The Biblical Basis for Self Defense

Hi, this is Roy Jones with ManTalk Radio Podcast. Our mission is to break down the walls of race and denomination. Your chosen Truth Radio Broadcast will be starting in just a few seconds. Thank you. This is the Truth Network.

Get ready. It's one of America's most important, influential, and respected voices on cultural and political issues. An apologist, Christian political advocate, and author, here is the founder and chairman of the Citizens for America Foundation, Dr. Chris Hughes.

Hello and welcome to Christian Perspectives. Chris Hughes and I'm excited to have you here today because we're going to talk about an issue that is very important to me. If you listen to the show, you know that I am a strong defender of the Second Amendment and there are a lot of great organizations, but one of the organizations that I'm a member of and I'm a lifetime member is Gun Owners of America. Over the last year, really a couple years now, I've developed a friendship with a guy named Jordan Stein, who's my guest today.

He's a neat guy. Not only does he believe in the Second Amendment like me, but Jordan is also a strong follower of Jesus Christ. He and his wife travel around the country encouraging Christians and others to defend the Second Amendment and self-defense. You're going to want to go get a notebook and take notes today because as a Christian, on this show, we talk about the Christian perspective. What does the Bible say on issues and how can we apply that to our lives? Today, Jordan and I are going to talk about the biblical basis of self-defense.

Call your friends, tell them to get on, take notes because we're going to jump in here in just a minute. But first, I want to thank our sponsor, Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. They host our studios of Christian Perspective Radio program right here in beautiful Memphis, Tennessee.

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No CRT, no anti-gun talk, no anti-God talk. It's a strong education but from a biblical perspective that will prepare you to represent Jesus in the world no matter what you do. Or maybe you're at a point in your life now where you want to get a master's degree or further your education, the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary is a great place and they have a new program, by the way, a new degree offering called apologetics.

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That's mabts.edu. And of course, I want to thank our sponsor, Citizens for America. Visit our website at citizensforamericafoundation.com. Sign up to get our educational information sent out to help you develop a biblical worldview.

And it's an election year and I know Jordan and I will probably talk about this in a minute. It's so important for Christians to register to vote. There are over 40 million Christians that are eligible to vote that are not registered to vote in the United States of America today to get educated on the issues and then engage in the political arena and in public policy. And I know that's something Gun Owners of America is going to want you to do as well.

We need to get engaged as Christians. And maybe one of the issues you don't know about is the issue we're going to talk about today, which is gun ownership and the right to self-defense. And should a Christian own guns?

And is it okay to support candidates who support the Second Amendment? And that's what we want to educate you on today. So my guest is Jordan Stein.

He is with Gun Owners of America. And Jordan, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you back on the program. I am thrilled to be back and coming off the high from the Cultural Engagement Summit. That was a great event.

I'm glad GOA could be there. Well, we were honored to have you there. You know, as I said in the opening, I'm a life member of Gun Owners of America. And you're a great organization because you're probably the most conservative gun enthusiast organization and Second Amendment rights organization out there. And I'm not knocking others. I'm members of some of the other organizations as well. But y'all take a strong stance and you don't bend or compromise.

And that's something we've seen way too much of in our society is people compromising. But I tell you what, before we jump in that, I know you've been on here before, but somebody might just be hearing you for the first time. Jordan, can you share a little bit about who you are and what you do at Gun Owners of America? So I'm the Southeast Regional Director for GOA. So I cover a dozen states, you know, managing our interests and affairs and really representing gun owners in those states.

And in many of the states, we do have localized state directors as well, but I kind of help them and everything. But we go about fighting for the Second Amendment without compromise. And, you know, sometimes when we catch some flak from anti-gunners, I remember Harry Reid, the late senator, he said that GOA was worse than bad. So when you know you're catching flak like that, you're over the right target. Yeah, that's for sure, because he was so liberal.

Yeah, he was not a friend of gun owners or Christians on many issues. And, you know, it's when he spoke ill of you, you know, you're doing something right. So but that's what you're about.

And you're so right. We take a firm stance on the Second Amendment. We don't compromise. We believe that shall not be infringed actually means shall not be infringed. And that's the standard that we hold politicians to. We will not compromise on the Second Amendment, because if you give one inch, they will keep coming for miles.

And you look back to our history, and sadly, all gun owners have done, not GOA, but gun owners generally have compromised. We can see the ground on this issue and the next issue and the next issue. And if we keep doing this, we won't have any rights left.

None at all. So that's why we're standing up and we're saying no more. We want our rights restored back to the standard of shall not be infringed. When did you all form as an organization? And was there something that the formation of Gun Owners of America? We were we were started in 1976, actually by a former NRA board member, HL Richardson, he was a state senator in California, back before California was completely commie. But he was a state senator there. And he wanted to form his own organization.

