Becoming PERFECT

Your right and are welcome by fireflies to the brightness podcasts this week will be reacting to a video from book of Mormon, central, is there series the cabal B series only insights I think is the actual name. It's it's a video from September 21-27 posted on YouTube. One of my sisters to is still LBS recently sent me a message and she wrote, quote remember when we were talking about faith versus works in grace.

I remember that you felt that in the LDS church.

We don't truly believe in being saved by grace. I was confused because if you listen to this podcast. This is what I remember being taught in seminary, we might still agree to disagree about what the LDS church actually teaches." After she sent Bessie linked me to YouTube video from come follow me insights and guidance by book of Mormon central videos little less than an hour long and it contains the teachings of Taylor Halverson and Tyler Griffin. These two men are discussing 35 chapters 12 through 16. From the book of Mormon within the narrative of the book of Mormon. The resurrected Jesus appears to people group called the neophytes who, according to the book of Mormon lived somewhere in the Americas. So in third Nephi chapter 11.

Jesus appears in in the following several chapters he preaches to the neophytes a sermon that is nearly verbatim the sermon on the mount from Matthew chapters 5 to 7 in the Bible there are several key differences between them at the end sermon on the mount and what Latter Day Saints referred to as the sermon at the temple in third Nephi Taylor and Tyler focus in on one of the key differences, namely the comparison between Matthew 548 and third Nephi 1248 Matthew 548 reads quote be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. But there Nephi 1248 reads. Therefore, I would that you should be perfect, even as I your father who is in heaven is perfect. Today were responding to the claims made in this video and also today we have a special guest with us. David Flournoy, he's Michael's brother McChicken over David to give us a little bit of an introduction to himself and me. I listen to this terribly old podcast extended to be here just a little about myself. I'm not necessarily an apologist or anything along those nature have been a mistake. Go for a long time. I was bored. Missionary 16 ward mission leader 18 back from a mission probably last eight years of work missionary as well. And now the primary there is a train go primary for those inspiration versus desperation Skype things that I have enjoyed talking with people of all faiths about the gospel and differences that we can. Thanks David Michael menu wrangle you into this, and if so how, so Michael actually week we talked just not every day about you know the job we have a similar job that we do so we ranted about that usually starts with them almost every day. It goes into some top of the gospel when we have good conversation so that it's all my way home. He watching this long video we start talking about it sounds interesting and hence here's the link and watch the Lincoln here I am, and Jesse is not me.

I know he says he's not an apologist but his nickname is officially the brome Mormon apologists is that because it's like Pro Mormon Borough weight is the name the name isn't on it was the brome and Amanda staff for Manas X Mormon apologists is the brome and while I'm out of it only like five minutes into an Iraqi off the rails that this not anything new for us guys say that I so what we've got here is a number of questions based on the video and share a couple of clips from the video and then just, have a conversation about it. The semi sounds good to queue up the first clip here for us and will get it going. Here we go. First clip Taylor and I'm Tyler this is book of Mormon, central to come, follow me insights today. Third Nephi 12 through 16 were just so excited to talk about the time that Jesus spent with the neophytes in the Lamanites in the New World and to give perspective here that might be helpful as you read these chapters and this is a covenantal perspective. No surprise we've been talking about coming flat and actually so has God. The Scriptures are very much focused on his compass with us in a covenant he's offered us so that we can return back to his presence and wish to spend just as a review reminder of the two major covenants from ancient times from the time of the Bible. It's to covenant the mountains we have Abraham covenants, and symbolically, we might say that that comes from Mount Moriah, and then we have the Sinai covenant with Moses and the Israelites after God save them from Egyptian bondage will split Sinai here so the covenant path. In some ways crosses right between these two mountains and it is Jesus advises altogether and that's the first video guys your comments on this opening section of the video from book of Mormon, central, what is this cortical covenant path that they're talking about.

And do you remember that terminology being used when you were LDS Michael and Matthew and in what you are experienced David with that that terminology of covenant path. Matthew wanted to take a first yeah sure yeah was interesting. I don't really ever remember just thinking all all but the opening section. I remember ever being taught that there was the two mounts and that Jesus connects the two. I was always kind of believed that you know is always kind of taught more dispensations where God would reveal the fullness of his truth throughout each dispensations. We started with Adam and then with Noah and then Ina could think was, I think it's on the timeline goes and then with Abraham and Moses like each time that the Gospels given to the earth. Each time there's a new dispensation and so than it with each dispensations they give authority to give doctrine and they set up the church and then eventually at the end of each bit dispensation ends in apostasy without thymic honesty.

The cycle of apostasy of God revealing the gospel, giving her thing necessary to the gospel and the people turning away from the gospel and then kind of having started new, and so that leads up to the restoration with Joseph Smith where it starts all over again. This idea of where he speaks of the two mountains like with with with Abraham and Moses. It's interesting that he contrasts those two things he makes a connection to where it will talk about this thing is in second point, but just briefly talked about how Abraham is God's promises to us and with Moses his godparents are promises to God in the Jesus bridges that gap I never really heard that that explain in that kind of way and I don't know I don't ever remember being taught that maybe I just fell sleep in a seminary class or something, but I was saw that the I was always taught that the law Moses was kind like a lesser law is kinda more external ordinances.

The Lester authority was given because of disobedience in the desert that they had disobeyed God and that's why they were given. You know, the carnal commandments and the erotic priesthood so I don't know with that paradigm and in mind, it doesn't make and I'm trying to bridge that gap in my brain of what he's trying to say when you meet with when he says Jesus bridges the gap between Abraham and Moses because I see it almost is like a downhill slope do not mean where Abraham at the fullness of the gospel to them by the time of Moses said kind disobeyed and so God gives the lesser commandments and Lester ordinances so to meet and see my two mounts and but Jesus bridge the gap is more like a slip that went downward that would eventually went back up with Jesus returning so I don't know this doesn't make sense from his family and his point accent sounds familiar to me. Matthew may not. My experience as well. My understanding was that Abraham had the fullness of the gospel the same covenant path that we had today in modern times.

That is being baptized and get to the Holy Ghost. Probably all the temple ordinances as well and instantly with Adam. The probate Christ says that he was baptized by the Holy Spirit. So my goal is ordinances or are still there and it was also my understanding there were periods of dispensation with the Gospels on the earth. And then there were periods of apostasy when there wasn't a prophet, and there weren't covenant path, but I never fully understood why there was a long, Moses in the middle of that is the law Moses never gone away since it was instituted until Christ came in so there's never really a full period of dispensation Acrobat when removing the higher law again and you be interested in David Scott's on that envelope.

Moses kind of threw a wrench in there for me made a little harder for me to understand what you think. All personnel my turn cool. First off there with you. I'm not sure exactly where the same Jesus bridges the gap between these two.

I was also dispensations profits apostasy along with that there is the idea of ongoing restoration like they talk about that in general, conferences where we know that now we live in the fullness of the dispensation times where it's supposed to be a fool. Restoration but a little recent years. They stay at the restoration still continuing servicing revelation which is what you'd expect with the church that has revelation profit. There is continued revelation about how I would imagine that it would be similar in Isa dispensations and the in olden times to make you know that the don't know if they had the fullness of the gospel original Tybalt that there was a prophet, and there were truth being restored and imagine with Abraham Addo. Specifically, yes, they probably didn't agree with you Matthew that it does seem like a slippery slope down but I don't know if I would say that every single time the prophet was on the earth at the fullness of the gospel was present as well because if we are to save compared to now works 200 years of the restoration are still things being revealed and imagine a similar back then I was also taught him a covenant growing up so that was kind of like the idea of missionary work like the whole world will be blessed by Steve's sort of thing and I'm sure were familiar with that as well. I was taught about the Abraham a covenant not so much about a covenant with the Mosaic law more just this is the 10 Commandments.

This is the law and not necessarily a covenant being established with the Mosaic law Arnesen you all hit on a couple of things that I I had taken notes on as well, especially with regard to dismissal of this weird interesting thing that is going on in LDS theology, where they talk about dispensations right and in LDS theology dispensations are little bit different than when you see in broader Christianity with dispensational lists because with with LBS you dispensations is more related to the authority given to each of the dispensation heads and so there's that.

But I also I was taking a look at my theology professor's book set free. What the Bible says about grace, the CI remembered him saying something American about covenants and I wanted to revisit what he says he's talking here specifically about holder extremely and the development of his theology and the Reformation. He says this she says having thus rejected the view of baptism at Christendom and uniformly taught for 1500 years.

Zwingli took upon himself to create exile oh, a completely new document baptism. In so doing formulated a whole new hermeneutic hermeneutical approach to the Bible, now known as covenant theology and summers you rejected the traditional distinction between the old covenant and the new covenant and introduce the idea that ever since at least Abraham. There has been just one covenant of grace. What we call the new covenant is actually the same covenant God made with Abraham Mosaic covenant was merely a secondary temporary expedient when it was set aside the Abraham a covenant continued on and still continues on today. The church today is under the covenant God made with Abraham.

