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Theology of Covid Response

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble
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December 16, 2021 10:32 pm

Theology of Covid Response

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble

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December 16, 2021 10:32 pm

Theology of Covid Response

Steve talks to Dr. Billy Gotcher, from Bob Jones Seminary, today to discuss the response to the theology of covid.


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The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network mobile show you why your home work politics. Steve is an ordinary man who believes in an extraordinary God it on his shoulders. Grace Watson through no sacred cows call Steve Bell 86 34 through 866-34-TRUTH or checking out online, Steve Noble now here's your host Steve Noble everybody Merry Christmas today being Thursday. Of course, theology Thursday with our friends at BJ's seminary down to beautiful Greenville South Alina today and interesting title if you caught it on Facebook library or YouTube live the theology of coven response, not just covert itself have a theology. I certainly hope not like my guess is it doesn't, but what does theology have to do with our response and probably I can't think of anything in the last six or 10 or 20 years in my life as a Christian that was as divisive or as challenging in the church is what we've done with COBIT. I think at first to go back almost 2 years now friends got think about that February March 2020. So in two months were to be at the two year mark 24 grueling months of dealing with COBIT in course when it first started. Nobody knew what we are dealing with. I think most of us were in the love your neighbor mode and so when they say 14 days to flatten the curve of this that nothing most of us gave them being that the government the benefit of the doubt, were willing to do things, but after a month in two months and six months it very difficult and in not a lot better inside the church.

I think you probably experience at your church. I deftly experience it at the church we use to attend and then we switched churches in the middle of COBIT as a result of some things, but one of those things being covert response of the church and so there's been a tremendous amount of division which is been more divisive for the church in America evangelicalism as it COBIT is a Donald Trump at this point I think is probably COBIT so I reading from today seminary viewpoints blog which oftentimes we reference when we do theology Thursday in the new meter guest here in just a second. The title joy plus wisdom that should ring a bell for you coming out of the book of James. James's formula for addressing COBIT 19 and a complex culture over the last nearly 2 years church. The been bombarded with an unanticipated COBIT 19 pandemic and ache woke culture, pastors, church leaders and members have all faced confusion, dislocation, and sometimes even financial disaster. No wonder a recent barn organization. Research reveals 38% of pastors have considered quitting full-time ministry within the past year up a stunning nine points from 29% a year ago and so that's the big problem in the church and with pastors and we talked about a time and time again.

Now of course as we approach Christmas and winter.

The numbers already spiking again and California's locking down again New York is going into a deeper lockdown or to see this around the country and then what are what's a good church to do a Dr. Billy Gaucher's with us today and is been a pastor for decades in recently served for six years up in Vermont and so now he's going to spend Christmas in South Carolina which is good. Quite a difference and has walked through the covert response himself and wrote today's viewpoint blog again joy plus wisdom dealing with our COBIT responses as of church and as a culture, but Billy, it's great to see you are welcome. If I can say that to South Carolina and Merry Christmas to you. How are you thank you Steve. It's a blessing to be here in the viewport were God's doing it by June seminary and I think you have musica so I do spend a lot of time in the South. But having been in Vermont the last six years and all of a sudden it's 70░ a week out from Christmas is a bit of an adjustment because it seems like it's Christmas season. Most of the year in a place like Vermont. That's true of me and the seasons are a little more distinct.

Or maybe I should just say the winners a little more about him and talk right now in Vermont I'm sure so cell is still a little euro Florida Christmas always snuck up on you smell being here. It's not quite that first Christmas here so were were to settle and yet exciting. I know everybody's excited to have you there at BJ's seminary and to be teaching theology in a corset which would relate well that were talking about today church issues and also focusing on and we talked about this on the show many times for those of you that might not have tendon is often on theology Thursday 5 x 5 x 500 guy got a get a 500 new pastors out there every five years because we have a huge drought coming.

It's kind of like what were looking at in the future.

