Identity: Mormon or In Christ?, Pt. 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1-9, which calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be, and the light we have is not our own.

It comes to us from without, thus, outer brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.

We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. You are listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. I'm Matthew, the nuclear colonist. I'm Michael, the ex-Mormon apologist. I'm Paul Bunyan. Let's get into it. Who am I?

It's a question most of us ask at some point in our lives. Identity is one of the most ubiquitous and controversial terms in modern life. The American Psychological Association defines identity as A. A set of physical, psychological, and interpersonal characteristics that is not wholly shared with any other person, and B. A range of affiliations, e.g.

ethnicity, and social roles. Identity involves a sense of continuity or the feeling that one is the same person today that one was yesterday or last year, despite physical or other changes. Such a sense is derived from one's body sensations, one's body image, and the feeling that one's memories, goals, values, expectations, and beliefs belong to the self. That definition touches on three aspects of identity, namely that it is personal, familial, and social. When seeking to define identity, we're dealing with a bit of a nebulous phenomenon, the sense of self, which as the APA definition notes, differs for each person. Nevertheless, this sense of self is something that is derived from our own understandings of our personal experiences, our aspirations, our ideals, our hopes, and our beliefs. In a blog piece titled, The Danger of Tribe Mentality Over Empathy, Lauren, the creator of the website Modern Day Om, Mindfulness and Mental Health for Real People shares her thoughts on an article she read in Mindful Magazine about how humans are biased towards claims that conform to our existing beliefs or points of view. She writes, For Mormons who lose belief in the truth claims of the LDS church, questions related to identity abound. Am I still Mormon?

If so, in what sense? Do I have a new identity? What is that? In the next three episodes, I and the other Sons of Light tackle that big topic. We discuss how one's identity is affected by one's faith journey. This week, we'll be talking about questions related to when we first recalled having a sense of self, and as a child, whether our religion as Latter-day Saints played a role in developing that sense of self, and then finally, what influence the LDS church had on our sense of self as we were coming of age in our formative and teenage years.

We hope you enjoy these episodes. Thanks, Fireflies. So, you know, this first question kind of asks us to look back into our own pasts, right, to get a sense for when we first remember having a sense of self. And again, a sense of self is defined as a way a person thinks about and views his or her traits, beliefs, and purpose within the world. So in a nutshell, a strong sense of self may be defined by knowing your own goals, values, and ideals. So, Michael, why don't you tell me, when do you first remember having a sense of self? Tell me about that.

I mean, this is actually a really tough question for me. I don't usually think this deeply, so I would say that it was probably as a young teenager before I started to have a sense of self. Because when I was just a kid, you know, I was just kind of going with the flow.

I didn't feel like I had any sort of goal or impact in the world. And I think it was just, you know, kind of when I was around 14, 15, and I just had my four or my three friends at church, and together we made up the Odd Quad. So we're just a bunch of nerds that hung out together. So I was just kind of like the comic relief in the group, and like I was just constantly wanting to wrestle, like at the youth activities and stuff. So I think I started to just kind of build an image of myself.

It's like, okay, I'm like, you know, the guy with a sense of humor that wants to, you know, rough people up all the time. What do you mean exactly like my goals and that kind of thing though? Because my goals weren't, obviously they were very short-sighted at that point.

Like my only goal at that time was just to have fun and meet girls and that kind of thing. Yeah, I mean those things develop over time. You know, they change, as do our identities, which is part of the topic today. So I think, yeah, I think you're right on point.

Yeah. So, you know, I started to kind of realize that I had some things that I was good at and some things that I was really bad at. And I think I defined myself a lot based on those things. So I knew, for instance, you know, I was always really good at writing from a young age. In fact, in high school, I had a hobby of writing fictional stories.

It never went anywhere. But there was one instance where I wrote, I started writing a short story and it was in first person and it was about being locked in a basement. And I just described it in such vivid detail.

I'm like, all I could hear was the drip of water and counting the water is what kept me sane. Well, they ended up pulling my parents in to the school and asking them questions because they thought that it was real. And, you know, it wasn't. I was just trying to be descriptive and trying to write and they almost got in trouble for it. So I saw that I was really good at writing and I was horrible at talking to people. You know, I was just super shy and just didn't think that I was very important at all because I didn't have the confidence that other people around me had.

So I think just kind of seeing my shortcomings and really identifying myself based on those things is when I started to have a sense of self. Okay. Yeah, good.

Yeah, that what you said about writing there resonates as well. I'll talk about that a little bit in a minute. Matthew, what about you? When do you first remember having a sense of self? That's probably, you know, early elementary school age, maybe. When I was a little kid, I was kind of like when Michael's explaining, I just kind of wanted to have fun. I like playing video games and hanging out with my friends. But like, you know, as I started growing older, I started to really like art. I really love to draw a lot. And so like when I grew up, you know, I was like all the, you know, the childhood fantasy of wanting to be a superhero and all that stuff. And so I drew comics and superheroes and all that kind of stuff all the time.

