What Will Happen After Roe Is Overturned?

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As we look forward to Roe v. Wade being overturned, what will happen next in America? It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. We are living in major times of upheaval, major historic times, times the likes of which have not been seen before in terms of the pushback that is coming in our culture right now. What lies ahead? Hey friends, this is The Line of Fire.

This is Michael Brown. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you'd like to weigh in on the subject, if you have your own viewpoint about the overturning of Roe v. Wade and what to expect next in America, or concerns you have, give me a call. 866-34-TRUTH. 866-348-7884. If you think it's a bad thing that Roe is about to be overturned, according to everything that we know, if you think that abortion in certain cases is a good and kind and compassionate and right thing, or even a Christian thing, you can call in too. You'll get a chance to talk. 866-34-TRUTH. Or, if you just have a random question you want to talk to me about, you want to call in to follow up on a show we had last week or before, I'll get to random calls probably later in the show.

But now's a good time to call if you'd like to talk with me. By the way, our friends, Skillet, you hear their music in and out of every show. They are in Europe right now, and I tweeted, or I messaged John late last night, just wondering how things are going in Europe, because he's told me that they often have even more favor in even larger crowds in Europe than in America. And he sent me a message today, and boy, it's just this massive crowd in Austria. I mean, I don't know how many multiplied thousands. It was a big crowd, and of course they're going to hear the Gospel from our brother there, so pray that God will keep them safe and use them mightily.

All right. There was talk earlier today that the Supreme Court might be releasing their decision. We expect it one way or another in June, and there was expectation it could happen today.

Thus far, it has not. But there is the imminent feeling that Roe v. Wade is about to be overturned. Now, if you read polls, and the polls say most Americans oppose the overturning of Roe v. Wade, most Americans actually don't know what it means.

Why do I say that? Because other polls or follow-up questions have indicated this. When your average American hears the Supreme Court's about to overturn Roe v. Wade, what they understand is the Supreme Court is about to ban abortion nationwide. I mean, after all, it legalized abortion nationwide. It overruled state laws, so now it's going to ban it nationwide. That's not accurate. That would be wonderful if that was the case, but that's not accurate. Roe v. Wade will simply push things back to the states.

That's what will happen. So, last estimates I saw, 26 states had pro-life bills. Those bills now would have the power to stand, because there'd be nothing stopping them from being overturned. In the past, heartbeat bills that were passed, other pro-life bills that were passed, even if they were signed into law by the governor, they'd immediately get appealed, so the houses of Congress in each state would pass them, they'd get signed into law by the governor, then they'd get challenged, there'd be appeals, and ultimately, if it gets to the Supreme Court, well, it's going to bounce back because of Roe. So, now that the imminent overturning of Roe is at hand, what does that mean?

It means that things will go back to the states. So, for example, the strong pro-life bill in Texas or Missouri, that would be allowed to stand, or Oklahoma, there'd be less challenge to it. On the flip side, the horrible, radical pro-abortion bills in states like New York or Virginia or California, those would stand because all Roe did was nationalize things, and now we go back to the states. So, what can we expect with the overturning of Roe v. Wade?

One thing is, you will see a clearer and clearer separation by state in America, that you will have pro-life states and you will have pro-abortion states. Now, people get upset with me and say, no one's pro-abortion. This is called pro-choice. That's what it is, pro-choice. Well, number one, if you go to a Planned Parenthood, it's anything but pro-choice. They want you to choose abortion.

That's what they're doing, and they're making a lot of money doing it. And you can talk to Christians who used to work at Planned Parenthood, maybe before they knew the Lord or when they weren't strong in the Lord, and they'll tell you the pressure they were under. They'll tell you the push that there was to abort more and more babies. You can talk to those that would sit with people when they came in.

They didn't say, okay, well, let's look at everything. Let's get an ultrasound. Let's consider the fact that it's a baby in the womb.

Maybe you want to consider adoption. Maybe you'd like the address of a pregnancy crisis center. No, this was a matter of, okay, let's help you get an abortion. So it's not a matter of really, truly being pro-choice.

