Mormon Charismatics (w/ Steven Pynakker), Pt. 2

Your right and and fireplaces part two of our discussion with student particle of the YouTube channel Mormon book reviews. We really appreciate what Stephen is doing because he's showing that latter-day Saints and evangelicals can have productive respectful conversations even where there are disagreements we appreciate his interest in Mormon history as former Latter Day Saints ourselves.

We understand that Latter Day Saints history poses an interest for many who are outside of the LDS faith and we appreciate that he's able to have conversations with historians within the Mormon world that are respectful and so glad to have a conversation with him. She had us on his channel recently to discuss and review Richard bushman's massive biography of Joseph Smith. Rough Stone rolling which both Matthew and I have read and then revisited recently so that was a fun conversation to have with him linking the description to that episode of Mormon book reviews, so we hope you enjoy this conversation and then go give them a watch as well. So Calvinism has a very very high regard for Scripture as a charismatic Christian how to how you view concepts like biblical inerrancy and sufficiency okay so I'm speaking for myself here okay because basically, most your charismatics also have a very very high view of Scripture right in and many of them every literalistic view Scripture a lot of their doctrine is taking things literally had happened in the Bible.

That's overdoing it right so as I walked away from the Evangelicalism and just kind of plotted my own courseware. God was kinda just background noise for a long time I released jumped into studying science, understating the scholarship of the Bible and no understanding how was put together who wrote it.

Things that were added later. Like the long ending of Mark.

All these thing is, it is like really like old man these are things I had no idea. And so I kind of felt betrayed and taught many things right so I'm I'm exposed to the biblical scholarship I'm exposed to a naturalistic worldview and the theory of evolution, and if not taught by like I cannot control that are expensive and they just make about the only date they do a caricature of evolution. I she studied it so I can get a better understanding of itself. So here I'm I understand I understand all the modern science.

I understand all the modern scholarship becomes the Bible.

So when I came back in the Christianity I fascinate use this word there is overused.

I did come back with more nuanced view of things. Okay, one thing I would say this is all personal opinion here, and I all I'm willing to say I'm wrong right I'm saying. I'm open to criticism. I'm not saying this is the gospel truth needs to file. This is just by look at Scripture as being directed by the hand of God, but the fingerprints of man are little are all over it right because I don't think there automatons that are just writing these things down. I think it's a winner when their rightness Scripture is that it's going through. So finally the when you have an encounter with the divine.

And then you try to express it or explain it or write it down, it immediately becomes corrupted because it we can't comprehend the design so when somebody is being inspired like Paul's writing these letters. He's really realizing his right Scripture had he just researches are drug X. The argument by strike so and so I kind of just look at it like okay you know what's the context of this verse who was it written to what, what, what's the audience here doesn't apply to me doesn't apply to the modern world know what do we know about the age of the earth, and how that corresponds to the submit to the bit. The Genesis model right, like for instance in the Genesis model does assume a flatter now. Later in the old and the Scriptures. It does start in invoking ideas around Earth. That's right around the time when the Jews were starting to interact with Greeks and with the Hellenization process. The idea that the earth being a globe was kinda brought in by the Greeks early on in the old and in the Genesis account is read literally on it.

It definitely is. There is a permanent and there's a dome and then there's these colors of the earth underneath is very much a flatter of concept so I take that into account, but that's what they believed I was the world how they understood it existence off so I just try to kinda look at it that way like I look at it like accept the modern Bible scholarship except what's in their most people in the pews don't know this stuff and then what happens is the kids go away to school early start on the Internet. They say I'm out here because I was taught on July so I think people should know all this from the start they need to know about the long ending of Mark, and we need to know about the Trinitarian formula added in the gospel of John by restless right, they don't know that so I kind of feel like I'm biblical critics.

But I love the Scriptures.

I believe it should. Everybody should study it and take it very seriously. But I but I do think that okay I do need to know the scholars say to what is butterscotch. I think the God gave us. He gave us the creation he gave us the mind and gave her Scripture and I think we should just try to take all that and put that in in integrate that into our worldview can these are just my opinions. Yes, that's great that one of my one of my experiences coming out of Mormonism, was that by the time I finished my mission. I was really struggling with questions about the book of Mormon, especially related to his historicity was actually mentioned record of peoples who populated the Americas and come over 600 BC from I'm from Jerusalem. And Billy was struggling with those questions. I came home sought answers to those questions and then towards the end of my time as a latter-day same. I was finishing up my bachelors degree in business at a small Catholic college near where I live Thomas more College and I was required to take religion class, even as a business student because it was a Catholic college so I took a New Testament course and it went into no higher criticism and lower criticism, and all of the things that you were kind of talking about, you having all of that and you know the synoptic problem all all of the kind of scholarly research into the New Testament and for me, studying that out and digging into it. It was it was fascinating. It was thrilling and it actually for me it built my faith because I was at a point in my life where I was like okay I was I was asking myself the question, is the Bible just older lie because I had lost complete faith in the book of Mormon is a historical record, and seeing that you could study the Bible from a scholarly perspective in their disagreements between you know, more secular scholars ends and Christian scholars on how to approach the things like the synoptic problem, but just the fact that you could study it out. You could study it from a historical perspective, you could study from a literary perspective.

You could see that it that it actually is ancient literature that that kind of bolstered my face to where where that kind were those kind of issues sometimes sends young Christians who go away to college and learn them is that a secular university running it actually sent me running towards the church because I was excited and not I saw the yeah the Bible is a historical document. There are questions that the people have about other things you need to study out and learn about and figure out and okay how my gun, how my going to answer this question, but it's an actual ancient document where is the book of Mormon is not so yeah. Interesting how the same scholarship can approach different or can affect different people in different ways and in this is the thing I barter government right. He didn't leave Christianity because of the scholarship. He left Christianity because the problem of evil. Now in Dallas is reached. So this is a thing like so I don't think Christians should fear modern scholarship. I think it should be taught in Sunday school. I think people need to know these things need to understand. It is the key thing a credit to Christianity is that we were the ones that came up with the criticism were the ones that devise housework right we devised the scientific method. We devised the ability to look at her. Scripture is not some kind of thing that cannot be touched like mint. Maybe like letting Orthodox Jews or Muslims view their Scripture.

We have that freedom in Christ that we can get that that gift that God gave us to understand and to study and to scrutinize and to wrestle with God right and wrestled the Scriptures speak to me. That's the beauty of Christianity is that Werther was invented. The criticism of the Bible right where we we we did that.

