Truth Matters ft. Robert George and Cornel West

Hey, everybody. Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio. My conversation the entire episode here with Dr. Cornel West, who ran for the presidency actually as a third party, and Dr. George, how can we find fruitful discussion despite big disagreements?

How can we get closer to the truth despite differing worldviews? Great conversation all hour. I think you'll really enjoy it. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and get involved with Turning Point USA at tpusa.com. That is tpusa.com.

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Go to noblegoldinvestments.com. Very excited for, and we're here at the bitcoin.com studio, for the conversation that we're going to have this hour, and it's needed more than ever. When I go to these college campuses, I try to model civility the best I can.

I don't always do that. I fall short of the standard. But two men in the public eye have modeled what it means and what it looks like to have fruitful disagreement in an age of division. And they are two professors at Princeton University. First, it's Dr. Cornel West, who's the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Professor of Philosophy and Christian Practice at Union Theological Seminary and Professor Emeritus at Princeton University.

And Robert P. George is the McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and Director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University. Both Dr. West and Dr. George join us for the full hour. Great to see you both.

Thank you for taking the time. And you have both now co-authored, I should say, this book, Truth Matters. Dr. West, I'll start with you because we are the least ideological aligned, so it'll be fun to start with you. But be it great to be chatting. Dr. West, welcome to the program.

Tell us about the book. Well, first, I want to just thank you for having both of us. God bless you and your precious family. But no, we're fundamentally committed to a pursuit of truth. We recognize that we're cracked vessels, we're fallible and fallen. But truth is bigger than all of us, just like beauty is, just like God is, just like goodness is.

And to be able to spend these 20 years with my dear, dear brother, Ravi, though I have a deep love of my brother. Love is not reducible to politics, and brotherhood and friendship is not reducible to being correct on political issues. I think brother Ravi's wrong on a whole host of things.

He thinks I'm wrong on a whole host of things. But I can revel in his humanity, and I can take seriously the counter-arguments he has against me. I think it cuts deeper than civility though, brother Charlene.

It's really a matter of humanity, and it also has much to do with what it means to be a follower of Jesus, of Nazareth. We can get into that later. Well, very good. Dr. George, add on to that, add some context or detail.

The book is Truth Matters. And talk about this friendship that you have with Dr. West. And how do you remain friends, despite the fact that you guys have polar opposite views on many pressing issues? Well, Charlie, first, thanks for the opportunity to be on the show. I love being on with my brother Cornel West. And it's so good to see you again. It's been several years since we've seen each other.

I'm hoping that we can get together sometime soon in person again. But it's lovely to be on your show. I knew you before you were Charlie Kirk, and now you're Charlie Kirk, a big important contributor to our public discourse here.

And just so delighted that things have gone this way for you, and that you're a force out there. I love your dialogues. You're really trying to practice what Cornel and I have been preaching. You mentioned that sometimes you fall short. Well, we all do. Cornel and I do. As Cornel said, we're all cracked vessels.

We're frail, fallible, fallen human beings. But that doesn't mean that we can't and shouldn't do our best to engage with each other in a way that's genuinely fruitful. And that really gets us to the book. One of the great blessings of my life has been my friendship with Brother Cornel. And this really began in earnest back in 2005, 20 years ago, when we began teaching together, teaching the great books of Western civilization to these brilliant young Princeton students, teaching Sophocles' Antigone, Plato's Apology, St. Augustine's Confessions, and on and on up to the 19th century with figures like John Stuart Mill and John Henry Newman into the 20th century teaching John Dewey and C.S.

Lewis and Martin Luther King. And I just found that working with Cornel, I was learning every day. It didn't matter whether we ended up agreeing or not. I was deepening my own understanding in my engagement with him. And he kindly says that he has the same experience and has had the same experience deepening his understanding, whether we happen in the end to come to the same place or not.

The title of the book says it all. It's what we fundamentally share, and that is a belief that truth matters. Getting at the truth, being in touch with reality, not living with falsehoods, not descending into dogmatism and ideology and tribalism, putting truth above all, whether it squares with our preconceived notions or doesn't square with our preconceived notion. And I'm dedicated to that, and Cornel is dedicated to that. And I can tell you that creates a powerful bond between two people, a bond that's much stronger than anything that may divide us. We do disagree on many very important things, but we are fundamentally united in our desire to get at the truth and to work together to get there. So in our conversations, which have been going on for 20 years inside the classroom and outside the classroom, and now in print in our book, Truth Matters, for 20 years, we have been talking and debating and discussing and arguing with each other, not with a view of defeating the other guy. I never set out to defeat Cornel in an argument.

