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Mormon Exaltation Dilemmas, Pt. 1 (w/ Aaron Shafovaloff)

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September 13, 2021 11:15 pm

Mormon Exaltation Dilemmas, Pt. 1 (w/ Aaron Shafovaloff)

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September 13, 2021 11:15 pm

This week Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul welcome Aaron Shafavaloff to Outer Brightness. He joined us to discuss his article “Dilemmas of Mormon Exaltation.” Aaron spent nearly three hours with us, and we’re excited to share these with you. In this first installment, we introduce Aaron and his article and discuss the first dilemma he enumerates and begin a discussion of the second.

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Your right and him and little fireflies. Thank you for coming to this new episode of rightness and were able to have your special guests and Patrick Wallace is our Christian friend. He's done as a history of apologetics and I now a seminarian so practice he's learning to ministry. So are very grateful to have you on your ethics and what we really appreciate it and we just finished an interview with our friend Jackson (on the nature of God and so now are going to try to continue summer discussion, but from Orthodox Christian perspectives and and and I've been tired of talking about orthodoxy is a device, the view of God historically mocks Christianity historically and cut our learning and reading certain books and wrestling with an understanding and so we thought that this article that Aaron Rhodes was published this month at MRM was organic by Mormonism research ministry. Thank you. Yes I was like his ministry of researching Mormonism I can remember you for correcting so it's the article that Ambrose called the limits of Mormon exaltation and so before you get to that project yourself by your background. Things are done in the past you're doing right now and he lectured us very going to the article just quickly.

I spent almost 15 years in Utah doing weekly evangelism to Mormons, minus winter and was part of three different church plants. There so so blessed by the wife and three kids with encoded head.

I was working at home.

I thought I could work from home and go to seminary. In the evenings and so I moved to Kansas City and the idea here is to spend the season of life being acted more academically trained and the whole business I could go back to Utah, God willing, and reenter the mission field.

There I met with also Mormonism research ministry, which is an evangelical ministry that does training apologetics and evangelism picnic quite enjoy it. I love Mormon people love seeing them come to Christ. I love seeing them know the God of the Bible every every season of life where I get a little discouraged about how much it's like counting doesn't soil I get an email from somebody that says no you so much.

It's been so helpful and I left the Mormon church.

I know Jesus down middle local church with other believers while so it's just God's at work and also just love who God is. So I've been out here and theorize that you even if ministry involves zero converts would still be a joy and pleasure in trumpeting the supremacy of who God is a man you think your brother love that I think I first came across your name when I was kind of a doubting latter-day St. questioning Latter Day Saints around 2014 2015 Natalie started researching debates and you know most of the debates are held in Utah are on your on your YouTube channel. The ones you know that a reader that James White in particular has I think there are several debates because of their subjective can introduce people to your YouTube channel is there curious to see videos are yeah 2006 I started posting you YouTube.com/Jesus, not Joseph. I started posting in 2006. Stories of those who have left build his church had become Bible believing Christians and we have training sessions and antisocial. A lot of the videos I was me coming down to Manti, Utah, and there would be a group of Christians their training in the mornings and evenings. Late nights doing evangelism on the street at the larger story. It's really cool story, but we have people there that would gather and train each other and just as you record these training sessions I started putting those training sessions out and in getting more interviews of people who have their stories to tell and I think one of the first videos I did was with Bill McKeever explaining the untold story of the death of Joseph Smith just blew up but you know I'm not a YouTube or in the sense of no really paying a lot of attention to have to marketing and click big titles and great intros, I usually just record an event like that and I put it up and forget about and that's it and I just know in the next season of life. All I will add more stuff. Maybe a life member soft that it it it's been neato because it's like dropping a seed in the new flick the gospel of Mark where the performer wakes up one day is like his crops come from business earlier its YouTube videos have a lot of reached this people are lurking and watching questioning and illustrated some security where apology radio for apology radio.