So to me it's like that's a credit to the faith and and and severe intellectual you really want to get it down in the weeds don't do this superficial thing we do say while the earth is not 6000 years old. These people believing those are can also suck in your get your going after the low hanging fruit man enough there's something really deep and profound in Christianity.

I like the atheist is delve in that kind of stuff because the low hanging fruit. It's always been there but there's something about it. To its credit, Christianity is able to create this world and in the pastors they need to start weakness in the pews.

They need to let people know this is the context and I think Christians will be much better intellectually better filled fulfill better and Alexi learn something, rather than the garbage they're being taught in these churches whether given these PowerPoint presentations where the pastor gives one verse and then he gives Benny's, that is five points is likely going to church because it was affecting my faith.

I every time I would go to church. I do like Nana I'm losing my faith every time I go to church because this is on dysfunctional product.

I guess I can sleep I can just sleep in on Sunday. Watch Oprah get the same ideas.

So to me, as I know we need more rigor in our churches across the board is garbage that even job was in it and when one since the Christian anarchists and he blesses us tear the whole thing down and start all over. On some level because it's just terrible mistake. The church is in right now I'm just I grieve.

I grieve that the state were in right now. Yellow great thoughts. There a lot of a lot of what you said about how we need to not be afraid of scholarship.

I really agree with that and I'm really blessed when I came out of this church. I was introduced reformed theology, tricked him and now, because our pastors their seminaries also and they don't all Genex also because they big deal. They encounter all these different ideas, theories, academic world, and so my pastor when I pastors is doing. He's going to Genesis and he's gone through several months in Genesis. Having gone through chapter will you know he's talking at the different theories about an older day age theory, any and and and he deftly gives his IDR is policing what you know what the biblical account is teaching at the same time I sent at least he's introducing everybody to these different ideas and theories of the world are not blindsided.

And so I really appreciate that because not even innocently disagrees, at least are exposed to it. I think that's important in and we didn't really get that in the LDS church. Now we we got this idea okay this is the way that the prophets and apostles of the hottest and everything else is wrong basically and there's no there's no there's much treatise. There's no no consideration of use.

Basically, modern Christianity is crap to apostate, so running a ticket, that's a serious so it's just refreshing. Like Paul says refreshing for me to find out all of their no disagreement is not a scary thing you know disagreement can be an interesting and fascinating. Rich. Even if I end up disagreeing with maybe some point my pastor make sure that other people that's okay because we still we still have this unique unity and faith in Christ that binds us together and so I think I think that's kind of maybe that's kind with the charismatic limit is like. Would you agree with that. You all disagree in certain aspects of the charismatic gifts still find unity, and in in the working of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, I think. I think the key thing is that so often, especially in the reformed tradition are interested in the mainline in a lot of traditions of the church and I can pick on the Calvinists here explicitly is the idea of worship. Worship is foundational to the faith. And I think that that's where unity can be brought forth. I think that's where the spirit can operate is in the process of engaging God, engaging the spirit allowing the design to assist express itself right in the manifestation of worship right. I think that that is a means that we can communicate with the creator and have a dialogue. It also be touched by him right so I think that the way that I think we can engage each other is through worship, not necessarily what's being taught of the pulpit for support, but I think that we can find the unity and the centrality of what Christianity is through worship and if you allow the spirit to operate within the worship aspect of of I think that's where can work. I think that that's where you can just praise just this being a and all of him and praise him and and and be with this Methodist and be with this Pentecostal in belief and be with this Rastafarian and all immunity just glorify him and I think if we can just do that. I think that's how it works. I think that's how you can allow the spirit to operate because when the in the 60s and 70s when all the stuff was gone, and all these people go to their different churches on Sunday morning. But on that Saturday night that Friday night there all gathered and there there for experiencing Pentecost there experiencing that that mighty wind in their experiencing this this this outpouring of the gifts that there's a unity in that room that so powerful, but people still go to their churches on Sunday right so I think that that's one way where we can achieve it is is through that so I don't know if that's kinda how I think is the way that it works. I think it through and I think that's why you have these worship wars, especially in the 80s and 90s where you just had these churches go at each other because I think what part it was as if we start introducing contemporary Christian music in our churches. Next thing you start speaking in tongues right so that was the fear and it was as always but try to keep in in my mind as a charismatic I so so often see there's a resistance to keeping the spirit out and so they got up anything that changes it leads to change any kind of music that's different than what were accustomed to keep this out here we got to keep the purity of the faith, and purity of our doctrine in Know and I think that this leads to legalism and works I think it leaflets the pharisaical worldview. I think that that you not operating the spirit anymore. You just operating with that with the law then and were inclined to do that. The natural man is inclined to want to operate with this way the laws occur. Strike the spirit is a gift and so I think that that's how we have to look at it and he gave us the law, but the spirit is the gift that we need to embrace and accept and allow that to be the unit that what brings unity to all the body of Christ. Whether it doesn't matter who you are, what church you belong to the body of Christ is the individual members of the individual believers of the church doesn't matter what word word what you're what, what creed you believe in and what your church membership as you think of answering that is great. I do agree with a lot of of this idea that we can we can at least rally behind worshiping God, even if there are doctrinal differences so I really that so let's let's go talk a little bit of remorse about prophecy.

So do you believe that prophecy given to modern prophets is on the same level as Scripture or to prophecy potentially supersede or replace Scripture or perhaps how does the authority of prophecy of the prophets relate to Scripture as generally speaking, I would mean prophecy has slidable Scripture it's not the jet. I mean, unless God decided he just across the curveball for something I don't. I can't foresee a circumstance where I can see Sally directly contradicting Scripture, and that being under of thus saith the Lord, contradicting Scripture I can imagine a scenario in which I would think that was legitimate prophecy you think of answering that II think that is very common when we witness the Latter Day Saints and we try to show them either the old and new Testaments or even LDS can into them, and we compare that to what maybe later I'll just prophets taught and we say hey this doesn't line up with this what you think in a common rebuttal to that criticism as a stairwell by living prophets words supersede that of a dead prophet and I think that was her top and submit to give a talk about that and so that even as Latter Day Saints and never sat well with me because I thought he was what he said. I believe that God knew every so why would God tell you X one day and not ask the next and so I didn't bother me because I didn't know about prophecy from DeMeo discounts apostles of the Bible was actually start studying it a really started leaving unsettled so talk a bit more about Mormonism go on but yes kind of that's kind of what my thought was about about this question because I don't as I rated myself and I still deal with that question. Talk about a six. Now they don't seem to have a problem with contradictory prophecies sought. I'm really glad to hear you say that if you have across your contradicts what got its previously spoken there's a problem yeah I was I would say so and then this goes to, there's contradictions in the Bible to write to me as we understand modern scholarship and a lot of regular churchgoing Christians don't want to know about them either. So I kind of mindset is very similar.

