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Ministry Leaders and Big Bucks?

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble
The Truth Network Radio
January 7, 2020 3:05 pm

Ministry Leaders and Big Bucks?

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble

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January 7, 2020 3:05 pm

Ministry Leaders and Big Bucks?

Typically, when thinking of pastors or ministry leaders, you don't associate them with raking in the big bucks. However, today, Warren Cole Smith, President of MinistryWatch, joins to discuss the 50 highly paid  Christian ministry executives.

Additionally, to learn more about MinistryWatch check out -


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Everyone is noble show where biblical Christianity meets the everyday issues of life, your home, at work, and even in politics. Steve is an ordinary man who believes in an extraordinary God it on a show, there's plenty of grace and lots of true but no sacred 866-34-TRUTH or checking out Now here's your house. Okay, let's dive right in and tell me if you would like to sign up for this level of compensation. The total compensation for one year. That's the understood Italian numbers. Personalty is a main three points, 77 5,000,001.5 million, 1.4 million cool million million 53,000 to be exact million 18,980 5000 is a yearly earnings for various people 751 grand 696 grand 580,500 79,005 and 78,000. These are individuals making this kind of money, 535,000 for 96,004 and 69,004 and 17,300 94,000 down to the list of labs at stop three 975 grand and one year about that you bail for that compensation treatment, 71,000 a year 335 309 a number 60 on this particular lists are coming in at a wow this is almost embarrassing.

302,004, and $81 in one year. That would be for Mark Hanlon, who happens to be the senior vice president of compassion international strainer to grant who was up at the top of that list.

3.7 me to spell it out for a $3,775,570 in 2017 paid to David Cirillo, the president of the inspiration network. Now before you go ballistic on that and start slamming the inspiration network, Jay Sekulow, the founder of American Center for Law and Justice, one of Trump's attorneys. I have tremendous respect for Jay. I don't know how to handle this information in 2017 he made 1.4 million.

His wife made 1 million 1,053,004 and 32 she was a spokesperson for ECL J. His brother Gary also ACL J in the same year may just shy of $1 million, 985,847. So between those three secular's at about 3.3 3.4 million from their ministry in one year waiting about that how you deal with those numbers. Good, bad, know your business.

Steve get off your high horse. Holy cow what you get me or do you think this is a problem. Well, this is the information coming off of a recent article that my good friend Warren Cole Smith at ministry watch published 50 highly paid Christian ministry executives. One of the reasons ministry watch exist to kind of pay attention. This kind of stuff worn, happy new your brother. Thanks for a call in and how are you do a great day. Thank you. Your style room there, but there wasn't enough the roads and art art. Right now I do that you apparently on the wrong or currently off on the wrong side of the microphone so we believe that one well and alone.

So before it can a dive in these individual numbers and what it does and does not mean why does ministry watch tells a little about ministry watch and why would you compile a list that says so kind of explosive like this yet. Will ministry watch is an organization that keep an eye on Christian ministry coming ministry watch. That's what we do and of course the beer or wine. A great doing a lot of great work in many of the leaders of those ministry are not vacantly out there.

They're making very modest income, living very sacrificial. He and doing that nonetheless rework the kingdom, and also what is the thought something that you that Jay Sekulow well with others on this list may be doing great work, but there also like a whole lot of money and we think that ministry watch that donors delete ministry need to know how the money is being used within those ministry if you're a publicly traded company CEOs and all senior executives in the publicly traded companies have their salaries. Their annual salaries are listed in the filing documents as those publicly traded companies have to file every year with the with the federal government, and so we think that it is appropriate donors and the general with no how much money are the senior executives are making one of the reason I just want to convert briefly for the sake of the donor, but I also think it's for the sake of the church as well leave our Reddit Gallup survey just a couple days ago they said that 30 years ago 68% of Americans believe that that that organized religion that the church was either good or very good for the cultures that they had out that they that they had high confidence in the integrity of those organizations that number today 38% and 68% to 38% in the last 30 years.

