What About Sacraments?, Pt. 2 (Articles of Faith Series)

All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life of the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own.

It comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son.

We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening to our brightness and contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of sound brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here, except when Michael's angry dad is angry that is angry. That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologists on Paul Bunyan. The fifth article of faith states. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administering the ordinances thereof. The topic of the ordinances or sacraments of the Church of Jesus Christ can be discussed in very great detail. Over the course of many episodes will do our best to introduce the differences between the ordinances of the LDS church and the ordinances of the Christian church. We are Matthew, the nuclear Calvinist squirrel Jedi Michael BX Mormon Mr. Hyde apologist and grandpa Bunyan. Let's get into it. Historically, there have been differences in opinion on how many ordinances or sacraments. There are what purposes they serve etc. is this something that we should worry about. Does this disrupt the unity of the one the quote one holy Catholic c meaning universal and apostolic church" that we affirm to belong to.

According to the earliest Christian creeds offering a new stylus also got Michael okay I think it is my turn anyway right so is this this is something to worry about. I don't think that it is something that we need to worry about.

I actually really like the differences in some of the churches in an you know this. This is just dark spelled out hundred percent in the Bible so I'm really okay with it. I think the only time I would start to get a little bit concerned is if somebody was going to the point of saying that Christ wasn't sufficient that we once saved by by grace alone through faith alone.

If I saw something going beyond the scope of that then I might be a little bit concerned but otherwise I don't have a problem with it. I'm trying to see if you asked me something else.

There does this disrupt the Guardian. The one holy Catholic church, yeah, I don't think that it's a problem only disrupts the unity of all I think it's just just a unique style of worship and the audience saw all under the umbrella of Christianity blossomed people so my plans was cut short should be. Think about it, yes.

Yes she would discuss it.

Yes, she was thinking yes disrupt yes as a person allows to come between them and believer, I'm with Michael.

I think that there are some interesting things like is a comparison between looking at the major branches of historic Christian Roman Catholic Christian Orthodox and Protestant and comparing that with the latter standings in terms of number ordinances and purpose is something that was interesting stuff that I can kind of touch on later but I think one of the interesting things I noted is that there's differences that are interesting so confirmation right is one where there's differences that is that a New Testament ordinance is not in their questions around not that interesting to think about so on that later.

Okay, cool, and if questions come in your mind you know of my discussion. You can just let me know if my church as a sacrament of doing circumcision is that bad all just referring to Galatians just messing with you. I know I would mention this hypothetically, but yeah this so I'm not sure how much I have thoughts in mind of things to talk about in this question. It's fascinating to me to read so much difference in Christianity historically over the ordinances and technically the real first disruption of denominational lines. I guess you could call it was over the subject of the Lord's supper goes back to Martin Luther, and Ulrich Zwingli, so they had written letters to each other about each other's positions of what exactly the Lord's supper was and what it conveyed and what representative what was actually there. What were you actually consuming so it's interesting because I don't know about baptism, I would study that quite a bit but I been reading in Ackerman Babb Inc. he was a Dutch reformed guy. He's got a really solid systematic texts for volumes.

The reform dogmatics and he talks about about Zwingli and how he's kind of been maligned as seeing all of the Lord's supper. It's literally just eating bread and it's just a remembrance. You, nothing happens, but really he talks but how Zwingli did believe in spiritual presence in the Lord's supper is Osprey fascinating to me because people said well you know he just I was eating bread. Nothing happened. But really, let's not quite correct to believe in spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's supper, but he saw the Lord's supper more. It's kind of like, like more of a profession of faith. On the one who receives it an account number. All the tiny details, but after much how he thought he sought his particular supper was kind of your affirmation and your faith in Christ, similar to how you respond positively positively to preaching or hearing the word. It's kind of along that lines and Martin Luther. He believed that Christ was physically present in the supper. Now the difference between Martin Luther's view and the Roman Catholic view is a Roman Catholic view kinda goes back to these seasoning these kind of Aristotelian categories where you have accidents and substance so accidents are what something appears to be in substance is, what it actually is. But you can't really see the substance you only see the accident so Roman Catholic theology, especially around the time of home in all St. Thomas Aquinas course you can develop this idea. This Aristotelian idea of when you bless the Lord supper the bread and wine when they start out there that the accidents of bread and wine in the substance of bread and wine when they're blessed by a priest and they say the Latin hock addressed NM corpus ma'am this is my body. It literally transfers the substance of the Lord's supper into the body and blood of Christ.

Both the bread and the wine and so the substance is completely change there's no substance of the bread and wine left, but the accidents remain so it looks like bread and wine taste like bread and wine, but it substances the body and blood physically of Christ, so that differs from Martin Luther's view, the sense that you believe that when you bless it. When you say those words.