But let's put that part aside. If you're pro-choice, at the very least, you're saying, okay, this is not, you don't want to be labeled pro-abortion. You say, no, I'm not pro-abortion. I'm just pro-choice. Remember the old Clinton adage, which has long since passed in the Democrat Party, that abortion should be safe, legal and rare. Okay, so if that was your viewpoint, so you stand against, in almost all cases, late-term abortion. You might have something with this terribly handicapped child and it's not going to live a day and why would it suffer so much?

You might come up with some argument. But otherwise, I'm assuming that you're against late-term abortion. And I'm assuming that you're against some woman who's eight and a half months pregnant and just starts to have an emotional breakdown. I can't, I can't have another kid. Three kids. I can't have another kid.

I just can't do it. Okay, so you'd be saying no, no abortion then. Give the baby up for adoption because the baby's fully viable. So you're not, quote, pro-abortion.

Well, these states are. These states have said right up to the last minute before the woman delivers and it's a perfectly viable baby. If it's determined that she's not emotionally ready or just says, I can't do it, I can't have another child, I'm going to have a breakdown or whatever the excuse is that she could have an abortion. I mean, there's no possible justification for that, especially when there are so many waiting to adopt. Not only that, you're, you're, you're also saying that in some of these states, say Maryland has this, there's debate, is it possible in Maryland law, California law, where they can actually be infanticide?

There's debate of what the law actually says. But as I've read it and studied it and read what others have said about it, it even seems that the baby couldn't get care after, survives an abortion after birth, or you could even decide after birth to, to commit infanticide. So these are pro-abortion bills.

Remember in New York when they passed the legislation, everybody clapped to celebrate it. Yeah, we can kill a baby right until the very last minute. So this is pro-abortion. So you're going to have a more and more clear distinction between the states, a pro-life state versus a pro-abortion state. And you may have people that move from one state to another based on that, or at least travel to a pro-abortion state to get an abortion, but some may move to a pro-life state.

Say, hey, I don't like living in a state that's passed these radical laws. That's one thing. Again, this is what I'm saying I think is self-evident to everyone, but I just want to lay it out in advance. You can expect to see increased violence and anger because that is ultimately what is behind much of the pro-abortion movement. Oh, I understand the compassionate arguments. I've written articles about it.

I've talked about it. I could make the case for the 12 year old girl that's raped by her 17 year old brother and now is pregnant. Come on, who couldn't make a case for abortion in that case, except for the fact that it's a baby in the womb and that the baby now gets punished for the crimes of the brother. But of course you could make a case for that or a child that according to everything you know is going to be born with terrible disabilities and may have massive medical bills and it could just demolish the family, the bills, the pressure, the constant care, watching the child suffer, put the child out of their misery. Again, the same argument could be made once that child is born and you see for sure it has all those problems, but yet we wouldn't think of putting that child to death. Maybe in the future we'll hear more horrific things like that as the society loses its mind more and more, but otherwise no one is going to possibly give an argument for that. But why not? Because it's a baby in the womb, same way.

So I understand the compassionate arguments. The fact of the matter is there is an angry spirit. There is a Jezebelic spirit, the same demonic spirits that worked through Queen Jezebel 3,000 years ago at work again now, full of anger and violence and intimidation. I believe it's three pregnancy crisis centers that have been firebombed so far. You can expect to see a lot more of that.

Pregnancy crisis centers are where women are offered alternatives to abortion and connected with people that will help them have their baby or give the baby up for adoption. You can expect to see more violence, more extreme protest, more of the ugliness of the spirit revealed. Just like in the hearings for Judge Kavanaugh, there were people literally not just pounding on the Supreme Court doors but scratching them with their fingernails. You cannot get him.