It's not been one year with big precipitous decline, but gradually over time, the American people have lost confidence in the equity of church leaders and we think this kind of information making it public will help the store that credibility will tell the world that you know were not about fleecing our own and hopefully maybe some of these folks will explicitly I will be honest with anymore about Greenpoint in and so had to two questions how do you find out this information because letting it's important for people to understand that this is actually accessible publicly and then in the third paragraph of your article Warren. You talked about that there's a growing trend among Christian ministries identifies churches which allows them to withhold their form 990 self to get this information then touch on that you mentioned very briefly at all expand just a little bit how we get that information that is that every nonprofit organization. This country technically to exempt organization. They don't have to pay many forms of factors that court for-profit corporations to have to fill out a form 990 and submit that submit that thought to the Internal Revenue Service that looks like a tax form that all but the figure that all the ability to your what this form 990 includes revenue. It includes expenses that include big names, and the amount that you pay for your largest contractors and it also includes a list of board members and senior executives and how much they make those form 990s are available to the public part of the if you will costs of being a tax-exempt organization is that you have to fill out the forms and make them available to the public. It kind of the deal that we make with nonprofits and this is the case for many many decades in this country. However, if your church you do not have to make your form 990 available to the public so increasingly Christian ministry ministries that are not what we Steve was really historically a culture because they don't marry people. People will meet on Sunday morning worship. They don't do baptisms for communion or deleting the kinds of things that you would think of the churches to our increasingly saying that they are churches. You don't have to disclose their 990s of the public historically done by fat got the other hiding. That's the concern, but John hold worn replicants a break over talking to Warren Cole Smith for ministry watch an incredible organization that is doing great work to help us pay attention to our own camp ministry 50 highly paid Christian ministries is on here who isn't. Why this is normal noble show get into some people do business today, 50 highly paid Christian ministry packet is a pretty impressive list. Start at the top number number one David Cirillo, the president of the inspiration networks made a loud and I survive on this.

3.7 million in the year's general counsel at the inspiration networks may die just behind at 1.5 million number two on this particular list Jay Sekulow LAC LJ hundred 1.4 million is number three number five.

His wife Kim psycho spokesperson for East LJ pretty good work.

If you can get it a million bucks. Jerry followed Liberty University a million bucks.

Gary secular Jay Sekulow's brother ACL J 985,000 about Samaritans purse Franklin Graham 696,000 about Kayla and Caleb does their big giving program every year right there that they're giving week whatever it's called.

I don't member what it what it bug you to know that the CEO of Caleb Michael Kovach in 2017 made $580,000 during pledge week is that bug you should ask a question. The present world vision 534,000 speaking of that compassion international Santee Algoma lotto the CEO of compassion international 2018. Well, not feeling too much compassion about his earnings, making $417,314 in one year not to bet pretty good work. If you can get it and CEO Robin my food of for food for the poor four and 69,000 pretty interesting topic and a great article 50 highly paid Christian ministry executives by my friend Warren Cole Smith at ministry watch and I Warren joins us by phone today so so what we what we do with this information you got kicked off that Warren and I think most people are probably really surprised to hear these numbers should they be as this long for ministries bringing in 100 million a year in the leader that ministry makes $800,000 year why that necessarily wrong side of help help us understand is how do we look at this theologically in a way that glorifies God. Yeah, I do not think that the great? But let me just say that I don't think there's anything wrong will make a lot of money, you know, I think that if you're gifted and talented person and you work it is worthy of his prior. The Bible teaches. So often people make a lot of money is not a problem. This is not a question of jealousy or in the it is a matter of print. See in disclosures. The Bible is all about truth and light, and that goes for the way we deal with each other as well. There's an old saying in my world. The Journal of the world that sunlight is the best disinfectant. The other side of that coin is that you know all kinds of bad things to grow in darkness. And so what were trying to do it best to watch you just to make this information known make it available. Let people take a look at it.

