Witnessing to Latter-day Saints: A Discussion From the Front Lines

Is all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life was the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon all of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without.

Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening to our greatness podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of sound brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here except for Michael's angry that is angry that is angry.

That is a Matthew the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan right fireflies look into this episode of the outer brightness podcast and as conceived. Today we have a very special guest with us today we have Jordan Whitmire. He is the assistant evangelist, assistant evangelist director so he said yes, assistant evangelist director at that try Grace ministries in Utah so like to welcome Jordan to the podcast straight heavier thank you I appreciate you invite me on that. We just a short brief introduction of how we met is I'm in a group on Facebook where you rate each other's reformed memes online so people make their memes related to reformed theology or the reformed world or what have you submitted for people to rate it and there was a post on there somewhere where I had mentioned that I was latter-day St., and then Jordan's wife was in the group and she said hey my husband he's been doing a whole series on on Mormonism offers podcast so so yes we met up that way.

We kind of listen to some your some your podcast we saw that you did some work in man ties are really interested to talk to you and today were going to Focus on witnessing to Latter Day Saints from a Christian perspective how how to witness to them what Jordan has experienced in his ministry and maybe we can help those Christians were unsure about how to talk to their Latter Day Saints friends how to approach evangelizing them or talking to them and sharing the gospel. So will hopefully headed in that direction. And in this in this podcast and so are we hope nobody will listen that Dylan joy so thinks everybody for joining in. Thanks again Jordan for coming in podcast yeah think you should that all right so I didn't introduce too much about you other than where your doing a ministry. So stop asking if you like to introduce yourself. So if you like to tell us where you're from your early family life.

How and when you came to know and trust in Christ, etc. so I'll leave it up to you during yet another use. Yes oh yeah Jordan Whitmire yeah from from triggers ministries. He from Utah been a ministry for about six years and worn lots of different hats within the ministry, as we served the people of you from Utah you know really when it when it comes to history and where it all started started when I was pretty young my dad. He and my mom would just read the Bible to us. Often the greatest stories with with Jeff biblical lessons behind it and we would just talk about the Lord pretty frequently and you know I grew up in a Christian home, but really gave my life to the Lord when I was about seven years old, my dad coming up to my brothers and I we all can share a bedroom and he said no you understand the message of the gospel. Do you understand who you are and I remember thinking yeah I I am a sinner.

Yeah, I need a Savior.

I need forgiveness. I know and it's weird because at that age.

And when I look at seven euros for Mike Shirley. I didn't process like that, but as I remember them and think back through that I did. I pipe I processed through that and at that that moment in times when I believe I was truly saved but my face really grew when I was in junior high where I started observing and my youth pastor started observing different people different men in my life who love the Lord and what they were pursuing as far as vocational ministry and I knew that I wanted to be a part of that. I knew that that was something that I desired and so I started signing up for like missions trips and started really studying what little I could about the Bible and my mom had all these CDs that you could put in was before iPods are no you know, MP3 players or anything like that. Like these CDs that were the Bible being narrated and so I put the CDN start with Genesis and I would open up my Bible and I would listen and follow along in my Bible for hours and we do this every day and really felt like that was a foundation for my growth as a young believer and as time continued in high school I was volunteered at his is a youth leader in youth group started teaching, I really enjoyed that and when it came time to figure out what I want to go into it and figure out how I can but I want to go into full-time ministry. I just didn't know when, where, error or how that would be here with that would look like and so you know, from that point on. In that mix of things. My wife and I time we were dating. When I try to figure out residue she was attending school called eternal University in Longview, Texas, and I knew that I wanted to study the Bible to Bible degree. I also had a love for airplanes and that school offered aviation for missions and so I I applied thinking that has been a double major in biblical studies and mission aviation quickly realized I could not afford the aviation aspect of it, but still want to pursue the biblical studies aspect of it. So I decided I graduated from LeTourneau University with the biblical studies degree and really that whole area that whole time span was when God is moving in a direction where I thought I was in a be going in as it as it is a youth pastor or maybe Una and associate pastor and kind of pulled me in the it in a different direction towards missions, evangelism, apologetics, and really that's kind aware of wired and so in in the spring of 2012 I came to Utah for the very first time I knew very little about Mormon cousin and I had a heart to share the truth about the Lord.

That was it. And so I figured that would match and decided I would go to Utah and part of that reason, she was two years prior to my wife and I getting married. She came to Utah on a missions trip with try Grace ministries just have a shared experience sort of will always hear in in 2012, and that spring break trip. I quickly begin to realize that Mormonism was not the same as Christianity, and there was a big, big theological differences and was able understand the theological differences and and have engaging in effective conversations with the Mormons that I was meeting and they were perfect strangers. I mean, I didn't know them at all and the Lord really opened my eyes to and lead that was here in E from Utah and so for the end of that missions week Chip and Jamie Thompson and Gina Kim Jones who are both co-laborers in our ministry that, to this very day they approach me and they said they were looking for another young couple to join our staff would you would you be interested. Would you consider that and to make a long story short, I was very interested. My wife was not we move back to Illinois which is where were from and we we stayed there for about a year and during that time the Lord was really just moving in my heart and keeping a love for Utah and the Mormon people burning well my wife's heart was was being changed by the Lord and so she can't do one day she was Jordan.

I think we should really rethink Utah and so we basically pursued raising support for the next year and then moved out in August 2014 and that was the beginning of our ministry to Latter Day Saints with and try Grace ministries out great. So just to get time I straighten my head so you said you were saved around what age is around nine or 10 something is seven is now canceled As their Savior on seven and you may be maybe the nine or 10 or 11.

That's when you cut it started to really focus on growing understanding of the faith and then is about 15, 16, you said you were kind of really considering ministry right and then, but you're quite sure to go. Okay, so it seemed like the Lord's kind of progressively led you low bit step-by-step growing in your faith and understanding and kind of growing you and your your understanding of your future vocation and what other got how God would use your talents and your skills to do for the kingdom subs is one of the Point that out just because I let I know I'm on the engineer guy so I like timelines enough airlines and things in my head so Paul or Michael Jimmy questions the subject will follow up thanks thanks for the background.

Jordan so the curious dimension you're gone on some mission trips as a teenager is that kind of when you're your heart for evangelism was kind of what occurred in the back tingle in your heart or his identity varied experiences from from those mission trips that really cannot push you toward evangelism or when you remember being first aware of of people around you who were non-Christians or maybe part of, you know theological call stated that you you are aware of soul is just those kind of questions. Yeah. So the best is yet the mission trips we we went to Kentucky early on in my junior high years in the first year we went is probably in seventh grade and I just watched how people taught and what they taught and the need for sharing the gospel effectively mattered to me and I desired to be able to do that and so that next year I began studying hard, because I knew that there may be an opportunity for me to teach and the opportunity did come for me to just teach about the gospel of the true gospel of Jesus and that cannot launch me into hate.

This is important and this is this needs to be communicated effectively. As far as evangelism goes, I think that was kind of birthed out of just a desire to see lost people saved and that I think was birthed out of two things. One in college is really studying the word and seeing where the apostles would go and how bold they were and I was like man I really want to be bold like that. But in the second thing was, as I was a youth leader I would I would teach things and talk about things differently than maybe a youth pastor would and and was I wouldn't say necessarily harsh but was very very driven and very very bold and what I was saying and realize that the audience I was speaking to.

Probably wasn't the best audience for the way in which I was built and started looking into what evangelism looks like at least from a cold contact evangelism kind of kind of thinking and felt like that was more of where I was being drawn into and as I learn more about try Grace is a learned about more about evangelism and witnessing felt like that was more of my my personality. He also mentioned that you initially have an interest in aviation and gone on to do anything with that pilot's license or is or still dreams for that.

Yeah, no soap my father-in-law. He's a pilot my wife.