The copter style gems of like how they that the street evangelism things like that training gathered there. I love those guys are great and I think like Matthew, I came across your stuff probably right around the time I was leaving the LDS church thinks on the videos on there and McIntyre were some of the first that I started watching on YouTube to get my feet wet. Like okay what what what are these Christians actually say is when I was a teenager, went to the Manti pageant. We boarded you all like the plague because that was kind of the direction we were given but yet thankful for your ministry, and thankfully drum of the special report of the conversation. Thank you. What which seminary you out in Kansas City, Midwestern Baptist theological seminary possible and I just out of chaos of the unknown that you don't live strangely kind of there is when I attributed that I attended where you are preparing for an exam. I think I got a Baptist exam was actually really fun, like your notes and everything so delicate favorite subject or topic that you know the kind of got into it seminary so far. I'll definitely Greek. I've been developing software for helping people learn create some pricing exercises and automatically generated tools for mixing and matching and then take an intermediate great this semester so just this is medium a geek point. But beyond parsing redoing six syntactical classifications down so I'm I'm brainstorming on how to help you software to help people with varying degrees of difficulty is pedagogy. Gentleness that just figure out how to step through sections of Scripture that are easier than others. In Greek and you can't drill and kill practice and usury like mounts to relate no cost burden has a lot to take in. But if you could if I could learn a paradigm by practicing it like a thousand times worse than ridiculous like that. Just you know every time like walking somewhere in my phone drag-and-drop that starts to relate sink in two helpful you and I just I'm a software guy so Greek. Greek is been great also because it does make them blending the two worlds. But there's also like geology one. Try to get a lot of my theology when reading done over the summer before it starts this fall and will be diving into Aquinas and Anselm and course the divine simplicity rabbit hole went down that while loved it and got admit learning about cushion history. That's been a joy. So now some a lovely addendum with the Greek software and seeing the post you made about that on Facebook that I did my M.Div. while working full time of 20+ year career in the health insurance industry so I know the challenge of trying to work full time and then also your continued theological studies and I've been meaning to kinda revisit Greek song kind of excited to try and make use of custom stuff to come up with as it looks very intuitive and and and I love some of the software for memorizing Scripture that I use on my phone so up before the user must know she were to go with the study stuff at the W a great tool for enough ministries like you said to get back into Greek for a long time, and for laypeople like me like after I started to dive into mounts and stuff and get the very basics. I just know when at a time and you know it's hard to really dive deep into not actually in a seminary program.

Having someone instruct you. So yeah, I'm really excited as he was told.

Also the future so you really really appreciate everything you do and so it's good to get into the article. So from what I understand the basic kind of goal of the article is to just talk about well as the title says Dylan is a Mormon exaltation subtenant describing difference different issues that I think Mormons will have to wrestle with in terms of their view of eternal progression and how man can become God agreed we can become gods and how we are the same ontologically terms of who we are in terms of being aware of the same being as God were just at different levels progression so I would you agree that it would you have more calmest is generally about the article guy just someone who is new to this Mormonism has this Lorenzo Snow couplet which says as many as God once was, as God's man may be in the general.

The dominant approach to that is to say that God's past as a pattern for our future that there's something patterned in the generations of the gods.

There's a repeated repeatable cycle and even the purpose of life is to continue repeating this cycle and help others participate in the system but when people start thinking through this you know it it bothers the conscience and so people come up against brick walls and contradictions, because while I mean sex part of the problem. I think this is a good problem is a lot Latter Day Saints I think are in denial about how much classic theism there wanting to hold onto still bait the company, want to hold onto some vestiges of historic Christian approaches to God the on the omnis know they want the language they they want the big the bigness of God and so look the kind of reach for that language and reach for the ideas initially and then it gets deconstructed by their own theology so as part it's that part of its that Mormonism has an and this is so huge that people understand Mormonism historically has very different models for approaching exultation in the cosmos and through the system of of God's, and exultation. There's very different approaches to eternal progression to what what in intelligences. What a spirit body is and how those come about and anything Latter Day Saints even realize that you often may have a view and it's in contradiction to the views of other prophets and apostles within her own church for other members, and so part of the dilemmas and contradictions that come about our owing to the fact that sometimes people are Picking from one view or another nightly consistently picking a view and it is even contradictions within the views so this is my attempt at really getting to people to think theologically of a mess. This is just like what to think of how to think it should be even pursue these lines that should be just the right hands of finance Alex deep it's difficult that is not is not relevant to my salvation, or should should be. As a matter of worshipful contemplation and devotion.

Think about the greatness of God, and really push that is as far as me. We can put into God's revelation and according to the mind that is given us, shrieking love God with all of our mind by thinking these things out reasonably. I suggest in it and I hope is that people would see how ridiculous it is to choose anything other than the great most high self existent, simple, most high, so that again most high God and is going on yes can say I liked a lot of what he said there and a lot of those questions Artie had in my mind.