And, and he did in 1976. So we're actually one of the oldest, you know, political engagement, you know, political action organizations. You know, NRA has obviously been around since the 1800s. But, you know, and I would have to go back and check exactly, but we're, I believe we're actually older on the political side than that group.

So then their political, their equivalent political side. So we've been in this fight since, you know, you could form these committees, you know, these form these groups and, and fighting in the trenches for a long time. And I'm very proud that of our record, you know, in, you know, the over 40 years we've been in this fight, we have never compromised. And we've never, you know, said, Okay, you can do that or squished out, we have held the standard of shall not be infringed every day. And that's what we fight to do.

And that's what we continue to do. So do you just so people who might not be familiar, you know, I don't know why NRA, you know, seems to be a term people are more familiar with. And maybe our listeners, maybe you've never heard of Gun Owners of America. And by the way, you can visit GunOwners.org, I believe is your website, right? GunOwners.org? Yes, GunOwners.org. Yep.

So, Jordan, what do y'all do? Do you provide education? Is there gun safety training? Do you, are you supporting candidates? Kind of what are the services that Gun Owners of America provides to his members? So our bread and butter, you know, service, if you will, or what you get is you get, we give you the tools, we give the gun owner, the Second Amendment supporter, anyone, the tools to be the armchair lobbyist, right?

Because, look, we all got lives, we all, you know, have to put food on the table and work our jobs. We can't keep up with all the political news that's going on. But we do that for you when we say, hey, you know, there's constitutional carry bill moving in your statehouse, you know, take action to support it. So we provide you with pre-written action alerts and emails and postcards that you can take action on and contact your representatives and actually make a difference because when politicians fill the heat, they see the light. And that's been proven over and over again by how we activate the grassroots and just, you know, make the politicians actually understand what shall not be infringed means.

So that is our bread and butter, you know, that's the core of what we do. Secondarily, we do have a PAC and we do support candidates. Sometimes when there's a candidate, whether Republican or Democrat, who, you know, compromises on the Second Amendment, we seek to give them the boot and put someone in who will actually fight for the Second Amendment and will not compromise on that, you know. And primaries are a big deal.

I think you alluded to it a little earlier. You know, we're announcing election or candidate endorsements for primaries around the country. You know, in North Carolina, Ted Budd is our champion for the Senate. He's currently a congressman and he has been one of the most standout Second Amendment defenders in the House. And he owns a gun store. He's the real deal. And that's why we're proud to support him. He would make a fantastic Senator in the state of North Carolina. Well, that's going to be a key race. Yes.

If I can interrupt you, you know, there's probably seven or eight key. The U.S. Senate is really on the cusp of having a major change. The House is, too, I believe, in this year. But this is 2022 is a major election year. And there are going to be some big Senate races, Arizona and Georgia and North Carolina and others.

And that North Carolina race may be the most expensive race, they're saying, in the history of the nation. And there's a primary, I think, just next week in North Carolina. There's, I don't know, eight or nine candidates running. There are three of the bigger candidates. But Ted Budd has received President Trump's endorsement and it's going to be interesting to see who comes out. I think there's isn't there a former Supreme Court justice in that race on the Democrat side? Yes, I believe so as well.

She's very little from what I've read. And, you know, sometimes the Democrats are sneaky. And we saw this in Virginia a couple of years ago when the Virginia took over the state legislature. They didn't necessarily run on a radically anti-gun ticket, but we knew that they were anti-gun. So they kind of hid their views on the Second Amendment. So you have to be very careful because, you know, Democrats would cheat, lie and steal, right? I'm going to get letters for that, but that's OK, because they're not truthful. Republicans do, too.

I'm an equal opportunity person. So no, no. But you're right, Jordan, because they lie on this issue every time somebody gets shot.

You know, President Biden has just disgusted me on this issue. Anything happens. And instead of denouncing the criminals who commit that gun did not commit the crime. The criminal did. And and, you know, he just wants to jump on the guns every chance he can.

And a sneaky attack that they've had is to tax ammunition and make it, you know, you might can get the gun, but we're going to make ammunition so expensive you can't afford to get it. Well, let's take a quick break here. I'm talking to Jordan Stein with None Owners of America.

And we're learning a little bit about the organization None Owners of America. When we come back, we're going to talk about the biblical basis for self-defense. Stick around. Be right back. This show is brought to you by Generous Joes, the coffee company with the Christian perspective.

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This is Chris Hughes. My guest today is my good friend, Jordan Stein. Jordan and his wife work with Gun Owners of America. They travel the country defending the Second Amendment. And the neat thing about Gun Owners of America is they do not compromise. There have been other organizations that are Second Amendment.

