Dr. Frank Turek Weighs in on Correct But Not Politically Correct

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Well, he wrote a book called Correct, but Not Politically Correct, and his world turned upside down after that. It's time for The Line of Fire, with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, we are going to have a great eye-opening, edifying interview today.

I won't be taking calls. Sit back and enjoy the broadcast with my guest, friend and colleague, Dr. Frank Turek. We've known each other a good number of years now, participated together in apologetics conferences, debates, different things like that, and he wrote a book a few years back when the nation was debating the question of same-sex, quote, marriage. He wrote a little book, Correct, Not Politically Correct, and as I said at the outset, his whole world turned upside down after that, and he's now updated the book, not just to talk about same-sex, quote, marriage, but also about transgenderism. So you are going to find this really, really interesting. Frank's gone all over the country and done lectures on college campuses.

I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. That's his best-known book, together with Dr. Norman Geisler. So he's regularly dealing with young people, interacting. I'll have you on the air today, Frank. Thanks for joining us. Dr. Brown, can you hear me? Loud and clear, sir.

Loud and clear. Oh, great. Just cut out there for just a second. It's always a pleasure to be on with you, Mike, and as you say, we've known each other for many years. We just live on opposite sides of Charlotte. It's great seeing you when I do, and you do great work every day.

I'm so privileged to be on Line of Fire. Oh, well, thanks, man. We'll plug all of the great resources at CrossExamined.org. Frank, the thing that I found remarkable is you went through a pretty dramatic upheaval in your life when this book came out, but you've remained steady, the same as always, which is a testimony to God's work in your life. So I knew the apologetic side of what you did.

I didn't know that you also had a career in the secular world. So tell us what you were doing there, and then what happened when Correct, Not Politically Correct came out. Well, the first edition came out in 2008, and at the time I was working at a number of organizations giving lectures and training on leadership, sales, customer service, that kind of thing, and I was working for two organizations quite prominently. One was Cisco, the computer people out there in San Jose, California. The other was Bank of America here in Charlotte, and after I'd written this book, Correct, Not Politically Correct, about three years after that, I was working at Cisco doing some leadership training, and to make a really long story short, I got fired because they found I had written this book even though it had nothing to do with what I was teaching at Cisco. The HR director fired me the same day. Someone who was in the class had Googled my name and figured out that I had written this book, and despite the fact that he said my leadership course was excellent, he said I can't work there because I don't believe in same-sex marriage. Now keep in mind, Mike, this was five years before the Supreme Court imposed same-sex marriage on the entire nation judicially, but they said I couldn't work there, and so at the time, the head of Cisco was a man by the name of John Chambers, and he was on the Elect McCain Commission in California in 2008.

Now, as you know, Senator John McCain ran against Obama in that year for the presidency, and McCain was a Navy veteran, as was I, and so I wrote John Chambers, and I said, I'm a veteran of the United States Navy. I've been working in your company for many years doing leadership training, and here's what happened to me. I was fired because I don't believe in same-sex marriage, and I said, are you aware that Senator McCain holds the same position that I do on same-sex marriage?

Are you qualified to be working at Cisco? Well, Mike, I got a phone call the next day from an attorney, and he said, what do you want? And I said, I don't want anything other than you call the dogs off other Christians.

Look, I'm a vendor. You can fire me for you don't like the color of my shirt, but don't claim you're inclusive, tolerant, and diverse if you're going to fire people and not tolerate them and exclude them because they have diverse views. And so that's essentially what happened. Now, in fact, Frank, in your teaching, in your seminar, part of it dealt with diversity, didn't it, and working with different people in the workplace. And how were your lectures and your classes rated? Did people like them?

Oh, they were rated very highly. In fact, the guy that told the HR director I'd written the book said to her the class was excellent, but since I don't believe in same-sex marriage, I couldn't work at Cisco. And then Bank of America fired me a couple of weeks later for the same reason. Now, when I had conversations, Mike, with the HR director at Cisco, I said to her, you know, this is after I was fired, I said, you claim to be inclusive, tolerant, and diverse. Can you tell me why I was not included, not tolerated for holding a diverse view? She couldn't answer the question.

Of course. She couldn't even define what inclusion, tolerance, and diversity meant, because as you know, Mike, inclusion, tolerance, and diversity doesn't mean what we think it means to corporate elites. To corporate elites, it means you must see every moral and political issue our way, because if you don't, we're going to exclude you, we're going to hurt you. Exactly. Yeah, it's doublespeak. It's classic doublespeak. Each word means the opposite of what it seems to mean. And folks, so you understand this clearly, Frank Turek did not say a syllable about the subject in any of his presentations.