Superman and Batman and Spider-Man and all that. And so I was like, hey, this is kind of fun. And I'm like, I'm okay at it. You know, you know, for a five year old or whatever, seven year old, I was like, hey, you know, maybe I should do this as like a career. So then that was kind of like what really motivated me to just like really just really go crazy with my drawing. And like I just spent hours and hours every day drawing. And my parents bought me this really awesome art table that I would draw on. And I just drew a lot. So I think that's kind of when I first started to develop, you know, my sense of like who I was and what I was good at and like something that I could shoot for, you know, in my future career. And I'm not sure when that changed when I decided maybe I got old enough and I realized that my art wasn't really that good.

I don't know. But at some point that changed and I kind of moved on to other ideas. I also had a really good friend in school whose mom was just like a fantastic painter. She would paint with watercolors, but mostly oils.

She did portraits and she just did the most incredible artwork, but they were always struggling to pay the bills and stuff. And so I think I kind of felt bad about that. And I don't know, maybe I don't maybe it was subconscious or something, but I thought to myself, I was like, man, you know, they go through a lot of hardships and I'm not sure I want to go through that. So I guess, like you said, over time, I guess your values and your ideas about the shift and change over time. And I guess maybe my desire for conveniences or, you know, for a certain income or whatever. Maybe that shifted my my goals. I don't know. But yeah, I don't know if that's kind of what you're hoping for.

Yeah, no, that's good. That actually brought a memory to my mind, too, because I remember just playing tons of video games when I was younger. And I would go spend the summer with my cousin and we'd play like fighting games like Street Fighter and all this stuff.

And my dad was a computer programmer. So, you know, me and my cousin were talking one day and we're like, hey, let's grow up and make a fighting game. And it's going to be about, you know, all the mascots from the fast food restaurants. So it's like we got to get all their permission. So like I call Jack in the box and I'm like, is Jack there? They're like, yeah, just a minute. Just like sat there on hold for like 45 minutes. And we're just like honestly believing that Jack is going to get on the phone.

That's great. So how long did you wait before they broke the news to you? They never broke the news to us. I don't think they had the heart to do it. You know, they just kept us on hold until we gave up.

It's like, well, I guess I'll call later, you know. They didn't come back and say, sorry, he's in the box. No, they didn't.

They never came back. You killed Jack? Yeah. Wow. I have so many thoughts on how, you know, our values and our senses of self early on in our lives kind of intersect. It's interesting.

So, Matthew, I'm with you. Kind of like my first sense of self came early on in elementary school. I had a couple of different speech impediments. You may notice at times in the podcast that I'll stutter some words here and there. And the other thing that I dealt with when I was younger was rotacism, which is having trouble saying your R's.

So I talked like Elmer Fudd when I was in kindergarten and first and second grade and I used to go to speech therapy during school to help me with that. And there's one story in particular that my family thinks is hilarious and I don't really think it's very funny, but I was at my great aunt's house. She moved out to Utah from New York, my grandmother's sister, my dad's mother. And she lived next door to us and we would go over and she would give us cookies, you know, Oreos and chocolate chip, you know, Chips Ahoy cookies. And we would sit and talk with her and my great uncle Bob. And, you know, they had this German Shepherd dog named Bear that was just an amazing dog. And we would pet the dog and sit and eat cookies and they would sit and smoke.

And it was just it was it was another world living in Utah because they were very much, you know, Brooklyn, New Yorkers. And it was, you know, it was a view into my dad's family that I didn't normally have. But we were there one time and she had she had given us some pretzels, some of the stick pretzels, you know, and she wanted us to, you know, break them up and make our initials out of them. And and my name is Paul Richard Nurnberg and I used the pretzels to set out PWN because even with the letters, I was struggling, you know, not just the pronunciation, but with the letters and understanding the difference.

And so my family thinks that's hilarious, but I don't. But in any case, as a result, in elementary school, I got bullied a lot because of my speech impediments. And that was kind of one of the things that that first gave me a sense of self. It was a negative sense of self. But it's one of the first times I remember, you know, being aware that I was a separate person from other people and had differences and things. And so there was that.

But also, Matthew, you know, kind of aligning with you. I discovered a love of drawing around that time and, you know, would compete in a lot of like the reflections contests in elementary school, which was for art and writing. And I remember doing a drawing of the the Challenger disaster because I remember, you know, watching that live when I was in second grade and how how much it impacted my my second grade teacher because they were, you know, there was the teacher on board that shuttle. And so that kind of spurred me to to love drawing. And I did that for many years after that. And then, Michael, like you said, you know, later on in high school, I got into, you know, creative writing and did like poetry and short stories and really found a love for that, which made me a little bit different than than some of my friends at the time because I played basketball and was captain of the basketball team.

And, you know, creative writing wasn't really something that that, you know, quote unquote jocks did. So it kind of put me in a different category there, too, as well, kind of playing off of that that early life sense of self as as a child. What role did did your religion play in your sense of self, if any?

Matthew, what do you think? Well, it's interesting because I do have vivid memories of sitting with my parents at LDS church services in sacrament meeting and also going to primary. Like, I love my parents and, you know, I'm not trying to speak ill of them whatsoever.

I really appreciate, you know, what they've done for me. But, you know, we weren't we weren't really exactly we were we were Sunday Mormons, essentially, you know, we would go to church. And then afterwards, you know, I think I mentioned it before where we would shop on Sundays and stuff.