Whether it's in the Christian church or the Mormon church where they just in it like you were just that I want to know about any of the controversy of the contradictions I just want to go to church on Sunday not be bothered by those details. So I think that's part of just a natural thing that people would experience we I think I think yeah I think what's happening and there are people there are plenty of people who claim to be prophets who do say and do's things and say things that definitely are not scriptural and should be condemned very vigorously and unfortunately we don't see that in the charismatic movement is DON'T touch the anointed kind of what you have. The prophets in the Mormon church, you can't touch the anointed. It's kind of the same thing.

Unfortunately, in the charismatic movement. We have some of these personalities that do these things you can document all the things they said they even said that staff Lord and a new one said that there is nine members of the Trinity, a very famous televangelist second. It's not being condemned like it should.

So that's that's a weakness in our part. Thank you for that.

So let's bring Mormonism for the firm.

Listeners who are who are largely post-Mormons who are Christians who are investigating Christianity why why did you get interested in Mormon history, you know, it's just one of those things that I'll never quite understand. I think partly is this discussion we are due right now are cutting. I've been fascinated Mormonism since I was young child I mean I told the story a couple times on a couple places but first encountered a book of Mormon in a Marriott hotel we're staying at and saw the Arnold Friberg paintings and was just kind of blown away by just looking at these paintings and looking like desks like the second coming of Jesus happening during the Old Testament. You know when Jesus is returning to the Americas and all these things these battles, and Samuel. The Lamanite need to set me up to no risk what know what King no one else is going on here right so there it was just in my kite with my parents. All this is church from there there in Utah the and this is their Bible and we don't believe this and still does. Those images of those paintings really struck me then around this a few years later, I guess the Christian television station Chicago air. The God makers and they I actually called one of the cartoon so before Eli rebasing the God makers cartoon on the Internet.

I sought as a young child with God. Acres is out and watched on television. I was doing what he could see it. Let's get a VCR and then you can judge other people and so I watched the cartoon of them are really making an impression on me so you got the images to get the cartoon why the heck would I still be interested. Mormonism right see how you think I'd be afraid and go. I got a stay away from that, you know, but I just found something so interesting and fascinating about it because even as a young child, I thought he only my mind I was like no, we need another Bible because the Bible we have now people are believing anymore and we need modern Scripture, we need Bible today to appeal to the modern world. As a child, I thought this like we got Bible to we didn't have to .0.

Back then, but I would've said Bible to point out in my mind I thought this is really important because we gotta reach the lost and so then I hear about this other young boy who came across these Scriptures right that spoke to modern times it. I had an affinity for that. I found that to be a very interesting idea. Yeah, yeah, okay, I get I get it I get Reese coming from kind almost right so I IIII was always open to the idea that the canon wasn't closed because I realize it's not the Scriptures right it was essentially if you believe that the canon is closed during your kind of endorsing the Council of Trent points you and I kinda feel like I don't think there's anything scriptural about the Academy because I never so scared of the idea that the manuscript, although I didn't think it would ever happen, but to me the idea that there could be no Scripture was not.

That was not a stumbling block for me. I was open enough that ideally I think if God can operate in operating on salons gives description gives the Scripture. So the idea of something like the book of Mormon.

I did find frightening off the top my head so I guess I attending the weights and measures conference in Portland Oregon okay so I was this department had. I was a city sealer in the Sun City and Indiana present head of Department of weights and measures, and I was old enough to rent a car so during my free time I would walk over to Powell's bookstore which is world's largest bookstore and I would go invasive just park in front of the Mormon section business Portland Oregon so you can have pretty although out west, you have certain substantially more Mormon stuff and you would find in the bookstore in the Midwestern Southeast so I just was paging through these books dynamite about one or two of them. I don't remember but basement was easily spent hours area of my free time reading through these books I just remember bumping into this. This guy was just a recent court convert Mormonism and I thought all of this groundwater to three hours later, I'm sitting there like oh man, I really need to study this more. I thought I had an answer. Just as run circles around Meza Reese, this is much more of a challenge that I realized so I had the good Calvinist at that studio scholars who thought he knew everything's okay I got annoyed so I threw myself into studying Mormonism became a student of it, studied it in and what I did was I didn't read the evangelical stuff I didn't read the anti-stuff, I just read the scholarly stuff that I did the same study with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I also did a similar study.

Writers want to know what is the scholarship say what do the historians say. What do the skeptics say or young, but not the anti-but just kind like the rational people what they say about through this.

I just threw myself into it.

Read everything I could and basically taught myself Mormonism to the point that I had very well-known Mormons tell me that I know more about Mormonism than about 99.9% of Mormon's okay so I'm pretty well versed in it. I decided really really fascinating. I think I am a student of history and if you love American history. If you like to read about the pioneer experience you want to read about the Jacksonian. In America you want to read about the anti-Masonic party right you want a repeat you all these the Civil War and then the forming of a new state like the desert rat and then all the trials and tribulations in the polygamy being thrown to the picture but then like there's this prophet who starts the city on the banks of the Mississippi, and he becomes a general one the largest armies in the country and I mean this is a great American story. That's just worthy of study in and of itself is a beautiful, wonderful, fantastic story that's just endlessly fascinating to me and you know what I study. At least I know things about the Hopewell situation Hopewell civilization why because I studied the heartland remodeled the book of Mormon wino but the IDR I know at the Hopewell civilization as I know about Mesoamerica history I know about you know the Maia Mayan the old next to the Mayan civilization.

I know about all these different things that I would not normally encountered if I didn't encounter Mormonism. So I feel that it just kind of intellectually stimulating because eyes as a side note I'm also learning other things and it's actually helps give me a fuller view of the world. So to me it is worth study and I find it interesting still to musically find something interesting just keep on going, keep on studying it was a fascinating part and then I have this bookshelf of books and in my last year I started formulating these different ideas of what I think I might do like a YouTube channel like the statute thought about three or four different ideas would make a good YouTube channel and then I thought I got all these books, maybe I could just do like a little book review channel and reviewed these books in my bookshelf and so I just started I so III kinda all I was on Reddit, you know, is the only media I was on and so I just started connecting with Mormons here and there on Reddit, talking to them, what is in a do. Long story short, I end up attending this community of Christ thing in a meeting all these community of Christ beat people and then a meeting apostles and the independent branches of the Brokaw from the LDS publishers.