They were workplace-friendly, they were for any environment, they were widely received. It's that someone found out that he wrote this book separately, and just because he held to those views, he was excluded. And this, friends, now is a long time ago, but that's why we have been shouting at the top of our lungs, not angry at gay people, not mad at gay people, just saying, hey, this is what's coming. Now, as for your book, correct, not politically correct, it's filled with Bible verses and Bible references, right? It's mainly a Bible book bashing everyone, telling them they have to believe the Bible, correct?

Absolutely not. There's not a Bible verse in it, Mike, you know? It's actually a book from natural law and the medical evidence that says both same-sex marriage and transgenderism are not good for individuals and they're not good for society. So this is making a natural law case, it's not even quoting the Bible. Right, and of course I knew that and set it up in that way.

So that's the thing on top of it. These were views that you were simply arguing based on natural law and the flourishing of society and saying redefining marriage is not helpful, now you've updated it to add in transgender issues. That's all you were saying, so even holding that view aside from a religious viewpoint got you excluded.

Now, of course, everything flows from our faith in Scripture, but you made this argument based on natural law. As you reprinted this with a new edition, you've been surprised by the interest in the book, haven't you? Yeah, it's really sold very well.

In fact, Amazon ran out of it for a while. Again, the book's called Correct Not Politically Correct About Same-Sex Marriage and Transgenderism, because the new section on transgenderism, Mike, has taken the country by storm, so maybe we can talk a little bit about that. Oh, absolutely. Let's do this first, though.

Let's just cover this base. So, marriage has been redefined nationally, it's been imposed, as you said, on the nation by a decision that the Supreme Court really had no right to make. But if people say so, what's the big deal? You're screaming about this, you guys, you're fundamentalist, you're warning, the sky's falling, you're chicken little, it's the end of the world.

Come on! Love is love, love wins, everything's fine, all your warnings are meaningless. How would you respond to that? I would respond, the biggest problem with same-sex marriage is that it makes marriage genderless. It makes marriage about between just two people of any gender. If that's the case, that means marriage has nothing to do with children. And if marriage is not the institution that protects children, what institution does protect children? The problem is, and you know this, Mike, the law's a great teacher. If we start teaching people that marriage is just about coupling, regardless of gender, we are separating the institution of marriage from children, and once we do that, then children are not going to be protected, and just look around our country.

This is happening everywhere. Children are the people that are actually suffering the most, and it really wasn't brought on by the LGBTQ community, Mike, it was brought on by Christians who bought into the romance view of marriage, which says marriage is just about romantic feelings. Well, if it's just about romantic feelings, then why not two men or two women? If marriage has nothing to do with children, then it's not really marriage. Marriage is, the reason the government's involved in marriage is to perpetuate and stabilize society. Not to recognize that John loves Mary or Bill loves Steve. It's to perpetuate and stabilize society, and the only relationship that does that consistently and pro creatively is a man and a woman coming together.

Not two men, not two women, not five men, not five women, but a man and a woman coming together. Now, we know that some relationships don't do that, man-woman relationships, they're sterile, but they still represent to the general public a procreative relationship, and they also keep the man off the street from impregnating women out of wedlock, so even marriages that are sterile, man-woman relationships still have a benefit to society. You've commented about how many married men do you find in gangs.

Could you expand on that? Well, yeah. You know, marriage also civilizes men. You know, one of the biggest problems is men who are not civilized by marriage tend to be more apt to commit crimes, but how many married men do you know who are part of street gangs? I mean, what wife is going to put up with that?

Get in here! What are you doing out there wearing those stupid clothes? You're here to take care of me and the kids.

What are you doing out there? You know, I mean, that's what marriage does, it civilizes men. Yeah, so again, friends, the only reason that the government is involved in marriage is because of the social benefits that marriage conveys on society, so therefore the government conveys benefits on marriage.

You don't need to go to the government if you're dating somebody, if you're romantically attracted to someone, that, friends, is not the issue. So, these are big societal things, and the ripple effect is very, very real. The book Correct, Not Politically Correct, about same-sex marriage and transgenderism, and Dr. Turek's website is crossexamined.org.

