Men's Conference: Panel Discussion

You guys be seated here for a minute. We want to begin this, our kind of final session, I guess, here tonight, doing something a little bit different.

We see up here, looks like the black vest brigade, but it was not planned at all. Guys don't wear matching outfits, write that down. I want to introduce, we're going to do a little just kind of a short kind of panel, just a little bit of interaction.

It's one thing to hear the Word of God taught, which is of course very important, but just to hear what it's fleshed out, what it looks like. And so, got a few guys up here on stage with me. Got here first in the middle, the guy with the ridiculous list at the beginning, Bo Butler. Bo is 33 years old, same age as Jesus when he died. So, think of all that Jesus had accomplished by the time he was your age and how is your life doing? He's been married for nine years. He has two kids. Bo has been our Blue Ridge campus pastor for quite some time and he is stepping into a role as our spiritual formations pastor here, which means that the continued development of our men's ministries here, as well as things that will really of all ages and different things are going to begin to fall under his direction.

And so, we're really excited about that. Bo became a Christian as a sophomore in college where he played football and was nigh unto professional is what I always say. It's not entirely true, but he did play football in college. He was also a synchronized swimmer.

Is that for real? It's on the list. It is a fact that you were a synchronized... No, I didn't write that. You didn't write that.

Okay, well, it's on the list. He also wrote down here that he is from Texas, which is only a big deal to other people from Texas. So, number two, our second person here to his left, Jason Williamson. Jason is married with three kids. Jason is an assistant professor at the McIntire School of Commerce at the University of Virginia. He is also an expert in information technology. He's co-authored several books and a global leader for management consulting and advisory for Amazon Web Services.

You've heard of Amazon and they've got quite a presence here now in the Triangle area. And so, Jason works with them as well as teaches up at UVA. He also served for a time in the Marine Corps and was the inspiration for the character Gomer Pyle.

That's also a little known fact. Chris Green is next to him. Some of you recognize Chris Green. He's one of our campus pastors here at the Briar Creek campus. He is 40 years old. He's been married for 16 years. He has four kids. In college, he was a part of a Christian rap and hip hop group and performed live on BET's 106 and Park. Is that correct? Okay.

I'm not sure everything written down in this list is true, but I think most of it is true. There, he has a heart and passion for helping, especially young men. It's just something he's been talking about since he's been on staff here, which he has been for several years, especially, not exclusively, but especially young African American men learn how to become men that lead their families and children on mission for God.

And so, we who are at the Briar Creek campus are blessed to be under his leadership. Rodell Hernandez, which is behind me, who has the majestic voice who led us just a moment ago in great is thy faithfulness, completely off the cuff. Rodell is 38. He has been married for more than 16 years. He has three kids. He is one of our directional elders, as is Chris Green down the end there. He is from Cuba, along with half of the other Republican presidential candidates. He has planted two Spanish-speaking churches in Raleigh prior to serving now for several years as the pastor of our, preaching pastor of our Summit in Espanol campus. He has a wonderful gift to us.

He worked for several years in the IT industry. So, every one of these guys, three of them are pastors now, but every one of them, except for Bo and me, have had experience in the real world, quite a bit of experience. And so, I want you to just not hear from pastors tonight. And I'm going to call an audible here and do something just because I have the mic. I told you my dad is here. And so, I want, Dad, if you will, you don't have a black vest on, but would you come up and join us on the panel here?

I didn't prep you at all for these things, but... We'll take a seat here by Rod Dale. He'll give you that. So, thank you. Let me ask you a few questions.

I'll throw them out. I'll direct it to maybe different ones of you and you guys help these guys, help us understand what it means to lead spiritually. Let me ask a question that may have arisen in the minds of some people. Can you lead spiritually in your home, if you're married, if you feel like your wife is more spiritual than you?

Maybe you're a new Christian or maybe you just feel like, man, she's a spiritual leader in our family. So, Jason, I'll look at you and I'll have you answer that question. I won't say why, but go ahead. J.D.

knows my wife Susan pretty well. I have four kids, by the way. What did I say?

Three? That's okay. Who wrote this list?

Bo? I didn't write all of it, did some of it. That was my fault.

That was my bad. I think most of us here in this room who are married probably agree that we married up in many respects. I think my wife is a Deborah in many respects, so I really identify with this question. Because I look at her, I kind of joke sometimes like, man, she's just like the voice of God for me a lot of times. She became a Christian after we met in college.