There and then next thing you know I'm encountering Mormons to in Eldon Utah.

Next, you know I got Rick Bennett wants to do a coproduction of gospel tangents in the Mormon book reviews. I mean it.

I me. I'm talking to household names in Utah are. I'm talking to. Within a few weeks of missed lunch in this channel so I was completely overwhelmed because I feel the Lord had prepared me for what I was going experience. I was not overwhelmed by it. I just like this. It's okay.

I'm still at the spirit operate here and every email I I said almost every email I sent gets a response on most every telephone call that I make somebody's underlying want to talk to me these are historians.

These are publishers. These are people that normally you would have a difficult time getting a hold of. If you're just like front of the Norman actually I think it's because partly because I'm from the outside out of the evangelical kinda gives me may be an advantage. Now others and say that's noticeably spirit operating use of analytical sites as well as describe the unique thing and so my evangelical bears Veterans Day and everything that happens to you. This is the spirit man. This is a confirmation that you do the Lord's work.

I don't understand you doing see, but it just seems like this Lords operating in your life. And again, my whole goal. This channel was just to be secular and scholarly and intellectual just vanity project is something a labor of love that I was to do but then relatively short period of time I start encountering people start tell me their spiritual experiences and dreams and visions they had mixing and I also start running into Christians with which surprised me. Mormons like people who believe the book of Mormon is Scripture, but also they have big they are confession.

They are confessed Christians, so that's another avenue that I went into so just everything kinda really exploded over the last couple months and it's very unexpected. I didn't anticipate. I'm going to the Mormon history Association conference this weekend.

I have in my cell phone to head the executive director of the Mormon history Association IMEI could pick up the phone or architects that right now will respond to me every beat all the sudden just thrust into this world and and and have all these connections with people that I wasn't anticipating. I mean I could tell you a half-dozen names are not in a name on air that are well known. Current Mormons are both Mormons or X Mormons and some evangelicals are well known that I've engaged with within just weeks to be starting the channeling of this crazy how funny I'm sitting at a desk.

It's not the production values aren't that great is just me sitting there in front of a desk at a due to desk and a bookshelf talking and then and then I started doing interviews and then in August as I get there I start talking to Rick Bennett. He's on board. He wants to help me and always just wonderful things happen and so that it's been part of the human aspect to see.

It was all book knowledge about Mormonism. I just study that I read it I didn't but I away. This is a religion and they believe in God, and they believe the Holy Spirit may believe in miracles and they believe in Jesus and so of course I'm going to start encountering that aspect of it, as well as more than just an intellectual endeavors well and you start engaging human beings and realize all these are these I have a characteristic caricature in my mind what harm is and then on dealing with them like they're just there just like me man.

In other the same as I am in many ways and they have the same hopes and fears then they have the same concerns about life they they they and and so and they have a real many of them have a real hunger so wants to know Jesus or they love Jesus and so it's like you know these are these are people that I just really love so much and I just love the opportunity to do been able to mean I have a 19-year-old the one the first Mormons I reached out to. He and I we start talking and and and he says well at 7 o'clock I'm gonna get my announced my family were endemic spend my mission and and he set out to be doing it 5 o'clock my time 7 o'clock your time is only waiting for your parents to companies that yeah about 730.

He messages advances I'm going out to California give me that Mr. be at summary of his 19-year-old kid is going on his mission and he's in a email me like once a week and give me an update on his mission ill and then on mean just the intimacy that I'm having with Mormons was not something I was expecting. It's a very human thing that I'm doing is a very human thing I'm experiencing, but I feel honored and privileged that these people have trusted me and have made me feel quite at home. They've shown kindness to a stranger, which I think is a very Christlike attribute that I think you really appreciate a lot of the things inside are really resonated with what you were saying about Mormon history of and the breadth of knowledge that a kind of branches out from there because a kind of touches everything related to American history. I remember reading there's a there's a historian of the Jacksonian era, Robert Rimini, and he wrote a very short biography of Joseph Smith, and I remember reading that when I was still Mormon and then branching out to his other books about the Jacksonian era and so it just takes you in consumer different directions. Also really appreciated what you what you said when you started speaking from your heart about Mormons because that's kind of why we started this podcast is we want to be a place where resource for Mormons who are questioning their faith, but don't necessarily want to go in in the direction of agnosticism or atheism.

They want to continue and then feel continued to be drawn towards Jesus. So we wanted to be a place where they can feel safe to listen to us were were guys who walked that road and here we might not know for some people. We might not have all of our doctrinal ducks in a row or what have you with my savings and a little bit of not as not to steal as theologically as two-way, but we want that we want to reach Latter Day Saints were post-latter-day Saints who who are drawn to Jesus. So, I like your your your heart for them and and really appreciate that.

So we mentioned earlier that early Mormonism can have a charismatic the beginning right new prophecy new Scripture speaking in tongues and yet as that kind of was exploding in in the Western reserve after Joseph Smith kinda move the church to Kirtland. She kinda came out against peroxidase arms and tongue speaking and even said that you can know for sure that there of the devil sorted what you make of the early latter-day St. movement with regards to charismatic outpourings of experiences. I just find it interesting that when you have manifestations of the Holy Spirit and you have this immediate reaction to want to stop it. I find that very fascinating thing that we see throughout history, but the interesting thing about is okay so you had this gentleman by the name black people. It's unfortunate that the only name we have some history about who apparently was engaging in some kind of enthusiastic religion might've been influenced by the African tribal African traditional religion so were not super sure and he was the claim that a black Angel gave him a letter that conferred upon him certain authority and that he was kind of an early leader before Oliver Cowdrey or Justus never got to Kirtland, but these are people who were reading the book of Mormon and believed in it and so they were starting to have these manifestations. Some of it I definitely think is not legit.

Okay I me I think I look at it and as described in the analysis. Kinda weird, but in so I guess enjoy a night in a state licensed in some way endorses the defense, I can say that he comes there and he puts a stop to it. Now what happens is as a result of this group in Kirtland. They start sending out missionaries okay and that these two go and they meet this guy named Brigham Young and they start telling him about tongues and so then Brigham Young starts. He reads the book of Mormon and at some point he starts speaking in tongues. 16 old Graham comes to Kirtland and there upstairs in a tavern having the service of some kind of service and he started speaking in tongues and Joseph goes and says that is the pure Adamic language that you just spoke most the people in the room and dissipated.

Joseph was just to put the kibosh on it right then and there and he said that was the pure Dominic languages, we just spoke that we know that there is that historically documented Brigham Young gate would give sermons and in the back then sermons were 45 minutes.

These were hours long and he gave full sermon speaking in tongues.

I find that very interesting. I don't know what to make of that I sign it. Just so so and and some say was a racial component.

Maybe Joseph was a racist and he didn't want black people have any power. By the way probably did have had the priesthood could conferred on him so early on there was a black member who had the priesthood, just so you know what is it so I don't know. I'm not trying is cast aspersions on Joseph. Like that sometimes in stock and analytically but maybe because Brigham's white. Maybe it becomes more acceptable. I don't know. So then of course you have in in 1835. You have this delegation from England. There are following like they're called Irving I'd still like to The cost Apostolic church I think is what they're called and they're still around today actually met a minister in that church years ducks and they were what's called kind of like a proto-Pentecostal thing because they were operating the gifts and they were doing these kind of things and Joseph was intrigued by them and they were actually in talks of possibly merging. I don't how far these talks came but there was discussions about merging with the Irving ice who at this directly bigger than the Mormons and actually bringing these two groups together and so Joseph was still open to the idea of the gifts of the spirit is as late as 1835 and, of course, and we have the Kirtland Temple and all that's happened I'm so glad you read that earlier today because it had a refreshed last night so you can see early on in the church. There's his dad there's an ebb and flow. There's is dabbling in theirs is experimentation going on and then there's like well you pull back on this and then there's this idea of authority in an interview course you have the same thing with other people using seer stones know only one person has this gift, but then you Oliver Cowdrey had the ability to divine with the rod so you even there working that out and and so, like who had authority in a display Joseph at this point becomes throughout the years it becomes established. He is the only authority that can really operate in these in these realms, but that that whole idea of the gifts. The spirit said notice is the most fascinating thing about see the book of Mormon.

My friend Christopher Thomas wrote the book, a Pentecostal reads the book of Mormon, and he basically said this is a Pentecostal document. He was shocked that the doctrine that Barnum came up with and in the early 19 during the Azusa Street.the idea is industry revival.

The idea of evidence in tongues of tongues being the show that you have received the got good to feel the spirit that is a unique doctrine that comes out of there and somehow finds its way into the park for her fifth right so he's totally intrigued by that only a Pentecostal still first person ever pick that up. Nobody ever caught this before. This is kind of new stuff that's been picked up the so idea how thoroughly Pentecostal. The book is but if you read the book of Mormon is a thoroughly Pentecostal book. If your church was patterned after after the church. That's in the book of Mormon. It would be a very very Pentecostal book very interesting so very fast anything so there is something about the gifts of the spirit, the Holy Spirit, tongues, gifts, healing all that kind of stuff even kinda being slain in the spirit get all that stuff in the book of Mormon is in the early decade or so of the church. So on some level it's pretty Pentecostal movement is very it's it's very fascinating to me because when you read that dear to reading the story the beginning I'm hearing this is like I've heard the stories before the horse.

Analytical parties like well Steve, what is that say about your movement right so I mean I understand that you and sometimes is still no I don't really know what was going on there. Part of me feels very strongly that when you have a menu of people together there. Julie truly diligently seeking the face of God. They want to have communion with the Lord and they want to have Jesus in their lives were having visions of Jesus pocket.

I member I was at the current Kirtland Temple and I will after I left Kirtland Temple. I went to the visitor center. It that the LDS church has denied the privilege of having a tour given to me by the mission president and his wife, and they took me around to show me all the different places. You know the street. And she went to me and she said in all my life I wanted to go to Israel.

I wanted to go to Jerusalem and walk the streets to Jesus pocket but then we got here and I read the history of this place and realize Jesus. She sits right there. Jesus walked on the street right here so I no longer had to go to Jerusalem because I'm in a place for Jesus walked the streets. There is something there that like I find precious and resonates with me like this person loves Jesus and they wanted to be in the place would block Jesus's footsteps and she satisfied with being there and Kirtland know-how because she believes that Jesus walked on the roasted on the there as well and so there's just like so many fascinating things going on in the early church that I found just I think that there's something going on searching the book of Mormon or something going on that I just find truly fascinating and I just don't kick. We put all the pieces together, but I think it's really cool and less you think.

I think to even as: I would consider ourselves post Latter Day Saints.

I still personally find interest in learning more and I feel like recently.

My migraines like Swiss cheese like I carried stuff and I was stuck just comes back out. But I love just listening to videos for my Dan Vogel or others who talk about the early church history and and you had mentioned that you interviewed. Yeah so when I was first questioning when I first started doubting my testimony and the obvious church. I was really drawn to John humorous presentation to get to know and on more stories podcast and I really liked that idea of freedom know because I felt so confined and so closed in the LDS church. This idea that like bikini of Christ allows you to have this freedom to have different ideas, positive beliefs, not really. That really spoke to me at the time.

And so, like I was. I was I was like public 35% away of like considering joining because it was familiar enough to be his letter to say no. We have seen, and backgrounded and and we would just admit the book of Mormon. I stopped alike a lot to me but but it also did also tried to go more towards biblical teachings of Trinity and other doctrines that are historical Christianity and rejected doctrines from the Kroger price let you know the book of Abraham's huge shelf and so yeah, I really find Johnny fascinating.

Even I didn't go that direction. 2000 important part of my transition. This is is I bought you know I went to their Harold house publishing website about your books and that you know about their their version of the inspired first by transition the Bible and it never showed.

