You're entering Outer Brightness. So, I was trying to remember, did we discuss last time that Michael you would kind of intro this one and kind of lead off. Yes, I think that is the plan. If I can remember how to do the intro, but I'll try it out if you're ready for it. Yeah, let's go.
Okay, I don't remember how it goes. So, it's like, okay, welcome to the Outer Brightness Podcast. I'm Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist. He's Paul Bunyan and he's Matthew, the nuclear Calvinist. Are you going to explain what a nuclear Calvinist is?
Well, it's a Calvinist, for sure, and I guess they're just more nuclear than other Calvinists, whatever that means. Do you have ridiculously large knuckles? No, they're pretty average size, I think. But they are nuclear knuckles. Yeah, they hit harder. You don't want to get in a fight with Matthew.
Got the rocket punch thing going. So yeah, sorry, keep going, I interrupted you. No, no, it's all good. So yeah, today we're going to have the great pleasure of talking with Matthew about his story, both coming into Mormonism and leaving Mormonism. So let's get right into this. Matthew, say hello to the good people. Hello, Michael and everyone in the world then, Paul. Everyone in the world. The whole world is listening. He's setting us up seriously, isn't he?
Everyone in the world. I know. He's got big plans for us.
I like it. All right, Matthew. So tell me, set things up for me a little bit. I want to know how Mormonism came onto the scene for you, and what was it that attracted you to this religion?
Okay. So I grew up in northern Utah, in the Pleasant View, North Ogden, Ogden area. So I was born in Ogden, but kind of lived in those general regions. Moved around a few times, but stayed generally in northern Utah in that area. And my family was LDS.
My parents are both members. And so we went to church fairly often, I think, as when I was a kid, but we were basically, we attended on Sunday and then we kind of, that was kind of it. You know, we were Sunday Mormons, so we would attend church weekly. And I remember sitting in the pews and listening to the music and being at church or listening to the lessons. But other than that, we didn't really read scriptures as a family when I was really young.
We didn't really watch general conference or anything like that. So I think it was mostly kind of a thing where my parents brought me because they thought it was a good environment, you know. I didn't think my parents were really very religious at the time. So I was attending as a young child then.
And there would be times where we kind of went on and off and my sister would go as well. But yeah, so that's how I was brought up, you know. Just being in Utah, you're kind of enveloped by the culture of the LDS church. So if you, you know, and it's kind of like the mindset where a lot of people, if they grow up, let's say, you know, in places where there's a strong evangelical presence, you know, they might, even if they're not religious themselves, they might go back to their roots and bring their kids to church. So I figure that's kind of what my parents did with us when they had us.
And so I was introduced to it that way. Wasn't, you know, I wasn't really thinking much about the church, but you would hear certain things at church, you know, where they talk about God or Jesus and don't really remember understanding it very well. But I remember when I was about eight or nine, because, you know, that's the time when you should be getting baptized, the topic never really came up with me.
You know, my parents never really encouraged me or pushed me to do it. But I remember having an experience where, you know, I remember hearing about heaven and, you know, you hear about heaven from Disney movies and other sources, so heaven's just a thought, you know, in the mind of a child usually. And I'd heard something about, like, you have to be baptized to go to heaven. And so I remember being at a water park with my parents, and this was just kind of bugging me that day. So I asked my mom, I'm like, so, hey mom, you know, like, I've heard something about baptism, like, aren't you supposed to do it?
Like, isn't that something you're supposed to do if you want to go to heaven? And I remember my parents saying, yeah, you know, you kind of have to do it. And so that kind of bothered me, because I hadn't been baptized.
I was probably eight or nine. And so I started thinking more about it. And then over time, I was thinking more about baptism and wanting to do it. Then when my sister turned eight, you know, I thought it would be a good opportunity to, you know, like, I was like, I don't want to be cut off from heaven, you know, I don't want to, I want to be able to go to heaven when I die.
But that was kind of, that seemed to be kind of like what was on my mind. And my parents were happy that I wanted to do it. So it was kind of wanting to please my parents.
So, you know, those, those several factors combined. So I had, I asked my parents if I could be baptized, and they said, well, sure, but since you're basically, I was either nine or ten at the time, I had to hear the missionary lessons. So we talked to our bishop at the time.
He set up the appointments, and they sent the missionaries over to our house. And so I remember, I don't remember the elders' names, I remember there's probably at least two or three sets of elders that, that taught me over those few months. And it was during the time of the discussions, you know, so the question and answer type of stuff. But since I was kind of a little kid, I don't really understand what was going on. So I think they kind of just like, went through the discussions and just, you know, kind of plowed through them. Kind of like asked me, like, do you understand? And I'd be like, uh, kind of.