He's got a leading podcast and all kinds of great videos and resources there. We're going to dive into the transgender issue, talk about that from the viewpoint of natural law, why these things matter, and then I also want to probe what you're seeing on college campuses, but I'm going to end here. We go to a break. I just saw on Newsweek, it's the daily debate, and it's two gay guys, one of them saying, transgender folks, they are an essential part of our community, and the other gay guy saying, no, this is destructive, it's hurting children, LGB needs to separate from TQI.

There is a fissure, there is a division taking place. We're going to come back and focus on the question of natural law, transgender issues, why we should care, the book by Frank Turek, Correct, Not Politically Correct. We will be right back after word from our co-sponsor Trivita. This is Michael Ellison, founder of Trivita Wellness. I'm always thrilled to offer a new product from Trivita that is science supported with equivalent doses per serving that follows the science. And that is true of our KSM 66 Ashwagandha with this protective process from farm to manufacturing plant. The KSM 66 has 24 published gold standard clinical trials in reducing stress, enhancing sleep, and increased vitality. In a recent Harris Poll, 87% of Americans feel stressed.

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So make sure you look for it in the email and read it, and then let us know how these things are working in your life. Hey, Frank, you knew me in my fat days. I loved the Lord then, but it's a whole lot better to be thin.

You've always been fit and healthy from your Navy days. The same-sex marriage issue is still an issue to us because we believe it's a wrong direction for the country. As much as we care for people and know that we seem hateful to them because we're not affirming their relationships, we care for what's best in God's sight and for the nation. In our minds, it's not a dead issue, but everybody agrees that the trans issue is everywhere we turn. We're talking for children, we're talking the Biden administration, we're talking sports, we're everywhere you turn.

This is in the news day and night. What aspects do you focus on in your book, correct, not politically correct, when it comes to the transgender issue? Well, let's go back to what you said just before the break, Mike, when you pointed out that there's a bit of a civil war in the LGBTQ community. And the reason for this is if the T's get their way, that there are no fixed genders, Mike, that means the L's, the G's, and the B's don't exist. Exactly. Because if there are no fixed genders, how can you be lesbian, gay, bisexual, even heterosexual? Exactly.

That's the problem. And here's one of the logical problems with transgenderism, which we point out in the book, correct, not politically correct. And that is, on one hand, the people who are advancing transgender ideology are saying there are no fixed genders, there's a multiplicity of genders. On the other hand, Mike, they have to unwittingly presuppose there are fixed genders.

Here's why. Because if I'm a man and I think I'm a woman, I have to have some idea what a man is and some idea what a woman is in order to know I have this mismatch between my psychology and my biology. Secondly, if I try and make the so-called transition, which is biologically impossible, you can change your mind, but you can't change your biology. Yet if I still try and do that, I have to have some idea what a man is and some idea what a woman is to say I want to become a woman. If I couldn't know what a man or a woman was, I couldn't even know I had gender dysphoria and I couldn't try and make the so-called transition.

So this is a completely contradictory movement. On one hand, it's trying to say there are multiple genders. On the other hand, they have to admit there are these two fixed genders. And I don't know if you saw Matt Walsh's What is a Woman?

documentary. You remember that one point in the documentary, he's interviewing this one woman academic and he says, what is a woman? And she says, well, I would know I'm not one. Now, if you just know basic logic, you can point out how ridiculous this is because for her to say I'm not a woman, A, she would have to know what a woman was and B, she would have to know what she was to know that she wasn't a woman. I mean, it would be like me saying I'm not an elephant.

When I say that, it presupposes I know what an elephant is and it presupposes I know what I am in order to say I'm not an elephant. So we've got to start teaching logic in our public school system, Mike, because if we don't, we're going to continue to get these inane ideological dead ends that actually hurt people. And the problem is, in public schools, we're teaching kids not how to think, but what to feel. And so we've got to start teaching logic. In fact, on our website, crossexamined.org, we're teaching this logic course called Train Your Brain. It starts in sixth to eighth graders for this very reason, Mike, that kids don't even know how to think anymore because we're teaching them what to feel rather than how to think.

All right. Just before we go any further, tell us again about Train Your Brain. This is crossexamined.org. What age range or school range is this for? Well, this is for the premium version where we actually get kids online and do live Q&A Zoom sessions with them. It's for sixth to eighth graders. We go fifth to ninth grade.

That's fine. But anybody can take the self-paced course. If you've never had a course in logic, how to think, how to pick out fallacies that are all over our culture, go to crossexamined.org. Click on online courses.