We grew up together in Richmond, met in high school, dated at the very end. I was one of those kids that's kind of always knew Jesus. I think if you looked on paper, you'd be like, oh, this guy has been a Christian forever. I really, really, really look up to her spiritually. So I think the short answer is there are times I think when I really identify with the fact that I've married someone that has at least a spiritual sensitivity much deeper than I do.

But the other side of that coin, JD, is I think the times when I'm not leading, it's very clear. She's like, Jason, I need you to do these three things or these four things. It's not really an implication on her level of spiritualness or not. So I think guys that are long in the tooth and the faith or brand new, I really don't know if that question matters at some level because she needs me to lead.

Wherever she is in her spiritual walk that day, it doesn't matter. So I think I feel like there are days when she's so much deeper than me. But I just I can't use that as an excuse to not step up when I need to.

Yeah. Chris, you got anything to add to that? Yeah, I would agree that, you know, a lot of times, you know, even what we heard earlier about our wives being, you know, a helpmate to come alongside of us. You know, often I know in First Peter three and seven, you know, it just tells us that we should honor our wives and understand her as the weaker vessel, not weaker as in like strength, but weaker is more fragile. And it's amazing to me, you know, how often my wife, being the more fragile vessel, can sense things that I just normally can't sense in my children, in my workplace, where it might be. So often, you know, I find myself, you know, hearing from her, you know, a lot of wisdom from her in that manner.

But as you were saying, you know, and this is my responsibility, you know, to continue to make sure I lead well. So I think that's why I feel like a lot of times my spiritual leadership in the home is shown by my decision to defer to the wisdom of my wife and to the choices. I feel like spiritual leadership means that nine out of 10 arguments I intentionally lose. Not arguments about what is right, but arguments about what we're going to do, because if I'm going to love her like Christ loved the church, it means sometimes I'm going to, well almost all the time, I'm going to put her preferences above mine.

And it also means that I recognize that God has given her. I've heard that I'm weaker, you know, that you were quoting from 1 Peter. We hear weaker, we hear inferior. But think of it like a crowbar versus a thermometer. A thermometer in some way is weaker, but it's not, that doesn't mean that it's inferior.

In fact, there's many things, a whole world of things a thermometer can do that a crowbar can't do. And so that's good. What would, Rodale, how do you keep Jesus at the center of your family? I would love to answer that. I just want to clear that my hints are not little. What? Yeah, okay. These are huge.

Huge. Okay, little pastor. Thank you. Thank you. Anyhow. Thank you, Scott, for inspiring me.

Now, you know, there are obviously, the obvious things do matter. You know, my kids were at 7 a.m. laying hands on me this morning. Each of them, they're 7, 9, and 11, praying for me because they knew that I was going to be here. And so involving the family in your prayer life and having time in the Word. But, you know, this is going to sound maybe odd, but one of the things I do to keep Jesus at the center of my family is fight laziness every day. And I know that we don't see ourselves as being part of that word, lazy, because all of us in this room work 55 hours a week, 50 to 60 hours a week. And so when I say lazy, you think, well, I'm not lazy.

He's not talking to me. But a biblical man is not lazy about seeking the face of God. And I disciple guys all the time that are not lazy because they work 60 hours a week, but they're lazy to seek the face of God. One of the verses that one of our Spanish elders at the Spanish campus, Lloyd Mann, uses a lot that I love. It's James 4 where he says, draw near to God, resist the devil, and the devil will flee from you.

And he points out the first thing on that verse is to draw near to God, to submit to God. And that's where we become lazy. So honestly, you know, we have got to seek the face of God. And I know we can work 55 hours and just miss that, but seek the face of God.

We're not lazy doing that. And of course, as you do that and your family witnesses you doing that, you know, that is just a great way to keep Jesus in the center, seek his face. Rodell, one of the reasons I ask you that question is because I hear you probably more than anybody else I know. I feel like the stories you tell from your family usually involve you telling your kids or explaining, you know, like my family and I, we were in our prayer time or this is what came up. And I thought, I think Rodell's kids know a lot about your relationship to God. I don't think it's so much that you sit down and catechize them.