So that's number one on Hightower's are good and low salaries for a hike. There was a better look out for good.

I'm simply saying that if you're a donor you deserve. You have the right to this information should know what it is and you should make your giving decisions according to that number two is that sometimes you have to pay big money to get the hell that that there are organizations that are large and complex that have thousands and thousands of employees we mentioned world vision and compassion international and Samaritans purse.

The compassion and world vision are going to go over $1 billion in revenue this year marriage to be in the many hundreds of dollars. It takes real fees to run these organizations and those folks should be paid what they are worth. But again, I would just argue that the donor's of those organizations should know what their leaders are paying. The other thing that I would mentioned here. If I could just briefly churches that I think it's important to know that there are lots of folks that are not on this list because we can't find out what their compensation is right. Those are the ones that I would recommend that people don't give money to the if they are that there's an old saying in the journalism world that is somebody doesn't have something to hide, then they wouldn't be hiding and these organizations they're trying to hide different April statements or hide their compensation of the senior executive is a very appropriate appropriate question asked why are you hiding if you got nothing to hide.

Why are you hiding in there some others on this list like and I'll just mention Franklin Graham is an example, we were able to get the 990s work. Samaritans purse and that's why we were able to to report that Franklin Graham make $696,000, but the Billy Graham evangelistic Association, which he is also the president is one of those organizations that does not disclose it.

990s any longer right so we don't know how much you make from the Billy Graham evangelistic Association Franklin Graham could in fact be making much more than the $700,000 that we support. Do you think warned that that we should look at parachurch ministries like all of these differently than we look at churches, should we pay attention, should we be asking our own church had just just curious how much the pastor makes all or are these two kinda separate silos and we should keep them separate. No, I don't think there's separate silos. I think that the bid well they are in this is that on the church usually has a board of deacons, elders, many churches, including the church I go through the entire congregation knows what our budget we have to vote on it on annually with the book on our budget as a church annually and so I do think that it different in the sense that the vast majority of local churches donors are the members of that local jerk it's pretty unlikely. Steve is generous. The guys you are just going to give money to my church or I'm going to give money to your church. We give money for local churches. So I do think it is for the local churches Taconic that you'll that decision-making process in the disclosure process local problem that we run into in the last 34 years in the church is that that local churches are no longer have purely local ministries. For example, at the Rick Warren's church Saddleback Church out in California, nationwide radio ministry.

David Jeremiah is the same light. A lot of these local pastors now have national ministry and in my view, those folks should be required to disclose their financial information in ways that are broader than just the local church body yeah and I think that's something that you mentioned several times, and I appreciated your donor and your giving these organizations and you you Plaza money and Samaritans persevere a massive organization to go out on the street and hire somebody to run a $300 million organization you not to be able to hire anybody good for hundred 50 grand. You're just not so. The question is, it always comes back to and when were not supposed to have even the appearance of evil were supposed to be above reproach, and so I think there's generally a line in the sand for all of us reset the go okay if you find that your pastor at a church of 900 is making hundred thousand dollars somebody bargaining over. That seems like another billing I don't have a lot of drama that they're very busy they give a lot to it. So I think we have to be careful Warren. I wanted to ask you.

I went to be careful that to know about our own covetousness, and we have to be careful that were not throwing people under the bus and not being realistic about the six well I think it was right on the needle again from Mark. Would you ministry watch that were not thing no one answers the right answer one answer is wrong in your workday that transparency and disclosure of these numbers is important. It will allow your giving money to those ministries that have a local off again in July mentions the publicly traded companies earlier in our conversation about you just make one other point about that. The reason that I met one of the reasons that the United States of America has the strongest was vibrant economy in the world is because we have confidence in our public financial market that we know that this companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange or the NASDAQ are companies that have to do close information for the public is that the amount of right, not decrease, is that you think it will have ministry watch what a great article.

