O.S. Hawkins Interview 2020

Audio on Demand from Vision Christian Media. Through our scripture, here's David and his interview with author and friend, O.S. Hawkins.

Hey, I'm talking to my friend, O.S. Hawkins today. He's not a stranger to those of you who listen to me on the radio because we have featured some of his code books in the past and always get such great response from all of you because of the way these books are written and how they communicate. And during the month of November, we have a brand new code book from O.S. Hawkins and I think it's the best one of all and it's one that I'm truly excited about. And before I get into the discussion of the book, let me welcome O.S. Hawkins to our discussion today. Thank you, Dr. Jeremiah. It's a joy to be with you.

Appreciate all you do for the kingdom and how God is just enlarging the kingdom through the ministry you've received from him. Well, you know, we believe in the printed page. Someone once told me you can talk on the radio and people will hear that, but when you put it in print, it's permanent.

It gives a sense of stability to what you're saying. And so, over the years, we have distributed millions of books, literally, and we've also had the privilege of introducing you and your books to our people and vice versa. The book you just released, The Bible Code, is our special ministry for this month. And I'd like to ask you, first of all, what caused you to start using the word code in these books? Because that's kind of the signature word that everybody associates with you.

Right. And, you know, I really don't know how to answer that other than the fact that it's not code in the sense of a secret, but it's sort of a code in being able to unlock truth that's already there in the Word of God. You know, it all started, David, when I began to realize that new believers that I'd seen come to the Lord, and even believers that had been walking with the Lord, found it a little bit difficult to get into the Word of God. Maybe they started in Matthew, and by the time they got through the first chapter, they couldn't pronounce half the names in the genealogy.

Or if they started in Genesis, they got bogged down by Leviticus. And so, I picked 52 verses in the Bible that I thought every believer ought to know. And if they would know those 52 verses, they would know, basically, the theme of the whole Bible. And Joshua 1-8 says, This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night in order that you may do all that's written therein.

And then you'll make your way prosperous, and then you'll have good success. So, I picked those 52 verses, and I called it the Joshua Code, 52 scripture verses every believer should know. One for every week of the year. Memorize that verse that week. There are Bible study materials here. There are practical helps to apply it to your life. And it was a devotional guide, and it just took off. It wasn't about getting people into the Word of God. It's about getting the Word into our people.

Yeah. And you know what happens when you do that? When you put it in that format, it doesn't intimidate people. When they see it, they read the first one, and they think, Oh, I can do that. And then they get into it, and little by little, you know, sometimes we try to feed the people of God with a fire hose, and they choke and drown, and it just overwhelms them. Yet, the profundity of these books is what I think is really being used of God.

Well, thank you. And you know, then I was reading devotionally through the Gospels, like I've done hundreds of times, and all of us have, if we've lived decades of Christian experience like I have. And I began to be taken by the numbers of times Jesus asked questions in the Gospels, over 150 questions he asked. We know he was omniscient, he had all knowledge, he didn't need the answers, but he was trying to use that as a way for us to see where we were. So then I came up with 52 scripture questions every believer ought to know before they get to heaven.

If a man dies, will he live again? What thank you to Christ whose son is he? And so that was the Jesus Code, 52 scripture questions every believer should know. And now the Bible Code, Finding Jesus in Every Book of the Bible is the 12th or 13th in that series, and they've sold over two million copies, and all my royalties of all these books go to Mission Dignity, which is a ministry we have here at Guidestone that helps retired pastors and their widows and their declining years.

Amen. You know, one of the reasons that I'm so interested in this new project that we have a copy of it sitting here, and I don't want to get too theological about this, but over the last year, for the first time in my life, I've heard somewhat respected Bible teachers talk about disconnecting from the Old Testament. And it just overwhelms me to think about that. And, you know, you know, the idea that there's something uniquely different about the New Testament, obviously, these are two different writings from two different periods of time in history. But the thing that has to really be understood is that Jesus is the theme of all of it. And if you disconnect the New Testament from the Old Testament, you're leaving half of it on the table. When you came and showed how Jesus is referenced in every book in the Old Testament, it was something I knew, but it was also something very refreshing and powerful. And I just want to tell you that I think this is going to be a blessing to a lot of people, and it's also going to be new information to a lot of people, because many of God's people don't know that you can find Jesus in the Old Testament.