You know you're still saying this is my body, so he believed that there is some kind of sacramental sacrament will happening whether he would call the transformation. I'm not quite sure what terminology would abuse but you're actually physically the physical presence of Christ is in the Lord's supper.

However, it's not replacing the substance of the bread and wine. It's kind of added to it and is a term that reformed and other historians use of his doctrine and Lutherans hated.

I was gonna mention it, so sorry to her Lutheran listeners, but reform have historically called consubstantiation, con meeting, like with an substantiation meaning substance so the body and blood of Christ are are with the substance of the bread and wine. They don't use the terminology they called real presence. So anyways that this was the distinction between the two views that really separated the Reformation in the beginning and it they wrote letters to each other and they were very, very strongly opposed to each other's view and it wasn't until the Marburg colloquy, which was in 1529. I had pled up separate all year was when they finally had that meeting and it's it's the it's the iconic meeting where you see a painting and what is happened or not. We don't know etched on it was the Latin hock addressed in them. Corpus ma'am this is my body.

And Luther just kept pounding on it, you know, I just kept saying that over and over and over again because he said you know he is view is of the bodies physically there. So how you know the words are so clear. So why don't you believe that you know it's it was kind of a sign of Christians struggling to understand the opposing side. I think nowadays we have a little bit more understanding or you know a little bit more grace. I think between the denominational lines but back then it was very, very firmly believe in that. And I was the first time that really the Reformation, split a little bit in terms of, you know they did, they couldn't see each other having fellowship in terms of worship services, because one thought that Christ was physically present in the supper and one thought that he was only spiritually present and then Calvin John Calvin. He kinda had a middle way where he believe that you do become united to the body and blood of Christ, but it's not through a local physical presence, meaning Jesus Christ, physical body, but are not in the supper itself, but your sacramentally united to the spiritual presence of Christ in the supper. And because you cannot you know if you're if you're if you united to the spiritual presence of Christ united also to his physical body so it's kinda like lifting our bodies up to have lifting us spiritually to heaven in the heavenly places to become united to the entire person of Christ, including the benefits of his body and blood that were there were shed on the cross so he had kind of a middle view sort of between the two, but I like a study that recently and I was fascinated by all the different views and and I'm like I can kinda see Zwingli's being. I can make sense and oh my, Luther makes sense to you know, but ultimately I think I think help us to hold to Calvin's you yet to be a fascinating. I think it disrupts unity in the sense of the universal Church of all believers, but it does cause us to have denominational differences because I can ask know why because if you if you believe that your consuming literally the physical body and blood of Christ or Leno locally and someone believes something totally different.

It's hard to really have 100% communion do not mean because the cadets what community represents is not communing with Christ, if you feel your communion with Christ a different way than some of the elves. I can understand why they would not want to do that. Me personally, if I were the Lutheran Church I would have no problem taking the Lord supper in my own view because just because we have different opinions of what is actually happening in the Lord supper. It doesn't mean that you know that I don't think that we should be able to share together. It's kinda like reading the Bible. It's similar to that. It's like we read the same Bible and just because you disagree and what it means. It doesn't mean like I have to tell the other person know you can't read the Bible because your view doesn't agree with me.

We both read same Bible so I think if we partake of the same Lord supper, you know, we may have different views of what it means, but were still communing with each other with Christ is back as far as Sgt. Joseph yeah I just popped in my head to his eyes like man I feel exactly the same way as you Matthew violence if I was in the Lutheran Church.

I have no problem taking communion either because you know regardless of what our beliefs are only one thing is happening. I mean it's not like in a Catholic Church. It really is becoming the blood and flesh of Christ within Lutheranism was just a real presence. And you know it it changes depending on the denomination like that really is just one objective truth out there so you know, regardless of where I take it it's still doing the same thing. I've mentioned before that hold grudges against Michael for disagreeing but couldn't have been mentioned before that one of the things about the American restoration that has kinda been important to me is this idea that Christians only when Christians and an openness to seeking understanding and seeking unity with fellow believers, beyond denominational lines and obviously restoration churches are perfect split over musical instruments and various other things and of course there have been people restoration stridently anti-denominational� As part of the history but decided to work Christians, only Christians has been working through things and talking about sequence over the Lord supper. I think from a storable standpoint, it's interesting to those kind of wrestling.

Okay, now, now that we are kind to reform the Catholic Church and in some ways move beyond it. Now what right does the questions that are the kind of wrestling with what you believe about you believe about baptism and what goes on three of us are kind of doing something similar) come out of the C for were thinking through now.

What right with regards to these things and so hold grudges against Michael Buxton items all thank you for burying the hatchet have to moderate a fight for you next week. You know, we can plan for qualified him.