From a governmental perspective of unfunded liabilities you like. This is a train wreck coming for our general the generations behind us and their generations behind them. Well, the pastor shortages a train wreck that trench drain is on the tracks.

It's coming at the country and so that's why Bob Jones of seminaries so focused on that and that's what Dr. Billy Gaucher's and to be involved in as well but COBIT had to append a complete curveball for you Billy and pastoring a church and going through what was it like when it first got started and then will dive into the blog and will talk about James but just your own story in your own experience with well as it began to roll out obviously were concerned for nation and everything else and how we respond other walk-throughs church even look at historically held churches prior respond to the pandemics to think through it. Pray through it.

We also had a Christian school in with things like our governor was given a weekly updated, he set on one Thursday. Kids need to stay in school than on Saturday announced our schools would be closed and it was so we were right in the you know our schoolwork. Kids are to stay in school to immediately were going okay with Christian school. How do we do this what we do and in our public schools were shut down for a month and then they came back and offered like two days a week kind of instruction and we we took a week off our teachers came back next week we prepped in the so we have basically we cannot have all school we launched online education for students right away and then at the church was it was it come by our on the same page were to follow you pastor whatever you say Masco mass open.

Don't open or was it was a little more challenging than that, I would expect that initially everybody was we we had set up the year before to be able to do remote so that was a blessing so we were able to live stream right away. We actually had a small group come to church. We could actually provide a church service. Even though people were attending, but it still would like a church service in the sit in my office and you got a speaking tour folks in us. We tried to do that and then as you got closer to when you could open when you couldn't and then all the issues ofseeing and masking and no masking and all of this began to ratchet up and so we really had to think through what, how, how do we walk through this is the congregation how to write, respond, or governing authorities.

Yeah, because you've got how the church handles it and what you do organizationally and functionally every week and but then you have the congregation's response to those decisions and was that how did that go according to our sin nature and human depravity order to go more. According to well we really see the Lord doing work here since we all possess the Holy Spirit and there's some unusual unity of what was that like just in terms of the back-and-forth, what you have a little bit of both an individual responses. What we tried to do what I tried to do during our shutdown was really come back to our folks and say what God is sovereign God is in control. This God is in this for good and we have to make sure this we move forward in the walk-through with the information just is this this is not a gospel is yeah that's such a great point workout come up on it on a commercial break such as hold that thought right there were talking to Dr. Billy Kocher from PJ. You seminary or talking about covert response inside the church. The big challenge will be right back. Theology Thursday with her friends at BJ's seminary and as a reminder for all these great courses and logs that we reference all kinds of things that we reference in make available not only to you but to your pastor so if your pastor never has a chance to listen the show to send the link you get the plotting podcast apples modify where your podcasts were all over those you get it off of Facebook Liber YouTube live and go to the Steve Noble show page on either of those and share that over to your pastor because we always have brilliant theologians and pastors and professors in here on Thursday with her friends at BJ's seminary so there's great resources in the conversation that there's also great resources that are written.

Many of them specifically for this use and and no different today in the seminary viewpoint.

So we have a landing page that I was try to remind you of his seminary.BJ\radio At the links up on Facebook seek and see if there seminary.PJ\radio you'll see references to all the articles and all the topics that we've been talking about over the last several months on theology Thursday and also references for pastors and resources that the is that there church that BJ you seminaries is doing an awesome job of trying to quit pastors as the culture continues to change and today as we talk about the theology of a covert response with Dr. Billy Kocher. This is one of those things that most churches of struggle with it and I don't know how often we ask you just can hit the pause button have a conversation about it. We argue about it a lot and I think it's calm down a bit. Thank God. But it's still a big challenge and with winter the numbers going back up and so this can be a challenge in church. Once again, I think around the country, joy plus wisdom. James's formula for addressing COBIT 19 in a complex culture with Dr. Billy Kocher again to Billy think so much for being with us today. We appreciate it you it's great to be with the suit. So as we look at the first chapter James and count it all joy when we meet trials or suffer trials. I don't know that we gotta handle that one, especially to almost 2 years ago to count it all joy when all of a sudden Masco mass close don't close 6 feet apart. This pew. Not that pew it's it's really challenging but in writing the blog and in managing through this Billy was that something that just kinda kept coming back to your mind would perform hit commercial break. You said hey listen how we handle the covert response is not a gospel issue which we all need to remember that this is not salvific that your your your response.