Exactly. And, of course, Jesus Himself expressed that on numerous occasions. After the crucifixion, the disciples forsook Him and fled, and they were dejected, and Cleopas and that unnamed disciple, follower from Emmaus were headed back, and the resurrected Christ appeared to them. And as you know, in Luke 24-27, it says, in beginning with Moses and all the prophets, He did explain to them, expound to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. So, from Moses to Malachi, Jesus preached Jesus, and back when He went to Jerusalem in John 5, He said in verse 39, search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me. He was talking about the Old Testament. And then, of course, in verse 46, saying, if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, He said, because He wrote of Me. So, we believe Jesus can be found in every book of the Bible. Amen. Well, let's talk about some of these, because they'll be a surprise to some folks. For instance, in the book of Amos, you say that Jesus is our plumb line. Tell us about that.

Yeah. Amos was a country preacher, as you know. And if you read his language, compare it to Isaiah or some of the others, his rhetoric, he was just a man of the earth, a man of the soil.

He was just a regular guy. And he used this vivid imagery of a plumb line. The Bible says in Amos 7, for example, thus He showed me, behold, the Lord stood on a wall made with a plumb line, with a plumb line in His hand.

And the Lord said to me, Amos, what do you see? And I said, a plumb line. And then the Lord said, behold, I am setting a plumb line in the midst of my people, Israel.

Well, Amos was warning the people of the northern kingdom that God has a righteous standard by which He will judge His people. And a plumb line, as many people know, is just a string with a weight attached to one end. And when the string is held in such a way that the weight dangles freely, eventually it comes to a halt with an exact vertical line. So, carpenters use those plumb lines today to keep their works exactly straight in line. And in essence, the plumb line applies God's exact law of gravity to right angles. So, it never changes.

It doesn't move with the wishes or whims of the carpenter. It remains true always. And Jesus is God's plumb line. He came down from heaven in our midst. He didn't just set a standard by meeting the righteous demands of the law.

He is the standard. He is our plumb line. And so, into our moral failures and shortcomings, what Amos is telling us is, Christ comes to show us God's plumb line, not weighted by the law, but weighted by grace.

And He says to us today, I'm the plumb line. I alone measured up to the perfect standard of God, but by grace, through faith in me alone, you can stand in my righteousness. So, when God tests you with His plumb line, instead of condemning you, He can receive you faultless before His throne. So, Amos was just showing us that God has a righteous standard and it's Jesus Christ.

Well, we can't talk about all of these, but I'm choosing some of the ones that, well, they're from books that people may not even have found yet in the Old Testament, depending on how long they've been walking with the Lord. And I want to jump over to the Book of Nahum because the picture of Jesus in the Book of Nahum is He is our stronghold in the day of trouble. And we could use a little exposition on that during these challenging days in which we live.

Oh, for sure. And, you know, all of our listeners better get to know Nahum because they may meet him in heaven and he's going to say, what did you think about my book? And I think we ought to be able to be able to give him an answer. So, Nahum, you know, he said the Lord is good. He's a stronghold in the day of trouble and he knows those who trust in Him. So, Nahum, as you know, was the prophet who prophesied the fall of Nineveh, the Assyrian capital.

But in the midst of the doom and gloom of his book, there arises a reminder that God's a good God and he knows who is His. And Nahum reveals that Jesus is our stronghold, our safe haven. You know, in biblical times, kings had their strongholds. You know, I know thousands of people, David, have traveled with you to Israel. They've seen the Herodians south of Bethlehem.

They've seen Masada and been up on Masada. These were strongholds where people could go in time of trouble and find refuge. And in the days of King David, we find David fleeing to those strongholds. In fact, he said in the Psalms, the Lord is a stronghold for the oppressed and a stronghold in times of trouble. And so, Jesus told us that He was positioned in His Father. He said, when He left, before He left, the night before the crucifixion, He said, at that day, you'll know that I'm in My Father and you're in Me and I'm in you. Now, if Jesus is positioned in the Father and I'm in Him and He's in me, if I'm in Him and He's in me, He's taking care of the inside of me and the outside of me.

And nothing can get to me that doesn't have to come through God the Father and God the Son. So, Jesus is that stronghold in days like this that we can find our refuge and our rest and flee to Him. Yeah, we actually shelter in Him, don't we? There are Psalms that talk about the sheltering God and everybody's talking about sheltering during all these days we've been through, some probably still doing it more or less.