She's a pilot. She got her license and she was 18 and I have always loved the idea of being able to fly an airplane. I started with PS for PS one or whatever it was, with the simulator games. I've always thought they were really really neat and in really. I had a desire to even while a turnout wanting to maybe join the Air Force as a as an officer and fly like the B-1 bomber, but we soon became pregnant in those dreams know that he is going to fade away. So if I were to do anything. I would like to pursue.

If the Lord allows at whatever point to get a private pilot's license. I think it be great, but that mandate is probably not in the realm of possibility at the moment you live. Yeah sure Michael Jimmy questions or anything on it. I guess the only thing that they close.

My mind is you know we are the three of us obviously were raised in Mormonism and so there's kind of this feeling for us. Growing up, that it's just normal and so I guess what I'm really intrigued by his coming in first and more of your first impression on the latter-day St. people would go to, looks like from a Christian perspective who didn't grow up in the church yeah yeah so I would say this and I don't think it's selectively LDS people in general just people in general, when you look at the words of Jesus found in Matthew nine verse 36. That really was. I think my heart when I look at people write it says in Matthew nine verse 36. His he's just going through all the towns and villages, teaching and preaching the gospel and when he sees the crowds and says that he was moved with compassion for them because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd and I believe that's God's heart when we look at people who do not know God, who do not know him and his compassion of I love you and I want to see you know the God that I know and love the God that I know. So I would say that is in general for for all people at my desire but specifically for for Mormons. When I first met and got root into a really deep conversation with a Mormon. It was more just I want to know what you believe. I looked at them as it is an individual person, not just someone that I could have got gospel conversation with and and and their delegates and paved it was.

I want to get to know and invest in you see what you come from. See what you believe and why you believe that and just generally want to talk about it and then in the hopes that that would produce a gospel centered conversation and at first I didn't know how to guide that I did on a channel that very well. It was just very raw and honestly, the Lord was the one moving in in that direction are in that conversation and you know I was.

I was very curious as to what Mormons believed, but also was very heartbroken.

As I began to listen and hear what Mormons believe them why they believed it because I knew that I had a reliable credible historical faith based in the person of Jesus Christ was given, and that's given to me as a gift but but it is founded in in and corroborated in truth and that was something that I quickly realized that a lot of the Mormon people are talking to Mormon friends. I had just did not have and yes, that was kind of the very first encounter with with Mormons and kind of my my part behind that that first initial conversation or meeting alright thanks for sharing that I made. I think that's the thing that's important you know, one of things it we see a lot of this on the forums where we where we debate latter-day Saints. A lot is as a cannot say will you know you guys don't love us, you know you why do you hate us so much and is probably more of a online discussion problem. I think it's probably a lot easier in person to show them that you do care about them, but I guess if I had followed just be what would you say is is the key to establishing that for them right away that you that you really do love them as somebody who's witnessing to them. Yeah, I would. I would say helping them understand your position as it is an individual going to them in explaining listen just like you I was a child of wrath, just like you I was condemned just like you.

I am a sinner.

I am not special.

I'm not better than you, but I am changed not by my actions, but by the work of Jesus and I just want to share that with you and would you be willing to let me share that with you that the life changing the life-changing power is in God that's in Jesus who raised a dead man to life and I think they can see that in and see you just genuinely wanting to come alongside them. I think it's really important and I think a big maybe a better analogy or better story to kind of help illustrate that was was is this will run.

We run a not-for-profit caf� in E from Utah and we serve bagels reserve pretzels reserve bagels. We serve coffee drinks to serve smoothies meet anything you think of it, it's kind of like you know your your small-town bar in so many words and mean people come and they sit at the bar and the order a drink of the order some food and they just they pour their hearts out to you.

They pour out their life to you and there was one guy important particular who would come in in the fall semester with his girlfriend and there's a look right and I think a lot of the listeners and listen to this, or listen to your show will know and talk about. There's a look that a lot of Mormons have their clean-cut there good looking, both guy and girl there ready mean the confirmation they're looking to get married are looking to start a family that kind of thing pretty quick and life is good and this couple came coming in and they would order hot chocolate they would order smoothies they would order anything and everything but tea and coffee and they did that for a whole semester and they were very closed off and I didn't push the envelope with them.

You know I want to get to know my mean either names, but I really didn't have a really engaging conversation with them until the next semester and it really wasn't them it was him and the next semester after Christmas break. This guy comes in and he's not dressed like he used to be in. There's not a girl on his side, and I can tell something is wrong and comes in. He's looking at our caf� board right in and are caf� border menu has a section that says coffee and not coffee you know we we want to make that very distinct you know so there's no confusion for anyone who does not drink coffee for interreligious purposes or just personal preference and the whole time. You know he had been ordering smoothies or hot chocolate or whatever and I I was talking to him as it has gone and he's come to him and Han.

I'm looking at his eyes and is looking at our menu board and he's looking at are not coffee side and I watched his eyes switch to the coffee side and to me that's a telltale sign that something is going on in his heart.

As weird as that may sound that was a telltale sign of something going on election he goes what's a caramel macchiato and like eating a mock yellow legal yeah I said that's one of the sweetest drinks that we offer is that what you would like you to go sure is that he does give me a larger number of never had a drink like that, unlike oh you want a larger K as you want. Why don't mean that this is your very first coffee drink. Why don't I just buy it for you is a really yeah so I made it for him and and I is in making it. You tell me about his Christmas break and how horrible it was and to make a long story short, get a faith crisis and what kind of started. That was his girlfriend dumped him essentially and he started doing a lot of research looking into what he believed in why he believed it and honestly came away wanting him away, unsure, and I handed him the drink, and as it was explained that he just kinda broke down just like defeated and I grabbed his wrist and looked at him he should listen I can't tell you that I've been an where you are because I've never been Mormon, but I can tell you I know someone who knows where you've been and knows what you're going through and I can introduce you to them, would you allow me to do that and I'll walk with you through your pain.

I'll walk with you through your questions. I'll walk with you through your doubts into the best of my ability. I will answer those and if I can't find an answer. While find someone cancer and being open and honest with that individual that person who is in pain who has questions and instinct. I don't maybe have all the answers but there are answers. Let me let me life with you I think is just so vitally important. They're not a project you not going to win them in in just one conversation. Is it possible sure. Anything is possible with God. But in those types of scenarios. If you have a close relationship with someone who is LDS agnostic atheist, Muslim, Jewish, and they got questions, let them ask questions. Be willing to walk with them through their pain. I mean guys. Everyone has pain. Everyone has problems. Everyone is a sinner.

We live in a fallen world, and to to give a perception that your life is just dandy because you're Christian that's a lie is a flat out lie. Now your life is dandy and since you know Christ you know that the end in in in in who you are in Christ, but that doesn't make your life easier to make your life simple and that is a make your life pain-free and so to be genuine with your life with someone else. I think is really important especially in it what what I would call a relational evangelistic opportunity and I love that so much. Thanks for sharing, and especially with the latter-day St. culture I've had this even after leaving where this this fee for members and and when there's something bothering them. They commonly talk. They want talk to me about it because they Talk to the people and their circle because they can't have those genuine conversations because you have to have this fa�ade of of being like your life is dandy all the time when you're in the church so I'm sure that there is a just a thirst for that kind of relationship. So yeah I'll say this to any of your listeners who maybe LDS business. If you have any questions please please please ask your questions.

Please let Paul let Michael let let Matt know what your doubts are and these guys they can walk with you. They've been there. I haven't. They have a birthday. The inability to walk with you in a unique way that I can't as a born-again Christian who is never been Mormon. I understand Mormonism and I can talk Mormonism, but that doesn't mean that I I'm experiencing what you're experiencing but I love you so I don't know if that makes any sense, but but yet you're not alone and you are cared for and you are immensely loved despite where you're at and spite. Who you are right is a saying that that God loves you where you are right, God loves you for who you are like that.

