there's nothing sexual about it. It's not because they're so spiritual, it's because they become hardened and insensitive. All right, we'll be right back. it's the line of fire with your host dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution here again is dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us on the line of fire Michael Brown here with my guest Billy Howell Billy has been involved in journalism and media for the last couple of decades and has a brand new book I actually did an interview for part of the book called playing with fire a modern investigation into demons exorcism and ghosts Billy welcome back to the line of fire and what in the world got you interested in this subject hey thanks for having me well you know it's so interesting over the years working at the blaze and faith wire and other media outlets there would be stories routinely of people who had gone through what they believed to be possession and exorcism and deliverance and so I would encounter these stories and they always stuck with me and I'm a lifelong believer and so these are things that obviously I was familiar with scripturally but hadn't had a lot of you know first-hand experience with until these stories emerged and so I would cover those stories here or there but I got to tell you if you had said to me oh you're going to go and write a book about this I probably would have laughed at you but it was just an amazing sort of process of prayer and this project kind of dropped right in my lap and I prayed over for a few months and I thought about people like you and others so I know I'm theologically know a lot about this and I really I wanted to approach it as a journalist and a Christian obviously but kind of take that approach to it to really dive into the evidence that's out there and then to help people understand what the scripture really say so who were some of the people that you interviewed for the book so I spoke with a number of people all within the Christian world you've got dr. Michael Heizer I mean he takes sort of an interesting view on the nature of demons I spoke with Benjamin McIntyre who's a he's really in in deliverance ministry I spoke with Daniel Rodriguez so I kind of had the chance to really dive in to people who are dealing with this you know a people who are dealing with it routinely right the people who work in deliverance and in exorcism but be pastors who might just encounter this in their everyday ministry and that was really interesting to kind of see the difference right of people who are encountering it in their churches but it's not their day to day and then people who it's their day to day now in addition to that I actually spoke with people who were involved in specific cases some of them were high-profile cases that made that made the news in fact things that we've internationally talked about in the media one one case is in Indiana which I'm sure you're probably familiar with Indiana so you know getting a chance to talk with some of those people was really eye-opening because as a journalist right in my mind I'm always looking for even though I know this is real and I believe that individual cases I'm sort of looking to see okay where are the holes in the story is there something here that might not be what they think it is and it was interesting to sort of discover and some of these stories that I couldn't find any of those things I was finding things then that really back to the stories up so in terms of some of the data we know that Scripture speaks a lot about demons especially in the New Testament and that the disciples regularly drove out demons along with healing the sick we know that Paul writes that we don't wrestle with flesh and blood but with the spiritual powers in heavenly places we know that we're told to resist the devil and things like that but I think for many of us demons the spiritual realm is is very secondary because we're so focused on what we can see in the physical realm around us in some of your research and what you put in the book playing with fire are you convinced that exorcisms happen today I am and you know it's interesting I think that we have a cultural obsession I don't think that I know it right you look at Hollywood and when I was going through and writing playing with fire I kept encountering this theme of feeling as though man you know Hollywood is talking about demons and ghosts I'm gonna put that word in quotes but ghost demons and evil more than some churches are and they're not talking about it in an accurate way but there's this real human interest in that's right and I think it's because human beings know that at the core there's something more we know that there is whether we say we believe or not and yet and yet we're out there watching these movies but we're not really thinking about these things in practice and so to specifically answer your question yes I think possession full possession right like what we see in films again they're not accurately portraying it always but that is very rare but I think spiritual affliction is not is not rare at all and I think all of these things happen and what is so interesting I was looking at some critics and you know just kind of reading what people were saying about playing with fire and about the topic itself and they'll dismiss outright any evidence that's out there but again there are so many compelling examples of people who have experienced something that they cannot explain yeah and they line up many of these stories line up very well with what we see happening in Scripture especially when you look at Jesus healing you know people who are afflicted that these you know I guess you would call them symptoms of possession they line up in some of these stories pretty well you know one of one story that I've told that I was an eyewitness to was very dramatic was years ago there were friends of ours who had one of their kids in the same Christian school where our kids were going and one day they they came to talk to me mom and dad their daughter was three years old they had a pool in their backyard when she was two she was very tight always jabbering talking and she somehow the mom looked away for a moment and the girl walked down the steps the little girl into the pool and was in overhead the mom saw raced over grabbed her before anything happened but the kid stopped talking and for a year she hadn't uttered a word as to jabbering the whole time and doctors didn't know what happened to her still evidence of brain damage and and I just said I immediately said there's a spirit of fear came over her and she didn't used to be broken off of her they came to a meeting one night and I prayed over them the the daughter was home I the two-year-old the three-year-old at that point I prayed over them the power of God fell on them was quite dramatic they went home and she was chattering away and when I saw them for the first time in years oh was I think late last year they said yes she's doing counter to I think works in counterterrorism something like that we were all smiling about it but I mean she didn't even know what's happening and here you had a whole year and then when we suddenly broke in the spirit realm she was set free so obviously we can go to extremes and get crazy and the devil made me do it but you're researching things as a journalist a clear-headed guy and say not only is the Bible talk about it but there's clear evidence of it what about Billy the bigger picture of our society as a whole is it just human beings getting crazier or do you think that there's spiritual warfare that affects our nation I think there's definitely a spiritual warfare that affects our nation when when I was going through writing the book I'm looking at I had never gone through scripture and only isolated out the parts to talk about Satan and evil right it's not something that I had ever done I've read it all I've looked through it but you kind of read it and you move on but when you pull those puzzle pieces out and you have a chance to really look at who Satan is I mean he's lying he's attempting to steal and destroy and to kill and you look at what is happening in culture and the very attributes of Satan that are described we see them manifesting in culture and it's happening at a time I and of course we've always had these cultural blights right do these things have always been there but it's intensifying and it's happening at a time when we're sort of saying hey we don't we don't need God anymore at the culture we don't need these central underpinnings we're gonna figure it out on our own and I think as Christians we know that that's not doable we're not going to figure it out on our own you end up with chaos when you remove when you remove God but absolutely I think we see cultural sways and cultural shifts if you look at media and you look at Hollywood and you look at what has happened in the last 15 years it's almost unimaginable and unbelievable what we've allowed to be on television during primetime right I mean so this this influence I think is everywhere and we're going to see that intensify I believe at time as time goes on here but again you have a weird situation where culture is obsessed with a topic yet love to only sort of be fascinated with it when it involves you know quote-unquote fiction but we have real stories out there of people who have been afflicted and they've been hurting and they've been looking for answers and it's virtually ignored and so it's really interesting to just see those parallels and connect that so I do talk a fair bit about that cultural aspect in playing with fire as well so friends go to playing with fire book calm playing with fire book calm Billy do you have your own view as to the origin of demons you know that's an interesting question because I try to avoid telling people what I think about it I really don't and here's what I'll say I know there's a debate over whether it's Nephilim or whether it's fallen angels what's interesting to me is that I think it's good to have those discussions I tend to you know the fallen angel paradigm tends to resonate a little more but I know people on both ends of that spectrum but for me the thing I've reminded people is you look at Ephesians 6 we're in this battle it's not in us versus them although I think we get consumed by that there's a real spiritual battle going on so it doesn't to me really even matter what they are it's the same effect right it's the same it doesn't the nature of them doesn't really impact whether as these breaking into your house you don't say where'd you come from what state did you know what what ethnicity or no so I agree I mean it is it is an interesting discussion and and I appreciate you're just putting the different views out obviously though you know as an author and publishers want to know okay how's this gonna help the readers it's great to give them interesting information but what's it gonna do for readers so first how did this impact you writing playing with fire and then what do you hope in the book will do or are you as you're hearing from readers as the books just been out for a little while now what are you hearing from readers how's it impacting them you know for me I have to be honest I was a little scared to write it and that's why I sat on the contract for two months I've been a lifelong Christian but I'm looking at these issues and I'm thinking do I want to invite this in my home do I am I equipped to do this and I had all these questions about it and what's so crazy to me is that at the end it was one of the most peaceful experiences because what it did and I hope this is the same thing for others when they read it is it really did reconnect me with that Ephesians 6 message this idea that this exists that it's real that we have this spiritual battle going on and that we can have a shield of faith and we can take up the armor of God and what does that really mean it means living as Christians you know having a relationship with Christ praying reading scripture having a day-to-day real you know relationship and that that is what keeps us grounded and protected in the midst of that of