We appreciate them for the work they do. But sometimes those other organizations compromise. Gun Owners of America does not compromise. And they endorse strong candidates who defend the Second Amendment. And they educate their members and voters on the importance of gun ownership and the importance of supporting the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

And Jordan, I do want to get in to the biblical basis in a minute. But before we do that, can you share with our listeners, I mean, they might not know, they might hear the term Second Amendment. They don't know what that means. What is the Second Amendment of the Constitution? And why are you guys fighting to defend it? The Second Amendment says a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Which some of those words we don't necessarily use in our, you know, normal vocabulary every day. You know, what's a militia? You know, security of a free state, you know, what do these terms really mean? And I think that's why we have to go back to the importance of our founders and what they actually said about this. You know, I believe it was George Mason that when he was asked about, you know, who is the militia? Well, he said it's everyone except a few public officials, right? And we look back at what the Supreme Court has said, and not that the Supreme Court is right all the time, but the Supreme Court has ruled largely that the Second Amendment is an individual right that was in the Heller decision and the subsequent McDonald decision. Whereas it's not a collective right to a national guard or whatever, but it's an individual right that, you know, Americans... So the Supreme Court has ruled on that then?

Yes, and the Heller and the subsequent McDonald decision, that was the big outcome. You know, that individuals have the right to keep and bear arms. It's not a collective right to a militia. That's important because I hear so many liberals say, well, that's not what the Second Amendment means. The Second Amendment means that only if you're a member of a militia. So if you're not a member of an organized like government sanctioned militia, you shouldn't own a gun. And so that's important for our listeners to understand the Supreme Court in interpreting the constitutionality of the Second Amendment has said that is an individual right. So thank you for pointing that out.

I think that's important for listeners to know and understand. It's not just in reference to being part of a government sanctioned militia. Another point that many anti-gunners like to bring up in that term, they like to use the term well-regulated, right? So that means that the Second Amendment allows for gun control, right, to regulate guns. Well, that's another point where we have to look at the context of what words meant back then. Sometimes through in the English language, words kind of change definitions over time. And how we use the term regulated is kind of different today is different than how they use the term back then. When they use a well-regulated, they meant that a well-trained or well-organized, a well-kept organization, right?

So, you know, sometimes the term is used like a well-regulated watch that keeps time right. So it wasn't that, you know, the Second Amendment allows for gun control, but it actually allows for, you know, we should be trained in the use of arms for it. And what I love about the Second Amendment is it assumes the rights already established, right? The Second Amendment, and this was a beautiful segue into our subject, but the Second Amendment does not give you the right to keep and bear arms. The right of self-defense comes from God and our founders recognized the source of our rights in the Declaration of Independence. It's so beautifully written. It just, it assumes, you know, we have the right and it states why we have this right to protect ourselves. And it says that that right cannot be regulated in any way.

Just so cleanly, clearly written. Well, and I think it is a good segue, Jordan, into what the Bible says, because I hear a lot of people, you know, talk about, well, you know, you shouldn't have guns or weapons, but you're not reading the Bible all throughout the Bible. And, you know, I know a lot of people today, I hear a lot of sermons, Nehemiah's popular today. Well, when Nehemiah was rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem, he commanded that every man that is working on the wall wear a sword to be able to defend at the time. But people love to run around and say that Jesus was some pacifist and he would never support the Second Amendment. Do you think that Jesus taught pacifism or would he support us of being able to defend ourselves? I don't believe that Christ taught pacifism. You know, when people argue this point, they like to bring up like Matthew 538 and 39, where they say, you know, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but don't resist an evil person.

Whoever slaps you on the right, turn, you know, turn the other cheek, right? Well, I think when you look at the exact what that is talking about, it's talking about, you know, someone perhaps insulting you or, you know, and you trying to take vengeance against their insult. I don't think, you know, that exact scripture is talking about, you know, an actual physical assault on you. And that would go against other passages in the Bible as well. You know, talking about the words of Jesus, you know, Luke 22 36, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but it says that if you, he told his disciples, if they didn't have a sword to sell their coat and go out and buy a sword, and the disciples said that, hey, we had two, and Jesus said that's enough. So you had two disciples packing, probably the whole time they were in the ministry, armed with weapons. I imagine my son and I were talking about Simon the Zealot, who was one of the disciples, how he was probably very skilled in the use of weaponry as a zealot at that time. And we know that, you know, the night before Jesus' crucifixion, he was in the Garden of Gethsemane praying, and Peter cut off the ear of a man named Malchus. Well, Peter wouldn't have been able to cut off that ear if he wasn't armed. And, you know, Jesus knew that he was armed, and when he was traveling with him, it frustrates me when liberals love to take Bible verses, you know, like you were saying, the turn the other cheek Bible verse, I hear that one a lot, you know, well we should just, are you telling me that Jesus just wants people to shoot us and kill us?