I actually disagree with that God loves you for who you are where you are the God loves you despite of who you are. Any changes you and so you know we are a hot mess all of us are hot mess because of Adam and Eve right but God, being rich in mercy, he pours out his love on us and folks that something that you need to grab onto and understand that's not a love that you can earn that the love you can and should accept scrape that I've just been so callous up our conversation about really really early and think for kind of reiterating what Michael said is I really appreciate your your sincerity here their openness to witness latter-day Saints out of a place of love and concern for them and not out of a place of you know of contention are trying to win arguments or something like that and I think that's an answer I need to come from. There's only people to want that they have a lot of head knowledge about LDS theology or history and I think maybe have good intentions, but like you said, I think if if you build up foundation that relationship of love, or if you have that the desire to bring them to Christ through love.

That's that's the most important thing and I think we lose track of that easily. Ethically, we decided that because of our pride or because of our sinful nature but it happened so easily that we Need to remember why we were saved.

In others, nothing in us.

Like you said, there is nothing in us that God saw that Saturday he deserves right he deserves salvation he deserves freedom he saw us and that, despite all our sins and our sinful nature. He saved us, so I really I really think you for your your approach to evangelism your approach to talking to Mormons and it ultimately is all to the glory of God.

Yet, look I want and with one verse and then is no question but one verse I keep them in the forefront of my mind because I got a personality that can be and often is at times abrasive and literally check that the door more often than I would like to admit. But one verse I really keep in mind as I'm witnessing and thinking through his second Timothy chapter 2 verses 20 through four through 26, which is the Lord's bondservant or slave really is with the way I think it should be translated the word slave must not be quarrelsome, but declined to all, able to teach patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition and it's as if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been led, having been held captive by him to do his will and there I think it is the Lord slave right as a Christian to be quarrelsome for the sake of being quarrelsome over doctrine isn't beneficial. It isn't good. It's not leading anywhere you might prove some something or someone, or a a thought wrong but does not lead them to the gospel were called as Christians to be steep planters to plant seeds of truth, but not just truth but seeds of doubt as well planting seeds of doubt as to the truth so that when someone sees all yeah there is something wrong with what I believe they actually go somewhere and guess what folks, it's not that saves them.

It's God it's God taking what you have shared with them and growing that in their hearts and in their minds, in his timing that again in his timing. One more time in his timing that could be the year that could be 10 years, but the Lord is faithful to accomplish all that he wills, and he will accomplish that in you may be in in a part of that but but listen folks being quarrelsome isn't good.

It's good to be able to talk about a a particular part of Mormonism like the book of Mormon or you know the Bible or you know other different doctrines you some patient through works or salvation through a repentance process or the baptizer baptism that it's it's good to understand that stuff, but that should never be where our conversation hangs out. Our conversation should move very quickly from that conversation and connected to the gospel and that is where the conversation in our hearts and our love for the people that we are talking with that's where that should hang out if if it's flip-flopped, you might be doing more damage than good. Honestly.

And that's that's good advice and it's gotta get a good reminder to those who want to jump into the field of apologetics or or evangelism to latter-day Saints or anyone that there is kind of responsibility that we have to honor the Lord and Scripture does give think. Colossians 3 also gives a lot of directions as to how we should treat one another and how Christians should act towards one another. In addition to second Timothy so yeah that's I think it's really important because is not just the message that we preach with our with our mouth or with our words but it's the message we preach with who we are and I met so that I defy you to work on is being more loving and kind and really trying to reach out to the person and connect with them slick.

This kind of just a continuation of what we were talking about, but so we've talked about some barriers that's come up when you're trying to reach out to latter-day St. try to share Christ with them so in addition to some the barriers we talked about. Like for example you'd mentioned that you didn't have a similar background in terms of being a latter-day St. so there's kind that barrier there in terms of personal history that might become difficult to to broach, but are there any other kind of major barriers that you see when you're talking latter-day Saints. He kind of talked about doctrine being significantly different between Christians, latter-day Saints, so could you talk about some of the major barriers encountered when trying to reach out to latter-day Saints and kind of how you overcome them, yard, or leave it to the spirits overcome the maybe yeah so you know I'm very sensitive and I watch a lot of people that combine fact I was I was in Provo last night and street evangelism with our with nurses and staff and our intern at try grace and I had three really good conversations with four people and really it's it's setting your mind right before you go in right it's setting your migraines and okay I'm not be can be quarrelsome. I'm going to want to glorify the Lord. I want to make sure that I share the gospel, not just not just content and I think that's part of the preparation breaking down those barriers is praying is praying before the interaction happens because there's barriers in your mind, there's barriers in your heart of man on her right arm and I want to win the argument and man that's that's a that's a fleshly desire and honestly that's something I gotta beat down and asked the Lord to beat down inside of me. So I think that would be the number one number two. Be sensitive to the people that are walking by right. I do believe the Lord gives us a impression if you will, of who we are to talk to. I I don't talk to everybody that I see in the street I hand out tracks I might not try to flag him down here.

You have now are you know get ignored or abuzz offer you know, not today, or I am good or no get a life, get a job I've had all of that right. But then there are those people who walked by and you let the Lord just puts an impression on your hearts and go talk to them and there've been times where the Lord is said but you cannot go talk to them and I don't do it and I am just convicted to the core and early on.

That happened a lot because I was too scared I was too nervous to like and what if I mess up and I remember at one point I said okay Lord I'm not married yet again.

If you call me to go talk to someone ago do it and so every opportunity that that I get in field, directed by the Lord talk that person I go talk to them right and part of that barrier is, how do you approach and do you approach them and are you are you welcoming or are you kinda cold.

Are you joyful or are you scared you know it, and people can tell me people are not dumb people can tell you know where you're at and that's also to say this, it's okay to be nervous. It's good to be nervous. There's nothing wrong with being nervous. I still get nervous, but are you allowing the fear of talking to someone overruling you, are you learning the spirit, overrule your fear. I think that's a big thing when it comes to evangelism, especially street evangelism and and hear me out on this. Not everyone is called and that's okay. If that's not you, don't feel bad. Don't be like all man night and that's horrible if you give a desire to do that great.

You know, Pratt does it and guess what you're going to make mistakes but that's part of this you know the Lord is faithful and that's the thing to keep in mind, in all of this Lord is faithful but that is also another barrier that that I think a lot of people need to keep in mind is when you approach someone be open. The welcoming be kind, doubly pagan Mormon LDS. I mean that's just sent the wrong tone, but coming up to someone and in obviously this is how I hang out tracks like the track and to hate, may I say I give you this, please I'm asking a question right and it's not here you go or take the track or have got some for you and then often I'm asked, was anti-Mormon and I said no it's it's not anti-Mormon. I love Mormons are not anti-Mormon.

I love Mormons. I just don't agree with the doctrine, but this is this is not hating on Mormons at all. This is all about Jesus is all about the Bible you read that right.

You read the Bible you love Jesus right in the oh yeah Michael, then you should should take this you should read that you should consider and if you're willing to engage in a conversation. I would love to have a conversation with you and nine times out of 10 will take every once in a while they'll stop in the have the conversation say okay let's talk and I had that happen last night right where I had these two girls walking on the street or the sidewalk and I I handed them a track and the title track was his Mormon are Mormons Christians was Mormonism Christian and you can find that@godlovesmormons.com again. God loves more and.com and I handed her that track and she looked at it and she goes okay so the boat are Mormons Christian and it wasn't mean she didn't ask the question in a mean way it was genuine curiosity. I just smile at her and said I don't believe that they are but would you like to have that conversation I left in her. In her. I guess in her boat if you will record in her court to acknowledge and say yes or no and I think that helps a Mormon because they got this. They got a view of that they have free agency and that is allowing them in their mind to use that free agency to say yes or no if they say yes great let's talk about and you start going into the next point of barrier which is defining terms defining terms is huge.

So when she says is Mormonism is Mormonism Christian and or are Mormons Christians and I and I say no and she says yes.