that battle and so it brought me a great piece and I would say the biggest thing for readers I don't want people to be scared or freaked out I have heard from people they said wow you know there's so many stories in there that really impacted me and yeah there were moments I was freaked out at the end the goal is for people to be pointed back to Christ right when you understand evil and you truly grasp it I believe it actually points you right back to the need for Christ and for grace and so that for me was my personal takeaway and that's what I'm really hoping I mean I went into this project praying and saying God I want you to use this however you want to use it because it's not a topic I think you talk about it I you know we talk about it in our world but I think generally even in a lot of churches it's not being discussed so I want people to talk about it discuss it and really be pointed back to Christ yeah and I think too as we come to our break here you know with all the world's interest in ghosts and paranormal we probably know non-believers that say hey read this maybe it'll draw them to the Lord as well hey Billy thanks for writing the book friends go to playing with fire book calm god bless Billy thank you it's the line of fire with your host dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution here again is dr. Michael Brown yeah I'm I'm eager to read the rest of the book as I said did an interview with Billy and incorporated some of that in the book but he's a great journalist and puts things together in a good way so check the book out playing with fire that kind of don't come don't confuse that with my book playing with holy fire which is a wake-up call to the Pentecostal Charismatic Church in which I have chapters on mercenary prophets and unaccountable prophets and remember much of what we know about the gifts in the New Testament is because Paul was dealing with abuses but he never said stop the gifts or I reject the gifts to deny from heaven in fact he praised the Corinthians for not falling behind in any of the gifts and so that he wanted their faith not to rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God that's when he came in first preached to them but abuses must be dealt with where they are and to repeat what I've said many times I'd rather have the gifts in operation with abuses that we can correct then not have the gifts in operation so it's 6 6 3 4 truth we continue our interaction let's go to Orlando in High Point North Carolina welcome to the line of fire how you doing mr. Brown very well thank you my question deals with first Corinthians chapter 14 could you guys be talking about prophecy people prophesying about Trump being going to win other people prophesying or a bunch of things and I don't see prophecy as something that you tell about the future but something by God tells about future this is God telling the future not us so when we say that says the lower and the Old Testament now in the New Testament we said God is talking to us that's what the book says that in the late of that time guys speaking to us through his son so I look across as yes things that is already written about the future not about something that somebody says oh God told me your tongue was gonna win I don't know I see something that I'm sorry go ahead so Orlando to clarify then so in the New Testament in the book of Acts the 11th chapter Agabus comes with a group of prophets and he prophesized that there's going to be a famine that comes to the root to the to the Roman Empire right isn't that prophecy about the future and then in Acts 21 Agabus prophesized that that Paul's going to be bound when he gets to Jerusalem so prophecy in the New Testament is not only predicting the future but sometimes it does predict the future would you agree with that I agree that but that will be something like the Holy Spirit let him know that something was gonna happen to a person so we can tell them right but the Roman famine coming to Roman Empire that was for everybody and then they concluded they were supposed to do something from it so Orlando here's where you and I absolutely agree that God is not just giving abstract information Lord what's the weather gonna be in four days it well the only reason I need to know that is if I'm isolated somewhere in a catastrophic situation and I have no access to know the weather I have to make a life-critical decision you know otherwise you know get online and check the weather right or you know okay there's a you know who's gonna win Super Bowl you know in in 2022 the next Super Bowl Gus is just gonna give that information in a random way but if there's a reason we need to know it right you know that someone I remember a friend of mine I was praying with one time at my house and this was in early 1980s and as we as we were praying or mid 1980s he got really shaken and I said what happened he said well I just saw one of the two of us you know getting this severe demonic attack hit and it's almost took us out I figured it must be for him not for me well he went and shared it with Nancy my wife and she probed him and he said no it was Mike there's a real bad attack that's gonna come against him so we went to pray in advance and the attack did come it was a real bad spiritual attack but because we had been praying in advance when it hit it was not nearly as forceful it's kind of like with a hurricane that she already boarded up the house and evacuated so yeah for sure sir there's something practical God's giving speaking to a person about something in their lives or if there's future information there's a reason for it it's never just abstract so in this case with so many people saying Trump would be reelected if it was just hey we want to know what's coming tell us that's why for what that's not how prophecy operates or the purpose of it however however if there was a reason we needed to know in advance which in this case was no God really did speak that and you need to hold on and pray and don't get discouraged by the fraud or allegations of fraud fun we'll see or they