What About The SACRAMENTS? Part 1

Your right and this article C states. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administering the ordinances thereof as a child who grew up in Utah and in the church technically convert at the age of 10. I grew up being taught that there are certain fundamental concepts that must be believed to be a part of the true church of Jesus Christ upon the earth.

One of these concepts was to have the proper priesthood and to receive the proper ordinances or else one could not have salvation. What made me seriously consider receiving baptism as a child my family and I rent a waterpark.

I was thinking about all the kids my age who were speaking of their baptisms preparing for baptism, etc. and I guess with all that water around us. It was just on my mind. I asked my parents so I can't get to heaven if I'm not baptized to have to be baptized. If I want to be with God. They told me that yes you need to be baptized to get to heaven because of having a lot of influence in my thoughts at the time I didn't really know the implications of that fully but I remember seeing movies like all dogs go to heaven where heaven is shown is this place of happiness and rest with all the puppies and it sounded like a place I wanted to be. I didn't want to miss out on so I talked my parents will be baptized and we ask LDS missionaries to teach me because I was over the age of eight and I needed to receive the lessons over course of several weeks and months I was taught the original LDS discussions. I don't member a lot about them, other than the flipcharts pictures of the celestial kingdom, etc. after sitting through the lessons of being interviewed by the bishop and stake president I was recommended for baptism at the age of 10 I was baptized and confirmed by my uncle the same day as my sister went turned eight. Not too long before my family was really exciting for me and I was content with the idea that I was making them proud and being able to be with God in the as I started to question my beliefs in high school and turned to. A lesser activity in the church, things weren't as important to me. I became possibly agnostic or atheist for short time, but after feeling convicted of my sins around the age of 19, I return to full activity after studying LDS theology and history. One distinctive doctrine that made me seriously consider remaining active in the church and serving a mission was the cause of the priesthood and priesthood ordinances. The importance of it was conveyed to me in a story from LDS apostle Orson F. Whitney, which was quoted in LeGrand Richards seminal book, a marvelous work and a wonder the story is as follows quote many years ago, a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke for the Stan of Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well acquainted with him and we conversed freely and frankly a great scholar with perhaps a dozen language is tongues and he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy when they said to me you Mormons are all ignoramuses you don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there's only one other tenable in the whole Christian world and that is the position of the Catholic Church issues between Catholicism and Mormonism. We are right you are wrong. If you are right we are wrong and that's all there is to it. The Protestant summons a leg to stand on.

For if we are wrong they are wrong with us.

They were a part of us that went out from us, while if we are right, they are apostates and we cut off long ago.

If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter as we claim there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. But if we have not that succession in such amount as Joseph Smith was necessary and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent what is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times or the restoration of the gospel in latter days" after reading a story to me. It boiled down to one of two churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the Roman Catholic Church. So I decided to study the great apostasy by James E.

Talmadge, another LDS apostle. Upon reading this book and learning of the Roman Catholic Church's practices of infant baptism. Transubstantiation, the Trinity, being a doctor and a group out of Gnosticism, which wasn't true at all but this is what was started by Talmage.

It was so clear to me at the time the Roman Catholic Church had fulfilled the prophecy given in Isaiah 24 five. The earth lies defiled under its inhabitants, for they have transgressed the laws violated the statutes broken the everlasting covenant since it had broken the covenant by baptizing babies and believing they were literally eating the body and blood of Jesus and the mass that only left one option to me. The LDS church.

It must be true. When I learned that Joseph Smith and Oliver County restored the practice of baptism for believers only, and confirmation. The laying on of hands to allow entry to the celestial kingdom and of the sacrament of the Lord's supper for the continued remission of sins by authority that was restored to John the Baptist and the apostle Peter, James and John. I was convinced, however, over the years I've learned many of these claims just want true. Isaiah 24 five wasn't speaking of the Roman Catholic Church performing for baptism is speaking of God's punishment of all the world because of the sin of Adam in the garden of Eden, Adam broke the covenant with God and disobeying him and thus all men are found guilty, and Adam unless they turn to Jesus Christ in faith. While I still deny the doctrine of transubstantiation.

I don't believe a special priesthood power for the apostles as needed to bless and receive the Lord's supper, also known as the sacrament in the other search or for water baptism. The topic of ordinances also call sacraments by many Christians is a topic that is difficult to understand for those who are LDS or leaving LDS church.

How many ordinances sacraments are there. What purpose do they serve. Why do you need them. If you're saved by grace alone through faith alone. These questions and more will be discussed in this episode while the topic of the ordinances or sacraments of the Church of Jesus Christ can be discussed in very great detail. Over the course of many episodes we will do our best to introduce the differences between the ordinances of the LDS church and the ordinances of the Christian church. We are Matthew, the nuclear Calvinist squirrel Jedi Michael the ex-Mormon Mr. Hyde apologist and grandpa Bunyan. Let's get into it when you were a latter-day St., what was your understanding of the ordinances or sacraments in non-LDS Christianity and was there anything confusing about them. So Michael will start with you when I was LDS and I looked at non-LDS Christians and the ordinances that they performed. I didn't really understand why they were doing them knew that they did baptism. And I thought that that was all well and good from an obedience standpoint, but because there was no priesthood attached to it and there was no covenant attached to it to receive eternal life. I thought the you that baptism. For instance, was completely useless and I thought that their communion was completely useless because it didn't renew said covenant so I could kind of appreciate that they were trying to do it because they didn't have the light and knowledge of the restored gospel. I thought that those actions were sorely lacking and that it wasn't to be sufficient to bring them to the celestial kingdom like us and you. I just kinda thought it was maybe a good talking point for us to lead somebody to the gospel, but those pretty much the only's the only purpose that they served. And so with baptism when you looked at non-LDS Christians in terms of baptism, did you, so it's a similar thing with the sacrament you see saw that it was kind of like a it didn't really do anything to grant them eternal life's a set of sod's, something it was ineffectual or ineffective or pointless for the most part, you know, I mean, I didn't think those things were commandments and the fact that those churches were doing those things was a step in the right direction. I would judge them more if they weren't doing them. To be honest, but yet in order to grant salvation. The work they didn't qualify saving ordinances okay thank you so how do you ball what you think about this question to answer the question.

Growing up in Utah. I think my my main site into what other churches were doing was through my dad because he was a convert.

So, he would talk about when we would have liked family home evening.

Certainly not every week a woman would have family home evening he would talk about some of the differences between his growing up as a Lutheran and his faith is a letter saying he would talk about how he was christened as a Lutheran is a baby and how that's different than being baptizes as someone who's a believer in choosing to do so and I remember being a little bit confused as a child about the whole concept of the age of accountability.