But it's wonderful to know that you have the strength of the stronghold and you can trust in Him and especially in the day of trouble. Hey, we don't want to be partial to the Old Testament, so let me grab one from the New Testament. The book of Titus talks about Jesus is our blessed hope. Absolutely.

You know what? This is the theme of David Jeremiah's ministry, for example, and David, what I'm concerned about today is I find very few people talking about our blessed hope, which is, for all of our listeners to be reminded, it's His glorious appearing when our Lord Jesus comes. And that's what it says in Titus.

It says Jesus is our blessed hope, His glorious appearing. You know, those early believers, they had witnessed the resurrection. They had witnessed the ascension.

They had seen the miracle of His ascent from the Mount of Olives as He was ascended from that mountain. He said He was going to come in like manner as they saw Him leave. And so they lived for that moment. And in their hearts and minds, it was imminent.

He was coming back at any moment, and they were just not just ready for His return. They were consumed with that. They had a word that constantly escaped their lips.

Maranatha, the Lord is coming. They greeted each other with that word. When they were martyred, they went to their martyr's death with that word escaping their lips.

And then the days turned into months, and the months turned into years, and the years to decades, the decades to centuries. And so many believers today have lost that anticipation of His blessed hope, our glorious appearing. And there's so many signs today.

You and I both love Israel. What an incredible sign, the regathering of the people that's used to Israel is. So many other signs and wonders that tell us that the return of our Lord is still imminent. Well, you know what I discovered as a pastor, OS, is that during these recent days when a lot of the things that we have taken for granted have been taken from us, and we got rid of a lot of the trinkets and toys for a period of time, many of God's people have been drawn back to a realization of the reality of Jesus Christ. We've had more people come to Christ during the pandemic than ever in any period in my life. And we've been doing it over the internet and now back outdoors in services. But when people realize how frail life is as they come to enjoy it, then they begin to realize if you don't have your life connected to something more powerful than that, you're not ready for what we talked about a few moments ago, the day of trouble.

So, I think people are being drawn back, and that's a good reminder from Titus that he is our blessed hope. Hey, let me ask you about how the book is put together. You devoted a certain number of pages to each book.

Tell us how you came about doing that. Well, we try to keep these books, the code series, as you know, and as your listeners who receive them know, they're beautiful leather-bound editions, gift books, devotionals, and so they're limited to a certain number of pages, 200 and some odd pages. So, I have just a limited number of words I can use in each chapter. So, it takes me three, four, five, six months to do a code book with all the research and the outlining, but it's one of the joys of my life. And like you, I've been preaching for decades. And David, you know, back there when I started pastoring almost 50 years ago, I prepared every message with a full manuscript, Greek word studies, documented where I got illustrations and everything. So, I've got thousands of full manuscripts in my piles, and so it's a great resource that I can go back and get from.

Well, I did the same thing. People ask me how I have written so many books, and you don't write a book in a period of time, you write a book in your life. Isn't that the truth? That is a great way to put it, and it's true. And one of the things about having studied the Bible all these years that's so wonderful is when you're studying one thing, God brings things you've studied before back to your mind, and your mind is kind of like a little computer.

And if you made input into the computer, you've got something to work with, unfortunately. So many guys, you and I know, they don't study the Bible, and so everything that they do has to be fresh right then because they don't have anything in their computer. I don't know how to say it any other way, but I'm so glad that these books have become available because I think they will strengthen believers, but let's ask this question. What if you gave the Bible code to an unbeliever?

How does that work? Right, and that's what I've designed them for. And you know, that's the reason they've sold so many copies because they sell each other. Somebody gets the Bible code, and then they want the Joshua code, the 52 scriptures every believer should know, the Jesus code, 52 questions every believer should answer. And so they're just great, unoffensive tools to give to someone, and they're beautifully bound so that you're giving a beautiful gift to someone when you do it, and that's one of the secrets of it.

And we're so grateful to you and your listeners for helping us get this word out. Well, it is a beautiful book, in fact. It's one of the few books you'll ever see. I find that as a writer, publishers are trying to find less and less expensive ways to present your material and save every dollar or every dime.