And that would kind of confuse me as a kid because we would talk about how you're not supposed to shop on Sundays. And I asked my parents and I wouldn't really get a straight answer and had also asked why my parents weren't married in the temple and things like that. So so it was interesting because, you know, as a small kid, you're still trying to like you said, you're still trying to figure out who you are.

You're trying to figure out the world. I still kept a kind of simple mindset where I liked what I liked, like comic books and video games and stuff. And I tried not to worry about too much stuff. But still, you kind of start to ask yourself those kind of deeper questions. And, you know, why do you do certain things or why do we do it this way?

And you question authority a lot more. I think at least I did as a little kid. And so, yeah, it's like it played a part of our lives. But I always wondered why we did it, because, you know, we didn't really integrate what we learned at church very well into the rest of our lives. Like it wasn't like my parents are bad parents at all.

They're great. But, you know, also my parents, you know, they weren't alcoholics, but they drink occasionally and they drink coffee pretty regularly. So I think that kind of that seeing both sides where I had my friends whose families were really hardcore and, you know, they were really devoted to the LDS faith and then my parents and I, you know, we went to church and almost seemed like a social thing.

So I don't know. It was really hard for me to figure it all out in my head, figure out why we went to church. And I didn't like going to church for that reason, because I was like, well, what does it matter?

You know, like, we're not really even doing anything the church says you're supposed to do. So it was a hard thing for me to kind of figure out. But in some sense, you know, I like the community and I like the social aspects of it, meeting other people and going to church functions and things like that sometimes, you know, where they'd have food and stuff, or they'd have parties or things like that. So it kind of played that role when I was a kid. But in terms of like the actual religious aspects of the religion, it wasn't that big of a role in my childhood.

Did the fact that you were Sunday Mormons, as you said, affect the way you were accepted within the LDS community at all? Well, I remember when talking to other kids and we would talk about getting married in the temple and how it's so important because, you know, families can be together forever, all that stuff. And just other kids being so excited to say, well, my parents were married in this temple and my parents were married in that temple. And they'd ask me and I would say, well, my parents were married in the temple and they said, well, why not? And I was confused because I was little and I didn't really understand, you know, it's hard to understand adult dynamics when you're that young.

So I didn't quite understand. So I felt a little bit ostracized in that sense. And then kind of as I grew older in my teenage years, I kind of started going more to church, especially before and after 12 when you see the priesthood. I started getting really active and going weekly. And, you know, I think I was like deacon's quorum president at some point. I can't remember.

I think I might have been. And teacher's quorum. And then after teacher's quorum, I kind of just started to stop going. That's kind of when my parents were going through divorce and I was kind of rough. And I kind of got to the point again where I didn't really see the point of going to church because I wasn't really truly a believer anyway. So I kind of had that. So I kind of had like dips, you know, hills and valleys, I guess, in terms of activity. And but I never really I don't know, I was like I wasn't really sure if I really believe in God up to that point anyway. It was kind of like I was going for other reasons.

Yeah. Michael, what about you? I completely agree with what he just said about going for other reasons, because that pretty much sums up my entire childhood right there. Churches, it was three hours long back then. And as a kid, that is not something that you want to spend your Sunday doing. So I kind of viewed Sunday as that day where we have to go to church, you know, great, you know, and then I have to get dressed up and I'd have to put on a tie and it always felt like it was choking me. So I always just felt really uncomfortable at church.

And I think the way that I viewed it was just that, you know, there's all these rules and none of them affect me positively. So Sundays, you know, I wasn't allowed to even go in the backyard. The family was very strict about what we could do on the Sabbath.

And, you know, that meant that there were just a few certain movies that we were allowed to watch and a few activities that were approved by them. And so Sundays just, it was just a drag as a kid. I hated Sunday. It's like, yeah, you know, it's great because I don't have to go to school, but I'd almost rather go to school or have to do, you know, my normal weekly stuff than have to deal with Sunday because I just, I was bored all the time.

And so that was really rough for me. That didn't start to change until, you know, I was about 14 or 15 years old. And I think the youth programs that they have in the church are fantastic. And, you know, I started to make a lot of friends in the church and it was very different from at school because at school, I don't think I ever talked to anybody, like pretty much the entire time, all the way through high school. You know, I just had a very small group of friends and that was it. But at church, you know, I had lots of friends. And so I was able to actually socially interact and integrate. And so, you know, I just, I guess I bonded with the other members of the church at that point. And I felt like, you know, this is my tribe. These are my people.

I'm actually happy here. I can be myself. And so that's really where things started to take a turning point for me.

Okay. Yeah, I grew up in a part of Salt Lake City that was a little more diverse, I think, than maybe other areas of Utah were. Like, for example, my first grade teacher was an African American woman from Detroit. And at the end of the day, when, you know, the last five minutes of class, when we would be taking turns being dismissed to go and get our backpacks from our cubbies, she would put on Michael Jackson and like teach us to break dance.