This is the concept of covenant unity so I am now the candidate in the two was doing. Zwingli actually has to say about that rather than just my theology professor summary of it, but I found interesting in that description of Zwingli's theology with regards to covenants that it very much mirrors what you see in an LDS teaching. With regards to the law of Moses being a lower law and that the law given to Abraham being a higher law, which is what I was taught as latter-day St. growing up and you see that especially liked and met in the Joseph translation of like Deuteronomy 10 to where he says, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tables which celebrate guests and here's where Joseph adds in saving the words of the everlasting covenant of the holy priesthood, and thou shalt put them in the ark, and you know that I remember sitting in elders quorum lessons and then and being taught that you know that those kind neck neck and it teaches right that that Moses came down from the from the mountain and broke the tablets because he saw Israel and apostasy.

And then he went back up on the mountain and got a different set of tablets and that the law of Moses the 10 Commandments was that lower law that was given kind of in anger. I guess with regards to what their Taylor and Tyler talk about in the video of the covenant path, Matthew, Michael and I were when we start talking about doing the steps of I was trying to remember.

Like if I ever heard that terminology II don't remember it being a catchphrase buzzword when I was still in the LDS church and I left in 2010.

So it's been a good 10 years and I did. I do canister jump on the LDS website to see what staring at the earliest thing I was able to find was the 2013 the primary general president gave a speech at BYU using that covenant path terminology in her title and then there's a poem published in the friend magazine which is for children in 2014 called my covenant path and then quote keep on the covenant path!

Was was Russell and Nelson's title for his first message to the LDS church is prophecy or an regulator in 2018.

So things like is taken up some terminology that was initially used with with children. It sounds like, so I and David's thoughts on that because for for me that the terminology wasn't fair with what your experience over the last several years.

This is that terminology really prominent right now I know are always going to talk about making and keeping covenants renewing covenants growing up.

You know I heard about the five saving ordinances sort of thing which looking back at it with the more grace entered on her mind. I would say to me there's only one saving ordinance and then the other ones can change what you're doing but there's only one that actually brings you to the celestial kingdom. But I gather there has been this talk about keeping covenants and making covenants with God and innocent. I feel like this video has. I spent helpful for latter-day Saints because when you look at let's say the first covenant baptismal covenant. We promise to take his name upon us to keep his commandments.

And always remember him, which is impossible, were not going to always remember him and work human worth why we have fallen nature were not going to always keep his commandments. And so there becomes this contention within ourselves, or that I don't know the right word exactly but there's this battle in between ourselves, where there is a hey with me. This covenant with God that were going to be perfect so to speak in God's keeping his eye. He sees perfect peace. Jesse's right, but I can totally see how there's this battle between our software were constantly falling short inside. I feel like the beginning part of this.

While I don't agree with his terminology or working gets to where he was going. I do feel like the beginning of that video was helpful for Latter Day Saints to be more grace entered and not allow themselves. You know, like say you know what, I'm not guilty on my own but I joked with the same. He's carrying that burden. So I think it will be helpful to a lot of Latter Day Saints and ultimately that's why my sister sent in our ongoing conversation about you know are our differing beliefs so we'll see if that the video is a whole and lands. There are no banks. Anybody want to hack comment further on the first section or anything that's been said before play second clip yet David was saying to me and I didn't agree with his terminology or how he arrived at where he did I get to see the things I did like unity said nobody can make us perfect except for Christ and I thought that when he said about how Christ wants our loyalty. That was true at least I don't think that that's what perfection means and that context that you will get their next video clip. As we talked about this briefly Abraham a covenant is all about God's promises to us will think covenant is what God invited us to promise to him. So it's our promises to God and this is summarized by the 10 Commandments which explain or offer a pathway for us to show our loving loyalty back to God and God offer this covenant.

He basically said here's how I would like for you to show me your love and loyalty so that you can prosper in the land they asked us the second of the two clips. Do you agree with the way Taylor Halverson tell Halverson characterizes these covenants and if so, why am I not been there on this.

First of all sound it made it look like just as you, what organs I've been driving listening to this video.

I reviewed it, but is saying that these covenants are two sides of the same covenant is the impression that you got because we know that the covenant path in Mormonism includes our side. Things that we are supposed to do and he is categorizing that under the Mosaic law and is putting God's promises under the Abraham a covenant, but my understanding is that these are two totally separate covenants and so I don't think you can type them together like that and say that they are both working simultaneously while Moses isn't in effect for asked now so first thing this is forcing the Abraham covenant is something entirely different, at least in the LDS minds and it still doesn't work because there's still something required Abbasids not just the promises that God is making so I don't really understand how these coming up with this. It makes no sense to me as well. A I've never heard of them being together. I am active in which I've never heard of them, together with an interesting comparison right there with you. Michael they have no relation whatsoever to each other. They are completely different covenants made to different groups of people. In fact, I've never heard of the law of Moses being a covenant more of my this is what you need to do. These are my commandments, and not show loyalty to me. Thou shalt not, but I would say there separate as well just I was going to add to that, not only was interesting because it seemed like him looking back I remember all those seen a Sunday school lessons when we talk about the 10 Commandments.

It's we we teach it to follow it because not because we feel like we know because obvious they were not under the Mosaic covenant, but it's it's kind like David was saying earlier about how with the restoration the ideas of their kind of things from every dispensation are kinda being brought back to our dispensation to our time and select the 10 Commandments was kind of like Selleck were rewriting the stone tablets but it's like okay guys bring these back. These are things a God's assets to follow today but I wouldn't describe so for my perspective. Now I wouldn't say that that our promises to God are summarized by the 10 Commandments since I was so since I left LDS church. I've kind of got into the reformed understanding of Scripture and one thing that they always talk about is covenant theology and that's one thing I really love studying and there's there's not one single understanding of covenant theology.

There different streams of covenant theology so I could probably talk your heads off all day about covenant theology and people's different understanding of and stuff is really fascinating to me because I do I do.

I was coming on to do that doing and refund for the okay gasket take a nap or make a sandwich or something but yeah so one of the things is, we talk about the covenant of grace and and and that's not something that you can let that term is just referring to the gospel.

You know that the gospel that God preaches to us today, where play starts on the way back in Genesis chapter 3 where God made that the promise. You know, the serpent would would bruise her heel, but the seed of the woman would crush his head in the seed of the woman is specifically referring to Christ, so that's that's called the Pro evangelion everything going on in all its call in on how to pronounce it yet that's that's what it's referring to is like that's that's the first time when God promised that sin would be destroyed. The other there would be a Messiah to come and since then it it's been slowly revealed in more and more defined and clearer images and teachings.

So we see like with Moses raising the serpent on the staff, but that's representing disappointed Christ to a down the cross we see with the animal sacrifices, starting even just from Genesis that that's pointing to how there would be a perfect lamb that would be slain for our sins so there's this idea of the of this progression in Revelation's progression in becoming more and more clear as to what would be revealed. So it's not like a haphazard kind of like you know God revealed something to this group of people and and they rebelled and fit and they failed in their covenant path. I guess you could say. And then he revealed it again to someone else you know it's it's God has been working throughout history to slowly reveal more more over time so you all can limit back is like going out to keep going forever but so the reformed view is that the 10 Commandments are the summary of the moral law. So in the Mosaic covenant. There were the reformed view roughly in their it's and you can't separate each law into one of three categories is overlap but there are three basic categories, there's the civil judicial law, you know, like when it comes to punishments when it comes to you know if you steal your your neighbor's ox.

You pay them back so much. Plus extra know those kind of laws there's also the ceremonial laws dealing with all of the animal sacrifices that perform know the cleanliness laws.

The sky think the ceremonial cleanliness and there's the moral laws and is a great book. It's called the finger of God. I think I can't member.

The authors name but to really deep book.

I been trying to read it, but it's a slow read is so deep that he goes and it shows how all of that the civil codes are kinda like just going further in depth of the 10 Commandments are the 10 commitments are like general moral principles and then each section of Scripture after that in Leviticus and Deuteronomy goes into more depth on how okay here's how you apply the first commandment is a bloodsucking commitment to connecting Isley fasting to read that so I would see the 10 commitments not as something that the God is inviting us to promise to him. But it's it's the moral law which is the law by which we are held accountable to God all people are held accountable to God so easy even before even before Moses and Israel. We see people being judged for idolatry for adultery.

Things like this.

And so when we stand before God to be judged. You know will be held accountable to him by the 10 Commandments or less.

A summary of the moral law is that the full extent of the more losses because summaries have boiling it down to like you know these are the core tenets of the moral law that God expects us to live by, so that a tradable doubts that much I could but as luck� Yeah so with regards to what you commented on Michael was young I was struggling understands where where they're going with the with kind of equating the Abraham a covenant with the Mosaic covenant, trying to make it like two sides of the same covenant where where one is God's promises and the other is our promises to God. I know that's kind of the standard LDS definition of a covenant right to a promise. God makes promises and then we make promises since like they're trying to fit back onto the two covenants, but I don't see them as related in that way. Yeah, I totally agree consistent unity that neither one of them is really a covenant until you together MH skylight okay to grounds are now making a right gas. So going on from there. In the video.