You'll see it there. Train Your Brain. Anybody of any age can take it, even though it's written for sixth to eighth graders. I don't know about you, Mike.

I like to read sixth to eighth grade books because that's the way I can really understand the concept. Yeah, really. So, again, if someone says to me, Dr. Brown, what is an elephant?

And I would say, I don't know because I'm not an elephant. Well, right. It's pretty clear that there's something missing there. So, that's the thing.

The emperor has had no clothes for so long. And now people are saying, let's just say your neighbor, he's got a son and the kid identifies as gay and he's got a boyfriend he really likes and your neighbor is like, my kid's a good kid. He's never liked girls. He likes boys. He's got the boys.

Nice. Why can't I bless their, you know? Okay, love is love, but that same neighbor didn't sign up for his daughter having to change in a locker room next to a naked boy or play on sports teams with her and get smashed in the head in a volleyball game because it's a guy playing against her. They didn't sign up for that or the endless gender pronouns.

You even have people who've been super hostile to people like you and me, like Piers Morgan or Bill Maher or others and they're speaking up about a lot of this because it's outrageous. I wrote an article responding to the well-known gay journalist Andrew Sullivan when he wrote an article called the homosexuals versus the queers and it's the same thing that the LGB has to separate from the T. And he said, critical queer theory is there is no such thing as human nature. He said, you go to gay dating apps and they're now like qualified because it's a man but it's actually a woman who's a man. He said lesbian bars are disappearing. And I wrote back saying, this is what you got.

This is the trajectory. Once you deviate from male, female, he created them and male and female are the key ingredients of marriage. You opened the door to this. I mean, I wrote out all the stuff that was going to happen and the queer thing happened to America 12 years ago. It was inevitable. And remember the early activists were here with queer, get used to it.

We've got two minutes before the break, but could you expand on that? Why this is an inevitable development once you deviate from the biblical norms? Well, if there are no, if there is no human nature and if there are no, if there is no truth as people say, of course, when people say there's no truth, you want to ask them, is that true? It's self-defeating, but if there are no human natures, if we can completely decide what we want to be, if I can decide to be an elephant or a giraffe or a woman, then you have to affirm me in that. That of course is madness. I mean, Mike, if your daughter claimed she was a mermaid, would you take her off the coast and drop her in the ocean? I mean, of course you wouldn't. You would say, honey, you know, your mind's playing tricks on you. You're not a mermaid. Let me get you some psychological help. You certainly wouldn't get her surgery to give her a fin.

You certainly wouldn't drop her in the ocean. Yet why do we do that when people want to cut off perfectly healthy sex organs? It's absolute madness, Mike, and if Christians don't start standing up against it, it's going to continue, and I'm kind of embarrassed that people like Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins and Douglas Murray and Dave Rubin, none of whom are Christians, some of them identify as gay, they're taking the lead on this and most pastors are silent. Yeah, you know, we had chatted the other day and you mentioned Doug Murray, Madness of the Crowds, and I realized I had not actually read the book just about it, so he identifies as gay.

I mean, it's almost prophetic insight into what's happening in the culture as a gay man looking on. I remember decades ago David Wilkerson saying that Time Magazine and Newsweek had more prophetic insight as to what was happening in America than many churches and pulpits, so friends, we've got to speak up for the sake of children. This is the worst, the most grotesque example of medical malpractice in our nation's history, and the church must lead the way as salt and light bringing about reformation, bringing about change. Loving everyone, reaching out, saying we'll help you where you are, that we've got to be the agents of change.

Friends, check out crossexamined.org, check out Signing Up Your Kids in this premium level class, and the book Correct, Not Politically Correct will be right back. Hey, friends, Dr. Michael Brown here. Do you remember when people thought I was crazy when I said it's not too late for America, that God can still do something in our country, that there is going to be a pushback, a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution? And do you remember when people thought that you were crazy because you felt the same way, because you believed what I was saying and already felt it in your heart? Well, friends, that pushback is here. The gospel-based moral and cultural revolution we've been talking about for 25 years is unfolding, and we are right in the thick of it, and the line of fire broadcast is divinely positioned for such a time as this. Friends, you would be so gratified and blessed as I hear, if you could hear what I hear, testimony after testimony as leaders, young people, old people, moms, dads, students, people from all backgrounds come up to me and say, Dr. Brown, you're providing a template for us. You're providing a blueprint for us. You're showing us how to do this, how to have hearts of compassion, backbones of steel.