You know there's going to be a lot of people say well this is just theological navelgazing.

You know what is it really matter, you know, if you take one view or another and also why does it positively affect our worship must have something up all that up in our conversation with Jeff Washburn before and so you can Artie just admitted that it does have effects.

It does affect know our salvation in our relationship with God, not just knowing God itself typically are we actually in Christ. If we embrace different views of God that are just antithetical to the teaching of Scripture. And when you have leaks that are antithetical to these teachings then that affects your worshiping on affect how you envision God how we worship God and relate to God's was there anything you'd like to do about that before going to the specific dilemmas. Cognitive status at lunch today after church with my three kids were memorizing rock of ages, cleft for me and I did a little exposition of the first stanza to my kids and explained why the hymn writer said rock and of ages and cleft for me and we talked about how God as Brock is referring to his stable, consistent, unchangeable, completely independent being doesn't have mood swings. He's not going to digress is not going to regress. He's not going to improve is completely reliable as the Old Testament says no because easy heat heat because he is who he is and the eternal past week and we can depend on him going forward in the future and is not just the rock is a rock of ages he's over time is he's responsible for time. There's no there's no prior season of where he wasn't the rock. There's no no theoretical out there season where he was malleable in improving his morality and yet not yet at obtaining perfection.

And so for the writer to say rock of ages, cleft cleaver separator pierced, you crucified for me rock of ages proves it's relief it's bringing together this beauty of the most high, omnipotent, invisible God becoming a little tiny suffering finite baby and he dies on it, it dies, the God of life to God that has life in himself assumes humanity and then dies. And there's something view business does.

Nope, no Marvel superhero story that even comes close to the beauty and the, the inimitable beauty of the redemptive history what God has chosen to do to reveal himself. So if you are if you were to deacon if you were to tell me that God well, it got actually used to be, not yet God and that he became who he is and images destroy the hymn for me. I would either have to sing it out of a poor conscience a broken conscience of active would have to just rip out the meaning of the words and I would and if it would it would do is it would destroy Christian worship. They would got to be just absolutely devastate the hearts of Christians, if stated, if for some reason we found out that God was not truly the rock of ages, so it it affects my worship absolutely affects the music and the emotions in the prayer and the devotion and info Latter Day Saints to think well this is just you know it's not relevant to my salvation.

This is my relevant this is relevant to my life. This is relevant to my existence. This is why I'm here is to know this great God and am sermonizing knots beautiful. I really appreciate that. I don't think I had actually thought about those words deeply.

But yeah, that's great. It's as a latter-day St., we thought it was an advantage recited as an advantage that we worship to God. That was very similar to us and then starting to question that data leave district 1 of the God is not like us in almost every way imaginable is kind of scary. But the same time it opens your mind is like had such a small you like laser focused view of who God is the right Scott is so expansive he's not changing and he is reliable and he's always going to be the same God, and it makes the really grateful that we are not like God because humans are broken. Humans were just not reliable.

Seven.

Change motions all the time.

God doesn't. That's why we have such a wonderful yeah exactly yeah right and the and that is just this is amazing to talk about thing, but that some really grateful that you want to deep dive more deeply to these dilemmas as to why we think Latter Day Saints really think about this and think about why having a changeable God or that we can become God's justice he is why that can be why that will effects your worship, your your understanding your faith and why ultimately why we can't really open hand of fellowship to our Latter Day Saints friends as fellow brothers in Christ we see these things as as something that divides us in terms of the faith deal breakers right exactly.

So let's let's go to the first section in your article so if you like we could just read each one out and then talk about it.

So would you like to be that person. I would join you verbalize it or he actually discovered it, but if I don't cover it, and please maybe interject the first one concerns subordination independence without actually stood out not to two different dilemmas just for clarity, but this is simply that if we in our exultation as gods in the Mormon system remain subordinate by support amine positioning ourselves as a relational inferior to superior. If we do that, then it stands to reason given the Lorenzo Snow couplet coupling of the past and future, that heavenly father is still relationally subordinating himself as a relational inferior to heavenly grandfather.

I know from solidity St. I just can't believe you just said, heavenly grandfather well I I I I I don't like using euphemisms I don't like.

I like these crispy critters can but so that the dilemma here is this.

