What if Mormonism Isn't True, Pt. 1

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You're listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. Outer Brightness. Outer Brightness. Outer Brightness. Outer Brightness.

There's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here, except when Michael's hangry, that is. Welcome to the first episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We're three guys who were previously members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. More commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Some might consider us sons of perdition, the inheritors of outer darkness, who supposedly knew the truth and rejected it. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects the Gospel of John chapter one in the Bible.

Specifically verse nine, which calls Jesus the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be. And the light we have is not our own. It comes to us from without.

Thus, Outer Brightness. Making the transition from Mormonism to broader Christianity can be exciting, scary, confusing, challenging, invigorating, and ultimately life-giving. Our aim here is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in our lives in drawing us to His Son. We'll have conversations about all aspects of that transition. The fears, the challenges, the new beliefs, surprises, and joys.

We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. The zeitgeist of the moment is the idea that we are living in a post-truth world. The idea that objective facts either cannot be known or are less important than personal truth or feelings. Sometimes people refer to my truth or your truth to suggest that there is no objective reality, but rather only what each of us perceives to be true. Within Mormonism, the idea of truth reigns supreme.

Mormons had it and wanted to share it with the rest of the world, while all others who were not Mormon had some portion of it, but not the fullness. I'm a Gen-Xer. I'm in that group of people who were in their teens and early 20s when the internet went live for the general public. I used to style up and slow downloads. When I first began discussing my religion online back in 1999, there was a lot of optimism about what this new medium could do for communication between people of different backgrounds.

Only a few doomsday prophets suggested that it could be detrimental to the very idea of objective truth. My fall down the rabbit hole began with an attempt to be a missionary for my faith. I had been a full-time Mormon missionary in Hungary for two years from 1997 to 1999.

When I returned to the U.S., I moved to greater Cincinnati area, married and began working for an insurance company. I tried to share my Mormon beliefs with one of the security guards in the building where I worked. She was a kind, older African-American lady named Charlotte. We would talk and discuss religion for a few minutes each day. I gave her a copy of the Book of Mormon and sent her a pair of full-time missionaries to begin meeting with her.

It looked as if my missionary efforts were paying off. After several weeks of lessons, she handed me the copy of the Book of Mormon that I had given her and a packet of printed pages from various websites. She told me that she had spoken with her pastor and that he had told her that the Mormon religion was racist. I appealed to my own conduct with her. She asked me if I was aware that black people were not allowed to hold the LDS priesthood until 1978. I told her that I was aware of that. She asked if I was aware of any of the other things about my church that were represented in the materials that she had handed me.

I told her that I would have to look into them, but that anyone can post anything on the internet, and that doesn't make it true. In this episode, I and the other Sons of Light discuss what it's like to stare down that scary question, What if Mormonism isn't true? I'm Paul Bunyan, he's Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist, and he's Michael the Ex-Mormon Apologist. Let's get into it.

All right. So in the intro, I outed myself as a Gen-Xer. Michael, which cohort group do you fall into? Well, it's funny that you ask because, you know, I guess technically I'm a millennial, but I didn't know that until a couple months ago. So it's like I spent all this time making fun of millennials and then look what happens. I don't really self-identify as a millennial, but that's kind of a millennial thing to do, I guess.

So, yeah, I guess that's where I fall. Wait, so not self-identifying as a millennial is a millennial thing to do, or identifying as a millennial is a millennial thing to do? I think just self-identifying as something that you're not is a millennial thing to do. Oh, OK. But, no, I think of myself as like a Generation-Xer, even though I guess I'm not one. All right.

What about you, Matthew? Yeah, I'm a millennial. I mean, unless if they've changed the decades or something, they keep shifting those years. But, yeah, I'm a millennial as well. OK, cool, cool. So we got a Gen-Xer and two millennials, even though one didn't know he was and wants to pretend to be the Gen-Xer, which is a millennial thing to do. Yeah.

OK, got it. He was a millennial before he knew he was a millennial. That's pretty hipster right there. Before it was cool to be a millennial. Just like he was a Christian before he knew he was a Christian, right? Yep.

All right. So next question. Do you think that one's status as a member of a particular social cohort might affect the way that one reacts when deconstructing Mormonism?

I think absolutely. You know, just the way that different generations view the Mormon church is so different. Like, I remember being active and hearing baby boomers say things like, oh, you can't wash dishes on Sunday. And I'd be like, wait, what?