Although, you know, I'm sure it's important, but as much as it is just, you know, that I think they do that. Dad, let me ask you, because my dad has never been in full-time ministry, right? And you worked as a plant manager of a textile factory in, I don't know, probably 60, 65 hours a week, I would guess. Was always on the deacon board at the church and put in a lot of hours. We were busy as a family growing up. But how did you, you know, keep, because that was always so clear at our home is that this was the center.

How did you keep that in the midst of all the busyness and all the demands of the job? How did you keep the kingdom of God first? Because you were the one that taught me that Matthew 633 to put God first. How did you do that in the midst of everything else? I think it had to go back to a time when I made a decision, or at least the Lord was working in my heart, when you and your sister came along, that there had to be some priorities in my life.

It was always my why. Christ was first when I got saved when I was 27 years old. Was a youth leader, was a very active in the church, and I was religious and lost.

And when I came to Christ, things changed. God came first, my wife second, and when you and your sister came along, I had to prioritize things. There were things that I said I would love to do, but I can't because my family comes before my play. And my family came before my work. Even though I spent a lot of hours, those things that I would have loved to have done, fish, hunt, play golf, no. My children and my wife came before that. So I think that, through the word of God, in teaching me those things, as I studied and prepared, I think the Lord taught me a lot of things about priorities, and that was the key. Yeah, now that you think about it, I didn't see you play much golf on Saturdays. You probably enjoyed that, didn't you?

Because you were going to soccer games and all that stuff. So, have you guys anything to add, just about keeping Jesus at the center of your family? Yeah, I do. I think that one of the things that keeps Jesus at the center, I think, is repentance. The more you can model and actually really mean repentance, when you repent to your wife, when you say, I'm wrong, I realize I'm wrong and I'm not just going to give you lip service, I'm going to show you the fruit of that. I might have to repent to my children. I'm sorry, I was too angry. I shouldn't have said that to you.

That was way out of line. When they see that model, and it not just being this one event that you repent, or you just come to church and you repent, but they see it modeled in every way that you do, even amongst our staff, when I'm out of line, or if I didn't do something the way I was supposed to do it, it really creates a more Christ-centered environment. I think, naturally, we want to be at the center. I'm naturally moving towards the center of my marriage. I'm moving towards the center of my parenting, my job. Repentance is what keeps Jesus, if you will, at the center during that time.

I think that's really huge. I can't remember who said it, or I may have heard you say it, but if there's one thing that I want to teach my kids, it's to trust and hope in Jesus. If all they ever see is that Daddy seems to have been perfect, because in their eyes, I kind of already am, because I'm their dad, but I want to teach them that Daddy's a broken center, and Daddy's selfish, and Daddy has to repent to Mommy, and Daddy's not perfect, and Jesus loves him, and you can have the same grace, too. I think that's probably one of the things that I, for many years, has overlooked, is the need to just repent.

The way I spoke to your mother at dinner is because I was selfish, and that's why Daddy needs Jesus. Bo, talk to us a little bit about your quiet time routines, how you, I think, keep your relationship with God active and alive. One of the things that's very clear about you when I hear you talking is that you're constantly talking about people that you're sharing Jesus with. How do you keep both your relationship with God and your relationship with the mission, how do you keep that central in your family? Well, time with God is, I feel like I, maybe only recently, in the past couple of years, have started to feel some freedom that it doesn't always have to look a certain way. I think I really used to struggle a lot more with legalism in that area than I realized I thought I had to have a certain number of minutes, I had to look at the Bible a certain way, I had to involve a journal at some point, even though I couldn't stand it, I had a hard time doing it, and I had to read something. And I think as God has helped me become more secure in the gospel, that I rest only on what He's done, and that even this time is really, it does not in any way change His favor towards me, I feel more free to now, sometimes it looks like I'm reading through and I'm just engaging with God as I read through. Sometimes I'm actually picking a part of a verse, I want to understand it. Sometimes I've had to tell myself I'm not going to pick up a pen because I'm too tempted to make it into a sermon right now versus just talk to God. A lot of times I usually have like a small devotional, like there's a Jack Miller, I think it's Daily Grace, it's like a page worth of kind of, I feel like I need something to pry my heart and kind of wake me up and start to help my heart engage with God. So I usually do something like that before I spend time reading the Word, and then depending on kind of what's going on in my life that season, I might study or I might read and pray. So that's most of the times getting up early, that's hard because kids always want to, my kids are all over the place.