Taylor notes that some scholars think that Matthew model. The first five chapters of his gospel on the first five books of Moses or the Cheraw and the and that is consistent with the theme of Matthew's gospel which presents Jesus as the new Moses closing out the section of the video.

However, you kinda wrap since LDS thought in reference to Jesus teaching in the sermon on the Mount.

He says this in a load up our next video clip. Finally, right before they enter the holy land. Moses summarizes the entire Mosaic covenant again for the first five before the going holy land in the entire book of Deuteronomy is this covenant that Deuteronomy is a fancy word that literally means second law or second telling or teaching of the law so so essentially Moses gets on the mountain and delivers the lot to the Israelites before they can enter into the holy land will think about this. Matthew 12345 what happens in Matthew five Jesus gets on the mountain as the new Moses and delivers an update to this covenant. He basically updates.

Deuteronomy updates the stipulations updates what we should be promising to God updates how we sure for fourth God for the sermon on the Mount is the update to the covenant, and so sure if you are a Jew living in the time of Nephi, the way you show your loving loyalty to God in the covenant is by keeping the 10 Commandments in the time of Jesus.

Jesus said Moses said here's the stipulation for how to show little to God.

I now sing into you do these things and so this is what modern revelations about when the time of Jesus it would been moderate. Revelation is that God will update the stipulation for showing loyalty in order that we might have full benefit for the promises he offers us so with this perspective, I want you to think about how what Jesus does for the neophytes now is something similar.

She comes and says you have been living the stipulations. These commandments good job phone from his you work. Let me give you an update for how to show love and loyalty to God in the confident in our day.

We have modern-day profits and they reveal to us the will of God in every now and then there are updates on the expectations of God provides for us for how we live safely to him guys so little bit longer of a clip from the ones you you before but it is.

Is that what you view Jesus is doing in the sermon on the Mount see updating the Mosaic stipulations to receive God's promises. Question Matthew Brooklyn cannot answer this is a pain, especially in light of what he just was saying about covenant theology so he makes a comparison to Deuteronomy.

The second telling of the law and says that in Matthew five which is parallel that Jesus is making an update which he stated in Deuteronomy. What's to talk about and there is a an update to the law of Moses or is it more specification on that law. So you have Deuteronomy itself, and not of Matthew five yeah, you mentioned the books that come after the will almost given his talking about those laws specifically would you say that that is an update so yeah it's like an instant is both an exodus I think and litigation Deuteronomy where it's kind of fleshing out all of the particulars of the laws that would be executed in Israel at that time and so a lot of them are, case laws, like I think that's a term you know where where judges will take like a principal and say okay we have this principle of judges and lawyers felt expendable to say how to reply to the situation in that situation and that situation and so it's kind of like this, God's doing is he saying the 10 Commandments there. The only commands are written by the finger of God directly and so the rest of the Commandments are written by basically Moses, so the 10 commands hold a special place in the law and that's one reason why reform scholars believe that it's it's very clear that God made these to be special there within the law that he gave to Moses, but their distinct and that there no written by him there then was kept him on the tablets in the only ones kept in the ark of the covenant.

All the rest of the laws are Cited so they held a special place so in Deuteronomy Leviticus are not there not changing or updating the law there just kind of going into the more specifics of how to actually kind of enforce that law. If that makes sense and I think what he was saying is that in Matthew five Jesus is updating the law that's given in Deuteronomy. I think that's what the point he is making it. I guess it depends on how you interpret updating because Rosalie asked. My understanding was that Jesus was coming and he was adding Commandments that weren't there originally.

He was actually dating in the sense it's like your writing new chapters in a box you know really making the Commandments more strict and the way that I view it now is that he was kind doing what you just said is going on in Deuteronomy that he was specifying what the law already says he wasn't really changing and so united in one reason reason I'm saying that is that you look at Romans chapter 3 starting in verse 19 says, now we know what whatever the law says it speaks of those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped in the whole world may be held held accountable to God and I know some translations estate remaining guilty before God. So when I was like okay this is stricter commandments. This is great because these commandments allow us to become holy to become righteous and to come closer to God.

But the way that now is that the law is there to condemn us not to make us holy, and the law was already condemning us and all the that the stricter specifications do is make it condemn us even more. I think that that's when Jesus is really doing is he saying you know you been saying that's committed adultery but I'm telling you, if you even look at a woman to lust after her. You have committed adultery in your heart and so I think what he's doing is not really an update. He is showing these people how strict that law actually handles and one of the things he says in the video was in this clip specifically but he quotes Jesus is kinda saying you been saying you've heard this, but now I am telling you, and he kind of misquotes Jesus because Jesus and Satan but now I am telling you is something brand-new, he says, but I tell you that this is the case, so I don't really agree with what he's implying in the video perspective.

I lower law fire law type thing, maybe not as different aspect of the gospel is more like Michael St. stricter interpretation stricter understanding of it, like you know there's a lot of timing. There's a lot of consecration like okay don't kill Bill commit adultery only to lust after somebody like tears. The higher aspects as far as covenants go. It's interesting the LDS covenant of baptism into the prayer.

It says basically that were willing to take upon us the name of the son will always remember him keep his commandments, that we may always have the spirit we witnessed in blue with that will also be for you. Emerson's thing is that will be willing to take upon us. His name because really it's our willingness but were not the one that puts his name on us. He's the one that that cause us in his robes of righteousness as we accept that covenant. We now have his name on us my theology.

Michael told me about the street and attach a grace that generates on the little bit I apologize, but there is imputed righteousness that amputated righteousness and enable righteousness and so my understanding is when you are baptized.

We take upon us the name of Christ we go into the water also dies, we become new in Christ. So now we have Christ name on us were children of Christ where judges are God there and say you know here's all your sins.

I don't care how we reprinted you don't make it you're not there you have Christ you your good you know it's been imputed and see you so your your state pretty much all he has theology, I think fits in well with baptism if you taking his name upon you. Now you have his name your state. The next thing is a past call of discipleship which next day goes into a little bit but I feel like she makes it sound like this is the path to salvation is not nostalgic path of discipleship and where was off on that. I feel like the path of discipleship covered talked about his talk about several times and it goes right along with. I believe the evangelical beliefs. Sanctification, which is basically after it incorrectly. If I'm wrong, but after you've been saved had his his righteousness imputed to you. You are then on a lifelong journey to become more and more like and so when you look at this higher law that Christ gives me. I look at this is not necessarily path that this is my requirements to salvation, but rather that this is what I need to do to become more of a better follower of Jesus Christ. So imputed baptism, and then as I'm becoming a disciple of Christ, amputating sin from me, but that doesn't save you will never build amputate nothing from me to save and that as I'm following in doing the things that Christ wants me to do. He's enabling me with our do it but ultimately the power salvation is amputated, amputated, and he's hated me and my belief that baptism that's a whole not so I apologize it's okay can I can ask a follow-up question before. If Christ's righteousness imputed baptism why the further covenants by the temple covenants and ordinances yeah my ass that so basically the way I understand it, baptized his righteousness imputed to us and it talks about in the second Nephi and also if you're to take the LDS position. John chapter 3 verse five talks about, you know, being born is one of the spirit in order to enter heaven� To see heaven pretty much the kingdom of God. So being baptized brings you right there to the celestial kingdom there with God. I believe the LDS theology. I want to see Christian theology to you on this is when you're in heaven you're an angel to the most high.

So the further ordinances when you when you're endowed the company. You make that point is to become pretty much his promise that you become a king in the following kingdom was kingdom and then last one is exultation which is eternal marriage and so that one is kind of a partnership in order to have children, whatever it may be spiritual and physical children. There is no specification that I know in order to be exalted in my understanding it's something that only married man and a married woman can do. So that's kind of those other covenants are more or less what you're doing in heaven, but not necessarily getting to heaven. So is it your view than that everyone who is baptizes the LDS church is automatically inherent and inherent tour of the celestial kingdom might talk about this a lot I want to say yes when you're when you're baptized.

I would say you should. But it's interesting because at some point. Salvation is not just a checklist. It's a personal thing with God. You have to have that moment where Christ you accepted Christ in your heart, and I think it's interesting what we've talked a lot about this because it you know and how it talks about, you know, if you just have a desire to believe, even as if it was a seed that will grow ever talk about that as a faith for salvation faith doesn't need to be a lot to enter to salvation.

I believe it's Jesus that talks about faith the size of a mustard seed.

So even if your faith isn't that great.

It if you're answering the questions to baptism to be baptized. Truthfully, I would save an eight-year-old could be saved but the other thought that I had is when you get the gift of the Holy Ghost says I will have to look at it.

I believe it's an invitation to receive the Holy Ghost. Asante received the Holy Ghost is not. I'm giving you the Holy Ghost says there's a second part of baptism where you become an actual follower of Christ where you receive the Holy Ghost into unit that you now completed it only thing I have grievances with that is, how do you know I wanted is a hard look I don't know if I can see every single person that has been baptized will 100% because there's so much about the heart that you don't know and that's where I kinda like the idea. When you receive the Holy Ghost. That's where you completed that ordinance. In reality, there is a passage in the document covenants 76 I believe were talking about 3� of glory and is talking about the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom are in one of the things it says about them is that they are those who are not valiant in the testimony of Christ, and so you know that that passage historically has been used by LDS leaders to enjoying Latter Day Saints to greater faithfulness and and as I view this video and their kinda setting up this idea that modern prophets add on to update the requirements that are upon us to show our faithfulness to show our loyalty to God and then their kinda bringing in that classical LDS since your theology or way of being saved of perfect obedience to whatever the current prophets and leaders of the church are saying are requirements.