He never sets out to defeat me. We work together in a partnership trying to provide the best arguments on the competing sides with the common goal, the common aim of getting at the truth of things. And as a result of that, I found my own understanding deeply enriched. I found the understanding of our students, whether they are right, left or center, Charlie. I have found the understanding of our students deeply enriched.

I just wish that we could present to you some of our students so that they could give you their testimony of their magic. We could get a couple of guys together in truth-oriented discussions. That's what it's all about. So getting at truth. I want to get into this deeper philosophical question of what is truth?

Because when I go to campuses, a lot of students say there is no absolute truth. And I ask, do you believe that? Absolutely.

So I want to get into that. But Dr. West, let me ask you a more fun question right off the bat based on that, which in this dialogue, and I'll ask it of Dr. George, has your mind changed? Have you has any of your opinions shifted because of this 20 year ongoing dialogue with your friend? Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. Brother Robbie pushes me against the wall and makes me come up with specific ways in which markets themselves may have virtues that I may have downplayed. And I push him against the wall and he begins to see the crucial role of government and the need to balance. But fundamentally, see, Robbie and I are abolitionists in terms of we want the abolition of poverty. We want the abolition of cowardliness. We want the abolition of dogmatism, the abolition of tribalism.

We know it will never happen because human beings are human beings, but we can fight against it. Philosophically, I thought that Vico was the greatest Italian philosopher in the history of all time. He's convinced me now that Aquinas is.

I've always had a great appreciation of Aquinas, but what does that mean? Well, Robbie is a Catholic and I'm very much a hang loose Baptist, and therefore I had to have an appreciation of the Catholic traditions. And we struggled over claims about faith and grace and what have you. So it's philosophical, it's theological, and it's political. On abortion, for example, we've had sustained discussions and debates on abortion. And he pushes me against the wall and I try to push him against the wall in a loving way. We just want to make sure that we are true to the Imago Dei, each precious human being made in the image of a loving and almighty God and therefore have a certain sanctity and dignity that the world didn't give him and the world can't take away.

We take very seriously that Christian practice and our Christian faith, and therefore when we talk about gays and lesbians or trans or what have you, it's not out of hate, even as we have disagreements in terms of what kind of practices ought to be enacted. That's the crucial thing that I love about Robbie. He says what he means, means what he says, and he's got an integrity.

He's got a compassion and that makes a difference, my brother, Charlie. Very good. Dr. George, I'm going to ask you that question after the break. We have to take a short radio break here and then we'll get into the deeper stuff. What is truth? How do you respond when someone says there is no truth and there is just power? Because in some ways they're rejecting the idea of dialogue. And I'm curious how, because what makes your partnership so exciting is you both have actually consented to a principle that dialogue will bring us closer to the truth. That's a little what dialogue means, dialogos. What happens when you're talking to somebody that rejects that though? What happens when you're having a dialogue? They say, no, no, no, actually speech is a waste of time.

So I'm interested how you both would respond to that or deal with that. Many clients aren't even able to make a minimum monthly payment on their private student loans. A private student loan debt in America totals over $300 billion. Well, they provide you with a custom loan payment based on your ability to pay.

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yrefi.com. So, Dr. George, we're talking about the dialogos dialogue and the pursuit of truth. Care to comment on that and how to get closer to truth? We must have dialogue. Well, we do. We human beings, of course, are social by nature, so it's our nature to interact, to form communities, to form friendships. There's a dark side as well. We also form animosities and so forth. But friendships are integrated around common activities and common goals. And one activity that we can integrate a friendship around is the one that Cornell and I have fundamentally integrated ours around, and that is the pursuit of truth. And we both realize that we've got a better shot at getting nearer to truth, nearer to the fullness of truth. If we cooperate, if we pursue truth together, then we do if we just try to pursue truth individually. And we do that by presenting the best arguments that we can think of on the competing side. So, if I'm inclined in a certain direction on an issue, it could be a philosophical issue, it could be a public policy issue, it might be the question of abortion, it might be the question of whether we should have affirmative action policies, whatever the question is. If I'm inclined in a certain direction, I lay my considerations on the table for Cornell in the form of reasons for my beliefs. And I invite him to tell me if there's something defective in my reasoning, if I've got something wrong.