And like, we had to break dance over the cubby to get your backpack, you know, it was, I don't know that, you know, how many Utah kids had that experience. My kindergarten teacher was a Catholic, and she was from Central America. And she did, like in public school, she did like the Christmas story, right? Like, I was chosen to play Joseph. A girl in my class was chosen to play Mary. A friend of mine who lived up the street from me, who was also a Catholic, was chosen to play the innkeeper. And I remember he and his family were a little upset that he didn't get the part of Joseph.

I don't know if they thought maybe he should have an inn because they were both, both the teacher and the family were Catholic. And I was a Mormon, but it's like one of those experiences where I kind of remember there being some disagreement over the fact that I was a different religion than somebody else. And one of those kind of first experiences where I was realizing, oh, you know, my religion that I belong to because of, you know, the family I'm growing up in isn't viewed positively by everybody. And so I got this kind of one of the first times I remember feeling different because of my religion. But then, you know, when I was in fourth grade, we moved from, you know, that kind of downtown Salt Lake City, you know, in between Salt Lake City and Bountiful.

We moved from there to West Jordan and out to the suburbs. And the friends that I made at my new school, one was not LDS and then the other one who was kind of best friends with him, though his family was LDS, he didn't consider himself to be LDS. And so, you know, they became my two best friends through the rest of elementary school, middle school and then on through high school as well. And there were times when I felt some, what I would say is maybe some judgment from some of my LDS peers because my closest friends were not LDS. And I also saw my friend who was, you know, a really good kid, you know, be judged by LDS people like when we got into dating into dating years in high school, you know, he would ask LDS girls out and sometimes be turned down because he wasn't LDS. And it really used to hurt his feelings and make him upset. And, you know, I got to see that firsthand and talk to him about it firsthand because we were good friends and kind of a situation where I remember thinking, you know, that maybe wasn't as helpful to people to have that view of, you know, we're not going to have relationships with people outside of kind of the LDS bubble. And, you know, Michael, maybe you didn't experience that as much growing up in Texas.

But actually, you'd be surprised. Yeah, I mean, there was this one time where, you know, like when I was a young adult, like girls didn't pay attention to me at all. But there was this one time where one of my co-workers had a friend and she was interested in me. So, you know, we ended up going out like once or twice. And I was actually really interested in her. And then I go back to my apartment, you know, with all my roommates and they caught wind of what's going on. And they basically all told me, like, it was unacceptable for me to date a non-member.

And because of the peer pressure, I stopped going out with her. Wow. Wow. Matthew, did you experience anything like that? Well, I did experience some things like that. I mean, just the fact that, like I said, around 14, 15 is kind of when I started going inactive from the church. And I guess I considered myself an atheist at that time.

So I wasn't really ostracized for my faith. It was more for my lack of faith because, you know, being in Utah, most of my friends were, well, I mean, most of the people that I had gone on dates with in terms of school dances and things like that, they were LDS. And so that was kind of hard just because, I don't know, it's weird to think that it was weird to me at the time to think that, like, that I was okay enough to go to dance with at school.

But, you know, if I wanted to date, you know, ask them out for a second date, I know that they wouldn't. I didn't even ask, try to ask them out for a second date most of the time because I just knew that I just inherently knew that LDS girls only really want to seriously date LDS guys. Plus I was kind of young, so it wasn't really that big a deal to me anyway, I guess, at the time. But yeah, it was kind of rough and that just this idea of like, okay, well, shouldn't you date someone for who they are rather than, you know, what church they're affiliated with? That's kind of how I felt at the time because I didn't feel like I was a terrible person or anything. As I grew older and I, you know, became active in the church and I understood, okay, they really place emphasis on temple marriage and raising children in the church and I can understand why they wouldn't want to date me because if I remain inactive because you kind of want someone with a similar value system. So, you know, it was kind of just my, perhaps it was partially just my immature understanding of relationships and things like that and selfishness that kind of, that that bothered me. But yeah, so that's all I really dealt with.

Okay. I don't know if you guys ever heard anybody talk about this, but I remember being in the young men's program and them basically saying like, oh, you know, any two people, it can work out if they get married, you know, as long as they have these similar values and kind of made it sound like nothing really mattered. Personality didn't matter.

It was just, you know, that you had the same values. Did you ever hear anything like that in the church? I don't remember hearing anything like that growing up, but listening to others, say like on the Mormon Stories podcast, talk about their marriages and also, you know, talking with Angela and conversations that she had with other women during the years that we were a married couple within the church. She definitely heard that from women she talked to and it surprised her and I've heard people on Mormon Stories podcast talk about it as well, that there was that view that like as long as you were kind of both, you know, worthy LDS people, you're right. Personality and whether or not you were compatible in other ways didn't really matter.

It would work out and unfortunately, you know, I've seen that be kind of a bad thing for marriages at times. I do kind of remember something, hearing something about that. I don't know if it was, not Oakes, what's that guy's name? Holland.

Are you thinking of Holland? Jeffrey R. Holland? Yeah, I think that's him. I don't know if it was him, but I do remember people passing around the story that, you know, I was at a youth meeting at BYU or something and they're saying, I can't find a spouse.

Can you help me out? And he says, well, do you have a temple recommend? And then he says, yeah. And then he points to another girl in the crowd.