No, no, you cannot appoint him. So expect to see more anger, more violence. Expect to see the real spirit behind this, which is ultimately a spirit of death. Expect to see that more and more. And then you can also expect to see more polarizing in elections over these issues, although there are many who believe that there's been so much push for so many years to keep abortion legal and there's been so much outrage appealed to that people don't have as much rage, that there's not that much rage to appeal to. And I feel fairly confident, obviously I'm just sitting here sharing my heart and whatever wisdom I feel I have in this, praying, looking at things, but I feel fairly confident that if the economy continues to tank the way it is, come the November elections, the main thing on the minds of most Americans will be their pocketbook.

The failing economy, gas prices, food prices, other issues. I think that's going to be on the average American's mind more than the overturning of Roe, just to give you my honest opinion. The other thing that we could see, if a state would align itself with the purposes of God, not just regarding abortion, but regarding family, regarding racial justice, regarding caring for the poor, if a state would really get these things right, I believe that God would put a very evident smile on that state. I mean, you're seeing it just that the principles of certain things work and certain don't. So the whole daily wire staff of 100 something, they moved from California to Tennessee because it was too oppressive in California and much more free and more bang for your buck for quality of life in Tennessee.

They moved and almost everybody moved when they made the move. You see, those kinds of things happening. And I wonder, and I would expect to see God would just put a stamp saying, I'm with you in the preservation of life. Let's just be holistic that we're not just standing for life here, but indifferent on other issues there.

No, let us, let us be holistically sharing the heart of God for life, for justice, for those things that are dear to him, caring for the needy. We stand there. I believe God will smile and say, I'm with this state. I'm smiling on you.

I believe we'll see a difference. All right, we'll be right back. Eight six six three four truth. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling eight six six three four truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks again, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Don't forget to visit vitaminmission.com. Just talking to a colleague who told me how his immune system was really helped using the immune blast, the immune supplements by Dr. Stanley. I use them as well. So vitaminmission.com.

Be sure to use the Dr. Brown code and get your discount there. Eight six six three four eight seven eight eight four. In a moment, I'm going to go over to my latest article about the European Union Parliament condemning America for overturning Roe. So obviously they're expecting that this is about to happen. I'm going to go over to that article.

Some very interesting things happening in Europe that I think we should take a look at. First, we go to the phones, starting with Karen in Saratoga Springs, Utah. Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you. Hi. Hey. I I just want to say, Dr. Brown, I I've listened to you for a while and I have never wanted to call in. But today I had to. When you're talking about abortion, I'm so excited to just what's going on.

It's a miracle to me. I grew up in a polygamous community and of course, we never really talked about sex. So when I my mother left and I we basically escaped when I was 15, I got into a really bad situation with a guy and he took me to Planned Parenthood and Planned Planned Parenthood didn't. I mean, I was 17 years old and they I I thought it was something like to preserve life and it talked about Planned Parenthood.

The very name of it deceived me. Yeah. I was kind of like but he took me there to get the morning after appeal. He was he was 10 years older than me. And I was, of course, wanting to protect my baby. And so I talked to if I was pregnant, but I talked to him and I said, What if I'm pregnant? What if and they just they just downplayed everything. And they're like, even if you it's kind of impossible that you would be.

But even if you were it's just a glob of tissue. My experience was really a rough one with them because they just didn't support me emotionally. And so after it happened for years, I say 20 or 30 years I suffered with depression. And I didn't realize why until I I heard a program on on abortion and they said even getting the morning after appeal can cause severe depression.

Because of, you know, you always have a thought that you could have killed your child. I ended up getting married in polygamy, though, going back to it and and finally escaping after 50 years in polygamy. And there's so many stories when I was in polygamy that happened with abortion.

There's so much corruption and sexual perversion in polygamy. And one of the things that happened was one of the man the man had been molesting his children. And so when his daughter married, she actually was molesting her children and got pregnant from her son. And they, of course, went and got an abortion. Another incident was one of my my friends got pregnant and got an abortion. And because of the guilt and shame that came down on her for that, because it's not a Christian community, it's like a polygamous cult.

Yeah. So there was so much guilt and shame. She committed suicide. And then another story was that one of the leader's sons got his sister pregnant and they aborted. So they teach, like don't get an abortion.