What a great topic and an important one ministry Always appreciate brother thinks the colonists to friends of the conversation we come back to Mac and Steve Noble. This will show poking our fingers into the hornets nest a little bit today. Perhaps, just kind of bouncing often when open up the phones. Do you if you are listening the first half. The show we are talking to Warren Cole Smith is now the head over it. Ministry watch a great great ministry that just keeps an eye empowering donors Christian ministries. They keep an eye on who's doing what, how much they're spending, executive compensation, all that kind of stuff so that we can make good decisions you want to give your money and your heart and money money that your responsible for in the Lord's eyes to organizations that are that that are making good decisions with the money or spending it wisely.

If 22% of their income goes to their actual mission and 78% goes to compensating people obvious that's a problem so that I can. Information is is something that we all need to pay attention to. But I rarely do we ask these questions so ministry watch, but this list out one ministry watch list 50 highly paid Christian ministry eggs executive some big big numbers in here so my question for you. If you have a problem with that how you look at that if if if somebody like Franklin Graham running Samaritans purse with a probably have $200 million and in income this year paying him $700,000 year. Do you have a problem with that. What about pastors from the pastor making hundred grand a year so this is from The average pastor sorry United States is $96,000 as of December 26, 2019, but the range typically falls between 79,000 and hundred 9000 salary ranges can vary widely depending on many important factors including education, yada yada yada, and the average church in America but still about 94 people.

Okay, so you've got some pastor doing just fine, but you have all a lot of pastors in small churches that are by vocational they got. I have another job this or not but I can't provide for my family what the last year with virtually Philo 990 that includes compensation for me personally with this radio ministry. Laster's first year I took a paycheck regular payroll throughout the year, which might board decided on, but like I could not cover all the expenses of having a family in a house in the cars in college and stuff like that for my wife and I and our four kids that all this is out of the house now, but the other three are still dependence with is that sorry I get from this list ministry for the radio ministry so I teach as well have multiple sources of income because I have to night. I'm blessed because I love doing all the things that I do, but there's not one thing that pays me enough that day can support the family. So there's that end of it, but as you do, you are you worried about which pastor makes what you think about ministry leaders making big money give a problem with that.

That's my question for you. 866-34-TRUTH 87884.

Especially if you been listening to the first Avenue here in some of these big numbers. How does that affect you if you knew if your Caleb listener Caleb giver and they got there. You know they do their big once or twice a year. They picked to their pledge drive and you all of a sudden you know that the Caleb CEO trying to find his number in here. It's pretty nice number. Let's see the Caleb CEO is making that's Michael Novak the CEO in 2017 is total compensation was $580,620 so that can affect you. Your Caleb listener Caleb giver to know that CEO Caleb makes 580 grand is that that little seems a little high. Steve and I don't know as I'm asking you, does it matter to you how much the leaders of ministries and churches make or do you feel like that's on your business 866-34-TRUTH 87884 or 866-34-TRUTH really am curious as to how your reacting to this information. 866-34-TRUTH 87884 866-34-TRUTH I was looking at an article on not to be the point on Jay Sekulow on the American Center for Law and Justice.

I follow Jay Sekulow for years, Brillion Attorney messianic Jew now is one of Trump's top attorneys when they do some incredible work, not just in America but around the world on religious freedom and stuff they were involved with getting that the pastor free and I ran to member's name. It was a couple years ago.