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Call 800-538-5275, 800-538-5275, or online askdrbrown.org. Click on donate monthly support and let me welcome all of our new torchbearers. Thank you for holding our hands up and amplifying our voice to the nation. All right, Frank, you have the great privilege, something I'm so thrilled that you have. I mean, you're made for it. You're gifted for it.

You have the demeanor for it. And the doors have stayed open for you. It's very rare that I'm on a college campus. I'd be there often, but it's very rare. The doors have stayed open for you.

You are the man for the job. You're interacting with young people. Are their attitudes changing at all? Is the light going on for more of them? Is it just the J.K. Rollings and these others that we mentioned, the Richard Dawkins atheists and the lights going on for them?

Or is the light going on for more young people as well? Well, I think most of what I can see, Mike, is anecdotal because I don't have survey data, but when I go to a college and we try and do about, you know, 18 to 20 of them a year. We do get a lot of interest.

A lot of young people show up to ask questions and interact with the material. We do. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist where we present the evidence that truth exists. God exists. Miracles are possible. Jesus rose from the dead.

The Bible is true. And then we get a lot of questions and we get a lot of questions on morality. So these issues related to transgenderism come up and same sex marriage and homosexuality. In fact, if people go to the YouTube channel cross examined on YouTube, two words cross examine, you'll see about seventeen hundred videos up there. Many of them are like two or three minute Q&A videos from the college campus.

So if people want to see what goes on there, we they can because we stream everything we do and we video everything we do. So it's all up there. But yeah, we are seeing some interest. We've got a bunch coming up. We're going to be at Florida Atlantic University on September 12. We're going to be at Ohio State later this year. We're going to be at Auburn later this year. UNC Wilmington. All the details are on our Web site.

A couple of colleges in Missouri. We're going to be at University of Cincinnati November 2nd. There's a bunch of stuff coming up. It's all on our Web site.

Cross examined dot org. All right. So let's go back to your book. Correct.

Not politically correct. Since you do not quote scripture and it is your foundation, obviously that's where you start and everything in life. But because God is real, scripture is true. Therefore, these principles will work themselves out. Why should your average person care? Just going to work, raising a family, trying to live in a safe world. Maybe goes to church or synagogue here or there. But they're just trying to live their life, have a good life and take care of their kids and and make the world a little bit better place.

Why why should they care about the issues that you address and correct not politically correct? Well, let me just ask the question. If you knew there was a clinic down the street where Joseph Mengele was performing experiments on children, would you care as a Christian? Because that's how Chloe Cole, who at 15 years old had her breast removed, described her so-called transition surgery a couple of years later.

I think at this writing role right now, I think she's about 19 years old. And she was not only given, I think, puberty blockers, but as I say, had her breast removed. And she called it Nazi like experiments. And now she's suing her doctors, so-called doctors, for doing what they did to her. Because obviously at 15, she couldn't give informed consent. And the one bright spot in all this, Mike, is that overseas, over in the UK, most of the gender clinics are are shutting down in the other parts of Europe as well, because the lawsuits are now coming. They were five or 10 years ahead of America on this madness. And now people are starting to sue these gender clinics and they're seeing the writing on the wall, Mike. They are not going to be able to survive.

The lawsuit did come down. So thankfully these gender clinics are closing and they ought to close here. But look, corporate America is asking you to, you know, what are your pronouns and support this and support that. And I have some questions that you should ask people that try and force that on you. Maybe we can get into that. Yeah.

In fact, we'll go there in one moment. But yeah, the tragedy of this, I've read many of these accounts. I've written about the transitioners. When I talk about it publicly, I often break down reading their stories. She's like, how?

How? And there's like, I was an impressionable teen. You're the adult in the room.

You're the parents of the room. I mean, girls as young as 13 have had full mastectomies. Boys 10, 11 years old put on hormone blockers to stop the onset of puberty and now they're sterilized for life. What the 11 year old could possibly make any decision about that? Or parents, doctors.

It is monstrous. The Tavistock Clinic, as you mentioned, UK, which was the big gender clinic, shut down. And countries, very liberal, progressive countries like Sweden, Finland, they're saying we need to have a different approach here. Let's wait till they get through puberty and let's look at other things first.