You know, I remember the little flip charts they had with the pictures of like the celestial kingdom and the terrestrial kingdom, and the flip cards, whatever they're called. So, yeah, so I took the missionary lessons that way, and then my sister, she was turning eight, so we both were baptized the same day by my, by my uncle Val. He's a really cool guy. And uh, yeah, we were confirmed that same day, so. It was kind of a cool experience, so my sister is two years younger than I am, we were both baptized the same day.
So that was pretty awesome. So that's how I joined the church. So I'm technically, I was technically a convert, I guess, you know, but I mean, I was only ten, so, you know, I was practically born into the church. Were your parents LDS when you were born? Were they born and raised LDS, or were they also converts? Yeah, I think, I'm pretty sure my parents were both baptized when they were eight.
Memory serves. My, my dad's family was a lot more active in the church. My mom, I'm not quite sure about my mom's family. Yeah, I know, I know my dad's family was a lot more active, and he went ever since he was a kid.
So, yeah, I think, I think he had mentioned to me once that my grand, my grandfather on my dad's side before he passed away, he was a high priest. But other than that, I don't know much else. Okay.
Yeah. Um, I was gonna ask you two, after you and your sister got baptized, did that cause your whole family to become more active, or were you guys, did you continue to kind of be Sunday Mormons for a while after that? I kind of want to say that it was probably kind of similar. We, I think we tried a few times to do family home evening, but, you know, being kids, we kind of just wanted to skip to the end where you could have the treats. So, we didn't, you know, we didn't want to do the lesson time and all that stuff. We just wanted to go to the treats.
So that didn't kind of really work out. I don't recall having a solid scripture reading together as kids. So, that was, so from probably 10 to 12, that's kind of, that's kind of what it had, what happened. So it kind of, it might have, you know, our activity I think went up a little bit and, you know, we were more interested and, you know, my parents were excited to see me and they, you know, bought me a new set of scriptures and things like that. But yeah, it was pretty much, it was kind of the same. It was always confusing to me too because I remember as a kid, we would always go shopping on Sunday and I remember, you know, being in Pasco or Sam's Club or something.
Yeah, Sam's Club. And I'd, you know, I'd be like, are we not supposed to shop on Sundays? You know, I never, I'd ask that to my parents and I never, they'd kind of be like, you know, they'd grumble or, you know, I'd be like, well, you know, kind of I guess. But, you know, we're busy. So, I'm, you know, I'm not trying to disparage my parents or speak ill of them, you know. They're good people. But yeah, they kind of never gave me a clear answer when I was a kid and I was like, you know, I was thinking like, that's kind of strange, you know.
You go to church every week and they say not to shop on Sundays, but we do it all the time. So, that was a little confusing to me. But yeah, so it stayed kind of that way and then it was after that that my parents started kind of having some marital problems. It's like really complicated, but you know. But anyways, my parents started having some stress in their marriage and it was, so around 12 years old I think is when my parents separated and divorced. So, at that point, yeah, so I was living with my mom and my dad moved out. It was kind of a tumultuous, you know, confusing time for a kid at that age. You know, I was just entering junior high school and trying to deal with that and then my mom, you know, started dating a few months after my parents divorced.
So, that was kind of rough too, getting used to that. And then they got married within a year or two after that. But I've got a really good, great stepdaddy. His name is Ralph.
My mom's name is Julie and my dad's name is Dirk. That's good to hear. When I was serving in the Young Men's Organization, when we were still active in the LDS Church, out here in the mission field, I encountered a lot of families that had, you know, divorces in the family and the church's teachings on eternal families were often quite painful for those children. Was that part of your experience during that time as well, Matthew?
Yeah, it was kind of hard. I forgot to mention that when I was younger, they would often talk in primary about, you know, eternal families, like you had mentioned. And I knew that my parents weren't married in the temple.
So, I would, you know, I'd bring that up with my parents and I'd ask, like, well, everybody else I know in my primary, you know, I ask them and they say their parents are married in the temple. And so, like, why aren't you? And, you know, little kids have this way of asking questions, like really probing questions without really having much tact.
You know, they just concentrate to the chase. So, that's how I was as a kid. I was like, why aren't you married in the temple?
You know, what's the deal? So, it was mostly, it was difficult, but I didn't really think about the eternal aspect of it at that time. I was more just thinking about, you know, it was, you know, I didn't like the, you know, the conflict that I would see as a kid and a lot of times my, you know, like, there might be some splash backs and some things that, you know, they would get frustrated at me and my sister or, you know, my half brother. So, my half brother is from my mom's first marriage. So, my mom had been married previously to marry my dad and then she divorced her first time as a man and he married my dad. So, he was, I just treated him like my brother, you know, I didn't really care that he was my half brother. We got along, we played video games and stuff. So, it was just kind of rough for all of us because my half brother had been kind of getting into trouble with school and with the law and things like that around that age.
So, it was kind of just a confusing time in general. I wasn't really worried about the eternal family part. I mean, especially because my parents weren't married in the temple.
