To respond to some of the highlights from the Cessationist Conference.
It is my goal by God's grace to help infuse you with faith and truth and courage to help you stand strong on the front lines. Today's broadcast I'm going to be responding to about 11 clips from the recent Cessationist Conference. I do hope that one of the leaders or participants will be willing to step forward and do an extended face-to-face dialogue with me. We can spend hours laying out each other's positions, making sure we understand one another's positions, and then challenging one another's positions in a gracious, respectful way as people who revere Scripture and revere the God of Scripture.
Hopefully, one will step forward. But these were clips either that were sent to me by friends or from a three-minute video that was called Highlights from the Cessationist Conference. You might say, Dr. Brown, it's not fair to just respond to a quick clip. I mean, after all, there are lengthy arguments. Oh, well, that's why I want to have the lengthy discussion.
But since these clips were pulled as, quote, highlights from the conference or posted as separate memes from the conference, so I'm responding just to kind of get a feel, overview. And to me, no insult intended. It's not even a debate to have in terms of what the Bible says. It's like when I debated a Muslim last year in London, March of last year, who had been calling me out for some time, and we were debating, is Muhammad prophesied in the Bible? I said, it's just not a good debate for you. So you could debate which is the real word of God, the Qur'an or the Bible, or who's the better ethical example, Muhammad or Jesus, and have these debates. I said, but Muhammad's just not prophesied in the Bible unless you want to say what it's about false prophets. So to me, there really is no biblical debate. I've read the best cessationist arguments and in candor, you can't argue it based on scripture. The main thing you have to do is point to charismatic extremes and errors today and things like that.
But in any case, with respect to my brothers who do hold to this, I'm sure among them, some real God fearing people who love the word, love the Lord, they've had their own lives transformed by Jesus, by the Spirit. So out of respect, I'm taking a little time to interact. Before I play the first clip, we are pouring into our October frontline newsletter.
It's going to have a great article about Christians and the elections, excerpts from my book, The Political Seduction of the Church, Hebrew word study, some powerful testimonies. It's free. It's digital. If you're not getting it, go to thelineoffire.org, thelineoffire.org. Click subscribe.
It's that simple and we'll send it your way. All right, I'm not going to mention who said what, which speaker is speaking. These were all clips from the G3 conference. Again, either sent to me by colleagues as they were excerpted online or part of the three minute video of quote highlights from the conference.
Here's clip number one. Church history is clear. And by the way, this poses a huge problem for continuationists. Sinclair Ferguson, in his excellent book on the Holy Spirit, points out that continuationism has no convincing explanation for the disappearance of the miraculous gifts during most of church history. They simply can't explain it. Was the Spirit on vacation?
Of course, you could ask if the Spirit's on vacation, that it's a cessationist conference or something else. But his position is, no, the canon's complete. Those miraculous gifts have ceased. The problem is they never did. They never did cease. And church history is filled with examples. Get Eddie Hyatt's book, H-Y-A-T-T, Two Thousand Years of Charismatic Christianity.
They never ceased. There were changes in church structure that gave less opportunity for body ministry. It became more hierarchical, more led by a bishop and the congregation became more participants. You had the clergy laity distinction. These things definitely caused a decrease in gifts over the centuries. But they continued.
Just a handful of examples. First, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trifl, written around A.D. 160. Quote, For the prophetic gifts remain with us even to the present time. All right, this is mid second century.
Or Irenaeus of Lyon in against heresies. So around 180 A.D. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils so that those who have been thus cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church. This is what, 80 years plus after the death of the last apostle? Others have foreknowledge of things to come. They see visions and other prophetic expressions. Others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them and they are made whole. Moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up and remained among us for many years. We do also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages.
How about this? Basil the Great, 350 A.D. The Spirit enlightens all, inspires prophets, gives wisdom to lawmakers, consecrates priests, empowers kings, perfects the just, exalts the prudent, is active in gifts of healing, gives life to the dead, frees those in bondage, turns foreigners into adopted sons. It was not long after that that Augustine, writing The City of God, had to change his views because they documented over 70 healings in a period of two years. So he changed his views of the miraculous. Just this morning, I got an email from Dr. Sam Storms and it was his message that he gave at a Remnant radio conference earlier in October on spiritual gifts in church history. And its typical scholarship of Dr. Storms detailed 14 pages of notes here with one quote after another, after another, after another.
I mean, you name it. Various church leaders, one after another, refuting the heretic Marcion saying, hey, we have gifts of the Spirit operating in our midst. Hippolytus, who died in 236 A.D., he sets forth guidelines for the exercise of healing gifts, insisting that, quote, if anyone says I received the gift of healing, hands shall not be laid upon him. The dead shall make manifest if he speaks the truth. So let's see, you have the gift.