Do you have a temple recommend? Yeah. It's like, all right. Well, then you're perfect for each other.

You know, I heard some story like that, but I never went back to go, you know, to go check to see if that was a legitimate talk that they gave. But yeah, when I heard that, even when I was LDS, I was like, okay, whether he said that or not, I don't think that's super great advice. And maybe it's just because, you know, I'd seen, you know, my parents, you know, with their divorce, it was kind of rough and, you know, some level of compatibility in terms of personality is important, not just simply what you believe in.

Yeah, for sure. The next question is similar to the previous one, but it's a little different as well. So part of identity is social and cultural. So how did the LDS church specifically, like the church proper, not necessarily the culture, but the church proper influenced your sense of self?

Michael, what would you say? Well, the first thing that I think of is in a lot of ways, it was really positive. I really do well with a strict structure, like what I had on my mission and just the rules in general in the church. I just tend to be the kind of person that operates really well when there's a lot of strict rules. So, you know, I think it was a positive thing for me to be going to the church and just have so many, you know, strict things that I couldn't do, you know, and I was really proud of it too.

Like, oh, I don't watch rated R movies. I didn't drink caffeine. I went to church every Sunday and read the scriptures and prayed sometimes. So I think in one aspect, just the structure helped me with my life. But I mean, I had a lot of just, and I know you're talking about the church proper and the church itself wasn't something that I felt really committed to until I was actually on my mission. So up until that time, it was all about the culture for me. And it was just, you know, it was like a drug.

I mean, I would be hanging out with all my friends and having these fun activities and, you know, doing, you know, having great snacks and firesides. And I just liked everything about it. In fact, you know, I'm still like, man, I wouldn't mind reliving my childhood in the church.

That's how much I enjoyed it. I went on my mission and I still kind of had that mindset. And I'm telling you, there was a lot of pressure for me to go on my mission because my family line goes all the way back to the beginning of the church. And, you know, people have been going on missions for generations. I was like a seventh generation, Latter-day Saint.

And so that was just something that was expected of me to do. I don't think I really questioned it too much. But I went on my mission and I was still kind of in a culture mindset. I don't think I really knew the doctrine really well. In fact, my cousin was in the car with me one day and he found the Book of Mormon sitting there and he's like, you know, what's so special about this book? I'm like, oh, well, you know, it's another book of scripture written by prophets on the American continent.

And we have living prophets today. And he's like, well, what's so special about that? And I'm like, I don't know. You know, I just didn't have a mind for that kind of thing back then. All I cared about was just having a good time, being around my friends.

And that was about it. It wasn't until I went on my mission and met Ed Enochs and started debating evangelicals and they started to attack the church that I started wanting to defend it. And I started feeling like I was connected to the church somehow. And I think part of it was just the first time I started to really feel doubt about whether the church was true.

I just felt like really lost. You know, my whole family structure just felt kind of fake at that point. I don't know if that's the right word, but I just kept thinking about my whole family and I'm like, this can't be right because, you know, my mom and dad are really intelligent people. And especially my dad.

I mean, my dad was my hero. And I was like, there's no way that, you know, that he would fall for this if it wasn't true. Like, it has to be true because he's a member of the church.

Like, there's no question. And if it's not true, then, you know, maybe he doesn't deserve to be respected by me. You know, maybe I'm just wrong about everything in life. And if the church was false, then I had to be wrong about everything in life because that was the one thing that I was absolutely certain of was that the church wasn't some evil organization like people wanted to paint it out to be. When you met Ed and started debating with him, did that feel like a personal attack to you?

I don't think it did at first. I mean, I did feel, you know, this like pit in my, this hole in my stomach, like, oh, my goodness. Like, and I think it was more about just what if I'm wasting my time here and what if I'm wrong? But then as I left and I started thinking about my family and just kind of sympathizing with them and how they would feel if it was discovered that the church was false. I think my bond with my family kind of tied in with their bond to the church.

And so then it kind of started to become important for me to learn how to defend it. And it's kind of funny because I completely switched my mindset after my mission. Whereas before I'd been all about the culture and I didn't care about the doctrine.

I cared a lot about the doctrine, but I didn't really like the culture. Coming off my mission, I, you know, I wasn't in the same place. I kind of felt like an outcast a lot of times, especially, you know, coming out like all my friends from when I was a young man, they all got married really quickly. I think one of them got married like a week after his mission, which I don't know how you pull that off. And then, you know, pretty soon they were they were all married. And I just sat there like it took me a couple years. And I'm just like, okay, like this culture, you know, in Mormonism, like you get married quickly or there's something wrong with you.

And so I'm like, what's wrong with me that I can't get married? And then I also didn't end up going to school. And that's a big culture thing. You know, you're supposed to go to school. Like the first few years there, even into my marriage, if we talked to another young couple, that was always the topic that was being discussed is, oh, what are you going to school for?

And it was just assumed because that's what everybody does. And I'm like, well, I'm not really doing anything. I don't even I don't even know what my plans are or anything. I was just really, you know, not doing anything. But I just felt I just felt ostracized because of that. And even, you know, in the marriage and having my first kid, I'm like, okay, like, apparently we don't have enough children because we're just not that popular. You know, maybe if we had more kids, people would want to reach out and talk to us more. So I really just, you know, I ended up having some friends here and there, but I was really more like, you know, the church is full of imperfect people, but the doctrine is perfect.

