Hard Questions: Ask R.C.

Hi, Dr. Sproul.

My name is Zachariah Loftus. In 1 Corinthians 13 verses 9 through 10, it says, For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. My question is, in regards to the sign gifts, would you please explain whether or not you believe the sign gifts have ceased?

Dr. R.C. Sproul will answer that and other questions next on Renewing Your Mind. There are some passages in Scripture that are difficult to understand. Some interpret it one way, others interpret it another. We all need help sometimes understanding and applying passages like that. So on today's program, we've selected several excellent questions posed to Dr. Sproul at various events through his many years of ministry. And as we're about to discover, R.C. wasn't afraid to take on the tough questions, even from the skeptics.

My name is Nick Dobras, and I listen in Pittsburgh, and I have a question. Why, R.C., do you describe God as such a mean guy? He sounds more like Vito Corleone than a loving Jesus. Jesus sounds pretty loving most of the time, but God sounds like a real egotistical jerk. Why would I want to worship him?

I have no idea. In fact, I think for myself, when I die, I think I'll be dead. But if I'm not dead, I'd rather go to hell than go to heaven and be with a God like that. Goodbye.

Thank you, Nick, for your question. I've certainly answered this question 10,000 times, I think, in my 50 years of teaching theology. But first of all, the question assumes that I present God as a big meanie and that the God that I describe is, as you suggested, mean, whereas Jesus in the New Testament is so much more loving and kind than God, particularly the God of the Old Testament.

And first of all, let me say that it doesn't surprise me at all that you say that you would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and be in the presence of such a big meanie that I am presenting here. Let me say to that that I don't think there's a scintilla of meanness in God whatsoever. In fact, what we're looking at predominantly in the character of God is His holiness. And I think that the thing that we dread more than anything else, Nick, is that holiness. And the problem is because He's holy and we're not, and we're always uncomfortable in the presence of the holy.

You remember when Peter became aware of the holiness of Christ, he said, please depart from me, for I am a sinful man. I mean, the last person that anybody in hell wants to see in hell is God, and for this very reason. The reason we go to hell is because we are in a state of profound and continuous rebellion against God.

You've expressed it well. The Scriptures tell us that by nature we're in a state of enmity towards God. That is, we hate Him, and we don't hate Him because He's mean. We hate Him because He's holy, and His holiness requires righteousness from us, and we don't want to give it. And when we don't give it, God manifests His holiness and His justice by punishing us for our wickedness. And again, if we hate Him to start with, and we disobey Him because we hate Him, and then He punishes us for that, we just hate Him all the more. And I would say that what you've expressed here today, Nick, is that you're exhibit A for natural man.

This is your natural tendency. This is what we all have by nature, this same hostility and antipathy towards the eternal God. Now, you make a contrast between God the Father and Jesus being mean and being loving. Sometimes we say that in the Old Testament God seems to be much more concerned about justice than He is concerned about mercy, and then you get to the New Testament and you see Jesus is more concerned about mercy than He is about justice or about God's wrath. Now, the history of the Old Testament, on the other hand, if you read it from cover to cover, you will see again and again and again and again and again, almost ad nauseam, a story of the repeated grace of God against a rebellious people. And so the Old Testament is filled with illustrations and teachings about the everlasting and merciful kindness of God.

One of the most important Hebrew concepts in the Old Testament is the concept of gesed, which means God's covenant or tender, loyal mercy. And there's no place in all of Scripture where you see a more violent expression of God's wrath and justice than in the New Testament when you see the cross where Christ gives Himself as a sacrifice for those of us who are alienated from God, and He lays down His life for us and takes upon Himself the just punishment of God for sin. Jesus wasn't playing games there, and God wasn't playing games there. God wasn't being mean to His Son. He was requiring a just payment for wickedness. If God did not punish wickedness, He would not be just, and if He were not just, He would not be good. And the fact that He is good and He is just may make Him appear to you and to others to be mean. But that is slander against a righteous and holy God who does all things well. And I just have to say to you, Nick, you need to repent of that, and soon, or you will regret it forever. Yes, my name is Daniel Banning.