I don't agree with that. And they take these Bible verses out of context, and unfortunately so few Christians read and study their Bible today that, you know, they can't argue. All the liberals have to do is throw a Bible verse out. The Christian doesn't know anything about the Bible verse, and one verse taking out of context, you can't do that when you're studying the Word of God.

There's a context, there might be a chapter or two, and they just snatch one verse, you know, out of a chapter or two that are talking about that subject, and we fall for that trick, and that's one of the reasons it's so important for us to be firm in the Word of God and to understand what God's Word says about these issues. I know I didn't get to go hear him speak, and I hated that. You were recently at the Culture Engagement Summit, as you mentioned, that we had in Memphis, Tennessee, and you brought a man named Stephen Williford with you to that event. So correct me here, I'm probably butchering the facts here, but I think it was 2017, there was a church shooting somewhere in Texas, and Stephen helped defend the members of that church. You mind sharing that story of what happened that day?

I would love to. Stephen Williford was relaxing on a Sunday morning. He had a big work day the next day, so that's why he wasn't in church, because he was going to go on call, he just needed to rest. So he was relaxing, and he heard what he thought were, or actually his daughter came up to him and said, you know, I think I hear gunshots at the First Baptist Church. He lives in a very small town in Texas called Sutherland Springs, very small town, 600 people, and so his daughter goes up to the church, drives to the church, and comes back and says, there's someone shooting up the First Baptist Church.

And so Williford goes to his gun safe, grabs an AR-15, and only loads up eight rounds, because he didn't have any loaded magazines or a loaded gun in his house, and went out and engaged the shooter. And he shot at the shooter six times, and all six shots of his hit the target. He forced the shooter to flee the scene, and eventually the shooter took his own life, but by him intervening, he saved many, many people's lives that day. And sadly, that was one of the worst church shootings in Texas, and one of the worst shootings at a place of worship, but it could have been so much worse if he hadn't had stopped and saved people's lives by doing good, and using his gun for good. Yeah, well, I remember when that happened, and there were a series of shootings, if I remember correctly, around about that time. I didn't realize he shot the perpetrator six times.

I knew he had injured him. But I know as a result of that, churches across the country began to take notice, and realized that, you know, Satan will do anything to try to defeat the Word of God and God's people, and a lot of evil people were trying to go to churches and hurt them. And so churches began to have safety courses where they would have men and women that were basically creating their own security teams on Sunday mornings.

I don't know, did Gun Owners of America assist in any of those training courses across the country when that happened? We certainly encourage that, and personally, I do serve on a safety team at my church, which, you know, we take that very seriously. It's just so important that we realize that, sadly, there are, you know, we have evil hearts. You know, Scripture is very clear that our hearts are wicked, and sometimes there are people who, you know, are just overcome by that, and they want to do evil things. You know, in Sutherland Springs, that shooter attacked that church because he hated his in-laws that went there, and he hated Christians. So that's why he went up, had body armor, had a rifle, had handguns with many magazines on them, and he attacked that church because of hate. It's not a fun subject. It's not something I like to relish on, but it's a reality we live in in this world, and I think we need to be prepared to fight against that.

Yeah, I agree. I live, so where I live in the mountains of North Carolina, just about a year ago, well, just like a year and a week or two ago, right next to my neighborhood, there was a gentleman who had some mental health issues, and he, his parents lived in that neighborhood, and he got mad at his parents, and he went in and he decapitated both of his parents, but his plan was to hide out in that house, and they're about a half a mile from the one of the biggest, well, the biggest Baptist church in our area, and his plan was to, on Sunday, to go into that church and to kill as many people as possible in that church. So there's just evil across the country, and particularly, there seems to be a lot of shootings either in schools or in churches, and it's an issue that we need to prepare for.

So if you're listening to this show, and you'd like to learn more, I'm sure you could go to Godhonors.org and get more information, and if not, Jordan could probably help you or find instructors who could come. I know right after what Stephen did in Texas back in 2017, is I organized, you know, this is something anybody could do, is I contacted all the churches in our area and said, you know, we live in a small community like, you know, we're bigger than the one in Texas, but we could have this issue in any of our churches, and we need to understand what the law says, what we can and can't do, and whether or not we can be armed and trained, and there are a lot of issues with that. I mean, if you're going to have armed security guards, I'm kind of going down a rabbit draw here, this is not what we're going to talk about, Jordan, but you know, if you're going to have armed security guards in your church, you really need to understand the laws and regulations, you know, if there's a school in the church that could change who can and can't be armed, but you don't want just some melee going on, where if there is a bad guy shows up in the church, where other people, innocent people get shot in a crossfire, there really needs to be some training, so we asked our sheriff's department to come in and provide training for our local churches, and I would encourage you to do that in your area. I mean, it's an ongoing issue, evil, as George said, has always been here, and evil's not going to go away, and we need to be prepared, and certainly people need to know that they're safe when they're in the house of God, and that they don't need to be afraid of what's going on when they go to worship.

