Having Effective Family Conversations, Pt. 1

Your answering and and and fireflies will conduct brightness this week we have the extreme pleasure of being flies on the wall for a conversation between Michael Flournoy, Michael BX pharmacologist and his brother David, our initial plan was to have Michael, the elder X more apologist debate Michael younger using old audio, but we figured it'd be better to have Michael engage in a real conversation with a live Latter Day Saints so we brought in his brother David besides Michael younger already lost those previous debates so we didn't want to revisit but David is a latter-day St., and Michael and David have ongoing conversations during their commutes each day where they discussed their beliefs and I think the conversations and I will be a good model for how to show how to have respectful religious dialogue with family members even where there are disagreements so I'm looking forward to being a fly on the wall here. They have come up with a number of topics that they're going to touch on.

It's not a formal debate. I it's more of a conversation, a dialogue, but they are going to spend 10 minutes on their relationship.

I believe that's with each other, correct okay just one mixer wasn't like relationship with Jesus so that his sentiments on relationship with each other 15 minutes discussing the Trinity doctrine versus the obvious Godhead Godhead beliefs and then 10 minutes on apostasy and restoration 15 minutes on priesthood authority.

10 minutes on Revelation, then they're going to hit the main topic of the evening and spend 40 minutes talking about imputation and then finally 20 minutes on what it means to be heirs of God, hope you enjoy this. We think it's a good model of how to have effective interfaith conversations where there is disagreements and still maintain family relationships so happy to bring that aspect of this conversation to you. I hope you enjoy. If you want to hear the rest of the conversation I subscribed to outer brightness on your favorite podcast that so I'm going to step out at this point and just kinda cute time and let them take away so the first topic up is you two discussing your relationship and go alright so I leaving the LDS church management five years now since I walked away and you I was the first person in our family never go and serve a mission solidly first Elder Flournoy went out to Anaheim California in the David was the only other person from our family ended up serving so you following in my footsteps. He also went to California we've always been really close. I think that way since the early ship a lot as well because my brother decided it wanted on the mission. The other brother to go on a mission because of health concerns.

He wasn't okay because it was panic attacks and whatnot so armored when I was okay to go. Michael gave me his name tag is like Rome with his name tag. I have seen miracles a site and give this to you. It was kind of thing like I'm going to go serve Mr. legacy to withhold. We both have merit some very similar experiences while we're so so bonding thing because I want my family. David, you're the only one that shares that experience with me going the whole 9 yards in the church.

I think were to the only ones that I got in the temple as well. I mean there's her sister that and then there's not so clear.

There is already a really good relationship. There I when I decided I was going to to leave the church that I no longer believed in it.

You have a lot of anxiety about talking to family about it because the church isn't just a set of theological beliefs units but also the culture Institute entire lifestyle and you got eternal families tied up in their I was really anxious to talk of a lot of members of the family about it, especially mom and you can imagine I was really impressed by the way. Everybody in the family sort of reacted to it, including you as a member you just saying like, hey I I disagree with you, but I still respect and what is really interesting is nobody else else in the family wants to discuss theology with me. I've had a few make some emotional pleased to me your credit, bear some testimony about member. One particular family member Mike to say who is this is public, but basically said he's not going to get into it to me because I'm when which are Islamic and don't have to be a debate. But I really enjoyed being to talk to you Celine David Lee we talk almost every morning to sleep. Also in the same line of work. That's how unifying we are basically like a clone of me almost lately we have more hair for now. You know I used to brag about my lashes here to just wait. I don't have the discussions on the phone and even theological discussions and talk about things for a long time and obviously he's agreed to come here and talk to me tonight. So David, one of my what am I doing right compared to other people who talk to Latter Day Saints like where we able to have this really think there's a lot that goes into it like one of our first conversations was more along the lines of, like you said I disagree, but I respect you and the other thing was, I think I told you I would've wanted to be there at your back is like even if you left the church. I want just I want to support you. I feel like the real clinic clicking moment for us and our conversation was when we decided that we can have a conversation without debating like hey II want to understand where you're coming from, like, what is your position on this or what what really did make you leave the wind� Having conversations where it wasn't about a brutal beat down where we just had the Bible work turning pages you know here and there.

This is this this is that occasionally we do as a hey what are your thoughts on this Scripture while you know if we tie that into here, but most of the time when were talking were seeking to understand each other and then as we understand each other. We can states understand the mysteries of God been a couple of moments I where it's gotten heated because it's not the topic that were both passionate about, you know, and I know there is at least one time where I was kind of trying to corner you and your bro, I don't like the way you're coming at me and I'm just okay okay you know I just had to take a minute and be like I need to let go of my pride, because it is a pride thing.

