Identity In Mormon OR In CHRIST Part 3

You're entering outer brightness.

Welcome back to the Outer Brightness Podcast. This week, the Sons of Light round out a discussion on how the concept of identity relates to their faith journeys. In the first part, they discuss how their sense of self has changed since going through their faith transition, if they would say they are still Mormon in any sense, and what the Bible has to say about identity.

Let's get into it. Since your faith transition, how has your sense of self changed? So I kind of described how the cracks formed in my sense of identity before and how they kind of shattered and all the pieces were, you know, I was staring at the pieces essentially and kind of didn't know where to go. It's interesting because it's like when I felt like my faith had finally collapsed, you know, my shelf collapsed due to the weight of all these historical things I'd been reading and how it just countered everything I've been taught in the church and finding out that the church itself had actually changed, you know, some of its history, you know, kind of modified it over time to fit the changing narrative and the doctrine. I was like, okay, well, I got to like, you know, I felt like I was gonna have a mental breakdown. I think I did at some point. And when kind of the dust settled, I'm like, okay, I got to figure out, you know, like to me, I considered agnosticism or atheism for like a very short period of time, you know. It was like maybe like a few days. I was like not seriously considering it but just like saying, okay, everything's on the table now.

Let's look at my options. And I thought about it and I thought about experiences I had on my mission. Like there were times where, you know, I thought I was in mortal danger at certain points and I felt like God protected me. I also felt like I just felt God's presence in my life and so I was just like, well, I can't accept atheism.

That's just crazy. So, it's like I looked at those pieces that I felt like I could still identify myself with and I looked at those pieces and I picked them back up. And so, it was kind of like slowly bit by bit taking those shattered pieces and trying to reintegrate them into who I was. And so, one of those pieces was that, well, I feel like Christ is Lord, He's my Savior. I was like I'm not really sure what that means right now, you know, because I'm not sure what I believe anymore but you know, I believe that to be true and the Bible is like going to be my foundation. And so, I'm just going to study that for now and see where it takes me. I didn't really know where it was going to take me, so I want to start studying that. So it was reshaping things I learned in the past, this idea of being a child of God.

Well, what does that mean? Well, we learn in John chapter one that to those who believe in Christ, to them, He gave power to become children of God. So I wasn't a child by literal birth but I was a child by adoption or I could or at least at the time, I believed that I could become a child by adoption.

I wasn't sure if I was or not, you know. So I was slowly trying to reintegrate these parts into myself by comparing them to the Bible and trying to see, you know, some things I wasn't quite sure about. I still had a hard time separating out everything I learned as a Latter-day Saint, so it kind of took a little bit of deconstruction of what I believed before still. Even though all the pieces shattered, you know, when you hear a certain word as a Latter-day Saint like Christ, Son of God, priesthood, salvation, you have these connotations in your mind that have been graphed, you know, they've been beaten into you since you're a kid. So it just took time to slowly learn, okay, well, what do other people think about this?

What does the Bible say about this? And so, and then it wasn't just like throwing everything out and starting brand new, I had to slowly read the scriptures and say, okay, these parts of LDS doctrine, those are okay and those seem to line up with what scripture says. And so it was really the Bible that was kind of my bedrock that I was trying to rebuild my identity on because I felt like if I didn't have something to build on, I didn't want to go through what I did in high school where I spent years and years trying to quote unquote fight myself, try to find direction and find purpose.

And so some may listen and say, well, you know, you just clung onto the Bible because that's all you had and you know, you don't really know if the Bible is true or not. And I could see that criticism being made but at the same time, I've really studied it out, you know, tried to think through it logically and also pray for guidance and help and like I'm always testing, you know, iron sharpens iron, not just you know, with each other but I think with yourself. I'm always trying to test myself and say, is what I believe logical?