Obviously there's a difference. But what is the difference, and that's where this conversation was for the conversation can get sticky you can totally miss the person you're talking to and in and they can totally miss you as well and so that's where just getting on the same page with terms matters, so I again I started with her and said okay let's let's talk about this� From you believe in God. I believe in God, who is God to you.his heavenly father. Okay, who is God to you about God is his. Yes, he is the father buddies Jesus and the Holy Spirit. All she you believe in the Trinity.

Yes, I believe the Trinity why don't okay. You don't what will. What do you believe, again I'm asking open ended questions not pushing in a direction that she doesn't want to go.

She's wanting to go there because she's initiated that kind of question right. I'm not I'm not starting with this conversation, you know who is who is God right in and I define some terms you define some terms, and I asked her what about polygamy or what about X, Y, and Z you don't just jump ship.

You don't just jump topic you stick with the topic at hand. And so the hard thing is this if you don't understand. You don't know what you believe and how to effectively communicate that you need to study. You should be able to know what you believe and why you believe it and then explain that you might get nervous. You might follow. That's okay. But if it's I believe in God but I don't know how to explain why I believe in God. I think that's a problem right you should be able to define your terms effectively so the other person that you're in conversation with knows what you're talking about. They may not agree with you, but they have an understanding of what you're talking about, and the same is true for the Mormon you're talking to you so I was talking to this again is done. This young woman username but I asked her. I said, will you please define your term when you use the word heavenly father or when using the term Jesus Christ, who are you referring to and so she referred to Jesus Christ as her elder brother or her Savior or what what you mean by Savior. What is he saving you from right and her friend was right next to her. She had a different definition right and so that's the other aspect of this is you may have a definition that comes from the Bible that matches other Christians. Definitions of who Jesus is and who God is and you may all agree on that. But when it comes to Mormonism and other religions. Mind you, again, specifically Mormonism, there may be different definitions on the same person or topic based on the individual. You have to let that play out.

You can't look at the Mormon you're talking to you and say you believe this right because that's what your church teaches you can't you can't do that you have to let the person the individual tell you what they believe and what they don't believe you have another person right next to them say well I believe this may be completely different from what the other person says you have to be able to to look at the underside okay. You may not be able to hit on all cylinders but at least understanding that there are two definitions going on within within the same religion that is okay to acknowledge and not try to force one way or another. Right. Someone may be closer in understanding the true Jesus of the Bible than another person and you don't want to take them away from that understanding. If God has brought them to that point that makes any sense. So there can be a lot of barriers but again defining the terms you yourself defining terms and having the person you're talking to define the terms out of respect. Just you for the conversation. They may not respect you. They may not respect what you believe, but if they can engage in the conversation, they should at least respect conversation not to define their dear chart their terms so that the conversation can be an effective one if they're unwilling to define their terms or their kind a wishy-washy it's okay to not have the conversation to good. It's okay to say no. Let's maybe try to have a conversation of the time or this conversation may be better had across email or whatever can I get your contact information. That way they can see you are defining your terms and that way you can see there defining their terms because they cannot be wishy-washy or as wishy-washy in a written format.

It's very hard to do so again if you are a better writer than you are a speaker that may be one type or one barrier that you can overcome and say hey I'm not really good at talking about the gauge and vandalism. I am a better writer than a speaker. Can I just get your contact information and send you email and nine times out of 10 that works that works it's great that we only talked in our conversation before before interview you gave me a lot of nuggets to of truth to to think about because so often we kind of go the route that you were saying how you know I guaranteed your church teaches this. You know versus what the Bible teaches. I think that can be helpful in some circumstances, but it's it's difficult almost to talk to latter-day St., who is not quite sure what they believe. What I mean where there kind of like you'll say something else they will make sense to me but then you might say something else and then also not make sense to me but you know there kind of contradictory. So how do you talk to latter-day St. to isn't really even quite sure what they believe or maybe they came out of a Christian background and converted to latter-day St. church and you know and they don't quite know a whole lot about latter-day St. theology so you know how you can build those difficult situations.

Yeah that's a good question.

So what when dealing with someone who may not know what they believe, there's two approaches one you teach Mormonism to them.

And when you teach Mormonism to them. Oftentimes they freak out because they're like oh I don't believe that all most Mormons who are not in Utah that I've met and I could be definitive want to say here, but most Mormons I've met who are not Utah do not understand the fact that they are doing altered doing within the Mormon church to become gods.

Very few people that I've met outside of you to where Mormons believe that. So when I'm in a conversation with a Mormon who is not from Utah is a year to become a God someday and look at me with a bizarre look. I immediately asked them where you from and if they're not from Utah that I leave it alone. I don't want to implant that some thought in their mind, and I don't want them that to distract them from the truth. So I leave that one alone. I don't I don't that's something I don't need to teach them right then and there unless they want to come back to have a conversation say where did you read that I I don't believe that. But where did you read that I can shown the other approaches.

This affirm that it's okay to not understand or know what you believe it's okay I'm I don't expect you to know everything. I don't know everything, but we can learn together. Would you be open to that. Yeah, sure. And then you just taken through truth. You don't need to go through and say what you believe about this when you have that they don't know. So to do to try to hammer that out. Really you got a blank slate in my opinion. Now they needed lying. They may not not saying that Mormons Daniela time and I don't want to cast a bad light. Please don't please don't think I think that about all Mormons, but most Mormons that it have said, you know, that's a good guy.

I don't know what I believe you know that's okay to say you know what, that's an okay place to be right now. Can I share with you what I believe and 910 that they're open to that. I do conversation with it with a gentleman up to three weeks donor caf� is not rated on a mission that's what he claimed he was adopted in normal family and used to go off to Italy. If I remember right I said eight in preparation for your mission. I want you to represent Jesus. Well, so what is one topic that you love to talk about and he said with the atonement. I love talk about the tone of the gospel is a great what the atonement once the gospel they sat there he thought about. He thought about it for four minutes. I didn't interject I just let him do they looked at me and goes, I'm not prepared for my mission.

I can explain and I looked as if you know what that's okay but I want to I want to share with you how I would look at that. Would you mind if I did that and he's a know God love that.

So I begin to explain what the gospel was with the atonement was from a biblical worldview and I showed up in the Bible.

I showed him the references and I marked him and you know I wrote little notes by those little verses and I told him by the way, it's okay to write the Bible and make notes and character. I got done he said he said thank you for that. I think you've really helped prepare me to think about what it means to go on a mission and represent Jesus. Well, I said let's get him glad that that is that is the case, I said you need to remember something you need to follow Jesus, not man. And if you going on this mission is following Jesus on a trust Jesus that he can carry you through.

And that he as you study that you'll see Jesus is for you will see Jesus for who he really is. But I can tell you something right now the Jesus that you read about in the Bible is not the same as a Jesus of Mormonism, and he looked at me, which is kind of a confused looking is okay I'll I'll study more and let him go. But again I didn't stop him safe on your mission didn't stop was a man, do you know what you're talking about how dear you night I used in and in affirming Lansing.

Hey, let's get prepaid let's get you prepared for your mission because here's the thing folks God can and have as and does work through Mormon missionaries who actually become Christians on the mission and it's amazing to see that and so I'm not about ready to dictate what this guys going to do or not do. I could tell him what he should or shouldn't do necessarily if if he's being led. That way maybe by the flesh made by the church, but maybe God laid him in that way to bring him to himself. I don't know I'm not to take that position. But what the position I will take this. I want him to know the gospel and I want him to know Jesus and he's in a claim to represent Jesus. Well I want him to hear the truth. And maybe that truth will set him free. It's not my job to stand in his way. It's my job to plant seeds in his life.

Yeah that's great so you can of you work off of what what kind of commonality to have between you or if he shows interest in a particular topic. You kind of best to try to find something to connect to it sounds connection.

It so so I can ask one situation. Let me let me ask another one that that electricians might run into have a friend.

