What is the Christian’s Duty to God vs. Government? – Part 1

What is the Christian's duty to God versus government? That is the topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Worldview Radio Program, where the mission is to sharpen the Biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host.

We're able to broadcast on the radio station, website, or on the YouTube channel. You can find out more about the Christian worldview or Samaritan Ministries by calling our toll-free number 1-888-646-2233 or by visiting thechristianworldview.org. Persecution, imprisonment, and murder of Christians is nothing new. The Gospels recount the crucifixion of Christ, and the book of Acts chronicles the threats, beatings, jailings, and stonings of first-century Christians. Today is no different for believers in Communist China or North Korea, where Christians defy government edicts and gather secretly. In some Islamic countries, Christians are jailed and martyred for refusing to keep silent about the Gospel.

In countries like the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand that were founded on Christian values with guaranteed individual liberties, freedom of religion and speech, and so forth, the state has generally allowed citizens to pursue their faith as their conscience convicts them. That changed about a decade ago when the homosexual movement began prosecuting Christians for refusing to participate in so-called same-sex weddings. It was a shock when Christians lost their baking or photography business or refined for following biblical beliefs.

But of course, the God-haters wouldn't stop there. With COVID came a new opportunity to silence and persecute Christians as government mandated restrictions and closures of churches in the name of, quote, community health and safety. Most pastors and churches complied, but some like Grace Life Church in Edmonton, Alberta, where James coats pastors, they understood the biblical command for churches to, quote, not forsake our own assembling together.

That's from Hebrews 10 25. Alberta's governing authorities couldn't allow Grace Life to defy their order, and so Pastor James was arrested and imprisoned for what, you ask? For continuing to gather as a church in obedience to God's word. Pastor James Coates joins us today on the Christian worldview to explain what happened and to exhort Christians to obey God when government tries to usurp the authority that God has given to the church. Pastor James is the co-author of a new book entitled God versus Government, taking a biblical stand when Christ and compliance collide. This is our new featured resource that you can order for a gift of any amount to the Christian Real View. We'll tell you how you can get that today, but let's get straight to the interview with Pastor James Coates. James, thanks so much for coming on the Christian Real View today. Briefly tell us about your background and how you came to saving faith and why. Well, I'm from Toronto originally.

Grew up in a place called Scarborough, Ontario, which is basically not even a suburb, but really connected to Toronto proper. I grew up in a non-Christian home, lived a very typical, worldly, sinful lifestyle, and after university, with my conscience really testifying to me that the way that I was living was not right, at the behest of my mother, I took the Alpha course and was actually saved, strangely enough, in an Alpha course. It was the video Why Did Jesus Die that brought that about.

That was back in the fall of 2003. I've even gone back and listened to that video just to test the integrity of the gospel that's present in it, and it's there on a level that it's not, as far as I know, in that course anymore. That's not the kind of course that we would run in our local church now, but the Lord used that to deliver me from my sin. From there, I began to grow, and over time, since the desire to go into the ministry, I was working at Dell Computer Corporation at the time, and just came to the place of having an overwhelming desire to be trained to handle the scriptures. The Lord used John MacArthur's ministry in Grace to You to solidify the Master's Seminary as the place to do that, to be trained. I was at the Master's Seminary in 2007, all the way till 2010, and then in July 2010, I began to pastor the church that I'm in now. I was the associate pastor initially for the first two and a half years, but I was the regular preaching pastor at that time, and I've been at Grace Life ever since. So this is going to be coming up on the completion of 12 years of ministry at Grace Life Church. James Coates joins us today here on the Christian Real View pastors Grace Life Church just near Edmonton in Alberta in Canada. Now, I want to read from your book that you co-authored with Nathan Buzanitz. He teaches historical theology at the Master's Seminary where you attended.

This is an excellent book. We're making it available to listeners so relevant right now titled God versus Government, basically trying to understand in this changing world we're living in what is a Christian's duty to God and government. On page 16 of the book it says, of all the shutdowns and bans because of COVID on in-person gatherings, the most detrimental targeted churches. Whatever danger the virus posed to the well-being of our citizens, the closure of the church in America posed a greater threat.