I think Latter Day Saints is a carryover from historic Christian doctrine and sort of like the echoes of the Christian conscience have largely since been abandoned, but there still echoes their victor we know in our conscience that God doesn't like he doesn't bend the knee to heavenly father is been the need to hire God himself and we know that if we become God's. I mean that's blasphemous and that's a terrible premise to operate off of, but even if we did know in the NLD is thinking a lot of that they will surely we would still been the need our heavenly father we what we wouldn't like graduate from bending the knee to heavenly father we wouldn't stop submitting and subordinating ourselves as relational inferior's we would still been the knee so the problem here is, it wouldn't let anything try to correct this and it's okay will need to begin fix this. Maybe.

Maybe heavenly father doesn't been the need heavenly grandfather while at the neck case you have to be consistent. Be symmetric and say well well when we become God's. We will graduate from bending the knee from our heavenly father. In other words, if we want to heavenly father is not subordinate is for heavenly grandfather than were not going to be supported and we become God's so another Latter Day Saints solution is this to say well walking a solution, but it can insistence is to say who will always be supported. Heavenly father and of the new have to say.

Heavenly father is always supported heavenly grandfather and probably repeating myself, but it it if you can repeat. You can sort of copy that dilemma with dependence so I think we know that everything we have is from God and we are dependent on him and it's not as though I grow independent of God is not as though I become like a source of goodness that's not downstream from God. It's all owing to God. So I'm really in heaven I'm growing more aware of my dependence on God. And I think a lot of what you Latter Day Saints want to still affirm that yet.

We will always be dependent on God will then you have to extrapolate that backward Emelia system to heavily heavenly father is dependent on heavenly grandfather and then you have a similar problem when they try to fix one side of the other, thoughts or comments on that day did I and I love the way that you can account this article in terms of new dilemmas for Mormon theology, but then how that how there's interplay therewith with a lady Christian conscience within the latter-day St. mind. I love that your kind as I think about this first section of subordination and I think a lot of times the reason that Latter Day Saints will kinda go to that subordination place to try to explain the technology is because there's this this difference right between Latter Day Saints theology, and in that kind of a plurality of gods and the classic Christian view that there is one eternally existent.

Internally, self existent, supreme being right and we call God and Latter Day Saints try to come to get out of that dilemma by by of of recognizing I guess in the conscience that will lose if we say those employed plurality of gods than in why don't we worship these other gods right and so that's why they go to the subordination place and it's interesting so what did you think Esther even that didn't. That's why they go there in their minds.

Erin, the latent Christian conscience yeah yeah and attended attempts to kind of get out from under the dilemma of of what we we we have a plurality of gods but we only worship one God so we can remain monotheistic. If we say no to the subordination place right yeah that's kind licorice short and fix maybe yeah yeah so these three dilemmas are written out on this article. It's for the preview I written out. I think 26 of them and it's just a matter of can I synthesize, categorize, and then flush them out yet is other dilemmas that are popping up really quickly when you start saying things like, well, God's not worthy of worship because of what he's like he's he's worthy worship because he's our particular deity that got the idea goes well I'll use my crystal clear language or he's our cosmic regional patriarch. He's our local he's our local deities are cosmic local regional deity for his particular domain in his particular generation of the gods and so and I'm asked a lot Latter Day Saints.

If you found out that heavenly grandfather had mourned glory more knowledge or power which you worship.

Heavenly grandfather.

Instead of worshiping heavenly father and the answer almost always is no because heavenly father is my God. And so the application of that is not, is there not worshiping God because he is supremely omnipotent, and supremely omniscient Christians worship God because he is supremely perfect most high perfect in the latter-day St.'s lease. The dominant system is its fleshed out can never really stereotype an individual Latter Day Saints. Sometimes we find out that they don't agree with Latter Day Saints traditions, but asserted that the dominant system is that is that were not really worshiping God because he is the most high is not is not the source of everything good, true and beautiful for all is just the dates for the immediate conduit what's good and true beautiful for me. He's downstream of mother deities and I'm quite thankful that he was through the mediating conduits of of what's good and that in the larger cosmos on my behalf that he had that that the just provokes so many of the problems we can talk about that guy get a mention one other thing that should help. This will be helpful for a lot of Latter Day Saints. Hopefully there's different models of exultation among Mormon thinkers. One, you might say is the brig might view in its Brigham's notion that all the gods are always progressing in all of their attributes in the old only all alternative is to progression is his digression and so he didn't think that the gods were stagnant in any of their attributes, especially knowledge and power, whereas other folks like Orson Pratt.