Actually she's a former latter-day St., and she's been talking to missionaries online and a lot of what's happening is that it's not that they don't know what they believe, but the lines are trying to be blurred a little bit, you know, like the missionaries would say well we're just another Christian denomination you know where were all Christians together. Or maybe you'll talk latter-day St., who will understand and see the differences between what you're saying or what Christian is saying to them and what they believe and they'll say well you know if if it's what or whether we are right about heavenly father.

Whether God is a Trinity, you know, it really doesn't matter right, it doesn't it doesn't really matter if you go one way or the other you know God will make it all right in the end, so situations like that, were they know what they believe, but they don't really see the point of why they would need to become you know why they would need to learn something different or trusting Christ.

The Bible, how would you deal with those situations. Understanding who God is from him. His perspective matters.

We don't do it to determine who God is or isn't. If we do it for creating God in our image and our likeness in an hour.

Desire then it's an idle Munson images, it's not God. When talking about the same God, so in that regard.

I don't I would say to Mormon who knows what they believe in the explain to them they say will really doesn't matter, then the responses within you really don't care about your God. You really don't care about the person, the nature of the God you believe in, so why should I trust what you have to say. Let me show you the God that I believe initially the God that I trust and this is who he is. This is who he says he is and I will not move from that. So if your God that you're praying to her talking to doesn't match the God of the Bible who says I am that I am on the self existent one before me. There is no God nor norther they got after me. I am the only only got, I do not share my glory with anyone or anything. I am the first time. The last time to beginning the end I am the all creator God, your God's not this if your God isn't that your God is not the same as my God, your God may exist in your mind, and I believe that it.it's I do believe that you love your God, but to say that it's the same God is our God know that it's not or you believe in a God that was a created man Dodds is not created. You believe in isn't really a plurality of gods you the Trinity is is not 01 being is not someone.it's it's three individuals that become gone.

State did always exist being gods and so walking through those theological topics I think is is really important with a Mormon who claims that they know what they're talking about, but says it doesn't matter you can in that regard be a little bit more bold and a little bit more direct in your approach and you need a holder you can make them on their theology and if they're unwilling to Holder the theology or on their theology for ongoing owner theology within the conversation.

They're really not respecting conversation even make them own it and see that there is a difference and that's what this girl did last night.

You know what we believe is a guy we lose a government looks okay. Let's break this down, I broke it down for her and I said okay is this and this.

The same know is this the same know so we don't believe the same God duly is no okay now let's keep moving forward. Now that we've established that I'm not try to convince you to believe, and in the God that I believe in but I can at least show you the God I believe in and the guy that you believe in our totally 100% opposite. That's great. I love how you are talking about everything situational is not like a cookie-cutter approach to witnessing and so Paul, Michael and I we were all latter-day St. missionaries and so I don't know about you guys but I was listening to Jordan talk reminded me a lot of my mission because we did a ton of street contact and it we try to do the same thing. You know like get a connection with people.

It was when I was just going through the motions of trying to talk to them. It didn't get anywhere but was when I try to make try to make a bridge to talk to them that it actually usually went somewhere. So one thing I wanted to bring up to income in conjunction with with the Carmichael's run at anything and I've been in kind of a talk a lot cigarette yet. I was just want to comment on one of the things that you were just saying. That is, when the those lines are being blurred. One of the things that I was that I've done recently. That's been effective is you see that he St. Salic alum saved by by grace totally and fully by grace like Jesus is all I need, but it's like I know that that's not really what LDS doctrine teaches and so when they start blurring the lines like that that I will. It's a double edge sword and I'll usually say yes the restorations not not necessary than it usually they'll backtrack at that point and and then they will start to show those differences a little bit more just leave the what does the distinction at the end of the day. They want the distinction to because for the restoration to be invalid about a valid thing.

There has to be that distinction. So I think that something to keep in mind that they want that to be there.

Yeah I would. I would also add this Michael is you know what reason why I guess the restoration doesn't matter that was that. We said or it's not necessary was unnecessary. It you know you could almost reword that phrase into questions they will.

If that's true then why does the rest, duration, matter and let them think through that question because when when you have a thought that you you you answer the question that you've answered the think through it that is frozen. It wasn't me lay got disconnected. That is, so there is going slow. Really good to sorry there are best for the back of the beer commercial break goal while a Dr Pepper commercial and there is all right where it where I live and need from you and it's pretty spotty. So sorry about that. But like I was in say I was in that conversation so I don't know maybe it was more appropriate to just make it a statement rather than a question, but again there there multiple ways to go around yet.

I do agree with you. I think that that asking questions is typically better than making statements when it comes to the latter-day Saints because Peggy was more of a benefit of the doubt instead of you know, just kind of using force on them and saying this is what you believe or what you should believe. I think Soviets can point to hey I is on the contents on some things and some things that you've kind of brought up at various points in the conversation I Jordan did mention that there were all kind of a hot mess because of Adam and Eve and you know you you talked about their conversations with Latter Day Saints and kinda starting off by Building common ground the same looking I will. I was once like you I was once the center I was once a child child of wrath and I to those things I think about you. I think a lot of times Latter Day Saints. They did don't view themselves as children of wrath, they don't view themselves even really as sinners. Ray, I think a lot of times that goes back to that this idea of like the fall versus like a fortunate fall. Know what one woman writer that I'm familiar with Eugene England sending him Mormon still look upon Adam's is a depraved willful sinner caught up in a pride of his own being and a desire to know which led him to rebel against God, but rather see him as a great courageous figure shows a difficult path to his and all men's progression the way of estrangement and reconciliation of sand and resulting openness to redeeming love and your kind of view of of of Adam is a courageous, courageous character.

I think I think Mormons can view themselves in that way as well brighten and they tend to think that we make mistakes and that the cut of the weight of the mistakes, rolls off their author shoulders pretty easily, except when it comes to maybe the cultural pressure they may be filled out more strongly than the in the sense of being a sinner. Did you find on your conversations with Latter Day Saints and how do you broach the subject and get to the heart of the gospel. Yeah. So it in view of you know it is one of one of the two questions that are an ultra instrument that when the first is you know the view of Adam and Eve fell in the right direction. Right, and that that we we try were all God's children were were good for the most part, that kind of thing. I asked him to consider again the words of the of of Jesus in Matthew chapter 7 where he talks about the heart of man goes through goes through step-by-step almost know it. The heart of man is evil. It's it's it's obvious it's full of hatred and murder is goes on and on and on and then I asked them you know, do you believe Jesus is real Julia Jesus Drew is a yes the why don't you consider his words. This all came from the fall of Adam. How is that a good thing and they pause in his lifetime to say I don't know but I know what I've been taught in this would've been taught okay I understand that's what you been taught but the most important person who ever lived in most of time is a changes while if Jesus is most important person ever lived.

His words are the most important words ever spoken changes okay so I would invite you then to be taught by Jesus.

I know that you been taught by a bishop and her mom and dad and someone else are close to, but if Jesus is more important than your mom and your dad in your bishop and you take Jesus's words more seriously because when you look at sin when you look at Adam, we look at what the Bible says about how all men die throughout is not a good thing. Therefore, the fall of Adam and Eve the rebellion of Adam and Eve isn't good and we can see that in their reaction, their reaction was immediately to cover up their shame with fig leaves and God didn't accept their own. Their efforts to cover up their shame. Their righteous acts to cover up their shame. God didn't accept that in his grace and his love and his kindness and his mercy he provided animal skins. He performed the very first sacrifice for their sins and so to say that data may fill in the right direction. The only way to to substantiate that to say yeah that that's true or that's the the proper perspective would be to say that God allowed them to cover up their shame or God said if you can still live in the Garden of Eden. But he didn't. He did not do that and so we look at that story we have to reconcile all the actions not only of man, but of God. After the action of man that was separation was banishment so I don't have the answers you're getting your first question, as far as how you deal with a Mormon who views the fall in the right direction that they're not sinners, but that's one way going back to Jesus's words, not my opinion, is not my feelings. Jesus's words have to deal with Jesus's words have to reconcile what you believe with Jesus's words and his words agree with what you believe right, but his words disagree with what you believe you have a problem you do your problem as far as the other religious aspect of things go you know looking at it from the perspective of of religion versus culture is that, what you're asking their poke at the I think when I think back to when I was why was Latter Day Saints that the view of the fortunate fall really kind gives one view of sand that's not as weighty as it should be in my mind yeah and and that also goes to know how one views the holiness of God.