Dr. Cohen is the extra revelation scenario because I was talking to 70s and the practice that is really disfiguring them so yeah two@history of the artistry fascinating and just a different the different paths that people after this misstep know all the different divergences. Everything is split off from the meat because is a letter asynchronously taught well I mean yeah there there was a group that stayed behind. But there's a longer nor the right and you find out what dozens of branching movements after the death of Joseph before Joseph. Other people are. Yeah it's it's it is a piece of American history so II think that that's something interesting apart first study to understand yes also thank you because he knows honestly guys this is really the first time I've ever had a conversation like what this evangelical's in this context, so I really did not expect a lot of my first time doing a lot of first things on camera run podcast instead of a weird experienced experience that I will say like I spent over 90 minutes giving having a very deep conversation with John Hamer really got into some really interesting stuff because I eat everyone smile like this is sort historical presentations. A very interesting that but he would be like on the alike of Mormon stories are best tangents or some like that and and more so on on Mormon stories where he might say something very interesting but because it was kind of spiritual or theological jungle and was like okay move on tothe notes continued doing for bashing here and the isopleth interesting idea. I need to talk to them. So we talked for the first 45 minutes. We talked about his life and he tells things about his life that I don't think have been. I don't recall ever hearing about so you'll hear some new information about John is just a great guy and then we spent like a good 45 minutes talking deep.

Dr. bike. What is metaphorical view of Scripture look like, how does one live a life and I even kinda phrased it with the idea that let's say you're somebody was thinking of just leaving the fate altogether because the book of Mormon or the Bible just can't take it literally anymore and that just doesn't work anymore know what we do as Christians are as Mormons to keep these kind are best and brightest in the church can we accommodate and metaphorical reading of Scripture and allow these people to still be in fellowship with us, and in it and maybe this is a way an avenue of rather than becoming an atheist, but you can still encounter the divine and still encounter the Scriptures because John even told me that for the first time in decades.

They they that he preached out of the book of Mormon. He did a whole series of the book of Mormon. Then use the book of Mormon in that particular congregation in Toronto in a very very long time, but it was a metaphorical idea but he said you don't the book of Mormon is still Scripture to me and so I took a metaphorical approach to the Mormon items.

Very interesting stuff. I just found to be an endlessly fascinating guy. By the time this this episode comes out it will be been posted on my on my YouTube page, so check it out because I think it's just a really interesting interview doubt I'll deftly check that I loved the humility. I think that John Henry had to with John Doe and Mike.

He said a lot of time spent on the critical and John Hamer.

What would give his opinion he would say well this is how I view things or you know this. This is my theological position versus nonacademic position in an that really spoke to me at the time just like you know this guy is really cool. I want to build a amount of my own opinion but be able to direct others not the offender yet. He's just like did you see me I got interacts for them and then you just like he is the I knew what to expect when I was dealing with him yeah and that's the thing to do is you know if I that reminds me of the second the second interview of Christopher Thomas, Paul, where were there they were talking about him him doing the book of Mormon in in some sense Christopher Thomas was defending the book of Mormon to consult with because judges could go so far. One tangent in the prisons I hate you don't wait, wait, there's something in here this kind interesting art is actually some value here because Christopher took the text very seriously and in road quite a substantial study of the book was translated on the nurse and there still interesting things that you can glean on this thing so here you have this Pentecostal defending the book of Mormon to Jacqueline. What is interesting setup that was I think we find ourselves doing that to because there are a lot of Antero and I wanted despaired our brothers in Christ, but there a lot of specious arguments that are made against Mormonism know that I won't use our try not to use the just don't find them convincing that I didn't find them convincing as latter-day St. low hanging fruit is so that we love them but same time as I can and I would Mary's argument or are so yeah it is not that we would defend in terms of like promoting the district and state time want to accurately S&S biblical. The podcast was to accurately represent latter-day St. police because anybody can make a strawman and and you know like that to Chris. We want to really interact about any state-sponsored respectful manner and also to accurately represent their beliefs and say okay here's how we believe that the Bible speaks on this particular topic in Incan and compare and contrast to this lease on this topic and then that's what we wanted to be actually interested in. All such deposits. Later I be interested more to have more letters are programmed to talk another steroid debate just in discussion form you love them we love them I think is important and I also tell one of the things I tell you Joe's don't be afraid of the book of Mormon. There's there's very little in the book of Mormon that you would have a problem without the other was on trying to find was a very little Mormonism in the book of Mormon. They think that all these Mormon doctrines and there isn't.

And so I as I equate to you know a lot of Christians believe the Pilgrim's progress on some level was inspired. No John Bunyan received it in the dream vision and oddly said I had this dream in this vision enfolded and and this I wrote this book right and so for years. It is kind of fallen out of favor the last couple decades, the Pilgrim's progress was kind of a very inspirational thing to many Christians for very long time. You don't become army could not possibly play the same role on some level great. The giver of I know we can talk about before the we have programs collect its is controlled chaos south. I'm really grateful that you been able to willing to count you the questions we sent you to have a discussion I'm having fun and enjoying the skies right listening to our brightness and contrast like to walk with Jesus. And when this is really a measurement born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ base and teaching the name of our podcast.

Our brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition years challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around so we talked about on here. Are there any other famous or favorite historians of yours from the Latter Day Saints church or just historians of quantity centered by think of me and I respect the work of Jan ships and I think she's done a lot of good stuff you're from an outside perspective. I kind of respect her work. I really enjoy Dan's, although I just I find his books and his videos I watched all his videos I find to be an interesting fella in the Michael Quinn I actually have engaged that much but I do want to engage him a little bit-I'm sorry past I would've loved to have them on my show. Well of course I Matthew Harris on my show and he's written some great stuff on Ezra Taft Benson and I did just finished a three-part interview that I just posted part three the other day where we talk about the history of Ezra Taft Benson in his role he played in the American right wing politics as well as letting influential he is to this day in the in the LDS church so Matthew Harris is a really top-notch guy.

I haven't read yet, but Mark staker is one of the top church people who is a curator historian acting as apologists. He's is work I hear is fantastic. I felt one of his books.

I'm going to read and review and have him as a guest honey think here in August on Brody and and then of course I think I've read rough Stone rolling by bushman probably three times cover to cover probably spent 12 years since I got it so I haven't reviewed it yet because I want to kinda go through engage in more time before I do a review so yeah there's that I'm sure there's it. I could list a half-dozen more people, but yet it's really good to think him. You know, I really enjoy grant Palmer when he wrote insiders view of Mormonism. He was still a member in good standing. He was the one that he tried to look for images of GF Joseph looking in the hat. The beef stone and there aren't any images that were existent or they could get his hands on so he had the commission to works to be put in that book. So that's an important contribution to the historical research the commission to works that showed for the very first time Joseph using the peep stone in the hat so that I personally just I've seen grant Palmer on Mormon stories just sounded to be a very wonderful person but I like his writing as well he does. He wrote a book called the incomparable Jesus. I'd like to get that I haven't read it yet but I do want my hip get my hands on the copy of that as well.