It has nothing to do with your salvation. Okay so I think it's important to keep the gospel first mentality, but winded James and in that incredible passage of Scripture can start being a guiding post for you, probably shortly after the pandemic began a kind of tied back to was actually teaching pastors in China.

We were walk-through the theology of God and they were asking.

Okay, how do we take this and bring it practically indoor church family and they just gone through a loss of the pastoral bosses life and so they were in the middle of the trial themselves. In this workout took me and it was good for my soul. That was good for bears but I as as we ship this is a church.

I just began to take this message home and that it's a reiterated picked up by the psalmist again in Psalm 119. So we spent the time of shutdown or lifestream walking through Psalm 1 to 19, and be reminded our God is good and doing good that it is good for us to face affliction into to get that message home and have our folks wrestle with that, but it is actually good to face and then what what good things the gods can accomplish through that if we keep her focus there than we can hopefully watch how strong we take our opinions and from these others.

Yes, all referencing James chapter 1 verse 2 to 4, count it all joy when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness, meaning, and adopted say this Billy that nothing gets wasted in God's economy. So when these kind curveballs come at us. You know the Lord can use it so faith produces steadfastness and let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. And in Psalm 119. You referenced states of God you are good and do good. So it how important is it that we just gonna revisit who God is and make me make sure we understand his character absolutely. I mean, I say to our folks all the time that what we know about God should control how we interpret the circumstances of life. And if that controls the sort how we interpret the circumstance of life in order to be really careful when we say something unknown, uncertain, and all this information is flowing out us what we can turn to is what the certainty is the goodness of God is certain and what God will produce in our life when we respond with biblical care and wisdom is going to be good and isn't that kind of the point of James and then Psalm 119, which again this is the blog up the links up for so you guys can go read this is just beautiful. We can hear that truth and the voice of the psalmist. This is an 119. It is good for me that I was afflicted that I might learn your statutes. So when something like COBIT hits us. I think it's we all need to get a double down ago okay there's where were at now and then there's where God wants to lead us to. On the other side of this, whatever that looks like and then what should we so we should actually come to lean into the sanction. We have what it is good for us to be exposed to to be dependent get some of our self-sufficiency stripped away when you face the uncertainty of the trial. You don't know what's can happen your then we actually begin to do what were supposed to be doing asking God to give us wisdom that God we need you and that's one of the things trials remind us of wheat we don't have sufficient sooner so so how do we just starting at the beginning of that passage how we cannot grasp this.

This goal of counting it all joy.

How do we do that Billy what I think we learned accounted joy when we are given come back to what do we know who God is and what he's doing and then when we understand what God's doing the trial it doesn't make the trial joyous in the sense that this is easy to go through what it makes joyful is that we know were going through this in God is doing good in our midst and through our lives, even as we experience hardship yet so this make a practical application of this, count it all joy when you suffer trials of our kind so I mentioned to you earlier that I've got the seven high school aged homeschool classes that I teach hundred 15 students. We sent out an invite about 10 days ago, last minute. Hey, let's have an open house at our house.

It's tonight at 630.

Let's have an open house is coming.

I can be too crazy is, last minute it's December come up close on Christmas. Well we have about 110 RSVPs and we don't live in the White House or something you know we have a decent size house but it's not that big. So there's the preparation for Billy and all the stuff but I know once the students and their parents and family start showing up.