If so, what have I got wrong? And he'll do that for me, and then I'll be able to reflect on those counterarguments. Same thing on his end. He'll give me his reasons for his position, and then I'll think about those and I'll tell him why, if I'm not persuaded, I'm not persuaded, what the considerations are that still leave me where I was, that don't move me. But as I say, in my experience, and I think this is the experience of anybody who's worked together with someone else or a group of people in the pursuit of truth, even if you don't end up reaching agreement, you're deepening your understanding of the issue. You come out of it in a better place, a fuller, richer understanding of the truth than you would otherwise have.

And it doesn't matter in the end whether you have persuaded each other. The deepening of understanding is itself a good thing. Now, ideally, you got to the truth of the thing. But if you're deepening understanding, you're at least getting closer to the truth of the thing. So, Dr. West, let me ask you about two and a half minutes.

I'm going to ask you the million dollar question. Well, then what is truth, my friend? What is truth? Yes, powerful question.

No, brother. There's truth capital T and none of us have access to and the truth small tease that we have access to. But we have to recognize we could be wrong.

And he claims we put forward a fallible. Now, as a Christian, you know, I believe that Jesus Christ is the truth, the flesh of occasion, the compensation of truth. And that is in the form of a love that has the capacity to transform who we are. So I'll make a radical distinction between love of power versus power of truth. But the truth itself, capital T, none of us have access to.

We look through a lens darkly. So we have to have a humility. The way to truth requires humility, maturity, but endless quest for truth, making sense of the world and hooking up with reality. So you can imagine we could have a whole seminar on that question, what is truth? But that's just the beginning of an answer, my dear brother.

So just a quick follow up, and it's only a minute and we'll do it after the break. How would you say how is it worth having a dialogue with someone who says that truth is not objective, absolute or universal, rather, it's relative and constructed? Is that even worth having a discussion with that individual? Oh, absolutely.

Because they believe that that relativistic claim itself is true. Correct. No, that's right. So at some point there is a absolute truth claim above their statement. And you tell them when they die, their death is itself a reality. That is true. There's a coming a time when they die. That's a fundamental truth they cannot deny. So in that sense, there's a contradiction for them to be relativistic.

Contextual is different than relativistic because we all have a context. That's why we are fallen and fallible. And that's why we're crank vessels trying to love our crooked neighbors with our crooked hearts. But the humility and the maturity is crucial. And that's what I think Robby and I always stress humility, maturity, fallibility, openness and might never makes right, even though might is always it's seemingly in the driver's seat.

We're going to pick this up after the break. And I want to get into that because it is difficult for me to dial of all the conversations I have. It's the most difficult where they will say there's nothing but your own truth. There's nothing transcendent.

There's nothing external. There's nothing agreed upon. It's just my truth and your truth. It's a very difficult thing for me to do. And that's the whole part of your book, is that truth matters. And you guys have something very rare because in your friendship, you both have at least the teleological agreement that you want to try to get closer to ultimate purpose. I don't always find that with the students. I talk to.

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Shouldn't you be looking into doing that, too? So, Dr. George, I'll start with you, Dr. George. There is a belief that is taught in many universities across the country. I'm sure you guys don't teach this in your particular classrooms that it don't give the opposition the right to speak. Speech is just kind of a construct that instead it's all about power. There's an element of repressive tolerance that why would we allow conservatives to have a voice?

You could draw back to Marcuse and some element. But I see this all the time when I go to college campuses where students, some will say, not a majority, but a very vocal minority, that speaking to you is a waste of time, that this is just all about power. How do you think about that?

How do you persuade somebody differently? And just take it from there. Sure. First, I want to echo what you said about Hillsdale College. What a wonderful institution it is. And those online courses are terrific.

Yes, they are. I had the opportunity to visit Hillsdale last year and give a lecture up there at the invitation of President Oren. And I was so impressed by the students as well as by the faculty. And, of course, President Oren himself has just done an amazing job in building Hillsdale into such a powerhouse intellectual institution. So bravo to Hillsdale.

I'm delighted that you're associated with them, Charlie. I didn't know that. All right. So the belief that it's really just all about power and that reason is impotent, that reason's role is merely to help you to figure out how to get what you want, whatever it is you happen to want, by whatever means necessary. And that at the end of the day, all of our aims, goals, objectives are given not by rational reflection, deliberation, judgment, but rather by desire, by the will, the will to power.

We find this in Plato's Republic in the figure of Thrasymachus arguing essentially that might makes right. So first thing we should notice, and this is why I bring it up, is there's nothing new here. This didn't just arise in the 1980s or 1990s or 1960s. It's a very old view.