I think because you do remember is like it was the point of winning an argument. If it's going to estrange me from my family and keep me from being able to have conversations with you and such like, you know, I'm sorry that this this told with you and you know it's like you have slept think were able to look past Madden give each other some some mercy some benefit of the doubt. And I think that's why it's a healthy relationship you first omitted voter we can jump into the next topic and just go out for a little while if you want to. So let me just adjust the time I hear a quick hug of the next 12 minutes some additional time are so far/next topic there to discuss his Trinity versus Godhead, and before we jump in that role quickly just say that was interesting to listen to you talk you both talk about your relationship and and what works and what hasn't worked in David. I thought was really interesting when you pointed out that that there was like a clicking point where where things shifted in your in your ability to have conversation and then what was behind that was just the decision to have it not be a debate but a conversation really trying to understand each other.

I think that's really important thing to do when asking the state real quick and I just didn't think of until right now but really deep meaningful substations.

I think that their reasoning and some shifts in your theological position over time. I mean, I don't think you knew what imputation was before we started talking some wondering if you can remember there being a point where you get a lot of numbers of the church don't want to listen to a single thing that a person leaves sandstone. You remember that point in our relationship where your like this guy still has things of value to say hello so I think one of the things that meant the most to me when I was talking with Michael is I I actually really love doing public speaking talks like new and talking churches are coming something that's one of my favorite things. We obviously probably a little bit more. My right now we have a topic audience and I feel like talking to a crowd. You now have the ability to receive revelation from God.

If you are now in charge of his fold mean you not to say this person is a sinner but maybe know how to type get guidance to say specific thing is going to really touch somebody start like it's a sacred responsibility to build give talking church so you will never see a black all installed call and I avoid it like this all anyways passing that I had accepted a call to give a talk at church and I was told Michael, and I was hesitant because it was about the restorations I was hesitant to talk with Michael because I knew he did not believe this, and he was like a pro I was in Osborne mission leader. I was a member of the church like go ahead and tell me I am all ears. I want to hear what you had to say and I can give you some pointers. And so I ended up sounding pretty much my entire outline for the talking. What I want to say that he gave me some real honest feedback in it. It improves my taught and it that was one of those clicking points are. As I came you know we are teaching each other me maybe were not converting each other but we are teaching each other and there is value to be had in conversations, even if he's not a member of the church. Okay you actually didn't.

I didn't remember that what I do remember saying you kind of recently is like look, I don't care about being right or being wrong like to me.

The truth is ultimately what matters and if if by some chance the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is true. I don't think it is.

But if it is true what I want to know what I want you to have the best argument possible so that you can convince me that that's true but if it's not true that I want to be on the share information with you as well and ultimately what I want is for us to be on the same side at some point so what are the things real quick and I know we do need gives the next topic, but I remember relatively soon after you left. It must've been probably about, probably after year. I don't sweettalk religion for the first like we talked about it, but we did actually discuss it for probably a year or so and I remember having this conversation were I started telling you about some my spiritual experiences with God and how for me that was a testimony that the church was true and you had said bro. But why didn't you tell me about this, like, what, why didn't you try to, you know, not converted, why didn't you share these things with me while I was struggling with the faith like nobody in the family reached out with Mia and tried to share things, nothing that would've stop you from going because you had a really solid doctrinal reason for you that you wanted to leave but that became a point where your like I I want you to share things with me. I want you to try and goes lives with what you're just now saying that the truth is the most important things you think you time you what I want you to tell me what your thoughts are what your arguments are like that. That meant a lot to me as well.

Yeah.this whole thing is totally informal so I'm going to help you like this whole like kind outline that I gave him and now really like to throw that the trash like the word spelling is a totally fluid conversation from the note note though, I'm still the moderator Michael no points now. Good losing the debate on down two points but anyways as I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted only � what was I saying David was only a daily said that I had these like theological reasons for leaving and that's true. But I also had spiritual reasons for leaving because I believe I would get into this later if you want to, but not on the is on our topic list by not I thought I was having spiritual conversion out of the church and into Christ only, and so it is interesting for me to hear you tell me your your spiritual experiences, but it is one of the things I like.

I don't think a spiritual experience can outweigh somebody else's spiritual experience and something it just ends in a stalemate and so were left with is Scripture and logic and reasoning. And so I do enjoy talking about that with you and just grateful to build to do that and have you here on out of brightness to talk to me today. Exciting stuff. Alright, so the Trinity verse of the Godhead, so this has been a fine topic because for Latter Day Saints and anyone that may long. I'm here on his muscular blessed church that are kind find Christ so leave mostly audience knows what it is but for us the Godhead is that I was the father uses the son. The Holy Ghost is the spirit in their all three separate beings anyways let's can you been in my thoughts and I have always believed that the Trinity was some kind of � fusionists God that was out in the universe somewhere that had no form, but had a form in you know, one of one of my Catholic friends that he was probably 13. At the time, but he explained to me like you Christ. You and that's not the way that it's supposed to be.