I know there's gonna be a challenge to get through all this, but on the other end of it. I know this blessing and this blessing in the process and I think that's kind of what we need to go right.

We know the Lord's gonna do something and we should be excited about and then it processes to go where James actually goes, that's right. So you lack wisdom.

If you do it is with the question mean we face a pandemic we don't know all the truth. We don't know how it's going to go 14 days flat occur two years later were still dealing with, you know, it's like okay what we need what we need the Lord. We need his wisdom and we need is a church actually rather glad it push us apart.

Close together and pulls together in a place of dependency and humility were we actually pray and ask God to give us wisdom and direct yourselves. Now what what was that like to deal of because you know we should all be asking for wisdom. If you lack that you asked for it.

James makes it perfectly obvious. And then, but in the COBIT situation, whether it's mast on wetware mass 6 feet no 6 feet open the church close the church. You can have a bunch of different Christians that believe that their position is the wise one in the Christian down the street from them thinks it's unwise that their position is wise. How did you navigate that because that's what I saw.

We were so convinced we were right, even when we were facing off against each other what that that is always hard because you're you coming back to to say okay.

Remember, were asking God to give us wisdom and because you are certain information.

The decided this is the best course that's not necessarily wisdom from God. God has revealed covert to us in the Bible right jobs revealed in the Bible as we love one another and that we need to be drawn together through trials not pushed apart. So if were going to push apart on her own individual positions on this. Yeah that actually is contrary yet such a great point. We should be a little bit more like penguins. I guess in the worst.

The weather gets closer together we can were talking Billy got your will be right back, back, and Steve Noble to show theology Thursday with our friends at BJ's seminary in the beautiful Greenville South Carolina and I were talking today to Dr. Billy got your just came on similar pastors and professors that BJ's just stocking up with that which is awesome because they're so driven in the 5 x 5 x 500 goals there take to really create to crank out 500 pastors every five years and just keep that process going because we have I've been trying to remember the stat Billy at with there's more pastors.

I think over the age of 60 or 65 than there are under 40 and when you think about that for a second you see the writing on the wall there were in it, that's can have massive implications for this culture we so many people that listen to the show conservative talk radio Christian talk radio Billy air care about the country gonna save America all that kind of stuff but if you have a shortage in pastors in 10 or 15 or 20 years you think the cultures of loss now way to you don't have enough pastors speaking the truth of God into the people of God is only getting worse. So that's why we are excited department BJ's seminary didn't get all that information to be a part of that. It got a great matching gift program going on in just different ways that you can be a blessing there or I sharing this information with your pastor and if your pastor, please make sure you get to the that the radio page which will get coat hook up with all these different resources seminary.BG\radio also on Facebook itself.

I just want to remind everybody that there is nothing that BJ's seminary has a pastor states a specific pastoral community and Facebook is a close group is called all in daily so I'll put the links up for that as well so you can use them to share that with your pastor, descendent your passÚ some great resources. Pastor don't assume that your pastor everything. Find your pastor odds are it isn't. That's a far more difficult and challenging job than most of us realize and so anything that you can do to encourage them to bless them and just provided you can't tell them what to do, obviously, but just tell them about hey, this is something you might want to check it out and you might be hearing back from them shortly. This anything. So much for tell me about that because there's a lot of great resources there. That's why BG you put it there so I put the link up as well in the Facebook feed today so you have that you could share that with you pastors, but talking to Dr. Billy got your today about the theology of COBIT 19 responses. We've all been dealing with that and that's coming back around. That's the boomerang that keeps coming back around, as were hitting winner. The numbers are skyrocketing all over the place and so this is going to be an issue once again in the church masking not masking vaccinated not vaccinated, you need to you not meet and these things have been a big challenge. That's where talk about it but again Billy thank you so much for your time today and a Merry Christmas to you and her family are crystal students plus to be with you.