Do you see that as well � and the video in the video I felt like it was. I don't get into the whole perfect equals loyalty thing. Okay, okay skip over that. Right now, but it does seem to me more like instead of it being a perfection in order to keep the cabinets. It's more about he's looking upon your car, your is leisure striving for everything that that you're covered is when I got out of the first Of the video so I thought was interesting to that country might've been business this for speaker to make some usernames on the same bring talks about how when Jesus went to the Nephi's they had a sleep command that was different from the biblical account which is to follow those 12 disciples chosen and to say that I trust you enough to follow these inspired leaders and I can see that going that that same way as were St. Paul be these updates you need to be faithful to look the leaders are staying at any given time, so I could change its fluid going was what David was saying to I think this boils down to know David, I don't think that your position is what most Latter Day Saints hold to think of her poblano Latter Day Saints even mentioned imputation for this kind of environment. He mentioned that some things that I tugged in some categories and just to kinda correct corrected a little bit the ones that I said the existence of this tree hasn't righteousness to Damon you know there's going righteousness is enabled righteousness of drug righteousness mean that we do our best and God makes the grass enabled righteousness being that grace empowers us to overcome our stands and actually be perfect and there is imputed righteousness where Christ's obedience is basically given to last and I think that the LDS mindset means very heavily, at least at some point even if you were to embrace imputed righteousness, is there something you have to do first, whether it's baptism, and that baptismal covenant has the commandments attached to it.

And so even though he says that Christ wants our loyalty, as we'll see in the second half of the video.

Loyalty eventually translates into is obeying with the leaders of the church say and keeping all of the commandments. And so it's not just loyalty.

It is obedience as well. Sinking back towards this point and also the previous point where specifically on the point where he says that modern prophets and apostles sometimes update the stipulations for receiving God's promises so he talks about how he reads and in in Matthew five and also in third Nephi to read the portion see sets and met D5 got a lot of tabs open so says you have heard that the ancients were told, you shall not commit murder many from the new American Standard, and whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court but I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court and whoever says to his brother you good for nothing, or rock.

I think it is in the King James shall be guilty before the Supreme Court never says you fool, shall be guilty enough to go into to the fiery hell, so it's kind of implied or taught even explicitly in when I was LDS that yelled like we are talking at this whole time that it's been several times that the old law and the new longing at higher requirements, higher laws, higher commandments that you that you are now asked fulfill, but it's great in that book and from the finger of God. He he talks about how I might be another book but it's it's it's not the Jesus is giving Annette an entirely new or higher expectations. It's kind of like he's saying here's what it says in the commandment and then he kind of like divulges.

He expounds it he says is not just saying not to kill someone not to murder not to commemorative that's all talking about. It's also talking about. Even if you curse someone you good for nothing, you fool others passages you can find in the Old Testament that say that you know that basically teach the exact same moral principle that you are supposed to curse out someone for no reason. The same thing with committing adultery know it's been said, do not commit adultery but I say if you look at look at a woman to lust after her, you commit adultery your heart. You can find passages in the Old Testament that also tell you, not even to look upon someone.

I mean if you look at the think mems itself was the 10th commandment.

Do not covet. So that's a lust. That's the sin of of the heart of the lust of the mind so even to sticking to the 10 Commandments, we see that God is saying, look, it's not just about what you do hourly.

It's also about your thoughts about your heart about what's going on inside so I don't think Jesus is teaching a new law he's teaching them what they should know and probably what has been kind of living a corrupted but kind of been lost in the shuffle over time. You know they have been focusing on really the heart issue really focusing on okay converting to God in a really letting not just being circumcised of the flesh being circumcised of the heart is not something I can want to point out that I don't think Jesus was teaching a whole brand-new thing or higher thing. I think he was trying to bring them back to where they should be your God is called them to yeah yeah good covered covered in the commitment ignore the chat looks like Mr. pages has arrived. But we can cover the next question that I had an excellent comment on a little bit. The next question was kind of in relation to the way they kind of set up in the video the thick of the classical LDS view is that you have prophets and apostles throughout time updates stipulations to receive God's promises.

Matthew said 11 passages from from the Bible that I would point to that regard is the Matthew 23 which says then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, quote the scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seriously saying that they actually have that authority.

So doing observe whatever they tell you, but not the work they do, for they preach, but do not practice, they tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger and the only place within Jesus's ministry where he talks about the burdens that the scribes and the Pharisees lay upon the people do additional commands that are really the heart of the gospel and so I think that there's a danger there and I think you'll see in the video later on that when when can the next guy takes over the teaching. He talks a little bit about the way that Latter Day Saints feel and I would just challenge listeners to two to think about that, why, why do Latter Day Saints feel the way that she is describing is not uncommon and so one of her next video clip in the next section of the video Taylor Halverson sets up their teaching on Matthew 548 and third Nephi 1248 and he says this but what's interesting is is a summary statement that shows up both in the sermon the Mount in the New Testament, as well as here in third Nephi very significant and sometimes we misunderstand it a bit.

As members of the church. I know that I'm a perfectionist and I have struggled with this phrase in the past and let me share with you. It shows up at the very end of the first chapter the sermon the map both in Matthew five and 3512 is here in verse 48 after laying out many of the stipulate update the stipulations of like how to be faithful to God. Jesus says I would that you should be perfect even if I were your father who is in heaven is perfect with some practice just a bit. There's some interesting things going on this phrase perfect as I've mentioned has caused consternation and worry for people because we feel that the like.

I gotta make myself perfect and actually it's interesting there's only one person that can truly make you perfect in its Jesus all the Jesus asks is for our loving loyalty� Actually is a marriage metaphor.

I'm sure my wife would be would love to be married to perfect man.

I'm not quite there yet. If, however, she has a loyal husband. That's actually sufficient. I may make mistakes but I'm loyal. I'm completely committed to my wife. We are in a covenantal relationship loyal to that I may not be perfect but I'm loyal similarly she's loyal to me.

And that's what God offers us. He's always been loyal to his people always always always and he wants our loyalty back. So it turns out that in the covenant.

The context, the word perfect, actually can mean loyalty or faithfulness and I find that very helpful because I cannot be perfect, and I shouldn't ride to be perfect because then I'm nine Jesus explained that just briefly only Jesus can truly make me perfect in the sense that I have no sir. Only Jesus can do that I have to reach out to receive that from him that Sue my loyalty and my faithfulness as a reminder sacrament every week is opportunity for us to declare our loyalty and are faithful to God as a we actually are showing covenantal perfection by particular sacrament every week.

God does not make the gospel super hard, no life is hard, but he tries to keep it simple just love me he says and love your neighbor are so nasty here. This is where we get to talk about this perfect equals loyalty or faithfulness equation.

I know you want to touch on that dated, but do you think Taylor's teaching here is good news and why am I not anyone jump in their so I think that he is bringing a very real problem and he is exactly right when he says that there is consternation that is caused by this statement of perfectionist as well as I have a lot of the same issues when I was, yes, I was always trying to be perfect and I was always falling on my face and I think he's hundred percent correct when he says that we can't be perfect and in that case if we are trying to be perfect repented were denying Christ because he's the only one we can make this perfectly cannot perfect ourselves and when you said earlier, I do actually like what he said about what will we really need to be as boil to God, I agree with that but I think him trying to insert that into Matthew 548 does not work.

It's just doesn't make sense at sucking all about sin and in righteousness, and then for him to suddenly say to be loyal like our father in heaven is loyal is just to extract to me. I'm pretty sure you're in agreement that David but then I think the bigger problem is you she goes to the accounting third Nephi where also Jesus comes in.

He says be perfect even measure even as I your father in heaven is perfect and I kind of implies for still using loyalty there.

That implies that Jesus was not loyal during his mortal ministry and he certainly was. I mean take to go to the point of going to the cross.

I think you can get any more loyal than that. So my initial thoughts are kind jump in and say some more here little bit later by one open it up to you guys to school so first off, I do completely agree with the idea that we should not be kicking ourselves about not being perfect human nature. So obviously we will never be perfect on her. All that's up part of the problem.

You have the next family status document like this staircase thing what he's talking about the repentance process has a continual cycle which I think is great for discipleship, but when he starts talking about it being our path to heaven that likely had mentioned earlier that you thought that my belief in imitation was contrary to a lot of LDS people and I think the terminology is different and I think a lot of people initially are you start saying it's enabled righteousness. He gives power to do what you start really having a conversation. Maybe it's different for me because Adobe has and they're not seeing it as an attack, but the people that I've talked to unsuspecting you know were saved by grace, even after all we can do like there's really it's not us. No matter how much we try we cannot so many ways you can offend God. I think that is what Massey was talking about. This is the real law like this is what really was supposed be required is much more than just the basics. All been talking about and yummy. Think about all the ways that you can offend God, no one would ever make it to having I think most of yes will agree that yes, it is pretty much it's all Christ. But his righteousness has to be put on the judgment was done with this since defendant and you can fill in the gaps so personal. I happen to know couple about as an ecologist and no imputation is and would disagree with the machine just so you know there's definitely something saying this is not compatible with with LES least I think it actually it actually can be as long as it's attached to the ordinances or something like that. I mean, the book of Mormon does saying we are saved by relying solely on the merits of Christ in us not imputation and I don't know what is. You know it was 20, listening to these two guys because they're telling you very different message like this.