OK, here's how we test it. Again, church leader after church leader, too many quotes to read. And this has all been documented over and over again. So it is a total myth that the gift ceased. Some waned and there are even reasons for the waning. And look, if you're a Protestant, if you believe in the Reformation, you'd have to say things as important, as important as justification by faith got largely sidelined through parts of church history. All right. But first, we base everything on scripture, number one. But this argument, it does never like to stand on historically.
And of course, the last hundred fifty years plus, there's been a massive outpouring of the Spirit around the world, which is becoming increasingly hard to deny, which is why I was not surprised when an African caller now living in America, African Christian living in America, called me a few months ago and was so surprised to hear this doctrine of cessationism. What's that? It's like you live in the city of Seattle. You get rain all the time. And there's a conference.
There is no rain today. It's like, what? What are you talking about?
We live in the rain all the time. So increasingly, cessationism is going to be looked at as a theological, historical relic, because the words against it, categorically the words against it and the spirits against it, and more and more history will be against it as well. OK, let's play clip number two. Here's my question. Charismatics claim that God speaks to them, gives them words of knowledge, divine revelation knowledge, about minute details in the lives of people around them. And yet God never bothered to give any of them a heads up about what Mike Bickel was doing. About what Robert Morris was doing.
And Sam Storms and Michael Brown, two of the more respected names in the charismatic movement, they sang the praises of both Mike Bickel and Robert Morris. And I'm not laying this at their feet. I'm not saying they should have known. These men were deceived, but here's the problem. In their theology, God talks to them all the time.
So God will give you a word of knowledge about someone's bummed toe out in the audience, but does not give you a heads up about what is going on in the lives of your closest friends. Yeah, so first thing, and by the way, because my name was mentioned, Sam Storms, that clip is from Justin Peters and I appreciate the way that he spoke respectfully of Sam and me, and is saying, hey, of course we wouldn't know this because the Holy Spirit really doesn't show us these things. And Mike and Robert were not my closest friends.
Mike was very close with Sam. But of course, to hear any of this was a total shock to us. Absolutely.
No question whatsoever. And it's a fair question to ask what the Holy Spirit revealed. Let me first say that I'm an eyewitness to many, many, many, way more than I can remember, examples of beautiful words that the Holy Spirit spoke that were very personal, that were very relevant, that the person speaking them had no way of knowing or the person speaking them to me or God speaking through me to someone.
We had no way of knowing any of this. And they were personal and they were beautiful and they were life changing. And you give the word and says, does this mean anything to you?
Next thing, the person sobbing and they tell you the whole story of why it was so incredibly meaningful and how their life was dramatically, radically, gloriously changed. So I rejoice in that. And the Holy Spirit really is doing that. That's first thing.
The second thing. It's not our information. It's not up to us to know it's the Holy Spirit who reveals and speaks as he does. One of my dearest friends, prayer warrior missionary, was my assistant years back. God's given him words about strangers, strangers.
There were some Christians visiting their missions base where they are overseas in Asia. And my friend was absolutely convinced that one of the men there on that team was a pedophile and it struggled with pedophilia. And and they all denied it. The man denied it. He said, I know it. Finally, the guy broke down crying. It's true.
I've struggled with attraction to children. He's had words like that revealing sin for years for strangers. And yet two people from the Asian country where they are, two people that worked with that were embezzling money and they didn't even know it. He said, Dr. Brown, how is it God's given me many words for others and those right close to me?
I didn't even know. I can't explain it because I don't generate the information. And and sometimes God's giving people time to repent.
There are all kinds of reasons. We know very little. The Holy Spirit shows us very little. We have the Bible and the Holy Spirit shows this thing. But in terms of what's out there, he shows us very little.
But look, I haven't wanted to weigh in on the situation with Steve Lawson. I grieve for hearing any leader that that's fallen. I grieve. I think I searched my own heart.
I thank God for mercy in my life and the lives of others. But you could say, all right, wasn't there discernment? You were with people. Shouldn't you shouldn't be just as a spiritual people have some level of discernment. How could people have had him preach at the most prestigious pulpits in these reform circles and cessation of circles? They didn't know. Listen, God does not reveal everything to us.
He reveals very little. And it's for his purposes, not ours. So I appreciate the question. But of course, it has nothing to do with what does the Bible say? The Bible is crystal clear.
Gifts continue until Jesus returns. And it doesn't answer the question of what happens in your own midst. Shouldn't you just in your relationship with God, knowing the word of had more discernment? Hey, we're human beings.
We don't see a lot. And the Holy Spirit only reveals so much. That's just the truth. I'm being honest.
Be right back. This is Michael Ellison, founder of Trivita Wellness. I want you to hear an amazing testimony from my friend James Robison. And most all of you will know of him. He and his wife, Betty, host the Life Today television program. Now, here is James. Let me tell you about a miracle I experienced. My friend Michael Ellison, he and his wife are our 40 year plus best friends.