And I was asked, Daily Wire asked me to write a bunch of articles last year starting with the phenomenon of sociological contagion, where something just spreads through a culture and then a follow up article was, OK, why are other nations, why are other nations pulling away from this and America is still pushing strong? Obviously, there's some people think this is how you save kids, this is how you save them from suicide. They're very wrong, but they believe it's best for others. It's got to be a matter of greed because there's a whole lot of money to be made, not just through the surgery, but lifetime prescriptions.

So that makes it all the more evil. OK, here you are. You're a college student. You're someone in the workplace.

You're asked to give your gender pronouns and play along with this very unfortunate game. What do you say, Frank? Well, I think you should ask some questions, Mike. I think you ought to first ask, do you consider yourself a tolerant person? And when the other person says, well, of course I'm tolerant, then you can say, well, if I have opinion different than yours, you'll tolerate it then, right? OK, so use their use their own principles in order to protect yourself. Secondly, you might want to ask, do you think it's proper to try and force someone to violate their conscience?

And I think most people will say, well, no, that wouldn't be right. And then I could say, well, great, then don't ask me to don't try and force me to violate mine because I can't lie to you. That's against my world view.

That's against my religion. It's against my conscience to lie to you. And you're asking me to lie to you.

And I love you enough to say I'm not going to lie to you. So you may want to ask some questions instead of making statements, because questions are easy to ask. They're hard to answer. And if you ask questions in the right way, you can get people to the position you want to get them to without making statements. Yeah. And especially if someone wants to consider themselves to be tolerant and they're against the fundamentalist imposition of other views on people.

Yeah, hopefully good response. Quick anecdote for you, Frank. A friend of mine has a daughter at college and she was working with a college newspaper. So the new recruits were coming in. She was one of them. And the professor said, OK, I want you to introduce yourselves and give your preferred gender pronouns. So she didn't feel right about doing that.

Her dad and I chatted about it, of course, reinforcing how she felt. So she went to the teacher very politely, went to the professor and said, I'm really not comfortable doing this and I'd like to be exempt from it. So he said, well, tell you what, then I will make it voluntary. There were three new kids coming in. He said, I'll make it voluntary instead of required. And he asked them and none of them gave the preferred gender pronouns. And he realized he had misread the room.

He made assumptions that they were all in on it when none of these kids were. So there's a lot going on. If just a few people will speak and act, the tide can really turn. So, Frank, why is it that more pastors don't speak out, more Christian leaders don't speak out?

What's holding us back? Well, I can only surmise, but I know that pastors, first of all, are overworked. But secondly, it's hard to be a pastor. But secondly, a lot of them are concerned about their congregations in the sense they don't want to lose them.

And you know as well as I do, Mike, if you start talking about controversial issues, some people are going to get up and walk out the door. But it turns out the truth of the matter is more people will walk in the door and they'll be fully devoted followers to Christ. In fact, our friend Tony Perkins has done the research on this and says, yeah, some people will leave, but the people that show up because you are taking a stand for truth are going to appreciate it and they're going to be fully devoted followers of Christ. And by the way, our job is not to be tax exempt. Our job is to be salt and light. Our job is not to build a big church. Our job is to make disciples and to do what's right and leave the results to God. So we're here to be shepherds and to try and keep the wolves away. And if we won't do that, then we're not really fulfilling our mission as pastors. So I urge pastors to speak out on these issues. You know what the answers are. You know what the truth is. And you've got to protect your flock. And they want to know the answers. Every survey shows that people in the congregation want the pastors to give them the truth rather than to skirt around it. Right.

And here's the other thing. Don't we want to be equipped to reach out and evangelize those who have different worldviews and different perspectives? Sure. Don't we want to equip our flocks to have love and compassion for those who differ? But at the same time, be able to make our case. And look, when you mention pastors being overworked, I know that God did not call me to be a pastor. And local congregations can be very thankful for that.

We'd have about three radical disciples, but that would be about it. And when I think of counseling endlessly and the needs that come up and all the children's programs oversee, it's a lot. It takes a certain calling. But that's why we put out the resources we do also. So friends, pastors, leaders, go to crossexamined.org. And you've got tons of resources. Maybe you don't quite know how to address something. Play a video or play a video series or go through the book, do a study together and correct, not politically correct.

The resources are there to help and to equip. One other question, though, about the young generation today. When you're on the campuses, we know increasingly young people, lonelier, more depressed, more suicidal, more stressed.