I listen to 100.7 in Dallas, Fort Worth. I would like to ask a question of R.C. about his understanding of the words, Hades, hell, paradise, and Abraham's bosom. I have a Sunday School teacher teaching in an adult class who reverends the original languages to these, and is teaching that there is not a literal heaven at this time. It's a future event, and that people who have died, die kind of in a purgatory state, and they're waiting to meet Christ at the end time, but right now they're just in a place of the dead. If you could shed some light on that, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

Hi, Daniel, and thank you for your question. It's a provocative question indeed. First of all, when we look at the different words that are used in the Bible, the word Hades, for example, is indeed the Greek word for the region of the dead or the underworld that is traversed by the River Styx and all of that in Greek mythology, but it was a common reference in the day to the place of destruction in the afterlife, and so it has been brought into Christian currency as a synonym for hell. The Old Testament word that is used is sheol, and it's not sharply defined. It's a somewhat vague concept of a shadowy place of where people go at the time of death, but in the New Testament we have progressive revelation that gives us more insight. Now, in the history of Judeo-Christianity, the place of paradise was often linked to what was called the bosom of Abraham, and in that sense this paradisiacal relationship was not a place of punishment or torment but was a place of joy and in many respects is synonymous with the concept of heaven. Now, the idea that heaven is something that we don't participate in until the new heaven and the new earth is on a collision course with Christian orthodoxy. The church has taught for 2,000 years, and I think correctly so, that the souls who depart this world go immediately into the presence of Christ, into our heavenly state. It is a disembodied state. It's what's called the intermediate state because our physical bodies have not yet been resurrected, but we will have a continuity of personal conscious existence in our souls. And the Apostle Paul, for example, described the state of being present with the Lord immediately upon death as being far better than what we enjoy in this world, and that it is an immediate experience. It's been argued by heretics, who have taught the doctrine of psychopenikia, or what is commonly called soul sleep, that at death people go into this state of suspended animation, and they're not aware of any passage of time. And so it seems like the twinkling of an eye between the moment they die and when they awake in heaven, it seems like that to them, just as we have the experience when we go to sleep at night, we're not conscious of missing eight hours of our existence.

When we wake up in the morning, it seems as though only moments have passed. But I think a careful look at the teaching of the New Testament on heaven makes it abundantly clear that there is no concept here of psychopenikia, that even though Jesus says she's not dead, but she's sleeping, that's a New Testament euphemism for death, but you can't draw from that kind of language that the state of existence after death is one of some kind of suspended animation. So I would strongly disagree with the teaching that you received on this point. Well, biblical clarity is so important when we're dealing with questions like these. Our next question was asked during an Ask R.C.

broadcast. A woman wrote in to ask about her sister, who was a professing Christian, but said she wanted to leave her long marriage for another man. This woman wanted to know what she should say to her sister. And second, what is the state of her sister's soul if she's willing to throw away a long marriage and her relationship with her children?

Well, it's a difficult thing too because here it's not only a matter of principle, but there's also the question of prudence involved and how does one approach a particular individual about this. Now the Bible does give us some principual direction on this. If we see our brother, and in this case that's usually a metaphor for our spiritual brothers, but in this case it's her blood sister overtaken by a sin, it is not only an option, it's a duty to go to her and to plead with her to repent. And if she doesn't, then it is the obligation of that older sister to take the matter to the church, particularly if this woman who wants to leave her husband because she's fallen in love with somebody else, that that is a matter for church discipline because that woman who's deciding to do that is decided for the sake of her love for this other man to engage in what the Bible would consider to be a gross and heinous sin, a sin severe enough that if she refused to repent of it, could and in fact should end in her excommunication from the body of Christ. So that decision that this woman who has her lover is facing is a decision that represents extreme peril to her soul.