They do great things, but there is some digging that was done by the Washington Post and don't throw it out the window just as the Washington Post all the stuff is you can get Utah's information from 996 is in hidden information in go get it if you want someone five years from 2011 to 2015 ACL J brought in $229 million in donations of which 5 1/2 million over those five years went to the secular family members. J. His wife, his brother and went to them and for another 23 million went to their firms see of Jay Sekulow Gary secular Pam psycho Adam secular Logan Sekulow Jordan secular Regency productions in it that that those are all part of the KC ASE so these are all different organizations that serve ACL J which are run and owned by all these different people to like Jay Sekulow oh Gary secular vote in that. Made 1.2 million from ACL J and made another 2.6 million because he's that case, which is the name of one of their businesses that they'll that serves a lot of the things that ACL when you see things like that you said on that. Does that give you little pots. We urge you not care. Just curious when you hear numbers like this again. David Cirillo may be an inspiration network person makes three point he made $3.8 million in 2070 Jay Sekulow and 2017 ACL J just ACL J made 1.4 million, his wife as a spokesperson made a million. His brother is a CFO CFO may just shy of a million. The director, Trinity broadcasting network center and 51 grant Franklin Graham. It's at the CEO Samaritans purse about 700 grand in the head of Caleb Novak in 2017 made 580,000 due care that bug you doesn't seem off you like. I think sums wrong or hey that's fine is the big organizations and it takes big money to hire the right people but this is ministry doing things in the name of the Lord, so should you really be going by regular business market rates are perhaps you should be a little more.

I don't know restraint you tell me 866-34-TRUTH 784 or 866-34-TRUTH hey John, thanks for calling and I appreciate that. Sorry keep you on hold, go ahead. My noble brother Steve are you doing good man how are you happy new year. Wonderful. Happy new year to you.

I just want to say who my ideal minister with salary would be and why that would be Rick Warren huge huge mega church meeting many different you know places and him and K have lived off of 10% of their income. Huge income and they have donated and invested in the Lord's kingdom. 90% of their income for decades to me that that is something that I admire and that's really all I appreciate con ensuring that John and somebody can reverse tide which is essentially what they're doing.

That's pretty awesome vision of the disabled, and no matter how much you make it what you do with the exact write down things are gone and I appreciate it.

Thanks welcome and you know and that's you go back to the purpose driven life, which is still one of the top-selling books of all time and and I remember back when this is all happening.

I think this is the sum deftly before I got on the radio but Rick Warren returned all the money that the church had ever given anything making tons of money ever since. Because the purpose driven life and always other doors at that open and they reverse tide. They lived off 10% and they've given away 90% to give the money back to the church and when I first heard that because I'm such a cynical person is like, well, perhaps you have your reward because you made that public and media shouldn't of done that maybe the right hand should know the left hand is doing, but that's a great example of generosity living below your means even though you can't make that much money should you make that much money again. I don't have a I don't have a problem. Any Christian businessman business owner, a businesswoman successful salesperson whatever private industry. Get your own business you make $3 million euros fine.

God can judge you on your heart is in a judge you on your generosity.

Not your W-2. Now you come over and the charity world to come over in the ministry world and the church world. Should we be known by our debility that I salary should we be more known by our restraint. Are you called to be a popper.

Hey, I got should buy new cars on the Bayou sky. While the views targeted by I dealt with this when we sold our little house cleaning company might well you I'd sold my truck without any company to buy car knocking my new car that's a rip off and then what's our what's our budget euros can be like $17,000 so it's okay will I sold a house painting company can sell red okay so we had enough cash coming out every eat all my ear, but so was was at a good godly thing to do than buy button but didn't buy new but you yeah but maybe why do you have to spend $17,000. The wedding you by spent 50 why did you spike spend 10 and give the other seven to ministry bash international or whatever.

Why did you spend five and give the other 12,000 you think that's our measured. You gotta be a pro popper to be a good Christian you can't make that case, it's about your heart despite your generosity in talking about public perception and what Warren is talking about accountability.

Let's go to India's conifer Markel and any thanks for calling grandma Steve, go right ahead. I find it Westside want to make 500 grand a year and well why a great deal really well you get numbers to get right in terms of economy of scale should should be relative its economies of scale $100 million company and you make a $2 million a year. That's not outlandish million dollar company to make $3 million year that it just depends on what you're talking about three point anything. So much for calling and I appreciate it. So what you think.