I'm not really sure where that all goes. I know it doesn't come to me, but the thing about this book that's really cool is the cover is padded. You know, when you see this book and you touch it, you feel the depth of the cover, and it's beautiful. It's got beautiful embossed words on the front, and each chapter is, you just look at it, you know, I can read this. You can read it in just a few minutes.

Read one every day, and when you get done, you won't remember all of them, but you'll remember many of them, and this is kind of a book that it can be read over and over again. And when you're done reading it, you can give it to someone else. Oh, this has been a great gift to the body of Christ.

I want you to know that. I think God's going to use it to open up the Old Testament to a lot of people who feel like maybe the Old Testament is for seminary scholars, and it doesn't have anything to do with their everyday faith. And I'll tell you what, finding Jesus in every book doesn't take very long.

You just have to read it, and you'll discover, I remember you and I both know how W.A. Criswell used to preach that scarlet message where he would start in the Old Testament. Right, scarlet thread through the Bible. Yeah, and it went forever. I think you had to have a lot of stamina to go to that sermon because it lasted for four hours or something like that, but he preached Jesus Christ from Genesis 1 to the end of the book of Revelation. Yeah, he did it on the New Year's Eve one night.

Yep, I remember that, and that's what you've done, but thank you for not doing it in four hours. I appreciate that very much. Well, let me just say, since you brought up Dr. Criswell, he loved David Jeremiah. He was like a father to me, and it was my joy to be his successor there at First Baptist Dallas, but he loved David Jeremiah. And David is a minute of personal privilege.

Let me just say, I tell people everywhere this, so I'm not just saying it because we're on this program. If I had one verse of scripture to identify who I think David Jeremiah is, I'd say what Asaph the psalmist said of King David in Psalm 78, 72, that he led his people with the integrity of his heart and the skillfulness of his hands. And I don't know, David, anybody that more manifests that verse, excellence and skillfulness of hand and rightly dividing the word of truth, and just having a life of integrity has been such a blessing to so many of us. We see so many people mess up in ministry, and you just, you're that plumb line, David, for all of us in ministry, and we thank God for you. What I know, O.S., is what we all know is, you can't take one day for granted that you've done all of these things all these years, and so you're now not vulnerable anymore.

The Bible says, let him who thinks he stands take care lest he fall. And I've just written a book myself, and one of the last chapters is on finishing, how important it is to finish and finish well. I was really interested to find out that a study was done at Fuller Seminary several years back of all of the Bible characters that have two or three lines about them, and less than 30 percent of the Bible characters finished well.

Isn't that amazing? Yeah, and so my goal is to finish well. I know that's your goal too, and who is the old Southern Baptist evangelist, Vance Havner? He used to preach a sermon, I heard it one time, he said, Lord God, get me home before dark. I think that should be all of our prayer. Isn't that the truth? And you know the amazing thing about those characters and their greatest temptations came later in life after they've been so successful.

In the last third of their life. And so while I'm grateful that God has protected me and kept me from harm and allowed my testimony to be strong, I realize that I have to be every day aware that the enemy would do anything in his power to destroy the influence that God has given to me. You do the same for you, and so hey, O.S., thank you so much for being with us. We're thankful for the opportunity to promote your book and the message of the book, and I know guys are going to use it.

We'll talk to you soon. And we close this interview with gratitude to O.S. Hawkins, our good friend, and also with the hope that you'll get a copy of this book.

I know it will be a blessing to you. And tomorrow we will get started with our study of the book of Mark and the series entitled In Search of the Savior. We're going to study the last part of Mark's gospel, and tomorrow we began the study with a lesson entitled Who is Jesus? Who is Jesus to you? Who really is Jesus? Tomorrow right here on Turning Point.

Thank you for listening. Now when you do, be sure to ask for your copy of O.S. Hawkins' new book, The Bible Code, finding Jesus in every book in the Bible.

It's yours for a gift of any amount. You can also purchase the Jeremiah Study Bible in the English Standard Version, the New International Version, and the New King James Version, filled with helpful notes and articles by Dr. Jeremiah. Visit davidjeremiah.org forward slash radio for details. I'm Gary Hoogfleet. Join us tomorrow as we begin the series In Search of the Savior. That's here on Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah. Thanks for taking time to listen to this audio on demand from Vision Christian Media. To find out more about us, go to vision.org.au.