Whati Is Mormonism ISN"T TRUE? Part 1

You're entering outer brightness. The zeitgeist of the moment is the idea that we are living in a post-truth world, the idea that objective facts either cannot be known or are less important than personal truth or feelings. Sometimes people refer to my truth or your truth to suggest that there is no objective reality, but rather only what each of us perceives to be true. Within Mormonism, the idea of truth reigned supreme.

Mormons had it and wanted to share it with the rest of the world, while all others who were not Mormon had some portion of it, but not the fullness. I'm a Gen-Xer. I'm in that group of people who were in their teens and early twenties when the internet went live for the general public.

Dial up and slow downloads. When I first began discussing my religion online back in 1999, there was a lot of optimism about what this new medium could do for communication between people of different backgrounds. Only a few doomsday prophets suggested that it could be detrimental to the very idea of objective truth. My fall down the rabbit hole began with an attempt to be a missionary for my faith. I had been a full-time Mormon missionary in Hungary for two years from 1997 to 1999.

When I returned to the U.S., I moved to greater Cincinnati area, married and began working for an insurance company. I tried to share my Mormon beliefs with one of the security guards in the building where I worked. She was a kind, older African American lady named Charlotte. We would talk and discuss religion for a few minutes each day. I gave her a copy of the Book of Mormon and sent her a pair of full-time missionaries to begin meeting with her.

It looked as if my missionary efforts were paying off. After several weeks of lessons, she handed me the copy of the Book of Mormon that I had given her and a packet of printed pages from various websites. She told me that she had spoken with her pastor and that he had told her that the Mormon religion was racist. I appealed to my own conduct with her. She asked me if I was aware that black people were not allowed to hold the LDS priesthood until 1978. I told her that I was aware of that. She asked if I was aware of any of the other things about my church that were represented in the materials that she had handed me.

I told her that I would have to look into them, but that anyone can post anything on the internet, and that doesn't make it true. In this episode, I and the other Sons of Light discuss what it's like to stare down that scary question, what if Mormonism isn't true? I'm Paul Bunyan, he's Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist, and he's Michael the Ex-Mormon Apologist.

Let's get into it. Alright, so in the intro, I outed myself as a Gen-Xer. Michael, which cohort group do you fall into? Well, it's funny that you ask, because I guess technically I'm a millennial, but I didn't know that until a couple months ago, so it's like I spent all this time making fun of millennials and then look what happens. I don't really self-identify as a millennial, but that's kind of a millennial thing to do, I guess, so yeah, I guess that's where I fall. Wait, so not self-identifying as a millennial is a millennial thing to do, or identifying as a millennial is a millennial thing to do? I think just self-identifying as something that you're not is a millennial thing to do. Oh, okay. But, no, I think of myself as like a Gen-Xer, even though I guess I'm not one.

Alright, what about you, Matthew? Yeah, I'm a millennial. I mean, unless they've changed the decades or something, they keep shifting those years, but yeah, I'm a millennial as well.

Okay, cool, cool. So we've got a Gen-Xer and two millennials, even though one didn't know who he was and wants us to pretend to be a Gen-Xer, which is a millennial thing to do. Yeah.

Got it. He was a millennial before he knew he was a millennial. That's pretty hipster right there. He was a millennial before it was cool to be a millennial. Just like he was a Christian before he knew he was a Christian, right? Yep. Alright, so next question. Do you think that one's status as a member of a particular social cohort might affect the way that one reacts when deconstructing Mormonism?

I think absolutely. Just the way that different generations view the Mormon Church is so different. I remember being active and hearing baby boomers say things like, oh, you can't wash dishes on Sunday. And I'd be like, wait, what?

Where did that come from? And I feel like every generation it's a different Mormonism that you're dealing with. And for me, growing up truth was pretty static. And so I felt like if somebody challenged me really hard on just one issue, it would be enough. If they challenged me hard enough and it was a core belief, they could actually make the whole thing crumble just from one point. But I feel like these days a lot of Mormons, you know, have doctrinal walls made out of jello. And it's kind of like, you know, they pull truth from anywhere they want to. And you can't approach it the same way.

You almost have to take down the whole thing at the same time. And it's a lot harder to deconstruct it now than it used to be. That's just how I feel about it. Like you said, I think it's not just a generational thing.