So, it wasn't really on my radar. Your stepfather, was he LDS as well? Yeah, he's, I think he still is technically LDS. You know, my parents and my step-daddy, I believe they're all LDS.
He was also married before and he had, he has several daughters from his previous marriage. And yeah, so he was LDS as well but he's like my mom. My mom's a very illogical person. She's very technically literate. She did a lot of computer programming for her job and for her career. So, she's a very logical person. So, I think that's kind of how she just perceives the world is she's very logical and, you know, makes, things have to make sense, you know.
So, like, I think she sees the church as a good thing but not really something for her. So, yeah. Did I answer your question? Yeah. Okay.
Yeah, yeah. I was just curious how, what part of the church continued to play after your mom's remarriage and the blended family situation? Yeah, I think at the time, I wasn't sure about my dad's attendance but I know that my mom and my stepdad would go with me to our church and our ward. And I think it was kind of to support me because at that time I was, you know, when I turned 12, I was ordained to be a deacon and then when I was 14, I was ordained to be a teacher. So, you know, they were there to support me when I was preparing the sacrament and doing, what's that called, tithing?
What's that called? Fast offerings. Fast offerings, thank you.
It's getting late, my brain's not working too well. But, yeah, fast offerings. So, they would support me and, you know, they would drive me out if there was a member that was a ways away. So, they were really helpful and supportive.
So, I'm really grateful for that. So, we went for a few years. I think I stopped, I think I kind of started getting less interested in doing all that stuff probably when I was about 14, 15. And so my activity kind of went down and I never, you know, I was never really into the church that much. It was kind of something I just felt like it was a good thing to do, it's a good place to be and my friends were there, you know, from the neighborhood and school. So, it was a place where we could go and, you know, on Sundays it's a nice place to just spend time. You know, I really liked the music too, I still do. I still like the music at the LDS church meetings. So, yeah, it became a cultural thing but I kind of, when it's a cultural thing and you don't really have religious feelings for the church, your tendency to want to continue attending, especially when things get busy and school and everything gets in the way. So, I just kind of lost interest in going for a while and so 14, 15, 16, by that time my dad had also remarried and so my stepmom has several kids from her first marriage. So, yeah, there's a lot of divorces and remarriages in my family.
It gets kind of crazy but she's a great person too. She was actually my first boss at Little Caesars. That was my first job, was cooking pizzas. No shame in that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was a great job.
I worked there for pretty much all through high school, starting in the college. So then, you know, then the high school wasn't really religious at all. I don't know, I didn't really see the point of it. I wasn't really quite willing to say that there, I don't know, there were times where I felt like I was an atheist, you know, I'd tell people, well, I don't think there's a God. And then there'd be other times where I'm like, well, you know, I don't know, maybe, we'll see. You know, I was kind of just, just not really interested anymore. And it kind of just stagnated in my, my religious growth. So I was still a member, I wasn't excommunicated or disfellowshipped or anything, just kind of stopped and stopped attending for a while.
Now, Matthew, was there, was there a point, I guess, where you came to believe that the church was definitely true, or that you gained a testimony of it? Yeah, it was, it was around the time that, when I was just starting college, so that would have been around 2005, I was, so I was in that phase where I wasn't really interested in religion, I wasn't really interested in the church. And there was, I had actually, I'd actually been let go from my job at the time, because I said, I said a dumb joke to somebody that, that I shouldn't have said, you know, and I felt bad for it.
But it wasn't, I wasn't trying to cause offense, but it did. And so I was let go. But at that time, I was kind of like already thinking about quitting anyway, because I was really busy with, with school, you know, in college. And so I was, I was like, you know, I probably should either find work somewhere else closer to campus or, you know, just leave, because I'd been there for about three years or something like that. So that was kind of like a point where it's kind of brought to a break, like a breaking point kind of, you know, I felt, you know, really bad for what happened, and I felt kind of embarrassed that it happened that way, and there was some miscommunication, and I wish that, you know, we could have resolved it, but we couldn't. So, so it was at that point that I was kind of like, kind of just, I still felt, I've been a perfectionist ever since I was a kid, you know, if I can't do something right, if I can't do a great job at it, it's like, don't even try. And so that's kind of affected me my whole life that I've tried to fight with this perfectionism. And so at this point, you know, when I, when I had been like, go for my job because of this, because of this incident, I just felt really bad and really terrible, and I was just kind of sick of the, you know, the person that I was.