Like, where did that come from? And I feel like every generation it's a different Mormonism that you're dealing with. And for me, you know, growing up, truth was pretty static. And so I felt like if somebody challenged me really hard on just one issue, it would be enough. If they challenged me hard enough and it was a core belief, they could actually make the whole thing crumble just from one point. But I feel like these days, a lot of Mormons have doctrinal walls made out of jello. And it's kind of like, you know, they pull truth from anywhere they want to and you can't approach it the same way.

You almost have to take down the whole thing at the same time. And it's a lot harder to deconstruct it now than it used to be. That's just how I feel about it. Like you said, I think it's not just a generational thing.

I think it's also. Well, of course, it's a cultural thing because we always make the distinction between, you know, quote unquote, Utah Mormons and Mormons from outside Utah. And, you know, I think I think you might both might agree that, well, you know, I think Michael, we're the only ones that were from Utah. Right. You weren't from you from Utah. Right, Paul? Actually, I am.

Yeah. Born and raised. I'm actually from Texas. I didn't really spend any time in Utah. Oh, man, I had him flipped.

Man, my memory. But Paul, so Paul, you probably had this experience between missionaries where they would say, oh, you're a Utah Mormon, you know, amongst all the other missionaries. And then they suddenly look at you differently. Yeah, of course. So there's there's that aspect, too. But yeah, I absolutely do think that there is a generational aspect to how you experience Mormonism. And I was just thinking when when Michael was talking that just the fact that we call it Mormonism and that we call ourselves ex Mormons and use the term Mormon is is a generational thing, because there's so many Latter Day Saints now that say we're not Mormons anymore. Stop using that word. Right.

Because that's what their prophet asked them to do. So just the fact that we even use that terminology is just a sign that that we are from a different time, I guess. Yeah, that's true. So as a millennial. Are there ways in which you think you processed your deconstruction of Mormonism differently than, say, someone from Gen X or someone who's a baby boomer?

I would say that I did. I think I was kind of coming from this place, you know, kind of being in the middle of two generations, almost where the doctrine was super important to me. But then there were social aspects of the church that were beginning to become important to me as well. And so it wasn't just finding out that there are parts of the doctrine that were wrong, but then kind of seeing things that the church did that were those hurting people. It really had an effect on me that I don't know if it would have done the same thing with an older generation. Sorry, you want me to go ahead?

Yeah, I had a similar experience to you, Michael. So even though you're technically a millennial, I don't think there's too many too many years difference between us. Right. So remind me how old you are. 35.

That's right. So, yeah, there's only six years between us. So we're fairly close in age.

And so it's not like a 20 year difference. And, you know, what you said about, you know, the doctrine being super important. You know, I remember, you know, when I was on my Mormon mission, people were still passing around, you know, Bruce R. McConkie's Seven Deadly Heresies talk. And, you know, that definitely the doctrine was such a focal point when I was, you know, growing up in my Utah wards and just doesn't seem the same now. And I think that's similar to you. I don't think I, you know, when I look at the social cohorts, I'm kind of like right on the edge of that right at the end of Gen X. And so I may kind of straddle that line as well.

But you're right. There was there were some social things going on with it in the LDS church and within broader society within the United States and around the world that, you know, between like the years 2000 and maybe like 2012 really shifted the way the church was was approaching some social issues. And you're right, did some things that hurt people. And yeah, that definitely was important to me as well and impacted the way I process things, I think. What about you, Matthew? Well, it's interesting because, you know, I've kind of not always been a Mormon. Well, I wasn't always a Mormon my whole life. So I was kind of rediscovering Mormonism for myself. And so I was kind of learning about it from books.

I was reading a lot of textbooks, you know, a lot of books from Broussard McConkie, from from Joseph F. Smith, from James Talmage. And so I was learning about these traditional doctrines. And I think there's the older generations probably really held to those doctrines, as Michael is explaining. They really kind of clung to those traditional Orthodox teachings. But as time has gone on, it's Mormonism has definitely evolved, especially after President Gordon B. Hinckley was the leader of the LDS church.

He's really grew that church to be an international, worldwide church. And with that, it's kind of morphed into something more socially palatable, I guess you could say, where, like you said, the traditional Orthodox Mormon doctrines are kind of hidden or they're de-emphasized in lieu of trying to appear more Christian. So with with this change, it seems like with the social changes, like you said, it seems like millennials are very open to acceptance. They're very open to new information. They're very interested in having knowledge or asking questions. And so and with the LDS church releasing all of these articles and information, that's all available to us now. And Latter-day Saints have to deal with that knowledge in some way. So millennials are really they're really thirsting, I think, for some kind of answers. But the way that they deal with information and come to their own conclusion is different for every one of us.