But this is the way that I always heard of it, that God can be God the father being God the son God the Holy Ghost and so sympatric it's mold dualism, which I now know that my whole LBS upbringing. I was like how can you believe this is so confusing it doesn't make sense. You know there's so many times were you hear about them being at the same place the same time you know Jesus's baptism.

Just as there are obviously getting baptized. God says deposed my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. In the Holy Ghost. Ascends like a dove is oversight committee hears all three of us Stephen sees Jesus standing in the right hand of God. And there's multiple instances where there's smoke there's different people and you think that intercessory prayer was one that Michael had taught me back when he was LBS that was like who see speaking to like this keep praying to himself of it. So anyways, this was kind of my like it doesn't make sense. And finally, in one of our conversations. Michael was like you know that's not what we believe and I have come to find out that what I always thought was the Trinity was mold dualism. Even evangelical say that it is a false doctrine, but I'd like to hear kind of what I mean I've heard a couple times with the Trinity is like to hear no explain it again if that's okay okay I'll do a really brief explanation to try to use an analogy, and I'm telling you right now. Every single you end up eliciting me say this is cringing so hard right now because there is no analogy that is points. I'm getting probably hear from my own species from anything David is saying okay Trinity. We believe there is only one God. So were monotheists.

Okay I we believe that God is one and being three in persons so God consists of the father the son and the Holy Ghost.

None of them are the others and they all exist simultaneously pay. God is omniscient and omnipresent.

He is in all things just really unite even we throw around my trident. We thought was wrong to try to explain it to you and it never really pans out wishes I was things that the human mind can comprehend one of the ways I heard somebody explain it and I really like this is that we are human beings. That's the kind of being that we are right but your person, your personality is Stephen Flora and my personality is Michael so we are one being, with one personality, but God is one being with three personalities, three personages believe that there three separate studies one being three personalities three personages are at least one person. It's just ill and present that y'all believe has bodies Christ is that Ray right. He was the only one that took physical form. Yeah so I would say that they are separate from each other because they are not each other. Okay, but at the same time they are one in essence, so they are all God. And there's only one God. So it is complicated and it's hard for us to grasp. But that doesn't mean that it's not true, if that makes sense. So I was trying to think of some sort of analogy, and it's not perfect and expand on it a little bit, but he received like those shows where there's one person like they've got different personalities inside of them. Like multiple personality disorder you multiple personality disorder and work with neighbors like you also argues about the last point when we got 100 points. We keep going here. Okay, now imagine that all of those personalities can exist simultaneously because usually it's just one at a time right correct okay so now all all the personalities are there at the same time of their all distinct personalities but then likely human being that has this disorder is confined to that body.

Okay, but since God is omnipresent and fills the expanse of the entire universe.

Those personalities can be external from the body of Christ there all the same be an ex-con of all the needs needed so nevermind now he's on his head and staring at me judgment right now though so a lot of what we believe about the characteristics of God are very similarly believe that Jesus Christ has a physical body resurrected body. But we also believe that God has a physical body. Most Latter Day Saints estates, resurrected body.

I don't know if I would say that it's a resurrected body, but it's a perfected body and of the Holy Ghost is just a spirit of so we do believe that God is confined to his body.

Although he is omniscient, so he's able to know everything in his power and influence is omnipresent, even though he's not as far as Latter Day Saints. I think one of the big good questions that you've asked to attack myself this is wonderful.

I just lots of points is about to give you like some help to so go ahead, not on the line so there is a idea in the church and it has been taught by me from the pulpit but not any time recently. I mean, initially, it was hot from Joseph Smith of King followed this course and it wasn't an official teaching but then it was hot in general conference. No, like 50 years ago and that was the saying that as man is now God once was, as God is now man can become it's okay to give his snide the correct that there is this eternal progression in the infinite line of God's behind an infinite light of God's going in the since the future and that's kind of this ideology and I think that is the ideas that's accepted by most of the church is not necessarily my position and I think this is one of those even evolving perceptions and beliefs that I've had as we had conversations as the biggest argument that you guys have had against that ideology.

I think our basic concept of the Godhead is not too much of the argue is, except that Jesus Christ was created being the son of God, and that's, that's, you y'all don't like that at all in and I get that but I think the other thing that I've heard you guys. Michael specifically Tommy is or who is who is the first God when both drink the same time I was sick landmass.