866-34-TRUTH 8788. For some people's business today here on the show 866-34-TRUTH Steve Noble will be right back noble show people's business. Today we been talking about this list for ministry watch ministry watch with Warren Cole Smith was on the first half of the show ministry is their website and then they going to this list of the big money make in ministry leaders and these are just the ones words publicly available. You can find out about it so I J Jay Sekulow O NaCl J in 2017 made 1.4 million. His wife who was a spokesperson made a little over a million in his brother, the CFO made 985,000. So between the three of them last name secular oh they made about $3.4 million in 2017.

Pretty good right you could live on that you have a problem.

I mean, eight is listed. Here's a story that was done. Washington Post a little digging is not that difficult.

By the way, you get all this stuff that they file a 990 you can really get this information. I brought in up nearly 2 $230 million. This is a seal. James she's an amazing example 2011 at 2015 they brought in nearly $230 million.

That's huge money and then that 235 1/2 million went to secular family members in another 23 million went to the firms that they own and operate which all are involved with the ministry and the radio show and all the products they put out all that stuff so it's all big happy family. Right again always different organizations that serve the main organization and its you know what a secular is in their J and Gary and Pam and Adam and Logan and Jordan and his money flow, such as those guys that I mentioned Caleb earlier, the CEO, Kayla Michael Novak in 2017. This is their own tax filings $580,000 an issue with that. But if you find out your pastor is making 200 grand waiting about you. You want to chime in on pastor pay you think pastor should be making big money. The average earnings in America. Median income in America is about 60 grand a year's mediums right in the middle. Do you think pastor should be about that. Should they be suffering or what if your pastor made hundred 50 K 200 K a year.

You probably got. Should we care the better pastors that the necessarily poor man. Do you want them really that strapped so that the worry about paying the bills and see that it is the topic as one might think 866-34-TRUTH 87884 if you'd like to chime in here before we finish the hour 866-34-TRUTH 87884 ministry leaders and pastors make big bucks when you think about that 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH to go to STC over in the beautiful state of Utah. Stacy, thanks for calling. Go right ahead okay you a life of poverty 500 regular person when you hear things like Kayla you know if it care and feeling came around making money. I only think about myself driving down the road and drive you feeling guilty that I'm not sending you know donating my $30 right people to be able to hear it everything. I don't donate making their finger on their pensionand at that time defendant and people can hear Kayla when from the heart here I'm never going to church with the pastor made a lot of money I don't have a lot that I know Mike okay train. You know when pastor was imprisoned in Iran.

I know I could think I even I'm not getting more and I'm not getting more things like that because I want to see pastor i.e. three and when you hear that I'm like wow there's a lot of legal work done for $. I like yeah and I think ministry watches point warns point when he was called in earlier is hey we should at least have that information and then if you got a problem with it.

If it's violating your conscience. You think that's not right. Will you make that decision as a donor to do with your money. What you will. God's holding you responsible for it and I think that's information we need to have ministry watch wasn't necessarily saying hey, this is wrong. If you run a big giant $200 million your organization. It takes big money to get that kind of talent that can run that and that's understandable.

But when it's in a Christian ministry in your relying on donors on a percent of that income is donors.

Is there a little check there and on the Caleb thing Stacy think it's a perfect example. I really appreciate your calling and listening think you are welcome.

Have a great afternoon.

866-34-TRUTH 878-848-6634 here's another one. This is from is Jessica pastor salaries on one side, they said it was like 60 grand this one says $40,000 year which sounds more accurate to me and they have actually different pastor jobs in the salaries posted 51 grand 48 grand 52 grand 49 grand 50 grand 49 grand stuff like that and because most of the average church in America 94 people.

Okay, so if you go to a church of thousand people you're a mega church relative to the country and most churches it if you got thousand people come in on Sunday to your church. I can pretty much guarantee your pastors make at least 100 grand.

Maybe hundred 50 that bug you. Do you know you want to know.

Well, that's between you and the Lord in your church, but I think transparency is a big deal and I think we need to deal these things again. She mentioned that with the Caleb Drive the pledge drive right as I hey if they're in the Roanoke Rapids wherever you want to state you want to keep Caleb on the radio there. We need your donation we get. We need 10 more pledges of $30 a month and not necessary pick on Caleb by itself, but what you do at that go well and plus we need to pay our CEO, 580 grand this year.