The ramifications became evident within just a few months as civil unrest erupted with no spiritual influence to counter it. And that was a reference to what happened right here in Minneapolis with the the death of George Floyd at the hands of police officers and the riots and the violence and the country just burning over the summer of 2020. Interesting link between what was taking place with COVID and then not going to church and then the the order of society breaking down. What was your church wrestling with at this particular time in 2020 when COVID hit and your province, Alberta, ordered shutdowns or low attendance percentage of capacities at churches?

Yeah, we got down to as low as 15 which is basically enough for your music team and your sound crew. We were at 15 for quite some time so there was effectively no gathering is what that comes down to and when everything first broke there was a healthy degree of suspicion around the virus itself and the severity of it and when it came time to wrestling through compliance we reluctantly complied initially. We looked at the situation, we looked at our ignorance with respect to the virus, we came to realize how ignorant we were even with respect to our legal system, our charter of rights and freedoms, the the recourse that we have available to us as a church and we looked at the the landscape of responses from many churches around North America, churches that we highly respect including John MacArthur's church and the going rate was compliance at that time and so we thought we would reluctantly comply but even in the early going, maybe even the first Sunday of compliance you could hear from the words that I expressed during the announcements that there was a reluctance we were already feeling the tension between Romans 13 and Hebrews 10 25 and so I addressed that and was already using the language in March of 2020 that we've got to take some time to figure out when the government is reaching beyond its jurisdiction here and is bringing us to the point where we're going to need to obey God not men and and so that tension was there right away. I remember and I even expressed this in the book getting an email where I was essentially rebuked for not complying with more joy and that there should be a joy as we seek to serve our community by shutting down our services and you know seeking to love our neighbor in that way so the reluctance was evident for sure and even some of our people early on even before we were open they were ready I mean they were already prepared to open thought we should be opening prior to the time that we did but we just waited for some information to roll in with respect to the virus got a little more informed with respect to our legal system and so it wasn't until June 2020 that we opened our doors and began to invite people to make their own decision with respect to social distancing masking and and attendance. James Coates with us today on the Christian real view the co-author of God in Government an excellent book this is a most relevant book for our day and age you can get it for a donation of any amount to the Christian real view just get in contact with us the usual ways when you started to meet together then as a church in June of 2020 you're not a gigantic church you think you said you had about 350 people attending around that time so you're a mid-sized church let's say but this got the attention of the Alberta Health Services fast forward toward the end of that year maybe in the fall of that year and you detail this it's it's a riveting story by the way to read about this in the book the Alberta Health Services begin to come to your church so what was that like to have them and then eventually the the police from Alberta come to your church well with AHS coming to our church and that's our Alberta Health Services our our health governing body when they began coming to our church and we began receiving some complaints there was certainly some some unrest and consternation felt for me as as that was taking place but things certainly escalated once the RCMP was also attending our church I remember driving into our parking lot with the RCMP parked in our our parking lot and just you know that was on the way into a Sunday morning service and and just all that that that you feel in that particular moment as things were heating up and they didn't really heat up until end of November 2020 and then into December I think it was December 13th the first time we had the RCMP in our services and so I'm basically beginning the service and the announcements acknowledging the fact that the RCMP are present and our people certainly knew at that point in time anyway and was that was incorporating the gospel message into the announcements to ensure that they as well as the AHS representative heard the gospel we would start our service announcements would take place then we begin to sing they would have all the information they need to deem us non-compliant and they would leave so once they would leave there was we could relax a little bit as it were but but it was a challenge it added a whole new element to preaching and everything else as far as preparation and all that you would go through in a week to be ready for Sunday it was a whole new level of intensity that I was experiencing and those those weeks and I it goes all the way until February when I was in when I was in prison that was the most intense period of time I would say in my entire life I mean my adrenal glands took a beating in that time and it was but the Lord was faithful and he gave us everything we needed to persevere.