Are you seeing in the midst of the pain, COVID only exacerbated that, are you seeing greater openness to the Gospel? Yeah, I think people are more interested. But then again, there are also people more hostile, too, Mike.

So it gets more and more polarized. But of course, our job is to show people the Gospel, to preach the Gospel, to tell them about it, and lead the results to God. And a lot of times it's a long process, as you know, Mike.

Very few people, when they hear the Gospel the first time, just suddenly go, yeah, that's for me. It takes a while. Yep. All right, listen, I asked a big question with a break right here. We'll be right back. We've got a few more minutes with my dear friends, Dr. Frank Turek.

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Or go to Trivita.com and use promo code KSM66. Call 1-800-771-5584, 800-771-5584. This is how we rise up. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, I want to take just a few more minutes with my guest, Dr. Frank Turek, the website CrossExamined.org, the book Correct, Not Politically Correct about Same-Sex Marriage and Transgenderism.

Frank, help us with something just a little tidbit. You've got this whole class on train your brain, especially for sixth to eighth graders. What are, it's a whole class, it's detailed, interactive, but give us one or two tidbits of key things that parents can do to help their children learn to think logically and critically. One of the key things, Mike, is to teach them the law of non-contradiction.

Actually, they already know it, they just have to be reminded of it. The law of non-contradiction helps you identify false statements that are legion in our country. So if someone says there's no truth, that's actually a contradictory statement because they claim it's true that there's no truth.

Notice that? So when you can teach young people how to turn a claim on itself, if somebody says there's no truth, you ask them, is that true? If somebody says there are no absolutes, you might want to ask them, is that an absolute? If someone says all truth is relative, you might want to ask them, is that a relative truth? Notice it's an absolute truth claiming all truths are relative. If someone says all truth comes from science, you might say, does that truth come from science? No, of course it doesn't, it's a philosophical claim.

All truth can't come from science, it's built on philosophy. If somebody says you ought not judge, you might want to ask them, then why are you judging me for judging? Notice it's a judgment. And by the way, Jesus didn't say don't judge, he said judge not lest you be judged. By the same standard, you judge others, you'll be judged by that standard.

So before you try and take the speck out of your brother's eye, you hypocrite, which by the way is a judgment, take the log out of your own eye first, then you'll be better able to help your brother. So this is not a command not to judge, it's actually a command on how to judge. In fact, Jesus says in John 7 24, stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgment. So it would be impossible to make no judgments, everybody's got to make judgments, but we're not to make judgments in a hypocritical way, we're not to make judgments without good information, we're not to make judgments off the cuff, we're supposed to make judgments biblically, rightly, fairly, and that's what Jesus is saying.

Yeah, last question for you. As you talk about seeing greater openness but also greater hostility, what would you say are the greatest causes of that hostility that has risen up in so many young people? There are three major reasons today people reject Christianity, Mike. Morality, morality, and morality. In other words, they don't want to live by the biblical morality.

They want to do what they want to do sexually. This is why I always ask people on a college campus, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? Mike, I've had people at that microphone in front of hundreds of people say, no. How is that reasonable? How is that rational? You wouldn't believe something if it were true? Well, it's not a matter of reason.

It's not a matter of the head, it's a matter of the heart. They don't want it to be true. They don't want there to be a God.

Why? Because they want to be God of their own lives. They are not on a true quest, they're on a happiness quest. And they're just going to believe whatever they think is going to make them happy. Here's the problem. You can make yourself happy over the short term doing a lot of fun but selfish and sinful things, yet over the long term it's a disaster.

And Mike, everyone listening to us right now over 40 knows what we're talking about because many of us have tried it ourselves. If you want to get truth contentment, you've got to go straight through truth and Jesus is the truth. So always ask people, if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

If they hesitate or say no, it's probably a heart problem. They don't want to be held accountable to the moral standards of God. Yeah, well said and great question. And I've been thrilled to hear as you've been at some meetings that are more politically oriented but then you get to get up and give your presentation about the truth of God. So timely for such a time as this. And notice friends, even with the title correct, not politically correct, we haven't talked politics today.

That's a bit too volatile for the moment and we get us off topic with the presidential debates about to start but let's pray for gospel there. Everybody get the book correct, not politically correct by Frank Turek, the website crossexamined.org. Thanks for your time, man. Always appreciate it. God bless you, Mike. Thanks so much and support the line of fire, folks.

This guy's doing great work every day. Thank you. All right, God bless. See you. All right. What a great interview with Frank Turek. He's from New Jersey, I'm from New York.