But then when it comes down to it, they don't protect or preserve life. Even in those hard situations, right? I'd like to ask you what, what could we how could we like, talk to people about these kind of things with sanctity of life? And how do you even if it's a terrible situation, how can we speak truth into our citizens of America or the nation? Karen, thank you so much for calling in and sharing this.

And it's very rare we'll hear from someone with a background like yours. We've heard from many other women who have said they had an abortion. Even they were very liberal. They were as left as you could come as pro abortions.

You could come. They even had several abortions. And yet everyone has said they grieved over it, agonized over it. And years later was still suffering for it. So what you shared here is is equally extraordinary except with the other ingredient of polygamy.

So, Karen, the first thing is I believe we must speak as plainly as we can that Americans understand that it's a baby and the woman you don't take the life of an innocent child. With that, for many, that's going to bring to the surface all kinds of pain, all kinds of regret, self condemnation, in some cases trying to cover it, there'll be a mask of anger. And that's why we must share with this at the same time the gospel of Jesus, that God knows the depth of all human sin. Every one of us is eternally guilty in his sight. But his son paid for every sin we ever committed, including the sin of abortion, including the sin of polygamy, including the sin of child abuse, as horrific as those things are, he paid for every one and there is mercy and grace and forgiveness at the cross.

Of course, where crimes have been committed, those must be reported and dealt with in a secular way as well, but in God's sight there can be complete forgiveness. So we have to flush up the guilt and the pain and then let it be washed all away with the blood of Jesus. Otherwise, we'll never really set people free and they'll go on with these struggles. And Karen, it reminds me of this one other point, which is that, and I was about to get to this on the broadcast, that with Roe being overturned, in a sense it's just the beginning for us to get our hands dirty and busy, getting to work changing hearts and changing minds. In other words, this is wonderful to see this lid lifted off the states so that we can go back to pro-life legislation and hopefully even improve on better and better pro-life legislation.

At the same time, we can't just make it us and them and we've got the enemies out there. We've got to try to win them to the Lord, we've got to try to change their hearts so that they become pro-life as well, because that's the only way that America as a whole can change. Wow, I love that. I love, I'm going to go back to what you said about me being a sin, because I was born, raised in it, brainwashed, and always thought it was the holy and celestial law. And that's how they get you to stay in it for so long, even when my mom left. And so it's actually a miracle that people escape, because they think they're serving God. And I now, like God's now called me, and I actually speak on a show called Polygamy, What Love Is This. I'm occasionally a co-host, and if people want to really hear of the under bellies of polygamy and how people, it's breaking free the chains and setting people free and people are coming to Christ. And it's so exciting what he's done in my life, and now I'm speaking all over the nation. People invite me to their churches and just telling my story, and I'm so pro-life and so pro-Jesus. It's like, I just had to come in and... Yeah, you're full of life, Karen. So, polygamy, what love is this? People go there, I'm sure you deal with arguments. Well, it was in the Old Testament.

Of course, it was clearly never God's ideal, and you always have the negative examples. So listen, Karen, we have about a minute and a half before the break. The whole picture you get with the reality TV shows and Big Love and My Five Wives, whatever the things are, you're saying it's not so wonderful being a polygamous wife, huh? Oh, amen.

It's a complete lie. And the truth coming out with Christine Brown, the Brown family, they actually were from the same group I was from, and now Christine has left him, and the truth is, the man has all the power and the women have faith. We leave with nothing but the hope that there's a better tomorrow. That's the hope that there's...and I found that in Jesus.

That hope that I found in Jesus, the love, and He filled me with such love and such healing power, like you talked about, and I suffered with such depression for so many years because of the sin in my life, and I didn't know how to find that. But all these shows, they make it look so beautiful. It is not beautiful. It's sin. It's living in sin, and it brings rivalry, contention, jealousies that God never intended us to be tempted with or go through. Yeah.

It's only natural to think that would be the case. Hey, Karen, we will do our best to get your call amplified to others. May the Lord be with you and use you to help set many women and men free as well and to save the lives of many babies too.

Thank you for calling. What an amazing story. How deep does God reach to pull us out as deep as He needs to? Whatever the situation, whatever the cult, whatever the bondage, He can do the same for you. If you'll call out to Him, He will save. He will hear. He will deliver. All right, friends, we will be right back.

We're going to look at some really disturbing trends in Europe, and they're eye-opening for us here in America too. 866-3-4-Truth, if you have a call. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-3-4-Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the Line of Fire. So, I was speaking a few different locations the last couple of weekends, and I asked folks, how many get my emails? It was a small amount. These are folks who've heard me preach a number of times.

Some have bought my books, and it was a small amount. So, that means a lot of the resources we're putting out, you don't know about. That as we're dealing with things going on in this society all around us, stuff that you're dealing with, you're frustrated because, who can you listen to on the news, and that's saying it rightly, and this one's not a believer, or the believers aren't speaking up. Well, we're doing it, part of our calling to be your voice for more sanity and spiritual clarity.

So, take a moment, go to AskDrBrown.org, A-S-K-D-R Brown.org. Go there, sign up for our emails, and you say, well, what happens when I do? First, you get a mini-ebook, a free book, on how to pray for America.

You'll get that. Second, you'll hear back from us more about my testimony from LSD to PhD, more about what our ministry is about, and the different ways we can serve you. You say, am I going to get like a fundraising letter every week?

No, of course not. You'll get a letter, an email, with our latest articles, another email with our latest videos, and if there's a special announcement, a new resource being released or something like that, or we're announcing an Israel trip, you get informed about that. And then maybe every few months, we might say, hey, here's what we're doing, here's how you can participate in it. All right, so, we're here to serve you. AskDrBrown.org.

Get our emails today. Okay, I wrote an article Saturday. The European Parliament condemns itself by condemning the Supreme Court's expected overturning of Roe. The European Parliament condemns itself by condemning the Supreme Court's expected overturning of Roe. So, the European Parliament voted, this was last week they voted, and the vote was 364 to 154 with 37 abstentions, reminding the United States that it was, quote, vital to uphold Roe v. Wade. First question, I don't remember us asking the European nations for their opinion about our decision as a sovereign nation. They even condemned individual states that passed pro-life bills. I don't remember that we sent a message over to Europe and said, dear European lawmakers and leaders, would you kindly tell us what you think about our decision or Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe? I don't remember that. In fact, there was a tweet sent out by a right-wing German leader, so parliamentary member Christine Anderson. She said, the USA is no longer a colony ruled from Europe. Didn't you know that? Thank you.

That is correct. Another MP, this was from Croatia, Socialist MP or MEP, so a member of the European Parliament, the draft opinion of the Supreme Court of the United States is a shock and a nightmare. Now, here's what's really interesting. Europe is becoming increasingly post-Christian. You can go to countries that even will have Christian names, or the majority of the people registered with the state church, and only a small percentage go to church regularly, and then, especially among the younger people, less and less ever-decreasing proportion of the people identifying as having any religious affiliation. So Europe is becoming increasingly post-Christian. No surprise that Europe is getting more and more dogmatic about abortion. Now, obviously, there were those that voted against this resolution either thinking it wasn't up to the European Parliament to say it or because they were pro-life. That's the clear minority.

Now, here's something that's also interesting. European population is in decline. Now, many nations in the world are in decline with population, like Japan, for example. America without immigration would be in decline in terms of population. So what do you mean in decline?

Well, the formula is this. For every woman between the ages of 18 and 44, so the most common childbearing years, she needs to have 2.1 children. Obviously, a woman is not going to have 0.1 child, but on average, 2.1 children for society to sustain itself. If you dip below that because of disease, people dying of calamity, war, different things, just the hardships of life, reproduction, you will have a society that cannot sustain itself because there's not sufficient income, there's not sufficient numbers of workers to sustain the older generation and then to multiply for a newer generation. So that's why in different parts of the world, the populations are in decline. That's why in countries like Russia and Japan, there have been these encouragements to get married or if you're married, have kids, have more kids, take a day off and go out with your spouse and get pregnant.

This is all over. Mark Stein wrote about it some years ago just in terms of the population decline. Many countries, Greece, Italy, Spain, many countries around the world. Now, in the Muslim world, it's the reverse. Even though some of the numbers are lower than they were, the numbers are still much, much higher.

The religious Jewish world, much, much higher. Many parts of conservative Christian world, Latin America, Africa, where the birth rates are higher among Christians. China's one-child policy has been a disaster. They're having to fix that, especially when so many Chinese preferred a boy to a girl. So either we commit infanticide when the girl was born, just kill her because they want a boy, they can only have one or they had a boy, pregnant again just to bore it, right?

So that's been a horror now because you have an imbalance. You have too many men and not enough women. That creates problems.

But now it's not sustainable long term. Well, there's something else happening in Europe. And to me, there has to be a direct connection here. I mean, I don't see how there is not a direct connection. So in my article, I referred to a 2017 article by Darryl Delamade, which asked the question, do childless leaders mean the death of Europe? Now, he basically downplayed the concerns. But I think the concerns point to something very, very real. So he wrote that the election this 2017, the election of Emmanuel Macron as the new French president now means that the leaders of the four European countries in the G7 biggest economies, Macron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, British Prime Minister Theresa May, Prime Minister then and Italian Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni are all childless.

I mean, it's it's really remarkable. Other prominent European leaders also have their children. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven, Luxembourg Prime Minister Xavier Betal, Scottish Prime First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. Does this mean anything? Yes, it means something. His thing was, look, these are the leaders people are electing. No one's talking about dictators taking over by force. That's not the issue. The issue is if you're in a culture which is increasingly childless, you're in a culture in which it's more and more common that couples choose never to have children. We're not talking about people who want to have children who can't and wish they could have children, do everything they can and they cry themselves to sleep sometimes.

The moms, the prospective moms and dads because they can't have kids and they want to so desperately. This is the exact opposite. In most all these cases, it's simply choosing not to. It's just an extra, it's the kind of a commodity.

For some, for others, it's not necessary. It's, you know, it's or maybe one kid and that's it. This is becoming increasingly common. It's been going on for years and years and it will create a world crisis ultimately. And even now, say the elderly in Japan, because that's one of the oldest countries in the world, say the exact opposite of Gaza Strip or Yemen, which is overwhelmingly young. So in Japan, you've got these robots that are helping keep the company of elderly and nursing homes because you don't have enough people. You don't have enough kids there supporting the parents.

You don't have enough of an infrastructure to do it. So this is just an indication of childlessness. And when you have never had a child, it's highly unlikely that you fully appreciate the significance of having a child. All of you that I'm speaking to that have children, think of how it impacted your life. Think of the moms carrying a baby and giving birth. The dads seeing this happen and now being their mom and dad to nurture the child and all the joys and pains of raising a child and seeing your kids grow and what they accomplish and the kids, they have kids and it's life, it's life, it's reproduction, it's glorious, it's beautiful, it's wonderful.

But you've got all these people that cannot fully appreciate that because they never had kids of their own. He continued in his article, those calling attention to it seem to think that it does mean something. George Weigel writing this week, this is 2017, in the First Things website talks of Catholic light and Europe's demographic suicide.

He says earlier this month James McPherson headlined his commentary on the Washington Examiner, Emmanuel Macron and the Baron Elite of a Changing Continent. Late last month even before Macron's victory, Britain Sunday Times carried a long book excerpt by Douglas Murray with the title, Europe Signs Its Own Death Warrant. And now adding to that, Europe has the gall to condemn America for being pro-life.

Now, last point I want to make. Why is the apparent imminent overturning of Roe v. Wade of such tremendous significance? Because laws have gone in one direction for years now. And to go in the direction of abortion, the outrageous ruling of Roe v. Wade without a constitutional basis, and then the tragic affirming of that and even taking it further 19 years later with the Casey case, and that further entrenching things in our society. To have that turned back is something you just don't see happen.

It is absolutely not the precedent. So to go in this wrong direction, then push back, friends, what did we tell you at the beginning of this year? What was our declaration that the year 2022 is the year for taking back ground? It is the year of increasing pushback. The year of taking back ground. Let this be the year that not only is Roe overturned, but that the pro-life movement floods hearts, minds, so that people embrace once again a culture of life.

So people once again understand that's a baby in the womb and that baby's life is precious in God's sight and should be in ours as well. All right, we'll be right back with more of your calls 866-34-TRUTH. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. 866-34-TRUTH to join in. Let's go to Deborah in Maple Grove, Minnesota.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, thank you so much, Dr. Brown. I've called in before and talked about my own abortion, but kind of a different angle I'd like to talk about because you're talking about people who have been victim of child abuse and things like that, and of course those are really sensitive issues. I've also suffered sexual abuse in my childhood from the age 10 to 13, and I guess my comment about abortion regarding that is thankfully in my own situation I was not impregnated, but all I can say is the only thing that would have made what I went through worse is if I had to have been forced to have an abortion. I can imagine if I had been impregnated and then have to go through the trauma of an abortion on top of the sexual abuse, and I guess the point I want to make is people think that having an abortion makes that rape go away or that incest go away, or it doesn't. If that had happened, or if I would have gotten pregnant and then forced to an abortion, taking the child away wouldn't have made the sexual abuse have not happened. All right, so Deborah, let me press in and ask you this, all right? So I'm asking as a male, okay, and I'm only asking for your own opinion, right?

So you can't speak for everyone, but you can speak to this a million times more than I can speak to it. I was never abused sexually, I was never abused in any way as a child, and I'm a man, right? So I'm in a totally different world here, but as I would think about it, right, trying to put myself in the person's shoes. Here's what I would think, okay, let's say a girl 13 years old gets raped by an 18-year-old boy in the neighborhood, and she's old enough now, she's pregnant. So if you force her to have the child, this would be the argument, that now she has to have the stigma of that, it can't be ignored that she was raped because she gets pregnant, she's with other kids in middle school, and she's pregnant, she has to live with that, and then as she gives birth to the baby, it affects the rest of her life. If somehow her parents help her keep the baby, I mean, in the future, if someone's gonna marry her, you know, 19 years old, she's got a six-year-old kid already, or she's gonna give the baby up for adoption and think for the rest of her life, what happened to my baby? And even just affecting her body changes, she's gonna go through at 13 that were not intended, wouldn't it be so much better to just end it? And then that's it, the shame is behind her, the stigma's behind her, she doesn't have to go on with the pregnancy and carrying the baby and everybody knowing about it and on and on. That to me would seem to be a strong argument that someone could give on behalf of abortion. So please weigh in from your perspective. Yeah, and I certainly understand all of that, what you just said, and again, the situations like that with rape, with children getting impregnated through incest or rape.

Again, such a horrific situation. But hang on, we just, Debra, for some reason, we just lost you there. And boy, do I want to get to hear what you have to say. Let's see if you are, are you back with us, Debra? I'm there, something weird happened. See if you can call back in and we'll try to get you right back on the air. Boy, talk about wanting to hear what Debra had to say. And we'll do our best to get her back on, but her phone somehow lost its signal or battery dropped or something happened, bad zone. In any case, Debra, if you're listening, please try to call back so we can hear the rest of what you have to say. Maybe you're listening, you say, Dr. Brown, I can respond.

I went through something like this, or I have someone close to me that's gone through something like this. Be glad to hear from you, but let's just see if we're getting Debra back on the line here. Hopefully we are. I imagine, why don't I just stay with religion? Why don't I just focus on that and not get into political or cultural issues? And I said, well, the gospel intersects with morality, morality intersects with the culture. That's the reality. That's the world in which we live. God is concerned about many issues about life in this world.

In fact, Jacob James one says that true religion—apologies. On the studio end, my profound apologies to everyone listening or watching you. You're not even hearing us now, but others, if you're watching, I imagine that the response would be simply this. Debra, you can try one more time to reach out. Looks like the studio has fixed their connection issue, so my apologies, but you can try to reach out one more time. Here we go.