And that's that's kinda key to conversations with Latter Day Saints as well. But what I think was dating Isaac and I have a sense that they can feel the cultural weight of sin rather than the weight of sin from the holiness of God, yet is just curious about how how you interact with that. Do you see that within your conversations. Latter Day Saints yeah I think the culture of the weight of sin is the weight of sin because of culture rather than God convicting them I think is is huge both in the drive in the aspirations of Mormons and attending church and being good. I think that's what keeps them at bay morally if you will. I think the culture wasn't there.

I did, I don't know that there be very many Mormons at least within our area that would be doing good we going to church actually believe what they say they believe the way I like to look at. At this, especially in conversation with Mormons is finally dealing with a religion also dealing with the culture and the religion and the culture are so intertwined. There almost a separate inseparable way I like to tell it to kind of explain this to Christians who are talking of Latter Day Saints and saying be careful how you approach this would be and why ask have you ever served in the military would have someone who has generally someone in their family or they themselves have at one point or another. Certain military and then I asked him that you will you is there a lot of pride in that. Yeah. Is there a lot of celebration that yeah you know my granddad, his dad, my great-great-grandfather. They all fought in the war and that they all fought for America that can thing and EIS question you and you were taught all that that was all that was taught is Ms. truth yeah absolutely might might not their people have died for this kind of thing and I asked asked the question. Well, what if I could prove to you and show you that that was a lie that America really didn't exist or that the missions that your grandparents your dad or you went on was really for nothing that would be a huge culture shock that would be crazy by this crazy town and that I would say is very similar here when we talking to talk to Mormons Latter Day Saints about sin and about about man about about God is.

You're not only wrecking the worldview when it comes to the room.

The religion you're also wrecking their culture and where they're from and so you need to be very, very, very, very careful not saying don't share truth and not saying you tiptoe around the truth, but you need to realize and be sensitive to the fact that this is an all encompassing thing this this religion dictates everything about your life and just ripped the carpet out from underneath people isn't okay isn't loving right it is to say, we will walk with them and show them pieces of truth as God directs us and so it is Canada going back to the first question. As far as certain, or even the same question of the new do they see their sin as a cultural construct of weightiness or do they see there are sin as a you is a conviction or comparison to the holiness of God.

They may not be ready to see the vastness in the holiness of God. Maybe they will are, maybe they're not announcing avoid that. What I am saying is taking baby steps to show them you know this is what Jesus says about man you are a sinner pinky wrap your mind around that.

Yeah okay great so you wrap your mind around that. Now I want to bring you to the idea that God is holy and what does that mean God being holy means of the other you something set apart is something uniquely different. What is that mean you build on that right you build on on untruth but but also kind of baby steps. There's like this is your call this but this hunger and thirst, principal.

If they're hungry they're not there to come to you and asking more questions after Thursday to come and ask your questions, but if they're not and you keep feeding them. You keep pouring water if you will down their throats to be able swallow it all back enabled it to Justin while you let them process what you're talking about. And so you don't give yoga steak to a baby with no teeth of the not saying that cannot talk to them about the holiness of God. You should but again I think there are there are unique ways and steps to do that with someone specifically Mormon who may have never heard the truth. Never heard the gospel and there there are those who agree with me and there are those who disagree with me and what you said but that's kind of been my approach when it comes to certain individuals, not everyone but but I would say certain. Most individuals I will say this I know a gentleman here in our area who grew up more and he had never met a true born-again Christian until he was 53 years old 53 years old.

He had never heard the gospel ever guys there are people like that in our lives all around us. You have to come to Utah. I'm sure there are people again. It's hard for us to imagine is people who are him him in America. Say what you never the gospel note there are people of never does because it's never been explained effectively that that's our debts, our positions, our job to go and share the gospel is God's job to safety is a Mormon phrase you could say that in America the field is white already to harvest say that again I'm sorry.

As such, I wake Michael out of his slumber that I just said no. This is a common phrase in Mormons say is the field is white already to harvest okay yeah basically the mission field is here. There's people to find there's people out here. Yeah yeah immediately it's can use that you know there's another verse. It's escaping in mind right now but you know that the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. While that's true meetings. You know, if you feel called to share the gospel with individuals who you're in contact with. And God leading you and that you to honor him and do that angry Michael, did you have something Wanda does have a I'm just kinda getting lost in everything that that you're saying mean that it's it's just all really really good stuff.

It's all resonating with me a lot and I think it's really really good approach because I think all three lessons kinda come across you know what again Christians that are on our missions that were a little bit more aggressive for an on and I think young, wanting to throw us off balance, but weren't really willing to to be there for us if we started to doubt our religion.

And I like what you said a lot about you having to want to be careful but I would just add to that. Just realize when a Mormon leaves what what happens to them was like he said the culture is so intertwined that it's almost inseparable. And so that means that when the Mormon leaves. They are going to have hardship, there's gonna be sacrifice is going to be shining and so they need that new family to step into and so I just got it make a shadow here to those Christians who stayed there for me and planted themselves in my life and I don't know what I would've done without those guys what it it's interesting to bring up Michael because there's a girl who I just met two or three days ago in our caf� is from California and she's she's young, she's right out of high school. She's in college like 17 and she came in she sat down and I just start talking and I said you know what your background where you got she's like well from California used to be Mormon, but I'm a Christian and okay sometimes. Sometimes like okay are you really a Christian or okay let let's let's let's see where this action comes from guys she got.

She's totally safe. She doesn't she she been a cushion for three months, which is in all the ins and outs but man she understands the gospel and she understands she is and that's just fantastic. It's very simple very child like faith and she said, but I'm scared.

Okay why and she said if I attend a Christian service.

My parents will pull all the funding that they're giving me for school away and I depend on him for my car dependent for my food. I dependent for everything and yet I know where I'm at and whose I am and I just don't know what to do and again it was one of those periods where it was like your hearts breaking. You want to empathize with them, but you can't because you never been there but in this case. In this case I kinda have been there in the sense of I've counted the cost to be a missionary in Utah and I letter to Luke 14 starting in verse 25 were Jesus talks about the cost of being a disciple.

He says if you if you don't hate your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, your wife, your children, even your life and you'll pick up your cross and follow me here unworthy to be my disciple.

And now that he has his terminologies to describe common cost looks like and I shared with her that verse in the context of God drawing my family out here you know, we wanted to stay in Illinois comfortable with our family, our families are awesome and will only that, but God was asking us who do you love more me or them and it isn't really God to Jesus taking the closest relationships, humanly speaking, that people can have an saying your love for me should in comparison should look like in comparison to your love for your close relatives should look like hate, you should love me more and follow me desire me more and and that was that she struck me so hard and so deep to the point where I realized when a Mormon leaves their faith. There also leaving their culture and their leaving their family and I have to empathize with that. I have to I have to mourn with them because that's a real morning, but at the same time. I have to say it's worth it. It is so worth it.

I so wish I could be near my family, but my wife and I have chosen to love and follow Jesus more and honestly I wouldn't trade the last six years here in Utah to go be with my family and that's a hard thing for someone of companies come out of Mormonism who is a born-again Christian. Or maybe just again coming out of Mormonism, a Christian, yet in seeing and realizing all my family just my friends, my culture, they hate me for. Is it worth and that's for me to point them to Jesus as a yeah it absolutely is worth it, and to love them through that. So if you would if you think about it how to say her name is L just pray for L and she has to front header yeah main praise. Gaudio made it is it is a tough road and it I guess it's what David Maypole advanced you can all say coming from that experience.