Give this this speech they didn't actually compare notes because you know this guy says that perfection means loyalty.

Then at the very very end. You know like the last two minutes. Tyler's like yeah perfection it means to be complete and kinda more than traditional LDS view but is receiving the exact opposite thing almost take clips from these guys and intermingle them and it would be a debate that's really interesting about you thoughts on back to perfection my thoughts on the perfection thing is to thought that I have one of these. Mike and I were talking earlier today, but first off, I mean later, he does come back and say you know it's complete. And the reason that he didn't say at first I was because he had getting completed the atonement, which to me is a hard stretch my my interpretation, the difference between those was he was resurrected at that point. So to me what he's saying.

Be perfect, even as I order your father which is in heaven is perfect.

It's almost 11 temptation to discuss the kingdom be be perfected more or less in resurrected body that was once thought that Michael and I were talking about is Michael mentioned right before he said that Matthew was talking about his father and there is might not of been excluding himself at all� He's talking about his father.

I think either way that that could be the other thought that I had was there's a lot of scriptures late or not Scripture talks in general conference lately that have really cannot help just try to get over that perfectionism at one of them was over all and be perfect eventually and then Russell Nelson look at the talk and apologized but it was dispatched to the one before.

I specifically said don't worry about perfection, that's not in the slide as I think there's been some very uplifting messages that have been presented to the church in regards to perfection being more about this is something that will happen later Michael back to my question I asked you earlier about when they're all baptized LDS members are inheritors of the celestial kingdom was reversed. Some of the comments he spent those who inherit the celestial kingdom are said to be just men made perfect by sober men who were justified and then made perfect so my question would be what it you without process of perfection is not completed at what an insult when you're left with this when you think about that is your love for okay so there's this person on this continuum.

Now here's where they are here is perfection that they need to achieve to be a just person made perfect and say they they stop in the middle right and the rest of the profession is completed.

Just wanted your thoughts on that. Given some of the some recent conference addresses you the reference to know that this this completion of the perfection is something that happens later. My question would be why doesn't it happen for everyone on LDS teachings. First off I do believe that we could say we are perfect in Christ.

Right now the moment that you take his name on your clothing's growth righteousness is not your righteousness is perfected in Christ being perfect.

Eventually, I believe it's in doctrine and covenants were talks about being brighter and brighter until the perfect day. We can see Christ as he is sort of thing. And to me that's discipleship were becoming more more like him and almost everything about the second part of the video. I agree with in terms discipleship, not salvation.

And to me that's worth talking about being perfect. Eventually that's the part that were focusing on is becoming a better follower Christian and you know, getting rid of all of our sense and striving for progression are passive discipleship yeah I would say anyone that's a believer in Christ while in LDS theology. It's been baptized, have the roof righteousness of Christ.

Their names is news perfect in Christ.

So, your view will there be in the baptized Latter Day Saints and the terrestrial kingdom or will not only be those who are not of yes men do not accept obvious baptism by proxy. That's an interesting point.

I know there are determined, Jack Mormon, where you know they get a girlfriend or something. Are there is a girl that thought that the missionaries were hot all whole number reasons that people get baptized in ultimately that's the checkmark boxes.

Yes, you ventured to discover that you have his growth righteousness upon you. But most Christians would say that you know it it's can be a change of heart. Right as I think even with the baptism Christ, who was a David where the Lord side.

He looks upon this tax.

I am looking upon the heart, and I think that goes hand-in-hand with the covenant. If your baptized but your heart was evil. The reason you get. It had nothing to do with God. You can't hide that from God.

He knows all know if you were baptized for the wrong reasons, and going active you come back to the faith. 10 years later and at that point, your heart now is in the right place to go together and now you rebaptize unless you left the church, your good.

I think probably the majority got out, I would have a problem saying there are good effects rates that change of heart. Jesus substance work that Jesus does not the person to be a combo ideal testaments filled with lots and lots of references about Israel being wicked, they� They do not they bend up.

My hand stretched out all the day long so much like may not like Peter Stiller in the fact that were rethinking where were doing wickedly whatever it might be in his hands reached out and grabbed it is like ancient Israel. We have to accept that we have to reach out his hand is the one that's reaching out to us as though there's a passage in Ezekiel chapter 36 that you know, talks about God's promise of the new heart exists is part of the prophecy of the new covenant that would come and says I will give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 3626 so I think that the work of regeneration, which is that giving of a new heart regeneration theological word for that� Holy work of God is not something that we can effectuate that's that's where I think that there's this kind of sum as Michael was pointing out there is some interesting almost disagreements going on between Taylor and Tyler in the video Taylor this kind of teaching this almost more Christian view of no your made perfect in Christ and as a believer and you don't have to make yourself perfect. I will eventually come to you, but all also ultimately through Christ, not through your own labors and efforts and you have time to kind of come on the scene and and she presents a view that assists an upward spiral. So I wanted before category Matthew to his thoughts on this to share really quickly what John MacArthur says about Matthew 548 usually perfect. She says in his Bible commentary Christ sets an unattainable standard which sums up what the law itself demands.

If you look at James 210 right if you feeling any part of the law, you are guilty of the whole right is what James says there though this standard is impossible to meet God could not lower it without compromising his own perfection. She who is perfect could not set an imperfect standard of righteousness.

The marvelous truth of the gospel is that Christ has met this standard on our behalf. Any thoughts on talk about yeah mom have quite a lot so I will going all of them but I was reading so I have a commentary.

The doctrinal commentary in the book of Mormon. It's only commentary in the book when I have. It's by Joseph Fielding McConkey Robert Millet and went top as written. Looking at what their view was of this passage to see if it kinda lined up with this video so verse error on 40 says I would that you should be perfect its first 48 right of third Nephi 12.

So, in his commentary he says this is a staggering a sobering and for some a stifling commandment. It must be viewed in perspective.

No person, not the mightiest apostle or the greatest profit, save Jesus only has ever navigated the roads of mortal life without sin. No one but the Savior has done so in the past and no mortal shall accomplish that task in the future. How then do we proceed. We are never justified is the quote we are never justified in lowering the lofty standard held out to followers of the Christ, nor our nor our hate when they do this, nor are our actions or attitudes approved of God. If we suggest that the Savior did not mean what he said he called us to the transcendent level of perfection.

Our task is not to water down the ideal, nor to dilute the directive rather, we must view our challenge with perspective. Must see things as they really are, but also as they really can be." That's Robert L. Millet, by grace are received. Page 89 and then he goes on the going to explain some have attained perfection in the sense that they did all that was commanded them in the sense that they gave themselves wholly to the accomplishment of the will of the Lord specific persons like Noah Cham Hammett, Japheth, and Job are named in Scripture as those who became perfect in their generation present community explained that quote we all occupied diversified stations in the world and in the kingdom of God. Those who do right, and seek the glory of the father in heaven, whether they can do little or much. If they do the very best they know how they are perfect, be perfect as you can for that is all we can do to be as perfect as we possibly can. According to our knowledge is to be just as perfect as our father in heaven is he cannot be any more perfect than he knows how any more than we when we are doing as well as we know in the sphere and station which we occupy.

Here we are justified."

That's from Desert newsweekly 31st of August 1854 so they point out that we are commanded to be perfect so not to be and I think is in contrast to what they're saying the video because of any other say were not asked to call the perfect racks were called to be loyal, be faithful to this covenant past, but they're admitting here and that's kind would have been taught is in the past that the LDS leaders taught that know the commandment is to be morally perfect, but at the same time. Brigham Young goes to say well it's also depend on your knowledge and your sphere and your capacities things like that. So the purpose the standard of perfection is also kind of changing economy. So it's like they say Jesus called us to be actually perfect, but you know, at the same time perfect is different depending on who you are. So I think that's kind of a little bit in it of inconsistency. There is no more talking about from this video. They're saying, at least in the first part like the worst must be loyal so be faithful. That's perfection.

So as long as were doing more staying on the path you know are staying on the tracks were perfect so I see Kevin inconsistency there, especially when you look at just the text of the Scripture from Matthew five is good and can bring up. I mean, so the it's from the Greek word to to Leroy's to Laos.

Sorry. And so the definitions having reached its end, being complete or perfect, you know. So basically all translations say.

Be there for perfect or be perfect or you shall be perfect something like that. It does, it can connote also being complete, fully grown or fully matured, things like that and so one thing I that I bring up with LDS is I say okay it's we agree it's important to follow the commandments we love Christ we should follow the commitments right were on that same page.