So, you know, even though I hate it here, sometimes I'm going to stay here because, you know, where else am I going to go? No one else has the truth except for us. So you would say, though, on your mission and after that, your your sense of self as a Mormon, quote unquote, was strengthened. Yeah, I definitely saw myself as a Latter Day Saint on my mission and after my mission, it was inseparable. I think early on in my mission, you know, right after talking to Ed, I was kind of like thinking, you know, I don't think the church is true. And I was starting to read the Bible and I was like, if it'll just if I just find the right passages that tell me it's not true, I'm ready to go. And I was I wasn't that connected to it at that point. But, you know, really quickly after that, it just really latched on and it wasn't going to let go for a long time.

Yeah. Matthew, what about you? So when I had gone into an activity in high school, I had kind of had the yearning for something more to be more connected to something, you know, to whether it's, I don't know, something metaphysical or just to people. Like, I always wanted to have some kind of deeper connections with with people. But there's also always that tension also, because I was an introvert and I still am, where it's like, you know, I enjoy being around other people. But sometimes but most of the time I just like doing my own thing because sometimes because I just get stressed out too easily. So but yeah, I was always kind of searching for deeper friendships or or, you know, possibly dating and, you know, looking forward to marriage and stuff.

I didn't even start thinking about that in late high school just because I don't know, just like I said, it's strange. It's push and pull relationship where as an introvert, at least as I had it was like it was like I wanted to connect to people, but it was difficult because I didn't know how to. And it was hard finding people that connected with me.

So anyways, going back to the LDS church. So like having this difficulty of feeling disconnected from everyone. And I also had some difficulties with my job. I said some jokes where I had kind of gone too far, you know, like and it was taken the wrong way. And so because of that, they got really upset and they complained to the regional manager, basically. And so I lost my job. I think I mean, like I felt really bad about it, even though it was just a misunderstanding, you know, because everybody everybody I worked with were just, you know, we would always joke around and just say stuff that we didn't mean, you know.

And so I think, you know, I felt like they took it too personally. But I did I did feel really, really bad about it because at the same time, I know that if it were completely blameless, I wouldn't I wouldn't feel bad about it. I still feel guilty about it. So I was dealing with that. And I was in my first year of college where I lost my job. But I kind of wanted to leave anyway, because I've been I was working at Little Caesars for a long time.

It was like three years or something, you know, all through high school. And I got kind of sick of it. So I kind of did some soul searching at that time. And that's kind of when I started researching religion.

And I've gone over that and kind of other episodes. But to me, it was kind of like, well, you know, I think Christianity makes a lot of sense. But then it's like, OK, well, then which which kind of Christianity? And, you know, I kind of fell into the trap of like, well, you have to have authority.

So, you know, it's it's basically Roman Catholics or Latter Day Saints, because they're the only ones that claim to have priesthood authority, that kind of thing. So then I started going back into the church, got really interested in the church and like I just studied a lot and read a lot and absorbed a lot of LDS doctrine. And that kind of that kind of gave me that connection that I was kind of looking for, this idea that I'm connected to to God and to other people. And then I have the sense of belonging in the world that I didn't really have before that I was kind of always searching for.

I didn't really do that great in high school in terms of my grades. And it's not because I couldn't do it. You know, it's just that I just didn't see the point of trying. So I was just kind of a zombie, you know. But this kind of gave me a real sense of purpose and drive when I was thinking about serving a mission. And I felt like, you know, if this is true, if this gospel is true, you know, I've really got to dedicate myself to it. So it wasn't even a question of if I should serve a mission. It was like, well, if I receive a testimony, then I should then I definitely will go on a mission. And it surprised my parents because my parents never pushed me to go on a mission. You know, my my mom is still not active in the church and my dad at the time was an actor for a while, for a long time.

And then he kind of was starting to come back as I was coming back. So no one really pushed me to do it. So when I told him I'd been considering serving a mission, it really kind of shocked them. Those are kind of like my formative years, I guess, in terms of my being being reactivated in the church. I had a lot of people that would help me out and answer my questions, and I was really excited to serve a mission. And serving a mission, I felt like it was the hardest time of my life.

It was just like the most miserable experience most of the time. But coming out at the end of it, it just inculcated that that sense of identity that I was a Latter-day Saint and like this idea that no matter what happens, that's who I am. Like, I'm a child of God. I'm a Latter-day Saint. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm a priesthood holder. Those were like the core foundations of who I was. And I was like, even if everything else changes, I still have that.

Yeah, a lot of that resonates with me. So the church, I think, for me, was kind of all-encompassing when I was younger. I remember cousins leaving and coming home from missions and going to the airport to either see them off or welcome them home. And Saturday nights, during conference season, I would go with my dad to the stake center in Salt Lake City. Our stake was right by Temple Square, so our stake center was like a block away from Temple Square, and we'd go and sit and listen to priesthood session. I heard Gordon B. Hinckley give teachings like, quote, Each of you is a Mormon boy.