So you said, who's the first God and I would have to say that it is God the father, which leads me to believe that maybe there isn't an infinite progression backwards that he is God. The first God that ever was. I have rambled on a lot about this. You go ahead and take thoughts and ask me questions. Whatever you so is that why you said that you don't necessarily believe the father is in a resurrected body because for him to have a resurrected body. She would've had to have a mortal experience and you don't think that happened. I don't I don't know I have a really hard time believing it because one of the biggest things that you said that has clicked for me was were talking about Jesus in his infinite atonement and in my mind Godhead had all six children. They had progressed to a certain point they're all coming to earth. You know it in there there sending their learning. The repenting and you had made up the idea told me something along the lines of the Jesus is atonement is still taking care of children that God is currently having like if God was deceased, is God.

He's not changing these can keep having spiritual children and when a spirit, he had a creation of the earth is just now coming or if he just had a spare child you know a thousand years ago is that spirit child coming to earth and if you wasn't there knowing Christ of the atonement so something along the lines of Christ's atonement is truly infinite and it made me think like was if God had to go and was on earth, and how to do atonement, one that atonement not continue on to our generation. Like if that was the case why would we need Jesus taught. I don't know if I completely agree that God had a mortal life like we have had yeah I can relay conversation and I think what I was just saying like, yeah, if if Christ's atonement is infinite, it has to cover you. Assuming that there are different generations of spirit children we would have to cover all of them. Otherwise, it's not infinite it's localized and it is finite because it's just within the boundaries of this generation of God's children, so we just ask you this. Do you believe that heavenly father is married. But do I believe it has to have a spouse in order to have spirit children. That is a tough one because if he always existed, how you know how did he get married so we do believe the exultation for Latter Day Saints is between a married man married woman, and that they can continue to have progression and what we call eternal life, which is to continue having children, and I think the idea and it may not be a correct idea, but the idea is that we are following the exact same pattern as God and that we will be having children that are spirit children and one of the conversations that Michael and I had before he left the church was if a physical is a physical couple would have the children, a child in there both resurrected beings, why would it be a spiritual child and this is really deep and I apologize.

These are just some of the conversations that that we had and so it could be that yes, there is an eternal progression, but is it going to be the exact same like I don't know and I don't think anybody really does know until it happens. Yeah, what other things do is not one of the defenses I've seen for the Trinity is that it says that in the Bible that God is love and love is one of those things that you have to express it for to exist. There has to be somebody for you to love in order for there to be lobster. There had to be another person.

God couldn't of been one person and one being since the dawn of before time existed. There had to be others thereto. This is interesting to think that they could be some goddess that is also eternal believe that God created his spouse as well but this thing then becomes, are there other other other eternal gods out there or did this spouse have no choice but to marry heavenly father because there is nobody else in the cosmos. So I know the time came I go ahead and throw out some basic defenses for the basic LBS believe these are the defense that I've used in the past two similar arguments about there is only one God. God cannot be created and that is basically if there was a progression of God's the LDS position that I've held up until I believe that he was the first zeitgeist think that LDS theology can still hold firm with God the father being the first God. But if there was a progression of God to make it so that God is not a liar when he says there are no other gods before me. We have to take into context what LBS believe that the term God represents and that is that God is our eternal father. So if God was my eternal father, and I'm telling my children, you have no other dad, then that is a true statement is not saying that there aren't any other children out there, or any other dads out there but to my children. I am the only dad so that I know it's not a strong strong argument but for LBS terminology of what God is. It it helps me cope with it. The other ideologies is I know people get really upset with the idea that Christ was created so the this deep doctrine is that we all have an intelligence with us and that that intelligence is what all matters created. There is greater intelligence as less intelligences, the greater intelligence is what becomes living beings less intelligences or things to be acted on like a rock or grass sort of thing, but that those intelligences have existed eternally and so that that is our little IM that is put into our spiritual body. When God creates servant when he treats her form is spirit child that we existed before and I know that that doesn't fit the bill completely with evangelicalism, but that is how LBS perceived that yes, your screen is a spiritual child and he's progressed, but he is always existed, but the argument from evangelicals is that he didn't always exist as God.

Even though he had that God particle exam. Anyways, that's my basic defense to mainstream LBS belief that okay I have to just like talk about that room briefly to see if my sign on that date, but you know there's a point in the New Testament. You'll recall this where I Jesus is resurrected and he appears to the apostles and specifically to doubting Thomas who sees the nail prints in his hands and then says my Lord and my God. And we don't have Christ correcting him, so coming to me it seemed like it. It would be inappropriate to call your brother my father and me for using your analogy there and then going into the spirit children, I guess, just think I don't wondered what my argument would be there it would be that you were saying Jesus is an eternal being, and that he was existed as God your even if he sort of had that element is an intelligence as an intelligence.

He was not free to create worlds and to sit on the right hand of the father and he could even form himself. None of us informed ourselves we were formed by by donning in theology, and so to me. I don't think that that is something that you can call a God agree with that. So from what I understand the being a member of the church for 30 years, give or take. Is it sent me a while because I remember as a kid saying goodbye prey to lenders like our friend. Heavenly father were not praying to Jesus so LDS official position is that God is God the father he he is God and the other ones are members of the Godhead, but I don't think until I don't know at what point they became considered gods, but that God we we worship heavenly father Jesus Christ is all glory goes to the father of two heavenly father is God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost did all week. They weren't always God as far as I can tell and lambasting theology that they became part of the Godhead and with that, then have all the rights and powers of God to be able to create worlds to testify exist spirit to spirit sort of thing, omissions, all the above I think that that's the only way that it would make sense in the LDS theology is that God is God and the other two are separate beings that rose to the Godhead and they rose to the Godhead prior to receiving physical bodies correct this evening. In the book of Mormon in reference to Jesus. They called in God even though he was just a spirit. I think being in the Godhead qualifies the as God even if they don't have a perfected body or have children of their own. So is there any reason, just as last thing will move on to the next topic really a lot unexplored.

I apologize anybody listening but we do have a lot of topics to cover here. This is not happen as we were driving to meet at the Stanley going as well yeah and we end up like you pick it up in the conversation. The next day. Is there any reason that that in LDS theology URI could have done the same thing without coming to earth and without. There we without going through the tone process may becoming like a member of the Godhead sort of thing yet becoming gods if they can ascend the Godhead as children of God out of the same intelligence that were made out of then what can we do it in. Technically, we do believe that we can be the ultimate goal for Latter Day Saints. None the salience to replace him for bed, but to be like heavenly father we that's for us.

That's the whole purpose of life is worth following price we can become more and more like God and eventually have a perfected resurrected body like him of so I know there's a lot said talk about with the book of Abraham as far as authenticity and stuff and already had that debate on the show. I am not well versed in it, but the the doctrine that is priest there is that there were other spirits that had become. I want to stay God with the G but God with the g where they did have power maybe you're being taught by heavenly father for eons of time of at some point yeah your dinner know how to create worlds in the maybe you don't have the authority to do it but you know how to do it inside.

It gives a lot more sway when you start thinking about LDS position of Satan leading away 1/3 of the host of heaven, that there are people that are not in the Godhead, but certainly have no sons of the morning or whatever the title might be of and they're getting Saul Hager to go to earth. Forget everything you walk by faith I maybe they're a little scared. And so it if there were people that had obtained near that level obviously not full God could which we would say his exultation every spirit children with a resurrected body but having a higher level of this within normal spirit that it makes sense that people might be scared of losing that power want to side with Lucifer, who was paid or not you have any free will at all and I'm going to make it so that everyone returns.

But the thing with that is, Jesus was not presenting a plan to debate he was presenting heavenly father's plan and stated was an open rebellion so that so anyone that he swayed away was not saying, hey, let's just have a discussion.

They were openly rebelling against God, so God as always, is completely justified in squashing it. Rebellion asked me about, but I don't know if that answered I was alone roundabout answer. I apologize.

I yeah so that's one of the next topic will have time to talk about what was next, apostasy and restoration. The strip I did.

What are your thoughts on that and we obviously believe that there was an apostasy.

I don't believe that there was an apostasy based on what Christ said upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I believe that if there was an apostasy that Christ would've gone against his word to let that happen. That's a good point on so a minute, you're well aware of what most of you stated is that Scripture on that rocket to just add say you that I am he says they are the son of God, and he says blessed art thou, Simon Bertin for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to be but my father which is in heaven unto the I give you the keys of the kingdom that whatsoever, and I'm just quoting. I don't remember it 100% but whatever's was every socio-marshal based on Bevin West. Every so I'll remember exactly but divide Shelby devout divided heaven that he says upon this rock I shall build my foundation so he said Jesus is the Christ you were told this just by seeing me. It was by revelation. My father Kevin has told you it I give you pretty much keep priesthood power and then you know Peter himself, which we would say is the organization of the church of summing we've talked about this before where most Latter Day Saints would say there is for lace to the table he take WAIS-III boom it's gone really Jesus Christ needs to be more important than one leg of the table. He agree that the table is on so I think it's more realistic to say that the church is the three related table that on top of concrete patio of prized if he is the rock of our foundation.

But yeah, I mean we would say all three of those things were lost with the priesthood authority or with the apostles died the revelation to guide the church was gone. Priesthood authority died with them and organization of the church, we would say died with them. I think I Scripture that goes really well with this principle is Matthew chapter 24.

It's kind of one of the end times chapters were just talking to the apostles. I might just pull us up your old bag. Some of this is kind of a us blurred to Latter Day Saints. I'm not a splurge but it where rapid growing lawyer looking for that many just read this passage in Matthew 16 you give you my perspective on her on as a writer is somebody who deals with literature okay from this week from the King James version because I'm such a nice guy so that he 16 starting in verse 15 watches in verse 13. So Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying: do men say that I the son of man am so immediately. The subject in this conversation is Jesus and they say some say that thou art John the Baptist. Some Eliasson others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets, he saith to them but who see that I am, so the subject is still Jesus and Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God. So the subject is still Jesus and Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon bar Jonah for flesh and blood hath not revealed it under the my father which is in heaven. The it being the same subject is everything else right that Jesus is the son of God, so that is still the subject and I stand in the thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, so this rock. What is the subject been all the way up until right now. It's been Jesus upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The next verse is and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. It is an aside, it's a separate subject. At that point.

Moving on, but as long as the rock that the church is built on is Jesus, and there were always people who believed in Jesus that I don't think that that apostasy could have occurred.

Does Wanda throw that out there that's a good I can see that there is a point for you for stirred some only negative for now.

Okay, so there are a lot of scripts that you talk about their being an apostasy.

I think most Christians agree that there either has been an apostasy at some point where there will be an apostasy before the second coming. I thoroughly meditate his job and then Pauline correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I believe there's lots of apostasy going on. I think there's a lot of churches that are just abandoning the word of God.

I think this progresses Christianity out there in just totally twisting it. There's woke Christianity there's what is it called to get rich quick Christianity, but for what it's called prosperity gospel is yeah and I think the dishes. A lot of people just completely gone away from God's word but I don't believe in a complete apostasy to the point that it needs to be completely restored. I believe there are always going to be true followers of God, but as far as an apostasy like yeah I think that a lot of churches out there are facing right now. I like the blue there's been a complete apostasy is even LDS believes that there there was still truth there and obviously we would not have Christianity to be as there was, not just apostasy with priesthood authority organization revelation, but also an apostasy of all doctrine of summing. Thank goodness that there was some doctrine preserved even if there were twisting it at that moment of that. That made it all the way through. Set Christianity could survive, but to us priesthood authority and organization revelation are still big parts of the gospel so where to go from many, just as it is I do want to go back to Nephi 24 delight totally interrupting your train of thought. But it's fine if if a branch came out of your church a new sect of Mormonism. For example, and they just embraced everything the Protestant Christianity already believes in, would you still call them. Yes, I apologize. Posted the question, why did you say something came out of the latter-day state church and they said they did something they believed in all the Protestant beliefs that are already out there, or even the sailing to heaven system completely similar to Catholicism, would you still commonality asked who knew already happened to me.

The church of Christ was a branch of the church. I got into financial problems and get bailed out by believe that Baptist Church somebody had no map had renounced the book of Mormon and so they did and now their digestive as far as I know there just Protestant church now because they liked up pretty much everything that made them a spinoff of Latter Day Saints. So they would not be Latter Day Saints yet so that's why it's a little bit weird for me to hear you saying that you still believe that there was truth out there because it's a completely different is a completely different religion running. I would even ending but I was on the right. I would've said that were basically evangelical class. We believe everything the evangelicals believe and then we have more revelation. That's the only difference, but now that I've crossed over to the side. I don't think that's true at all. I think that we have completely diametrically opposed systems and what it really comes down to, and will get into this later discussion is that we have totally different gospel and so I don't think you can say like a hobo there still truth out there. I think the more the more honestly to go about it is to say that you know Protestant Christianity is just apostate and we got the Trinity and we believe in salvation by buying bricks grace alone through faith alone. And so it is just as he would have it disses really isn't similar at all. It's a completely different thing and and according to your own story when Joe Smith went under the grove of trees to pray, he was told by God that none of them were true, not that some of them have truth or their mistaken in a lot of ways just they're all wrong this time.

Okay, so if you remember the reason that he went into the grove while yes it was fine it was church's to join, but the whole first part of his story was. He was trying to figure out the salvation of his soul, and how to know the state of his soul. So my take on that would be that the terms of salvation were not there and this can gets into were ready to go out later with empty empty imputation of but the whole priesthood authority argument and does it need to be restored really breaks down to what is needed for salvation crate coming.

That's a rumor comes out to because you are right. There are different gospel is for me to say hey they still believed in Jesus Christ.

Yes, that that is truth. They they still believe in Jesus Christ that follows through and he was the son of God, absolutely. That's the truth. They believe some churches believe that hey you need to be baptized. This that church breaks off of me and ultimately the only church that really existing Christianity for a long time was Catholicism and I think pretty much anyone except for Catholicism would go to state that church.

Apostate Ed from what they were supposed to be doing a long time ago from saying that you can prepay sentence to sitting upon the throne and judging as if they were God themselves. I mean Protestants split off from them because they didn't believe that they were correct. So if that was really the only church that came out of Christianity. Then I think we can all say that yes, that had apostate 11.