So I hope that answers your question. You know, there's something that you made me just kind of jump into my mind, Matthew, while you were talking. And that is just it seems like these days there's such a tendency for Latter-day Saints to just kind of be cafeteria Mormons and just kind of accept what they want to and throw out the things that they don't want to believe in. And it almost seems like however many members there are of the church right now, that's how many denominations there are.

Like each person holds to their own unique viewpoint. And it's just completely different from from before where, you know, it seems like when I was growing up, we were emphasizing that the church was true. And that's why it was so important to be a member of the church. And now it's shifted to, well, the church does good things. The church is a good social entity. And a lot of those things are being de-emphasized, like the great apostasy and, you know, what God supposedly told Joseph Smith about all the churches being an abomination in his sight. You don't hear that like you would have in the past.

Right. And I think what's been interesting to me in seeing some of the ways that millennial Mormons engaged online, because, you know, one thing that our listeners should know is that the three of us met online in various Facebook forums where we discuss Mormonism and Christianity and differences and basically work at evangelism to Mormons online. And one of the things that surprised me about some of the millennial Mormons is that although there's this there's been this social shift for them, that is very prominent in the way that they approach their Mormonism. There's still this like rabid clinging to the idea that it's true, right, that it is the one true church and they are a part of it and they are a chosen generation. And it's important for them to have that identity as Mormon and as part of the true religion that has been handed down from God. And so I thought that's interesting because, you know, they tend to have sort of a postmodern approach to truth in general. And yet among some, and I don't want to get into talking about any individuals, but I just think it's been it's been interesting to me to watch that that happen among certain individuals. And that I think that clinging, at least for me, I can definitely relate to it. As I went through my transition out of Mormonism, I redefined what Mormonism was for me in many ways. And yet there was still the desire to cling to this idea that it was true. So that's really what we're talking about today.

So that kind of brings us to the next question. What was your experience of reaching the realization that Mormonism wasn't true, Michael? For me, it was a couple of things, but I remember this one defining moment where, you know, they came out with the November policy saying that children of gay parents couldn't be baptized.

And I really had issue with that doctrinally because, you know, the article of faith said we believe men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. And it really for me, it was more of a in the realm of just, you know, mental thinking and abstract disagreement that I had with the church. But then I realized that people were committing suicide over the policy, that there had been several young Latter-day Saints that had taken their own lives. And that really hit home for me. I felt like I could see something that I hadn't been able to see before. And that was that the plan of happiness wasn't making anybody happy, that it was causing people to be miserable. And I just felt like I could see something and it was so obvious, but nobody else around me could see the problems with the church and the pain that it was causing. And so really, that's what opened my eyes. And from there, it just became more and more obvious that it wasn't God's church. Good. Matthew, what about you?

What was your experience like? So the moment that I realized that the church wasn't true. Well, it was after a long struggle with many of the different facets of church history and doctrine changing and all these different things. You know, I thought this was going to just be a faith crisis that I could overcome and I would be stronger in my testimony. But there is a point where I just kept diving into the teachings and the writings and I just was just finding answers, but they were opposite of what I was hoping for.

And I can remember where I was approximately on the campus when I just couldn't believe it anymore and I just felt like I had a mental breakdown. It's like everything that you thought you worked for and were fighting for and taught as a missionary for two years, it was a very disconcerting experience. It was really painful, but it was just the culmination of a lot of different things that I had read and thought about and tried to mull over. And to me, if this is God's church, it has to be logical. You know, God is not going to act in an illogical way.

And so when he teaches one thing to a previous prophet and contradicts it with a succeeding prophet, that just didn't make sense to me. So it was a really difficult time, but I think as far as the experience goes, it was an experience that I know that God had led me to. But it was difficult because who can you talk to about that? You feel like you're betraying your people, you're betraying your family with that experience. So it was a very lonely time as well.