Some days are up at five, some days are up at six thirty, some days are up at eight, you never know. But I want to get in the Word on the couch so that when my daughter gets up, she sees me there, sometimes I have to ask her, you can sit here with me, I want you to be quiet so I can spend time. What was your other question? Stop there, I asked another question, but let me just camp there for a minute.

Do you have something? I think probably for most of us, having a daily devotional is a challenge, and I think it's a matter of, again, priority. I recall going to a seminar back when J.D. was three years old, the speaker saying, stand up if you've read the Bible through completely. I couldn't stand. I was so ashamed that here I'd been a Christian for five years and hadn't read the Bible through, and I said, God, with your help, I'm going to do that.

But it was still more of a duty, more of a, it wasn't a joy. And I remember one night before I went to bed, and I had to get up because I worked, I usually was at work at six thirty, and I had to get up early, and I thought, Lord, I can't get up any earlier. And I said, if you will wake me up in the morning, 30 minutes before I normally get up, I'll have devotion. And this was like five thirty. I was supposed to get up. And I recall looking at the clock. It was five o'clock and I was wide awake. And I said, Lord, I said, five thirty, not six.

I mean, not five. And it was literally as if the Lord was saying to me that morning when I was in bed saying, I know you said five thirty, but I couldn't wait. And that tells us that God desires to spend time with us more than we do with Him. And that changed my prayer life. And since that time, it's been blessed that time together with Him in the morning. What's interesting about that story is one of my clearest few memories of before five years old, because everything is just kind of a blur, but is getting up at oh dark thirty as a four year old. And I knew exactly where you'd be. And it was in that little living room. And I always knew that you would either be sitting in that little yellow chair with your Bible open, or you'd be down on your knees.

You know, between five and six. And I know that just in reflection, there was never really a time that I doubted there was a God, because I saw my daddy talk to him every day. And I saw what it meant for him to be the center of my family. Applause Well, we could do this for another hour, I'm sure. But let me just ask you guys, let's just do it real quick.

We'll kind of go to, we'll start with you, Chris Green. What's one piece of advice that you would give to guys that are married with families? And the other thing that you really is like, man, this is what I would say. And we'll have to do it on the shorter side, because I'm going to go back to a second time and ask you what you would say to single men in our group, whether they're teenagers or young adults.

Well, I would say first, you know, for the married men out there, I think JD hit on it earlier in our first session. You know, when you really, if you really ask yourself that question, like how have I out-served my spouse? How have I out-served my children today?

You know, Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom. It is amazing, the blessing in doing that, the humility that it creates in you as a husband and just the way it models, you know, just serving leadership. So I think that that is huge. It has been a blessing for me with my marriage, you know, here going into 17 years strong.

I love spending time with my wife, love my wife, and I think that's what has made it beautiful. When you got two people that are trying to out-serve each other, it's going to be really difficult for that thing to fall apart, I'm telling you. So I think that is key. You know, for single guys out there, Oh, come back to that one. Let's let that marinate for a minute, all right?

Go ahead, Jason. I think it might be, you know, speaking to the people that aren't quite where they feel like they should be is, you know, think about what life is, what story do you want to have five years from now, ten years from now? You know, you want that story, you know, right there. And so I would encourage you to kind of think about that story and write it and, you know, just kind of steal an idea that we use at Amazon is just have a bias for action, meaning do something now. Don't wait for the idea to culminate. You don't have to have all your ducks in a row.

A lot of times your wife, like, doesn't even care if you have it done right. Just do something, you know? And I think, you know, writing your story that way is some advice to kind of help you get there because otherwise life's just going to happen to you, you know?

And before you know it, you know, you're like me, I'm 43, like what just happened five years from now, you know, or five years ago kind of thing. I would say be aware of the subtle shift from you leading and thinking for your wife to letting kind of abdicating that spiritual leadership to the church or to other women because when you're in a good church where you know that she's being taught God's word and she has godly women around her, it's, you don't see the need as much and so it's easy. I've at times let, I've stopped really thinking and praying and evaluating, like what's going on in her life?

How can I help push her forward or encourage her? So I would say, one, just not abdicating and recognizing that there's something that I can offer her that even though godly women around her are really important and her church is vital, God called me to do something and leading and thinking for her, but maybe more than any of that is I want to woo her to Jesus, not push Jesus on her. And I think at times because of my personality I've not done that, but recently he's been giving us some victories where I just start to share what God's doing and teaching and maybe share a verse. I just see a big difference in the way she wants to go to God after that, first when I come at her preaching and telling her all the right answers.