Jesus is commanding you to be perfect. How do you, as latter-day St. how are you fulfilling that command and asked several latter-day Saints. That and I didn't get a straight answer. They kind of pushed back on me and settled I will going to that, but they can push back on me in my position I said no, no, no, I'm not saying that I myself am working to be perfect.

I am perfect because I am justified through faith in Christ by the grace of God in the perfect righteousness of Jesus his entire life that positive righteousness has been credited to me like David like you're talking about, like having having the robes of righteousness placed on you. When God sees me God sees every true believer. He sees the perfect righteousness of Jesus. And that's the only way we can keep the commandment it's that's what appeared, righteousness is is not about it's not about staying on the path or continuing to do what you're there, continue to tries hard, you can keep all the commandments.

It's having a perfect righteousness of Jesus applied to us because if we try to do it on our own. Like Paul said, you gotta keep all the law. If you want to be perfect, you gotta do all of it, but that's obviously impossible. So there are the really only way to be saved is to have Jesus righteousness credited to us and when we look at Romans five chapter of Romans chapter 5 verse one Paul says therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. So, since we have been justified justified being a past reality, something that happened through faith we now have a continuing peace with God is a amended relationship were you when were united to Christ. That enmity between God and man it's gone were completely united to Christ, his righteousness, and we have the spirit of God in us, so there's unity with the believer in Jesus and so and and yeah I agree that the discipleship is important. We do need to strive to follow Jesus and follow his commands follow his example. But at the moment a belief everything that we need every every commandment that we should have kept that we broke everything simple that we did all that is forgiven and we are promised eternal life have peace with God that thinks that Matthew to say amen and if you think about it, talk a little bit about what the other distinction that they made between Matthew 548 and third Nephi 1148 1248 13 for which one is just that the difference being 12.

So the difference being that you in the version Jesus says therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect and in third Nephi's representative saying you therefore perfect, even as I were you and your father in heaven is perfect right is adding himself into the equation and the third Nephi version and the Taylor stars on this video talk about perfectionism and that's not necessary and we don't interview ourselves.

That way we don't have to try to be perfect and yet when they can undercut all of that when they talk about their Nephi 1248 and and known and can make the point that Jesus wasn't fully perfect until you've been completely obedient to the commands that God had given him to give his life on behalf of humanity and that once you done that man. He was perfect and he could say can make a claim of himself that be there for perfect, even as I and since it's almost like they undercut SACC Jesus had to be perfectly obedient to what the father had given him. And so the menu when you think about what they're saying about these commands that come from latter-day prophets that change the stipulations for what we need to do to show our loyalty and then you're back at the place where LDS theology has classically been witches. You need to be perfect perfectly obedient to the specific commands given to you by God's representatives in order to ultimately become perfect so David your system on that before going yet so there's this I growing up. Yes me and Michael were probably similar where you have struggled, whatever it may be an constantly finding ourselves less then perfect and maybe beating ourselves up a bit. I found a lot of sympathy growing up with Nephi. Here's Nephi*of the book Mormon.

You know Donny said being led or shocking his brothers through the power of God and meet some crazy miracle seeing angels and second Nephi for I call this the would wake up the Psalm of Nephi is Nikes just like beating himself up when I can when I desire to do good.

I only compassed about because the tastings and this is that you so easily beset me a wretched man that I am 75 417 going on about. You know how unworthy he is which I think is something that no matter where you are in the gospel is LDS. You can always find something that you can whatever the sin is or whatever the lacking is you know we we think of gratitude or your family will be near. We do� Whatever it might be were right there with Nephi wretched man that we are but I love what he says in verse 19.

Then he kinda goes on and says again to see and based.

So no, I turned it verse 19 he says 75 419 and when I desire to rejoice. My heart grows because my sense, nevertheless I know in whom I have trusted and that the talks about how he trusted in Jesus verse 30 oh my heart trying to learn Seo.

Lord, I will praise you forever.

31 anyways.

But it's kind of that that thing you know I and were following this path. What I would want to call just the path of discipleship.

We are going to fall short. We are going to fall where inmate statesmanship along the way. But we can look back and say I know in whom I have trusted and we should go to have complete trust in the state. His atonement thanks to thoughts on that from you.

Michael and Matthew before we go on to talk about Tyler's input in the video and so the bulk of the video is teaching presented by Tyler Griffin. He focuses on the Beatitudes as an a step process `leads to perfection.

Even draws them out as stair steps on the whiteboard. Step one. He says you must be poor in spirit. By recognizing the gap between you and perfection. Step two. He says you must mourn by recognizing that you are not who you are who you need to be step three you must be meek by being willing to submit to all things. The father shall inflict upon you step for you must hunger and thirst by being driven to actively pursue God's will. Step five. You must be merciful to others and yourself to continue to progress on the covenant path. Step six. You must be pure in heart by having pure intentions and progressing along the covenant path. Step seven. Must be peacemakers by spreading the goodness and blight and revelations that you found along that covenant path with others and step eight. She says you will be persecuted when you follow the covenant path. So would you just think about the way Tyler taught the Beatitudes in the video so I thought that a lot of the steps were redundant. They were kind of the same thing said a couple of times. I didn't understand what he was saying that they were different stamps. For instance, select steps one and two I thought were what I would classify as being same thing must be poor in spirit recognizing the gap between you and perfection in step two. You must mourn by recognizing you are not you need to be to me sounds like it's it's pretty much the same thing and being meek submitting to the father and after that hungry and thirsting after righteousness is just selling a sanctification process. I think trying to say that all of these stamps are what you can do in order to reach perfection doesn't make a lot of sense.

Especially because your silly things may happen before others you know. Step eight is being persecuted and what about people who were not even members of the church who are persecuted, you know, David and I have ancestors who were French Calvinists and they were massacred. So does that mean that they were perfect. You know, according to this video, it sounds like they were even though Mormonism disagrees very heavily with Calvinism and so it doesn't really work. I think, but I'm curious.

Any thoughts first. David's argument so I can mention my thoughts on this a little bit already, but I do agree with you Michael that it in the terms of the sermon on the Mount. These things are not necessarily like it was interesting to think of this as being tied into repentance and he did mention that this is kind of a continual cycle so you know you might get to persecution and peacemaker on on one subject, you know, like maybe you're the peacemaker with this family history or something, you get those old people that always seem to be able to talk but you know we are driving in the car there picking up their quality can't figure how to answer the they start thinking bad words, you know there's different levels.

Yeah member is ill with that David Buss will click yes and then I have to head out. The second is why when you think you guys offer for letting me be here but God had Michael throw into the basket forces on the yeah we appreciate the appreciated about a kind of an interesting thing. Being a real live Latter Day Saints to discuss this because you know we we can talk about stock in time, but there's just a little bit more weight. We have a meal practicing faithful latter-day St. to talk about it with sometimes it's kind of a Mrs. so many times that will later be Texan house not a one-time event that you know it's a circle back around and it's like this, you know, circular staircase going up into heaven, and will talk about that more here a minute. It's funny because I talked to David like every day on the way to work and I'll say this. David is amazing really a selfless guy in a lot of ways you know I always think of them as being a good person but I think you every single day. What were driving here. Just send me the first of our driver you dislike seem to be getting spirals condensed into one. I think there's hope for those with road rage, but there's no hope for those of us who are old so I think you're okay. Sorry about that now. Not as old as I thought you were 60 would phone earlier doesn't look as old as he actually is. UH will all right you head on. Thank you so much guys do anything save nine get some not just destroying David under the basket.

I've got issues to and and they are calling bold yeah you just being kind of rodent and not very sympathetic. You know, things like that. I only have a season and they're not improving the rate that this this video would imply that you should be improving. You not mean it really gives the impression I think that you should be able to see this difference and almost calculate your ETA on when you're going to reach perfection because the changes can be so obvious and I think that just ties right back into this toxic perfectionism.

Just delaying it does not really fix the problem. We can talk about that later if you want to do more what Tyler says Matthew Saucier click on on the step process.

But you know what I was saying is referred people like like Laura Lynn say is Jesus. Jesus friend of ours who witnesses to Latter Day Saints and no hurt her take on the messaging that Latter Day Saints receivers is that you know what what they give with one hand. What Taylor gives with one hand and the beginning of this video by decrying perfectionism.

Tyler takes away wholeheartedly with the other hand the end of this video, so maybe what are your thoughts on this a step process that Tyler presents East we started off the video by saying he when they talked about these Beatitudes.

He kind of pay attention. I lost focus or something. When he was in seminary, and he said it's because he thought that there was one group over here was poor in spirit, and there is one group over here that Morand is under over here that are meek and so I agree with him that that that his conception of what the Beatitudes are was rescued and he admits is also an but I don't agree with his his step of taking it.

While this is now a ladder. Jesus think. Step one is a step two is that because you could kind of interchange. All of them. You know like it. It doesn't really necessarily follow the step one automatically is the step two.

It's like you could move step one to step five.

Step four to step seven or whatever and it would be kind of the same thing is collect the same problem with Star Wars episode one where Yoda says fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. You could also say that suffering leads to fear.

