Are Mormons Christian?, Pt. 2 (Gospel Topics Essays Series)

Your answering right and and fireflies will come back to outer brightness. This is part two of the episode in which Matthew the nuclear Calvinist and the apostate. Paul discussed gospel topics SAR Mormons Christian in part one we discussed the introductory section of the article as well as the first main section titled Latter Day Saints do not accept creeds of post-New Testament Christianity in this part of the episode. Part two will be discussing the sections titled Latter Day Saints believe in a restored Christianity, Latter Day Saints, believe in an open canon and conclusion. So hope you enjoy this episode and thanks for listening. Give us a like and subscribe on your favorite podcast app to our YouTube channel and give us a like and subscribe there have the notification button again, welcome, and we hope you enjoy the conversation I would like to egg on the second section started yes I such a second point third section sounds good. Okay Latter Day Saints believe in a restored Christianity another premise used in arguing that Latter Day Saints Christians is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not dissent the traditional Linux-based Christian churches Latter Day Saints are not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant saints plagued by ministering of angels just met priesthood authority to act in God's name was returned or brought back to earth. This is the restorative, not a reformed church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why so many Latter Day Saints from the 1830s to the present have converted from other Christian denominations. These converts did not and do not perceive themselves as leaving the Christian fold.

They are simply grateful to learn about and become part of the restored Church of Jesus Christ which they believe offers the fullness of the Lord's gospel.

A more complete and rich Christian church, spiritually, organizationally and doctrinal numbers of creedal churches often mistakenly assume that all Christians have always agreed and must agree on. Historically, static, monolithic collection of beliefs, as many scholars have acknowledged, however, Christians have vigorously disagreed about virtually every issue of theology, practice of the centuries leading to the creation of a multitude of Christian denominations, the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints differs from that of the many creedal Christian churches is consistent with early Christianity. One who sincerely loves worship that follows Christ should be free to claim his or her understanding of the doctrine. According to the dictates of his or her conscience without being branded as non-Christian as Lana section.

So I have some thoughts but what about you Paul that you go first.

Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is that I think that Latter Day Saints should recognize in the bands understand that the anti-creedal approach that they take is the same anti-creedal approach taken by other restoration as to movements that grew up around Joseph Smith in which he was also swimming so you know where the great paragraph says that members of creedal churches often mistakingly mistakenly assume that all Christians have always agreed and must agree on. Historically, static, monolithic collection of beliefs so that I would say maybe some do but that the restoration nest groups that were in the Midwest where Joseph Smith was was preaching and and and working on his ministry. They they said things like China China come up with a quote from Alexander Campbell may not come up with an exact quote just paraphrased, but basically the idea that that he put forward was that so when I say no. But Christ pesters restoration nest early restoration nest leaders like Alexander Campbell were necessarily fully anti-creedal what they would've said something very similar to what the last sentence of the last paragraph in this essay says, which is basically you know that they they would accept as a brother. Someone who doesn't have that full understanding of the Trinity or no other early Christian creeds and councils they would rather still fellowship with that person as as a Christian. If that person has. If the person is a believer in Jesus Christ, and they have the, the fruits of the spear evidence of their lives in cities. These kind of ideas come from the broader restoration. This movement, of which Latter Day Saints belief and practice is just one variety. I know, so that previously denied. But I pointed out again here because I think it's important for Latter Day Saints to have that historical perspective because if if you say that it will members of creedal churches don't have the historical perspective that Christianity is not been a static, monolithic collection of beliefs. While there is some truth to that, there have always been groups of people within the broader tenants of Christianity who have rejected aspects of creedal Christianity.

No Protestants accepted the first seven ecumenical councils, as do Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic, so there is a there is a unity of belief in terms of the first seven economical councils, but if if Latter Day Saints or to say you know creedal Christians lack the historical context. Then I just want to point out the Latter Day Saints should have historical context for the source of their beliefs for the source of their approach to the creeds that comes out about restoration nest movement. Yeah, once a great points.

I wanted to bring up to in section also plays here that we so we had interviewed vocab alone a while ago and it was right after he had a debate about the Athanasian Creed. Specifically, I would Latter Day Saints and he said that they would.

They went to the various creeds to talk about it to see which ones they would debate about and felt they had Latter Day Saints admitted that no they agree with the wording of the apostles Creed have no problem with it and basically with most of the Nicene Creed theater so that I will tell us on May the agree on most of it. So that's how they chose the Athanasian Creed because they're very hard, distinctive teachings are not obvious but disagree with. So I find it interesting that no one in Joseph Smith's history. He wrote that God told him that all their creeds all the creeds of Christianity were an abomination, yet most of yes they would have no problem affirming the apostles Creed. So I just think that's Fascinating enough that all the creeds are an abomination, like a flower in his skin was I, but yeah so going back to the section they believe it's restored Christianity. It's yeah it's one thing I wanted to bring up was that this this focus on authority know that there is discontent a real focus that you need this apostolic succession, which is kind of a big thing. Also in orthodoxy. Catholicism in some parts of Protestantism to the Catholics on that like to know Anglicanism, talks about succession but sought, so I'll just say like you said they did with the authority is completely lost from the beginning and that this is the reason why an end.

So it started off like he said with a priest and a party being lost and then that led to doctrinal corruption. Over time, and the loss of truths and then once the authority was was a restored prophecy. Return to Joseph Joseph Smith and others spend� Back but one thing that I really like out in Scripture is that is not just the words of Jesus recounts the gates of Hades will not prevail against his church and that's 18 but I really loved you a way to describe so Jude only one chapter tickets for errors three so Jude is kind of giving out warnings E.

Speaking to the Christian church.

He says to those work called leaving God the father and Jesus Christ may mercy be multiplied to you in verse 311. While I was making every effort spread you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing to contend earnestly for the fate that was once for all time headed down to the states. So if the faith is once for all time headed saints, that doesn't sound like he's anticipating that is ever going to boss you know I see in Paul's writings of this will build to those young talk about falling away saying all the apostles and one is no anticipating this time that was.

Not too far away where the safest gone severe but Jude is likely on the opposite page.

If you're going to use those quotes from Paul. You then you have to say that Paul has missed what you Jude is saying that the faith is once for all handed down to them for all time.

So I see an issue with this idea that the other searches restored. Know that Dan and also I don't see a connection between lost authority and lost doctrine know that that seems kind of like as you look at a priest, a priest, oppositional argumentation, you know, they insist based on Slater's teachings that he says you know we see description doctrine supposedly and it was because they lost disrespect party but we don't really see people worried about this priesthood authority being lost supposedly in the early church.