I think it's also. Well, of course, it's a cultural thing because we always make the distinction between, you know, quote unquote Utah Mormons and Mormons from outside Utah. And, you know, I think I think you both might agree that, well, you know, I think Michael, we're the only ones that were from Utah, right? You weren't from Utah, right, Paul? Actually, I am born and raised. I'm actually from Texas.

I didn't really spend any time in Utah. Oh, man, I had him flipped. Man, my memory. Yeah. So Paul, you probably had this experience between missionaries where they would say, oh, you're a Utah Mormon, you know, amongst all the other missionaries.

And then they suddenly look at you differently. Yeah, of course. So there's there's that aspect, too. But yeah, I absolutely do think that there is a generational aspect to how you experience Mormonism. And I was just thinking when when Michael was talking that just the fact that we call it Mormonism and that we call ourselves ex Mormons and use the term Mormon is is a generational thing because there's so many Latter-day Saints now that say, we're not Mormons anymore. Stop using that word, right?

Because that's what their prophet asked them to do. So just the fact that we even use that terminology is just a sign that that we are from a different time, I guess. Yeah, that's true. So as a millennial, are there ways in which you think you processed your deconstruction of Mormonism differently than, say, someone from Gen X or someone who's a baby boomer? I would say that I did. I think I was kind of coming from this place, you know, kind of being in the middle of two generations almost where the doctrine was super important to me. But then there were social aspects of the church that were beginning to become important to me as well.

And so. It wasn't just finding out that there are parts of the doctrine that were wrong, but then kind of seeing things that the church did that were those hurting people. It really had an effect on me that I don't know if it would have done the same thing with an older generation. Sorry, do you want me to go ahead?

Yeah, I had a similar experience to you, Michael. So even though you're technically a millennial, I don't think there's too many too many years difference between us. Right. So remind me how old you are.

Thirty five. That's right. So yeah, there's only six years between us. So we're fairly close in age.

And so it's not like, you know, a 20 year difference. And, you know, when you said about the doctrine being super important, you know, I remember, you know, when I was on my Mormon mission, people were still passing around, you know, Bruce R. McConkie's seven deadly heresies talk and, you know, that definitely the doctrine was was such a focal point when I was, you know, growing up in my Utah wards and just doesn't seem the same now. And I think that I think that's similar to you. I mean, I don't I don't think I you know, when I when I look at this social cohorts, I'm kind of like right on the edge of that, right at the end of Gen X.

And so I may kind of straddle that line as well. But you're right, there was there were some social things going on within the LDS church and within broader society within the United States and around the world that, you know, between like the years 2000 and maybe like 2012 really shifted the way the church was was approaching some social issues and and you're right, did some things that hurt people. And yeah, that that definitely was important to me as well and impacted the way I process things.

I think. What about you, Matthew? Well, it's interesting because, you know, I've kind of not always been a Mormon. Well, I wasn't always a Mormon my whole life. So I was kind of rediscovering Mormonism for myself. And so I was kind of learning about it from books.

I was reading a lot of textbooks and a lot of books from Brice R. McConkie, from from Joseph F. Smith, from James Talmage. And so I was learning about these traditional doctrines. And I think there's the older generations probably really held to those doctrines, as Michael is explaining. They they really kind of clung to those traditional Orthodox teachings. But as time has gone on, it's Mormonism has definitely evolved, especially after the present.

Gordon B. Hinckley was the leader of the LDS church. He's he's really grew that church to be an international worldwide church. And with that, it's it's kind of morphed into into something more socially palatable, I guess you could say, where, like you said, like the traditional Orthodox Mormon doctrines are kind of hidden or they're de-emphasized in lieu of trying to appear more Christian. And so with with this change, it seems like with the social changes, like you've said, it seems like millennials are very open to acceptance. They're very open to new information. They're very interested in having knowledge or asking questions. And so and with the LDS church releasing all these articles and information, that's all available to us now. And Latter-day Saints have to deal with that knowledge in some way. So millennials are really they're really thirsting, I think, for some kind of answers. But the way that they deal with information and come to their own conclusion is is different for every one of us.

So I hope that answers your question. You know, there's something that you made me just kind of jump jump into my mind, Matthew, what you were talking. And that is just it seems like these days there's such a tendency for Latter-day Saints to just kind of be cafeteria Mormons and just kind of accept what they want to and throw out the things that they don't want to believe in. And it almost seems like however many members there are of the church right now, that's how many denominations there are.