The RCMP is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. James Coates with us today here on the Christian Real View the co-author of God and Government. Now we're skipping through the story pretty quickly because we want we have a lot to cover today but basically this came to a head in you know mid to late December 2020 and you delivered a message you described this in the book but just briefly tell us about this I think it may have been one of the final messages you gave before you were arrested and you said you pounded the pulpit and this is something you had never done before tell us about that message and just what your story is about message and just what your your state of mind was at that time well yeah and to clarify that's December 20th that sermon's called the time has come it's one of the chapters in the book and it's been reworked for the purpose of the book that was not the sermon that I preached prior to my imprisonment the one prior to my imprisonment was called directing government to its duty in God's providence the timing of everything and the way that sermon came together on February 14th that was a sermon that that he effectively just dropped out of heaven into my lap and I preached it and I'm a cessationist for the record so I'm not trying to rewrite the script on the spiritual gifts and and the ceasing of prophecy but it was a sermon where an excerpt from it ended up on the six o'clock news on Monday evening and and it was like the perfect excerpt I mean it it was an excerpt that just built up to the declaration that Jesus Christ is the head of the church and and when we heard that amidst all of the concern revolving around the attention we were now getting from not just the governing authorities but but the media and the community and everything else that put wind in our sails when we heard that we thought wow I mean this is this is why we get out of bed in the morning my friend Tim Stevens who was also arrested when that sermon dropped he said you're now the most hated man in Alberta and so that kind of gives you an idea of kind of where that was at it's interesting too with that title because I I couldn't get away from that title the time has come and even when I wrote the book my portion of the book I I I couldn't tell you why I titled it that and yet I now know why the time has come in the sense that it's now time for the church to stand firm and go toe to toe with the governing authorities that's why that sermon is in place the we've been anticipating that time in North America when the the government will begin to reach inside the walls of the church and and step into it's a jurisdiction that's not theirs and that time has come it's now time for the church to resist and oppose a government overreach okay we need to pause for a moment you are listening to the Christian worldview I'm David Wheaton you can support this radio ministry by calling 1-888-646-2233 visiting thechristianworldview.org or writing to box 401 Excelsior Minnesota 55331 Pastor James Coates was arrested and sent to prison a couple of weeks ago in Canada what did he do he held a church service and it isn't the government's responsibility to protect us from a virus what's their responsibility to protect our God-given rights two days after that sermon Pastor James Coates was arrested and imprisoned he has now co-authored an important book titled God versus Government taking a biblical stand when Christ and compliance collide God versus Government is 208 pages soft cover and retails for $17.99 you can order a copy for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to box 401 Excelsior Minnesota 55331 that's 1-888-646-2233 or thechristianworldview.org David Wheaton here host of the Christian worldview radio program listeners are often surprised to learn that we as a ministry pay to broadcast on the radio station website or app on which you are listening today that expense is recouped through listeners like you making a donation or becoming a Christian worldview partner our aim is to have each broadcast outlet fully supported by the listeners of that outlet if you would like to help us in our mission to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ go to thechristianworldview.org and click on donate you can also call toll-free 1-888-646-2233 or write to box 401 Excelsior Minnesota 55331 specify how you listen as that helps us decide whether to continue on a given outlet and be sure to select one of our resources as a thank you for your support and welcome back to the Christian worldview I'm David Wheaton visit our website thechristianworldview.org where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print letter you can order resources for adults and children and support the ministry now back to the interview James Coates is our guest today on the Christian worldview a Canadian pastor who was imprisoned for keeping his church open during the COVID lockdowns in Canada he's also the co-author of her book God and Government Just Released that we are offering this is an excellent book that will I think help frame what many of us have been really pondering over the last couple years when civil liberties and government crackdowns on on our faith and so forth are taking place we're offering for donation of any amount to the Christian real view just get in contact with us the usual ways call us toll free 1-888-646-2233 or go to our website thechristianworldview.org let's go forward now into February 2021 you gave that last message which you just referenced and you knew now they had been back the warnings have been coming now you knew you're going to be arrested what was the the realization like that you would be arrested and then not only arrested but be imprisoned for continuing to keep your church open well yeah and I was arrested twice the first time was the seventh of February and that took place after a service in our office where I was effectively arrested and released excuse me in the same moment then on the 14th I knew that was going to be problematic because in my first arrest I was given an undertaking and that undertaking demanded that I comply with the Public Health Act which of course we couldn't do and and so I refused to sign that undertaking and that's what's written the officer wrote refused to sign and so