Thank you. So we kind of working our way through James counting it all joy which is easier said than done for most of us count it all joy that was kind of the first form part of the formulas were dealing with covert response and how we deal with this inside the church, God's people of been there, done that. This isn't exactly like the Roman Empire, but it is one of the more challenging. I think most of us have been as Christians who happen to live in America so count it all joy. Understanding the gods up to something in all this and then we are talk about seeking wisdom from God. You mentioned something on the break Billy that I wanted to dive into a little bit which was isolation. I've often said over years, especially with men's ministry in an men's struggles that most of us deal with is that isolationist destruction for most of us, Jesus, about the only one I can think of that can handle isolation most of us can't and and and that's been a real destructive factor early on this isolation. You talked about the school is hard to communicate.

It's hard to have unity when everybody's looking at you through a screen, so talk about isolation little bit the effect that's had on the church yet it was a real challenge and I think one of the things that we really began pushing into as a church was to create a culture of discipleship.

We started discipleship group for men and ladies would meet in small groups, 3 to 5 and we had been doing this so when covert hit one of things were able to do is keep the discipleship group happening.

They do it on Zumba start with get together but as as trusted groups began to open up and things like that. We we were able to put air purification systems and all the rooms are school in our buildings and actually provide a safe place for small groups where they could get together so people began to have some opportunities to get back together a little sooner.

Maybe Ben's mother stood and that helped a great deal discipleship not going to ask you on that because you have to realize the destruction of isolation and got figure out a way to facilitate getting people in smaller groups okay. Did you have to deal with as we dealt with this in some small group environments. We were in Billy. Some people want to wear a mask of the people don't want to wear a mask you have to kinda be a little nimble and maybe switch things around so that people are hanging out with people that have a similar position on those things that we we worked with people in the and really begin our big message was we want to love each other respect for people may have different health concerns or reasonings, but we can provide a bigof people could even be six little part. Yet even in a meeting so we were. We are trying to creative some people who needed a sale, they zoomed into the meetings, but we were able maybe a little earlier than some to get some face-to-face human interaction which was helpful but are small groups actually were able to keep interacting throughout that covert shutdown, even if was just and soon they were or texting and ever of it, but it did help their relationship to stay strong and it did help them also to get other perspectives even on the issues that we are talking our working through and talk to Dr. Billy got your today is that professor now at BJ's seminary or walking through this blog post, joy plus wisdom.

James's formula for addressing COBIT 19 and a complex culture and again I think even though that things are calm down and I think people have a lot of fatigue with the vaccine conversation. We don't know when you're fully vaccinated anymore, but this is something that were still in Billy and like I mentioned the winters coming we see the numbers going up. This is something that we can't like think we put this behind us is still a challenge is absolutely and I think with new information comes out with but there's a new variant the work over to another booster or whether you so all those issues, but the nice thing if you can get people to step back is look this it may be new information, but God's instruction hasn't changed and it hasn't surprised God so we may be surprised, but our response still comes back under good you know what you're doing. Give us wisdom and let us love one another through it must advance the gospel bring hope to hopeless people was. This was this a unique opportunity Billy when you were pastoring up in Vermont to Canada have to revisit our relationship with our government and I don't think it's been quite as obvious or a front burner issue as it has been the last year so I know that wasn't in the blog but I was curious, how did you deal we talked a little bit about it on the break on Facebook live in YouTube live but how'd you kinda deal with that because there's there's a lot of tension there right now yeah what it was 11 he was frustrating to see a lot of the our governor come out of the office updates and we would get one thing it would be a little more reasonable or friendly, and also that would shift and so there was a lot of flip-flop was going on that was driving everybody crazy okay what's going be required. What isn't in and then you leave the shopping experience became a nightmare.