Like each person holds to their own unique viewpoint. And it's just completely different from from before where, you know, it seems like when I was growing up, we were emphasizing that the church was true. And that's why it was so important to be a member of the church. And and now it's shifted to, well, the church does good things.

The church is a good social entity. And a lot of those things are being de-emphasized, like the great apostasy. And, you know, what God supposedly told you Smith about all the churches being an abomination in his sight. You don't hear that like you would have in the past.

Right. And I think I think what's been interesting to me in seeing some of the ways that millennial Mormons engaged online, because, you know, one thing that our listeners should know is that the three of us met online in various Facebook forums where where we discuss Mormonism and Christianity and differences and basically work at evangelism to Mormons online. And one of the things that surprised me about some of the millennial Mormons is that although there's this there's been this social shift for them, that is very prominent in the way that they approach their Mormonism. There's still this like rabid clinging to the idea that it's true, right, that it is the one true church and they are a part of it and they are a chosen generation. And it's important for them to have that identity as Mormon and as part of the true religion that that that has been handed down from God. And so I thought that's interesting because, you know, they tend to have sort of a postmodern approach to truth in general. And yet among some and I don't want to get into talking about any individuals, but I just think it's been it's been interesting to me to watch that that happen among certain individuals and that I think that clinging at least for me, I can definitely relate to it as I went through my transition out of Mormonism. I redefined what Mormonism was for me in many ways. And yet there was still the desire to cling to this idea that it was true.

So that's really what we're talking about today. You are listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. Outer Brightness, Outer Brightness, Outer Brightness.

There's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here, except when Michael's hangry that is, hangry that is, hangry that is. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1-9, which calls Jesus the true light, which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be. And the light we have is not our own. It comes to us from without.

Thus, Outer Brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.

We're glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. That kind of brings us to the next question. What was your experience of reaching the realization that Mormonism wasn't true?

Michael? For me, it was a couple of things. I remember this one defining moment where they came out with the November policy saying that children of gay parents couldn't be baptized.

I really had an issue with that doctrinally because the article of faith said, we believe men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. For me, it was more of a in the realm of just, you know, mental thinking and abstract disagreement that I had with the church. But then and then I realized that people were committing suicide over the policy, that there had been several young Latter-day Saints that had that had taken their own lives. And that really hit home for me. I felt like I could see something that I hadn't been able to see before. And that was that the plan of happiness wasn't making anybody happy, that it's causing people to be miserable. And I just felt like I could see something and it was so obvious, but nobody else around me could see the problems with the church and the pain that it was causing. And so really, that's what opened my eyes. And from there, it just became more and more obvious that it wasn't that it wasn't God's church. Yeah, good. Matthew, what about you?

What was your experience like? So the moment that I realized that the church wasn't true. Well, it was after a long struggle with many of the different facets of church history and doctrine changing and all these different things. You know, I thought this was going to just be a faith crisis that I could overcome and it would be stronger in my testimony. But there was just a point where I just kept diving into the teachings and the writings and I just was just finding answers, but they were opposite of what I was hoping for. And I can remember where I was approximately on the campus when I just couldn't believe it anymore and I just felt like I had a mental breakdown. It's like everything that you thought you worked for and were fighting for and taught as a missionary for two years, it was a very disconcerting experience.

It was really painful. But it was just the culmination of a lot of different things that I had read and thought about and tried to mull over. And to me, if this is God's church, it has to be logical. You know, God is not going to act in an illogical way.

And so when he teaches one thing to a previous prophet and contradicts it with a succeeding prophet, that just didn't make sense to me. So it was a really difficult time, but I think as far as experience goes, it was an experience that I know that God had led me to. But it was difficult because it was, who can you talk to about that? You feel like you're betraying your people, you're betraying your family with that experience. So it was a very lonely time as well.