Fear leads to hate and what's the other one but you don't seem like the kind of interchangeable so it's like to say that this is a step-by-step process that Jesus gave generally follow for me that you're going to say that each of the Star Wars episodes are interchangeable, interchangeable, but I know that's not in the position so no, no, definitely not. Definitely not written were just not to talk about anything after episode six basically nothing happen after six metal. You are now and I called Amanda Loring forgot about that because I can work out. I'm still disappointed to find out the yeah so you have to ramp to set you straight there. Michael situated in the entire Star Wars timeline and add testing on the next time you were swayed by my suggestion is that you reincarnate as they are both at the Jedi Temple the same time as barring 41 years before the battle of Gavin, and asked me how I know that I just know that their main there is came on was like an old man went straight to us just as Mike is razzing me about that but no, he's I know I just legitimately thought you were old St. Paul wrote the New Testament.

I'm not as something no I am not priceless.

Let's listing the next clip for what what Tyler says we pull that up for us.

Nobody wants to be persecuted. You'll notice in a fallen world. When you when you're doing this kind of thing, it will draw attention, you will find persecution clearly. Sometimes the persecution comes from loved ones who are closest to. Sometimes it comes from people who should treat you better and ironically at a deeper level. Sometimes the persecution comes once again from that person in the mirror who who expects perfectionism not process that leads to perfection.

You'll notice a steps we went from where we are to wear which were almost there. You just do this once in your good right there's this little factor right here this this greater gap sisters. This is not a one time event discipleship. The covenant path not an event.

It's a long grueling at times, beautiful and marvelous and and wonderful and at other times extremely difficult and hard and lonely process and there are some who were on the covenant path pressing forward going through dark periods of testing and trials who feel like they can go on. It's too hard. There's too much being asked and it's it's it's too heavy brothers and sisters. We all have people in our lives who are in those kinds of struggles right now part of our role was to be a peacemaker to not to not condemn them or judge them for their struggles. Whether there trials of faith, whatever they may be to love and to encourage them to support and to be with them until God sees fit in his timing to to shine the light once again into their life and to illuminate their path forward as they continually struggle forward.

Are you guys you think about that portion of the video there really hard time with that portion of the video link yeah you know we said the covenant is all about being loyal to God and not perfection.

And then this is the partner site will actually it's all about perfectionism, not today, maybe not tomorrow but Thursday you know kind of thing like in the very near future. We need to be kinda catching getting close to an testing this idea will come pass a lot with with the online and in the savings it was long as I'm on the on the past you know I'm I'm good, not perfect right now I'm on the path. The problem with the past is that it leads to two places and if you're facing the wrong way you know and people are going to be struggles in. I would assume that that means that they are going down the staircase and not out and so I think they have to make that background back up and so you're not really going anywhere. If that's the case if you're stagnant for a while.

If you are backtracking, then those games that you are actually making our loss costs, and so it does look like a long grueling process and instantly not something that is easy, but certainly not when Jesus describes take my yoke upon you, my burden is light.

You know that is completely different message.

Jesus actually says that it's easy what he saying is that it is a long, hard, lonely process is completely on: yeah so I Wanted to mention something that that Michael said before I'm not disagreeing with them, but I wanted to canopy for my two cents in their when we're talking about how committees you, Paul. But however saying like they can seem like they said okay here's your departure point, your destination should be able to track okay I'll think about this long to get there. To this point.

Perfection know it may not get to it in this life that'll get to in the next but at the same time. I think that it's not totally wrong to also look at our lives and to see in the past how God has worked in our life and how on this path of discipleship. We have grown more in the Lord. We have we have become more mortified. Illness is to our sin. If you read the epistle first John, he talks about loving God. Those who love God are known by God because we were loved by him. First, things like that any kind of any finishes that this by saying that you main uses the things I've written to you who believe in the name of the son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life is the confidence which we have before him that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us and if we know that he hears hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from him and I think he kind of ease counterpoint to the rest of the epistle, pointing to these evidences, you know, if you do you love your neighbor.

Do you love God do you confess that Jesus is risen from the dead. These kind of things these evidences, we can point to and say this is how God has worked in my life and we see we still see throughout Scripture. All the commandments you know to to follow Jesus to to to endure the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder perfective perfecter of our faith. That's Hebrews chapter 12 we also see we need to make our calling and election sure we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, so there's there's all these injunctions to save believers to continue the race to endure to stay faithful and the temptation to turn away from the faith would've been very strong.

Back then, full believer that whoever whomever Christ saves you will keep them in the faith. He's a author perfecter the finisher of our faith, but one of the ways that God means that God uses to keep us you noted to keep us on the path is these Commandments is the word of God is the means of grace and so yeah so I'm not I'm not against a lot of what he said here. Had I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying in terms of repentance, turning away from sin and toward Christ, and we should be willing to make peace with others you know to turn away from us and I agree with a lot of the I do agree that with you guys that there's no.

I don't know.

There's no hope there's no hope in that message, you know, there's no guarantee there's nothing that says Christ has finished the work for you on your behalf because of that through your faith. You can be perfected in him now.

There's no hope for that, in the hope is like okay if you stay on the path and you're sure that you keep working hard and don't stop, you know, if you keep working. There is a is a good chance you'll be you'll make it but how do I know, five, 10 years from now I'm not to fall off that path. You know that there's no guarantee risk interest as of the spirit is is the pledge is collected, God gives us a spirit is like okay here's your down payment. Here's promise that you know that you will be with me that you will do who are saved, but I don't think you have as latter-day St.

You can you can have everything you need to achieve celestial kingdom. But if you eventually turn away and unite turn away from the faith your ejector covenants and things like that you you don't have that promise anymore.

You know you have to stay on the path so I just I don't know it. It doesn't give a lot of comfort to know that it's kind of like, it's like. On one hand, they say it's all it's all about Christ in their hands.

Like, but it's really up to us at the same time you know it's up to us down the path so it's just it's just it reminds me of my days as latter-day St. I really struggled with that because it doesn't and it's difficult for me to reconcile those two teachings that they that they give over the pulpit. Michael on the jump, and there is moderate if he was referring to something you said so you negatively, but thanks thanks yeah tell you St. Matthew so I wouldn't have a single problem with what he said about that whole analogy about how this is a repeating process, but I have an issue with is that this is talking about a sanctification process he's talking about to become perfect. In other words, to actually be acceptable in God's eyes we have to keep doing this in the toxic perfectionism that I've seen it because in Latter Day Saints and some of the discussion boards and I've been in, there's one guy in particular that I donated a few times read like a lie just to be better today than I was yesterday and that becomes not every day that passes, that becomes a more difficult thing to do if you're talking about a day by day sort of thing.

And what I've seen Latter Day Saints take that kind of perspective, it's not something that I really don't see a lot of hope in that but yet I do agree with him as United. As far as a young sanctification standpoint.

Yes, he should be striving to to see sin and to be godly people and to look back and see what God has done in our lives by yeah and I just have a problem with that being our memes earning in meriting salvation is all I meant by it. When I was saying how I was.

I wasn't trying to correct your something I think I was trying to clarify yeah I agree with you that there's there's really is no distinction lease none of the rest of the deposition of David shared with us.

I don't think is a standard LDS view. I don't think so either. And so they don't have this conception of being externally declared righteous being credit of Christ's righteousness and sanctification. To me it was kind of altogether. You know, as Irving sanctified your reaching towards perfection and perfection is the goal, and that's what you need me going towards and I don't think you can really say okay you know God has put a stamp on you he's he's sealed you to be his, you're guaranteed eternal life.

I don't think a latter-day St. can say that you know if you follow their traditional teachings. Maybe it's changing out a notebook yeah system from a lot of discussions and David and I have had, but even with his position. Even with believing that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us at some point it sounds like you, we can reject that gift later on and to be unimpeded. We can be unadopted like there's still the LES ordinances are going to have to play a role. If you're a believing letter saying you can't you can't take that out of the equation. Has it in there somewhere, but one thing I wanted to add really quick onto that is how I wanted to get David's review but also some of the conversations going along with them. You guys asked really good questions to him earlier.

I was going to ask him because when he said that he believe that you know that Jesus is righteousness is like a road that you put on when you're baptized and I thought okay well, didn't Jesus keep all the commandments of God. So if you're given Jesus perfect righteousness wind that also include the righteousness that's required in the temple ordinances absolutely yeah that is the correct question from Mayor is certainly hard to see how how this that this kind of the bulk of this video from Tyler is good news is you are saying that there's really no hope in it right really emphasizes that this is not an event. He equates the covenant path of discipleship and an end in sight kind of agrees with that I don't agree with that conflation of the covenant. This covenant path with discipleship because when you pointed out, Michael.