I was tired of, you know, making mistakes and not being, you know, not feeling like a, like a good person, not feeling like I, like I should be, I just kind of had this tendency to want to be something better. So, so that kind of drew me back to more, thinking more about religion, thinking more about God and things like that, and I put very, very minimal effort into kind of thinking about the various types of religions, you know, I thought about like, you know, like there's Eastern religions, there's, there's, there's Islam, but like a lot of those I just wasn't really interested in, like I read a little bit from, you know, Buddhism, like from Buddha, you know, some of those sayings, and I'm like, ah, some interesting stuff, but, you know, like, I don't know, it just doesn't seem like something I could commit my life to. And so I kind of, kind of like focused on religion, like the Christian, you know, Christian based religions. So I, you know, I was like, I was kind of drawn into this concept of priesthood, priesthood authority, priesthood power, priesthood keys, things like that. So, you know, I kind of got sucked into the idea that, that many Mormons are taught that it's like, well, you know, either the Roman Catholic Church is true or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, because, you know, they're the only ones that have a valid claim to priesthood authority, and, well, I mean, that's not technically true, you know, like it's more complicated than that, but that was my understanding at the time, was that it's either the Roman Catholic Church or it's, or it's the LDS Church, and, you know, I'd read, I started reading a lot of stuff like James Tomlage's The Great Apostasy, I read that book, and he goes into detail as to why, you know, Roman Catholicism he believed was not correct, you know, because of the various doctrines like transubstantiation of the mass and changing of baptism, you know, they believe in infant baptism, and, you know, these were a lot of arguments that James Tomlage was using to try to show that Roman Catholicism was apostate, and so I kind of really bought into that, you know, I really liked his scholarship and felt drawn to that, so to me the only logical conclusion was the LDS Church must be true, but, you know, that, so I started, you know, reattending the church and going to the elders quorum back then, I was still a teacher because I left before I was ordained a priest, but I was attending the quorum and just reading a lot, and the more I attended the church I was like, you know what, you know, if this is true, you know, if this church is true, then I really want to, I mean, I feel like the most logical conclusion is I should serve a mission, if I've been given a knowledge that the church is true, then I should go, I should serve, that's what I should do, and I was still young at the time, I was 19, 20ish during this process, and so in that time I read a lot and thought a lot and prayed a lot and read the Book of Mormon a lot and people were constantly giving me talks to read and various books to read and I would go to firesides and, you know, I was all in, you know, I was like wanting a testimony, because you hear it every month, the fastened testimony meeting, people get up and say, you know, I know this church is true, I know God's confirmed it to me and I wanted that so badly, so I would pray a lot and read the Book of Mormon a lot and that says, you know, I don't feel like I have a witness yet, but I'm going to keep trying and trying and I would talk to my dad about it, because my dad had kind of been coming back to activity in the church around the same time I did, and so, you know, we were kind of both going on a little bit of a journey together, because he was, you know, my father had served a mission in Italy when he was younger and he kind of struggled with the activity a little bit, you know, in the years following, but he'd really started coming back, especially after he was remarried, so my stepmom's an active Latter-day Saint, so we both started coming back to church together, we'd share things that we learned and read together and so that was pretty, you know, my dad would share me all of his mission experiences and that was really exciting and I had friends that were leaving on missions, so it was kind of just like the right melting pot, like the right time, the conditions for, you know, to me to feel like, yeah, this is something I should do and so, you know, I felt like after praying and reading the Book of Mormon, you know, I felt like I had this burning of the bosom experiences, you know, in my room praying about it, I just felt like a warm, comforting feeling that the Book of Mormon was true and I felt like that was, you know, good enough, I thought that was, you know, that was God telling me that it was true. So after that, I kind of was, you know, I just went straight forward and I'd had another job before my mission, you know, before my mission I was working as a filing clerk for the IRS, so I worked that for a year and then I kind of just took a year off before my mission to just focus on just reading the Book of Mormon, just like really preparing as best I could and then I left when I was probably almost 21 on my mission. So yeah, I probably answered about three or four questions that you had in mind in that section.
That is okay. What strikes me about what you said is for a lot of us, you know, there was a lot of cultural pressure to go serve a mission from parents or girlfriends, I'd see that a lot from missionaries in the field, it sounds like there really wasn't a lot of pressure for you to go from your family that was really your decision. Yeah, for me it was, I think it was mostly wanting to do what I felt was right, going back to where I had those experiences where I felt like I was aspiring to be something better, you know, I felt like there's something I should be that I wasn't, so it was kind of out of that and wanting to help people, you know, it just seemed logical to me that if this is the true gospel and people need to have eternal life with Heavenly Father through this gospel, then I need to go out and preach the fullness of the gospel, the restored gospel. And I didn't, yeah, I didn't have a girlfriend that was, you know, St. Latter-day Saint that pressured me or anything, but there was kind of this thought in my mind, so I'm not going to say like I was totally, you know, a Mother Teresa type or something, you know, where I wanted to go out and save the world, because there was a part of my mind that felt kind of like, kind of like a disappointment living in Utah, you know, I'd gone on dates with girls who had never had like a steady girlfriend in high school or in college, and I always felt like that was kind of the reason for that was like I would go on dates with girls, but they knew that I wasn't like an active Latter-day Saint, they knew I wasn't really into the church, so it never really went beyond, you know, just being friends, so I felt kind of like disappointed by that, and I thought, you know, like I want to be this person, this kind of person I want to be, but at the same time, there's a part of me that kind of probably wanted it for selfish reasons, like, you know, if I want to start a family, if I'm living in Utah, it's going to be really difficult, you know, to date anybody if I'm not interested in the church, at least a little bit, so maybe that was kind of my motivation at the beginning, I don't know part of it, but, you know, it's part of the social aspect, I think, too, just wanting to fit in, wanting to be, you know, wanting to please others, I guess, so I guess that's kind of a pride thing, but it was a mixture of a lot of factors. So you wanted that return missionary cred with the ladies? I don't know if I went that far, maybe, it was more just like, I think it was more I just felt like I wanted to do the right thing, but, you know, I felt like that was kind of like the cherry on top, maybe, you know, like, hey, you know, I have friends that aren't serving missions and it's hard for, I've heard the rumors that it's hard to find, you know, girls to date or marry if you're not an RN, so maybe it was part of that, yeah, maybe that was part of that. It's okay, that's why I went, too.