Yeah, I really enjoyed reading dear that incomparable Jesus was Mozilla one insiders view mortgages That we said just real quick to anyone for site I personally become friends with Jonathan.

Neville goes not really a story is an attorney but is written is one of the chief intellectual advocates for the heartland model of the world book of Mormon took place in him and I become fast friends and is a an interesting fellow, and I enjoy I enjoyed reading his his stuff as well. So yeah, I was really sad day or two about our grant Palmer's passing because I would've liked to talk to. Also, because during my transition phase. I read his book insiders view and I was really interesting because he kind of addressed all the things that I had already been questioning my life and I'll see you at that as an insider argues that as a faithful others. He kind of admitted gathers things here that I don't understand or Reconciled and if so validating to me is a question Latter Day Saints here someone else be like oh yeah I'm not crazy as it is a questioning letter to state you feel like that sometimes less, we made a sarcastic schedule is because we want to share our experiences because I wish there were something like this out there when I was?

I felt like I was so completely isolated in the world, like I was only one of the world had these thoughts. These feelings I thought I was losing my mind is like when each of myself no because you grow up in this this mill you of Mormonism and you feel like and what he just believes that and doubted in its really messes with your your concept of reality.

And what's true and what's not and you just cannot lose all sense of what's what's what's right and wrong, and I'm sure if you want to believe in a God and ask all the this maelstrom of just ideas and thoughts that and so to hear somebody agree Palmer's work just like oh okay I know not the only one so and and I have read parts of is a couple Jesus. I really enjoyed it. It talks a lot about how is his ministry prison system and how you work with people and he would just talk to him about Jesus and so it's on my bucket list of things to read as well as Richard work. I have it.

I just finished one of the many theology Christians and LL the theology books on it started in 18. It is one of book that I got this so yeah, I agree with you. I have a lot of respect for those utilities and have a lot of respect you. I think he's admitted that there's a lot of things are difficult to reconcile. I think Presser just pushed you know push our agenda error to push our sure opinion and not be willing to concede or to even examine Societies problematic as Christians we should be able to say okay we know this criticism may be I don't agree with it but at least I'm addressing and I think that's important and I idolize love that pushed me was the couldn't be long enough. I can be twice the size of is that whatever this continued success. As goes out saying to Christopher Thomas is another great theologian/historian that I encountered that as well so I might talk about all the times they don't care. But yeah, but a good people a lot of interesting minds that you engage and I enjoy that and I feel just a meal better as a human being reading a lot of this material and the such as a good education. If your reader man Mormonism is a place that maybe look into because it you will never run out of things to read about it and it's only a couple hundred years old. Interesting to think they're so much out there. It's a psycho. Well, it doesn't. And there's different theories about you know with with vocals book making a profit or something like that. Yes, his own ideas about how does he know how he was no foreigner formulated became a profit art or how there's interaction between him and his followers, like there's the feedback system of note he would give a prophecy and that they would believe in the kind of holsters, competence so that would Feed into you know that there's a lot of interesting stuff I find interesting is that what is on Kindle now do such. See how my mind for years.

I know I'm a hard copy, guide you can the hard hardcovers are a fortune. So I'm noticing I find somebody from signature books is a guys letting come of the paperback edition of that because the Vogel book came out at the same time, the bushmen came out there, both 4550 box size.

I will wait for the paperback so the bushmen paperback came out I bought that and was a little ill because in my bar local Barnes & Noble had both of them and you know this is interesting thing about Dan Vogel and one of the things and I think this is something I think is worth pursuing because I find it very interesting. He believes that what the first vision was was what would he calls her coins, a born-again experience right so I'm thinking okay what if Joseph Smith had a born-again experience right. A lot of what he does on some level actually makes more sense. This might sound really weird but just hear me out. This is kind of an act ad hoc thing of the stone together that I've been thrown together for the last few weeks is this is say a born-again experience, and he feels a conviction that so and they didn't even grant Palmer's in one of his Mormon stories, interviews, somewhere. I remember he talks about in all Joseph did have a heart for souls. He set out he was in New York City and he sent this letter to Emma describing about just how how overwhelmed he was about all these lost souls and we need to reach them for Christ. Something along those lines. So you had like something there that he felt the need to want to convert people and I try to feel like when I look at Joseph Smith. I see the same mentality that you hear from a lot of evangelists, which is save the lost at any cost and I'm thinking Joseph like you know these Indians.

I need the Lord and most breakeven jungles at the time, believe that the 10 lost tribes, many of them believe that the 10 lost tribes built about the bounds and I think that Joseph and his own way and this is just kind of a theory and that's do you Mormons out there and up including the supernatural year on the because I'm not here to bash understeer to explore different avenues there, but I think that he had a heart for the Indians we lead these people.

The Lord third civilizations being crushed and these are broken people and we need to tell them their true history and I think he felt it. What we would call inspiration like writers have this inspiration were all of a sudden all these words are falling out of Heather's right stepdaughters.

I kind of in a manic state right in there just like the old saying all these things and I think that you know people who are in.

They say I was inspired I had abused or whatever.