Let's see if this is going to work. And if you have been traumatized by an abortion in your life and the trauma is with you to this day, let me say once again that God's grace is sufficient and that Jesus died for that sin as well as every other sin. And there is mercy for you. All right, one more time. I so apologize for these connection issues, Debra. Back to you. Please go ahead.

Okay, are you able to hear me right now? Yes, we are. We're all good.

Thank you. Okay. No, my response would be that even though as difficult and horrific as any of that would be with a child getting pregnant under any circumstance or a rape, what we need is the body of Christ to come around that person. In a perfect world, we would. But again, what you are leaving that person with, it doesn't make the rape go away. It doesn't make the fact that she was pregnant go away. It doesn't make the shame and the pain go away. So in a perfect world, if we could rally around and be the body of Christ and help that person through just unbelievable trauma. But again, to add trauma to trauma doesn't erase the original trauma. And I guess that's just my point, just another thing to think about a different angle. Yeah. So Debra, let me ask this. If you could talk to that woman, right?

So talk to someone that was in your shoes that tragically did get impregnated. So everything about that is bad. How could you get them to? And the person that did it to them is a monster for it for what they did, whether it was a father abusing a daughter or teenage kid raping the girl. Either way, that person is the epitome of evil for what they did. Do you want to carry that person's baby in your womb? What if you if you had a couple of minutes to talk with that person, what would you tell them?

Yeah, horrific. I mean, first of all, all you would do is wrap your arms around them and weep with them and weep with them and weep with them. I mean, absolutely the gut wrenching, you know, but the thing is, even if that child was only in their womb for a moment or a week, and then was aborted or whatever, it still was there. And you still have to deal with those issues no matter what.

By the grace of God, I was able to my sisters were able to forgive our molester that took time, no one would expect anyone to do that right off the bat. But I'm telling you, the biggest thing rather than trying to tell them or counsel the person is to listen, to weep with them to say, I will walk through this insanity with you, and we will make it through together. Had I had I had something like that, even in the other situation, when I was an adult, and I had an abortion, I'm telling you, if even one person I called three people, and I said, I'm thinking about having an abortion, I just don't know what else to do. And all three of them said, I think that would be the best thing to do. When all I wanted was just for one of them to say, No, I'll help you. We can make it through this.

I wanted somebody to come alongside of me and help and no one did. So again, it's about the body of Christ becoming the body of Christ. It's about loving.

It's about, hey, my God, I don't know how to walk through this, but I'll walk through it with you. And I guess that's all I can say. But again, I know we're talking about in a perfect world.

Right. No, no, but listen, it's up to us to do our best to come around people. And in most cases, there certainly are believers that can come around a person and do just what you're saying. Be there for them. Love on them. Let them cry on your shoulder.

Let them share the pain and just be there patiently, praying for them, supporting them, encouraging them. And then at a certain point, there's still the miracle of life. And those that have carried their babies will still say, well, there is a baby there. And that child, you know, every human being is born of imperfect parents. You know, that's the reality.

And many were not planned. And yet God planned it in terms of God's the one who ultimately gives life. Deborah, thank you for calling in and sharing your heart so honestly. And please hear what you said. If you know someone contemplating an abortion, be there as a voice of life. Be there saying, hey, we can get through this together. And you will never regret bringing that baby into the world if we do this the right way, whether it's yours to raise or someone else's to raise.

But you'll always regret terminating that baby's life in the womb. Let us build a culture of life, one life at a time. Hey, Deborah, thank you for calling and persevering through these connection issues to get on the line of fire today. Much appreciated. One more reminder, friend, let us serve you. Let us equip you. Let us help you. Go to askdrbrown.org, askdrbrown.org. Set up for emails today and you'll be blessed and you will be a blessing to others as we infuse you with faith and truth and courage so you may stand strong. Back with you tomorrow. Your program powered by the Truth Network.