Well, let me just say this to you. I had so much pain with what was called tennis elbow that I could hardly reach over and pick up the phone without pain, without it hurting me. I couldn't pick up something to drink, a glass of tea or anything.
It was very difficult to do anything without wearing a tight strap. And then Michael shared the nopal cactus juice with me, nopal. I began drinking about that much in the morning in the glass and that much later in the day. And in three months, I was a different person. I have now gone more than 10 years with no pain, not better. Well, I have no joint pain. I am telling you, it did something to the inflammation in my body that was undeniable. That's just my testimony. But that's been more than 10 years with no pain.
Matter of fact, if I miss for some foolish reason, a few days, I can feel it creeping back that fast. So give it a try. See if it helps relieve your pain. I hope it does like it has mine because it worked for me.
Nopalaya is supported by clinical studies for lowering inflammation and improving mobility, flexibility and range of emotion in the neck, back and joints for less reliance on pain medication and improved quality of life. Call 800-771-5584 and use promo code BROWN25 to receive 25% off your order. As a new customer, 100% of your order goes to support the line of fire.
Call 800-771-5584 or go online to TriVita.com. This is how we rise up. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Welcome back to the line of fire. Shout out to TriVita. Thank you, our great co-sponsor TriVita. Thank you for your great wellness products.
They are part of my daily life and routine. Thanks for your generosity towards our listeners and viewers. Hey, today is October 8th, which means my newest book, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel is now available. It will really lay out in tangible, practical form how to have the difficult conversations on the most difficult issues from abortion to gay, bi, trans issues to race issues. How we do it. How we handle opposition, rejection for the gospel.
How we reach out with compassion while resisting with courage. I think you'll find it super helpful. So the book is now available in all different formats. Wherever you get your books, it's also in audio form and e-forms. Wherever you get your books, Hearts of Compassion, Backbones of Steel is now available.
Alright, let's go to clip number three. These are quote highlights from the Cessationist Conference. Cessationists argue that it is neither the Spirit's plan nor his normal pattern to distribute any of the miraculous spiritual gifts that are in the New Testament era to Christians and churches today. Alright, so again, the problem with that is the Bible is 100% against it.
And the outpouring of the Spirit taking place worldwide is 100% against that. So, 1 Corinthians 14, 1, this is after Paul is taught on the more excellent way, the way of love. Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts to the Spirit, especially prophecy. That's a command, friends. That's an exhortation. We should eagerly desire them.
You say, well, I'm Sola Scriptura. Well, what is the Bible telling us to do? To eagerly desire gifts to the Spirit, especially prophecy. Paul reiterates that later, and he says in the same chapter, in 1 Corinthians 12, the gifts are given as the Spirit wills.
It's for the good of the body. It's for the glorification of Jesus. It can play a role in evangelism as well. And, I mean, for years and years and years, I'm thinking back to the 80s, doctoral dissertations being done and finding Hindus around the world, a great majority coming to the Lord through a healing or an exorcism, either having experienced it or being an eyewitness to it, or someone that they knew was healed or delivered. I've been to different parts of the world and met the people who were miraculously saved in all these different ways. And they'd all be shocked. What do you mean, cessationism?
What does that even mean? Because they've been touched by the miraculous power. But the bottom line is that the gifts are explicitly until Jesus returns, until we see him face to face, until we know him even as we are known, 1 Corinthians 13. 1 Corinthians 1, that Corinthians was zealous for the gift waiting for the return of Jesus. And then Acts 2, beginning in verse 14, Peter says that this outpouring that's being experienced is for all flesh for the last days, which is a time from the death and resurrection of Jesus until his return.
This outpouring is for the last days. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. The Holy Spirit will be poured on all flesh. Your old men will dream dreams.
Your young men will see visions. So this is the norm. This was the pattern until Jesus returns. And it's attested. These things attested through church history. They were heavier in the first few centuries than in other centuries. But I mean, for hundreds and hundreds of years, they were attested. I was just, during the break, looking at example after example after example from Sam Storm's message. It's well-researched and these are documented quotes.
They're really not in dispute. And then the last hundred fifty plus years, great outpouring. I've read accounts of outpouring in the mid-1800s in India and tongues and prophecy.
But then you have accounts even before that. And of course, healings taking place, miraculous healings through the ages, through the laying on of hands. So the pattern's been there, but scripture is explicit on it. And Acts 2, 39, the promise, what promise? The promise of forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit. The promise is to you and your children and all that are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call. So until he returns, this remains the scriptural norm.
Alright, clip number four. God's word doesn't need help from your dreams or your emotions. It doesn't need your personal revelation. It is sufficient. You don't need to chase new voices or new ideas or new truths because the truth has already been given once for all.
It is in the pages of the book. The living, breathing Word of God. Does the Bible save you or does Jesus save you? Do you preach Jesus from the Bible and then does he save you? Is the Bible your savior? Do you have a worship service and praise the Bible or do you praise the God of the Bible? We praise the God of the Bible. And the Bible tells us who this God is and what he does and who we are and our sinfulness and our need for a savior. But the Bible doesn't save us. The Bible is not our savior.
We don't have the Lord and savior Bible. We have the Lord and savior Jesus. We worship and praise God. We praise Father, Son, and Spirit. We thank God for his word. We praise God for his word. But the Bible did not die for us and rise from the dead.
Jesus did. So would you all agree with that? That Jesus is the one who saves. We preach what's in the Bible but Jesus is the one who saves. Okay, hopefully we all agree with that. It's not Father, Son, and Holy Bible, right?
We agree with that. So the Bible has its function, but I have fellowship with God. Yes, through the Word, but I have fellowship with God. And it is God who saves me and God who forgives me. And the Bible describes those things and lays these things out.
So hopefully we're all in agreement on that pretty basic. So I'm not looking for anything else to do with what the Bible does. I'm not looking for any revelation of God outside of what's in Scripture. I'm not looking for an understanding of human sinfulness outside of what's in Scripture. I'm not looking for an understanding of Messianic prophecy.
I can just go down the list, one thing after another. I'm not looking for anything outside of what's in the Bible. But the Bible tells me I have a relationship with God. The God who speaks, 2 Corinthians 13, 14, speaks of the koinonia, the fellowship of the Spirit. Koinonia, that's something where there's communion, there's communication. I'm pouring out my heart to God. He's sharing his heart with me. It's beautiful. It's wonderful. Forget prophecy.
Forget healing. Just that intimacy. God's sharing his heart. It's been life-changing for me. It's key things that I've had to know and understand, getting inside of God, spoken in the Word. Now the Holy Spirit applying it in my life beautifully, wonderfully. In John 10, 27, the words are active, present tense in Greek. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. So we do hear his voice. He is speaking according to the Bible. So the Bible does what it can only do as the Word. I'm not looking for more revelation or something new, something exciting. In fact, world surveys done indicate it, that Charismatics and Pentecostals read the Bible more on a daily basis than non-Pentecostals and Charismatics, by the way.
Surveys that were done in multiple nations some years ago, I cite them in Authentic Fire, which was my response to Pastor MacArthur's Strange Fire. But in any case, the Bible also tells me to eagerly desire the gifts because they glorify God and help others. It's not for me.
It's for others. And the Bible tells me that the Holy Spirit will be poured out. So according to the Bible, I embrace everything God has.
According to the Bible, the elders of the congregation should lay hands on sick people and pray the prayer of faith, and the sick will be healed, according to the Bible. James, Jacob, the fifth chapter. So I'm going by the book, I'm going by the written word, and because I'm so the scriptura, you have to show me in the Bible, where I have a direct command to follow the way of love and eagerly desire the gifts of the Spirit, you have to show me a command that says don't do it.
I wasn't going to follow the last command. If I have an explicit command in the New Testament that was not for a specific person, specific situation, but for all believers, or a promise like John 14, 12, where Jesus says, whoever believes in me, the Greek phrase repeated in the New Testament is universal. Whoever believes in me, the works I do, he'll do also, and greater works than easily do because I go to the Father.
Well, I'm going to expect that in God's way, in His plan, in His will, as I believe Him and trust Him, that He will work supernatural things through me, also for His glory, for the honor of Jesus' name. All right, we've gone through four clips. You say, Dr. Brown, it's not fair. You should go back and forth. I want to.
I've been trying to do it since strange fire. It's now 11 years trying to have a conversation with one of the leaders that have been at one of these conferences. Hopefully, it will still happen, not to have an argument, not to win a debate, but to say, for the good of the body, let's really lay things out. You think I'm misunderstanding you. I think you're misunderstanding me. We're missing each other.
We're misinterpreting scripture. Let's challenge each other. Let's do it for the good of the body, the glory of God.
Let's get clarity. We'll be right back. This is Michael Ellison, founder of Tributa Wellness. I want you to hear an amazing testimony from my friend, James Robison, and most all of you will know of him. He and his wife, Betty, host the Life Today television program. Now, here is James. Let me tell you about a miracle I experienced. My friend, Michael Ellison, he and his wife are our 40-year-plus best friends.
Well, let me just say this to you. I had so much pain with what was called tennis elbow that I could hardly reach over and pick up the phone without pain, without it hurting me. I couldn't pick up something to drink, a glass of tea or anything.
It was very difficult to do anything without wearing a tight strap. And then Michael shared the Nopal cactus juice with me, Nopalaya. I began drinking about that much in the morning in a glass and that much later in the day, and in three months I was a different person. I have now gone more than ten years with no pain. Not better, well, I have no joint pain. I am telling you it did something to the inflammation in my body that was undeniable, and that's just my testimony. But that's been more than ten years with no pain.
As a matter of fact, if I miss for some foolish reason a few days, I can feel it creeping back that fast. So give it a try. See if it helps relieve your pain.
I hope it does like it has mine because it worked for me. Nopalaya is supported by clinical studies for lowering inflammation and improving mobility, flexibility, and range of emotion in the neck, back, and joints for less reliance on pain medication and improved quality of life. Call 800-771-5584 and use promo code BROWN25 to receive 25% off your order as a new customer 100% of your order goes to support the line of fire. Call 800-771-5584 or go online to TriVita.com. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. I've got five or six more clips that I want to play for you. One quick note, we'll be posting this on YouTube. It won't be on radio tomorrow, but we'll be posting this on YouTube.
God willing, tomorrow. Let me tell you what's coming. I get criticized a lot for appearing on Benny Hinn's TV show years ago. That was a mistake. I wanted to reach his audience and talk about hyper grace and things like that, but the amount of flak it brought and misunderstanding, that was a mistake. In any case, I've addressed that many, many years ago and have publicly shared my clear differences and concerns with Benny Hinn. I get attacked for being a friend of Sid Roth. I fully understand that there are guests on his TV show that have very controversial views, to say the least.
I fully understand that. Sid once said to me, I don't agree with every guest I've ever had on. He's done hundreds of interviews, but I don't watch the show. I am good friends with Sid and know him as a man of God, best of my knowledge over 40 years, living a Godly life, not enriching himself on the ministry with a real heart for souls, a genuine burden, hate sin. That's what I base my friendship on over these years, but I get attacked for that.
The last few years, I taught a couple of times for Todd White and I've gotten really attacked for that. He's accused of being a charlatan and a leg grower. I was down with him a couple of weeks ago and I said, hey, let me record a conversation with you about leg growing. First, we talk about his testimony, and then towards the end, we get into the leg growing part. We'll post that tomorrow. It's not to prove a point, just I'm with him. You can hear out of the horse's mouth.
You can come to your own conclusions. All right, but that's going to be posted on YouTube tomorrow. So how do I get that? I don't watch on YouTube. Just go to YouTube and search for the line of fire. Dr. Brown, you'll see our channel. Just hit subscribe and then click the bell.
And this way you'll be notified when the when the video is posted. All right. Let us go now to clip number five from the cessationist conference in a corporate worship service. We are not the primary actors. Corporate worship is not somehow us performing for God. That's paganism. We do not call God down to us when we worship. Rather, God calls us up to him spiritually through faith, the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Now, again, it's just a short clip, but it was pulled as a highlight. So I guess it's meant to be representative.
I hopefully there's more context to it because it strikes me as very bizarre. Of course, God pulls us up. We're not pulling him down in a negative way. He lifts us up.
But of course, we're participants. We're told first Timothy two to lift holy hands in prayer. Psalm forty seven. Clap your hands to the Lord. Psalm 150.
Everything has breath. Praise the Lord. Dance to him. Play the stringed instruments.
Hit the cymbals. Shout his name. Praise his name. Speak of his goodness. Tell of his goodness.
It says in Psalm twenty two that your shave to heal or to Israel. God, the holy one, inhabits the praises of his people. So as we praise and worship him, he does come in our midst. He does visit us.
He does touch us. That's one of the saddest things that this modern version of cessationism says that doesn't relate to feeling the presence of God here. He inhabits the praises of his people. Psalm twenty two. Psalm sixteen in his presence is fullness of joy.
The Hebrew Soviets. It's a satiation of joy. So he inhabits the praise of his people in his presence is fullness of joy.
And you might attend the joy. The Lord is our strength. So there are times when the Holy Spirit moves.
The Holy Spirit fails. The Holy Spirit touches. The believers are filled with the spirit.
Acts two is they pray in Acts four. They're filled with the spirit again and the place where they're praying is shaken. So God comes in power.
And that's what we know as times of visitation. That's what we know as a seasons of revival and outpouring. What was the Great Awakening? What were the outpourings at Yale University in history? What were the other outpourings over the centuries? Outpourings that are almost universally recognized among Protestant believers as being genuine.
You know, argue about the zoos, the street or other things. Fine. But God comes in a real way. We've experienced it. And I've been with believers. Suddenly the Lord moves in the room. Everybody's on their face weeping, overcome by his presence. I remember being in one service where it's just kind of dead and people had sat down. We were only standing during worship.
It's just people weren't engaged. And the worship leader began to sing, crown him with many crowns. And suddenly it's just we are aroused. We were stirred. The Lord Spirit came. We just all stood to our feet. It almost took the roof off with our praise.
I feel so sad for those who've never experienced that. And again, it's not instead of the Bible. The Bible speaks of God's manifest presence. You say, but he's omnipresent. He's ubiquitous. He's everywhere.
Yes. But he manifests himself in certain ways. He comes in power in certain ways. It's throughout the Bible that this happens in seasons of outpouring, seasons of visitation. The leader even speaks of times of refreshing and actually times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord.
So there are these seasons of outpouring of an unusual divine visitation. So on the one hand, he fills the universe with his presence, fills the whole universe with his glory. Then he works secretly among us by his spirit, saving, convicting, changing lives. Cessations would agree with that, that the Holy Spirit's moving powerfully to save and convict and sanctify.
So he's doing that. Even though he's omnipresent, he's acting in specific ways at times, and he manifests himself in power. He comes into the midst of his people in beautiful ways, and it's something we can experience. I believe him whether I feel him or not.
I trust him whether I feel him or not. He's true. The word is true. End of subject.
But it's beautiful when he makes himself know it. It's so sad to me that some have never experienced that, and they just think it's emotions. All right, clip number six from the Cessationist Conference. The very fact that there is even a debate today as to whether or not the miraculous gifts continue to be in operation is self-evident proof that they don't. Because if they were in operation, dear friends, there wouldn't be any debate. Every single one of us would have to acknowledge that, yes, real signs and wonders taking place, they're happening. But not only would we have to acknowledge it, the world would have to acknowledge it.
You know, again, I don't want to impugn the sincerity of the speakers or the genuineness, or I know some, if I've interacted personally, they've been so grieved over false claims of healing, they've been grieved seeing believers go to a healing service and not get healed and be disappointed and wonder if God is even true. I appreciate that. I appreciate that burden.
I share it as well. There have been abuses. I grieve over those. I've called out false prophecies and those falsely call themselves prophets and taking flak for it. So, yes, I recognize that. My book Playing with Holy Fire is the most recent one, 2018, addressing abuses in the Charismatic Pentecostal Movement, so I don't deny that. And I know that's what fuels some of the fire of some of the speakers at the Cessationist Conference.
I appreciate that. I genuinely do, and I've said it to their faces that I appreciate that burden and that concern for the sick and for others whose faith gets shattered or tested unnecessarily because of false claims. That being said, with all respect, that's a bizarre argument. The fact that there's a debate proves that the gifts aren't real. I could turn it around and say the fact that there's even a debate proves that Cessationism is not real, because we're not having a debate about the existence of unicorns because everyone knows there are no unicorns. We're not having a debate about whether Santa Claus comes through chimneys on Christmas because we know that's just a myth. So I could turn it around and say the very fact we're having a debate proves that there's something to debate.
But let's take this further. People debate whether God exists. But if there really was a God, then everyone would know it and everyone would have to acknowledge it. And the Bible says, the fool said in his heart, there is no God. Well, there is a debate. Many people don't believe there is a God. There's a debate as to whether the Bible is the word of God. Does that mean it's obviously not? There's a debate whether Jesus rose from the dead.
Does that mean he didn't? Let's say if there's a debate over the gifts, then that means they're not here. So first, the argument is self-defeating because you could flip it on its head. The next thing is that I could raise all these counter arguments about all these other things debated.
But then here's the deal. There are many parts of the world where there is no debate. What do you mean debate? What do you mean debate? What is Cessationism?
People have never heard of it and it's bizarre when they hear it. What? But Jesus is doing this and the Holy Spirit is doing this. That's how he saved me and he healed my mother and gave my uncle this prophetic word.
I was healed. What do you mean there's a debate? What debate? So many parts of the world, they would be baffled to hear there is a debate.
But here's the other thing. How many of you that say the miraculous gifts are not the norm for today? They don't continue today. It's not that God would never heal someone, etc. But there's going to be no prophecy and healing is not the norm. So have you really studied the claims? You can't just dismiss everyone who says this has happened.
I asked the question. I posted on X and I said the Bible is 100% clear to me that Cessationism is false, that continuationism is the position. By the way, the very organizers of the G3 conference posted on X, we're just going back and forth a little, and he said, yes, the New Testament is continuationist, but the canon wasn't completed. He said, well, if the New Testament is continuationist, and we're still the scriptural, then that ends the subject right there.
That settles it for me. Plus the evidence of the Old Testament, which is another thing to get into. But here's what's really interesting. There are so many documented miracles, so many cases, one after another, after another, after another, after another.
They simply can't be denied. If the two-volume study of Craig Keener is too dense to read, get his one-volume study, Miracles Today, and check the documentation, even if here and there you go to question something. Craig's a careful scholar, one of the world's foremost New Testament scholars, as you know.
So read through Miracles Today or check the documentation in Randy Clark's Eyewitness to Miracles, including some of the academic peer-reviewed studies that were done where people went from, I'm talking about scientific doctor studies with equipment going to Mozambique and then monitoring people, their hearing, their vision, before prayer, after prayer, documenting it, publishing it in peer-reviewed journals, the evidence. And when I posted on X, I said, okay, I'm 100% sure of what Scripture says, that these things continue for today. How many of you, by your own experience, confirm that? So the word is the word, but by your own experience, confirm it. Those who said absolutely yes were better than five to one of those who said absolutely no. So those saying their own experience confirms it by roughly or even better than five to one. You're going to say all those people are dreaming, all those people are deceived, all those people are making it up, and on and on it goes. There's a mountain of tens of millions of people, probably in the hundreds of millions, who have been the recipient of God's grace through a spiritual gift to them, through them, around the world. And the more you look at it, the more you realize there is no debate.
The Bible's clear, and experience backs this thing. Do we want to see more? Yes. Do we want to clean up Samara?
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Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, I got a bunch of clips left. These were, quote, highlights, and I'm not saying that facetiously. I put in quotes highlights because that's what it was called from the Cessationist Conference, just like a three-minute video. So I'm going to get to as many as I can.
Next clip, let's go. As we think about the very subject before us, cessationism, oftentimes we are critiqued. We're critiqued from people out there even within the circles of evangelicalism claiming that we are simply guilty of maybe the offshoots of Boltmans, rationalism, or maybe functional deists who employ some sort of anti-supernatural hermeneutic.
But that could not be farther from the truth. So what's interesting with that, I've never run into the Boltmanian one, but Craig Keener has pointed to earlier rationalistic ways of thought, and it's pretty well documented by church historians that one of the reasons for the Reformation's movement towards the non-miraculous was a reaction against Catholic claims of miracles. You basically don't have cessationism and Catholicism and Greek orthodoxy, by the way, and that's a whole other debate, what's happening there, what's real, what's not.
It's a whole other discussion. But that, you want to get into Craig Keener's two-volume miracle study in terms of the rationalistic roots of modern cessationism and then just look at the evidence and come to your own conclusions. So I believe these brothers and sisters believe in the supernatural power of God, that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, that the miracles in the Bible really happened, and that God is working miraculously to transform sinners today and sovereignly at work in the world. They believe that. But is there a root of rationalism?
It's a fair question, fair question to ask. All right, next clip. The triune God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass. Every event that takes place in time is according to God's eternal, unconditional, immutable, and exhaustive decree. All right, that's another subject, and to get more back and forth on that, go to YouTube and type in Dr. White, Dr. Brown, predestination.
Dr. White, Dr. Brown, predestination. There's a debate a couple hours long at Southern Evangelical Seminary some years back where Dr. White and I debated this subject and debated some of these very points there. So this is not a cessationist continuationist point, but let me say I absolutely disagree with that point. I differ with it passionately based on scripture. No, I do not believe that every woman raped at October 7th, so one year ago, in the Hamas massacre, that every woman raped was raped by the explicit decree and will of God.
No, I don't believe it. No, I don't believe that whole families that were tortured and burned alive and babies that were slaughtered, that that was done by the express decree of God. I find many things in scripture where God explicitly says, I had nothing to do with that, that was not my heart, that was not my will, that was not my plan, and he made clear I wanted something else, but you chose evil and these are consequences.
So that's an aside, but I categorically differ with that comment. The guy that rapes a little girl and buries her alive, no, I do not believe he did that, that girl was raped and buried alive by the express will of God. It's contrary to the revelation of God in scripture. So I strongly differ, but you'll hear good debate from two friends, Dr. White and Dr. Brown, predestination search for that on YouTube.
All right, next clip. That whole notion that the Spirit doesn't give any gifts today, that's how they cast us. That's the straw man that they argue, thinking that that's what any of us would teach, and we all hang out in robust cessationist circles, and I've never met what I would call a hyper cessationist, somebody who believes the Spirit of God is not doing anything.
Ah, yes, understood, understood. But if you say the Holy Spirit will never speak to anyone under any circumstance outside of the Bible directly, the illumination of scripture by the Spirit, or just the plain sense of the text just looking at you, if you say that, then that is a hardline cessationist, and it's a position that's even unusual for cessationists in past church history. If you actually make that claim, so that here's a grieving widow in agony of heart, and bereaved, and the Holy Spirit speaks to her personally, and gives her a word of comfort, not directly quoting scripture, but gives her the exact word of comfort she needed, or someone calls and says, the Lord just spoke to me to share this with you, and they begin to weep, that's, I can't believe he shared it, that was my husband's famous verse, it was his favorite verse, and when you just quoted that to me, but I was directed by the Lord to share that with you, and he also says this, yes, that's so much for the Lord. If you deny that, that that can ever happen, and that's the position I understand being espoused by contemporary cessationists, that the Holy Spirit will never speak to anyone outside of direct scripture, then that is a radical hardline cessationism that's even extreme beyond past generations of cessationists. Also, if you say you don't feel the Lord's presence in worship, and the Holy Spirit moving in our midst, and that's just emotion, I would also say that is hardline cessationism, and that's what's so sad to me.
I'm not in a condescending way, you might feel bad for me because you think I'm deceived. From the heart, it's with love, with respect, with honor, it's not condescending, but there's so much more God has, and your life could be so enriched, and I believe you could be used even more effectively, word and spirit, not either or, word and spirit. You say, I agree with that. I say you don't agree fully with what the word says about the Spirit.
All right, we go to the next clip. There is no warrant then for saying they are still apostles today. Indeed, if anyone claims to be an apostle today, we should be concerned, for such a claim opens the door to false teachings and to the abuse of authority. Now, there are plenty of Charismatics Pentecostals who don't believe they're apostles today, so that's a separate debate. From my own view, I deal with Dr. Joe Mater and others, go to NARandChristiannationalism.com.
NARandChristiannationalism.com. You could read what we believe and don't believe about apostles. Look, when you read the New Testament, there are quite a few people called apostles who are not of the 12. I mean, Acts 14, 14, Paul and Barnabas are called apostles. There are others called apostles. So they were emissaries, and so Barnabas was not one of the 12.
Barnabas was not Paul, for that matter. They're called apostles. So we just distinguish between the 12 and these others called apostles. I believe they've been here through church history. I believe Hudson Taylor was an apostle. I believe John Wesley was an apostle.
Different ones, they were planters, they were forerunners. I believe they've been here through church history. Yes, there could be abuse, and there have been abuses with the apostle doctrine, modern apostles. But how many abuses have there been with modern pastors? In Hebrews 13, 17, you submit to those in authority. I've said don't touch the anointed, don't touch the pastor. So long before I was hearing about apostles, I was seeing abuses with pastors. So we've got to be careful about spiritual abuse, abusive leadership on all fronts. And I have a whole chapter in Playing with Holy Fire saying if you're in a church like this and you've got these trademarks of spiritual abuse, get out of there and run. All right, keep going. We've got time for more.
But our minds, we who believe the Bible, we who want the text to so influence everything we believe, we are to be so saturated in the Bible that our thoughts, our motives, our manners, and the way we worship all comes from God's Word. Yeah, I love that. So that was our last clip? Yeah, perfect. Thank you.
Great job, team. I love that quote. I embrace it. Oh, yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. You know, I've just been re-memorizing or I should say refreshing passages that I've memorized over the years. You know, Proverbs 4, Proverbs 4, 20 to 22, verses like that where there's just have the Word in your heart, in your mind. Don't let it out of your sight. Don't let it out of your sight. Joshua, this book of the Torah will not depart from your reciting meditat day and night.
And it goes on from there. Or Psalm 1, from there, the light is in the law of the Lord. Just reviewing these last night, just refreshing my mind to make sure I had Psalm 91 properly memorized in Hebrew. And, you know, John 15, 7, Jesus said, If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask what you will be done for your cautious.
3, 16, that the word of God dwell in you, the word of Christ dwell in you richly. And I love it. Yes. Yes. Amen.
Absolutely. What's what's amazing, though, is the more that I study the word, the more that I look at scripture, the clearer it is that the Holy Spirit is working miraculously to the more I and the more I'm in the word, immersed in the word, studying the word, meditating on the word, praying over it for a practical application in my life, for better understanding, praying for the to absorb what's written and to be the man God wants me to be and to understand who God is rightly. And praying over it, studying it in Hebrew and Greek and do my best to in the fear and reverence of God to understand his words.
The more I read it, the more overwhelmingly clear it is to me. God is the healer and that he loves to heal miraculously and it glorifies him. It's a sign of his compassion that points to the risen Jesus and that he's speaking prophetically and in dreams and visions. To my knowledge, I've never had a prophetic dream. Certain things I've seen in the spirit, I've seen many things in my mind's eye that God was showing me that came to pass. I've not had an open vision in that sense, like a book of Revelation kind of thing. I don't have prophetic dreams, but I've heard his voice so many times, so beautifully, so wonderfully.
And in ways that have absolutely changed my life and saved my life. So even aside from the outward demonstration of gifts, I so long for everyone to experience everything the Bible tells us should be our experience as a person of the word. I have no choice but to be a person of the spirit, the word and spirit together. Jesus says the father is looking for people who worship him in spirit and truth. So can we all pray whoever we are? Cessacious continuations. Lord, we want everything you have for us today so we can most effectively glorify Jesus and live in harmony with your word. Is that a prayer? We can all pray.