Socrates is contending with it in the discussions with Thrasymachus and others. Now what's wrong with the view? What's wrong with the view is that it's false. We can reason our way to judgments, even judgments about very important, deep matters, questions of human nature, the human good, human dignity, human rights, human destiny. But it's hard and we're fallible, which means we can get it wrong. But the fact that we're fallible and can get it wrong doesn't mean that there is no truth there. It's simply a non-sequitur to suppose that you can infer from our fallibility the absence of truth, or even that it's impossible for us to get at the truth. Now we can't get at the truth fully.

Nobody's going to know everything that there is to be known and know it perfectly. And we all know that in our heads, even right now, all of us, every single one, every single person on this planet has some false beliefs in his head. But presumably we don't want to have false beliefs. We want to have true beliefs in our head. We'd like to swap out the false beliefs for true beliefs. And now this gets me, Charlie, to your question about why we should respect the freedom of speech of others. And not only respect their freedom of speech, but also listen to them and engage them in a truth-seeking spirit.

And that's for this reason. Those false beliefs, they're going to stay right in our heads if we never allow them to be challenged. The only way we have a hope of at least removing some of those false beliefs and replacing them with true beliefs, being in touch with reality, getting the truth that matters, is if we allow ourselves to be challenged. We accept criticism. We don't shut down the critic.

We don't punish him for challenging our cherished, deeply held identity-forming convictions. And not just that, the only way we're going to get those false beliefs out, at least some of them, is by listening to whatever the reasons and arguments and evidence is that our critic can produce in the hope of showing us that in fact we're wrong about something. We all have the experience of changing our minds, right?

I certainly do. I haven't always believed exactly the same things. I had a very dramatic intellectual conversion experience when I was a sophomore in college as a result of reading one of Plato's dialogues, the dialogue called Gorgias, which caused me to change my mind about a whole lot of things. What was the same me the moment before and the moment after, the same desires, interests, background, tribal allegiances, and so forth, but somehow I moved from one position about politics to a different one, from a more liberal to a more conservative position.

And that's because Plato, my interlocutor, made me think. He offered criticisms of views that I had held, rather uncritically as it turned out. I was just a kid, but he offered criticisms that I found persuasive. If we're to have any hope of increasing the number of true beliefs and decreasing the number of false beliefs that we have, we've got to make sure that we're got to allow our critics to speak. We can't immunize ourselves from criticism of our views, and we need to listen to that person, not just sit by and politely let him talk, genuinely listen in a true speaking spirit, understanding that he might be right and we might be wrong, or at least he might be partially right and we might be partially wrong.

So, Dr. West, I agree with everything that you guys are trying to do. Do you believe that the modern state of the academy in higher education is a place that fosters free dialogue, civility, respect and speech, especially when it comes towards those that might hold conservative positions? No, I mean, unfortunately, it isn't what it ought to be, my brother, that every university in any historical moment has its own forms of orthodoxy and dogmatism. And you can have a dogmatism of the right, a dogmatism of the center, a dogmatism of the left. Robbie and I are committed to Socratic energy. We don't believe in safe spaces in universities.

When you enter a space, you ought to be unsettled and unnerved and on earth. You ought to be willing to be critical and self-critical, just like when you have a conversation with the other brothers and sisters, they need to be unsettled and they need to unsettle you, mediated with respect though, mediated with respect. And we don't have that, unfortunately, the way we are in our universities. As you know, I'm in the situation, I got pushed out of Harvard myself because of my commitment to the Palestinian cause, not because I'm antisemitic. I love my Jewish brothers and sisters, but as a Christian, I want a Palestinian baby to have the exact value as any other baby, Israeli, black, white, red, whatever. Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world red or yellow, black or white, they are precious in his sight. I believe that, literally. And therefore, I don't want any kind of orthodoxy of a left, right, or what have you. We want Socratic action, mediated with respect. But then as Christians, we got something that the world believes is foolish and absurd. We're going to love everybody, beginning especially with the least of these.

That's what the biblical text says to me, and I believe it. Either one of you could take this, but I looked this up on Fire's website, a survey done in 2020 said that four out of 10 Ivy League students said that shouting down a speaker is always or sometimes acceptable. These are Ivy League students, right?

This is from Fire. So, I mean, they're pretty respectable, right? They said, absolutely.