Yeah, definitely. I can definitely resonate with that. So the weekend that Angela, my wife and I decided that we were going to stop attending the LDS church and and actually go outside and start looking around our area for other other churches we might attend. That weekend, you use the term mental breakdown. And I can totally get that because that's what it was like. I remember just going into our room and laying on the bed and just having all of this emotion kind of flow out of me. And, you know, one of our teenage daughters came in and laid down next to me and was kind of concerned and wondering what was going on. And, you know, it was it was difficult to try to explain to her what what that was like to have all of that pressure and kind of built up frustration of trying to believe and trying to force myself to believe, even though, like you, Matthew, I've done all of the study and deconstruction through LDS church history and, you know, Book of Mormon archaeology.

And Book of Abraham and all of that over more than a decade. That that final point of saying, OK, it's enough and we're going to we're going to do something else was still very, very difficult and very painful. So definitely feel you there.

Did you have something else you wanted to say, Michael? Yeah, I mean, I just I'm having sympathy opinions for you guys right now because it just reminds me of of how that felt. You know, it's just something completely, completely different.

You can't you can't explain it almost. I spent so much time just defending the church, you know, online and arguing in support of it. And then and then I found out that it wasn't true. And I would even within the last year from leaving, I'd wake up sometimes like having almost a panic attack, you know, wondering, you know, what's real, what isn't. You know, am I still a Mormon? Did I actually leave?

Like, did that really happen? And the closest thing I can compare that to, not that I've experienced it, but I think it's like recovering from a drug addiction. It's just, you know, you lose your your entire personality. Our identity, I mean, is tied up in in this church. And so when you leave, everything gets called into question. And I remember just having these crazy dreams after I left to like I had this one where I was giving a presentation in a Mormon ward and somebody asked me, you know, if the prophet could supersede scripture.

And I said that he couldn't. And we needed to test what he said by the scriptures and everybody stood up and they started calling me a heretic and basically drove me out. And it was it was really tough because, you know, I still view them like they're my family. But at the same time, I've just become an outcast. Yeah. The loss of relationships is tough for sure. Did you experience any of that, Matthew? Loss of relationships?

Yeah. Well, when I when I've come to that realization that I felt that the church wasn't true, you talk about your shelf collapsing, you put your shelf up and you put the items on the shelf that you don't quite understand. Well, that mental breakdown is when your shelf collapses. And after that, I kind of tried to pick up the pieces and try to put it back together and try to make sense of everything. And so I started kind of going back to church a few months after that to try to say, well, you know, maybe I can just, like you said, become a cafeteria Mormon.

Maybe I can just reject what I don't like and I can keep what I like. And part of that was because at the time I when I moved out to New York for graduate studies, I was engaged. So I was I was preparing for the wedding day in the summer of that year. And when I when I had my my my mental breakdown, my collapse, I just texted her. I sent my I sent my fiance a text message and I said, I'm sorry, I just can't do this anymore.

And that was about all I could that's about all I could type out because I was just so distraught. And then I turned my phone off for the next few days, I think, and just kind of went to my own little little corner. And so after that, I turned my phone back on and found out that, you know, the engagement was off and and that wasn't going to work out.

And and but, you know, I'm very thankful that that didn't work out because it would have been much more difficult if if we had gone through with the marriage and tried to leave later. But as far as other friendships, you know, I started attending the ward out here in New York. And so I didn't I didn't really have any other friends or I don't have any family here. So they were my only support network that I had really was my my ward. And as you both know, the LDS church is great at getting people integrated and feeling loved and needed.

And so I was feeling very I felt a lot of communion, a lot of fellowship with the people here. So when I stopped, you know, when I finally came to the realization that I just don't want to attend the church anymore, you feel very cut off and you lose those friendships and those connections. And, you know, I lost out on on the marriage. So but I'm very grateful that my family has been relatively understanding. So I still have my family relationships to an extent.

Some of them are might be a little bit strained, but but but yeah. So, I mean, I think everybody has those those relationships or friendships that they that they that they fear they're going to lose when they when they come to a knowledge that the LDS church isn't what it purports to be. It's a very real fear. What other fears did you have, Michael, about life after Mormonism? A lot of it was fear of the unknown. I didn't I didn't understand what Christian culture was going to be like.

And so it was definitely a step in the dark as far as that was concerned. But the thing that I was afraid of the most was losing my wife and my child. I've seen horror stories where people left the church and then it resulted in divorce. And I was so afraid of that that I didn't tell my wife when I left the church initially. She ended up finding out because the sister missionaries came to my house and left a note while I was away and then she read it.

And then I came home and she said we needed to talk. And at first she was supportive, but eventually it did fall apart. And that was something that I I'd say that was my greatest fear about leaving the church and that I would lose my family relationships.