And we can look at this one or two ways. If she professes to be a Christian, it doesn't mean she is. Obviously to leave one's husband for an illicit lover, no matter how much she's in love with this other man, is an act of radical disobedience to God, which may demonstrate that her profession of faith is a false profession and that she's not a Christian at all. And if she persists in that without repentance and then the church does excommunicate her, what the church would be doing would be declaring her an unbeliever. Just because the church declares a person an unbeliever does not mean that they are an unbeliever. But the church says you don't have a credible profession of faith at this point because the way you're living contradicts your profession of faith. And also the purpose of excommunication is not simply to purify the church, but also to drive a person to repentance so that they, if they are a Christian, will come to themselves, repent, and be restored to the body of Christ. So the other option is that this is a person who's making a genuine profession of faith, who's simply caught up so emotionally in her love affair that she's about to make an act of betrayal to Christ. And again, that's a very, very serious thing.

It does enormous damage to her spiritual growth and livelihood. Hi, Dr. Sproul. My name's Zachariah Loftus. In 1 Corinthians 13 verses 9 through 10 it says, For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. My question is, in regards to the sign gifts, would you please explain what the perfect is and whether or not you believe the sign gifts have ceased? Alright, thank you, Zachariah.

A couple of things. First of all, that phrase in 1 Corinthians 13, when the perfect comes, these other things will pass away. Many people believe that the perfect that is referred to is the authoritative Scripture provided by God that would make the sign gifts unnecessary beyond that point of the formulation of the apostolic teaching. And that may or may not mean in terms of those words because those words are not given full explanation and definition by the Apostle in 1 Corinthians 13. He doesn't specifically tell us what he has in view about the perfect.

That is, it's an assumption that the perfect revelation, the perfect final draft of Scripture is what he had in view. I don't think that you can prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, that's the first part of the question.

The second part of the question is, do I think that the sign gifts are still in effect? You know, I hate it when people ask me that question because... The reason I don't like it is because rarely do people understand what I'm saying when I answer my position because I must be that inarticulate or something. But it has to do with being a professional theologian. When we use theological language, the term miracle is used in a kind of precision that is not commonly used by the public. In fact, there's not a single word for miracle in the New Testament. You have signs and powers and wonders, all of which we combine together to extrapolate a concept of the miraculous.

And I have a very narrow view of miracle. I believe that a miracle is something that is done in the outward perceivable world that only God can do, that it's an action contra naturum against nature and not just contra peccatum against sin, but against nature. And I say in that narrow sense, I believe that the sign gifts have ceased for the simple reason that in the New Testament, the signs were given to authenticate the credentials of agents of revelation, just as they were in the Old Testament. The supernatural signs were given to the prophets to confirm that they were teachers sent from God. Just like Nicodemus, I think he was sound when he said to Jesus, Teacher, we know that you are a teacher sent from God, or you would not be able to do the things that you do. And the New Testament, when trying to authenticate and vindicate its claim to final revelation, appeals to those sign gifts that were wrought by the agents of revelation in the New Covenant, namely the apostles. Now, if the appeal is sound, that the principle being that only an agent of revelation can produce an authentic miracle by God, if that's a sound argument, then obviously non-agents of revelation do not have the capacity to be that. I remember when I got into a broil with controversy with Christian booksellers several years ago when the bestselling book that year was Good Morning, Holy Spirit by Benny Hinn, where Benny Hinn was talking about his personal revelation that he received. He saw God visually, he heard His voice audibly, and he performed miracles. And I said, if all of those things are true, then I would say anything that he taught should be a portion of the next copy of the New Testament. Now, of course, nobody wanted to do that. Certainly, Benny Hinn didn't want to include his messages as being part of the New Testament.

I said, but why not? If he has all of the signs of authentication of apostolic authority, if he is an agent of revelation, then we should receive his teaching as such. But that's the point, that if it's valid to argue that the Bible is authenticated by miracles as agents of revelation, then obviously the sign gives die with the death of the last apostle.

Otherwise, the argument wouldn't be sound. But that's again, people say the birth of a baby is a miracle. Martin Luther said that the birth of a baby is a miracle.