Three quick things real quick. The biggest lie the enemy wants you to buy is that Jesus is not sweet as anything else, but he is. So seek his face. Number two, a simple desire to be with your wife to death do you part. It's a simple desire to walk together no matter what.

And three, lead. I remember when I came to this church in 2007, God spoke to me, this is your church. And I went back home and I said to Abby, I think this is what God is saying, but I wanted God to speak to her because I was afraid out of my mind. And so we prayed 10 months. It didn't take God 10 months to tell us. It took me 10 months to believe it. And it was a very dry time.

I felt like God was in Cancun drinking a margarita. Really, like he was speak to Abby, speak to Abby. And it was one of the handful of times in 16 years, probably two or three times in our 16 years of marriage where I knew I needed to lead.

I said I know you haven't heard from God, but this is what we need to do. And so lead because sometimes we're just so afraid of failure we're so full of ourselves, so full of pride that we're just, the reason we want her to lead is so that we can blame her later. And that's just being a coward. So lead with humility, but lead.

Well spiritual leadership to me is I think God given responsibility and so many times we forfeit that for sake of just, like he said, we kind of don't want to take that responsibility on. And I think that's important. J.D. 's mother and I have been married 46 years and we were together this morning and she looked over and she said, you know, she said, right now this is better than even when we were dating. And I remember what it took to woo her. I was in a college where there were seven guys to every girl. And let me tell you what, that was tough. And you had to work at that and you had to move quick because all that was left was ugly.

But I do. You also just gave your advice for the single guys right there. But I still think I have to treat her today like I did when we were dating and that is to woo her but it's through the love of Christ and that's your main thing.

That's good. All right, real quick guys, we got to move fast. Chris, we'll start with you again.

Just something quick for single guys. You know, I don't underestimate patients, single guys being holy, living in the obedience that God has told you. The Bible says let patients have her perfect work. God is working something out for you as a husband, as a father that is quick, is very easy to underestimate.

And it's well worth the wait. That doesn't mean you need to sit on your hind parts. In country I use hind parts. You don't need to sit on your hind parts. You need to get, you definitely still should be involved.

I think with your married friends and their children and you should learn, be around them, model that, see that, let that begin to work something in you. It'll be well worth the wait. That's good. Jason? I think it's the same vein. Just kind of use that football analogy of a running back. I don't care how good you are. If your line hasn't made a hole, you go too soon, the play is going to fall apart. So I think in that idea of being patient, if you've got somebody that you just are in love with but your friends are telling you hold on, if your career is, you've got a business idea you want to do, but the people in your life that know God and know you are telling you to hold on, good ideas usually only get better when you let them simmer. So let that play develop before you try to punch that hole. I agree with that. I would just maybe, I think the importance of learning how to be a godly brother to other men in Christ before you are married is a training ground for what it means to be a husband. I think men who do not have deep relationships with other men, that's a concern for me. That's a red flag to me that there's avoidance for some reason.

There's isolation. And those patterns don't just go away because I get married. So the ways I struggled with my male friendships are the same ways I really struggled with my wife because the friendship is such a huge part of the marriage. So I'd say learn to actually pursue other brothers in Christ, holding each other accountable, sharing deep things about what's going on in your life and seeking accountability and being on a mission together.

If that's happening, that's a pattern of your life, that carries over and that begins to be the way that you handle your marriage. What a great time to do great things for God. You have such a bandwidth. You know, as a single guy by God's grace, I was able to plan a few churches and help plan others as a married guide as well by God's grace.

But what a bandwidth you have. All you need to plan a church is a Bible and the Holy Spirit. And so, you know, go out there, do great things for God. And again... All you need to plan a church is a Bible and the Holy Spirit. That's right. Can you tell that to our church planters?

Because they ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's right. There you go.

I can show you where they are. You heard it. The man of God.

That's right. And again, nothing is sweeter than Jesus, so don't buy anything else. I've worked with young people pretty much all our life and I would say that one of the key things for young men is don't just talk godly. Be godly. Be who God tells you to be and do not back down regardless of the pressure.

And I think that's what women are looking for, men who will lead, who are what they say they are, who follow God's Word. And I can assure you, you won't have to wait long because there will be a line waiting for you. Yes, sir. Could you put your hands together and thank these brothers? Thank you, guys. Thank you.