These authors and stuff like that is almost, it's almost kind of a supernatural thing when all these things just come through yeah right, like I think maybe when he's producing the book of Mormon. He's feeling like okay yeah this is real. This how really reached the Native Americans you know. So my my mind. I think he's looking at this is an evangelistic tool to reach the Greeks lost and that's was his intention was to beginning this is why the Lamanites right and we recently need to tell them their true heritage and who they are, that they are important people and that they are a chosen people like and then need to come back right so to me when I read so I look at it like this sounds like a guy who really hasn't this a burden for his lost souls was lead people to the Lord. He feels like he's inspired to create this document that he believes is probably being produced via some supernatural way and he produces a thing and then at this point, even when he starts this whole endeavor. I don't think he's thinking of becoming a proper starting church significance of the book of Mormon comes out before the church even starts right and then as the thing evolves, it just kinda beat the I don't think everything was just this is a flyby is the seat of his pants kinda guy right and he was just kinda throwing stuff out there, but I think a lot of what he was saying. I think he really believed was being guided from the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I'm trying to give like the best taste like the Steelman argument is on getting here, but I can see that a lot of what I see with what Jim Baker built the city or Robert saw 200 foot Jeep called Jesus when he had said that there is multiple members of the Godhead which is a different view of the Trinity as well as multiple gods right plurality of gods, Kenneth Copeland can tell you it tells us that you can become a God like a Toby was that of Joseph Smith was around today could be on TBN and and so I just kind of look at it from like I if Joseph had a born-again experience, and he said Anita felt the need for souls and work because were all human and we all operate in the flesh and the ark were carnal and we kinda sometimes confuse what the spirit was/is it can't differentiate and sometimes we think is something is a spirit, but as the flesh where he's human, just like we are so kinda given like an alternative scenario where I can see how he could be born again and still do all this stuff and see it happen in the night. We can see some manifestation of it present itself in our modern arrow to this day. We see this kind of thing. I will just kinda my little take on it. I which I just kind of find me an interesting thought a lot of because fighting them some crap but that's just my thoughts. None now want to see the TBN special note like an alternate world alternate universe theory of Joseph Smith as deviant spot and he's selling what is it like miracle water to know what it was. What would be so does just say like you know I mean I just kinda see a little bit of that there and so II kinda see it a little bit in the charismatic movement. A lot of people I just mentioned are people are silly with the charismatic movement on the I'm not trying to hide anything from you guys are not trying to say they got everything right here I'm saying again. You know, there are some parallels here that need to be explored every thought and� If Joseph Smith were in a modern-day but I'd like to think it's even further out, but I guess I really been really enriching and then really interesting and and like I said I'm not medium an image of what you were previously as does the nuclear colonists you know and then down but I enjoy interaction goal that different experiences different life. No, you know different life experiences different memories different beliefs and backgrounds as I really appreciate you coming on so I just liked gives us time to now to be able to if you have anything any upcoming interviews yellowing on your channel to challenge talk about that earlier in the program or interview. Is there any upcoming interviews that our universe would be interested in listening to our upcoming project projects that you have so much turns to Murray to you to plug anything you like to announce to everyone is assuming this is where in early June and I am actually not in the place where I normally fill my book reviews, so I only got about two or three more book reviews that I'm gonna release so I do a book review on Thursday and interview on Friday and so I have a couple more them to release and I'm going to do like okay. End of season one book reviews. This is what you can expect for season two. In October will start producing season two of the book reviews okays that's plan start on start releasing in October of November will start on IXC that I think when they do the very first book review is actually going to be a special right talk about Battle Star Galactica and Mormonism. I thought that would be a fun way to start off the season one and then I got quite a few interviews lined up now. By the time this episode.

These episodes of the students might be more than one part at this point. By the time these air I'm going to have quite a few interviews. I already have a few in the canned that will be coming on the next few weeks I had this fascinating author who Germany is a fairly well-known novelist.

He he was a Mormon missionary who was from Hawaii and the he only converted one person and that one person ends up being his future wife and this guy is unknown in America. This is like the first English language interview that will be conducted within and he's a fairly well-known German author, novelist, and this is that it will be his entry point into the American market with his talk about losing my religion how he eventually end up losing his faith and his faith in God altogether, leaving but is also why I love and left the Mormon church so he doesn't leave in a you is that he's not busy doesn't last long.

Mormonism at all. He's morbid to loving us got a love letter to annex.

You know, so I find so I'm just looking for interesting people to have on his guest so of other people want to contact me and go to my website Mormon book reviews.com and there's a place for you can email me contact me.

There and check out the website and were still under construction but were working on that and then so like basically up throughout the summer. I just plan on doing it one or two interviews, we can just post them in jail Thursday Friday I'm going to have a venture will now start talking the fellow pod casters and new tubers of the restoration people who might have the subscriber base of about 50 to 500 have them come on my show and cut out cross promote cross pollinate our channels so that the smaller channels can help each other out.

I think it's kind of a cool idea.

I've already one interview and the camphor that will be released, that the next few weeks so so you know knows it's been a month from now. I don't know, but this week I'm going to Mormon history Association. I worded a thousand business cards and just about every Mormon historian and scholar of note is going to know who I am. A week from now. So who knows what the heck will be coming down the pike is well me.

I do have Sandra Tanner will be coming on.

We were going to do an interview this week, but she's giving a speech he's actually going to be at the Mormon history Association this Thursday with Hurley on the same stage with her and this is the first time she's ever been invited to it be on a panel for the Mormon history Association even went to the said that I sure you your allowed to leave an inviting and like yeah we want to hear Sandra these are the Camelot years for Sandra Tanner because everything they they been totally almost on some level been totally vindicated for a basis and only clearly has asked Greg with them anymore. Sandra's getting this grudging respect that she kinda deserved all along, especially Gerald was a was a genius. So what we decided to do is were going to have the interview after she gives the presentation to the Mormon history Association and kinda do a postmortem but also have like a bunch of questions I have for her that people have and asked her before and so II have some questions so we can find out more about Sandra Tanner that you haven't heard before so I'm a little long-winded, but I'm just very excited about what's coming down the pike and you guys are very awesome and I think it was Your Honor inflated the privilege to be on on this podcast today and there's so much there that I'm just so excited to hear Alec. I'm a huge Battle Star Galactica fan old and new, like of data. I met a group on Facebook is 18 people in it. If you wanted a lozenge and invite okay I buzz means or whatever you gotta start going up that spoke to me.

MorningStar was dead. I like Star Wars the boy that Battle Star Galactica you had Adamo you had lost tribes new head angels and you had Lucifer the head count endlessly which it was hidden and is the Arabic word for the devil you know all these different characters from these that does that to me was is interesting. I love that show and I just adding another accountable is interesting. I knew about Roosevelt and that's obvious� And about him was invited fireflies. That's a wrap on this episode, Stephen. Really glad you were able to come on if you want to have us on for an interview on your show love to cross pollinate with you for our listeners. We got some exciting stuff coming up as well for season six.

Matthew and I are still planning a few things got an interview lined up with the young Mormon philosopher who is studying at University of Texas and he's in a come on and talk to us about his view of free will. Could you text a little bit different position on the car on the idea of doctrine of free will than the LDS doctrine typically takes so that should be rich in conversation, I want scan student. But, non-will be watching your YouTube channel. Thanks thank you Stephen thank you for tuning into this of the out of love to hear from please visit the out of my face and feel free to send us a message that comments are sent a message of appreciated page July the also have and how to write is another episode can also send this is hear from you soon and subscribe to the brightness podcast on canvas cast box cast the modified stitcher. Also you can check on YouTube channel. If you like it shortly grade can also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland as well. Music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com state right fireflies to show you and leave. The kind of you and a and and and and we will be on you he you and and and and and and and in a will and in and in