During that time just just a lot of tension. I mean we saw community that was very community oriented, very personable, become really cold and isolated drink over at really a lot of negative community effects ON that relationship of government was obviously you were asking for your help to navigate and then be reasonable as we try to enter what you mentioned this on the break Billy that that one time you guys actually called. I guess the governor's office are called somebody there say what about us yeah when they first even began to lift restrictions. They made no mention at all of the church and where like you know we anywhere so we call directly you talk to one of the assistance and and they did respond.

I was very pleased with that. You cauldron the week after they made their update no no regard to the church and that Saturday they came out and said yes churches can open to win and we were able tell our folks and we had a great service on Sunday, the first time back yet. I'm sure yet. I was very emotional for all of us first on my wife and I went back to in person worship. We were shocked at how emotional that was because I guess you just don't realize what you haven't lost it, which sounds like a song that that's certainly certainly something we all experience and then to know what your rights are. I'm always stylistic of Paul when I have this kind of conversation called new when and where to utilize his rights as a Roman citizen which is interestingly enough, how God ended up at one of the ways he got them up to Rome, but we need to know that and not be afraid to ask for it. If it's in the Constitution, we do still have the rule of law. A couple things up that you had in the blog post that I really want to make sure we visit yet a point when we need to unite around his wisdom and the certain truths found in his word and translate them into action. So there's a good a few trees are three of them specifically about the role of prayer in all this.

Yet we we were like stringer morning service know what we did at night as we actually set up zoomed prayer call and so we could have our folks see each other. They could see they can hear each other's voices. We were praying for one another and we are praying for nation and so we began doing that right away so we did not take Sunday night off we came in we set up zoomed and we had people on Lincoln and able to actually lease each other hear each other's voices and then pray together and I thought that was just really important for us both fighting the isolation and also our dependency on God to give us wisdom through was that one of the more intentional seasons of prayer you would seen as a pastor in a church. I think our folks responded to that very well. We understanding our dependency, our lack of wisdom on the situation. Knowing what information we could trust we could now do we respond in recognizing this is a unique time but we it just pointed how much we need to be in that place dependents and me to be a praying church, not just church that occasionally break yeah and I love that point that you made about intentional organize communal prayer, whether consumer, not knowing that were isolated early on. Okay, prayer is the power that we need but we need to do that together such a powerful point when we come back to talk about thinking of others better than yourselves. That's not easy to do and then prioritize love, care and support for other believers.

A few other thoughts as we continue to talk about what's our theological response to the covert pandemic and when it's done inside the church because it's still not going away. I don't think any time soon. You get a lot of forces at work here, and we have to continue to battle what we do as Christians and responsibly that's pleasing to the Lord and witness to the lost culture will be right back in my seat back and Steve Noble to Steve Noble show that wasn't crazy was it Merry Christmas everybody hope you're going to have a wonderful holiday. I'll be here again tomorrow, and then be back on Monday. Tuesday I'll be off the rest of next week. My good buddy Stu Epperson Junior's going to be sent in on Wednesday and that will place the best of chosen Thursday and Friday and up but I'll be back that Monday right after Christmas. God willing today on theology Thursday with our friends at BJ's seminary talking through, theology of covert response, which largely I would say I so know that your professor can be teaching at the seminary ability that the evangelical church in America. You gotta give a grade. How is she handled COBIT in the last year and half what grade would you give her probably a C plus trying to be generous. I think yeah I think we really struggle with this one, and end. I mentioned this before on a personal level. It's been challenging with friends in the body of Christ. Some fellow believers, I think we had all kinds of issues with this and that's why we've been excited to talk to Billy about this today and walked to the blog post that we put the links up joy plus wisdom right of the book of James.

James's formula for addressing COBIT 19 and a complex culture which is certainly true and that's probably an understatement or talk about the role of prayer and to other things and then will wrap up.

I think of others as better than yourselves. Philippians 23 and do not speak evil against one another. James 411 and and that's been a real challenge.