I went into the next Sunday knowing that even though I did not sign that undertaking which meant that I didn't agree to it it was still nevertheless binding so when we had that service on the 14th it was just sort of wait and see you know after service what the fallout is going to be from that we had word they wanted me to turn myself in on Tuesday Monday was a holiday so that was kind of them because that meant I wouldn't be sitting in a jail cell Sunday and Monday waiting for the justice of the peace to open up on Tuesday so I turned myself in on Tuesday and I was brought before the JP and was given a condition of release that again required that I comply with the Public Health Act which would mean no longer gathering and having to go down to capacity limits and mask and social distance and all of that and we had already resolved that we could not comply with the public health orders because to do that would be to surrender the headship of Christ over his church to Caesar and so I couldn't sign that condition so I and that was not difficult to do because I the conviction was already there but when I refused to sign it and and now had to embrace the reality of what that would mean I mean that was certainly challenging because without without being released they have to detain you and and and and hold you in custody and that means going to the Edmonton Remand Center which is effectively a maximum security prison so so because I would not sign my condition I ended up at a maximum security prison when I got there they were sending officers to me throughout that time in the early going to help me understand so you realize you do not need to be here correct you can just sign your condition and and walk out the door you just say the word and we'll get your papers and you can sign and leave and I'm like yes I understand that well why aren't you doing that why are you staying well I can't I can't sign that condition because it would violate my conscience the condition requires that I not do the thing that I'm called to do and so it was really interesting to watch them process that and try and appreciate what was going on and they would it would get back to me they would say you know he's really polite and and you know but they could see that I was immovable and and resolved and I give God the glory for that so it was a challenging time but the Lord was certainly with me even while I was in prison and and really proved what Psalm 139 teaches us that whether I make my bed in heaven or in shul the Lord is there I can't flee from his presence all the same gracious providence that I've come to know in the Christian life was there with me in in prison and that's just a real comfort I think to all of us to know that no matter what we go through as God is sovereign over every detail of it he is going to be there to care for us and and and to strengthen us in the midst that is so encouraging I remember at the time we actually covered this on the program and it was just so inspiring to so many people to have a pastor standing up for the truth of God's word over the the the mandates the commands of of government so thank you for doing that James and James Coates is our guest today here on the Christian real view the co-author of a book we're featuring right now God and government I want to play a sound bite for you from someone you know well that took place during an interview done when you were in prison and then I'll ask you to follow up with a comment this is from the Tucker Carlson program on Fox News Pastor James Coates was arrested and sent to prison a couple of weeks ago in Canada what did he do he held a church service his wife Erin said he had a very tough time in jail he was placed in a two-week quarantine only allowed to leave the cell twice for 15 minutes each time it's a it's a shocking story we spoke to Erin Coates earlier about her husband's case here's what she told us this coach thanks very much for coming on it's hard to believe it's shocking really that your husband is in jail first how's he doing I don't even really know what to say how is he doing um he is uh he's a shepherd he's a he's a bible teacher he's a theologian he's not able to shepherd the people that he loves he's not able to uh challenge his mind he's not able to serve in the way that he loves to serve people so this is this is hard on him so you grew up in the country do you recognize it now no I don't this is definitely not the nation that I grew up in what do you think what do you think happened well I think there's been a we're like a boiling frog for a while I think our freedoms have just been slowly stripped from us and and and so slowly over time that we didn't even realize it and so when something like a health order is put in place that takes away your freedoms it's not shocking to people and it really should be shocking to people that there is a pastor in jail right now who's given his life to sacrifice and love other people to worship god that that's not shocking to a lot of people and it really should be we are on a dangerous road right now and I think because we've just been in the pot for so long boiling that people aren't really realizing the danger that we're facing as a nation throughout the United States we've seen Christian ministers harassed because they are Christian ministers and therefore disobedient they serve a higher power you haven't seen this happen to people who run abortion clinics or strip bars or marijuana dispensaries do you believe that's in this country do you believe your husband was singled out because he's a Christian pastor well I have to believe that the enemy is singling him out we have a real enemy who really hates the Lord Jesus Christ and really hates the blood body that he purchased on the cross and has given new life to yes we have an absolute real enemy and he uses people to target the ministers of God we know that through scripture we know that through church history and so I really believe that they are being targeted in our country I think a lot of people watching this who would have maybe dismissed what you just said a year ago are now maybe taking it a little bit more seriously I appreciate your coming on your husband is blessed to have a wife like you thank you James when you hear that interview of your your wife