But luckily, aside from the marriage, all my other friendships and my family relationships stayed intact. I was really scared to tell my family. I didn't tell them for about six months after I left the church because I was just that horrified to tell them. I thought that I was going to be disowned or they were going to hate me. And they ended up finding out on Christmas Eve by watching a video on YouTube. It was really awkward.

But overall, everything else was OK. I can't tell you how I've told you this before, Michael. You and I were in contact throughout that time. And just how much I praise God for bringing you through that.

I know how difficult it was for you from the conversations that we had and just kind of how touch and go it was. And just just got to give all all praise and glory to God for his goodness. I know he's brought you to a place that you probably didn't see a few years ago.

And I just think it's incredible. Oh, yeah, there was there's a point there where I didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel. And I was literally asking God, like, why did you save me out of Mormonism? Like, was it just to abandon me?

You know, I was kind of feeling that way. And I think he just let me get all the way to the breaking point before he healed me just to show me. That he was all I needed, that he was sufficient and that he could take care of me no matter where I was. And, you know, I'm in a great relationship now. I'm married to a Christian woman and I couldn't be happier.

So, yeah, I never saw this coming. Amen. Praise God. So in thinking about fears that I had about leaving Mormonism. Definitely resonate with you, Michael, on the fear of losing your family.

You know, part of my story on that, Michael, and, you know, each of us will be sharing more of our story and other episodes. So I won't get too far into that now. But I think one of the biggest fears that I had was that I was wrong. That somehow in all of my studies, all of my efforts to understand Mormonism, its teachings, its history, whether or not it was true, that somehow in my conclusions I was wrong. And that plagued me for a long time. In fact, I would say that the first realization that I had that Mormonism wasn't true was probably around 2001, maybe spring of 2001 after my son was born.

And, you know, we didn't leave as a family until May of 2010. So there were a lot of years there where I dealt with kind of a crippling fear that I was wrong. And, you know, it led me to do more study and more learning. But of course, I was, you know, working through schooling for my business degree and raising a family. So it wasn't all just, you know, focused on studying Mormonism. But I think there was that fear of being wrong that kept me there longer than maybe it should have.

What about you, Matthew? Any other fears you want to touch on before we move on to better things? What you said, Paul, about fearing that you were wrong, I think that resonates really strongly with me because I like to think that I'm a fairly logical person. So just the thought that we were taught as Latter-day Saints, and I'm not sure if they really emphasize that anymore, because like we've said, the doctrine is changing constantly, that the only people who are eligible for outer darkness are former Latter-day Saints, people who have received sufficient light that when they turn away from it, that they'll be condemned. So there was always that thought in my mind, what if I'm wrong? You know, if I'm wrong, then it's possible I have enough light that maybe I will go to outer darkness.

I don't know. So that was probably, outside of the fear of losing friends and family, I think the fear of just being wrong and just standing before God and realizing that I was wrong, that just terrified me. Amen. I was so afraid of being wrong that I didn't even know that I was afraid of being wrong, because I couldn't acknowledge that that was a fear that I had. I had to stand there with my eyes wide shut, so to speak. And I was just like, I don't care, even if it is wrong. Like, I'm never going to leave the church under any circumstances. I was like, even if the prophet and the apostles abandoned the church and there's only one congregation left on earth, I am going to be in that congregation.

I am not going to fall away. And those were my famous last words. Amen. On the cross where he bore sin. And now I have the righteousness that is by faith in Jesus' name. I consider everything a loss compared to knowing Jesus. For who's sake I have lost all things because of the cross. On the cross Jesus took away the written code.

The law of words that stood opposed and nailed it there for me. And through the cross he put to death austerity. And in his body reconciled us to God and brought us peace. And I am crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but he lives in me. I consider everything a loss compared to knowing Jesus.

For who's sake I have lost all things. When I gave Jesus it was worth the cost. All my righteousness I count as a loss because of the cross. Some demand a sign and some seek to revise, but we preach Christ crucified.

A stumbling block for some, the foolishness of God. But wiser than the wisest man, the power of the cross. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord through which the world has been crucified to me. And I tell the world so I take up my cross and follow where Jesus leads. So I consider everything a loss compared to knowing Jesus. For who's sake I have lost all things. When I gave Jesus it was worth the cost. All my righteousness I count as a loss because of the cross. Thank you.