I'm talking to Jordan Stein with Gun Owners of America, where I've gone down some rabbit trails, but we're really talking today about the biblical basis of self-defense, so we're going to take a quick commercial break, when you come back, you want to hear more of what Jordan has to say. The United States of America has a strong Christian heritage, but most Americans don't know the truly important role that God in the Bible played in the founding of this great nation. This June, join nationally syndicated radio host and founder of the Citizens for America Foundation, Dr. Chris Hughes, for four amazing days in our nation's capital. With Chris, you'll embark on a journey of discovering the hidden secrets of Washington, D.C., and rediscover much of America's forgotten Christian heritage. Your tour will include an up-close and personal look at the nation's establishment and how it's evolved over the centuries. Learn about the government and the men who helped forge this new kind of republic, one that acknowledged the creator from its very inception.

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I'm Chris Hughes. My guest today is Jordan Stein. Jordan is with Gun Owners of America and what a great organization. You can learn more about them at gunowners.org and what they're doing to defend the Second Amendment in the United States. Before the break, we were talking about gun shootings that have been taking place in churches across the country and certainly are taking place in schools and other areas as well. We're talking about the biblical basis for self-defense. Jordan was sharing with us, it was a lot of people like to say that Jesus is a pacifist, but he wasn't. And many of his disciples, if you look at throughout the Bible and the New Testament, he found that they were armed. Jordan, one thing I hear, particularly when liberals are talking about this is, well, you know, you say as a Christian and as a church that you love God and trust God, why do you need to be armed? Why can't you just trust God to protect you?

What do you say when people say that to you? I say, of course you should trust God, right? Because we put our faith and trust in God and of course we should trust God. But again, it goes back to, I believe I was talking about it earlier, you know, we have to look at the entirety of scripture, right? I mean, I think a lot of these people who argue that point, you know, say that, you know, hey, God takes care of the sparrows and they don't worry about their food, so why should we worry, right? But what I would say to that is, again, we have to look at the entirety of scripture.

And I want to use an analogy. You know, scripture also says in 1 Timothy that essentially, if you don't work, you don't eat. If you don't take care of your own household, you're worse than a believer. So I believe we have, so one could say, well, I trust God to provide for my food and provide for my family, which of course we should do that, but if we're not doing anything to provide for our family or for our food, then it's almost like you're defying God. So we should take action to be prepared, right?

Most people have a job and that's how we buy food. So, you know, we trust God to enable us to go out and acquire food and take care of our family. And I think the same principle can be applied to our personal security. Of course we trust God to protect ourselves. And, you know, from what I know about Stephen Williford's case, there's so many factors that happened. And there's so much of God in his story where God guided him through that situation. So of course our trust goes into play, but Williford was also prepared to defend, right?

He actually had the rifle, you know, he had the training, he had the wherewithal to defend that church. So, you know, just to say we should just trust God without taking any actions, I don't think that is realizing all of Scripture and I don't think it's necessarily wise to do with it. You know, I think we should be prepared and our trust and our preparation go together. Well, I agree with that. And so I'm going to say something. Hopefully I won't make you nervous with this, Jordan.

I know it's going to make the hair stand up on the backs of the necks of some pastors and Christians that go to church. But, you know, pastors, I encourage you to go get a handgun and to take the proper training courses. Do you all offer gun safety courses through Gun Owners of America? Not at this time.

Okay. But NRA does, and they do a good job. I think Stephen was an NRA certified instructor as well. But there are a lot of great courses you can take, or even a lot of local gun shops.

You were talking about Ted Buddies, 100% at North Carolina. You know, Ted's gun store offered training classes. I would encourage pastors to get a handgun that you're familiar with. Don't just buy it and have it and then not know how to use it. That's for anybody. If you get a handgun, particularly when you claim you're using it in self-defense, you need to shoot that gun.

You need to know how it feels in your hand, how it reacts and what it feels like. So when you are in that situation, you know, you've got a comfort level with what you're doing. But I want to challenge pastors. Now this is what's going to upset people. Pastors, I think you should have a gun when you're standing in a pulpit.