You think that if there is this priesthood authority. It was so central so important that the need apostles you think there'd be some Christian author that would be completely distraught. He will be writing about. We have no more apostles you know all is lost, all is lost. We see them appealing to the Scriptures enough we see in Scripture itself that Paul gives directions for how to replace elders and deacons ending on their some that there was a the bishops are distinct from elders that basically bishops elders, deacons, these are the ones that they were the requirements the qualifications to replace them with new bishops office deacons. We don't see anything like that for apostles and prophets. We don't say we don't see a list of requirements so called new prophets and apostles are to replace them.

So the ideas that we give instructions for how the church is to be continued throughout time � that's what the letters were about. And so since he didn't direct them on how to call the apostles and prophets seems to me that same pretty clearly that is not a duck that's not office perpetual. So there's a lot of issues I think what the LDS position on know the restoration and complete apostasy from every church so now what else would you have any comments about that. I think you're correct or data add to actually so limits that if you know so I don't lose my train of thought here. So the first thing I want to comment on basically said was you brought up the topic of apostolic succession and met Latter Day Saints can adopt that as a is an important thing that needs to happen within the church and in you know there is an argument to be made from the book of acts that you know David replaced Judas with Matthias.

There was a process that they did to do that. And so, but you don't then you have the apostle Paul is also an apostle and argue semi-non-possible so you you you don't you see another apostle named but you don't see another succession moment happening right where he is brought into the quorum of the 12, so to speak, which Latter Day Saints can read back onto the New Testament. So there's that. But what I want to say about that really is that your apostolic succession. That's a big argument that comes in the play. Once you have kind of a split between East and West. In Christianity you have the Eastern orthodoxy of the Roman Catholics and you have, you know the arguments for Peter being the first pope know that the Bishop of Rome.

The city of Rome being preeminent, all of those kind of arguments that come about posts post schism and what's what's interesting about that is that there Latter Day Saints Cove adopt this idea write about apostolic succession happened to be there, where they get where they get that idea you know you can have this authority question that happens as a result of the Protestant Reformation right if you going to the reformers are going to then step outside, which they initially wanted to do. They wanted to reform the church is are going to step outside and actually start forming churches and bodies of unbelievers that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and not in communion with them. Then you have a question of authority which Latter Day Saints like to kind of pounce on that and and make use of that in there argumentation against Protestants.

You don't have authority. Even the sub.

John Wesley was Thomas's brother's name.

He has a famous quote for Latter Day Saints like to use about you know somebody laid hands on somebody than he laid hands on him or someone like that right Latter Day Saints like to use that quote because like Stephen the even the Protestant reformers could recognize that there was an authority history going on so they did their basically though there there adopting like I said there adopting this idea of the importance of apostolic succession from Roman Catholicism, and so if you if you going to do that. You just need to recognize the the historical context in which Latter Day Saints history and doctrine ends and authority sits right and sits right in right squarely in the middle of trying to answer that question, what would you do about authority and within this Protestant Reformation is now several hundred years old so that's that's 1.1. The medic then what the other thing I wanted to say is that one of the arguments that Latter Day Saints make for Joseph Smith. Specifically, being a prophet is that she addresses issues and questions that were burning in his day among the Christian world) and then America. Alexander Campbell calls this out in his critique of the book of Mormon that he answered every question that was debated on the American frontier among Christians, and so Latter Day Saints will point then say see that's the reason why we needed a modern profit. That's why Joseph Smith was called because you need someone to address those issues.

You need someone to address the questions that are right in front of people and in the use that as evidence for Smith's calling and authority so because he answers the questions, therefore, is a prophet. Okay, what I would say that is the early church fathers were doing the same thing right. They were attempting to answer the questions that came up from groups of Greek philosophers groups of people who were who were mixing Greek philosophy and Christian teachings like the Gnostics, so there answering questions that are burning in their day and they're doing them in and then kinda they're doing and kind of innovative ways. So if that makes Joseph Smith the Prophet Ben, what do you say about the early church fathers Latter Day Saints agree with Christians Ruth evangelicals and Protestants. The early church fathers are not inspired. They're not writing Scripture in their writings, but there doing some very some very similar things to what Joseph Smith is doing and use that argumentative to say that he was a prophet so that's why I would say that's not a very strong argument. Yeah that they would probably answer that by saying well goes back to the denomination argument you know nobody could really agree on Everything That's I Need a Prophet to Settle Everything in a Carmines Element of like a Joke Where You Know As Engineers and Machinists, Mechanics, and How Young the Problem Where He Got 50 Different Standards of Measurement and You Know Tooling Numbering and I Respect That. So It's a Solution Well and Bent the 50s System of Measurement and Tooling Number so What Adjustment That Is like You Didn't Pick Which One of Them Is Right While You're All Wrong. The Right Way MS That Way. I Admitted That I've Made That Arguments Latter Day Saints before I Said Okay You Say You Need Profit You Need Someone to Be the Authority to Say Okay These Are the Different Options. This Is the One That's True Right and You You Revere Joseph Smith for Doing That. And yet He at the Same Time You Try to Pillory Constantine for Calling a Counsel Any Size at All. I Shouldn't Do That. He Didn't Have the Authority to Do That Even Though the Authority Say There Hears These Different Options. This Was True. We Didn't Say That It Be That the Council Voted, but the Council Bishops Voted, but You See I'm Saying Right like on the One Hand You Want to Argue the That That the Doing the Same. This Is the True One Gives Joseph Smith Some Special Status but You Want. You Also Argue That Constantine of the Bishop Should've Come Together to Try to Do That Doesn't Make Sense Right so Hacky Going Back to the Title of the. The.

The Topic Wanted to Ask You, so Maybe Go Back to the First Section That so Are the First Point of This Article Makes You Know That They Do Not Accept Decreased Formation Supposed New Testament Christianity.

Maybe Just to Be Clear so Does Not Accepting Decreased Confessions of Formation to Test Christianity. Does That Automatically Makes the LDS Church, Not Christian by by Our Measures What You Think That since I Struggle with That Question Because This Is a Point I Was Going Make Earlier but Didn't. But I'll Make It Now Latter Day Saints When When You Ask Them in Our When the Question Comes up RRR Mormon so I Latter Day Saints Christian, I Did. It's It It's a Hard Issue Its Identity Issue. I Have Totally Been There Talked Often about How I Wrote an Email to My Mother-In-Law Pre-Easter That the First Easter That We Were Spent Together before You Write before Angela and I Got Married and I I Argued My Case That I Am a Christian, and We Can Celebrate Easter and Worship Jesus Christ and Then and Enjoy the Joy and the Hope of the Resurrection Together so I Can I Get Where Latter Day Saints Come from with This, but the Question Isn't Is a Church Christian End and I Know That That Argument Comes up A Lot) the Rights to Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy Protestants of Various Forms of Protestantism Seventh-Day Adventist That I Can Think Yes the Third, the Question Can Come up, Whether a Church's Teachings Fall within the Broader Set of Orthodox Christian Belief Right Which Would Include the Seven Ecumenical Councils and Reason I Can Think That Question Can Come up with This This Essay Is Asking a Different Question.

This Essay Is Asking Our Mormons Christian Writer and That's an Individual Matter, and I Think Latter Day Saints Would Agree with That If They Believe the Book of Mormon. Have You Experienced That Mighty Change of Heart Rate Is a Set in Elma Five. So That's That's the Hard Issue. Are You Individually.

Christian Are You Individually Born Again. Have You Been Born of God. Have You Been Born from above and so I Do Have Sympathies for Latter Day Saints Who Feel This Is a Hard Issue. What I Would Say Let Those Latter Day Saints That Was Stop Looking at Is Evidence List of Looking at It As a Church Issue Right Because a Church Doesn't Make Someone a Christian Right Absolutely Correct Theology, Biblical Theology Doesn't Make Someone a Christian. Okay, What Makes Someone a Christian Is Whether or Not They Been Born Again and so That's What I Would Say There You Wanted Jump in There with Anything.

Matthew before I Move on to Something Else As Good 20 Minutes. I Normally Thought about the Way They Worded It Is the First Point Says Latter Day Saints Do Not Accept Decreased Confessions Formations and so Does the Third Point Is Latter Day Saints Do Not Attend the Second Line Appeals to the Church Itself. The Trick Is Slightly since Does Not Send Historical and Traditional Christianity, so It's Almost like the First Bird Points Are Talking about What Latter Day Saints the People Do or Do Not Believe the Second Part Is Talk about the Organization Itself. Sad Really Picked up on That Distinction. That's Interesting.

I'm Glad You Brought That up yet Agree out Agree on the Point That Being Part of a Church for the Church You Want to Do Is Not Unlikely You Christian. I Think in the End, You Would Also Agree That That Just Having the Right Set of Ideas or Knowledge or You Know Understanding of the Bible Alone Is Not Enough, We Are Saying Stop Heart but Same Time. For Those Who Do Have at Your They Should and Will You Know Either except True Renal Essential Doctrines or Not, Reject and Operate. So That's Why We're at Work, We Focus so Much on Doctrine Because Someone Continues to Reject an Essential Truth of Christianity That Is Kind of like an Outward Expression of You Know Where Their Heart Is, You Know, Aggressors, and Dogma Profits and Oppressive Judge in by the Fruits Well� I Will Read You Good Things You Charity We Help You, but I Say Yes. Great. But It's Not Just You Know How Nice the Money Are the People Chose a Christian You Know Part of What You Teach and Believe Is Also a Fruit You Know of Your Salvation.

So If You're Teaching a False Doctrine That That's Essential You Know That Goes against Essentials That's That's Also the Demonstration Once Fruit so Yeah Give Any Comments on That Guy Grew through Sam Eric. I Do Think the Doctrine Is Important. I Hope Nobody Took from What I Said about It Being a Hard Issue. The Document Is an Important I Think You Made a Really Good Point about If You're Someone Continues to Reject the Doctrines of the Christian Faith, That It Is a Reflection of Where Their Heart Is Another Point I Would like to Make on This Because of the Wording Here Word Where Kinda Shifts to the LDS Church Being a Christian Organization Versus an Individual Matter. What Beliefs Are so Latter Day Saints If If You Take Their Doctrine of Exclusive Priesthood Authority Really Seriously. They Do Not Believe That Christians Are Christians Because They Have Not Been Baptized or Had or Received.

The Other Ordinances by Proper Priesthood Authority As Far As I Know That Is Still the Teaching of the LDS Church so Know It's It's Just Kind of Interesting That There's This Essay Asking the Question, Our Mormons, Christian but You Know the Reality of Latter Day Saints Teaching Is That You and Me.

Matthew and Other Christians. We Know Every Other Christian Who's Not a Mormon by Their Doctrine, Are Not Saved, and Those of That's Why They Do Vicarious Ordinances for the Dead and the Temple in the Temples Because Everyone Has To Receive Those Ordinances by Proper Priesthood Authority in Order to Be According to Latter Day Saints Teaching Part of the Church of the Lamb Right the Georgia Firstborn so Wanted to Make That Point Because No There. They Also Have the Teaching of of Three Different Levels of Heaven, and There Are People Who Will Be Relegated to What's Called the Terrestrial Kingdom Is This Is Not the Highest Level of Heaven Where Where God the Father Resides in so That the People in the Terrestrial Kingdom They Will Have the Presence of the Father and so They're Not There Not Fully Christian Right There Either. People Who Did Not Receive the Ordinances They Were Blinded by the Craftiness of Man Assessed LDS Scripture Says Were There People Who Were Not Valiant in Their Testimony of Jesus Christ. So You Know Latter Day Saints. While They While I Get That If the Others of Theirs As Hard As You Business Identity Issue Going on Where They Want to Be Seen As Christian. They Also Place Everyone Else outside of What Their Idea of Truly Christian Is so Whereas You Know the Restoration Nest Group and and Tradition. I Belong to Would Say Were Not the Only Christians Were Christians Only Latter Day Saints Say, in Effect, We Are the Only Questions and You Have To Accept Ordinances to Be 12 Quite a Big Difference There. And I'm Losing My Train of Thought There Was Something Else I Want to Touch on but Jump in Here and I'll Try to Try to Find What I Was Thinking of.

I Would Say That I Think Most of This. We Talked to, They Would Say That Anyone Who Believes in Jesus Christian.

I Think They Kind of Have To Hold That Position Because like You're Saying Otherwise. If You Start Putting like Doctrinal Stipulation Leads to All of Jesus. Then Then They Have To Start Admitting Okay Well Yeah Maybe Dispersed. Dr. Smith Was a Christian and Then We Have To Start Asking Will Who Has the Authority to Claim What You Know What Determines What You Know What Is Dr. Christian. Dr. What Is Not. As Such, Was Not.

And You Know Once We Start Going on That Road.

Then He Started to Go to the Bible and See Certain Truths Stick Disclaimed by Himself the Owner That It Says about Itself Is Only One God Is Not before and after in like Him and so so You Think They Would Say It Most Asked Say That Anyone He Just Leaves Jesus Can Be Christian, but like You Said yet You Root You Cannot Inherit Eternal Life without Ordinances, without Dale Just Ordinances in Our Baptisms Is Still Listed in Their Doctrine Covenants That Baptism by Someone Who Does Not Have This Authority Is Critical. Denmark and so It Does Nothing for Us. Even Roman Catholics Today in All Post-Vatican II Would Actually Say That We Are Separated Brethren" of Our Batches Back to Do Town You Know Is Not Done by a Roman Catholic Priest. The Fact That Is Done in the Trinitarian Formula by One Who Believes in Christ That Counts Is Good Enough for Them. So It's Kind of Interesting That the Roman Catholic Church Is More Accepting of Non-Catholics As Christians You Know in Terms of the Efficacy of Their Baptism Than You Know and Then Adele District Still Hasn't Changed One That I Think Even Committee of Christ Which Is Reorganized District. I Think Even They Might Accept. I Think We Actually Know I'm Thinking about the Do They Do Accept Baptisms from Other Faith Traditions As Valid.

So Whether You're Latter Day Saints or Protestant. If You Wanted to Join Christ If You're Ready Baptized by One of Them. Then Baptized Again Just That I Think That I'm Glad You Went There Because That's the Sky Where I Was I Was Leaving She Was This This Idea That Not Often. When This Question Comes up Latter Day Saints Will Will Pull the Dictionary Definition of Christian Someone Who Believes and Is a Follower of Jesus Christ Right and You Know, Can It Be That Simple. Sure, It Can about like You Were Saying There Are Orthodox Teachings of the Christian Faith That Flow from Scripture. And When You Reject Those It Shows Your Heart and It Also Shows That You Are Not Willing to Align with with Biblical Teaching. So Yeah so There's a Side There's This Idea of You Know That the Dictionary Definition of Christian and like I Said Earlier It's Really It's Hard Issue. I Did and Born-Again and and That Will Be Evident in Your Life. But Again You like You Were Saying Latter Day Saints Was Ellen Anybody Who Believes in Jesus Christ. The Christian, but There Will Be Recording Sylvia's Teaching There Will Be People Who Believe in Jesus Christ, Who Are Only Judged Worthy of the Terrestrial Kingdom Rather Than the Celestial Kingdom Because They Didn't Accept the Ordinances or Because They Weren't Valiant in the Testimony of Jesus, Which Obviously Are Some Said Has To Do with Obedience by so They Were Fully Obedient. So so When You Have Here Is When You Really Start to, As You Were Saying Get down to Brass Tacks and Ask Questions about Doctrine and Teaching Them What You Have Here Is Is an LDS View of Heaven Where Someone Who Has Believed in Jesus Has Not Had Their Sins Fully Forgiven and Does Not Have Peace with God Fully Living with the Father Because They Were Not Obedient Enough and so It's a Different When You Really Get into Talking about the Doctrine You You You Start to Realize It's a Different Gospel Than What Is Taught in the Bible and so What I Would Say Again Is That the Church Does Not Save You a Church Does Not Make You a Christian Being a Member of Any Church Doesn't Make You a Christian Being Born-Again Does According to the Bible so That I Think I'm Done on That Negative Points and and and I Was I Would Be Curious to Know How Many LDS with Read This Line Where It Says Quote One Who Sincerely Loves Worship Almost Christ Should Be Free to Claim His or Her Understanding of the Doctrine.

According to the Dictates of His or Her Conscience without Being Branded Is Not Christian." I Would Be Curious to Know If They Would Include the Ordinances of the Church As Part of Following Christ Sister You Know or If It Just Means Following Christ. To the Best of Your Knowledge, or to the Best Conscience That I Don't to Be Extended to Kenna Talk to Them Is You That He Met up Yeah and Ends No Good Baby Would They Be Willing to Go so Far As to Say You Know As Long As You Sincerely Believe in Jesus Christ, You're Free to Believe Whatever You Want.

According to the Dictates of Their Own Conscience. Is That Really What Latter Day Saints Believe in Another Article of Faith Says That but As It Is That More of a Defense or Is That an Opportunity for Latter Day Saints to Believe Anything They Want.

I Don't Think It's True That Latter Day Saints Can Believe Anything That They Want. Maybe It Is the Devil, I Can't Teach Anything That They Want but Is It Necessary to Believe the Truth about the Nature of God That the Lectures on Faith Which Were Part Which Were the Doctrine Part of the Doctrine and Covenants.

They Do Say That It's Important to Understand the True Nature of God and and As a Latter-Day St. I Would've Argued That the Latter Day Saints Understanding of God Is an Embodied Exalted Man Perfected and Glorified Is a Really Important Doctrine That I Think Most Latter Day Saints Would Argue That It Is a Really Important Doctrine See Them Arguing All the Time That That and Even in This Essay Right That It's It's Really Important Understand That. Have a True Understanding of the Nature of the Godhead Believe That They Don't Believe That You Are. I Can or Any Other Latter-Day Skinny Latter Day Saints Can Believe Whatever They Want about the Godhead. They Teach Their Doctrine Is Important so That It Seems a Little a Little Bit Disingenuous to Me to Try to Suggest That the Christian Should Not Take a Firm Stand on Doctrine but Latter Day Saints Can Yeah Yeah It's It's Yeah and It's You Talked about the Great Apostasy by Talmage in That Source and As Well As Just so Basically Referred to the Trinity Is like a False God Just Totally Different God Just Said That Three and One Would Make a Great Start or a Giant so I Mean I Don't Think I Don't Know How You Could Say That You Know and and Also in the Wentworth D. Gaston Last If Non-Latter Day Saints Would Be Damned.

And He Said Yes so Maybe As You Change over Time Know Where a Tenant Universalist, I Don't Know but There Were More Hard-Line Lines Drawn in the Sand, Saying That If You Worship This God's Trinity That You're Worshiping a Different God and so You Know, and in Going Begin Clay Recently in the 90s Enough Said That All Relatively Recently Said That You Know That There Is Some There Is Some Accuracy to Affect LDS Worship a Different Jesus Than the Historic Christian so but It Seems More and More Now Let out a Sale Say That We Just Have Different Views of the Same God Sent Jesus, so I Don't Get to Let Moshe Marshall Gone the Next Section. Yeah, I Started to Read a Forgotten Okay Sure. However, Unlike Jesus When He Sounded Really National Born and Raised in the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, Commonly Referred to As the Moment All of Us Have Left That Religion Have Been Drawn to Faith in Jesus Christ As Our Podcast Brightness Six, John 19 the True Light Which Gives Light to Everyone You Found Life beyond Mormonism Brighter Than We Were Told in the Light, We Have Is Not Our Own Comes to Us from without.

This Is to Share Our Journeys of Faith God Has Done in Going Us to His Son and Everything in between That You Found This and Hope You Stick around.

So Latter Day Saints Believe in an Open Canon. The Third Justification Argued to Label Latter Day Saints's Non-Christian Has To Do with Their Belief in an Open, Scriptural Canon for Those Making This Argument to Be a Christian Means to Assent to the Principle of Sola Scrip Torah to the Self-Sufficient Self-Sufficiency of the Bible, but to Claim That the Bible Is the Sole and Final Word of God.

More Specifically, the Final Written Word of God Is to Claim More for the Bible Than It Claims for Itself. Nowhere Does the Bible Proclaim That All Revelations from God Would Be Gathered into a Single Volume to Be Forever Closed and That No Further Scriptural Revelation Could Be Received.

Moreover, Not All Christian Churches Are Certain That Christianity Must Be Defined by Commitment to a Closed Canon Truth. The Argument for Exclusion by Close Canon Appears to Be Used Selectively to Exclude Latter Day Saints from Being Called Christian.

No Branch of Christianity Limits Itself Entirely to the Biblical Text and Making Doctrinal Decisions in Applying Biblical Principles. Roman Catholics, for Example Turn to Church Tradition and the Magisterium Meeting Teachers, Including Popes and Councils for Answers. Protestants, Particularly Particularly Evangelicals Turn to Linguists and Scripture Scholars for Their Answers As Well As to Post New Testament Church Councils and Creeds. For Many Christians These Councils and Creeds Are Every Bit As Canonical As the Bible Itself to Establish Doctrine and to Understand the Biblical Text. Latter Day Saints Turned to Living Prophets into Additional Books of Scripture, the Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants in Pearl of Great Price, Together with the Old and New Testaments. The Book of Mormon Supports an Unequivocal Testimony of Jesus Christ. One Passage Says That the Book of Mormon Shall Establish the Truth of the Bible and Shall Make Known to All Kindreds, Tongues, and People That the Lamb of God Is the Son of the Eternal Father and the Savior of the World and That All Men Must Come unto Him When They Cannot Be Saved in Its More Than 6000 Versus the Book of Mormon Refers to Jesus Christ, Almost 4000 Times, and by over 100 Different Names Jehovah Immanuel Holy Messiah Lamb of God, the Dimmer of Israel, and so on. The Book of Mormon Is Indeed Another Testament of Jesus Christ As Its Title Page Proclaims Matthew Your Thoughts on the Section so I Wouldn't Say That Having an Open Canon in and of Itself Automatically Are Believing That There's an Open Can Automatically Mix, Not a Christian or Church Non-Christian Church so I Do Know That It Does Appeal to A Lot Of Things with Roman Catholics, so I Know We Wouldn't Really Use an Appeal to Authority to Say That What Was Said Is I Just Have To Believe It Because You Believe It That You're Not Part of Church, They Know so We Would We Would Use Those Kind of Appeals to Authority, I Would Say but in Terms of the Creeds and Councils That Goes Back to the First Point They Brought up in This Article Is Not the It's Not That Acceptance Are Rejected Acceptance or Rejecting of Creeds and Councils in and of Itself Outdated but Yes I Christianity, but Are You Rejecting Essential Truths That Are Contained in Those Creeds and Councils and No Create No Counselor Stays Fallible, Which Is Something I Think Orthodox and Roman Catholics Would Say They Would Say That No One God's Promise to Give the Holy Spirit to the Church and the Gift of Infallibility. Roman Catholics the Outcome Extended to the Pope Also Not Seen Councils, but They Both Agree That and Councils You Know It When the Church Comes Together and They Come up with a Solution That's to Be of Nights Agreed upon That Is to Be Believed That Process Are Likely the Same Thing You Know We Typically Believe That Councils Creeds Can Be Fallible and They Are Not Infallible in and of Themselves, so They're Only True in This Bar and Is Much As They Agree with the Scripture Teaches and so That's Why A Lot within the Reformed Tradition. We Disagree with. We We Would Agree with the Pronouncements of the First Six Ecumenical Councils Those of the First Snow I Councils Are in Our Church History. Those Councils, but the Seventh Medical Council, Which Is the Second Council of Nicaea Which Was in C Year 787.

Many of Us Would Disagree with That Because Part of One of His Pronouncements Was That It Reinstated This Use of Icons and Worship. And It's Not Just Is Not Just Having Images of Jesus and the Church. That Was the Issue. It's like They Would Actually There Is a There Is a Viewed Icons Work Have a Window and and so like by Gazing upon Image Deck to Get Transport You and Give You Just a Means of Grace for God to Actually Pour out Grace through the Icons. The Images to the Believer and so Even If I Think You and A Lot Of A Lot Of Confessional Lutherans Who Do Used Images of Jesus You Know in Their Churches. They Would Disagree with A Lot Of This Because They Don't See Them As Means of Grace to See Them Is like You Know Teaching Tools You Know Something to Help You in the Moody Worshipful Mood, but They Themselves Are Not Disgraced. So That's One Counsel to Go across Disagree Us so We Don't Just Because the Council Doesn't Make It Automatically Authoritative but Whether Lines of Scripture. And That's When We Reject Them Because We Don't Believe That Is Lighting up the Scripture so on. Any Thoughts on That or Any Thing They Would Add to That, Yeah, Yeah, I Think That Is Your When You Talk about There with with Icons and Then the Seventh Ecumenical Council on the Aspect of That That That Not All Christians Would Agree with. I Think That's True in It and It Definitely Makes Sense. I Think That This Deftly More May Spend Part of Historical Christianity. You Know You Had the Iconoclasts and You Have Any Later on That That Same Kind of Desire Not to Make Use of Icons You Find.

Also, the Reformation in the Reformed Tradition so That's That's Good to Acknowledge That Night, and I Also like Least Weight.

The Way You Worded That You Know That Is Not the Rejection or Acceptance of of the Creeds That Makes One a Christian or Not Christian or a Church Christian and Not Christian It's the Rejection of Fundamental Truths That Are Biblical Truths That Are Explained within the within the Creeds so Just Kind Thoughts on This. Overall's Overall Thoughts on the Section Member Having a Conversation with with One of My Professors and Seminary over Lunch One Day and He Was Kind of Questioning Me about the Fact That I Had Been a Latter Day Saints and He Had Asked Me Some Questions Related to This Point Here That of the Estimating Alike Are Do You Ever Asked Me Did I Ever Think That Latter Day Saints Would Be Accepted As As Part of the Christian Fold and I My Answer Was along the Lines of Whether There Would Be A Lot That They Would Have To Give up You and and He Was like Yeah I Think I Think You're Right.

If You If You Have Additional Scripture You Not Going to Be Viewed As Part of the Christian Fold and the Reason for That Isn't Because You Have Additional Scripture. I Think You Know for Me and Then You Can Tell Me What You Agree.

Matthew, but Acting Some of Christians Would Agree to like If God Decided to Give More Scripture. And It Was Clear That She Had.

I Know I Wouldn't Be Just Prone to Rejected Just Because Out Of Hand. There Can Be Any New Scripture, God Can't Speak Anymore. I Don't Think You I Don't Believe That That the Way I Would Put It Is. The Question Is and You Know, Can God or Could God Speak, of Course, He Could Question Is Has He Spoken within the Latter Day Saints Faith Tradition and I Think There Are Lots of Reasons to Believe That He Is Not and Probably Most Important among Those Is the Inconsistency That You Find in Latter Day Saints Teaching in Scranton and Scripture with What You Find in in the Bible and I Find It Interesting Because It's Almost like the Author of This Essay Knows That Knows That There's a Big Gap between What You Find in the Book of Mormon and the Bible and What You Find in the Doctrine and Covenants in Pearl of Great Price Because the End of the Second Second Paragraph at End of the Second Paragraph Says to Establish Doctrine and Understand the Biblical Text.

Latter Day Saints Turned to Living Prophets into Additional Books of Scripture, the Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Broker Price and That the Beginning of the Next Paragraph They Shave off Two Thirds of Their Cannon and Set the Book of Mormon Itself Only Aside. The Bible, Which I Think Is Interesting in It and I Think It Points out That the Author Probably Author or Authors Probably Understands That There's This Big Gap That Once You Start Getting into the Document Covenants Pearl of Great Price You Get into the Really Unique Doctrine of Mormonism and of Joseph Smith That Definitely Stands outside of the Decrease in Confessions Yeah Yeah That's a Great Point of That's Kinda What It Was or It's Quite Possible That You It's like There Are A Few Things in the Form That Are Very Distinctive. It Gives a Very Hard Line against Those Who Act As Baptism, for Example. But You Know, Apart from That It's A Lot Of the Doctors Are Very Compatible with the Bible in Only One God. You Know God's Revealed His Father Son and Holy Ghost Not Doing Talk about the Father Having a Body so on the out Agreed That the Salicylates Dana Is a Good Thing Pointed out Things That Also. So like to Continue Announcing Earlier Too Eloquent at That.

This Is for Many Christians These Councils and Creeds Are Every Bit As Canonical Bible Self so Just to Make It Clear We Don't Think the Councils Are As Canonical As the Bible That There Subservient to Other Subordinates the Bible If They Support and Teach with the Bible Teaches Great Support If They Don't Then We Discussed That We Disagree about Such by No so That's regarding Her Discussion like This at the Technical Counsel for an Example of This. Also There's a Part to the Want Talk about That.

The First Paragraph about Scripture Saying It's the Self-Sufficiency of the Bible, Such As to Claim the Bible As the Sole and Final Word of God's Final Written Word of God Is to Claymore for the Bible and Spits out. So Actually Can Agree with That.

In a Sense Because There's Nothing That Says in Their There Will Be No More Books after This You Know and It's Kind of Also Similar to Looking like a Stone's gifts out of the prophecy there's no diversity pointed the says there are no more time.

the prophecy and essay and to meet. i would expended that's impossible to do because the bible is an inspired book of prophecy. so how could you have a book of prophecy.

this is a somewhat prophecy and honest if it were the very last sentence is this is normal and everything. i don't become hard to do that but but in terms like the sufficiency of the bible you know we turn a lot a lot of times the psychics at 6017 w. is all scripture is god breathed a vicious history that i guess i just your minor listeners and if they want a more in-depth discussion on this. we have our series about scripture.

so second timothy three. are you sorry james so 16 and 17 all scripture is given by inspiration of god, or is god breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for perfect correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of god may be perfect early furnished to all good works and there is the there's a verb there that excited so. since, conjugation of the verb and basically means to be like completed to be to have nothing lacking sources of the man of god will be complete and furnished under good works, so scripture is sufficient sunset. you know if we can be completely out completed in terms of what we need to know for life and happiness to know how to please god, what is there that we need to know that's not it. scripture united states is a very short can a condensed version of our discussion scripture side rickman going to that series.

yeah, i think. i think scripture itself does say that it's insufficient what we need to know about god and no eternal life to know and to return to god and the gospel is taught there. so to say that it's not sufficient to go against what scripture says itself so yes it's kind like how you phrase the question of the phrase in such a way as well. the bible is, there will be many more by rising leader phrase in such a sense, we need to phrase it. discussion terms of is the bible lacking anything that eat and i don't think it is that there really good points. i'm glad you clarified what we mean by the sufficiency of scripture because i think that's that's often times misunderstood by latter day saints and then you see the kind of firearm and to say that that that was set up in the first paragraph is a strawman argument and you know it's it's unfortunate that in an essay that's meant to argue that latter day saints are questions that you have such strawman arguments included in in misrepresenting what what christians actually believe about the bible and the sufficiency of the bible so i want to touch on a couple of things.

first, this point is in the second paragraph.

i believe the section shouldn't get second paragraph. so sorry about the various authorities that different christians my turn to roman catholics. my turn to example for sample tradition, magisterium figure that example protestants, they say, particularly evangelicals trying to linguists and scripture scholars for their answers as well as the proposed adjustment church councils and creeds so that point there and then it kind of equates the roman catholic view tradition magisterium with the protestant view of authority. linguists in scripture with mormons looking to profits by an additional book of scripture because like harry reid you all do this kind of thing we do this kind of thing, false equivalency that's going on here what i want to say about what is says there about protestants, particularly evangelicals turned linguists and scripture scholars for their answers yes true and the reason for that is because we want to understand what scripture says right we take seriously the idea that scripture was inspired to an breathed out by god through the original authors and in the original languages so when we look to scholars and linguists understand what the original languages say that it's because we take that seriously is because we believe that god spoke through prophets and apostles who wrote and that as they wrote those original languages. that was god's word breathed out by god.

so what i would ask a latter-day st. considering think about with regards to that statement is this. if it's illegitimate to look to linguists and scripture scholars to understand what scripture says and and and you do see latter-day saints. sometimes deride christians for looking at commentaries. for example, because had no commentaries. most of the profit is, the argument that's made if it's if it's illegitimate to look to linguists and scripture scholars then why does the lds church put why did the lds church put from 1981 on 1979, resigned when the change away, but the footnotes with for the new testament with the greek footnotes that in greek certain words min. this or the greek suggest this instead of the way this was translated in them in the kjv why they have those footnotes there if that is not an aid to understanding god's word and the other point i want to make is this, and i noted earlier that the question isn't, can daughter could god speak.

the question really is. has god spoken and and i was just talking about how we take we as christians take us seriously that god spoke to the authors of the bible and through the authors of the bible and so when we look to understand what the meaning of the passage was to the original readers or original hearers by looking to scholarly avenues to understand that linguistically, culturally, etc. we do that is because we take those things seriously. many men believe that god spoke and so what i said earlier that i think there's many reasons to believe that god hasn't spoken within the latter-day st. tradition, at least not to give new scripture. i'd like to give an example in in the book of mormon. there is a character named nephi and he is said to be an ancient prophet who wrote upon plates and his writings were contained on the place.

supposedly, the joseph smith received from the angel moron i and translated by the gift and power of god and nephi is presented as writing in chapter 29 of his second book, which is supposed to have taken place around 559 to 545 bc nephi supposedly rights but thus saith the lord god, o fools, they shall have the bible know he's responding to what is said in verse three, which is which doesn't because my words shall henceforth many of the gentiles shall say a bible of bible we have got a bible and there cannot be any more bible, but thus saith the lord god going on.

verse 40 fools. they saw the bible and shall proceed forth from the jews managing covenant people and what think they the jews for the bible which they received from them knew what to the gentiles mean do they remember the travails of the laborers in the pains of the jews in their diligence sense to me in bringing forth salvation unto the gentiles, so nephi's is presented as writing this this whole argument about the gentiles and here she's pacifically talking about gentiles upon the american continent is says shown in context of the previous chapters and that he's is apparently seeing them envision saying a bible, a bible we already got a bible and the reason we christians take seriously and study the bible series is because the historical record that the writers really did exist in a specific historical and cultural contexts that each of them had and they wrote into that specific historical and cultural context. nephi there's there's zero evidence that nephi ever existed.

the only evidence we have for the book of mormon is that joseph smith published the book of mormon in 1830 in english, there's nothing else. no other document. no other manuscript. no other plates that have been ever found that contain the writings of nephi and so you have nephi a character in the book of mormon talking about a context that is joseph smith's context where she purported to bring forth a new bible. the newspapers around palmyra pilloried him for bringing forth a new goal bible you can look up the historical records. all of it's all in the newspapers around palmyra and you have joseph smith reacting to and the voice of nephi's own historical context where people are saying a bible bible reverted out of my legal name in the bible and i remember reading that passage on my mission in the last day of my mission. i talked about how no seeing as i read through the new testament. the report of the new testament and in my last. my mission and saw how much of the new testament was lifted from the bible or how much of love. the new testament was lifted and inserted into the book of mormon in the whole narrative of alum of the younger parallels paul the apostle right and so then this this passage. i remember sitting on my bed reading it one day and it hit me in such a different way than it had before where i just kind of realized joseph smith is writing his own context here.

you know, gentiles thing a bible bible so i wanted to bring that up because like i said earlier there. there are lots of reasons to believe that god hasn't spoken within the latter-day st. faith tradition and that's just one of them that that was kind of became clear to me and how to juxtapose that against my own studies of the bible as i as i came out of the lds faith and i wanted to know okay i don't believe i can trust the book of mormon and the document covenants and the broker price anymore. can i trust the bible, and i know that there are critical scholars who write skeptical of the bible and i will and i wanted understand what their arguments work and the amazing thing.

the magnificent thing to me, all to the glory of god is that there are there's a wealth of evidence.

manuscript evidence for the bible that we can trace back through the centuries and that's in the greek is in the aramaic is in the hebrew and then we have the dead sea scrolls, which in many ways. confirm that the transmission of the bible by faithful people over the centuries. in a faithful way and so i found that there was just so much more reason to put my faith and trust in the reliability of god's word in the bible than there was and for the latter-day st. additional canon and amen thanks for sharing. i was great, thank you for sharing your experiences doing. i appreciate that that you made a case for the reliability of the bible versus no the other books, and now this canons and we also planning a drinking episode we talk about the reliability of the new testament, so will will go more in depth on that hopefully shut out to chase roscoe for suggesting we do that yet exactly so she read the conclusion are at conclusion converts across the world continue to join the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in part because of its doctrinal and spiritual distinctiveness.

distinctiveness flows from the knowledge restored to this earth together with the power of the holy ghost present in the church because of restored priesthood authority keys ordinances in the fullness of the gospel of jesus christ. the fruits of the restored gospel are evident in the lives of its faithful members.

all members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints have no desire to compromise distinctiveness of restored church of jesus christ may wish to work together with other christians and people of all faiths to recognize and remedy many of the moral and family issues faced by society.

the christian conversation is richer for what the d since bring to the table.

there is no good reason for christian faiths to ostracize each other when there has never been more urgent need for unity in proclaiming the divinity and teaching of jesus christ. one thought i had.

there was was like we talked about earlier wanted they want to include included table, i forgot that's like literally a phrase it's in the conclusion they should. they decide whether chris, conversation is richer for what the ultimate latter-day saints bring to the table so that i want to be literally at the creek. the table christians sleeping but this concluding section ball couple of thoughts. one is i don't know that it's still accurate to make the claim that i guess as i could claim the converts across the world continue to join the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, but it is certainly not growing at the rate that it once was.

with regards to commerce was listening back to richard bushman's left stone rolling biography of joe smith earlier today in preparation for a nap so they were going to do on mormon book reviews with stephen heidegger and i was struck by one reference that richard bushman made to a letter that brigham young wrote to joseph smith about the converts. i believe it was me, i believe, is that brigham young was in england at the time. i know he was one of the first missionaries to england, but i think he was writing from there back to joseph smith about the english converts and you know maybe made reference to the fact that they were not from the upper crust of society which kind of is-common knowledge with regards to the british converts to the lds faith that was. it was a period of immigration and any opportunity that the people saw for a better way of life where they could come to america and maybe get a parcel of land and and make their own way. i think people were jumping at it so members, commenting on on the fact that these were not the upper crust of british society and that he specifically said that you know that they're not particularly taking taken to reason that testimony is enough for them and i think that's an interesting statement is is is similar to what's being said here about know the power of the holy ghost present in the church and restored priesthood authority and seizing of these and for the testimony of these things is what what draws people care these converts that that that that paragraph is talking about but i think it is important to involve reason and logic in and what we believe and what we accept your people. people accept things for lots of reasons and people accept conflict many different contradictory teachings and doctrines when it comes to religion based on what they think is good what they feel is good and you know not all of that can be true, there's the love noncredit contradiction says that the not all that can be treated.

there's there's lots of teaching, but there is truth t. and so, in the second paragraph when they say that the christian conversation is richer for what latter day saints brings to the table. that to me sounds like an argument being made by latter-day st. staller wanting to make a contribution to the broader christian conversation and that's fine if that's what they want to do with their the scholarly life, but i would argue that with regards to t truth. if the latter-day st. full of letter since bring to the table is not truth, then that doesn't make the christian conversation richer if if i were to decide today that i had the truth and i started teaching some some pretty out there out there doctrines that are biblical in the way the smith did, i wouldn't be able to argue that my addition to the christian conversation makes it richer. you know if if it if it diminishes biblical truth you not you, not making the conversation richer. so what's on the net negative points. i was thinking i was reminded of this presentation just years are you showing have a slideshow, a lot of weird, no teachings of heresies frowned modern prosperity gospel preachers were eight creatures and he had once said that you know within each member of the trinity. so three persons. there are three parts not like how, where, made a body soul and spirit is what he was claiming while there made a body slows. see also only god's either nine is nine gods of the trinity and i legibly me away like like you said, does that make it richer position richer by having such good ideas. i think it adds to the conversation, but it's just going to skin a mud to muddy up the what the buybacks he teaches is going to put a lot of doubt into some people's minds that maybe struggle. you know, to kind of filter out what is true and what is false doctrine. another i mean i know personally. people who who asked me questions about the title.

what you think about this compulsive sleeping on on social media or something. they said them asking what i think in you know dell. dell thanked me for helping them extended because sometimes some people just aren't really into no parsing out all the logical arguments are the can we understand specifically what a christian say is so you know when we allow these kind of teachings to be propagated by the church and not have the be addressed. that's that's dangerous. and so it is not that we should shut them down and say you can't talk. he can't have voice but but we do need faithful christian scholarship in the end, creeds and confessions can help with that because they lay out what what is the bible teach.

so when someone comes along to something brand-new we can say well i mean no bible says this we know that because he's creeds and confessions teaching on a date expound upon what is argument top bible in a way that most dangerous things to be this for some to have no context for what the bible teaches you know no understanding of the original languages and then they just open the bible to say and i have read a few lines here and there and i can be very dangerous.

one thing i wanted to bring up to his is following that line, it says in the gospel topics essay says there is no good reason for crystal-based ostracize each other when there has never been more urgent need for unity proclaiming the divinity and teachings of jesus christ and first i want to make is owing back to talk before the district is very clear in the car is great that you're either part of the church of the lamb are part of the tricks that you know there's no third. there's no third party if you're not with christ you're against them, and so and that was kind of you that you know that james talmage and other lds leaders have taken you know brigham young was also very clear and some are cocky and is more doctrine agreed that know that sec. christianity is apostate christianity is false.

christianity is not the true church part of the devil. and so to say that you know we commission ostracize each other but it's like okay you know joe smith also sends history specifically knows that he knew for himself was that sufficient that the presbyterian presbyterianism is not true and so he specifically said he specifically ostracizing them from the christian faith, and so i know it just seems a little bit too low, but problematic to make statements like that on the beach and ostracize each other when they have been very many strong statements from lds scripture and lingers in OSTRACIZING other you know christian-based rs denominations missing a point to make is that so they're saying in the region ostracize each other when it has never been more urgent unity proclaiming the divinity and teachings of jesus christ go right there i can have an issue because the way to lds defined divinity is completely different from what historic christianity does. divinity is not being the offspring of a god, you know, or in its or is not attaining godhood through obedience to the cortical restored gospel of jesus christ. you know, divinity is something that you either have a dell jesus christ is god because he has eternally been god's unchanging lay god is infinitely god there's no he is god and that's something that we can never be so and so how can we have unity in proclaiming the divinity and teachings of christ, who don't agree on what needs to be divine and we don't agree on what jesus christ actually taught some not really quite sure how are supposed to have unity proclaiming these things and we don't even agree yeah all really good points.

thinking that matthew you really got me thinking on on one thing in particular so, going back to the conversation around you notice is the conversation richer.

you touched on that to write you said note false teaching certainly add to the conversation like like the that the teachings of benny hand but doesn't make it richer know doesn't think latter day saints should agree with that plan right because even within the latter-day st. faith tradition. you have people who claim to be prophets outside of the hierarchy of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints denver snuffer is one and you know the lds church held what's termed as the boise rescue to denounce denver snuffer in his teachings and his followers teachings acuity tv news installing city that the headline about that from thursday, june 18, 2015 was lds church holds special meeting to denounce false prophets, a high-ranking leader visited members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in idaho saturday evening in an unusual meeting this barking speculation discussion about the reason behind it.

elder downey jokes, a member of the church's quorum of the 12 apostles has specific message about false prophets when you follow false prophets. he said when you start toward apostasy. you are on the wrong side oaks told members of three state realty mistakes stand fast with the leadership of the church. oaks were joined by churches during richard turley. together they address critics of the church those claims from around the in the article. those claims have been made by denver snuffer, an attorney from standing so would latter day saints argue that denver snuffer's teachings and his drawing away of people from the lds church to his own movement when they argue that his his contributions make the conversation richer.

i don't think they would if they did they would live, held a special meeting there were in the sense one of their highest leaders out to idaho to denounce where where where his teachings were kind of really like taking spreading like wildfire. so just want to make that point because i think this is important for me point out areas where i think we can agree with latter day saints and if so, i think they would agree that someone within their camp like a denver snuffer doesn't make the conversation richer. but we would say joseph smith in his teachings and his followers teachings don't make the christian conversation richer and it's great. i also wanted to point out, it's interesting that you know we look at history and gerald and sandra tanner were, you know, there are just too little christians putting out their own stuff on their own printer so it city intertidal bookstore and they were never offered a place at the table anywhere to talk to lds leaders to talk to talk to lds gen. young they were completely kicked out of the table for decades and they still can ardently place her interlinking goes like, you know some conferences like sunstone that even then lds. we talk about this listed to be seen talking to him because the church had actively said don't don't speak to these people don't talk to them. don't read the material don't list. so it's weird that it's like you know being to being being the exclusive table and then wanting to have a seat at the table.

what else have Funds, a strange twist of history, yeah, see add another point to grab mind so yeah one thing want to bring up really really shortly. is that there's some truth to that saying that you know there are a lot of moral and family issues in society would have to deal with and it gives light brings us up a lot because you know a lot of his opponents of the debates the roman catholic still don't agree on a lot of things like abortion and exec others. other social issues. but my device is a nice time as audio amount of people who profess to be christian or older christian tradition as a kind of dwindles is more opposition grows against all against us for social issues asking to squish everybody together, you know i'll get me closer together but we still have to maintain artistic we can't forget that there are certain procedures that are essential can't know, we can capitulate on. we can't reject those just for the sake of being able say that we all stand together with one united voice.

i see i've seen several times as i look to new york state seen people with bumper stickers only sign saying you know god loves the unborn crate arose all alligator that first line 2nd line i don't think that's how they praying to mary as a solution for you know going against abortion so you know we we can we can't give up what we believe is important in the central gospel and what scripture teaches.

just to have unity on social issues that really the point of every exhausted but there is say about this essay, i think so, at least for now.

i haven't else add you just a final plea to our listeners. in particular, latter-day st. listeners again. church does not make you a christian having one of the percent correct theology and beliefs does not make you a christian not having not believing in additional scripture or the possibility of it doesn't make you a christian. what makes your christian is god changing your heart regenerating you and bring you to faith in his son jesus christ by a drawing that is done by the work of the holy spirit in your life and that's what makes your christian and when that when that takes place there is a willingness and the humility to say okay i i am like a child again right. jesus said you must become like a child and you know that the new testament refers to new christians as babes in christ. and so there is a sense that you need to be humble and learn as you as you feel drawn and are brought into christ, and that that sense of humility is important to have been willing to allow the holy spirit to conform your beliefs and your life to word of god. these are things that make one a christian.

not that whether you belong to a particular church or you hold a particular set of beliefs, we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. we'd love to hear from you. please visit the audi brightness podcast page on facebook. feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page. we would appreciate it if you give the page alike. we also have an outer brightness get on facebook can join and interact with us and others. as we discussed the podcast past episodes and suggestions for future etc. you can also send us an email outer brightness@gmail.com. Hope to hear from you soon.

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