Is that what is describing is a path to perfection right to be to be seen as worthy to be seen as ready for God's kingdom right. No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God according to the doctrine and covenants and so you can be none can be unclean in any way and Tyler's describing the path and make sure that you're not going to be unclean and it's it's a long and lonely process that I'd I totally agree with you, Matthew, one of the best sermons I've heard by buyer pastor a church when it was about the fact that you know many people here that the message of grace and salvation by grace and I think all that's awesome. It's wonderful. It's so life-giving and they think that the Christian life is going to be an easy life and is not because you do given the discipleship in the syndication process and that's a tough process right, but when you're going through the sanctification process you had the event you justified. You had Christ's righteousness applied to you and you are promised and guaranteed eternal life right and so you know we we talk about being born again human newborn again your babe and you can do anything to bring about a helpless right in us. There's there's meaning in that metaphor of being born again so you do agree with some of what Tyler said here yes but ultimately what he's presenting what he's shoehorning in here is the LDS view which does require perfectionism.

Yeah that's great yeah I was. I agree with you totally. It's like I could agree with portions of it, but it's in a completely different context, so that context really shapes and forms the entire conversation, you know, it's like if you hear one person talking on a phone and hear them saying some things I make sense. You know, and I agree no such and such later he's a good guy and then hear the other, but if you're here the other side of the conversation and they're talking about some other complete different person you know you like I'll never mind that's you know I don't agrees that the same thing. It's like I can agree with some parts of but it's like it's just tweaks so slightly ever so slightly to make it a different gospel that it really comes home with you when you time in the fact that they set this up with with this idea of Jesus kind of reconfiguring the requirements in the sermon on the mall and then throwing in there is Latter Day Saints. They say we have modern-day profits to do a similar thing right sister to surrender one of the requirements going to stop being stumbled upon the shoulders of Latter Day Saints and you know when it is interesting to know when Tyler's describing the way that people feel there's a reason they feel that way is because the LDS gospel is the good news, so I was left with was this last final clip from the video and comment on it and will close for the night you pull it up now. For this, what was the promised blessing for those who are persecuted for his namesake. This is for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, that's interesting. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven that rings a bell. You've heard that before. Look back at verse three Blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I wonder I wonder if it's possible that Christ connected this first in this eighth step outcome in such a way to say this isn't a one-time event. This is actually a very long repeating process.

You do it again and again and again. Just when you get here persecution makes you aware of other gaps that you have other things that need to be worked on that you can then feel bad about appropriately turning to the Lord to be comforted.

Turning to his will, seeking to find and know his will, being willing to forgive you and others who are struggling with. These things are working on for the right reasons. Spreading the piece that you found and the process goes on and on and on your time bringing us back to something we talked about clear back in second Nephi 31 discipleship really is going in circles. A lot of people grow weary in the church feeling like they're just going in circles doing the same things over and over and over again. They are but they should be doing them at different levels as they progress. It's a plan of progression on the covenant path � it's a plan of progression on the covenant path, leaving mother is looking at the picture staircase thinking man.

What happens if you fall from that top stair baby going to hurt me and it already painful enough climbing all the way out there just seems like it's too much risk and not enough reward that I almost feel like saying you know like Hollywood screenwriter couldn't come up with this like babies and show them that the image of the endless staircase and is so classic right and talks talked earlier about how hard it is and you know the Christian life and and sanctification discipleship.

This is not easy, but where's the hope in this message data really is like hey, this is no Jesus did it. So you've got to do it to Vienna to return now you know what this does on this never-ending staircase and what I hear from Latter Day Saints, as they say well we'll have to finish in this life that's kind of that's that's kind like the one hope that they have is like well you know I scheduled a second now and I'll have eternity to work that out but that was on the purgatory rate. The Roman Catholic view purgatory were you gonna purge all the sins for decades, centuries thousand years, who knows how long. I don't to be, you know, repenting of every last a little bit of sin that I've got that I probably committed when I was two years old, I mean like working out my salvation in the sense of like achieving perfection by my work seen on any like I'll never get there I got a hopeless cause. It also. I really struggled my going thousand.

Aside from that meeting, not really think Matthew right on the head.

You see people as you have everything set on the 20 like well in the I will be perfect and usually ask him what was it is easier to repent. In the next life, or is it harder, they always say it's harder in the next life so that I say what what what hope do you have of accomplishing it there if it's harder, you can't do this life. To me it just sounds like a really hopeless proposition and I is so freeing not to have to hold onto that anymore.

I mean I was unit is pretty bad place when you is Latter Day Saints. Realize you make it in this life and enslavement. Even with however many years. I think I still have whether it's 30 or 40 years, you know, based on how well I'm doing. I'm can make it before I die is just its own weight that you nobody's have to carrion and I really pray that the LDS people will come to understand the gospel and have that weight lifted off of them. Someday I'm glad we got to have David on his thoughts and then let him interact with us on these topics. I know I want us to do this show in response to this video because my sister sent to me what my sister to know that I love her I want her to know the joy and the peace and the gist of the ultimate knowledge that comes with knowing Christ as Savior and knowing him in a relationship that is saving gives you that that peace and joy. No matter the kind of alluded to in your comments just now to Philippians 212.

However, he got out and I want to include verse 13 because a lot of times Latter Day Saints full will throw Philippians 212 out there. You know like daddy got to work out your salvation with fear and trembling fear and trembling because you might not make it know because use of the passage I want. I will read out with that passage actually says so. Paul here so so then my beloved, just as you have always obeyed Madison my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, in verse 13 says, for it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. I love that passage, and when I first saw that passage in totality with verse 13 included an realize what Paul is actually saying there that the fear and trembling, comes not from a fear of not being able to perfect oneself, but rather from the knowledge that it is it is God who is working in you and Matt should that should induce righteous fear and trembling to realize that we are temples of the Holy Spirit and what that actually means the peace that that brings knowledge that the event of Jesus on the cross, taking upon himself our sins and paying that debt and now we are clothed in his robes of righteousness, that event has taken place that's use that's knowledge that's that is the gospel and that is something that is absent from this video yells. Gonna point out to you that I read Romans 51 earlier but I did. If you go on and read and continue on and thank you Paul as beautiful. Thank you is wanted to mention quickly that so I read the first one which is, therefore, since we have been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And so, knowing that they are redeemed that they are accepted there justified.

They say that they continue on verse three Paul says not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit has been given to us so we don't see we don't see trials is like okay part of this process to make is perfect. Hopefully eventually reaches goal.

We rejoice in sufferings, knowing that we really receive sufferings, because we have been accepted of God. We are children of God not sit so that it's just, you know, part of a stepping stone to get to a better place. It's like yes we should we struggle in oh it's a struggle but same time we have. Hope we we know Christ is our Savior and I met.

I felt like one is Latter Day Saints that one is trying to reach God I was only struggling against my sin and the sin of the world, but I was struggling against God. You know I felt like I was trying to prove myself to him and I didn't have anybody on my side, but we know that we have a perfect mediator, a perfect Savior and Christ as John Second One As Well. Verse Three Verse Six Siam Verse Nine the True Light Which Gives Light to Everyone Was Coming into the World. He Was in the World and the World Was Made through Him, yet the World Did Not Know Him. He Came to His Own and His Own People Did Not Receive Him, but to All Who Did Receive Him, Who Believed in His Name, He Gave the Right to Become Children of God Were Born, Not of Blood nor of the Will of the Flesh, nor of the Will of Man, but of God. And I Do See A Lot Here Using What What Was Said in That Video There.

First of All, That When We Believe in His Name We Have the Right to Be the Children of God. It Is, It Is so Simple, It Just Happens Right There Believing in His Name on It Is Not through the Will Will of the Flash the Will of Man Is Not Striving in and in Working to Achieve Something Were to Merit It Is the Will of God and What Really Strikes Me about This Verse Is Is Just That We We We Are Members of His Family and None of Us to Have Children.

Just Because That Child Backs Lines in Some Way Where I Can Say You're Not Part of the Family. Now You Know That That Child Remains a Member Family. Even If They Are Going through Something and Trying to Become Better People Are Struggling with Something, You Know It's I See That with with the Gospel with God How God Actually Deals with Us As He Doesn't Take His Righteousness Back. He Doesn't Adopt Us until We Get Our Act Together. We Are Assured That Salvation through Him and You Know He's Got This. He's Got Us in the Grip of Iron and He Doesn't Let Go and and to Me That's What the Good News Really Is. It's Not That There's This Giant Staircase That I Have To Go out Means That I Have a God Sovereign God Has Me in the Palm of His Hand. And so What Is There to Fear. Matthew, Thanks for Reducing Romans Five Comes Beautiful As Well.

I'm Reminded Michael on That Last Point You Ended on about Going to Have To Climb That Long Spiral Staircase. I'm Reminded of Jesus's Words That That She Will Lift Him up on the Last Day Right so Staircase to Climb When We Are in Christ, He Will Lift Us up Payment and It's Tough Guys into This and the Outer Ring Is Not to Hear from You.

Please Visit the Out Of Right Field Read to Send Us a Message That Send a Message of the Pain Appreciated July We Also Have an Out Of Right Is Also Sin Is Right to the Other Brightness Podcast on This Cast Box Cast the Modify Stitch. Also You Can Check out YouTube Channel. If You like It Shortly Grade Can Also Connect with Michael Just One Lungs and Sometimes Poland Will Music for the Other Brightness Podcast Is Graciously Provided by the Talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn More about Adams Road. By Visiting Their Ministry Page. It Adams Road Ministry.com State Right Fireflies to Show Go a and and We He and a Will and in