Now that doesn't mean anybody needs to see it. But a pastor is at a unique vantage point because usually the pulpit is on the opposite direction of the main entrance to the church. You know who are members of your church and who are not. You know who's, you know, in many cases mentally, not in every case, but in many cases mentally sound and not.

And so when you're standing in that pulpit, you have a unique vantage point to see all the entryways, in most cases to the sanctuary and what's going on in that area. And I've got a friend, Jordan, I don't know if you've met Ken Graves. Ken Graves is a pastor of a Calvary Chapel Church in Maine. He's made a lot of national news because during COVID he would not shut down. And you know, he believed the Bible tells us that we're in Hebrews, that we're to congregate and we're not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together as Christians. And he kept his church open and the governor, who was a very liberal governor of Maine, tried to have him arrested.

And he's been tied up in court, you know, for a couple, almost a couple of years now. But Ken Graves talks about how when he stands in the pulpit for that very reason, because when he's behind the pulpit, he can see, you know, everything that's going on in the church. And he likes to joke and say that he has a Glock for the flock. And so he's prepared. I thought that was great when he said he has a Glock for the flock.

But I'm the same way. So now some churches might uninvite me when I come in. But in most cases, I mean, I obey, always obey the laws of the state you're in or the county or whatever you're in. And certainly if you're not supposed to have a weapon, if there's a school there. So obey the laws.

I'm not telling you to disobey the laws. But many times when I preach, Jordan, I travel all over the country and preach, I'm almost always armed for that very reason, because I have an advantage point, you know, everybody else's back is turned to that door. They don't know who's walking in or what's going on. And, you know, in that case, it was probably very clear in the Steven Wilford case, when that guy walked in, you know, usually they have a trench coat or they might have, you know, a longer rifle or something, you know, and, and it's going to stick out.

You're going to know something's up. But if you're not armed, you can't do anything about it. So I'd encourage pastors do that. I also encourage churches to have a security team. I think you mentioned you're on the security team at your church.

Our church now has, we put in cameras a while back, not everybody can afford cameras, but we have three or four men who walk around our church all during the service. They lock other exterior doors, you know, where they make it basically after the service begins. I mean, before that's not the case, but after the service begins, they control the entry points.

You know, people could escape if there was a fire emergency, but someone would have to go through the main entry point to get in. And, you know, when they're handing out the bulletins and I mean, simple tricks, you know, you mentioned coming to the Culture Engagement Summit, we, we had security there. We had a lot of security there because we had some famous speakers and, and we had, we trained the people that were registering people at the door and checking their tickets, you know, for certain signs. I mean, you can't catch it in every instance, but there are some things you can be on the lookout for, particularly in your church on Sunday, to know who's coming through that door and do they look suspicious and do you need to be concerned about them when they're coming in? Are there, I know you don't want to give away the secrets to your church, but are there things that you would recommend that a church do from your experience on your security team where you go to church? Really being, you know, being eyes and ears, right?

Having the more, um, more eyes and watching people. Um, and it's not because we don't love people, we're not welcoming to people. You know, our church, we try to be welcoming to everyone, right?

We want it to be a good place for, for everyone. But, you know, sometimes if you just don't, um, have a good feeling about something or someone's body language is off or, or if, you know, if they are wearing a big trench coat and it is 80 degrees outside, that's a little odd. And you know, that, that might be something I might want to, uh, run up to the chain and have the leadership of my security team address. Um, but it's just being vigilant and being eyeballs because, you know, obviously, um, defending yourself or drawing a firearm is a very, very serious ordeal. It's the last thing I ever want to do. Um, and so it is, you know, we, we watch for things and, and just try to prevent stuff from happening to begin with, um, and try to deescalate the situations and, and, and that, and that's what we, what we try to do at our church.

Yeah. And I think, and I'm not, you know, your, your security team doesn't necessarily have to be armed. I think just having a security team, I think that's a, uh, that dissuades, uh, potential bad guys, not in every case, but I mean, certainly if I was a bad guy and I was going to go to try to take out some people, if I knew they had a security team, uh, people that are being vigilant and watching, if I knew that they had people ready to call the police or that they had a plan in place, I'm going to be much more reluctant to, uh, to make a move on that church or that business or school, if I know that's in place. Um, so, you know, again, churches and pastors, I'm encouraging y'all to have training. You need to have a plan because this is happening way too often across the country today. I mean, you should have kind of a medical team. I know churches that have medical teams are just kind of been waiting. If something, you know, Lord forbid something ever happens or they, uh, they, you know, they know who's going to call 911 and, uh, you know, how are we going to get our people out of the sanctuary? You don't want to wait till something like that happens.