I would take what they say with a lot of weight and a lot of heaviness. They're the best in the business, Charlie. I guess this does enter into some news of the day, which is, you know, President Trump with some of the funding of Harvard and the bigger institutions. I don't want to get too far in the politics of it, but you guys are a rare example of the pursuit of freedom of speech and dialogue. Do your colleagues believe that? Let's forget the students. Do your fellow professors actually believe in this? Because their students certainly don't. Not enough. Not enough do.

Some do. Cornell and I had the privilege of joining together with, we're now up to a thousand, almost a thousand professors from universities all over the country and across the ideological spectrum. We formed the Academic Freedom Alliance. We're doing the work that at another time, at a better time, the AAUP, the American Association of University Professors would have done, but they don't seem to be holding up the standard of free speech and academic freedom in the way they should, in my opinion. So we created a new organization of people who are dedicated to freedom of speech, and we're trying to preach this gospel. We're trying to preach it to our colleagues, and we're trying to preach it to our students. And the main way we're trying to preach it, it's not the only way, but the main way we're trying to preach it is by example. Cornell and I are trying to lead here by example. We want to show people how you engage in robust but civil truth-seeking discourse.

We want to try to model a frail, fallible human beings that we are, you know, as Cornell says, crack vessels, we're still doing our best to model what it means to listen to somebody else in a truth-speaking spirit. Only interrupt because in a spirit of time, veritas, which literally means truth, which is what Harvard is supposed to care about, right? Is the pursuit of truth the most important thing, do you think, to the current composition of elite universities? Dr. West, do you think that is, if you had to distill, if they had to self-describe their mission statement, because to be perfectly honest, Dr. West, when I hear their own university presidents talk, it's not about truth, it's about diversity.

Oh no, no, I hear what you're saying, brother. But keep in mind what we mean by truth here, though, that yes, the pursuit of truth ought to be central, but truth is a species of the good in the sense that the way to truth requires trust, integrity, humility, openness, and respect for others saying what they say, even when you radically disagree. So truth is not some abstraction that you're just trying to grab.

It requires a process so that character formation, what I'd call soulcraft, that's old language going back through the medieval times, right? Your soul has to be shaped in such a way that you have an integrity, honesty, decency, so that your quest for truth is a genuine one, not just a rationalization of your own opinions and dog. Please, Dr. George, one minute, please comment on that. Yeah, so I mean, we got to get back to the mission of universities, which is truth-seeking. Truth-seeking for scholars as researchers, truth-seeking for students as learners, and that means that the fundamental mission is not social justice, and the fundamental mission is not training people to go into Goldman Sachs.

Those are fine. It's good that people struggle for causes they believe in. It's good that they get good jobs. We want our students to be active in the world. We want our students to get good jobs.

We want them to have good professional careers, but those are not the mission of the university, not the fundamental mission. We can carry them on fine as long as we keep our focus where it belongs on the central mission, getting at the truth of things, whether the truth is pleasant to us or not pleasant to us, whether it's what we want to hear, whether it flatters our preconceived notions, whether it serves our tribal interests, or whether it doesn't. Amen.

Stay right there, both of you. We have one more segment. Check out the book Truth Matters. Boy, is this a, we could do five hours on this topic. In fact, I bet they could teach quite a course together.

This has been a real treat. Truth Matters by Dr. George and Dr. West. Check it out right now. What does a mechanic and auto shop owner in Georgia, a taco restaurant operator in Arizona, and a life-saving medical innovator in Tennessee have in common? They're all small business owners and they're all thriving on TikTok. Across the US, over 7.5 million businesses from family-owned shops to entrepreneurs are using TikTok to compete and grow. We use TikTok all the time on The Charlie Kirk Show. In fact, 74% of businesses on TikTok say TikTok has allowed them to scale their operations, increasing sales and expanding to new locations. And that growth means jobs. Today, there's over 7.5 million US businesses on TikTok employing more than 28 million people. And that number keeps growing. Small businesses thrive on TikTok.

Learn more about TikTok's contribution to the US economy at tiktokeconomicimpact.com. Dr. George, why don't you plug the book, how people can find it and how they can see more of the dialogues between you and Mr. West, please? Well, yes, the book is available at all the online booksellers.

It's available in both paperback and, as I just learned, in hardcover, wherever books are sold. Very good. And Dr. West, is this the first collaboration between both of you as far as a book together? That's crystallized in this way.

I've been collaborating with my brother for 20 years, I'm telling you, so that it depends on what form. Very, very much so. But certainly this text is a kind of crystallization because we've been on chocolate sides, vanilla sides of cities. We've been among the well-to-do, the working classes. We've been in Catholic churches.