I think for most of us on this one, especially because of the social media stuff and did you guys deal at that social meeting went on some full theology Thursdays on that issue yet. We really did. We tried to lean not one of things I could say honestly door churches listen I have strong opinions. I'm pretty strong personality. They know that they know their pastor. I said so I could sit up there and just tell you my strong opinion, but that really doesn't help you and the fact that I actually say here's my strong opinion. Love your pastor take my opinion that actually isn't well so I had to say, look, we think of others better than ourselves were all gonna look at this work in the process. It we're going to make decisions, but I have to back up to the truth that God gives me say here's the absolutes the rest of this is an absolute it's what I may conclude based on the information I have. But I still have limited information and you mention your purpose in the blog post as well just dealing with talking about is showing some social media restraint is the famous phrase that use did you guys talk about that regularly, because you know this is where because this is one of our challenges as Americans. Billy you know this that you do anything you say anything that's going to impugn my freedom including my freedom of speech my freedom deposed as often as I want Facebook instrument. What or whatever and start telling people to dial it back in the a lot of times in the last two years is like oh you're just not bold and if you just not courageous enough to speak the truth bubble bubble bus 100 you guys handle that because men at that that cause a lot of problems for me because of what I do I post pretty often and I post honestly and boldly but man it's been kind of ugly this little far from perfectly. I mean you had to get people who post something that was you know really. I real strongly stating a case and then there would be some polarization that would take place in I would try you gently speak into that and say hey let's not get polarized over what we don't fully know you know it's okay to hold a strong opinion about this.

I do as well. You could ask.

I'll tell you, but really we we've got to be more graciousness and we gotta speak to each other. We gotta be really careful about throwing those barbs out there without text or email your wits just so easy to over speak and that texting or that social media world and come off in the other person reads it and reads it.

What I was saying that I would be this right and and then we just have this angry bashing of this light, you know, when you're when you're tempted to do that. I said pick up the phone at least hear their voice technology is amazing I can actually see your face right now right that communication and seeing each other is so important in you can't get that just firing away your your message that states your strong opinion while you have a right to say yeah in the social media world is 100 ways that it can go wrong and only a couple ways that goes right.

I mean, the odds are that it's gonna blow up, especially the more contentious the process and I got a deal at that. Personally Billy having a platform where I know my mom thank goodness. Thank you Lord for my wife is called me out on multiple occasions and just simply ask why did you say why did you post that like to say that what what was your motivation there and there's been a few times and I had to just confess and say yeah you know what I did it to get a response because I was angry and and if you have a platform you can use it as a as a weapon sometimes. And that was clearly a violation of Scripture. In first Corinthians or 13 ago okayed. Was there anything loving about what I just did what I love you enough to tell you the truth. The moon was so quick to baptize our lack of love which takes us to our third point prioritize love, care and support for other believers talk about that because I think we need a reminder that you think that comes back. I think you mentioned that one of those with the Lord said, you know, the world soulfully going to know that were his disciples by the love we have for each other. So part of it is we gotta love the truth and we know the truth is found in God's word and we come to issues like pandemic and covert vaccines and everything else your truth out there were not messily sure whose one pelican yes and we have to cut apart is that it recognize you know we we may not know the full picture of the God what God has told me to do is love him love his word love others and if I keep that straight. Then I then I resist on my own fleshly temptation. The think too much of my own personal do you think sometimes Billy that we get is one of the points was, of course, is spend time with other believers.