You need to have a plan in place and people that are in leadership positions that can be prepared and ready to go. Folks, we're talking to Jordan Stein with Gun Owners of America, and we're talking about, uh, the biblical basis of self-defense. You know, is it okay to be, to be able to defend yourself?

Is it okay to own a gun or do we need to be trained when we do that? Those are the issues we're talking about today from the Christian perspective. Protect a commercial break. We'll be right back. A brand is a design, name, symbol, or any other feature that sets an organization or individual apart. Bringing that brand to life can be difficult, but Diggs Design is here to help you take that next step or re-energize your current situation.

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Know the truth about the creation of the United States of America, about the faith of the founding fathers and how Christian principles were used to establish this form of government. Visit citizensforamericafoundation.com today and secure your spot to join Chris Hughes in Washington DC this June. Welcome back to Christian Perspectives. Chris Hughes, my guest today, is Jordan Stein. Jordan is with an organization that I absolutely love called Gun Owners of America.

In a few minutes, I'm going to have you tell us more about the organization, Jordan, how we can get involved. We've been talking about the biblical basis of self-defense. Earlier on the show, you talked about what about these people that say Jesus is a pacifist or people that say that we should just trust God.

You've given us biblical responses and scripture to those questions. Are there examples in the Bible, Jordan, where self-defense was okay? I know just recently I was talking to a college student that said, we're just supposed to turn a cheek. Should we not defend ourselves or we're never allowed to kill somebody?

We don't want to violate the Ten Commandments. Well, the Ten Commandments, that commandment, thou shalt not kill, the literal translation is, thou shalt not do murder. Killing someone in self-defense is not the same thing as a premeditated murder.

What do you think? Are there cases in the Bible where we can see biblical examples where self-defense took place and where God allowed self-defense so Christians can feel safe and secure to be able to defend themselves when the time comes? Absolutely. There are some great examples and scripture speaks to this a lot. Obviously, scripture doesn't talk about guns because they weren't around back then, but it talks about use of force and weapons. At the start of the program, you alluded to Nehemiah, where they were open carrying weapons while as they were rebuilding.

Open carry, right? They were using weapons as a deterrent against would-be evil attackers, and that was viewed as a good thing. An observation that I have seen reading through the Old Testament as well kind of shows the inverse, and this is just an observation that I have seen, but you look at places like Judges 5 and 1 Samuel 13, both of those were situations that Israel did not have weapons, and that led to oppression by other nations and judgment from God. So perhaps that's just a correlation, but when they didn't have weapons, they were being judged by God, and it was not a good time to be an Israelite in those situations.

So take that for what you will, but that's just an interesting observation that I have seen with that. But I think an important distinction as Christians, and this is largely based on, or our legal system in America was largely based on this and may be twisted now through perverse courts and things, but you look in the Old Testament out of Exodus, you know, Exodus 22, and it essentially says, I'm paraphrasing, but if a thief's found breaking into one's house at night and he's struck so he dies, there's no bloodshed. But if the son is risen on him, there is bloodshed. And I don't think that scripture necessarily says that you can't defend yourself in the daylight, but I think that scripture is making the distinction between defending your life and defending your property. And that's a really important distinction, especially using lethal force in defense of your life and property, because in the nighttime, if someone's breaking into your house, you don't know their intent.

It could just be to take your TV or it could be something a lot more grim. However, in the daylight, I think in this verse, it says that you can tell what their intent is and that you shouldn't use lethal force to defend your property. Now, I would say you could still use a level of force to defend your property, but lethal force, I would caution against that. So, and that's largely how most states in our country have set up the use of force laws.

You know, you can generally, you can defend yourself if you're in fear of your life, great bodily harm, or sexual assault. And I think that's based off of this principle in the Old Testament. That's good.

I love what you said. I've never heard anybody say that before, where not defending ourselves would lead in the Bible to oppression by other nations and judgment by God. That's pretty powerful. It's simply an observation as I was studying this.

Yeah. And when you said it, it clicked with me. I never thought about that, but you're exactly right.

There is example after example throughout the Bible of that situation. Well, leading up to that, Jordan, you mentioned, and I just want to make sure that our listeners understand terms. You mentioned open carry and earlier in the show, you mentioned concealed carry. Can you share with our listeners what those two terms mean?

What's the difference between those two? So open carry is when one carries a firearm and it's visible to the public. That is typically what like a police officer would do. So, you know, if you see a police officer and there's a pistol on their hip, they're open carrying. And believe it or not, in I believe 30 some states, one can open carry a firearm without a permit. It's lawful to do just as a matter of right. However, with concealed carry, it has to be hidden from the public, hidden from view. And so when someone's looking at you, you can't tell that there's a firearm on the person.