It does get better over time, and it is worth it. It's worth it 100 times over. The men and men. It's also a Band-Aid and I just had to rip it off and like one out when I was I don't get what I was saved I started to read. You know I was like you know God, I don't know if your Trinity. I don't know what you are right now but I'm to put my trust in Christ alone to save me on.

I can trust my ordinances and all my temple ordinances, like and trust anything and I was still a mess. You know theologically that it really quite understand what was going on but in that fear that you talked about the fear of losing family that fear losing relationships. All that it it II was so afraid to and I had never been out of the church that there will context all life. So to say you gotta move out of that go somewhere new, is scary and I tried I tried to stay as a Trinitarian Mormon in Ohio is like maybe I can try and fit my my beliefs into my Mormon life and I just like God: like tug on my heart sing like you.

You can't stay Mormon. Your you know Mormon. Don't believe the Trinity what are you doing enough so took a few months for enough for me to kind of guess gain the courage or the understanding of the knowledge to know what God is done for me and realize I'm not latter-day St. anymore. You know I'm in the church I go to church every week, but I'm not latter-day St., that's really hard for them to really bridge that gap.

So things are shared all that it is a great conversation so far. Do you have any other advice you give the Christians when or when a single latter-day Saints annular advice than what you are given my own thinking maybe you wish you could know when you started your ministry.

Maybe that you wish you could tell yourself does the one who provides people. You don't need to go chase people the Lord knows who he's calling and he will put you in their path. You don't need to go chase down knocking down every person that walks by your path and convince them of the gospel, God's in charge of that you if you do if you do that yourself out your ear to a just and really frustrated because yeah it you're doing it in your own power. You might in the Stella God calls us to do.

Trust that God is faithful and that God will bring people to you and he will complete the work that he is starting or started in them that keep your eyes focused on the Lord not on the not not necessarily on the people as you do that God will bring people in your life that he will call you to talk to and be faithful with that. The second thing is be available don't make your schedule so busy that you cannot be flexible for a gospel centered conversation. If you are too busy well is a limited this ministry can be very busy in their other jobs are very very busy.

I get that business does not equal effectiveness.

Busyness does not equal effectiveness.

So if you're busy busy busy busy busy all the time, you're probably not very effective, but if you're effective and you are pointed in the right direction. You may not be all that busy to keep that in mind as well.

When you're when you're looking at life like I'm just too busy for that. Are you being effective.

That's a question that I think a lot of us need included needed ask ourselves often how busy am I in is that busyness really effective and I would say this to trust the Lord will give you the words to speak. You may not have memorized key passages of Scripture, you may now not know all there is to know about Mormonism that's totally okay. God is in control and God knows what the other individual needs to hear, and so trust that and then when that conversation ends you like man I should've said this, this, this and this know you shouldn't of, because God didn't love you say that he said that everything that God wanted you to say and let God be the one to stir their hearts and does a lot easier said than done. That's great. Let's that's advice that I think you and Michael Paul partly agree that's a good advice here for us even having been latter-day Saints and having witnessed latter-day Saints dies keep our perspective not to get too busy you keep focused on Christ for move on Paul or Michael join anything is to say I think part of the problem that I have being an ex-Mormon is you know, kind of having this idea yeah like LA, I know there the language I've got some kind of advantage in can be that temptation to not trust God as much. You know, and things that I've got some kind of evil secret weapon or something and it's this is not true you know of Tennessee that over and over again that I'm really powerless to bring somebody to the gospel so you could point out anything that I just think Jordan's comments are spot on. There's times when I think I force it probably try to say more than I should. I think it's it's good to remember to keep in mind the other person listens to listen to them closely. What are the questions that are asking them what and then consider why they're asking them and then you know when when the conversation stun you know, get on your knees and lift them up to the throne of grace and pray for them, so a single one more thing and way of just encouraging the Christian who is in this conversation.

Always ask if you can pray with them afterwards. The reason why say that is because when I first moved out here. I was told Norman's cannot believe how Christians pray like it's so foreign to them and it's like when Mormons pull parole to kind of like they are planning to have a father but it's like you're praying in there they're hoping that it gets to his voicemail kind of thing.

I believe that I'm like yeah right I don't think so and and the most wild thing happened the first year I was here I was leading a Bible study in this Mormon girl came in and she look normal but she was and we did is Bible study she was listening as a village close with prayer Jesus and he wouldn't have any prayer requests that you likely pray for an end. Several people mentioned some stuff so I said okay let's go before our great God and prayer and lift lift you so I begin to pray and just. It was very deep, very heartfelt, very very open to the Lord and when I said a man. I looked up and this girl was just sobbing. I don't think I prayed for her and things you mention a prayer request and she ran out of the room like what I say. So I I kind of followed her out as it hey is everything okay. She's like yeah I said whoa, what's wrong. She was nothing I said hello what are you crying like that she does that prayer was the most beautiful prayer I've ever heard in my life. She said you are actually praying to God that not only juvenile but knows you and I don't have that and I don't know what to say I should use anything.

Just remember the God that I prayed to Israel.

He loves you and she said okay and wiped her tears and she let her know Sargon, but just praying and allowing the person you're speaking with to witness that to see that they may have never experienced someone actually praying to God that not only you know what that God knows you was just that this is huge and want one final thing. If you're in a conversation and you tell the person that you're talking with you know that's a good question. I don't know and you tell them that you're going to find the answer and get back them do it not be the guy or girl who gets the information and get the person's contact information and never contact them again.

That does a lot of damage and credibility to the message that your talking about, so if you're not going to contact again don't offer that, if you're going to contact him again then offer that but follow through with whatever you're going agree with to get advice that like you said, if you try to build a connection incredible trust and the first conversation you have. You break that trust. You never know.

The next question might come by. They might be one of those people that you know they sale not interested at all in a talk to you when may be, they would have if we kept our commitments of super important. Yeah, Paul and Michael and I we knew that as missionaries as LDS missionaries, you know, if he didn't call someone back or you know you missed an appointment or something thousand eight, you might as well just read them out of your book out of your little missionary handbook to the planner.

So what one question I had that that I wrote was that I thought would be interesting to talk about is so as a pastor as a husband as a father. I guess as pastors and evangelists director as a missionary I what Scripture passages forgive you comfort when you're struggling either with your calling, with no family life or you feel you fill it you have difficulties or are temptations. Whatever it is looking to passages of Scripture give you comfort or help you in those times yeah I think passages that talk about you trusting the Lord not trusting your heart is on huge Proverbs 25 my trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding is huge.

There is students only times where I have planned something out like it's supposed to work a certain way and it just falls flat and doesn't work, and there are times where I don't really have had planet but it it it goes. It complete opposite direction and it's better right than what I've planned and that's a huge one to be realistic and set appropriate expectations in the appropriate expectation is really unaddressed Lord. Everything else and you can you can say I want this to happen, but it may not happen. The just may not. The other thing is the verses that talk about who God is, in that she declares the end from the beginning that God will accomplish all that he wills right the verse that talks about how you know that the rain is sent to the earth to accomplish what it's going to do in watering the ground in God's word will do the same and not return void.

I have to trust that I have to ground myself in those passages, knowing that God is in control.

And lastly, the universe, it talks about how God will complete what he has started in me, and oh what a wretched sinner I am. And yet, despite that God isn't supported God and God will accomplish what he will if he says is going to do it easier to do it. He doesn't go back on his word, and so those are verses that again. I kind of hold onto in IE I think about often when I get frustrated or tired or you know just almost apathetic because at times it does, it can get just monotonous in the sense of day in day out talking to people on symptoms just want to tap out because something I get anywhere.