Note just to think an arbitrary to me that somewhere is years old, I would be able to grasp right and wrong. I kind of wondered. Like on my birthday. What I miraculously receive what to measure wisdom, but I didn't have before Noah's computer with me to think about things in those terms. And beyond you. Learning about Lutheranism by way of my dad know Utah at the time, especially since changing more and more time associate was heavily LDS and so I didn't have much interaction with anyone who was very many people who were not of my faith and certainly not in sight word or attendance to their no initiation rites or anything like that so it was all it all came to me for what other latter-day Saints said about what other churches were doing with regards to sacraments and ordinances and it is usually negative, usually some comment about using wine for communion rather than rather than water. You know, because the word was on and all that kind of stuff so I think the teachings of the LDS church made logical sense to do so, like I understood why they were opposed to infant baptism based on the idea of the age of accountability still seems still seemed weird to me that there were there was this arbitrary age were suddenly everything is only responsible for things in a way that you are before and then I don't think I understood like losing my dad talk about Lutheranism. I don't think I understood why some face due sprinkling for baptism instead of immersion in the when I got older and was in the MTC knows reading Talmage's works and you know his is kind of screeds against transubstantiation and some of the other other views of the Roman Catholic Church, especially the 101 after the great apostasy that I think I became a little bit more strident in my views touched on that before that I was growing up, I have largely most positive view of other figures via my dad but then you know when I went on on the mission.

It changed me for a number of years. So you're on your mission yet more exposure to other points of view, the kind of veggies see it differently or did it reinforce what you already thought about it in terms of the ordinances in Christianity, both so that there was a time when my my hand and I were trying to we had an appointment scheduled with an investigator and the investigator wasn't home and we went to meet with them so we were changing plans and decided to contracting that afternoon and there was this area of town that we always rode through on the bus. It was it was a it was like a central square and there was big beautiful Roman Catholic Church just on one side of the square and then the square was completely lined with life. Old-style apartment buildings that you know if you walked into the front and there were courtyards in the Bakken several stories of apartments all around the courtyard and everything was just meticulously catching a beautiful flowers and everything in the in the square.

We would write your sweet side of the Ricoh tract out the area.

For whatever reason we thought, you know that that was were related to guests that afternoon salute went to track there and then on the way down there we decided I know we got the notion that we should present the book of Mormon to the priests for that for the Catholic church and so we went track them down with lust.

Matthew Matthew the you there. You gone back back I guess was born asleep. It is his faith to hang out key is what happens when you stay up all night every night working on your papers now for a guy or maybe the squirrels got finally. Yeah, that's probably what it was either says he is not on this call scary guys hiccuping my connection for outerwear. I knew squirrels were servants of the devil.

This just proves that that's yeah is if they can get on Facebook and it's like to see a purpose for Matthew good news I started a new podcast with the will of Matthews that the answer is I will pick up in their Internet problems. Like in months and then it's going to happen next. There is an outlet for my exam the same thing. The whole I hope not.

I'll be praying it doesn't know it. Actually it's interesting because I was sorry to tell you the story about my companion, I decided to take the book of Mormon to this priests cutting out some parts of parts to that story right so we got to get on the bus to go down there to the square that I was talking about start tracting and trying to track down this pretty well. We are officially on the bus to go down there and then on the bus that I I'm reading is reading LeGrand Richards. Marvelous work and a wonder, and for whatever reason was feeling my oats� Like we should, we should totally get the book of Mormon to the priests in that church you know and we go to get off the bus to change to a different bus that would take us there and my companion steps off the bus. He doesn't twist his ankle does nothing. He suddenly like over, but the worst pain in his ankle like Jim Walker have to help them over to a bench to sitdown and psychologists. This is totally proving this is what we need to do. You know, because were being spiritually attacked so we get on the next bus and go down there and try to figure out how to get in touch with this priest. You know, go to the door the church and its locks. You know nobody's there at the time of the day and go over and look up like the bulletin board that's to the side of the big church doors. There's a map of the church and then you decide building which we kind of assumed was made to the rectory and languages verbiage and during the kind of indicates that it is the rectory and the partner circled and on sleep we go over the side there there's a there's a gate with a bell on it ring the bell and nobody calms them becomes so distal guys walking past you have coursework to Americans in missionary garb. So he's curious to know who are these guys you know was that the FBI was, so he asked us what's going on tell me no training in touch with the produce that preachers of this church and he said all his name. The house for them of the parsonage.

The parsonage is one block over on the street you know you gave us the address so overbearing. Ring the bell there and his secretary came out asked us what we wanted and we told him you know who we were told her we were in me wanted to see the priest and talk to him about things and she still is pretty busy and so I was kind of important to let the seven sets down in his office. He comes in he was younger priest is all you know books everywhere you know and he comes in and sits down across the desk from Austin asked us what we're doing there and we just launched in like a river knocking doors in your area and we figured we'd come over and let you know over thereon, and here's the book of Mormon, another Testament of Jesus Christ is the Scripture is looking at us like were from another planet and you will looks interesting. Is that what he says to us, and we didn't spend a whole lot of time with them because he was busy what he says to us that I think back on them like a section such and not Roman Catholic thing for us to say to us, but he's basically like, why do I need to Scripture. I've already got the Bible you know which is there such as such an emphasis on church tradition and in doctrine and all I can stuff in the Catholic Church and so for him to take a stand on on something that's almost akin to Solis footwear was interesting to me but anyway spend a few minutes with them you left in the book of Mormon and then laughed and continued to track and attract in the area with zero success, but we decided a few days later, that we would follow Mrs. work, where ordinances come into play.

We decided the best way to follow up with them would be to go to one of his evening masses right so we did that on Saturday evening we went in the subjunctive mass and sat in the church and washed all of that watched give communion choose to his parishioners and that was an opportunity for me to see what other faiths do and realize that no view that I can a grown up with and been given by Latter Day Saints. Is that all the Catholic Church is evil but it was still kind of a beautiful experience to go and sit and listen to listen to the masses into the singing.

Listen to the call and response and see you know something that has been going on for centuries. So that meant so United Ashley Matthew if you know my mission to reinforce my negative views of other faiths and noted some ways both like I like is that it may be strident but it also give me an appreciation because I got to see things like that firsthand. So and so when you so I'm guessing it was like enough was just normal church or was a like a cathedral or what was it they visited it was a fairly large cathedral. Yeah.

So when you we would you go inside usually see the baptismal dated did that bother you or your you know where it will usually have the infants or the baptizer did have a large font that they use know they had.

Yeah, you're right. They had the baptismal there right near the door.

You know I don't I don't know that it bothered me and I know that I really took notice of the too much. I was just kind and all of the architecturally okay. I just I said to be interesting.

Just because you know missionaries are thinking about like different churches and Tina were the one true church and everything else is no part of the quote unquote great and abominable church and like their minds me.

My mission there were there's lots of beautiful architecture and cathedrals.

I love visiting cathedrals and I mentioned it before but when the city's eyes and called omnia in France as one of the largest.

I think it might actually be the largest Gothic style cathedral and in Europe. I can't remember.

And it's just massive file can climb up like dozens of flights of stairs or how many I don't care remedy never go to the top and look out. He can just see just for you know dozens of miles is really awesome. But what's what's the claim to fame is that cathedral is that I think I may be wrong but I think the specific reason they that particular cathedral was because the Catholic Church had claimed to have the head of John the Baptist. So they built this cathedral to house that head and it's you can go inside and it's behind a little known comic prison bars almost ethical justice goal and has like a golden crown with some some paintings on their of certain things and John the Baptist lifelike when he baptized Jesus and I guess like once or twice every year they they take the head down the Kennewick paraded in front of the town and things like that so is really truly fascinating but yet I love the architecture and I love chanting to I love I love just like Gregorian chances know they're called like sometimes I'll just listen to them on YouTube and the just really really awesome like I, like, I can see the appeal of that, liturgy, because it feels very ancient. It feels like you're connected to something very old and is just a different kind of experience you know you kinda see a lot of a lot of modern evangelicalism is catlike similar in terms of our worship styles to see coming to so radically different and unique it is. It's interesting, but I know it's for me it's a really been an appeal to go to you know to move toward that liturgy for my worship but I can see why it's appealing appeal for me to move towards that either, but I've developed an appreciation for it so that the stress I just told you about that with that priest was in my third area of my mission in my second area of my mission. We were close to a little town where the first Hungarians who moved into the Carpathian basin from overbought by like the steps of the Ural Mountains in the 10th century they had built like an earthen fort kind of to protect themselves when they moved into this little town there now, but it wasn't bad but they built a certain for MC could go and visit that and see what climb up the hills that they had built up units throwing up earth on top of her and there was a really old church. There the first is that they moved in there were Christian but then the country was Christianized. Later on, and then one of the oldest churches is that in that town right near that person for so visiting places like that. I don't know his last Latter Day Saints you know you have the whole narrative of the great apostasy and all of that is his apostate and you shouldn't have anything to do with it is kind of the attitude but serving a mission in Hungary kind and give me an appreciation for and there's a bench there's a sense in which I felt connected with a historic Christianity that started there on my mission so you know I and I just talking about your your foreign missions and all the crazy, the cool stuff they did like just brings in my mind like going to a she did visited Calvary Chapel in California and I was like man. There their style here is to wear shorts and sandals and Hawaiian shirts to church like man that's something I don't think I can ever get behind is just like so irreverent and good hearing about what you guys on your missions like that would've been a totally different perspective for me because what I saw was just really casual close, you know, loud, worship music in my family don't even take God seriously lie to them. It's just all fun and games and you know they don't even realize the depth of the atonement.

You know, he just doesn't mean anything to them. That is interesting and that's that's one reason why I came up with that idea the other week about like making a separate upset about spirit and truth.

The John 424 passage we use a lot to show that know God's spirit and the father's spirit, but it's also just really powerful message in saying that we need to worship God in both truth and in spirit and I think that those cows experiences. We've got the rock like the hard-core rock bands like people are not really focused on the you know the real you know, we speak of liturgy don't do that. The Roman Catholic liturgy but like when you're just reading the liturgy and in terms of the songs are singing while at times it can be very shallow, whereas a lot of hymns are very deep. Theologically you know you can actually learn from singing the hymns so you know it's like this balance of what you can't just be strictly taking the gospel is something like you know like a philosophical endeavor but you also can't just go straight for the emotions and so that'll be interesting to talk about then Jefferson mentioned to the reason about my mission is the fact that there is a different cathedral in that and I think is Belgium and lit in Li�ge and in there. I think it was a cathedral might just be a church. I don't know. But you go inside and ending their baptismal actually has 12 oxen underneath, like LDS, and we saw that is like LDS relax see let you know it's a pretty old cathedral asked several hundred year in like maybe 100,000 on obits very old and severe like a is like apostasy but see like something stuck out in open corset going for an infant.

You can relax see like you know they probably just took like you know are our temple baptismal fonts in like overtime is made smaller and smaller unit of Catholic bots we had in mind and I took pictures of that to but it was cool to see the school. Yes, I think I think is really good session. It is like as Latter Day Saints. I felt similarly to you Michael when you're in your talking with the pastor the came to my mind was section 22 of doctrine and covenants, as is and is a clinical renal revelation in response to people had Artie been baptized so they will know went to Joe's mess that have been baptized or have you baptized again if you want to join the church, and so that section says behold I say unto you, that all old covenants that I caused to be done away this thing and this is a new and everlasting covenant. Moving on, says wherefore, although Mashpee baptized 100 times it avail with him nothing for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses needed by your debt works for us because of your debt works that I have because his last covenant in this church be built up unto me, even as in days of old. So according that section and it's pretty clear and LDS doctrine that if you're not has by their authority and you're not doing it the way that's prescribed by their authorities, then it doesn't really count. Like you said Michael I kind of summer idea that for Christians or baptizer took communion or Lord supper you, Chris, will you know what you return the use I felt you know it's good you know they want to try to honor God.

Trying to do their best but it doesn't ultimately count for their eternal life. It doesn't it doesn't give them forgiveness of sins because they don't have the right authority so I had pretty much the same view that you done yet to go along with that unit doctrine and covenants 132 verse seven says you know the conditions of this law are these all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations both valves, performances, connections, associations or expectations that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. You know of him who is anointed both as well for time and for all eternity and that to most holy by revelation, a commandment through the medium of mine anointed as rewarding, but he basically said you know, if it's not done by the priest to know if efficacy virtue or force in and after the resurrection from the dead sucking about marriage ceilings, but I thought that applied to all the things that resembled saving ordinances that other churches did you know that's not done by the priesthood. If it's not you know, done by the proper authority in stockinette have an effect in the next life right exactly that's really good passage for me for their view and there is there is a Miley LDS discussion groups. Christian was asking LDS so if the church apostatized when there is a death of the apostles. What about all these churches that were set up everywhere. You know, because it's not like there's only 12 apostles. They went everywhere so you still have these churches kind of working at Thomas lead to some degree but then once the apostles died what happened to these churches immediately. Just like start going crazy and owned did they stop being the church.

Others a really good question because it made me think okay how would I answer that is a latter-day St. I think I probably would've answered well those who were baptized when the apostles were around and so had the authority will they would've had access to. You know the ordinances but eventually people will die off, you know, there would be no valid ordinations to the priesthood and then when you don't have that, then eventually all devout priesthood holders with Diane then basically fizzle out, so was like an immediate, I would've answered I was an immediate apostasy in terms of ending calling of the Christian church just instantly went off the earth is Camargo fizzling out as a fizzling out to, but I guess the counter question that I would ask them you know would probably be you know if that happened today. If some horrible accident befell the prophet in the apostles, and they all were off the earth the same time. Could the church recover. That's a great question. Okay, think should move on so think your input by the was the LDS view of their saving ordinances, something that was affirmed part of your testimony as Latter Day Saints wasn't something that was a struggle to let go or overcoming your faith journey out of the LDS church so sorry to this temple say yes to both of those questions.

So yes, it was a pretty firm part of my testimony when I was latter-day St., and yes it was something that was a bit of a struggle to overcome in my turning out the LDS church is five saving ordinances and some confirmation priesthood ordination for males temple endowment and temple marriage is like crumbs on the ladder right the path to a path of obedience to the ordinances is laid out pretty clearly before you as Latter Day Saints. You know exactly what you must do when completed for exultation is very well defined and so you know I got kind of you.as these are the things I need to complete these are things I need to do and once I've done those things then no exultation is guaranteed, but at least I've completed all of the ordinances that I'm supposed to do what one in particular talking about, like the path out temple marriage was supposed particularly difficult to unravel as as I have my faith transition and I'll talk about more than on the lips of the planned out, but a touch of interest.

Generally, share, select temple marriage is the final saving ordinances ordinances. The LDS church.

If one excludes the second anointing, but in a sense once one once you've been baptized or went to the Merryman Temple you've obeyed and completed all of the ordinances and then you just have to endure the end and obedience to the commandments and you will be exalted so you know when you leave the idea of what what is that mean now I was marriage me now that was a tough one to come work through and for Angela and I to kinda walk through and will will cover more on that like us and the other episode, but as I as I started to go through my faith crisis. I kind of came to view the temple ordinances as additions to the normal historic Christian sacraments of baptism and ends confirmation and so things I noticed were that the temple ordinances are not in the book of Mormon) on the New Testament. So what are they a restoration of kinda became the question that I really wrestled through an example would be like, you know Washington anointing.

This is sort of like confirmation of the Roman Catholic Church, a Christian nation in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

But even that it has has a different stated purpose right because like in the Roman Catholic Church confirmation in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Christian nation is, is this seal of the Holy Spirit upon the believer right in the LDS church test on it that your confirmation following your baptism so the separate Washington anointing ritual is a completely different stated purpose then Bennett's maybe historic precedent within Christianity and so those questions are things that I kinda wrestled through as I as I was working my way out is the temple ordinances are accretions that I was left with the question okay so where and how many ordinances are actually biblical and I had to work through that interesting. He thought about those connections between temple ordinances and historical Christianity. The way I Was When I Saw That Washington Anointing.

II Thought of When Aaron Prepared His Sons to Be Priests in the Temple, so I Thought It Went All the Way Back to the Old Testament Times and Then I Figured, Well, the Roman Catholic Church Probably Took That and Kinda Did It for Their Own Thing so It's Interesting That You Are Comparing a Not to Old Testament Temple, but to No Historic Churches to Know, Following the New Testament Suggestion. Okay Have a Michael. I Would Also Say Yes to Both of Those Questions. My Testimony Was Absolutely Grounded in the Saving Ordinances.

I Really Believe That All of Them Needed to Be Performed. Like Paul, I Saw the Microns. In the Latter Things That Needed to Be Done and Then after They Were Done, I Could.

I Can Get by by Enduring to the End and Is Being Diligent about My Repentance and Things like That.

I Didn't Go through Quite a Transition When It Came to the Ordinances, Especially When Forensic Righteousness Came into the Picture Because I Started to Kinda Realize You Know If If It's Christ's Righteousness That That Brings Me to the Celestial Kingdom Than She Already Underwent All of These Ordinances and so I Don't Actually Need Any of Them, and so Affect Christ Became My Saving Ordinance If That Makes Any Sense.

And so the Problem with That Presented for Me Was You Know If If Christ Is My Sacrament, so to Speak Than There Was No Need for a Restoration Because You Don't Need the Restoration to Have Christ There's Millions of People on the Planet Who Have a Relationship with Christ and so Once I Kinda Made That We I Realized That the. The Ordinances Weren't Valid in the Church Units Gets Close. His Work and Had to Realize the Church Wasn't Necessary before I Could I Could Come to Grips with the Fact That They Weren't Essential in My Life Anymore, but See As Far As Leaving the Church.

It Was One Thing That I Struggled with a Little Bit Because Eli Came into Interface Are Going to a Christian Church and I Did Get Baptized but There Was so Little Liturgy around That. It Just Felt like It Wasn't Really Cemented in like in Mormonism. There Are so Many Layers of Liturgy You Get Baptized and Then You Have Hands Laid on You for the Gift of the Holy Ghost and Many Receive the Erotic Priesthood and That He Received the Keswick Priesthood. In the Event Your Washington Anointing's in the Temple in Your Endowment and Then This Feeling and Is Buried underneath All These Layers of Things That You Think Are Are Doing Something and so It Just Felt Empty for A While after My Faith Transition. Some, like Matt, Ali Ali Done Is Get Baptized and and That's It. So That Was Definitely a Struggle for Me so to Follow up on That.

Do You Feel like like You Said Is It Is Pretty Simple and Most Christian Churches. It's Very Simple Terms of Baptism, so at the Time Did You Kind of Crave Something That Was More Involved or Not. More Steps to It at the Time and Did That Change in All It Compared Then to Now, Is It Something That You've Come to Accept. Well, I Think That You Are Somewhere down Deep inside I Still Crave That a Little Bit after 32 Years. I Guess It Just Doesn't Go Away That That Easily, but I You I Want Repentance to Be This Long Drawn out Process Where I Write All the Wrongs That I Committed and You Know They Take Lashings for the Things That I Did Wrong and You Know You Just Doesn't Make It Feel A Lot More Legitimate. In Some Ways, but I Think in A Lot Of Ways to It's Just My Just My Pride Talking Because You Know This This Thing in Me Just Wants to Take Some Kind of Credit You Know I Will Say That I Did Something and in Reality It's It's All Christ's Know Christ Did the Work for Me Vicariously on the Cross and When I Came to Believe That Was Imputed to Me and That's Just the Simple Truth and I Am I Am Happy to Accept That. So I Mean There Are Times I Think When I Crave It. But for the Most Parts I Am Completely Content with Things Now Okay Excellent so I Can Arty Talk a Little Bit Pretty Much in the Intro How I Felt.

It Was the Priesthood and the Ordinances Were Very Important to Me in My Testimony.

They Were Probably the Last Chains to Break before I Fully Know, Gave Myself to Leaving Her Committed to Leaving the LDS Church and Attending a Christian Churches Were the Last Things Are Holding Me on Because I Thought Well You Know It Doesn't Matter Really in the End, When It Comes to Your Own Salvation. You Can Teach All Kinds of False Things You Know like I Was out for A While I Was Reading the Forgotten Trinity by Dr. White While Taking the Bus to My LDS Ward You Know to and I Was Still Teaching Primary and Didn't Really Pick My Conscience Because You Know I Was Teaching Things like Keep the Commandments and Follow Jesus, You, Things like That Where I Didn't Feel like a Conflict of Interest, but Then I Thought, Well, Just the Idea Being There in the LDS Church and Pretending like You Know Everything Is Fine Even Though I Hadn't No Major Differences with Church Doctrine Teachings That I Thought Just Being There Made It Seem like I Supported It so That after Understanding so Feeding the Were Were Justified or Declared Righteous by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone. Likely Nudged Understanding That Specially from Romans S Does Count the Linchpin like Once Those Chains Broke. I Was like Okay Well You Know I'm to Trust the Bible Because This Is What God Is Clearly Teaching so If I Stand before Him and I'm Going to Be Judged Well If I'm Wrong in the Bible Is Wrong with Me.

That's Kind of the Attitude That I Had Was by God's Grace. It Understood That As a Born-Again Christian.

Do You Have the Same View of the Ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ As He Did As a Latter-Day Saying How Do You Think They've Changed so Michael's Go to Write the Biggest Changes That I No Longer Believe That Ordinances Make a Difference When It Comes to Our Justification Level Was Kinda Confusing about the Ordinances You Know Some of Them Were for Eternal Life like Baptism and the Receiving Receiving of the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

But Then When I Resume My Transition Is Still Hanging onto Mormonism by My Fingernails in Science a Will the Temple Ordinances Are for Exaltation and That's Totally Separate from Salvation so That We Can Canada Can I Get Away with Saying I'm Saved by Faith Alone or It's Just Baptism and That's All That I Need but at This Point, You Know, I Think. I Think That Christ's Grace Is Enough to Give Us Whatever We Need. I'm Not Opposed to, You Know, the Ordinances Being Useful.

Still, Not for Eternal Life.

But, but for Sanctification.

Okay Great Applicable I Would Say That Now My Is Not the Same. So You and Michael Both Touched on the Idea with the Other Stress That the Ordinances Are Efficacious Unless They're Performed by Some of the Most Proper Priesthood Authority and That Proper Creases Authorities Only Found with the Meal This Church and in Matthew in Your Intro You Touched on Some Quotes That You Are Kind to That Effect to Look Back on That One Specifically Was Was from Orson F. Whitney from a Marvelous Work and a Wonder Right Where He Talks about the Learned Roman Catholic Who Comes to Utah on Basically Presents the Idea to Orson F. Whitney That Either the Catholic Church or Its Latter Day Saints Church Right That Is Correct Because the Only Two That Are Really Claiming Priesthood Authority Right Side and Unbroken Succession of Occlusive Authority or Else You Know a Restoration of Priesthood Authority That Was Lost. I Question the Reality of That Conversation Action Taking Place, but Some Research on This Week on the Roman Catholic Church View and I Was Really Curious about the Way the Second Nephi 31 Refers to Baptism Is the Gate, Because I Was Reading I Was Listening to Actually a Lesson on the Roman Catholic Catechism and Referred to Baptism As the Door and Seven Curious to Learn Is That Idea Originate Right but That Baptism Is a Gate or Door Catholic Catechism Most Recent One Obviously Isn't Referencing the Book of Mormon so It's Got to Be Some Idea That Predates Both. So I Started Looking into That.

Actually, the First Reference I Found Service in the Council of Florence Which Is 20 17th Ecumenical Council. I Think in My 1431 or Something like That and Was It Was Interesting Because It Refers to Baptism Is a Gate and I Thought That Was Fascinated with an As Is Reading through Bad Counsel, Kind of Reading through the Later Counsel Knows Someone Was Talking about How You Can Baptize and You Should Be Produced, but It Doesn't Have To Be a Priest, a Layperson Can Baptize or Perhaps Even a Second Baptize Thought Was Really Interesting Is Totally Was Doing Away with the Idea That the Person Who Performs the Baptism Is What Makes about Efficacious Which Is Very Much the Ladders Are so and Then Also I Just Also the Roman Catholic View, but That the Council Was Kind of Making the Statement That� Really Doesn't Matter, and I Know That This Worked out within the Catholic Church, nor Even Earlier on in Christian History Was the Donatists. I Think That Some Right.

Matthew and Whether Sacraments Are Efficacious or Not Rejected the Faith Faith That Exactly so. I Just Know the Donatists Were Those Who Felt That Those Who Had during Persecution Had Renounced Their Faith Even If Not Truly, but At Least to Protect Themselves from the from the Governmental Authorities That That Would Make Their Baptisms Are Rather Sacraments That They Performed No Value in the Church Is Ruled. That Wasn't the Case of the Wasn't the Efficacious of the Sacrament Is Not Based upon the Worthiness of the Person Performed It so That's Worked out Long before the Other Districts Comes on the Scene but Will Hold You Anything like That Where the Efficacy of the Ordinances Is Based on the Authority of the One Performing It, I'm Not. I'm Not a Baptismal Regeneration Is so I Don't Believe That You Can Just Take Anyone on and Dump Them in Water, Sprinkle Lemon and Regeneration Happens Because of the Water or Anything like That. There's Nothing Magical in the Water Not Fully Embrace the Swing and Idea Though That That Baptism Is Merely Symbolic Meaning Towards the Idea That God Works in Baptism and the Christ Is Present Spiritually in Communion so I Guess I Hold More More Robust Sacramental View That an Ordinance You but Still Thinking to That in Some Ways You Think You When You're Talking about the Various Views of Baptism and the Lord's Supper over the Centuries.

Yeah It's Something Really Fascinating to for Me to Read into to All Historical Views and Maybe Maybe I Should Wait off to Talk More about This until Later but yet Just to See All the Different Views of the Lord Supper Baptism and Yeah When I When I Was Investigating the Church and When I Was Kind of Agnostic and of Traffic on Stiff My Life Yeah I Thought Is What Got Me to the LDS Church of the Roman Catholic Church Just Made Sense to Me That Way. So, Have a Seat on Think That Way so Similar to Both of You.

I Don't Think You Need a Special's Sacerdotal Priesthood to Perform the Ordinances. First of All, and I Don't Think That There an Absolute Necessity for Eternal Life. So but at Same Time. I Also Don't Believe That They Accomplish Nothing Whatsoever, Because This Argument Talked about. I Think They Actually Do Accomplish Something and I Think Most Christians Do. It's Just That We Disagree, Perhaps Slightly and Exactly Why We Do Baptism and What It What Actually Is Accomplished in Baptism I'm Interested in Hearing and Maybe This Is a Question down the Line Somehow but on What You Guys Do You Think That the Sacraments Accomplish.

Yeah, Let's See It.

Let's Let's Do That and Maybe I Can Ask Some Things Pacifically like What Do You Think the Sacraments Accomplish Little Set up Okay.

Why Do We Use Different Terms and Then Wiser Disagreement Is That a Bad Thing. And Then We Can Say Okay, Now We've Established That the Most Talk about Our Views When Considering Historical Christianity in the Ordinances or Sacraments Why You Do You Think That There Is This Difference in Terminology among Different Groups and Do You Prefer One Term over the Other and Why. So My Understanding of the Difference Terminology Is That It Reflects the Difference in Beliefs about the Major of Facts Right. So Sacraments Are Viewed As a Means of Grace from God. Ordinances Are Viewed As Demonstrating a Person's Faith and Are Done in Remembrance of Jesus. That Is How You Understand the Differences to Terminology Yeah Basically Yummy Team That Sounds about Right to Extend the Question Is Do I Prefer One Term over the Other and Why I Think Personally I Prefer Sacraments Because I View the Ordinances You Sacrament Is Having a Real Effect on the Believer in the Good That God Works with Demos so� Terminology Makes More Sense to Me. Okay since about You Michael Well I Disagree with Paul on This on This One but I Still Love Them.

I Agree with His Description of Ordinances Versus Sacraments, and I Do Have To Say That I Think Part of the Reason I Don't like the Word Sacraments Just Coming Out Of the LDS Church to Where You Know I Just Get Triggered You Know Thinking and like All of the Sacrament Is the Ordinance That Repairs My Broken Covenant with God That I Broke by Sinning This Week so I Admit That's Probably a Bias in There Somewhere to You, but I Do. I Do Hold I Prefer Ordinances and That's Just Because I Think I Believe That All the All the Grace That We Need Is Been Given to Us by Christ to Be Justified, and so Anything Else That We Do after That Is Going to Be an Act Just Symbolizing a Change That Is Already Happened in Our Lives Not to Say That I Think an Ordinance Cannot Do Something to the Believer, You Know, for Instance, When I When I Took the Sacrament the First Time. I Mean I Want to Take Communion for the First Time in a Protestant Church. I Literally Wept Because of This Symbolism Compared to What I Was Dealing with in the Mormon Churches in Mormonism Say Okay like This Is like I Said to Repair My Broken Covenant with God to and I Done Something Wrong If I Done Something Really Serious. I Couldn't Even Take It. But in Christianity It Represented God's Unwavering Love for Me and in the Offer of Grace, Regardless of Why Was It Was That Christ Died for Me While I Was Still Center and so It Definitely Still Had an Impact on the Use of Big Spiritual Impact, so I Don't Think Calling It an Ordinance Means That It's Just the Right Thing That That Doesn't Do Anything but on the Other Hand, I Wouldn't Say That It It's Giving out Grace in Any Way to Bring Us to Justification If That Makes Sense to Make Sense.

It Is Interesting Just Because It's Hard to Really Say Well Ordinance Means This Thing to Every Christian Uses That Term or Sacrament Means This Thing to Every Christian. You Also Use That Term Because Just with Pretty Much As Every Topic There's Always Can Be a Spectrum of of Who Understands Us Determine Why They Use It for That Reason. And You Know There's Nuances That You Cannot Miss between Tradition so Yeah Generally. So We Talked about How Ordinances Are Basically There More Symbolic and Remembering of What God Has Done in the past Versus Sacraments Watch Our Conveying Grace to Those Who Receive It and More Signs of What God Is Done in the past but What Is Also Continues to Do to the Believer. That's, That's, Compares and I Think I Found One Website. When I Was Reading about the Lutheran View and I Was like Okay That's a Pretty Good Comparison. You Know, and I'm Not a Strange Duck Because so the Church I Attended, and What Identify Myself As Either Particular Baptist or Reformed Baptist There Many Reform to Say That I'm Not Reformed That's Fine Particular Baptist Work Just Fine, but so I Hold to the 1677 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and It's Kind of like the Grandson of the Westminster Confession of Faith Have 1646, Which Is Presbyterian Confession and I What's Interesting Is You Can Actually Look up Online. Just Google Westminster Confession Versus London Baptist Confession and Their Nearly Identical in an Almost over 90% of the Confessions Are Nearly Identical, but There Certain Things That Change in This Website. They Tabulated All the Changes so like If the Words Are Comments Each One Are Black If They Added on Renal for Something Unique and One Confession of the Arts in Blue and If There Something Slightly Rephrase or Change That.

It's in Red so It's Really It's Really Cool to Compare but I'm Looking in Chapter 28 of the Westminster Confession Which Is Related to Chapter 29 of Baptism in the London Baptist Confession so They're Kind of Fino There. There Is Slight Different Enumerations with Their Chapters. But There but There Similar to Both Talking Baptism so Paragraph One of the Westminster Confession Says That Baptism Is a Sacrament of the New Testament Ordained by Jesus Christ Not Only for the Solomon Mission of the Party Baptized into the Visible Church, but Also to Be unto Him a Sign and Seal of the Covenant of Grace of His in Grafting into Christ of Regeneration, a Remission of Sins and of His Giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to Walk in Newness of Life Which Sacrament Is by Christ's Own Appointment. To Be Continued in His Church until the End of the World and the Baptist Confession Is Slightly Shorter and Soreness of the Westerns Are Confession Says Baptism Is a Sacrament of the New Testament and in the London Baptist Confession Says Baptism Is an Ordinance of the New Testament Ordained by Jesus Christ to Be unto the Party Baptized a Sign of His Fellowship with Him in His Death and Resurrection. So They Took That Part out Where It Says Also to Be Solemn Admission of the Party Baptized into the Visible Church, so I Took That Part out Though. It's Interesting Is That When You Really Study a Particular Baptist Theology.

We Do Believe That Baptism Is an Initiate Is Finished and Initiatory Right to Enter the Church so You Can't Really Take Every You Know Parts.

He Took out You Can't Really Say Oh That Means I Don't Believe This Because It's Not Necessarily the Case.

It May Be Emphasized Elsewhere.

Anyways I'm Getting into like a Big Deal Here but Basically They Called an Ordinance and Are Confession but When You Think of the Word Ordinance Means Something Is Commanded or Ordered by Higher Magistrate Right It Comes from the Word or to Ordain so It's It's Ordained Meaning Is Commanded by Christ for His Church. So in That Sense, Yes I I'm Totally Fine with the Word Ordinance, but the Same Time I Don't I'm Similar to Both You Where It's Not Simply Just a Symbolic Act Is Not Something That's That's Another Way to Witness Your Faith in Christ or to Be Symbolic of Something Only, and I Do Believe That It's a Sacrament in the Sense That God Does Convey Grace to Those Who Receive It, and in the Reformed Tradition Whether Baptist or Otherwise. They Always See These These Rights. These Ordinances Are Sacraments, They See Them As They See Them It Only As Efficacious through Faith. So While Presbyterians Baptize Their Infants. They Do Not Believe That It Is Ex Opera X (Upper Auto Meeting in the in the Work Working for Member Correctly Recently Just Means When You Do It, It Necessarily Conveys What It Represents and Presbyterians Don't Believe That Baptist on Either We See That We See, Is Contingent upon Faith. If I Make Sense When They Baptize Their Infants. They Do Believe That It Does Baptize Them into the Visible Church, but It Doesn't Convey to Them What It Represents. Meaning Being Engrafted into Christ's Salvation. Forgiveness of Sins, Etc. and Same Thing at Baptist, We See That As It's It's Efficacious Only If You Have Faith and Ideally for Particular Baptist.

You Should Only Get Baptism and the Lord's Supper to Those Who Have a Valid Profession of Faith and That You Know They Show Signs of of Fruits of Repentance and in Faith Because We It's Based on Our Review of the Covenants We Have a Baptist Have Several Variations of Covenant Theology, but We See That It's Preserved for Those Who Are in the New Covenant and We See That in the New Covenant. According to Hebrews 8 Is Reserved Only for Those Who Show Signs That They Are Regenerate That They Are Part of Part of God's People Part of God's Elect.

So I Have No Problem so to Wrap It All up. I Really Don't Have a Problem with Either One. I Know That Some Some Baptism.

A Church Prefer to Call It an Ordinance, Not a Sacrament, and Sometimes I Wonder. I Don't Know for Certain, but I Think There Might Be a Historical Thing behind That Because like I Said, the Theology of the Particular Baptists They Had No Problem with This Concept of God Conveying the Benefits of Redemption through Baptism for Those Who Have Faith in Terms of Sanctification and Growing in Faith and Overcoming of Sins or Missions and Say Things like That so but at the Same Time. Maybe They Wanted to Separate Themselves a Little Bit from the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe There Is That Reason They Are Not Sure Why They Chose to Use the Word Ordinance Not Sacrament Because They Took All References to Sacrament Out Of the London Out Of the London Baptist Confession Where It Existed in the Westminster Confession so I Set about Historically When They Did That, but I Don't Think There's Really a Problem with Either One, and Most Other Groups like with Lutherans, Anglicans.

They Call Them Sacraments Also. I Think This Is Mostly Baptists, Anabaptists, Quakers like Us Quakers Only Do It Anymore, but I Think There, the Ones of the Call Ordinances. I Think Most of the People Call Sacraments, but There Might Be Other Groups Are: Mrs. Ordinances, You Must Be the Baptist in Me Then I Was Assisted by Paul Sci-Fi Came off Sounding Aggressive. That Was Unintended Door Worries for Us to Disagree. As You Crack Your Knuckles Laid Him into Submission. You Crack My Bible Global Okay You're Still with Christian Michael. You Just Don't Know Parts of My View That I'm Still Working on What's Been Going on Express.

I Think Several Times That That My My Intent Is to Have My My Views Conform to the Word of God.

So If I'm Wrong on Something in the Word of God Shows Me That the Useful Change.

Ditto for Me, for Me That's Definitely the Direction That I'm Trying to Go. You Know I'm Still Trying to I Guess That Defined What I Am Exactly and There's Things That I Don't I Don't Grasp Fully yet so I Mean You Know Any Year. I Could Meet Somewhere Totally Different Than Where I Am Right Now I Think It's Always Good to Always Be Reforming Always Conforming to the Word of God. Historically, There Have Been Differences in Opinion on How Many Ordinances or Sacraments. There Are What Purposes They Serve Etc. Is This Something That We Should Worry about. Does This Disrupt the Unity of the One the Quote One Holy Catholic C Meaning Universal and Apostolic Church" That We Affirm to Belong to. According to the Earliest Christian Creeds for You to Start Last Episode with Michael. Okay, I Think It Is My Turn Anyway Right so Is This This Is Something to Worry about. I Don't Think That It Is Something That We Need to Worry about.

I Actually Really like the Differences in Some of the Churches in This. This Is Just Dark Spelled out Hundred Percent in the Bible so I'm Really Okay with It. I Think the Only Time Where I Would Start to Get a Little Bit Concerned Is If Somebody Was Going to the Point of Saying That Christ Wasn't Sufficient That We Weren't Saved by by Grace Alone through Faith Alone. If I Saw Something Going beyond the Scope of That Then I Might Be a Little Bit Concerned but Otherwise I Don't Have a Problem with It. Tracy If You Ask Me Something Else. There Does This Disrupt the Unity of the One Holy Catholic Church, Yeah, I Don't Think That It's a Problem Only Disrupts the Unity of All I Think It's Just Just a Unique Style of Worship and Theology, and It's All under the Umbrella of Christianity.

Okay, Awesome People, so My My Answers, Short Should Be. Think about It Yes Should Be Reason out. Yes She Did Discuss It. Yes.

Should We Seek Unity on Yes Disrupting Yes As Can Anything That the Person Allows to Come between Them. Another Believer, I'm with Michael. I Think That There Are Some Interesting Things, like I Did Some Comparisons This Food You Looking at the Major Branches of of Historic Christianity, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant Men Comparing out with the Latter Is Views in Terms of Number Ordinances and Purposes Know the Kind of Something That I Was Interesting Stuff That I Can Kinda Touch on Later but I Think One of the Interesting Things I Noticed Is That There's Differences That Are Interesting so Confirmation Right Is One Where There's There's Definitely Differences That Is That the New Testament Ordinance or Is Not in Their Questions around Method That Are Interesting to Think about Reason through so but I Think from a Metal That Were Later Okay Cool and If Questions Come in Your Mind You Know of My Discussion. You Can Just Let Me Know If If My Church As an Sacrament of Doing Circumcision Is That Bad All Just Referring to Galatians Just Messing with You. I Know I Would Mention to Adults Hypothetically but Yeah This so I'm Not Sure How Much I Have Thoughts in Mind of Things to Talk about This Question. It's Fascinating to Me to Read so Much Difference in Christianity Historically over Ordinances and Technically the Real First Disruption of Denominational Lines.

I Guess You Could Call It Was over the Subject of the Lord's Supper Goes Back to Martin Luther, and Ulrich Zwingli, so They Had Written Letters to Each Other about Each Other's Positions of What Exactly the Lord's Supper Was and What It Conveyed and What Representative What Was Actually There. What Were You Actually Consuming so It's Interesting Because I Don't Know about Baptism I Am Studied That Quite a Bit That I've Been Reading in Ackerman Databank. He Was the True Form Guy.

He's Got a Really Solid Systematic Texts for Volumes. The Reform Dogmatics and He Talks about about Zwingli and How He's Kind of Been Maligned As Seeing All of the Lord's Supper.

It's Literally Just Eating Bread and It's Just a Remembrance. You, Nothing Happens, but Really He Talks but How Zwingli Did Believe in Spiritual Presence in the Lord's Supper Is Osprey Fascinating to Me Because Love People That Said While He You Know He Just I Was Eating Bread.

Nothing Happened, but Really That's Not Quite Correct to Believe in Spiritual Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper, but He Saw the Lord's Supper. Morris Kinda like, like More of a Profession of Faith. On the One Who Receives It and I Can Remember All the Tiny Details Bless Pre-Much House He Saw This Particular Supper Was Kind of Your Affirmation and Your Faith in Christ, Similar to How You Respond Positively Positively to Preaching or Hearing the Word. It's Kind of along That Lines and Martin Luther. He Believed That Christ Was Physically Present in the Supper. Know the Difference between Martin Luther's View and the Roman Catholic View Is a Roman Catholic View Kinda Goes Back to These Sees Me These Kind of Aristotelian Categories Where You Have Accidents and Substance so Accidents Are What Something Appears to Be in Substance Is, What It Actually Is.

But You Can't Really See the Substance You Only See the Accident so Roman Catholic Theology, Especially around the Time of Home in St. Thomas Aquinas Course You Can Develop This Idea.

This Aristotelian Idea of When You Bless the Lord's Supper the Bread and Wine When They Start out There That the Accidents of Bread and Wine in the Substance of Bread and Wine When They're Blessed by a Priest and They Say the Latin Hock Addressed NM Corpus Ma'am This Is My Body. It Literally Transforms the Substance of the Lord's Supper into the Body and Blood of Christ. Both the Bread and the Wine and so the Substance Is Completely Change There's No Substance of the Bread and Wine Left, but the Accidents Remain so It Looks like Bread and Wine Taste like Bread and Wine Substances Body and Blood Physically of Christ, so That Difference from Martin Luther's View, the Sense That He Believed That When You Bless It. When You Say Those Words. You Know You're Still Saying This Is My Body, so He Believed That There Is Some Kind of Sacramental Sacrament Will Happening Whether He Would Call the Transformation. I'm Not Quite Sure What Terminology Would've Used but You're Actually Physically the Physical Presence of Christ Is in the Lord's Supper. However, It's Not Replacing the Substance of the Bread and Wine. It's Kind of Added to It and Is a Term That Reformed and Other Historians Use of His Doctrine and Lutherans Hated. I Was Gonna Mention It, so Sorry to Her Lutheran Listeners, but Reform Have Historically Called Consubstantiation, Con Meeting, like with Substantiation, Meaning Substance, so the Body and Blood of Christ Are Are with the Substance of the Bread and Wine. They Don't Use the Terminology They Call Real Presence. So Anyways This Is the Distinction between the Two Views That Really Separated the Reformation in the Beginning and It They Wrote Letters to Each Other and They Were Very, Very Strongly Opposed to Each Other's View and It Wasn't until the Marburg Colloquy Which Is in 1529. I Had to Pull It up to Separate out Your Was When They Finally Had That Meeting and It's It's the It's the Iconic Meeting Where You See a Painting and What It Is Happened or Not. We Don't Know but Etched on It Was the Latin Hock Addressed NM Corpus Ma'am This Is My Body. And Luther Just Kept Pounding on It, You Know, I Just Kept Saying That over and over and over Again Because He Said You Know He Is View Is That the Bodies Physically There. So How You Know the Words Are so Clear. So Why Don't You Believe That You Know It's It Was Kind of a Sign of Christians Struggling to Understand the Opposing Side.

I Think Nowadays We Have a Little Bit More Understanding or You Know a Bit More Grace.

I Think between the Denominational Lines but Back Then It Was Very, Very Firmly Believe in Them and I Was the First Time That Really the Reformation Can Split a Little Bit in Terms of, You Know They Did, They Couldn't See Each Other Having Fellowship in Terms of Worship Services, Because One Thought That Christ Was Physically Present in the Supper and One Thought That He Was Only Spiritually Present and Then Calvin John Calvin.

He Kinda Had a Middle Way Where He Believed That You Do Become United to the Body and Blood of Christ, but It's Not through a Local Physical Presence, Meaning Jesus Christ, Physical Body, but Are Not in the Supper Itself, but Your Sacramentally United to the Spiritual Presence of Christ in the Supper. And Because You Cannot You Know If You're If You're If You United to the Spiritual Presence of Christ.

United Also to His Physical Body so It's Kinda like Lifting Our Bodies up to Have Lifting Us Spiritually to Heaven in the Heavenly Places to Become United to the Entire Person of Christ, Including the Benefits of His Body and Blood That Were There Were Shed on the Cross so He Had Kind of a Middle View Sort of between the Two, but I like a Study That Recently I Was Fascinated by All the Different Views and and I'm like I Can Kinda See Zwingli's Being. I Can Make Sense and Oh My God Will Luther Makes Less Sense to You Know, but Ultimately I Think I Think I'll Just Alter Calvin's You Get to Me Is Fastening out Think It Disrupts Unity in the Sense of the Universal Church. All Believers, but It Does Cause Us to Have Denominational Differences Because I Can Ask Them Why, Because If You If You Believe That Your Consuming Literally the Physical Body and Blood of Christ or Leno Locally and Someone Believes Something Totally Different. It's Hard to Really Have 100% Communion Do Not Mean Because the Cadets What Communion Represents Is Not Communing with Christ, If You Feel Your Communion with Christ a Different Way to Something Else. I Can Understand Why They Would Not Want to Do That. Me Personally, If I Were the Lutheran Church I Would Have No Problem Taking the Lord's Supper in My Own View Because Just Because We Have Different Opinions of What Is Actually Happening in the Lord's Supper. It Doesn't Mean That You Know That I Don't Think That We Should Be Able to Share It Together Is, like Reading the Bible.

It's Similar to That. It's like We Read the Same Bible and Just Because You Disagree and What It Means. It Doesn't Mean like I Have To Tell the Other Person Know You Can't Read the Bible Because Your View Doesn't Agree with Me. We Both Read Same Bible so I Think If We Partake of the Same Board Supper, You Know, We May Have Different Views of What It Means, but Were Still Communing with Each Other with Christ Is That This First Sgt. Yeah I Mean I Just Thought about My Head into His Eyes like Man I Feel Exactly the Same Way As You Matthew Five� If I Was in the Lutheran Church.

I Have No Problem Taking Communion Either Because You Know Regardless of What Our Beliefs Are Only One Thing Is Happening. I Mean It's Not like in a Catholic Church. It Really Is Becoming the Blood and Flesh of Christ within Lutheranism. It Was Just a Real Presence in You and It Changes Depending on the Denomination like There Really Is Just One Objective Truth out There so You Know, Regardless of Where I Take It Is Still Doing the Same Thing That I've Mentioned before That Hold Grudges against Michael for Disagreeing and I'm Only Going to Do That but Couldn't Have Done Much before That. One of the Things about the American Restoration Movement That Has Kinda Been Important to Me Is This Idea That You Work with Christians Only Were Not the Only Christians and an Openness to Seeking Understanding and Seeking Unity with Fellow Believers, beyond Denominational Lines and Obviously the Restoration Churches Are Perfect. You Know They Split over Musical Instruments and Various Other Things and and and of Course There Have Been People within the Restoration Stridently & Denominational on� Certainly As Part of the History, but This Idea That You Were Christians Only Were Not the Only Christians Has Been Important to Me and Working to Things When You Were Talking Nothing about Holding Zwingli and Luther Admitted to Students over the Lord's Supper. I Think from a Historical Standpoint, It's Interesting Because They're Both Kind of Wrestling through Okay Now.

Now That We Are Kind of Looking to Reform the Catholic Church and in Some Ways Move beyond It. Now What Right Does the Questions Are the Kind of Wrestling with What What Do We Believe about the Lord's Supper. What Do We Believe about Baptism and What Goes on in Those and Those Sacraments Are Ordinances and the Three of Us Are Kinda Doing Something Similar) Come Out Of the Latter Day Saints Faith and Work Were Thinking through Now.

What Right with Regards to These Things and so like I Said I'm to Hold Grudges against Michael, but Some Items to All, Thank You for Burying the Hatchet Was a Good Have To Moderate a Fight If You Want to Do It Next Week. You Know, We Can Plan for What I Want to Fight Him. I Just Did a Video with the Guns All Morning and I Have My Hands Full with Younger Mormon Michael so I Don't Want to Make Any Other Enemies. So I'm Not Looking to Pick a Fight Either. Just Remember, If You like. If You're to Pull like Mike Tyson You Know Eventually Fielding to Bite off Your Younger Selves Ear. You Know, Back in the Future Style. Your Future Is Great You're Saying I Can't Hurt Him Because of Anything I Do to Him Hurt Me under His Hair Covered His Head in Acid or Something Tore It out Okay Burritos of the Outer Ring Is Not to Hear from You. Please Visit You Free to Send Us a Message That Appreciated the Also Have and How to Write His Own Can Subscribe to the Brightness Podcast on Cass Box Cast the Stitches.

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