Absolutes can be really hard meet each other's needs which is super important. When necessary, engage in thoughtful in person correction, which is also sharpening each other. I think sometimes we might overreact to the contention that we both mentioned and that we stop being iron on iron. We said we just try to avoid just avoid conflict whatsoever. And then there's never any kind of awful even though it's might be difficult. Dialogue why think that if I go back to our partner small group discipleship culture was one of those places where it takes time to build that relationship of trust were you trust somebody enough to when they speak in your life. You don't get self-defense. You know, so part of that is what helped us we been working for a couple years building a culture discipleship. We speak truth into each other's lives. So as we face this, we were able to do that within our discipleship groups are more than we could to people who were connected that way you know others who were more isolated work connected to the body very well struggled more in their own responses or even being willing to hear maybe another side or another voice or corrective. But those with in those cultures know those people around him love them and they were much more willing to receive correction if needed more instruction yeah and I think that's if you cannot print any EV processes whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death will cover a multitude of sins. And we have to remember that when we go into that again I'm always going to question my own motivation somebody years ago Billy said to me CV always need to be suspicious of yourself and I get like that wasn't a personal attack. One of the just say to me then it then when I slow down and thought about it I go okay I'm just acknowledging the fact that I can be a Puritan writer once said the seat of every sin exists in every human heart. Well I fall under that umbrella. So I'm capable of far worse things than traps. I think I am in just to be humble enough to go okay. I probably have some issues here but we really struggle with that because I think we've fallen into the trap of the social media world that because you can say something it's right to say something and if you don't say something then you're being a coward.

If you're all truth and no grace or just a bully and I think we must struggle with that. What why do you think we struggle with, restraining ourselves, Billy, and especially in the context of covert why you described it well of said natural struggle. We all have sin, and that some of this at the core being that I'm selfish enough that I will exalt myself first and then my my discernment, my wisdom and so I think that's what he could bicycle God sends these things that just bring us to the end of that knowledge of self and it it humbles us and that's a good thing it's a good thing for me to say I don't have the answer but I trust the God who does, yeah, amen. What a great time and I don't have to have the answer, nor do I have to weigh into everything that people around her weighing into. I don't need to get caught in a trap because it's a trap and it's gonna trap us and where we polarize and we take sides. We play party spirit and we are divided over things of God never intended us to be divided yet at such an important point right there think we divide over things that God never intended us to divide over and that such an important reminder.

What about the positive side of this sort. There some things that we should be looking for here Billy are things that you've seen that the church has grown from is there is there a pot of gold anywhere at the end of this rainbow. I think that humility and dependence in the place to really become a praying people and asking the hops humility. Ask God for wisdom to daily Minnesota day. I don't need wisdom so today I don't need the Lord, I need instruction to handle life in a complex world filled with circumstance.

I don't anticipate and to be able to do that with grace because I know my God is good, knowing my God is good and I can depend on him means that I can handle the circumstances with grace without being overwhelmed by them. Even though their overwhelming such a great point.

What about from a missionary perspective. I know you have a heart for missions and have done that yourself but help us understand what you said about a minute and half left. Let's look at that American culture right now is a missionary in the midst of all the people from COBIT. What should we be focusing on what help us get our hearts and our minds around what I think one of things that helped or what challenges was isolation Us away, but we had to recognize are so many needy hurting people. And if we come selfish. I just focus on how do I respond I get my family throughout. We do this there are so many people around us are looking for answers and and we need really be a light of the gospel to God as the answers. God is good.

He's doing good and you know we can bring that point them to Jesus who loves them died for them and can give them hope in the middle of their homes.

Yeah, especially when we hit the Christmas season because we talk about Merry Christmas and I can say that with a genuine smile my face, absolutely. But there's all a lot of people that the last word used to describe this Christmas season is Mary and I worse now because it COBIT and we need to be sensitive to that. Dr. Billy got her so great to have Jan stay with us for just a minute on the radio show is over will pray with our friends on Facebook, and YouTube is been wonderful having you and congratulations on your new position. Therapy GU seminary excited to see and will do this again in the future. Hopefully look forward to see think you're welcome to stay right there. Will be back tomorrow.

Not exactly sure probably to do a little bit more news. I've been staying away from that for the last week and 1/2 because I can be a glutton, and so can you. But tomorrow there's a lot to talk about. So, God willing will be back tomorrow like my dad always used to say ever forward another program powered by the Truth Network

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