Would you call us and hit the brakes and all.

Why the seal Caleb made 580 grand in 2017 and that was part of the pledge drive problem.

I mean for me personally pretty big organization is a lot of moving parts blesses a lot of people in but but is that above reproach is that giving the appearance of evil. Should we be known more for our restraint and our extravagance should it matter what people outside the organization and your board and your donors think that interesting question is not 866-34-TRUTH 87884 if you want to chime in before you run out of time. 866-34-TRUTH is going to Donnie's gone and from right here in Raleigh, North Carolina hey Downey things were gone and go ahead Danny.

Danny, I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Okay, I don't have a problem with wealthy people at all with people who work for the money. I do have a problem with people who are greedy and take from other people take advantage of people who are very generous and it seemed a mile in my small world I gripping a very large poor family. My parents are immigrants. It seems to me that the people of police get them all and I have a problem with use my friends pastor he's he lives on a very expensive estate. He married a woman that her family owned hotel stock United States is always asking for money or money for money from people from parishioners who don't have a lot and they sacrifice to give and I think that is wrong. I think it's selfish and greedy and I think that when he stands before our judge can a look at him and had all this you were expecting other people to fund your church and plus people know that pastors they get tax breaks they don't have to pay taxes. Try to be very careful. My advice to people.

It gives directly to people you know need money you can see your money and the fruits of your labor. Don't trust organist don't give the organization give people that the best advice I can give people didn't do anything. So much for calling and I appreciate it's great input in designing organizations are a lot I don't think so, but you should be willing to invest member couple years back zero, North Carolina Stephen verdict elevation church. Nobody knows how much he makes and then down there. Actually, Warren Smith was a part of that world magazine, but the local NBC station.

I think it was ABC for dinner tonight special and they called it the house that Stephen built so Stephen verdict, pastor of a massive church down there is is a prolific rights auto books nobody knows I much money makes okay. He's got like counsel of people from other churches. TD Jakes and people like that really fascinating story company built the house at 16,000 ft.≤, and so that's why they call this expose the house that Stephen built an enemy come back to that original question, should we be known for our restrainer for our extravagance. So I dived at this conversation was on my high school students in my ethics class. We do we get a hold day on poverty and wealth a little bit for mostly poverty today, what would you guys think if I showed up in a Porsche Boxster next week cool little two-door convertible Porsche right okay all I know the guys really God school in a few of them are like.

I don't know if I should say anything I want to be judgmental and it suits my teacher to make anatomy is okay, so maybe you just are getting a little bit about about that. Mr. Noble then get a few hands that go up and then I say okay what if you find out that it's like five or six years old eight years old I Porsche Boxster for $15,000. I paid more for the two-year-old Honda accord that I drive that I could get a Porsche Boxster for 15 grants can be eight or nine maybe 10 years old looks pretty cool. Still, Porsche should I beat with that bug you. I'm on tooling around Christian radio guy hey Bronson, I'm asking people to donate to the ministry were trying to get the word got out there and try to engage big subjects with a worldview that in and doesn't matter and now for my wife and I I'm like, come on honey people are good to judge me. That's their problem in my life will be going on here and talk about a lot of things.

I don't know you won't open yourself for that, but I don't know it only cost me 15 grandma yeah but it's the appearance. Some people say that the parents doesn't matter, but we are supposed to be people that are above reproach and stuff always look at the heart of the heart budget pastor live in a 16,000 square-foot house know why that's not above reproach. Later on when they started present about it.

I think my only 8000 that answer that answer. So maybe we should be paying so much attention to what other people are doing or money to make sure we pay attention to what we're doing with the money that we have the noble and noble so great topic appreciate Warren Smith, then plug in through these things.

Trying to be close to the Lord and apply anyway.

God willing outside to get my dad always say ever for

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