Yeah, the rapid fire. We've done a couple of debates side by side against others which has been a real joy. Okay, I'm not going to take any calls just because there are only a few minutes left in the broadcast and I don't want to rush through things but let me step back as we are about to get into a really intense political season that could intensify from here until November 2024. In fact, if it doesn't intensify, that would be absolutely shocking. So, by all means, be informed, watch the debates if you're interested in, follow the candidates, what's going on. By all means, pray for God's will, for God's best. But I want to make an appeal.

I want to plead with you. Don't get caught up in election fever and don't get in the flesh. My appeal to you, don't get caught up in election fever and don't get in the flesh.

What do I mean? Okay, read in the polls what's happening with Trump. And this candidate, it doesn't do any good.

It doesn't help anything. Find out where the candidates stand so when it comes to primaries you can vote accordingly and when it comes to general elections you can vote accordingly. Pray for God's will, for God's best. Because remember, God's plan is not necessarily our plan. God's vision for what's best may be different than what we think is best. And one of my colleagues, when he's asked how he prays, he prays for God to do what will be best for the flourishing of the church and the fulfillment of the Great Commission. So, it may be that in God's will a candidate is put in that we don't really like and it ends up bringing revival in the church that brings an awakening to the society that brings about a massive change that couldn't have happened in other ways and then better politicians elected than we ever could have dreamt of.

So, we don't know. I've never once prayed for this one to get in or that one. I've wanted a candidate to get in, sometimes very passionately. I've voted accordingly. I've talked about issues but I've never prayed for this one to be elected or that one to be elected. The key thing is guard your heart.

If you get out, maybe there's a witch hunt against Trump and Biden's being protected or maybe you think, well Trump's messing things up, he's not participating in the debates. Step back. Worship the Lord.

Get alone with him. Worship, praise, spend time in his presence, meditate on his word, let calmness come. And don't get in the flesh. Don't get riled up and divide over politics and start ranting about this one, that one, and getting carnal and insulting and fleshly. We can step higher, friends.

We can step higher. I've said for many years we need hearts of compassion, backbones of steel. There's not a compromised bone in my body when it comes to standing for what's right. If I'm convinced something's right, I'm immovable by God's grace, my wife Nancy even more immovable.

It's nothing we ever consider. If something's right, you do it. If it's wrong, you don't do it.

But it may cost you everything. So? You may be physically attacked for it. So? You may lose support for it. So?

You may be rejected. So, whoever made that a factor. What's right is right. What's true is true.

You honor the Lord, use wisdom by all means. So, I'm not talking about being weak. I'm not talking about being wimpy. But some people think the only way you're strong is if you're spitting and screaming and yelling and cursing people and maligning people and nasty and that's carnal. That's not strength. That's carnality.

That's lack of self-control. Yeah, I mean, sometimes we're passionate. We yell and shout.

We preach or whatever. That's not saying that that's always carnal. What I'm saying is that's angry fleshly.

I don't know. I'm just burning with righteous indignation. Yeah, and you're also in the flesh. And you're also all emotional and worked up. And you don't have love for your enemies. Let them go to hell.

Right. You don't have love for your enemies. When I say you, I'm not pointing a finger at you. Grandma's sitting there praying like, no, I'm not pointing a finger at you.

I'm just saying those of us, those of us who get like that, we are in the flesh and we drive people away from Jesus. So my appeal again, once more, don't get caught up in election fever. Start ahead now. I am not paying attention to polls. I am not looking at every political news story. I'm keeping informed as I need to before the Lord is as a watchman, as your servant here on the air. I am being informed.

I'm being aware. I'm looking with interest, but I'm not getting caught up with the issues. I'm not getting caught up with the people, with the news. We can do better than have our broadcasts and our social media pages sound like gossip columns. We can do better. So don't get caught up with election fever.

The time you spend pouring into these things, spend in worship, spend in the word, spend in loving your family and being a blessing to your neighbor. And then don't get in the flesh, just riled, step back. God is God. God's bigger than this. God's bigger than this. We've survived volatile presidency after volatile presidency, and each time we're told this is the last election. Well, we're still here.

We're still here. God is God. Jesus is Lord. The word is true. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken, but the righteous will not be shaken. So I'm urging you, friends, let's do better. Let's do better in 2024 than we did in 2020. Be involved. Don't get seduced. Another program powered by the Truth Network.