As I understand it, and at least you know folks that came following young others who had formulated like Bruce McConkey would be a good modern example he thought it was heresy to think that God himself was progressing in knowledge. So this other view of progression, the gods, when they are exalted, they max out in their omnis and their knowledge and power, and they no longer progress in their in my: internal attributes, but they continue to progress in their external glory. Either the eternal increase and I don't mean this merely to be cheeky but it's just a really helpful analogy in that model the glory of the gods is sort of like an MLM where it's a pyramid scheme or MLM, where you get glory out of your children getting glory, and so forth and so it's not really speaking to, and of the infinite internal glory you have. It's really sort of an additive glory is not reflecting of something is not reflective of something infinite. It's additive so the other two models of progression where God is actually progressing in himself or God is progressing no longer in himself.

This progressing outside of himself to serve what his domains are has more clout among the gods if you will officiate his Mark.

MLM representation of the generations of the gods anyway. So think about those different models you know when you think about this dilemmas. Yes, that that's exactly what I was thinking of what I have traditionally heard of you that God is growing more dominion and scope and power and as all the more of his children become exalted, you know.

And Moses Latter Day Saints have a book of Scripture called the book of Moses, and one most famous passages is chapter 1 verse 39 recess for behold this is my work, my glory bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. So when more Latter Day Saints are exalted or are people in other planets and other universes are exalted, the God that brought them to that exaltation grows glorious and about how I saw a lot of rather than God actually change themselves and actually known very rare circumstances of LDS. The belief that there is no God above godfather. So God the father is the ultimate God, so that kind of solves that issue. But that kind of men admit that that's not the historical yes understandings like you said somebody is just diverge from their tradition entirely to kind of solve the problem so yeah there's there's a lot of things that this really need to understand.

Think about and in our inner conversation which actions are to go back to it because he just had it that is irrelevant.

He he said that, you know, if you look into the timeline. The LDS profit right now is approximately or almost exactly half the age of the church itself, so the church really has not been around a long and he says in terms of timeline. They haven't even reached the beginning of their church to what we would say from the beginning of the Christian church to the Council of Nicaea is he saying that you know that it's not correct for non-LDS to ask LDS. These types of questions because even they haven't quite figured it all out and but but to me it's a much different situation because we have the Internet information passes so much more rapidly now they claim to still have profits that you just ask God questions and answers to keep it just still have conduits Revelation is to answer these questions immediately whereas I Christians historically have had to wrestle a Scripture understanding totally in the tradition of the faith. So it's not and I didn't really find attitudes target I'd have time to really push them on that or talk about that. Unfortunately it's really interesting for Latter Day Saints to say they've only had say every what it is now hundred 8070 something years because with that implies is that they don't have 2000 years so that the breaking continuity favors for Christians, we are acknowledging that God has had his pillar and buttress of the truth on the earth for 2000 years God has been equipping by the Holy Spirit is people for 2000 years.

Through the development of historical theology and combating heresies and revisiting God's word and Reformation. He had that the Holy Spirit has been very active in the church for 2000 years.

So for Christians, we don't want to become historically ignorant of the historical of development. It's not it's not a faith breaker for us to learn that it took time for Christians to come. Sort things out and and and develop ideas and crystallized in debate you think that things like that but you know, one of the things that you really don't see really promulgated within Mormonism is a really healthy historical theology by the site back up a bit for Christians. There's three different. You could say they're different ways. We want to theology. We want them altogether. One is we want to do exegesis. We want to look at the text and we want to know if the authors met and you not eat as a zoom out and zoom in aspect of that we would want to know with the immediate text is saying, in context, and we want to zoom out and we want to see what God is the common author of all Scripture is doing as a singular author waits for the threads of the themes are things that God is been up to draw the 66 books absolutely has biblical theology exposition exegesis hermeneutics.

We want to be textual. We want to be tethered to the text. The second category you might call historical theology. We want to trace the development of thought and we don't want to pretend like we are downstream from that, or that were not building on the stimulus shoulders of others, of building on the work of others. Instead, we wanted to utilize the thinking of other Christians were thinking about Scripture and think clearly about the categories in the debates and in doing so that'll help us more clearly. Think about Scripture because Christians have been thinking very deeply about Scripture for 2000 years and if I try to go rogue or lone Lone Ranger on that and I just become arrogant night I asked.