Is it consistent with the world around me? You know, it's easy to become myopic and just say, well, you know, I need something to grasp onto so I'm going to believe this thing and that's going to give me purpose in life. What I wanted to do is I wanted to have something that gave me purpose that was actually consistent with reality. And so, that's what I'm always trying to do, is always trying to test it and I'm not trying to say that other views of the gospel and scripture are illogical but I found in my study and in my journey, when I went through the tenets of Reformed theology, like it just and lining it up with scripture, it just clicked for me, you know, like it was just like going through a list of you know, logical operators in my brain and I'm like, okay, this lines up with this, that means this, that means this and they can deduce it from there. And it just clicked for me and that's kind of where it seemed like all the pieces fell into place once I started learning from people like RC Sproul and John MacArthur and even then I was starting to recognize, okay, well, I disagree with this person on this aspect but I still find worth in what he teaches here.

And so, from there, it's like, you know, building your, building myself up again from there. And so, that's how, that's kind of how I changed and how I saw, I started to see myself not as a child of God by literal birth but when I finally, you know, when I got to a point where I was so stressed out not knowing if I was saved or not knowing what to believe and I just, you know, I was just forced to my knees and prayed to God for forgiveness and help and just prayed for salvation and I felt at that moment, that's when I felt that God had truly adopted me as a son and had given me that reassurance and that calm and that peace I was looking for. And so, since then, my identity was reshaped to know that I'm an adopted child of God, that I don't have to worry about the wrath of God on me anymore and that I'm in his family and that I can trust in him, I can go to him for help and guidance and so, that's kind of how my identity has been shaped since then.

So, when I was saved, it was about 2016 and I was still kind of confused after that but then, about 2017-2018 is when I started really feeling like, okay, this is where I'm supposed to be right now. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

That's good. Michael, you mentioned earlier that you played off the I am a child of God song and Matthew just kind of touched on the difference in kind of viewing yourself as a child of God by literally or by adoption. Was that sort of your – did you have a shift like that in your thinking with regard to that particular doctrine as well as you went through your faith transition and relation to your sense of self or how was that for you? You know, I mean, a lot of what Matthew was talking about really resonated with me because it just – it was so familiar.

You know, I mean, he talked about the pieces and that definitely is how I felt too. Like I had just been shattered into a million pieces after my transition and I remember he talked a little bit earlier about being afraid of where he was going to end up. Was he going to end up atheist or whatever? And I think for me, what scared me is that I was never going to end up anything, that I was just going to stay in this constant state of never being able to find my footing ever again, that I was just going to maybe find it for a minute and then I was going to lose it and I was just never going to land, you know. But I finally kind of hit rock bottom and I was thinking, okay, well, I've pretty much lost my salvation. I'm going to outer darkness now because I still kind of in my heart feared leaving the church, feared that there was going to be eternal outer darkness awaiting me as an apostate and then somebody gave me the book, The Prodigal God and so I started reading that and that really helped me realize that I identified with the older brother in that parable, that I was basically using the father as a means to an end, you know, trying to play nice and play by the rules only with the intent to acquire an inheritance. But I wasn't in a right relationship and, you know, I appeared to be righteous but I wasn't and that was a game changer for me. That was one of the big things but you're right, I started to identify not as a literal child of God but as an adopted child of God and I think when you're LDS, you really play up the literal child of God card and you think that being adopted just isn't, it's not as good, it's not as valuable to be adopted. But I see it totally the opposite now, you know, because I see that God is a holy and righteous God and He's not like us at all and yet, He adopts us anyway, even though we don't have a birthright to it, even though we can't measure up to Him in any way, it's like why would, you know, you almost wonder why would He adopt us but He did anyway and it's amazing, it's just the way I view that relationship is completely different to you because, you know, before it was like, okay, well, you know, if I do something to displease Him, He will turn His back on me until I come back and I'm the bigger man and I repent but now, God's always the bigger man, He's the one that is able to love me unconditionally no matter what I do. I think when I was LDS, I really identified with my shortcomings, my failures and my sin because those things were more powerful than God's love was for me. But now, you know, I identify completely with Christ, I identify with His righteousness rather than my own and, you know, it was really tough because one of the things that happened during my transition is all my idols were just ripped away from me. My eternal family was ripped away, you know, I mean, even my earthly family, I mean, I went through that divorce and I'm just like, man, everything that I think I was naturally inclined to hold on to and probably elevate higher than God, it was just taken away from me until I got to the point where I just had no choice but to make Christ the foundation that I stood on and I was really rebellious against Him and it's, you know, I thought that I was righteous and I was following Christ and really, it took this experience to open my eyes to the fact that, you know, I fought it tooth and nail, I basically was adopted, you know, kicking and screaming and then I'm adopted, I'm like, oh my goodness, this is amazing, you know, I'm so glad that God snatched me up and adopted me. So, yeah, I mean, really, I mean, I look at all the things that I held dear when I was a Latter-day Saint, you know, my eternal family, the temple, my priesthood, all of those things, you know, Christ is all of those things to me now, you know, Christ is my temple, He is my priesthood, He's my worthiness.

I don't need any of those other things because Christ, the person of Christ is enough for me. Wow. Yeah, that's powerful stuff, Michael. I just found myself as you were talking and saying, you know, various things, just nodding my head in agreement and, you know, especially like you said when you were LDS that you identified more with your sin and that is still my experience as well. I was trying to think back, thinking about this question and how I would answer and I was trying to think back and remember, have I talked about when I was arrested? I have not heard that story, but I'm intrigued. Okay.

Okay. So, you may not be as interested after I tell it, but it's a fun story anyway. So, a few months ago, the friend from my childhood friend who was along on this ride with me, I found out that he is a born again Christian and just, you know, very outspoken about his faith and his reliance on Jesus on Facebook and when I saw that and became Facebook friends with him, it was just one of those times of rejoicing for me because, you know, when we were kids, we got into a lot of trouble together. I mean, we did normal stuff. We played video games. We, you know, pitched baseball in the backyard and played basketball in the driveway and stuff like that, but we got into trouble.

You know what I mean? We were mischievous kids. Like we went to another middle school when they were having an evening concert and sat in the back because our friend was in the chorus that was singing that night and me and this other friend of mine sat in the back. It was one of those auditoriums that's like a quarter circle with the big carpeted steps. I'm sure you've seen those in schools and we sat at the top of those steps and just like through paper airplanes to the point where, you know, the principal came and found us and then, you know, got us in trouble at our own middle school the next day.

But that's the kind of kids we were, we were just constantly getting into trouble. But this one time we were, his parents had gone out of town and me and my other friend each told our parents, you know, we all told our parents, well, I'm going to spend the night here, he's going to spend, you know, the way that it worked out is we ended up spending the night at this friend's house whose parents were out of town. My parents thought I was spending the night somewhere else. My other friend's parents thought he was spending the night somewhere else, you know. And actually we were all supposed to be spending the night at my place, but we ended up spending the night at this friend's house whose parents were out of town.

And we're there and we're watching movies and, you know, just hanging out. And there was this kid who lived across the street that when we would be playing basketball in the driveway, he would throw rocks at us and we would grab, you know, the tomatoes that had fallen off of the vines in my friend's garden and were, you know, soft and mushy on the ground. We'd grab those and throw them at him and they would stain his shirt and his parents would get mad because we stained his shirt. And but it was like this rivalry, like this kid, like just constantly bugging us, you know.

He was a few years younger than us and it was one of those things I think where he wanted to be part of the group and he wasn't part of our group and, you know, it just was not a good situation. So this night that we were at my friend's house, we're sitting around watching movies and my friend decides he's going to make some Campbell's soup to eat and he burned it. And his mom was a single mom and she would get upset with him if he wasted food because she, you know, she was struggling to get by and so he was determined to find a way to salvage the soup to make it edible because he had scorched it and it tasted awful. So he started, you know, putting different kinds of spices in it to try to make it taste so he could eat it and not get in trouble for wasting food. And it just got out of hand, you know, like it got to the point where he realized he wasn't going to be able to salvage it. So then he just got silly, you know what I mean? Like he's putting WD-40 in it from under the sink and, you know, all kinds of stuff. He ends up urinating in it at one point and it just escalated, you know, and got crazy. And then he decides, I'm going to run out and I'm going to dump it on Michael's parents' car, which was parked on the street, across the street, you know. And me and my other friends told him, no, don't do it.

Are you kidding me? They'll know it's us. Like, we're always messing with this kid.

Don't do it. And he runs out the door anyway and does it, you know, and comes back. And then of course we're at the place where we have to figure out, okay, what are we going to do now?

We can't be here because we're not supposed to be here and we need to have a story, right? So we go to my other friend, his sister lived two houses down. So we go down to her place and we tell her, you know, hey, we're all spending the night at Paul's place, take us to the movie store so we can rent a movie. So she drives us to the movie store. We rent a movie, take it back to my house. We watch the movie at my house. We spend the night at my house.

We think we've got our alibi, right? We've been at my, my dad's going to vouch for us that we've been at my house all night. You know, my other friend's sister will vouch for us that she took us to the movie store, you know? So we're at my house the next, it was Saturday night, next day, Sunday, right? My dad comes down to the basement and says, you know, okay, boys, you know, tells my friends they got to go home, tells me that the police are there and want to talk to us all. So Sunday morning we've got a police car sitting outside of our house in the middle of, you know, West Jordan, Utah, Mormon ward, everybody in the neighborhood is in the ward, right? So everybody's walking to church, you know, doing their thing, walking past a police car sitting out front of my house.

And long story short, they, they end up not believing our alibi because my friend, as he had run back from dumping the concoction on the neighbor's car, had held the pot upside down as he was running and left a trail of the stuff from the car into his driveway, kept the front walk to the front door and in the sink was the pot. And by this time his parents had come home from their overnight out of town. And you know, so we, we all ended up getting arrested and released to directly to the cognizance of our parents.

And we, you know, were ordered to appear in juvenile court, you know, like a month out kind of thing. And my parents did what I guess any, any good Latter-day Saint parents would do. They were like, well, get ready for church.

You're going to have to talk to the Bishop about this. So that morning I sit in the Bishop's office with my parents talking about what happened. And you know, I'm trying to plead my case and say, you know, look, me and this other guy, we tried to stop him. We didn't want it to happen, you know, he, he did it, you know, and the police didn't, you know, the police believed us, but made the case to us that, Hey, you know, if you're, if you're with some friends at the mall and they shoplift something, you're still going to get in trouble because you're with them, you're, you're an accessory, right?

So that's the way we were treated by the law. And the way that the Bishop handled it was to tell me that, you know, I needed to refrain from taking the sacrament for a period of time that he would determine. And I didn't think that that was appropriate because from my perspective, I had tried to stop him.

I had tried to encourage my friend to do the right thing. Why would, you know, I, I didn't come up with the idea to vandalize, so why would, why would I not partake of the sacrament, you know? And it, it was a situation and an experience that kind of put in my mind that the whole idea of, you know, you have to be worthy to take the sacrament. In that instance, I didn't feel like I was unworthy, but it was, it was a communal view that I would be unworthy because the police car was out in front of my house on a Sunday morning.

Right? It was really a keeping up of appearances where I don't take the sacrament for a period of time. And it looks like for the community, I'm going through a repentance process. And it kind of, it kind of made me mad because it, it kind of reinforced to me that this whole worthiness thing is one, it's, it's untenable.

You can't do it. And two, it's in, in some cases it's for keeping up appearances. It's really not for the individual and it doesn't, it doesn't help the individual in, in the way that the church kind of, the LDS church kind of presents it as being a help to the individual. So that's, that's my, that's my experience of, of getting arrested. But that experience, it led me to have a lot of guilt, you know, the rest of my adolescent years in the LDS church and my adult years as well, right? Because again, it's, it's this sense of self. You want, you want to keep up appearances of, I'm this worthy person.

I'm, I'm, you know, obedient, I'm doing everything that I can and, and anything that might make you look unworthy, you know, you try to hide and not show anybody, right? So there's no authentic, I didn't feel like there was opportunity for authentic sharing between Christian brothers in the LDS church saying, hey, here's something I struggle with, you know? And then that Christian brother coming alongside you and walking with you through that and, and not judging you, but, you know, encouraging you and, and, and building you up and lifting you up in prayer, you know, all of the things that we experience now as Christians, it just wasn't there. It was, you don't take the sacrament and you, you know, you show to the community that you're pious or you don't refrain from taking the sacrament and you feel a bunch of guilt, right?

Because you know, you're taking it unworthily, right? And you know what the verses say about, you know, that the LDS church uses to put that pressure on you to not take on worthy, not partake on worthy. So in terms of how my sense of self has changed since my faith transition, I experienced a lot less guilt. I have, I have peace in knowing that my sins are forgiven.

I'm not perfect. I make mistakes, but there's a peace in knowing that, that there's no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus. Tanner Iskra Did you feel like when your Bishop said you couldn't take the sacrament, maybe not that time, but maybe any other time, you know, when you felt like you needed healing, spiritual healing, you needed forgiveness, you needed Christ to be near you. Did you feel like when they cut you off from the sacrament that they were doing the exact opposite of what you felt that you needed at that time? You know, do you feel like they were separating you from Christ?

David Tenenbaum No, I don't think I would have, would have viewed it that way in, at the time. But I, in that instance and the other, I think I shared the other experience where I, I ended up having a small drink right before my mission papers were supposed to go in. In both of those instances, there was a period of time where I was instructed not to partake of the sacrament. And in both instances, I felt like it was more for the benefit of the community than it was for me.

Because in both instances, there were people who knew within the community that, you know, if I would be taking the sacrament, I would be doing it unworthily, right. And it just, it just felt like it was, it was for that purpose, not for, for helping me come to repentance. Tanner Iskra Because, and yeah, like, can you, like you said- David Tenenbaum It felt like, it felt like punishment rather than a way of helping me. Tanner Iskra Okay, because it sounded like what you're explaining is that in the first case you didn't really feel like it was really your fault or you really had sinned, right?

If I understood your story correctly, like you're trying to stop your friend from doing that. And he did it anyway. David Tenenbaum Yeah.

Yeah. Tanner Iskra And then with the drink, it probably wasn't that big a deal. So I'm guessing, I don't know, how, how did you feel about that? David Tenenbaum When I, so about that, I, I did feel like it was something I shouldn't have done because I was preparing for a mission and, you know, I was supposed to be living the word of wisdom, all of that kind of thing. I did feel bad about having done that. But yeah, in the first instance, you know, when I got arrested, I, I didn't feel like I had done something wrong there. So I didn't understand why I was being asked not to partake of the sacrament.

Tanner Iskra Okay. I asked that because there had been times where I was asked not to take the sacrament and there were times when I was, were struggling with, with particular things. And it felt like, you know, it felt like they were cutting me off from grace and it's like, okay, you've done this terrible sin, you know, so we're going to cut you off from Christ and now you've got to put in the legwork. And then once you put in enough legwork, then we'll let you back, we'll, we'll let you take the sacrament again. And then you can, you can find Jesus again. You know, that's kind of how I felt because I felt like the sacrament was part of, it's like part of your spiritual healing, you know, and it's like to say, you can't have that when I needed it the most was just like a shot to the stomach, you know, it's like, okay, well, so now I've got this sin I got to deal with and I can't take the sacrament.

It's like, okay, how about you just chop off my legs and poke out my eyes? Yeah. Yeah.

Cause it's like, oh, now I have to repent without God's help. Right. Basically. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

All right. So short answer on this one, Michael, you first, would you say that you are still Mormon in some sense? Is it still a part of your identity?

Do you think it is absolutely still a part of my identity? I mean, when you're something, when you're a Mormon for, you know, over three decades, there's aspects of that that aren't going to go away. I mean, just, you know, just the way that I'm, you know, was raised to I guess, to discuss theology too, you know, like all that time I spent on the mission.

I mean, that's, that's still, you know, a lot of times how I approach things. But you know, it's something that I've said a lot of, a lot is that I really view Mormonism as the family that I was born into and Christianity is the family that I married into. So I do still view Mormonism as my family. So I think, I think culturally, you know, I have a little bit of a, was a connection there to Mormonism. In fact, I'm planning to go to, to pioneer day this year because, you know, like that's my heritage. It's still my heritage.

Yeah. So, you know, I don't, I don't see any reason, you know, just to stay away from that. I'm not, I'm not ashamed of it, but I mean, that's part of my journey and that's who, that's what made me who I am today, but you know, I'm grateful for it because having been in it and then coming out, it's just, it just helps me understand grace so much more than if I hadn't been in the church at all. So I think there's a lot of good things that they came out of the church and you know, the things that are good, I still hold, hold onto, but the things that aren't, I've moved on.

Yeah, good. Matthew, what about you? Yeah, I would also say that I tried to integrate and take the pieces that, that I felt were good and keep them and then reject the rest. But as far as the term Mormon, I don't know, it's hard to describe. It's like, it's like Michael said, you, you always feel this kind of connection with them because I'm sure if I were to go to a Latter-day Saint service right now, you know, despite, despite the fact that I believe differently from them and I believe it's a different gospel, keeping a different God, there's something, there's some innate feeling in you that gets reawakened, I guess, if I were to go to a Latter-day Saint service and sit in on it, you know, it would remind me of all those childhood memories of my past and my mission and you know, it kind of brings up all those memories. And so I, you definitely can't just completely sever yourself from that, from your past from, because it's part of who you are, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't call myself Mormon just because I think personally, I think that means that you are an active Latter-day Saint. You know, it's, it gets, it gets dicey too, because, you know, there are people that are not of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the mainline church who are still part of that kind of overarching Mormon movement. And I, when I was a Latter-day Saint, maybe I was just kind of stuck up, I don't know, but I was like, oh, well, they're not Mormon. You know, if you're not part of the true church, then you're something else. You're something close to what we believe, but you just, you don't, it's like you either have all of it or you don't. So, so yeah, I don't know.

I'm not sure I would call myself Mormon, but I do still feel that connection to the Mormon community for sure. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I resonate a little bit with both of, both of you. I'd say, you know, it's part of my story and you know, it always will be, I can't, can't lop off my arm, so I can't lop off that part of my story either, you know. So it's going to be, it's going to be with me in various ways for the rest of my life.

My, you know, I have family who are still Latter-day Saints and friends who are still Latter-day Saints. And so, you know, there's always going to be an aspect of my relationships that will have that at play. So the next thing I want to talk about is, you know, does the Bible have something to say about identity?

If so, what? Let's talk about that. And then, you know, last time we talked about salvation. So let's tie that all up with what we've talked about today about identity. Matthew, you want to go first?

Yeah. So Paul spoke in Philippians 1. He says, for to me to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yeah, which I shall choose I cannot tell.

I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ for that is far better. So he's being pulled, you know, between these two sides of wanting to be here and continuing his labor and wanting to be with Christ. But either way, he feels like to die would be to enter eternal life and to be with God because that's where he belongs. That's where he wants to end up.

That's where he will end up. He's confident in the fact that he's redeemed. And then John 1, I'd spoken about earlier, verse 9, the true light which gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world and the world was made through him, this is speaking of Christ, yet the world did not know him.

He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. So we see, as we've been talking about all along, children of God are those who are adopted through faith in Christ. And this is reiterated in Galatians chapter three, and Paul speaking to fellow Jews prior to their faith and coming into faith, he says, Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as are baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise. So we see this continually throughout Scripture.

We see Paul associating himself, not by – he does distinguish himself as Jew, but we see him constantly affirming that if you have faith in Christ, you are in Christ, and you are one of God's people, and you are heirs according to the promise given to Abraham. And we see all throughout Scripture also that Christ commands us to die and to live unto him. Luke 14 verse 32, he says, If not – oh, sorry, verse 33, Therefore any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 16, 24-28, Then Jesus told his disciples, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?

Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. So with these ideas, we're born as sinners, and we're born really rebellious to God. And so what we're called to do is we're called to die to our sins, we're called to lay down our lives, we're called to pick up our crosses and follow the Lord.

And so our identity is there's this twofold view of who we are. We're born sinners, and we never really get rid of that sinful nature in this life. We're born as sinners, but instead of remaining as rebellious sinners against God, God calls us to repentance and trust in Christ.

And if we do that, then by God's grace, we're transformed from rebellious sinners against God to transform believers and disciples of Christ. On three, I wanted also a quote, so this is when Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus. Jesus answered him, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old?

Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born? Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. And then we get that classic passage, For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. And so, not only are we called to die to our former selves, we're called to be born again in Christ. And it's through Christ alone that we can become born again, we become new creations in him.

We can become children. The phrase being born again really explains it perfectly. That's our identity. As I quoted in Galatians 3, there are distinctions between us.

It's not like where we completely lose all distinctions. But when we're together as the body of Christ, that's who we are. We are the body of Christ. And so that's kind of, when I read scripture, that's what Paul and all the writers of the New Testament, and even in the Old Testament, you see them, they're trying to call people to follow God and love God, place our hearts and our desires in him, rather than trying to fight over who is following this disciple. Well, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, and everybody's quarreling and fracturing. And we're always called to have unity, and we're called to remember that who we are is that we're children of God, in the sense that we're born again Christians, we've died to our sin, and we live for Christ. And that's how we should identify ourselves first, above all other things.

We're still citizens of our countries, we're still fathers, husbands, brothers, etc. We don't forget all those, but we have to remember that our foundation and of our identity should be rooted in Christ. Yeah. Great stuff, Matthew. Thank you. Michael, what do you think? Well, Matthew used some of the verses that I was going to use, which is okay. There were a couple of other verses I just want to bring up, too, that I really like.

In Matthew chapter 10 verse 30, Jesus says that the very hairs of our head are numbered. And one of the things I really like about that verse is, to me, it just shows the kind of love that God has for us to, I don't know, care about something like that, that you wouldn't think about, necessarily. I mean, when I was LDS, I'm like, oh, I think what God takes notice of is if I'm paying my tithing or not, right, or how well am I keeping the word of wisdom?

But I feel like there's just this deeper love that he has for his children than that. I kind of like what Matthew was saying, too, about dying to ourselves and living for Christ. And that sentiment is there in John 3.30 where it says, he must increase, but I must decrease. And so that focus needs to go away from ourselves and it needs to go to Christ, like Matthew was saying.

But one of the passages I just wanted to read real quick is 1 John verses 15 through 19 says, whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love and whoever abides in love abides in God and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment because as he is, so also we are in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. Our fear has to do with punishment and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

We love because he first loved us. And the reason I'm sharing this passage is, you know, back when we were LDS, you know, or when I was LDS, I was fearful of judgment a lot because of things that I did. And that's because the focus that I had was on myself. That if my focus is on God and his love for me, there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ. And so if I really believe that he has that kind of unconditional love for me, it takes away that fear of judgment. So that's one that stood out to me. Thanks, Michael. That's a good word there for sure.

I've just got a couple that came to mind. So one of the things I like to think about is if you take the Bible as a whole and look at the whole arc of salvation history, there are passages where we're told about what God has planned as a new heaven and a new earth. And the idea there is that what salvation is bringing is a consummation of the potential of Eden, right, and having peace with God and communion with God directly. And for that reason, I really like 2 Corinthians 5.17, where Paul writes, you know, therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.

The old has passed away, behold, the new has come. And also really like Galatians 2.20, when it comes to identity, where Paul writes, you know, I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. And also really like John 1.12, but to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God. And both you, Matthew and Michael, have talked about the biblical concept of adoption, which is also, you know, touched on in Romans chapter 8, which Michael, you touched on, I believe. But you know, you were quoting from 1 John, but Romans 8.15, Paul makes a similar point where he says, you know, for you do not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry Abba, Father. And I think back to, you know, we've touched on this difference, right, between being a child of God, literally the way the Latter-day Saint theology presents it, versus being adopted children of God, the way the Bible presents it. And I think back to when I was LDS, you know, there's this sense in which Latter-day Saints would say, oh, our theology is better, our view of God is better, because everyone is literally a child of God, right, and therefore he's our Father and he's approachable. But the soteriology, where you have to make yourself worthy and rid yourself of all ungodliness, makes him utterly unapproachable, which is, in some ways, consonant with a view of a holy God, right, but the practice, the praxis of the LDS church leaves, it left me feeling like I could never measure up, I would never be worthy. I would continue to make mistakes, and those mistakes would always be tallied up on the ledger that would make me unworthy ultimately. And with Christ, I just don't have that, right? With the biblical teaching of being adopted as a son, I have the love of God, I have peace with God, and the love of God is mine now, and it's just a wholly different identity that I have now than I had before. Amen.

Good stuff. Amen. I didn't want to jump in and cut you off, but I had a thought earlier. Like, thinking back to LDS theology, they want a God that's so close to them, you know, they make him literally their literal father, and they make him a man just like they are. So it's like they want this closeness, because he's just like they are. But at the same time, like you said, I felt like I was always never good enough, I was never living up to his expectations. So it almost makes it more cruel if you think about it, because he's almost exactly like you, and yet you're never good enough for him, even though you're almost exactly like he is. Do you know what I mean? So it's like being criticized or being put down for what he is, or something close to what he is.

Do you know what I mean? Whereas in Christianity, like you've said, God is so much higher and holier and separate from us, so it makes sense that he's just and he's holy, but he still condescends, he still shows mercy, he still adopts. So it's like he's less inclined to help us, because he doesn't have to.

He's not our literal father, he's not forced to do that for us, but he does so out of pure love and not by quote unquote bloodline or DNA, because he's our literal progenitor. So I don't know, I don't know if any of that's making sense, but it was just some thoughts that I had earlier that I thought I would throw out there. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. I mean, the God of Mormonism, I mean, it almost feels like he has to occasionally pay child support reluctantly, you know, because we're his offspring. But yeah, I mean, you're right, the Christian God is reaching across a much wider chasm. You know, it does seem really odd in Mormonism for God to just, you know, give us the cold shoulder because we're really not that far behind him.

If that's true, I mean, we're just escaping a rock's throw down the way. Yeah, that's what made me think of that. I think it was when you were talking about that earlier.

I was like, yeah, God really isn't that much different from you in LDS theology, but then why is he so critical of me, you know? That's a wrap on this episode. Next week, we have a double feature for you. We'll be releasing an episode entitled Wisdom for the LDS Missionary.

That is the first in a Dear Younger Me themed series that we'll return to occasionally. Additionally, we'll be releasing a special guest interview. Plan to listen in, fireflies. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the Outer Brightness Podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like. We also have an Outer Brightness group on Facebook where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes, and suggestions for future episodes, etc. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness at gmail dot com.

We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Casts, PodBeam, Spotify, and Stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel, and if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen, and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael the Ex-Mormon Apologist at fromwater2wine.org, where he blogs, and sometimes Paul and Matthew do, as well.

Music for the Outer Brightness Podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com. Stay Bright, Flyer Flies. The word made French, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. Lord, you promised that we, as your church, would remain. Upon this rock and the gates of hell, will not prevail against us.

Because you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains.

As the rain falls down from heaven, and waters heat earth, bringing it light. For the word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty, but does what you desire. Lord, we hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is in decay, but the word of our God through ages remains. The word of God remains.