We've been in Baptist churches. We're just trying to bear witness, brother Charlie. We're trying to bear witness. Very good.

We've written a lot of little essays together, but this is our first book project. Truth Matters, a dialogue on fruitful disagreement in the age of division. We're going to end on that topic. So, Dr. West, I'll throw this question to you, which is truth matters.

You would argue probably that we are increasingly a country that has not valued truth and we're not pursuing truth nearly enough. You ran for the presidency rather admirably, which, by the way, I have to thank you for taking a lot of votes away from Kamala Harris. So please, thank you very much for that. I'm here publicly thanking you for your service to the Republic, my friend. You played a critical role in saving the civilization. So with that, though, what would you say, and nothing you could say will offend me or the audience, are some of the barriers towards the pursuit of truth in our society, in our culture today, and what can we do about them?

I think we have a narrow ideological lens and we're not willing to learn from a variety of perspectives. Lift every voice is a very anthem of black folk. When you lift every voice, you're like a jazz woman or a blues man. You're willing to go beyond being an echo and become a voice.

You all were talking about Hillsdale College. I just want to shout my dear brother Bradley Beartzer and his magisterial texts on Russell Kirk, as well as Christopher Dawson. Never met him, learned much from him. Why? He's lifting his voice. I'm lifting my voice.

We're bouncing off against each other. Never met him in the flesh, but why? Because we're involved in the quest for truth. And I, Charlie, I'm going to let your listeners in on a little secret here. There is nobody, there is no conservative scholar, including myself, who knows more about, or has a deeper appreciation of the conservative intellectual tradition than brother Cornel West here. Now, he just revealed a little of that with his reference to Brad Beartzer's book about Russell Kirk. Cornell is a student. He understands Russell Kirk and not just Russell Kirk, Edmund Burke, Burke and Kirk, Leo Strauss, Eric Vogtland.

One place you're always going to find Cornel West is at the Vogtland meeting of the American Political Science Association. So, Cornell, again, is practicing what he's preaching. He's walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

He has done his best to understand and he does appreciate the conservative tradition. We have some wonderful dialogues about this. I mean, I tell you something, he knows Burke better than I know Marx. I'm trying to understand Marx, but he knows Burke better than I know Marx.

It's very good. And so let's end the conversation with this, which is marching orders for the audience. Would you encourage them to find or to, let's just say, resurrect a broken relationship that fell apart because of politics? How do you guys keep the humanity in your dialogue? Because so many people in this audience have brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and grandkids that won't talk to them anymore just because they might wear a Bernie Sanders shirt or wear a Trump hat. I'm sure both of you guys are saddened and troubled by that. What is your final marching orders for the millions of people in the audience that have seen severed relationships because of differing worldviews?

Dr. West first and then Dr. George. Because love is the most profound force in human life and in human history. And the last thing you ever want to do is to truncate any kind of flow of love because of a political or ideological issue.

When you sit down in your Thanksgiving around your family with your mama and grandmother and aunts and uncles, keep the love flowing even though you might have political differences because love is the fruit of the red, produces the fruit of the red joy that will help sustain you in your move from mama's womb to tomb. Dr. George, final thoughts, please, on the severing of precious relationships over politics and worldview. Absolutely. I completely agree with what Cornell just said.

Let me just add this. If you want humanity, practice humility. It is very difficult to be inhumane, to treat other people as things or objects or even as enemies to be destroyed if you have humility. And humility is the fruit of our recognition of our own fallibility, our own weakness, our own failings. When we recognize that, not just notionally, but existentially, we genuinely acknowledge our fallibility, our weaknesses, then we can relate to others with humility. And you need intellectual humility if you're going to be a truth seeker. And then the other virtue that I think we all need to practice and model, especially for our children and for our students, is the virtue of courage. Being willing to state your opinion with love toward others who disagree, but nevertheless, to be willing to take a chance, speak an unpopular truth that takes courage. And we need courage. If we would just bring together humility and courage, we'd be nine tenths of the way to where we need to be.

God bless you both. Thank you for the model and example of what civil discussion means. And Dr. West, I do want to have you on another time where we can show that civil discussion on full display about some of the top issues.

But I wanted to really make this the primary topic. Both of you. Thank you so much, Dr. George. Great to see you. And thank you both for your great work. Truth Matters is the book.

Everyone should go purchase it. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always. Freedom at CharlieKirk.com. Thank you so much for listening and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.