Would you agree with that.

So this is a perfect segue into our next topic which is I believe priesthood authority yes okay so this is the same argument that I would make is Latter Day Saints is that the only other church out there that has any sort of argument for being the true church is the Catholic Church because they are claiming priesthood authority and claiming that the line was never broken from Peter and so it couldn't possibly be anyone else want to come to understand is not the only church. First of all, that existed there is also the Eastern Orthodox Church that's out there at Coptic Christians.

But the big thing is that you you you said it yourself that Protestants broke off from the Catholic church and so that means is that your Martin Luther didn't go nailed his 95 theses to the Catholic doors and then suddenly when everybody just changed her mind about how they feel about how salvation works on these people were already there and the existed inside of the Catholic Church and they must've existed there because they didn't have huge problems with it wasn't until after the Reformation and the Council of Trent when they said that somebody who believes that salvation comes by grace alone is anathema so that was never stated until afterwards and so I don't believe that the Catholic Church was in apostasy as early as a human would say that the Catholic Church was in apostasy. If that makes sense and in the other big thing is like we have totally different views on priesthood and how that works, and I want to go to couple versus here. This is in their first Peter chapter 2. Please talking to the believers okay to the saints's first Peter second Peter no crazier had it up and then I is first Peter chapter 2.

My mistake, but he's talking to newborn babes in Christ. So starting in verse one. Wherefore, laying aside all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and entities in all English-speaking as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby. So this sounds like pretty new Christians right people who are still still having the milk is as if still believed cases of the Lord is gracious to them coming as into a living stone disallowed in deed of men, but chosen of God and precious, ye also, as lively stones are built up a spiritual house and holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ into that here in verse 92 but ye are a chosen generation of royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light of the priesthood. Here's being associated with newborn babes in the gospel who are still having the Milken in the LDS church, at least I think the priesthood works that way does it while we don't know if this is talking about book as a priest or not. i mean we give the erotic priesthood to 11-year-olds, now 11 turning 12-year-olds, which i would very much consider those to be babes in the gospel. but if if you're okay with me. i'll let you finish your thought and that i don't like to go because we were talking about apostasy, priesthood authority, and it really comes down to terms of salvation, and so the latter day saints theology of what we need to do to be saved is there's five things we gospel us. have faith in the lord jesus christ is first and foremost, nothing else.

none of the other steps mean anything if that isn't there repentance which the word repent does initially mean to repent of every single sin, but it means to turn us up to turn to god, to be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, receive the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of hands and to endure to the end of an part of me in my youth thought endurance. we admit trying to be perfect, but really to me that means enduring in your faith to christ, so don't deny christ pretty much also mean it's not super super challenging, but i am glad that you brought up peter because that peter is one of my favorite people to go to an acceptor to this the day of pentecost, they have this wonderful experience where they're able to now preach and i believe it's like 14 different languages and honestly it's probably not actually the gift of tongues but the gift of interpretation of target people from all these different nations and that all hearing the gospel in their own language causes wonderful outpouring spirit where god is allowing words to be to be preached, but what i wanted to get she was at the end of this chapter what it was if they asked him to do because it to me. it sounds almost exactly like the lds deposition of what we need to do so. the first owner for probably 20 versus here he's teaching about christ letting them know that you guys crucified him.

he is the son of god sort of thing. always so verse 32 jesus god raised up.

wherefore, we are all witnesses right hand of god used exalted so they're all teaching about christ teaches about the atonement they been crucified, both in his both lord and christ. w. verse 37 now when they heard this, they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do then peter sends them repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of jesus christ for the rest of the sentence. remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost and the file at the end that talks about enduring to the end, it does say and they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine anyway so faith, the lord jesus christ, that what we need do repent and be baptized shall receive the gift of the holy ghost of i think if we get into what was needed to be baptized.

go to acceptor a. this is one of the fun ones. so while you're looking at, and i do want to get some thoughts and before you get too many topics because i don't want to forget what i wanted for about two but i want things. not that peter passage that i didn't share with you is that it never and never says anything about the erotic priesthood in that passage or the milk has been priesthood you. that's really an argument from silence to say or let's just talking about the lesser priesthood and not as interested in something you could ever come up with. just by reading the passage instead because you're bringing your your help into it. so there's that lily asked to just say to be a couple times there to be baptized for the remission of sins. and just to throw in the way that that we usually read that his evangelical christians. it's kinda like how you might take tylenol for headache. you know you're taking it because there's already a symptom that you have and so yeah i think baptized for the remission of sins, but i baptizes because i've had that remission of sins not because i'm trying to obtain a remission of sins that make sense okay mostly sleep gotcha okay so into action or create a micro to read everything basically this philip, who we believe is one of the 70 that they called to go out and help sosa phillips dear he's preaching to people he baptizes them in verse 12, but when they believed philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of god in the name of jesus christ there baptized both men and women, and then in verse 14.

now when the apostles which are at jerusalem heard that samaria had received the word of god, they sent them answer them peter and john who, when they come down to pray for them that they might receive the holy ghost for as yet he was not fall on any of them. only they were were back only they were baptized in the name of the lord jesus in 17 then laid they their hands on on them and they received the holy ghost and when simon and it talks about simon earlier being gay like a sorcerer. i guess saul that through the laying on of hands to the laying on of the apostles hands the holy ghost was given, he offered the money, saying, give me also this power that whomsoever i lay hands on hands, he may receive the holy ghost. but peter said to him by many parishes perish with you because i pass thought that the gift of god may be purchased with money so if we were to say that faith, repentance, baptism resume to get the holy ghost enduring to the end are what it takes to receive the imputed what i would call the imputed righteousness of christ for enduring to the end. it would make sense that has to be done by priesthood authority or by some to eat, as told to go forth baptizing which repeatedly. he told the apostles that they needed to go forth preaching baptizing the name of the father son and holy ghost. and here's the situation where one of their helpers. philip baptizes but don't have the authority to give the gift of the holy ghost of peter and who was petering out river uterine somebody. anyways, they came and gave the get the holy ghost of just shows that if this is the case, those things were lost and needed to be restored. okay so i got a couple thoughts one.

it just struck me as odd that okay so philip you don't believe it's all about the milk as it priesthood.

i know and it could be. i personally don't it could be that he just needed to get authorization from his presiding priesthood authority took for them to get to get the holy ghost as well okay it just seems weird that he would be sent out there without it.

i mean, i think a more plausible explanation is that he was just one person, and there were a lot of people that needed you know i mean if i was all yes this is what i would be staying right that they need more leadership and only makes sense to send the leaders of the church to come down and do that whole cities for yeah i mean bend your arm get tired baptizing the city right so thought about it on the one of the topic and spicy sweet time here, but simon says that he wants to purchase.

you know this this gift bases your money perish with you because you thought the gift of god to be purchase of the problem isn't the money or anything like that mean he would've gotten a reprimand if you said hey peter and milk your cows so that you can give me this priesthood being the same things as a it's a gift from god.

you can't earn it, you can't.

you can't buy with services or with and i would say that even goes to obedience.

you know if it's a gift that i don't think that it is something that can be earned in any way shape or form and using is going just touch on really briefly as you got this story to you now in the acts 10 where out cornelius sees a vision to go to peter and so peter goes to the gentiles, and he's preaching to them and it says that as he's preaching to them, the holy ghost enters into the room and they all speak in tongues and basically says you don't live verse 27 can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the holy ghost as well as we please talking to the other christians anything that they were skewed they received the holy ghost just like us, so why shouldn't they be baptized until the question is, like, why, how can they have received the holy ghost without being baptized, and he is comparing it to their the same way that the believers have received the holy ghost, so to me. i don't think it's as clear cut as what you're saying like there's always there's not always this pattern of people getting baptized and then receiving the holy ghost bailing out hamlet. but his hands on my might the holy ghost just came into the room and they received the holy ghost that is really really interesting. that is very interesting and gets down to two like you have, the younger you know when he does his first baptist backer repenting site, that the elder after they leave kingdom was cordoned preaching the wilderness, they both go down the first and they both come up with one of those days. this is different.

this doesn't happen every single time i guess you're right. there can definitely be situations where it is different. i will, i did want to bring up the point that i the reason i brought up acts is because we were to say you're okay with the difference between lds authority which we consider to be priesthood and evangelical authority which my understanding on evangelical authority is that it's one is the word of god intuits as the spirit is what you would say gives you all the authority right yeah pretty much yeah the word of god. okay so just trying to make the distinction again. not not trying to say pam i got your anything like that. this defending again why there would need to be a restoration going back to simon. he verse 12 he believed philip concerned the things of jesus, and he was baptized on so if he was part of that group that work was baptized. i would say that god doesn't explicitly say but does say peter and john came and gave the gift of the holy ghost by the laying of hands and safety.the holy ghost from peter and john and that he's asking about something different which was the ability to actually give the holy ghost so to me there's there is the distinction there between having the authority to baptize somebody and to give the gift of the holy ghost. somebody else as opposed to just having the spirit not simon may not be the best example because he was a sorcerer so he might not have actually gone down know what does. thoughts on that would be well, bill have to be a discussion for another time because we do need to move on to the next topic, whatever that is. thank you for tuning into this of the outer podcast we'd love to hear from please visit the out of right podcast facebook. feel free to send us a message than with comments or send a message at the time the pain appreciated the page alive. we also have an out of right is in others.

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