I'm just driven you a little bit, I think we all go for that reason a little bit, yeah. It's funny you bring that up, because, like, I don't know if you guys, at least in my mission, like my trainer or some other people in my mission talked about, like, missionary points, I don't know if you heard about that. Yeah, no. Like, the more persecution you had on your mission or, like, the more people you converted, like, the more points you get and, like, basically the more attractive your wife would be. I didn't believe it, I thought it was just kind of ridiculous, but I guess some missionaries were really bought into it. I don't know. Anyway.
I guess if it were true, there'd be some random girl out there just, you know, every day getting more attractive and just being like, I guess my missionary's out there doing the right thing. Yeah, so, yeah, that just reminded me of that. So, yeah, so, I guess I can talk a little bit more about, like, the actual mission or... Yeah, I do want to hear about what happened during those two years and how that all went for you.
Sure. So, I put my, you know, I was preparing, I felt like I was to a point where I felt like I was quote unquote worthy to serve a mission and I was ready. So I was close to 21 when I left, or when I put in my mission papers. I put in my mission papers probably spring, late spring of 2007, then I got a call just a week and a half later. It was when they had done the digital, you know, papers process, so I didn't have to sign or send anything physically, it was all digital, which was pretty cool. Then a week and a half later, I got my mission call to the Belgium, Brussels, Netherlands mission. And I'd put down on my application that I'd studied French for, like, two or three years, I think, in junior high and high school, but I didn't really retain any of it, but I guess it worked, you know, because I put it down and I was really interested to learn a language and so I went to a French-speaking mission. So yeah, I was called to that mission, I reported MTC on August 1st of 2007 and the only way I remember that is because it was easy to remember, you know, August 1st.
And then I stayed there for two months, so I left exactly two months later, I think it was October 1st when I left. And I loved the MTC, you know, I didn't think, I didn't understand why people hated it so much, I just loved learning and reading and studying and learning a language was fun, so I really liked the MTC in Provo. So that was great, I got really deathly sick, I think the guys in the dorm room next to me got pink eye, so it was just a germ factory. But other than that, it was good, and it was cool to see apostles, and I don't know if I ever saw an apostle there give a talk, but I know he had a lot of 70s and mission presidents and things come talk to us. Someone started a rumor that Tom Cruise had died, that was interesting, I don't know why.
He was like, I heard someone said that Tom Cruise died, do you guys know him, do you know anything about that? And I was just like, you know, I was a little bit more mature because I was almost 21, and I was just like, man, what does that matter, like, come on man, you're on your mission, forget about that job. So our group was interesting because we had a lot of troublemakers on our group, like, there were missionaries that took stuff from the MTC and brought it with them, you know, stuff from their rooms, like property of the MTC and took it with them on their mission. There's one missionary in my group that, he didn't want to forget all the rap lyrics and song lyrics and stuff.
So he wrote them down from memory as much as he could, so he had like a huge book full of rap lyrics and stuff, and he brought that with him. I wasn't part of any of that stuff, you know, I was kind of just doing my own thing, studying, and our mission president found it, like he found all of it and kind of just put it out on the table, and he's like, so, you know, he brought in all the missionaries from our group and he says, do you guys have anything to explain for yourselves? Oh man, that was a funny experience.
I was like, I don't have anything to do with this, you know, in my brain, I'm like, I don't even know why I'm here, this is all them. Anyway, yeah, so, you know, flew to Europe, it was really great. Brussels, I love Belgium, Belgium in France is where I stayed, it was just an amazing place.