and it's incredibly touching you know what it must have been like for you to be in jail as your wife is on national media not only defending you and the the principle of individual liberties but also talking about the Lord Jesus Christ what are your thoughts today looking back at that time knowing you were in prison at the time and this was taking place well it takes me right back to that moment and I I feel a lot of what I was feeling at that time what what the Lord did and giving my wife that opportunity on on Tucker Carlson to do is significant and and the way he enabled her to speak in that moment as well was powerful and really that that interview was significant we think in moving the dial of our government to affect my release because that interview was recorded about a week ahead of an agreement that was put in place for my release and and then it was then televised again a week or so after it was recorded and we really think that it was that interview because there was a lot of rumblings that that was going to be coming out it was that interview that made our government go we got to do something the longer that I was in prison the more pressure that was being placed upon our governing authorities to move and I think I had proven that I was not going to sign that condition and they tried to make an example of me and it effectively backfired it was a miscalculation on their part and it it may in the end be part of what brings to conclusion the political career of our premier here in Alberta I think the book is compelling for a lot of reasons I think it can be a real encouragement because you get to see the way the Lord ministered to me at various points throughout that time and and I think it can be preparatory for the the challenges that we're all going to face as we move forward into the future. James Coates with us today the pastor of Grace Life Church in Edmonton Alberta he was the one that was imprisoned for keeping his church open during the COVID shutdowns back in 2020-2021. Tell us about the the strongest impression of your time in prison and then maybe and then maybe one example of of the opportunities God was giving you to to share the gospel with with either guards or inmates. Well I was in jail for 35 days again I think the care the Lord gave to me while I was there is what stands out the most the question you've just asked is probably the most common question that I am asked and when I am asked that question I go to God's providential care for me in prison he was he was with me just as he always is and and it's a really wonderful thing to go into a situation like that where there's all kinds of unknowns you're thrust into really a completely different world than you're used to it's got a whole new culture you've got all kinds of things you're wondering about based on what you've been exposed to either through Hollywood as it relates to jail and everything else and you don't really know what you're about to embark upon and yet the Lord was there and he was with me the whole way that's really what stands out. I initially I was in quarantine I didn't have much interaction with the inmates until I got moved into general public or general population where now we had an hour at a time that we were out of our cell three times a day and that's when inmates would begin to interact with me and so when I got moved into a general population instantly inmates are coming to me and wanting to talk to me wanting counsel I'm sharing the gospel to them through the door it was instantaneous that I was able to begin interacting with inmates I'd be on my exercise and walking past cells on other floors and guys would bang on the door and and they would share with me what's going on in their world and ask me to pray for them and I would do that I was able to lead a bible study with a group of men through the gospel of John and and that was at their request God is good and faithful and he used that time to to minister to those men and and what the Lord does with that we'll have to wait until we get to heaven. I was just thinking that you're going to see more fruit from that I have a feeling some of those guys who get out of prison are going to be finding their way to Grace Life Church in Edmonton and you'll see how God is sovereign overall how he ordains providentially the circumstances of life for his glory and our good. James Coates with us today here on the Christian Real View pastor of Grace Life Church in Edmonton the book is titled God in Government we really like this book we're offering for donation of any amount just get in contact with us the usual ways at our website thechristianrealview.org or calling us toll free 1-888-646-2233 by the way also in the first half of the book is also the Grace Community Church story in Los Angeles where John MacArthur pastors and Nathan Bousness your co-author tells about that story of of that church staying open and the the fines and the the legal threats coming from Los Angeles county and the government there we won't get into that today hopefully we'll have Nathan on in a future program but to tell their story but the second part of the book goes from the story to the stand and this is really more of an apologetic on Christians in government I'm just going to read the forward to the book which was written by John MacArthur in view of recent events three basic biblical truths must be emphasized first the church is essential second the church must gather regularly and corporately third the church is duty-bound to obey Christ even when doing so violates governmental regulations and restrictions given the fundamental nature of these new testament priorities he writes it's hard to believe they would prove controversial especially among evangelicals but here we are there has been a great deal of both controversy and compromise which is why the message of this book is so necessary unquote so I'm going to ask you a bit of a touchy question here James do you believe that other churches and pastors who followed government orders to shut down their services and just comply as long as government told them to were they being disobedient to God in the book we express the reality that the elders do have the prerogative to to assess how they're going to navigate something like this and they've been given that authority in Christ to to exercise that said I would say for sure what this has revealed is a low ecclesiology and and and I'm I'm at this point in time I mean there would have been a point in time earlier in the pandemic when when more grace would be extended now that we're this far in and hopefully you know coming to the the endemic side of it I think I think it is disobedience I think it's gotten to the point where it is now sin if individuals are still complying to to these health restrictions and they're using Romans 13 to do it I believe that they are out of step with their calling out of step with the responsibility given to them as shepherds that they are failing to fulfill their ministry and so that's the difficulty of it there's a period of time where you want to allow people to come along and and develop the convictions necessary to work through this but for those individuals who would just continue to Romans 13 basically all the way to the Lord returns that there's really no threshold there's no there's no limit to Romans 13 and so if the the government wants to impose permanent COVID-19 restrictions and they're gonna Romans 13 all the way to the return of the Lord clearly that is an unbiblical position to take and and I think that's what we've seen is that there are a lot of voices out there that they've got no room in their theology for for these COVID restrictions to become an overreach of governing authority power whereby they would be brought to the place of having to say no we're going to obey God not men and that's problematic there is something deficient in their understanding of Romans 13 there is something deficient in their understanding of the lordship and headship of Christ there is something deficient in their ecclesiology that they would make that level of modification and and not realize that it's going to have a harmful impact on the body of Christ so I think we've gotten to the point now where where the threshold has been breached where to to not open your church and resist the governing authorities at this particular point in time you are now in sin you are listening to the Christian worldview I'm David Wheaton you can support this radio ministry by calling 1-888-646-2233 visiting thechristianrealview.org or writing to box 401 excelsior minnesota 55331 when it comes to your health care what are some words you would use to describe your experience with them comfort peace confidence well at samaritan ministries those are just some of the words our members use frequently when a health care need arises like these friends in 2016 we found out that our youngest son asher had cancer I will just never forget crying in the lobby of the hospital on the phone with the Samaritan ministry's person on the other end who ended the call saying let's just pray about this when it does hit you and you really wonder what's going to happen it worked interested in becoming part of a growing caring community of Christians who not only faithfully share each other's medical needs each month but also support each other with prayer and encouragement it's affordable and you can join today if you'd like more information visit us at samaritanministries.org tcw that's samaritanministries.org tcw what happened to the church how do you break down american christianity whiteness has caused blindness of heart that message that they're going out and taking the world is not you need to repent of your sin receive christ instead the message that you actually have is they are under the weight of racism or sexism or homophobia the proceeding is from enemies within the church a two-hour documentary film that exposes how social justice ideology is infecting the church you can order the dvd for a donation of any amount to the christian world view go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to box 401 excelsior minnesota 55331 that's 1-888-646-2233 or thechristianworldview.org thanks for joining us today on the christian world view i'm david wheaton just a reminder that today's program and past programs are archived at our website thechristianworldview.org transcripts are also available now back to the interview james coats with us today on the christian world view one of your fellow pastors from canada was on the program recently andrew debartolo he pastors over in ontario i believe in kingston ontario and he gave a very interesting interpretation a much more stronger less compliance interpretation just do what the government says interpretation that you often hear from christians about romans 13 and so as you think about this with individual liberties being taken away whether it's you know you can't meet as a church because of covid you either have to take this vaccine or you can't cross the border you can't keep your job all the lies around covid you know masks are effective the vaccine you know is going to stop the spread you've had freedom protests in canada we're having it in america you had a bill pass in in canada you can't do quote-unquote conversion therapy now defined in the most broad way that would take away you know let's say your church's ability or restricting your church's ability to counsel someone to come to saving faith and and overcome the sin of homosexuality i i just read recently on the website reformation charlotte a new law in china titled measures for the administration of internet religious information services it's called will take place starting march 1st that will strictly forbid the sharing and exchanging of any religious information online including social media and so there's just lots of examples how this the noose is tightening for christians around the world how do we we think about christians obligation or duty to obey government in the midst of a situation where government is is going against the god-given rights that that god has given to us and you actually say this in the book you use this line government's role is to protect rights not protect life so talk about romans 13 and help us understand that passage more in the light of what is taking place today the approach to romans 13 that we're talking about here it really effectively shouldn't be novel at all i mean we all recognize that there are limits placed on romans 13 even those who have complied throughout the pandemic recognize there are limits that are placed on romans 13 that when the government is compelling you to either do a god forbids or to to not do a god commands that you are now the government has has crossed the line and it's now time to obey god not men everyone recognizes that in practice it's clear that there are infringements on commands to do certain things as well as the government forbidding what god commands we've clearly breached that threshold here and somehow pastors have found a way to say no the the government's not really telling us to do anything that we're forbidden by god and they're not really infringing on any of the commands that god has given to us and so and when you do that you're just saying well when it comes to the corporate gathering we can just do whatever we want with that thing we can just slice and dice that thing six ways from sunday and at the end of the day we're not actually meddling with the means of grace we're not meddling with the the the structure of the church as god has ordained it we're just simply modifying that which is modifiable and and i think that that just shows a very very weak and low ecclesiology and so when it comes to romans 13 we're not talking about a novel interpretation here it's not that difficult the the government has been given a particular role their authority comes from god the fact that it comes from god places limits and purposes on it and they have a and they have a particular role they are to play and their role is to protect the god-given rights of their constituency and and that's not protect life per se but it's to protect the right to life and so when governments get into trying to protect its constituency from a virus they are getting into a lane that is not theirs we don't need the government to protect us from a virus we don't even think the government is competent to do that and so so it's just not their responsibility they can provide us information they can give us insight they can they can make some recommendations and suggestions but when push comes to shove the government is not there to protect us from a virus and as soon as the government gets into that realm and begins to to infringe on god-given rights in the process they've completely missed missed their whole purpose their their whole purpose is to protect the god-given rights that are given to man that we would then be able to fulfill our role and function in the world and so you know when it comes to even what andrew expressed i would doubt that what he expressed is that novel he's probably just expressing what we've always said about romans 13 we're just now saying it in a context where we actually have to obey god not men and that's where all of these other voices are saying no this isn't that time we're not there yet there's nothing to see here and i think they're just missing the boat significantly i would have played you the soundbite but just for the sake of time i'll just refer our listeners back to the interview with him it was in february of 2022 andrew debar tolo and they can hear that that interview there and i think you too from hearing what you just said there i think you too would be very much in lockstep on your understanding of romans 13 again james coats with us today and the christian real view the co-author of god and government we have it really like this book we encourage you to read it it's very thought provoking it's helpful during our time that we're living in you can get it for a donation of any amount to the christian real view thechristianrealview.org is the website or call us toll free 1-888-646-2233 there's much more we could talk about teasing us out of civil disobedience which you address in the book because after all that's what you did as a church you were civilly disobedient and and i think biblically justified for doing so what has been the final result of this what what has this done to the the spiritual life of you your family and the members of your church well i think personally for me it's it's helped to untether me ever more from this world as you go through what we did you begin to to let go of some of the things that are are you wouldn't even necessarily know you were holding on to but you know your home financial security your family everything that um that is threatened as you go toe to toe with the governing authorities you basically have to to lay down on the altar before god and and put him in his hands and and be willing to to walk away from them all together and so i think for me personally as well as for many in our congregation i think that's been the impact i also think that the impact of this on the life of our church has been to lay aside childish things this is a time that is calling for and demanding of us that we be that we be walking with the lord abiding richly in christ and so i think that a lot of folks have grown immensely in this time by laying aside both sin and the encumbrances that weigh us down so that we would run the race before us with more endurance and vigor and i think uh you know as far as my children are concerned you know the the lasting impact of that on them is going to be yet to be seen they've gone through a difficult time it seems though they've done well in the midst of it but they've obviously seen that that when push comes to shove we're practicing what we preach and and i think that's a good healthy environment for a child to grow up in it means that that when it comes time to follow christ it's real and it comes with a cost that it's not easy we'll have to see the real lasting impact of all of this on them as they grow and mature and reflect back on what they've been through but i think all the way around when i look at all that we've gone through personally corporately as a family and everything else there's no way in which we are not better off the lord has blessed us immensely in every possible way and so we took a stand it was difficult but there's no regret i would do the exact same thing all over again in a heartbeat and i realize that there may be more difficulty on the horizon yeah this is just the i think really on in your story james and for where the world is going but we are so thankful that you came on the christian real view today it's great to hear your story but even more thank you for obeying god over government it's been an inspiration to many people not only in canada not only in the united states but around the world thank you for allowing god to strengthen you to obey him and be a model for what we're going to need to be i think in the western world going forward so thanks again for coming in the program we just wish all of god's best and grace to you and your family and grace life church thank you for having me it's been a pleasure if you missed any of the interview today you can always go to our website thechristianrealview.org and hear the entire interview you can also order the transcript those are available within a few days after the program airs also just a reminder that we are featuring pastor james's book that he has co-authored titled god versus government taking a biblical stand when christ and compliance collide this is a 208 page soft cover book that retails for 17.99 it is a new featured resource that you can order for a gift of any amount to the christian real view just get in contact with us by calling us 1-888-646-2233 rosie will take your call or you can order online which is very simple go to thechristianrealview.org or you can write to us at box 401 excelsior minnesota 55331 now of course james's story isn't unique and frankly it's not even extreme compared to what many believers have faced over the centuries with the long imprisonments torture beatings death but this took place in canada which i think gives us a preview that much more is to come pastors who clearly preach the word in street evangelists they're like canaries in the coal mine that indicate how free a society is when they get shut down watch out and it's just shocking how quickly dissent is silenced now in our country and in canada other western nations by government and also by social media but persecution only increases the strength and even the size of a church persecutors never get that they just keep on persecuting christians hoping that it will go away but it doesn't james said that his church has grown from about 350 people before his arrest to now over 900 since this all happened so the question is as we close today how to balance obedience to god versus obedience to government number one we need to accurately handle the word of truth for instance the verse in hebrews 10 about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together that means in-person church ecclesia the word for church means assembly or gathering that doesn't mean watch online which is fine for those who can't come to church whether it's a person who's shut in or sick or maybe highly susceptible but that doesn't mean for the rest of us with a virus with a 99.98 percent survival rate number two that leads to we need to obey god rather than men when the apostles in the book of acts were told to stop preaching in jesus name what do they do well let's read it in acts 5 when they the religious leaders of the day the governing authorities brought them they stood them before the council the high priest questioned them saying we gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name and yet as you have filled jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us in other words comply what's the matter with you verse 29 acts 5 but peter and the apostles answered we must obey god rather than men that is the the basis for why christians need to know when to obey government and when to obey god when the government commands something that is expressly forbidden by god we don't obey bring us to point three how to balance obedience to god versus government and that is to trust god know the word obey god rather than men and trust god for the and trust god for the results acts 5 40 another time the apostles didn't obey after calling the apostles in they flogged them in order them not to speak in the name of jesus and then released him what was the apostles response were they discouraged do they go away with their tails between their legs and why didn't we disobey government here's what they said in verse 41 of chapter 5 so they went on their way from the presence of the council rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for his name and every day in the temple from house to house they kept right on teaching and preaching jesus as the christ there's a cost for following christ you're never going to be accepted by the mainstream jesus said anyone who wishes to come after me he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me and this is why if you are listening today and you have never been reconciled made right with god if you are alienated from him because you are living in sin and haven't received his offer of reconciliation i would just urge you in the strongest terms to repent of your sin and put your faith in who christ is he's the son of god the perfect son of god and what he did for you on the cross he bled and died to pay the penalty for your sin and then he rose again and ascended into heaven and he's coming back to judge and to reign and he's commanding all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel you can find out more by going to our website thechristianworldview.org and clicking on the page what must i do to be saved thank you for joining us today on the christian worldview radio program thanks also to listeners like you and samaritan ministries for funding today's program in just a moment there will be information how you can support the program hear a replay or order transcripts and resources so be encouraged we may live in a challenging world but jesus christ and his word are the same yesterday and today and forever and jesus is coming back to rule and to reign you can count on that so until next time think biblically live accordingly and stand firm the mission of the christian worldview is to sharpen the biblical worldview of christians and to proclaim the good news of jesus christ we hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end to hear a replay of today's program order a transcript or find out what must i do to be saved go to thechristianworldview.org or call toll-free 1-888-646-2233 the christian worldview is a listener-supported non-profit radio ministry furnished by the overcomer foundation to make a donation become a christian worldview partner order resources 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