But then the times were no years down the road person comes in and in. Hey you're Jordan yeah and I remember you talking to me you know four years ago and I know you prayed and think of it, much then, but man that conversation rock my world. Okay cool. You know that that's like wow God, thank you for that. That's that's fruit in in that fruit.

You may not see for years and years and years and years. I think another aspect to being in full-time ministry is looking at your family first.

I think a lot of times the temptation for a lot of people in ministry or pastors is to look at their ministry.

First and devote all their time and effort there and I think in that regard. Ministry becomes an idol in the thing that should shouldn't exist, or should not have that spot in a person's heart and I many times has found guilty of that so and keeping her eyes fixed on your calling, and not just your calling of history, but as your family and as the leader of my family. I have to I have to make sure my family is being cared for spiritually not just physically, and if I'm not caring for my family spiritually than I got no business going for anyone else in that way.

That's great, thank you for all those insights and that that could be encouraging out help to others who were when this anxiety. Saints are made have close friends or family.

They been trying to talk to and it's been years and years and years and you know maybe they're getting weary. Maybe they feel like that's not getting anywhere but like you said, it's it, or just planting seeds. It's all to the Lord to really bring that increase, so we've kind of given messages directly to our latter-day St. listeners if there if there those are listening, then you cut a closing messages or remarks you like to give to any of them specifically yeah out one I don't hate you I love you and the Christians that I run with you they love you. We disagree for sure on major theological points of things that matter. But we don't go and share what we believe, out of spite or because of spite we do it out of love and not only love for you but love for the Lord the Christian engages humor and invites you into conversation. I would ask if you willing to have a respect for conversation and the same goes for us is if a Mormon comes to us and asked to engage in conversation we ought to be gracious enough to engage in conversation so I would just invite you to just do that because again we went desire to share with you what we know to be true and our lives have dramatically changed because of it and we just want to share a gift given us and so that's the intent, and if you ever see a Christian who is not acting in love or who is being disrespectful know that's the individual that's not the heart of Christ. That's at the heart of all Christians. Don't let them become the reason why you just stand Christians understand the Christians are sinners just like you were not perfect, but we are made perfect in God's sight through Jesus out of our own righteousness and amended at thank you very much Paul and Michael for wrap up.

Did you have any other questions or comments. So say thank you to Jordan for joining us really appreciate his insights both when we talk previously and tonight thinking now absolutely thinking as you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed your ear sites to just the spirit that you you know that the tone in the spirit you have with talking to Latter Day Saints so it's awesome. Well, praise the Lord. It's like you said it's it's the Lord working in means not the my personality like a scented beginning can be and often is very abrasive and I have to check my heart a lot like okay cannot do this. I cannot do this in my own strength and if I dealer my own flesh. I'm risking a ruin in a minute and when it I'm a screw up, and it is totally 100% the Lord in completing his work in the eye. I know I'm a work in progress and it's it's a sanctification process right and so yeah that's it. Great. And so for relieve off this is your time to do any shameless plugging forgot to mention an introduction that I mentioned your podcast, but in much the name is prospective underground correct yes Yep okay underground. Jordan, the upper prospective underground is podcast that we just launched in January 2020. It was something that I wanted to do you put together for various reasons, but I would say that the first is the good couple main reasons is I wanted to reach the world with the gospel and I did not do that.

Other than a podcast and so that we lost podcast as far as the name goes it's borrowed from an uncle of mine who was in ministry. He passed away about seven years ago six years ago. Some like that and had a radio program that dealt with Christian apologetics and engaging worldviews is the tamer that was prospective underground. So it's kind of caring on that that the name of that heritage.

There out of disrespect for what his ministry was in so that yeah that's that's her show prospective underground. We engage Christians and encouraging them to have effective communication with people of other faiths and religions right now were dealing obviously with Mormonism, but we will branch out into other religions such as Islam, Judaism Jehovah's Witness, atheism, Buddhas, and the list goes on. It's important that we are ready and equipped in season and out of season to give an answer for the hope that lies within us and we may be ready Christians. We need ready and that's what that's why we put together the show we have prospective underground within that ministry and its under the umbrella of tri-Grace ministries, which is an organization that that again this is set up to reach people for Christ. Specifically, in our context, people of the Mormon faith and again doing it in love and we do a variety of ways through the caf� through resources that are online which will mention here in a second through various different avenues and so where you can find those resources and videos as it tri-Grace TR I Grace.Ward is tri-Grace.org they can find handouts printable handouts that are totally free. The Kyle icebreakers they can help the conversation along.

Remember, those are tools they don't replace the Bible. If you only has those are not the Bible. I would ask that you not download download those use the Bible but if you want to help your Mormon friend understand what you're talking about the visual aid is really for them as a visual learner to see what you're talking about.

And there's also a book called witness to Mormons in love, answer right, revised edition of the Mormon scrapbook that was written by Daniel Thompson, the founder and director of tri-Grace ministries in that book. If you are looking how to how to effectively have a conversation about any topic within Mormonism.

You need to buy that book. That book has helped tons and tons and tons of people understand Mormonism and we even had no Christians who were ex-Mormon, look at that at that book just to make sure that the concepts are, they were talking about our spot on. So yeah there you go. Those are the kind where you can go to find resources I'll make one more one more shameless plug if you're really curious about Israel and you really curious about the Bible in the physical evidence for the Bible we we take trips to Israel. Every single year and so if you ever wanted to be a part of a Israel tour of her unique Israel to go to our website tri-Grace.org and check that out. You can sign up there in and get more information. The other the other thing I'll make mention is this every other Thursday. So this past Thursday. Yesterday we do a Facebook line of video where Chip Thompson talks about archaeology that he is found within Israel and why it matters to the biblical story and why it matters to the authenticity of in the reliability and the historicity of the Bible. And so if that's something that you want it that you're interested in would like to learn more about you can go to our solid. This is called the solid rock Facebook page and E from Utah click that follow that and we do Facebook live videos of the.

The Bible Museum within our caf�, so check that out be a part of that. I would love to have you great all right so sound like they got their Galloways contact you through either listening to podcasts perspective underground or tri-Grace ministries rent so yellow different ways.

It can get a hold of you if they will or more. They want to come to church at the youth church services or something that you like to also mention yeah so there's there's two churches in our inner area right now.

There's even judge the Bible which starts at 10 AM Sunday mornings and then there's a sister church plant a church that that we helped plant in Gunnison Valley, Utah, and that's called Gunnison Valley Fellowship Church and those services start at 11 AM on Sundays.

Okay, okay, well, I'd just like to thank you Gendron for coming on to the other brain is podcast and at what will be cut across cross. What's were transmitting crossposting. I guess both of our podcast so celebrating EMS that it was definitely the flyaway That Have an Effect.

But No, It Really Thank You for Going on. It's Been a Great Conversation. I Really Hope This Will Be a Blessing to Both the Christian and Our Latter-Day St. Friends, so Thinking of Her Command. Thank You for Having Me and I Really Appreciate You Guys and What You Do Yeah Will Will Talk to You Guys Later Says Get Together Much Thank You Thank You for Tuning into This Episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd Love to Hear from You. Please Visit the Outer Brightness Podcast Page on Facebook. Feel Free to Send Us a Message There with Comments or Questions by Clicking Send a Message at the Top of the Page.

We Would Appreciate It If You Give the Page Alike. We Also Have an Outer Brightness Group on Facebook Where You Can Join and Interact with Us and Others. As We Discussed the Podcasts past Episodes and Suggestions for Future Episodes, Etc. You Can Also Send Us an Email at Outer brightness@gmail.com. We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer brightness podcast on Apple podcasts cast box Google podcasts pocket Cas pod be specified in stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel and if you like it be shirts to lay hands on the unsubscribe button and confirm it if you like what you hear. Please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael.

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Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page@adamsroadministries.com stay bright fireflies in the key is is an a a and I will