I just love the architecture and the history, and I love cathedrals, and just, yeah, just the heritage and the culture that they have there is really amazing. So I was first assigned to a city in, a little tiny city in northern France called Beitoun, and Elder Oblad was my trainer, and that was a really rough time because I was really out of shape, I gained some weight before my mission because when I stress, I eat, so the idea of moving to Europe really stressed me out before my mission, so I ate a lot. Then I got to my first city, and my trainer was like, you know, really in shape, like he, back home, you know, he'd work out in the gym all the time, he's still in shape from, you know, last time I heard him or saw him, and he would make me run like a mile every morning, a mile or two or something, and then we'd, you know, we'd walk and bike. I think I lost probably like at least 20 to 40 pounds like in my first transfer, I'm not even kidding, just all the exercise, I just, and you know, we barely ate anything.
I always felt starving all the time, so you know, that's a pretty good weight loss plan I guess. But it was a good, it was a good experience in my first transfer, it was just really hard, I was, you know, my perfectionism kicked in, and I wanted to be able to teach, but I couldn't, I always struggled with understanding what people were saying, I couldn't understand what they were saying, it was like, it was just, especially with French, being such a smooth language, you know, everything just kind of like blurs together, and like, I could understand it if I read it, if I read French, I could read it pretty okay, and I was told that I could speak pretty well, you know, for being only out for a few weeks. But I would say, I would ask a question, and I would have no idea what they would say, and so I would just smile and be like, oh, okay, and then I'd go on to the next idea, like, so do you have a family?
And they'd be like, if they said we, I'd be like, okay, yeah, they have a family, good. But if they went any further than that, I'd be totally lost, and then my trainer, my companion would be like, like, are you gonna answer their question, you know, but I would just go off and say something else, so it was kind of a nightmare, and that's how it was for the first six months of my mission, just like, I would say something, they would say something feedback, I have no idea what they're saying, and then I would just keep going and trying again. So, it took me at least six to eight months to even kind of start to understand what people were saying.
But, yeah, it was a really great experience. I mean, of course, when you look back on your mission, you tend to remember the good parts mostly, you don't remember how stressful it was, I do, I do remember just really feeling down on myself, just really beating myself up, just not feeling good enough. It's like, it's like, take your standard LDS experience and like crunching it into just like a compressor, it's just like the stress and the guilt and the shame and the excitement and like, so the good and the bad is all just compressed, it's like a really, it's like an espresso machine, you know, for the LDS experience, so I was learning a lot, but I also felt inadequate and my first two companions were kind of critical of me a little bit, I think, because I don't think my trainer had trained anybody yet, I think I was his first trainee and my second companion, older Knight, he's a great guy, but I think it was a little bit rough since I was still new and I wasn't very good with the language, it was hard for, it's hard for any missionary to go from being with somebody who's been out for like a year, who's pretty confident with the language, you know, they're pretty adequate, you know, they're used to what they're doing, to go in with somebody who's only been out six weeks, so it was hard for them to get used to that and I tried my best, but it's, you know, you just do what you can and I cried a lot at night, you know, I prayed a lot, I tried to keep it, you know, so they couldn't hear me, but you know, I'm sure they did, so it was rough, it was rough those first few months and, but overall, you know, I really enjoyed my mission, there was a lot of times where I felt happy, you know, I felt sad, you know, you just run through the whole gamut of emotions, I was a district leader for a couple transfers, that was really fun, those cities are really beautiful, I was in, it was in a city called Calais, right on the beach, like you guys have probably heard the tunnel that goes from the UK to France, although they might shut that down if they do the whole Brexit thing, you know, I don't know how that's gonna work, but that's the town where it kind of goes through is Calais, that's the town nearest the border between France and England, so we go to the beach, you know, on P days and just like read out on the beach, that was fun, couldn't go in the water though as missionaries. Yeah, so was there a point at which you got comfortable with the language and could communicate better with people, and how long was, how long out were you when you reached that point? Yeah, I want to say it was probably six to eight months where I started to feel at least somewhat adequate and then probably, you know, ten to twelve months, about a year out where I felt really good, so I spent six weeks in my first city and then they transferred me to Belgium for my second transfer, for four transfers total, so I'm trying to remember all the timing, so it was after that when I, I think I went back down to France, so it was probably back, when I went back down to France, that's when I started to feel really good about it, I think I was about six to eight months after we had to open a new area that had been closed for a while, well there were missionaries there, but we basically had to start from scratch, so it was, you know, eight to ten hours of just door to door or contacting on the street, so that really was kind of like the time where I really had to practice my French and get really good at it because it was just me and him, we were both out about a year, actually he was in my same group, so we were both kind of just starting from scratch, trying to get as many contacts as we could, that was when I really felt like I got pretty good, and then I started to feel confident, you know, in French, and then the mission president called me and he told me I was going to become a trainer, so I was terrified, turns out that my trainee was French, so he was, he was, I was imagining some green from America, you know, but he came in, you know, obviously he spoke fluent French, and not only that, but he spoke very, he spoke French very, very well, he was very attuned to the grammar, to enunciation, especially compared to a lot of the people that we spoke to on the street, he was just like very good at speaking French, and he's an excellent translator too, Benedetti, that was my, he has like an Italian name, but he's a French missionary, and that came with it a whole new slew of challenges that I could never have predicted, you know, I was, I was, I was expecting to do most of the talking and most of the work, you know, because I imagined myself as my trainee, and I'm like, oh no, I'm going to be stuck with me for the next six to, you know, twelve weeks, whatever, and it was the exact opposite, like he would just instantly click with anybody he talked to on the street, he was from, I think he was from Toulouse, around that area, you know, so south of France, but like, you know, they could connect instantly with the language and everything, and I, like, I hardly could ever get a word in, because they were just talking so fast, and I would try to squeeze my way in, and then I would get in for a few words and then they'd go back to talking really quickly, and that just frustrated me to no end, I just, I felt like I was the trainee, you know, like, it was a really humbling experience, but he was a really smart guy, a really good missionary, so I tried to, I tried to, you know, to be, you know, humble, to learn from him, so yeah, I mean, I could go, I could talk about my mission all day, but basically, yeah, that's kind of where I started to feel really confident, and the fact that he was there, my trainee was French, I could practice stuff with him, so I tried to look at the bright side of things instead of the bad side, so I could practice crazy, you know, tenses that you would probably never use in an actual conversation, but it was just fun to have this, like, living dictionary of French. Yeah, my first trainee, my first trainee was Hungarian, so I had very similar experience.