So that's the distinction there. And, you know, the gun community likes to debate a lot about open carry and concealed carry. But at GOA, we think you should have the freedom to do both. However, you decide to defend yourself, you should have the freedom to do so. And personally, sometimes I do both. Sometimes I open carry, sometimes I concealed carry.

It just depends on the situation I'm at. Well, just so our listeners know, you want to be careful that you understand the law, even though Jordan and I both agree that, you know, it'd be great if we had the ability to do both anywhere in the United States. And I certainly think there's an interpretation with the Constitution that we do have that right. But there are laws in some states that say otherwise.

So you need to be sure you are educated and informed. And again, you can contact Gun Owners of America at gunowners.org. That's gunowners.org.

And I'm sure they'd be glad to help you figure out what the situation is in your state. Because you, you know, if it's not legal in your state, you don't want to strap up like John Wayne to be walking around. And then there are also certain places, you know, like schools and other areas, and most states are not allowed to have a firearm, whether concealed or open carry. And again, you can argue the constitutionality of that.

But unless you want to get arrested, you better understand the law and not do that. The same with concealed carry. You know, in most cases with concealed carry, even if open carry is allowed, and I'm probably delving into areas I should be talking about, but if open carry, even if it's allowed into a state concealed carry, in most cases, you have to have a permit, which means that you've taken some type of course, and passed a background check and that kind of thing, in order to be, is that usually what's required, Jordan, or do you know in states, if you have a concealed carry, usually you have to have a license to do that, right?

Yes, but that is, that's changing. And that's the battle that GOA is championing, because the problem with permits is that it forces you to seek permission before you can exercise your right. And so we, and I believe we discussed it on the show last time, but we advocate for what's called constitutional carry or permitless carry. Essentially, if you can own a gun, you can carry a gun as a matter of right. And I believe the last time since I came on the show, we actually have had more states doing what we call the constitutional carry club. I believe last time Georgia was right on the cuss, and now it is, you know, doing the club and it is a constitutional carry state. Whereas if you can legally own a gun, you're not a prohibited person from owning a gun, you can carry that gun to defend yourself, open or concealed. So now we have 25 constitutional carry states, which is incredible.

So it's half the country now, half the country is constitutional carry, and you don't need a government permission slip to carry a gun. And we're working on a few more states right now. Florida is a battle, but we're fighting there and other states across the country. But you know, we would love that number to be 50. That's a long ways before we get there, but that's where we want to be.

It's really surprising that Florida, because they consider themselves the free state of Florida, and you know, they support so many constitutional rights. I'm surprised you're having a battle there. So we need to be praying for that. So Jordan, if people want to learn, you know, I want to back up before we leave the subject. Folks, don't misinterpret what Jordan or I are saying. You need to obey the laws in your state and you can go to gunauters.org and Jordan and his team will help you understand what the laws, even though we believe, you know, constitutionally you have the right, there are laws in states and you need to follow those laws. So go to gunauters.org and learn what you can do in your individual state. Jordan, how can they, we only got about a minute, but how can they become a member and support what you're doing at Gun Owners of America? Yeah, so the easiest way is go to gunowners.org and there's a big red button that says join and you can sign up right there. It's $25 to join.

Boy, and that's easy. Any of us, you know, that's, that's a couple of trips to McDonald's these days, but you'll be supporting a great organization that defends the constitution, second amendment. One more quick question. Do you have, um, do y'all have an annual meeting? I know the NRA annual meeting is coming up soon. Do y'all have an annual meeting of your members as well? Not at this time, but maybe in the future.

You never know. Yeah, that'd be great to do where, where members of Gun Owners from America can come together and meet each other and, and, uh, you know, have great fellowship and learn what we can do to, to help you even more. Jordan, I appreciate the work of Gun Owners of America listeners. I'm telling you, I've been a lifetime member for many years. This is a great, great organization, $25 a year.

Any of us can do that. Help us in this battle. I encourage you to go to gunowners.org today and join Gun Owners of America. And Jordan, thank you for being a man of God, a strong Christian and fellow brother. And thank you for helping us understand what the Bible says so we can have a Christian perspective on the issue of gun ownership. Thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for having me.

Folks, I would encourage you to visit citizensforamericafoundation.com where you can learn about these and other issues, and we'll keep you informed and, and learn more about our partners like Gun Owners of America. Thank you for being here with us. Listen each and every day at the same time on your radio station. And then later in the day, if it becomes a podcast and share with your friends and family, let's go impact the culture for Jesus. Thank you for listening. The Christian Perspective with Chris Hughes. Learn more about impacting the culture for Jesus. Visit citizensforamericafoundation.com. This is the Truth Network.