I like re-creating heresies or like reinventing the wheel, or I in that thinking is clearly 1/3 category systematics is really really connecting the dots and that you're just taking it your zooming out and you're looking at the big ideas and your thinking harmoniously and systematically about the whole soap Mormonism has taxed and is very disjointed, though it's not in the conversation and they haven't they have a systematic theology of Dave Dave often said will were proud not to have us a snack theology dog creeds. Well, you more or less have appeals to my gospel principles reflecting an overall general system with a generally coherent system he could poke holes in it, but Accu has us as a superficial hold say is this a generally coherent idea of what the world with reality is like breaks down when you press it out to the implications, but it's a generally coherent worldview. Mormons are taught assist in the title way of thinking about things.

The problem is that when Mormons studied her theology there really not given exposure to the historical development of how the thinking expanded and developed within their own tribes so II would import my Latter Day Saints neighbors Teresa Dingley. This is my doctrine.

The development of Mormon theology by Charles Harel he's up.

He was a professor at BYU. There have been other efforts at something along these lines, like material givens but more it's more or less devastating for Mormons to historical theology because they start realizing that the prophets and apostles ended up taking positions that denounced as heresy, the positions of prior prompt process apostles and prophets, and you start learning about the streams of thought within Mormonism say about exultation in the cosmos, and he certainly is nurse camps is literally the categories of different ways of thinking within the state within the tradition of Mormonism and and and the reason what. One reason why this is devastating is that there's this common sense of your Protestants out there. Y'all are crazy because you have diversity of thought on theology and you have different camps. The Arminianism Calvinism and give different variations of theology of different systematic theologies of different denominations. We don't have that problem. Mormonism is like yeah we got things figured out. We have a standard curriculum with that correlation we got prophets and apostles to prevent us from having the kind of problem. The Protestants have really it's just it's just there, but it's not really known and so something some of what I'm doing here is an uncut exposing Latter Day Saints to a variety of positions they have within their own religious. That's great, thank you so much fire and yet it's that was something that I really struggled with is the historical development of LDS theology and why it just seems like it seems he can take one profit at any moment in time compared to another puppet says and let you know it's hard to find a lot of agreement on on these particular issues, and it seems like what you're saying. Like with correlated materiality best counter solution was a okay all of these disagreements are kind of on these like nitpicky, you know." My minor issues so it's Flatten it out and just talk about the main issues okay. Jesus is the son of God you know and I can really talk about that means in superblock depth was looted that, but anytime you need to go to any kind of depth on these issues.

It forces you to ask these kind of questions to go deeper to understand what is it actually mean to be God was next to the man and I think is also the issue is a common objection that whatever we bring up as an official doctrine and the solution that's proposed is for us to minimize our our articulation of LDS doctrine to that which is the recently emphasized subset of the standard works expressed in general conference is not just the standard works. It's an interest is different. There is no official doctrine on what constitutes official doctrine is no binding an official position of what constitutes a binding and official position. So there's like minimalist and maximalist approaches to LDS theology. The most minute limit one minimum minimalist version is you're only allowed to critique the claims of Mormonism that you can find attested in its standard works and repeated general conference recently is not everything that canonical is official doctrine that everything in general conference official doctrine. Not everything in Finucane and Angela conferences official docket is just it, mess it up, and he talked to so my my proposed counter solution is this. I'm not trying to misrepresent the Latter Day Saints people as individuals. I would rather give a holistic view of the Latter Day Saints faith by making note of what the canon originally said as they diverted a very diapered from it and making note of the historical developments that like how Latter Day Saints have thought about this particular issue throughout the no beers and then sort of what is the sort of a generally coherent gospel principles idea today and what are through the cultural streams of thought. You can find if you look hard enough within the Mormon people so I put that all together and I represented I is that at that it can I do that is that a target that I won't be your best. That official will you know just this because nonofficial doesn't mean Mormons are teaching it to the kids. Yeah it's it's why I wrote an article that's on effort. Anson's website is called the chameleon gospel and it's like an ivory Latter Day Saints you talk to the got their own view of how things work. Who God is, with the with salvation is not quite so difficult for us to witness to them because even if you quote no official sources that will asked how I see it or that's not official etc. etc. and it's very relevant to this discussion because like you said you for this first limit you product subordination is God the father supported to his father God, some will just know solid by just saying why don't believe the key for discourse is authoritative or they just reinterpreted the knives started diverge so much from the dilemmas. Maybe we should not run around on the 90 it's good it's good I think it's totally relevant apology only comments about this dilemma, maybe not about the dilemma but just kind of a cap on the conversation of just blowing his objects and kind of alluded to it tonight and like Ostler, someone who kind of promotes this idea as well with the Mormonism is that that it's a benefit for Mormons that there isn't an official position as you are saying and admit that they have this freedom of thought I was reading one of Blake officers articles and dialogue. But you showed to me this morning and he mixed the statement and phrasing, of course, but essentially that Mormon thought is is is mind expanding, rather than mind limiting right which he can abuse classic Christian theology of my limited because you can't just know. Imagine what you want to be true, I suppose, but that the real dilemma is that that there is truth. If there's no absolute truth and there is no absolute reality that we can understand and grasp us as human beings are distinct people so I don't start on the start. I see that you and especially the former Latter Day Saints as it is a benefit that that there's just no solid ground that we can we can stand on theologically fabulous Qubec to the dilemmas and lots of great points listening to. However, in this contest going to walk with Jesus. This is really a national role born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in order to more commonly referred to as all of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ as our podcast this next John, 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without. This is to share our journeys of faith God has done in joining us to his son.

Stations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, noise, and everything in between.

Glad you found this histogram want to.

Second, so expanding Godhead versus overlap so and rejected can explain what that dilemma is an initial guide. If Jesus in the Mormon system moves on guilty feet.

If he becomes a heavenly father's spirit father of his own spirit kids say him and his wife are wives.

They beget spirit of spirit babies the spilt spirit children and they populate their own worlds govern and he governs his own worlds and is functioning as a heavenly father know in Brigham's view, there's a cycle here were in every cycle. There's a heavenly father is a son there's a Satan. Also, this model is repeatable model Jesus is functioning as a heavenly father and he is sending his own firstborn son would've that supposed to mean in that model some ticket chronologically summed up, so it stands to reason here that there is there's either a new Godhead where he's the father and is sending his son, or else I'll shelf the order there, but skip out for second if Jesus is a heavenly father for second Godhead.

That means that he either exited the other Godhead. Either he's he's he's he's graduating or exiting is Godhead or he's a dual member of two Godhead's, so in this case you have an overlapping set of Godhead's will that that raises more questions because a lot of Latter Day Saints will say that the unity of the three persons in our part in the particular Godhead over this planet. The unity is a unity of purpose. So you really asked if you got two Godhead's work at many Godhead throughout the mobile Mormon multi-verse that it if if all the Godhead essentially have the same purpose and why are they one big Godhead.

If there a multiplicity of Godhead's then you've got multiple perfect purposes that ultimately you got multiple purposes, one for each Godhead.

If you got someone who belongs to multiple Godhead. He's got to purposes that overlap and so you also, Mormons will respond to me and say well there's no conflict of interest between deal membership of many Godhead's management is take a step back and say what would Martin say we believe in one God, and they define that as Godhead don't Christians often say will actually elsewhere. You agree that you believe in the existence of multiple gods of the same type of being is God beings will not. Not only that it Latter Day Saints. At least in this model. Here are not only affirming the multiplicity of divine beings in the in the highest sense that they can offer there there in this set.

In this model, positing the existence of many Godhead's countless Godhead's not the other model is not heard this before, is that when gods are exulted is is God's. They join the existing Godhead and that there is one giant Godhead with an indefinite number of gods and that the Godhead as its rep are presented to this generation of the gods is really adjustment is like a subset or sample or like representative sample of the larger Godhead, so the three father son and Spirit really know they belong to a Godhead with a whole lot many more divine beings and they all share the same purpose. So I really early if if Mormons want to use a John 17 to argue that were going to join the Godhead know if were going to form new Godhead.

They've got a deal with these issues is not a problem for Christians because we've got the Trinity. We got a most high God. Any thoughts or comments on the fence that for sure as I was reading through the section of the article earlier today, struck me that the one I like we've done here and in laying out these dilemmas, especially as it relates to the way Latter Day Saints walked off the couch things in terms of both the oneness of the Godhead is his purpose was struck me as the Latter Day Saints will often kind of lampooning the Christian view of heaven is only you just believe you're going to float around on Harbison or Fuller on Clausen by hearts all day praising God right for all eternity and what kind of a kind of eternity is the applicant of heaven is not in the video. The implication is that you just doing the same thing over and over again so how is that enjoyable right from the Latter Day Saints perspective, but with what you cannot point out here is that they run into kind of a similar dilemma if they if they run out their own thinking to its logical conclusion because of note to get away from the dilemma of potential competing purposes among multiple Godhead's then they would have to say that you know is is Matthew quoted from my book of Abraham earlier. I believe the this my work and my glory to bring to pass the eternal life, immortality and eternal life map. If that's the sole purpose right for for eternity then and for all of gods on the Mormon view than the mayor also doing the same thing over and over again and then when you get into the materialistic asked aspect of of Mormonism you know LDS feminists kind of recognize this a while ago when they have said they don't want to be barefoot and pregnant for all eternity.

Right they recognize that there is a similar and if you want color stagnation. When you want to call it within the LDS thought if you're going to avoid the dilemma of competing purposes.

So that's kind of my thoughts on on the section of the article. It reminded me to of conversations I've had with Latter Day Saints because he can point out sections in the Old Testament. You know the messianic song which it pulled them up high enough is it's it's the one not aware I know it's actually nice day I think is and in chapter 60 says that Jesus gets up in the Senate on the ending coats at nicest status is fulfilled in your unit in your hearing and ice is like the spirit of the Lord is upon me that I must messianic Psalm. I love that water that messianic passage hello that because you see you nice the heads of the three members of the Trinity say we see the Messiah speaking first-person speaking of the spirit of the Lord is upon me speaking spirit in you know and you see God you know Yahweh is spoken there cc instant shadows of number three members of the Trinity. And so I ask it Latter Day Saints okay we see we can show where the father is called Yahweh or Jehovah, the easier the sun is called Yahweh or Jehovah.

And you know in a notice will essential see the spirit of Yahweh speaking of the Holy Spirit, and so if they're united in purpose and you know there each three gods in the Godhead you know and you hope to become a God does that mean you hope to become or be called Yahweh or Jehovah you know because some of them speak of Yahweh or Jehovah's title or an exalted status so are all these gods called Yahweh or Jehovah you know some would say yes on some said no somewhat hesitant to respond in on some, but to me, like LDS thought. Traditionally Jehovah was specifically speaking of Jesus. Now that's that's kind of what's been believed, at least since the 20 century at a desk and were codified in that time. But but when you have this expanding, either in expanding our multiple Godhead's yeah are are they all Jehovah is just this is Godhead is Jehovah and the onset different teams that Blaise makes me think right now it is to find if I'm supposed to worship the father for all of who he is and if my heavenly father is also a son, a deal member of another Godhead in which he is the son right ought not then I also worship the father for being a son like that make sense like that.

It it it it in my supposed to block out from my head. Ideas and facts and truth about God and only worship part of him.

Does he have kind of a double life that I'm not supposed to know about and am not supposed to know.

So it really excites raising the question of both Jesus becomes a heavenly father over a different set of worlds in my not supposed to esteem him and adore him for being a heavenly father and and so he might not be my heavenly father, but he is a heavenly father and suddenly hear him worshiping my heavenly father and in the sun as a heavenly father. So it it said on that than I totally hear that and then you write as if there's if there's not a kind of is he saying in the section that there is only one purpose suitable for any Godhead. If there's not one purpose then been you do run the risk of of running into the dilemma that you cannot point out in your first section, which is that it would what what would you do if you were to find out that your heavenly grandfather was was greater in dominion and power and attributes been then the heavenly father you know and worship.

Would you be done.

No compelled or or or or wish to worship that other deity, so that that's a major problem in and denied unconsciously struck by the diverse and the in the hymn amazing Grace hear the talks about praising God forever minimum only been there 10,000 years by shining as the sun, we've no less days to sting God's praise than when we first began in that's that's because of who God is, as you were kind of pointing out, as we start out tonight. Erin and I don't think Latter Day Saints can kinda get to that. That feeling of of of of joy that I that I have been anticipating worshiping God forever and ever write fireflies. That's it for this week will be back next week.

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