So you trained more than once then? Yeah, yeah, twice, once in one area and then once again in my last area, so Matthew, when you were talking about, you know, that it's hard on someone that, you know, has been out for a long time and then, you know, suddenly has a, you know, someone who's been out six weeks or someone who's a greenie, yeah, that was probably, that definitely was the hardest transition I made because I went into my last area, I was with a companion who had been out for, I think, just under a year, and so he was really hitting his stride with the language and really enjoyed getting out and doing the work of missionary, being a missionary, and so, you know, for a month we were just pounding the streets and then suddenly, you know, he was transferred out. I got a greenie and, you know, poor Elder Lyman had to put up with my not reacting very well to that transition, so yeah, it's tough, but yeah, my first greenie was a Hungarian and he actually came to me from the city that I had just served in, the branch that I had just served in, so, you know, I had gone to his family's house often when I was serving in that branch while he was preparing for his mission and then he came directly from there to the city where I had been transferred and we spent a couple of months together and he was great, you know, like you said, you know, just all the language practice that you get being with a native speaker is invaluable, so. Oh yeah, just like being able to speak the language all the time, not just when you're outside, you know, because when you get in the apartment you kind of want to like let your hair down and relax, but when you have that native speaker there, you kind of feel the, you have the impetus to like want to always speak the language so you can just like get really good at it, so yeah, but yeah, like after him, I think that's when I became a district leader in Calais and then that missionary, Elder Bertrand, he's such a great guy, he's from Arkansas, but the French pronounce it Arkansis, you know, it kind of makes sense, right? Kansas, Arkansis, but he's just a really good guy, you know, he kind of grew up in a farm life and he really struggled with the language, so that was a really hard contrast to go from having a companion that was absolutely 100% fluent to the companion where he just really struggled, and my mission president kind of specifically told me like Elder Bertrand, really hard worker, great guy, just struggling with the language right now, so just, he wanted me to spend like I think 30 minutes of our, our hour language time, but instead of spending it on myself, just spending it with him, so we would go over grammar or we'd go over vocabulary or just whatever questions he might have had, you know, just practicing and so he was, I could tell he really struggled and I could see myself in him a little bit, you know, thinking back to earlier on my mission and I'm just trying to encourage him, trying to, you know, be there for him, be like, don't worry man, like it's gonna come, you're gonna get it, and I met him, you know, a few months later and I'm, and his French was much better and I was like, see man, I told you, I told you you're gonna get it, it just takes time, so I was really happy to see that, and we, we had a good time, it was a good companionship, we struggled, I mean we struggled too, there's always stress on the mission, you know, you always want to find people to teach, you always want to make friends with the church members and every ward you meet, it always felt like I was, I was never that missionary that could just instantly connect with people, I wanted to be that missionary, but I also wanted to keep the rules, so the French are very social people, you know, they want to have dinner with you and talk for hours, you know, and stuff like that, or hang out and do things and I, we were supposed to only have like an hour or an hour and a half dinner meetings with them, but like, they would want to make it last longer and longer, so I think it kind of put a strain on a relationship with, with members because I would try to keep that hour and a half time limit, and also, I don't know if you, if in Hungarian it's the same, but like in French, you know, there's the formal kind of speech and there's the informal, so the formal is when you use for usually older people or people you want to keep as like business partners, and the informal is for close friends or younger people, things like that.