Yeah, definitely. I can definitely resonate with that. So the weekend that Angela, my wife and I decided that we were going to stop attending the LDS church and actually go outside and start looking around our area for other churches that we might attend, that weekend, you use the term mental breakdown. And I can totally get that because that's what it was like. I remember just going into our room and laying on the bed and just having all of this emotion kind of flow out of me. And, you know, one of our teenage daughters came in and, you know, laid down next to me and was kind of concerned and wondering what was going on. And, you know, it was difficult to try to explain to her what that was like to have all of that pressure and kind of built up frustration of trying to believe and trying to force myself to believe, even though like you, Matthew, I've done all of the study and deconstruction through LDS church history and, you know, Book of Mormon archaeology and Book of Abraham and all of that over more than a decade, that final point of saying, okay, it's enough and we're going to do something else was still very, very difficult and very painful. So definitely feel you there. Did you have something else you wanted to say, Matthew? Yeah, I mean, I just I'm having sympathy pains for you guys right now because it just reminds me of of how that felt. You know, it's just something completely, some completely different.

You can't you can't explain it almost. I spent so much time just defending the church, you know, online and arguing in support of it. And then and then I found out that it wasn't true. And I would even within the last year from leaving, I'd wake up sometimes like having almost a panic attack, you know, wondering, you know, what's real, what isn't, you know, am I still a Mormon? Did I actually leave?

Like, did that really happen? And the closest thing I can compare that to, not that I've experienced it, but I think it's like recovering from a drug addiction. It's just, you know, you lose your your entire personality or identity, I mean, is tied up in in this church. And so when you leave, everything gets called into question. And I remember just having these crazy dreams. After I left to like, I had this one where I was giving a presentation in a Mormon ward.

And somebody asked me, you know, if the prophet could supersede scripture, and I said that he couldn't, and we needed to test what he said by the scriptures, and everybody stood up, and they started calling me a heretic, and basically drove me out. And it was it was really tough, because, you know, I still view them like they're my family. But at the same time, I've just become an outcast. Yeah, the loss of relationships is tough.

For sure. Did Did you experience any of that? Matthew, loss of relationships? Yeah, well, when I when I've come to that realization that I felt that the church wasn't true, I, you talk about your shelf collapsing, you know, you put your shelf up, and you you put the items on the shelf that you don't quite understand, well, that mental breakdown is when your shelf collapses. And after that, I kind of tried to pick up the pieces and try to put it back together, and try to make sense of everything. And so I started kind of going back to church a few months after that, to try to say, well, you know, maybe I can just like you said, become a cafeteria Mormon, maybe I can just reject what I don't like and I can keep what I like. And part of that was because at the time I when I moved out to New York for graduate studies, I was engaged.

So I was I was preparing for the wedding day in the summer of that year. And when I when I had my my my mental breakdown, my collapse, I just texted her, I sent my I sent my fiance a text message. And I said, I'm sorry, I just can't do this anymore. And that was about all I could.

That's about all I could type out because I was just so distraught. And then I turned my phone off for the next few days, I think, and just kind of went to my own little, little corner. And so after that, I turned my phone back on and found out that, you know, the engagement was off and, and that wasn't gonna work out.

And, and, but, you know, I'm very thankful that that didn't work out, because it would have been much more difficult if, if we had gone through with the marriage, and I tried to leave later. But as far as other friendships, you know, I started attending the ward out here in New York. And so I didn't, I didn't really have any other friends, or I don't have any family here. So they were my only support network that I had really was my my ward. And as you both know, the LDS Church is great at getting people integrated and feeling loved and needed.

And so I was feeling very, I felt a lot of communion, a lot of fellowship with the people here. So when I stopped, you know, when I finally came to the realization that I just don't want to attend the church anymore, you feel very cut off and you lose those friendships and those connections and, and, you know, I lost out on, on the marriage. So, but I'm very grateful that my family has been relatively understanding. So I still have my family relationships to an extent, some of them are might be a little bit strained, but but but yeah, so I mean, I think everybody has those those relationships or friendships that they that they that they fear they're going to lose when they when they come to a knowledge that the LDS Church isn't what it purports to be. It's a very real fear. What other fears did you have Michael about life after Mormonism? A lot of it was was fear of the unknown. I didn't, I didn't understand what Christian culture was going to be like.

And so it was definitely a step in the dark, as far as that was concerned. But the thing that I was afraid of the most was losing my wife and my child. I've seen horror stories where people left the church and then it resulted in divorce. And I was so afraid of that, that I didn't tell my wife when I left the church. Initially, she ended up finding out because the sister missionaries came to my house and left a note while I was away. And then she read it. And then I came home and she said we needed to talk. And at first she was supportive.