I don't believe that. I think the birth of a baby is a marvelous thing, and it couldn't happen without the supernatural power of God. And all miracles, I believe, are supernatural acts, but not all supernatural acts are miracles in the narrow sense. I believe that God answers prayers for healing and that sort of thing. And in that sense, they're supernatural acts of God's special providence.

But that doesn't mean that they qualify as a miracle in that very narrow sense that I was explaining it. Like I said, I hate that question because I know people will get mad about it. I know they won't get it. But you asked it, I answered it, here we go.

Thank you, Dr. Sproul. Hi, I see hoping you can help my wife and I make a decision. How do you know when it's the right time to leave a church? What kind of biblical reasons need to be in place for that to be the godly thing to do, to be the right thing to do?

Thanks so much. You know, that's really a tough question. I get that question all the time from people, people who are frustrated with what's happening or not happening in their local churches when they're getting bad doctrine from the pulpit or they're in denominations that are endorsing abortion on demand and that kind of thing, other types of things that have been considered egregious forms of immorality through the history of the church. And people say, well, when do I leave a place like this?

Well, I think we distinguish among a couple of questions. I think there's a time when you must stay. I think there's a time when you may leave. And I think there's a time when you must leave. And those are not always the same times. Those are difficult questions.

But let me bracket this with two considerations. One, leaving your local church should never be a small matter. You're a part of a congregation. You took vows when you joined that church to support that church in one way or the other. And we have this merry-go-round thing in the United States now where people church hop from one church to the other with no real significant reason for leaving one church.

Maybe they don't like the color of the floor or something like that. I think that we have to be very careful about just jumping around from churches. On the other hand, the care of your soul and of your family's souls is of eternal significance and importance. And if you're in a church where you're not being fed the truth of Scripture, where the Word of God is being trampled underfoot and the sacraments abused and there's no discipline or government at all for sin, you need to run for your life. You need to get out of that church and get yourself and your family in a church where you can be nurtured and aided to grow into spiritual maturity and conformity to Christ. I don't think that we should leave over every disagreement of doctrine, but there are some doctrines that are so, so important that I think that the church can become apostate. If a church, local church or denomination, denies the central truth of the Christian faith, if you're in a church that denies the deity of Christ, denies the resurrection of Christ, denies something like that, it's not a question of you may leave. I think you must leave. If you're in a church that denies the gospel of justification by faith alone, I think you must leave. And don't think of yourself as being a missionary to stay in that place to try to save it. I think that the Bible gives us a mandate at that point to separate from unbelief. Well, that's a question and answer that certainly resonates with me.

My wife and I left a church more than 30 years ago because it was not faithful to God's Word, but by God's wonderful providence, we ended up in a church that was faithful. It was life-changing, and that's where I was first exposed to the teaching of Dr. R.C. Sproul. I'm eternally grateful for that.

You're listening to Renewing Your Mind. I'm Lee Webb, and we have highlighted many Q&A sessions with Dr. Sproul from the archives of both our radio broadcasts and Ligonier conferences. These archives go back more than 20 years, and there are far more questions and answers than we've had the opportunity to broadcast this week.

So we've taken more than 60 of these sessions and put them on a single USB drive. It also includes more than two dozen of Ligonier's Crucial Questions eBooks. R.C. also wrote a book called Now That's a Good Question, and that's on there as well. And for your donation of any amount, we'll be happy to send you this wonderful collection of resources.

Our staff is not in the office today, but you can make your request and give your gift online at renewingyourmind.org. Well, it's been three years since R.C. went home to be with the Lord. He led this ministry so well. His purpose remains our purpose—to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible. And by God's grace, we will continue to carry on that mission, so we would appreciate your prayers as we begin 2021. Well, next week we will bring you some of R.C. 's most popular messages. We'll hear about God's sovereignty, the importance of the Reformation and the Atonement, and of course, the holiness of God. We hope you'll make plans to be with us beginning Monday, here on Renewing Your Mind. .