Whether you think it or not, you will reflect good or ill on the church by reason of your behavior. And those types of teachings, I think, sunk in for me and made me feel like, hey, you're a Mormon boy. Later on, when I was in LDS seminary and middle school and high school, David B. Haight was my favorite apostle. Just thinking about that, the fact that I had a favorite apostle speaks to the extent to which Mormonism was a major part of my identity. Did you guys have favorite apostles when you were younger? Elder Holland was, by far, my favorite apostle. I really started wanting to be a good speaker, and I actually started trying to pattern the way that I would give talks after him. Because I just thought he was so powerful of a speaker and so interesting to listen to, and I really liked Elder Holland.

He's actually still my favorite of the 12. I don't want it to come across as like, oh, you know, growing up Mormon was a negative thing, because there were a lot of positive things about it. But I think that growing up Mormon, there's definitely an approach that the LDS church takes to the way that it instructs children, that is aimed at developing an identity as a Latter-day Saint, is part of the instruction that's given and part of the purpose of the instruction that's given. So, I remember in primary age Sunday, I've got a list of songs we would sing, like, I Am a Child of God, which gives you a uniquely Mormon view of that concept of being a child of God. So does I Lived in Heaven, I Lived in Heaven a long time ago, it is true, the whole pre-earth life thing in Mormon doctrine, the Golden Plates song, Book of Mormon Stories, Nephi's Courage, the Latter-day Prophets song, Called to Serve, Pioneer Children Sang as They Walked, An Angel Came to Joseph Smith, I Hope They Call Me on a Mission, I Want to Be a Missionary Now. I'm not sure if you were alluding to it, Matthew, but like, the Church of Jesus Christ, like, I Belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you know, that song.

All of those are kind of aimed at kind of instilling in Mormon children a sense of being a Latter-day Saint through distinctives of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, right? And I remember when I left on my mission, one of my parents' good friends gave me a children's songbook, which I thought was kind of an interesting gift to give to a 19-year-old leaving on a mission. But he wrote on it inside and, you know, the inscription, like, encourages me to remember the truths that I learned from those songs. And I remember, you know, that songbook went with me to Hungary, where it was, you know, it was basically only there to be carried around in my scriptures because it was worthless for the children there, because it was in English, but it's something I carried with me and, you know, kind of held dear to me as like this memento of my being Mormon. I remember in the MTC, there was a, you guys probably remember the devotionals that they would have on Tuesday nights, and there was this one speaker that they would have in the eight weeks that I was there. He spoke probably five or six times.

Elder Kawai was his name, and he used to give these riveting devotional speeches about serving a mission in Italy and confronting Catholic priests with the true priesthood. And, you know, it just made me feel like, man, I'm going out to serve God, you know, and I'm gonna, we've got this power that they don't have, and we're just going to take over the world kind of mentality that was kind of instilled in you in the MTC. Did you guys sense that as well while you were there?

Oh yeah, for sure. I'm trying to remember the name of that song. Armies of Healman, isn't that one of those songs that the kids would sing? That was a really powerful song, and like, you know, they sing that part, you know, and we will be the Lord's missionaries, but then they changed it to we are the Lord's missionaries.

And then the choir director was like, she started bursting in tears and everybody was getting super emotional. You just feel this like sense of community and connectedness to, you know, that you're all there for the same purpose. You all came from different parts of the world. You all believe in the same message and you're going out to share the same message in the world. It was really like, even now looking back on it, it was really kind of a cool experience to feel like everybody's in this together, you know, like you really did kind of feel like you were going to boot camp in a sense where you were being trained to be a soldier for God and to share the gospel and things like that. And it was like a really emotional experience. I can remember that when we when we sang that song.

And but it's just and it's like I think about that. I'm like, man, like if we could use that, you know, for Christ Church, that would that would just be so awesome if we could get people feeling that connected. You know, I think that's one thing, like you said, in terms of children's or, you know, youth activities.

And I wasn't Michael, I forget. We're talking about how youth activities and youth programs are just really good to get kids involved in the church. The missionary program in the church really gives you a sense of direction and a sense of purpose and a sense of, you know, a sense of brotherhood with all of your fellow missionaries. It's a really cool thing that I kind of wish I kind of I kind of wonder if there's there are Christian organizations like that where they can connect like that.

The LDS Church is really good organization. You know, that's that's one really good thing that they're that they excel at. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I agree. I remember just sitting in the MTC, the missionary training center, them, you know, all those missionaries singing, you know, called to serve. That's another another one of those songs. And they just you sing it. It's so powerful. And it's like you do you just feel like you're part of the Lord's army and nothing can stand in the way of you. It's just like, yeah, I mean, we're the truth and everybody else is either going to join or they're going to get squashed. I don't know if I would have said it like that at the time, but, you know, it's just like there's this power in the church that you can't ignore. And it made you feel like the church was a much bigger deal than it really was. Like, I kind of just felt like, oh, everybody's thinking about the church, you know, one way or another, like all the time, like a huge, vast majority of the planet, you know, is is really, you know, worried about us in some sense. And and it's like now I look back and I'm like, I mean, and yeah, obviously it had a big part of my mind for a long time because I left the church. But I mean, a lot of the time I don't even think about it, you know, these days.