were wrong they were wrong hey thank you for the call and the interaction I very much appreciate it my brother eight six six three four truth let's go over to Susan and Rockville Maryland welcome to the line of fire good afternoon dr. Brown thank you so much for taking my call I just wanted to say that my my feeling on the whole discussion about the prophets getting it wrong or getting it right I think that you know just like in the Hebrew Bible that when we don't doubt that prophets got it right I mean when we went to bed on Tuesday night Trump had won so the prophecies were correct there's no question that he won that he had been a friend to Israel they were having covenant saying that he will bless those who bless the Jews and curses however we did not know of the demonic software called of all things Dominion was going to come into play so let me were right yeah let me challenge that on a few levels okay number one when we went to sleep Tuesday night still there's not been sufficient count Trump was looking much better at that point but nothing official had taken place that's the first thing the second thing is if in fact this Dominion software is everything that it's being said it was and switched all these votes God knew about that in advance that didn't surprise him he knew about it before the world was created and and that's the second thing the third thing is that many of the prophets said he would be reelected not just that he would win at a certain point in time that he would be reelected and serve a second term that's a very different thing so if if the conditions were if the church prayed it would have more the church had been praying like crazy that that can't be the issue mass gatherings private gatherings online gatherings so to me with all respect Susan either either it will happen and the prophets will be proven to have really heard from the Lord and they've held on to those words even when it seemed impossible like or very difficult like right now or they'll have to say we were wrong and we were wrong not just here and there but almost to a person which would be a very very serious breach but again I don't I don't want to I don't mean to demean what you're saying and I know you've given serious thought to it but no I don't accept that that to me is is a is an easy way out that that to me is like I prophesy you know by the side of a crash on the side of the road as the person is being medevaced to the hospital God shall be that they're gonna they're gonna live and the the the injuries are not life-threatening and then the helicopter crashes while the crash killed them it's like something would be missing there but thank you thank you for calling and weighing in I do appreciate it eight six six three four truth let's go over we'll stay in Maryland Silver Spring right next to Rockville Chelsea welcome to the line of fire hi dr. Brown how are you doing very well thanks I just have a quick question this is a general question I don't think have to do with your segment today but I was talking to a pastor and he said that there's a difference between being born again and being saved so basically somebody can get saved but it doesn't mean that they have been born again in the spirit and I thought about that because I always believe that you can't lose your salvation because to me I'm like well how can you become unborn again but based off of that explanation I can kind of more to understand how someone can lose their salvation if it's a difference between being saved and being born again I just want to know your thoughts on that yeah so I with all respect I differ with the pastor that being saved and being born again are really synonymous in the New Testament believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved right in acts 16 or if we believe in our heart confess with our mouths Jesus the Lord will be saved Romans 10 and then Jesus saying in John 3 you must be born from above the new birth is salvation the new birth is being saved from sin saved from death same from the the kingdom of Satan saved from the wrath of God brought into the kingdom of light going from children of darkness to children of God so saved born again absolutely synonymous now there is an ongoing work of salvation in our lives but that we are being sanctified and set apart to God in an ongoing way but for someone to be saved it's really synonymous with being born again now there are many who like you say no you can't lose your salvation you can't go from being you pass from death to life you don't go back to death or from being born again to unborn again so I understand that way of thinking but as I understand scripture God does not force us to stay in his house in other words he welcomes us as his children and he gives us new life but he doesn't force us to stay in his house we can if we desire walk away from him and deny him at which point we forfeit our our rights and we forfeit the gift of life that the Holy Spirit has given us but either way I would I would make those two separate issues Chelsea in other words that saved and born again are used synonymously in the New Testament I say absolutely yes and generally speaking in our Christian parlance today those of us that use the term born again or saved because not everyone uses those terms we're talking about the same thing and if I say when you get saved I'm asking when did you get born again when did you come to know the Lord when did you meet the Lord and go from not knowing him to knowing him not serving him to serving him living for yourself to learn for him when were you saved when were you born again the question of losing your salvation that whether it's possible not put that in a separate category and you can continue to dwell on that study the scripture hey great talking to you thanks for the call tomorrow Thoroughly Jewish Thursday we're gonna gonna get to the scriptures and Jewish objections to Jesus and have a great time together and remember if you don't get my emails you want to trust me go to ask dr. 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