Yeah, Hungarian has the same distinction. Right, so we were told by our mission president like, doesn't matter who it is, you always use the formal, even if you're talking with like a two-year-old, you know. There were some missionaries that kind of had a problem with that, you know, I mean, I can kind of see why because if you think about it, it's like you're using the language that you would use for like your principal or your boss or a dignitary for like a small kid and that kind of just confused them most of the time, but you know, I was really, I really wanted to keep the rules, so I really focused on using the vous voye form, the formal form, and so it was that reason and the fact that I didn't like to roughhouse and, you know, I kind of tried to keep things formal, I was kind of separated from the members, but you know, I felt like keeping the rules was more important than, you know, connecting, you know, in that kind of way. Does that flow from your perfectionist tendencies or would you feel pressure to keep the rules out of fear of not being a successful missionary for not keeping the rules?
I think it was both. I really felt like that scripture in D&C, I can't remember what chapter is anymore, but it says like, you know, there's in heaven there's a law decreed that in every blessing from heaven is upon obedience to that law, so I really felt like if you keep all the rules in that white handbook, then God's going to bless you somehow, so I felt like being obedient was important, and you know, I wasn't perfect, of course, I had things that I was, I struggled with, I was, I'm always tardy, you know, even now, I struggle with being on time with anything, that was one of my big problems, and being neat and tidy and things like that, but yeah, I think it kind of, it was derived partially from my perfectionism, partially because I felt like that's what it meant to be a good missionary, is to just keep the rules, and yeah, you know, you get through it, I had some incidents in my mission, like we had a really long Christmas dinner, it was like my second transfer, and I kept telling my companion, I'm like, I think we should go now, like, we've been here for like four hours, so it was like close to midnight, or past midnight, or something like that, I'm like, alright, like, where's our ride, you know, we were waiting for someone to go to ride, we didn't even know who it was, you know, I was like, okay, I'm going to get kidnapped and probably die tonight, so I hope my family knows I love them, yeah, so lots of crazy stuff happened, but you know, for the most part, you know, we tried to be obedient as best we could. The whole time you were on your mission, were you still fairly certain that the LDS church was true? Were there any things that happened on your mission that caused you to doubt at all, or put cracks in kind of that wall of truthfulness? Yeah, that's a really great question.
So I don't really think so, I'd studied a lot of the problems, you know, like the issues with the church before my mission, you know, Book of Abraham and archaeology and things like that, and I don't know if it was fair at the time, it might have been farms or whatever the predecessor was, but I studied a lot of that material and I kind of felt like I had answers to my satisfaction at that time, so there was no real thing that you could bring up with me that really bothered me, you know, like even polygamy and Fanny Alger and stuff, like I'd read all that kind of stuff and I don't think I really thought about it deeply, you know, I kind of felt like, well, you know, that's things of the past, you know, I kind of found a way to put it on my shelf and not worry about it, so yeah, no, I didn't really have any cracks in my testimony during that mission, you know, it was very much focused on me and feeling unworthy and feeling like there were times where there were moments where I felt like God was close and God was protecting me and specific, there were specific events where I felt like God did protect me, there was one time where like I was being robbed by somebody and this guy that wasn't, we never taught him, but we just met him around town, you know, he'd be walking around town all the time with his dog, he just happened to be, you know, there at the time, you know, and he chased the guy that was trying to rob us with his dog, so he kind of chased him off, so that was kind of cool, I felt like that was kind of like a way of God telling me that he was there and he was watching over me, and you know, maybe that's still the case, I don't really know, but I try not to think about coincidences and stuff like that very deeply, but it could have been God's providence, but yeah, so no cracks, you know, I felt like my testimony was really strong and felt like every time I'd read the Bible or something, you know, I'd read it and be like, oh, you know, the church is true, it's so great, it's awesome, and you know, I was fully, you know, expecting to stay LDS my whole life, so I felt, you know, continued my mission, didn't really have any problems, I tried to work as hard as I could to the end, you know, I never really felt trunky, because, you know, the first few months I kind of felt that way because I just didn't get the language, I was just really struggling with the language, and then once I finally understood it, you know, like, it was, it wasn't easy and there were times where it was really hard, but, you know, I was, you know, overall I wanted to stay there on my mission, I really loved it. We thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the Outer Brightness Podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like. We also have an Outer Brightness group on Facebook, where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes, and suggestions for future episodes, et cetera. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness at gmail dot com.
We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Casts, PodBeam, Spotify, and Stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel, and if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and spread the word. You can also connect with Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist, at from water to wine dot org, where he blogs, and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well. Music for the Outer Brightness Podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com.
Stay bright, Flyerflies. Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed and have come to know that you are the holy one of God. The word made fresh, the risen song, heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. Lord, you promised that we, as your church, would remain upon this rock, and the gates of hell will not prevail against us, cause you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. Heaven and earth will pass away, cause you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Lord, we hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. The word of our God through ages remains, the word of God remains.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-10-31 14:40:35 / 2023-10-31 15:04:17 / 24