But eventually, it did fall apart. And that was something that I, I'd say that was my greatest fear about leaving the church and that I would lose my family relationships. But luckily, aside from the marriage, all my other friendships and my family relationships stayed intact. I was really scared to tell my family. I didn't tell them for about six months after I left the church because I was just that horrified to tell them I thought that I was going to be disowned or they were going to hate me.

And they ended up finding out on Christmas Eve by watching a video on YouTube. It was really awkward. But overall, everything, everything else was, was okay.

Yeah. I can't tell you how I've told you this before Michael, you know, you and I were in contact throughout that time. And, you know, just how much I praise God for bringing you through that.

I know how difficult it was for you from the conversations that we had and just kind of how touch and go it was. And just just got to give all all praise and glory to God for his goodness. I know he's brought you to a place that you probably didn't see a few years ago.

And I just think it's incredible. Oh, yeah, there was there's a point there where I didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel. And I was literally, you know, asking God, like, why did you save me out of Mormonism? Like, was it just to abandon me?

You know, I was kind of feeling that way. And I think he just let me get all the way to the breaking point before he healed me just to show me that he was all I needed, that he was sufficient and that he could take care of me no matter where I was. And, you know, I'm in a great relationship now.

I'm married to a Christian woman and I couldn't be happier. So, yeah, I never saw this coming. Amen.

Praise God. So in thinking about fears that I had about leaving Mormonism definitely resonate with you, Michael, on the fear of losing your family. You know, part of my story on that, Michael, and, you know, each of us will be sharing more of our story in other episodes.

So I won't get too far into that now. But I think one of the biggest fears that I had was that I was wrong, that somehow in all of my studies, in all of my efforts to understand Mormonism, its teachings, its history, whether or not it was true, that somehow in my conclusions, I was wrong. And that plagued me for a long time. In fact, I would say that the first realization that I had that Mormonism wasn't true was probably around 2001, maybe spring of 2001, after my son was born.

And, you know, we didn't leave as a family until May of 2010. So there were a lot of years there where I dealt with kind of a crippling fear that I was wrong. And, you know, it led me to do more study and more learning. And of course, I was, you know, working through schooling for my business degree and raising a family. So it wasn't all just, you know, focused on studying Mormonism. But I think there was that fear of being wrong that kept me there longer than maybe it should have.

What about you, Matthew? Any other fears you want to touch on before we move on to better things? What you said, Paul, about fearing that you were wrong, I think that resonates really strongly with me because I like to think that I'm a fairly logical person. So just the thought that, you know, we were taught as Latter-day Saints, and I'm not sure if they really emphasize that anymore because, like we've said, the doctrine is changing constantly, that the only people who are eligible for outer darkness are former Latter-day Saints, people who have received sufficient light that when they turn away from it, that they'll be condemned. So there's always that thought in my mind, what if I'm wrong? You know, if I'm wrong, then it's possible I have enough light that maybe I will go to outer darkness.

I don't know. So that was probably, outside of the fear of losing friends and family, I think the fear of just being wrong and just standing before God and realizing that I was wrong, that just terrified me. Amen. I was so afraid of being wrong that I didn't even know that I was afraid of being wrong because I couldn't acknowledge that that was a fear that I had. I had to stand there with my eyes wide shut, so to speak, and I was just like, I don't care, even if it is wrong. I'm never going to leave the church under any circumstances. I was like, even if the prophet and the apostles abandoned the church and there's only one congregation left on earth, I am going to be in that congregation. I am not going to fall away.

And those were my famous last words. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the Outer Brightness Podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like. We also have an Outer Brightness group on Facebook, where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes and suggestions for future episodes, etc. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness.gmail.com.

We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Casts, PodBeam, Spotify, and Stitcher. Also, you can check out our new YouTube channel, and if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael the Ex-Mormon Apologist at fromwater2wine.org, where he blogs and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well.

Music for the Outer Brightness Podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com. Stay Bright, Flyer Flies! The word made fresh, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of God through ages remains. Lord, you promised that we, as your church, would remain upon this rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against us, cause you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures for them forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. As the rain falls down from heaven and waters the earth, bringing it life, so the word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty, but does what you desire. Lord, we hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains.