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May 17, 2019 5:23 am
One member is examining the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect.
And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcome to this additional viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM today we wrap up our look at article that was posted by Greg Trimble he's a Mormon blogger. It's titled take it easy on Pres. Nelson and as we been mentioning the context of this piece has to do with a reversal in a quote." Policy that was made back in 2015 regarding the children of those who live in a same-sex household.
They were not allowed to be baptized and also same-sex behavior was considered apostate behavior. This was reversed in April 2019 and so naturally a lot of us were criticizing the church leadership asking the question, hey, wait a minute. If you get the really prophets of God is the God of the Bible make changes like that 3 1/2 years. Will Mr. Trimble seems to think it's okay and he's basically going to bat for the leadership and this is written for members of the LDS church. Obviously telling them that they should maybe back off on their negativity. In fact, he uses the phrase that after this reversal was made in April 2019, that there came also a slew of negativity toward the prophet and the apostles that he makes a clear in his peace that this reversal to Greg Trimble was good news, which makes me wonder did he think the policy that came about in 2015 was that bad news. He thinks that the leadership is doing their best to do what is right.
He says in the second paragraph does that mean that he thinks that what they did back in 2015 was wrong. You can't really have it both ways. But it's interesting what Trimble has to say. This is why we been examining his peace here go, I want to say something that may be people been listening to us all week are saying these guys are not messing around. They seem to be agitated and I meant to say yes we are agitated because these men who are supposed to be good man whose are supposed to have honesty if their misleading people and we think they are and were showing you why, then, this is horrible because people are going to hell because of the teachings of these men and their making these policies without having any divine authority to do so.
That's why if you're thinking that were unduly upset.
I think it's because of that very reason many people are being misled because they're accepting what these men have to say and if it's just honest mistakes.
Well that's not good enough. Will you use the phrase honest mistake that the phrase a great Trimble using we talked about that yesterday, can these leaders be given a pass because a member may think they just made an honest mistake and honest mistake that in this case. When that policy came out and am using the word that they're using with that policy came out in November 2015. As we said yesterday 1500 people left the church. That's a pretty serious move on their part. Now I would say is that really warranted to do that. Will they thought it was pretty serious, and so they made that move to leave what they were told, is the only true church on the face of the earth, so that's pretty serious but then the church all of a sudden reverses itself and even people like Trimble thinks it's a positive move and I'm sure a lot of members of the LDS church probably thinks it's a positive move. But the question we're asking is, is this really how the God of the Bible operates and we would argue no.
He does not Trimble continues. Anyone who has been hurt by various church policies and is cried out for acceptance and understanding should offer the same acceptance and understanding toward the fallible volunteers who are trying their best to steer this massive ship we call the church. Let me stop either. I think what really irritates me in this paragraph your sentence that you just read is when he refers to the general authorities as fallible following years that I've always seen them as fallible because all humans are fallible. Now there are times when more than speak that you are supposed to take it as being gospel truth, and as we quoted many times on this show. When Dieter F. Boop Dorf made the comment that when the leader speak in general conference at this was the voice of the Lord speaking through his servants.
That's not something you're supposed to take lightly. But when he talks about these fallible volunteers as if these guys are all retired.
They got nothing better to do, so they just show up at 8 o'clock at church headquarters to just do whatever someone else gives them to do their not volunteers.
We've talked about it on the show before we already know these men are paid. Now they don't call it that, but they are given compensation for the time that they put in. We know that that's a fact. When you hear the word volunteer what you normally think of you think of a person who goes and gives his time and his efforts in a project, it will take for instance you and I Eric we volunteer at the Utah lighthouse bookstore on Saturdays when were in town to give Sandra Tanner a break were not compensated for that we want to be compensated for that were doing it out of really the good of our heart to give her a break, but that's not what the leadership of the church does they're not volunteers. How do you think they pay their bills. Folks you think they all retired as millionaires. You think every one of them retired as millionaires. How could that have been Gordon B. Hinckley worked his whole life for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Well, if you retired a millionaire than I have to assume the church pays quite well, its employees, but no, that's not what happens.
They are compensated. So I really wish Mr. Trimble did not use this word volunteer. He could've used any other word, but that because that word I feel is misleading and I really wish Mormons would quit referring to their leaders as volunteers. He continues give them the benefit of the doubt assume that they are not egotistical monsters and that they are good people trying to find the correct path that I don't know where he got the phrase egotistical monsters. Perhaps he knows of someone who use that phrase when you heard about this reversal in April 2019. Eric was that a phrase that came to your mind. I certainly didn't think of them as being egotistical monsters.
I certainly saw them as inconsistent, but even contradictory, but I didn't look at them as being egotistical monster so I don't know where he's getting this. Maybe he did hear that from someone else but then the He makes another statement that I think really needs to be challenged.
The church was never perfectly rights it will never be perfect until Christ comes and takes an earthly command. Let me stop either. How many times have we talked with Latter Day Saints where when we talk about the foibles of the membership, which we really don't spend a lot of time doing this because we understand that just because an individual may belong to a certain religious organization.
Even if they behaved badly, that doesn't really take away the truth claims you might say of the church itself or the organization itself. In other words, you can't argue that Christianity must be false because you see people who profess to be Christians acting like jerks I wouldn't do that with the LDS church. I would hope Mormons don't do that with Christianity I've seen a lot of Latter Day Saints act in a less than stellar way but that bad behavior would not cause me to conclude that the Mormon church must be false because of the behavior of an individual when he says the church was never perfect, it never will be perfect.
I've had Mormons say hey the church is perfect. It's the people who are not perfect common phrase found within Mormonism. But here's what makes me wonder about what Mr. Trimble is trying to say here. Are we to assume that in this particular sentence here that he's looking at the church as being the people know I don't normally see that is the definition given by the church itself. The church is always an organization now is a Christian, I would say yes, the church, the Christian church is never perfect, will never be perfect because the church is composed of those whom Christ has forgiven. That is the sum total of the Christian church. The individuals who have been forgiven because of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross at Calvary. So we would argue that the church being composed of fallible human beings, though forgiven, are certainly never going to be perfect in their behavior or even in their thought processes. But when Trimble says the church was never perfect, it will never be perfect. Makes you wonder how is he defining church in this particular sentence that I don't think for a minute that he holds to an evangelical definition of the church. It just makes me wonder why he said it the way he did. But he says it will never be perfect until Christ comes and takes an earthly command, but then he goes on to say, but even then, does anyone think that when Christ comes that he's going to make policies that everyone agrees with there we go again filled the idea that Trimble has given throughout is that somehow God needs to not only make his mind known. So these leaders are under pressure trying to say what God wants.
But at the same time trying to make everybody happy. That's not the way the Bible has it. The Bible lays out a lot of things in the word of God that says that were not supposed to do some of the things that we enjoy doing, but we need to resist will he's kind of given the implication here that when Christ comes back that not everyone is going to agree with Christ will I don't know if I get that kind of a picture and reading the New Testament during the millennial reign, or even after the judgment and were all in the presence of Christ are we going to have a lot of disagreement with what we think Jesus is saying I don't get that impression. In the New Testament now I admit there's not a whole lot written in the New Testament about what our day-to-day activities are going to be when we are in the presence of Christ as his redeemed people. But he gives the impression here. Mr. Trimble does. Does anyone think that when Christ comes that he is going to make policies that everyone agrees with does Mr. Trimble and I don't know but does Mr. Trimble think that there's going to be a lot of debate after this happens, I just don't picture that from what I do read in the New Testament in the next paragraph he writes the bottom line is that if there is a loving God, then there is no policy on this earth that is going to keep you out of the presence of God and and and it should say as long as you are living your life is a good person, and that's ultimately what we all want in the end, I'm assuming or we wouldn't be arguing about the various policies.
The phrase that troubles me in that paragraph, though Eric is as long as you are living your life is a good person there again. That's the Mormonism the traditional Mormonism coming to the surface be good be good. It's all about being moral and as we said many times on this show, though a Christian should be a moral person a moral person does not necessarily make one a Christian and that's a huge difference between us and the teachings that are given to the members of the church. The last paragraph says this despite any personal shortcomings, which we all have, I think Pres. Nelson is one of those good guys with a good heart. I think he loves all the members of the church regardless of their positions on various policies. So take it easy on him during these confusing days we live in. I think better days are yet to come.
Uses the phrase confusing days but isn't the leadership of the LDS church. The ones behind the confusion that so many members of the church are having in these days. Thank you for listening you would like more information when guarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research.
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