I realize that other people don't either, like other people have things going on in life. And it's just just this illusion that we had while we were out there in the mission field. Yeah, yeah, for sure. There are kind of some experiences that I had that kind of served as bookends to my mission. Well, I guess one of them kind of was during my mission. So I mentioned that David B. Haight.

Well, I'll back up a little bit. So when I was younger, we as a family, we would go to Temple Square at Christmastime because they had all the lights put out in the trees. And it was just it was a beautiful thing. I don't know, Michael, being from Texas, I don't know if you've ever seen that, if you ever got to see that in Utah or not. But, you know, they they deck out all of Temple Square, all the trees and everything with Christmas lights.

And they used to have. And I don't know if they do anymore, but they used to have on the lawn outside of the North Visitor's Center, a life size nativity. And, you know, the the wise men would be were out there, you know, giant camels sitting on giant camels.

I guess they were wax figures or plastic. I'm not sure what they were, but, you know, they'd be lit up in a certain way that was just beautiful. And then, you know, the North Visitor's Center was like the backdrop and you would have the Christus statue, you know, kind of overlooking the nativity from the window of the North Visitor's Center. It was it was just a beautiful setting. And I remember we would go with my grandma and, you know, push her around in the wheelchair and look at the lights. And it was just it was that was an experience that always made me feel more Christian than Mormon.

If I'm talking about my sense of self. Right. Because it was it was a time when you were when we were celebrating the birth of the Savior and he was the focus. And there was just this beautiful setting of lights.

Right. And it was all about Jesus. And then when I went on my mission, the first conference after I was out on my mission, David B. Haight gave a talk just after Gordon B. Hinckley had spoken. And he was, you know, basically, you know, doing what a lot of the apostles will do if they speak after after the LDS prophet, they'll say, you know, we're thankful for a prophet's voice, you know, that kind of thing. And he was talking about some of his remembrances from when he was a child and, you know, going to meetings in a little tabernacle in Idaho where he grew up and singing Come, Come, You Saints. And he said, I felt the spirit and power of the music would raise the roof.

You could feel it because of the power, the faith and the testimony of the members in that little tabernacle. We would have Aaronic priesthood choruses where we'd learn to sing. It was there we would sing a Mormon boy. We don't hear that song much anymore.

I wish we would. A Mormon boy, a Mormon boy. I am a Mormon boy. I might be envied by a king for I am a Mormon boy. And he goes on to say, that made a great impression upon me.

Just think of that for a moment. I might be envied by a king. Here's a king with all the power, all the pomp, all the wealth the king would have. But I was beginning to learn that we held as members of the church blessings, priesthood blessings, knowledge, information that the king wouldn't know about and didn't have. I might be envied by a king for I am a Mormon boy. And I remember reading that on my mission and just thinking, yeah, I'm a Mormon boy.

That's what I am. And it just seemed like another instance of where there was this inculcation of distinctives. And even now you see it with the most recent general conference and the new proclamation on the restoration. You know, there's always this push of Mormon distinctives. And when I was LDS, I wouldn't have viewed it the way that I view it now. I would have viewed it as, you know, that's us being us, right? And we have this important message.

We believe that the gospel has been restored and we have to get it out to the world. But my mission really kind of affected my identity. In one sense, it hardened my resolve to be Mormon, right? But in another sense, it challenged my identity as Mormon because I met people of different faiths. And I had in-depth conversations with people of different faiths and heard different viewpoints on things that I thought were kind of set in stone and realized that other people viewed them differently than I did. And it kind of instilled in me an us versus them mentality, I think, where I was really resolved to be Mormon, but I was also really resolved to be a Mormon Christian, right?

And, you know, it didn't matter to me what anybody else thought or said. I was a Christian, but it was important to me also that I was a Mormon. Okay, that's a wrap on this episode. Next week, we're going to cover several more questions related to identity. We're going to talk about, as we came into adulthood, how being Mormon had become part of our identity, how strongly we had a sense of self as young adults, as Mormon, quote unquote. We're going to cover whether or not tribe mentality can also affect Christians of other various denominations. And we're also going to cover whether making a faith transition out of the LDS church led us to experience a disturbance in our sense of self. We hope you join us for that discussion as well.

Thanks, Fireflies. We thank you for tuning into this episode of the Outer Brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the Outer Brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like. We also have an Outer Brightness group on Facebook where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes and suggestions for future episodes, et cetera. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness at gmail.com.

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Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com. Stay bright, Flyer Flies! Take my yoke upon you and learn from me For I am gentle and I'm lowly in heart And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me, I'll keep my word I'll make my home in you No one comes to the Father but through me There's nothing and no one else to live I stand at the door you're hiding behind Can you hear me? I'm knocking, won't you wrap me inside? And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me, I'll keep my word I'll make my home in you I give my life to set you free And now I live so that you will be a life in me And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me, I'll keep my word And you will find rest for your soul For my yoke is easy and my burden is light I am the way and the truth And if you love me, I'll keep my word I'll make my home in you I'll make my home in you In you