I just got the guns you have my hands full with younger Mormon Michael so I don't want to make any other enemies. So I'm not looking to pick a fight either. Just remember, if you like. If you're to pull like Mike Tyson you know event Holyfield and bite off your younger selves year, you know back in a future style for your future is great. So you're saying I can't hurt him, because anything I do to him hurts me so this is happened.

Was there covered his head in acid or something just tore it out okay burritos.

So what are your views now on. The ordinances begin to talk while we cannot currently mention it. Probably Artie said you're kind of wrestling through some passages still did you want talk more about baptism in Latter Day Saints here is that it's the gay places you on the path to eternal life is complete along that path just is fairly similar to the Roman Catholic view baptism is to the church's all sacraments that the church has to offer and what does what is baptism wired to wash baptized. What does does God work in baptism and if so what is the work that God doesn't baptism about like asked to writer Peter stretching to their hearts. Last commercial baptized question assumes so go so the question is baptism or something with regard to the remission of sins is baptism is that something that God does in terms of forgetting sins and applying the grace that Jesus merited on all of our house all believers to have us on the cross is that God applies to believer to believer in baptism. Acts two, six also touches on baptism. Therefore with him by baptism into death, and just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father went to my walking life is the questions is baptism time in which is born again or is that something that happens at a different time. So those questions are things are still wrestling through working to understand what God says about these things. I think a lot of a lot of theologies and positions of the various store Christian denominations are interesting, but I really do stick to 1006, when my foundation so right now, baptism is the time at which a person is time which God doesn't work justification believer firm that salvation is by grace alone is not doesn't come to because decide times it comes to because God works and God keeps his promises. And God is faithful and so I recognize that my little bit different than that LISTEN TO WHAT NOW QUESTIONS AFTER AFTER MONISM TO PROTESTANT CAESAR SACRAMENTS ARE BAPTISM SUPPER STARTS QUESTIONS ABOUT LIKE IS CONFIRMATION OF NEW TESTAMENT TEXTS STORE CHRISTIAN ROMAN CATHOLICS IN THE BOX.

BOTH TO CONFIRMATION OF A CHRISTIAN NATION CHRISTIAN CHURCH STARTED OUT WHAT WAS THE SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR THOSE RIGHTS AND INTERESTS IN SPACE. IN THE OLD TESTAMENT MORSEL RATHER THAN TO WASH HIM WANTING TEMPLE'S CHURCH OR TALK BACK TO WRITING SO ALSO BEST, SAME WAY SOON. JUSTIFICATION FOUND. BUT INTERESTINGLY IF YOU TALK WITH LATTER DAY SAINTS ABOUT THINGS OPEN UP WAS PROCESSED ONTO MY HANDS ON FOR THE HOLY GHOST NEW TESTAMENT PASSAGES LIKE ACCIDENT KNOX 19 BUT INTERESTINGLY THOSE INSTANCES GOING ON OF HANDS SEEMS TO TODAY RATHER THAN THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST SEEMS TO CONVEY SPECIAL SLIDE BLACK STUDENT TONGS WILL TOUCH ON THOSE LATER SUPPRESSANTS FOR THIS IDEA OF CONFIRMATION FOR RECEPTION OF THE HOLY GHOST SO I DON'T THAT'S A GREAT POINT BECAUSE HIM EXCITING I THINK IS THE ONE WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE BAPTIZED ONTO JOHN'S BAPTISM, PAUL TEACHES THEM AND THEY BAPTIZES THEM AND THEN LAYS HANDS ON THEM AND THEY YEAH IT'S LIKE YOU SAID. I ALSO UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN THAT THAT THEY WERE GIVEN MANY OF THOSE WERE CONVERTED AT A TIME WHEN IT SAYS THAT THEY RECEIVED THE SPIRIT.

A LOT OF TIMES I MET THAT THEY RECEIVED TONGS ARE PROPHESYING THAT KIND OF THING AND IT WAS GOD'S WORD DEMONSTRATION THAT HE WAS WAS WITH THEM BEFORE THAT HE WAS VOUCHING FOR SANCTIONING THE SANCTIONING NETWORKS THEY GOT TO SANCTIONING THE CONVERSION OF THIS PERSON YOU KNOW AND THEN WE SEE WE SEE EVEN GENTILES SPEAKING IN TONGUES BEFORE THERE EVEN BAPTIZED SO I THINK I THINK WE USE IS A LOT IN THE LDS IN THE DISCUSSION FORMS BECAUSE IT SAYS HOUCK, WHY, WHY DO THESE PEOPLE RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BEFORE THERE EVEN BAPTIZED. SO WHEN WE SEE TO GENTILES RECEIVING THE SPIRIT AND SPEAKING IN TONGUES AND BEFORE THEIR WATER BAPTISM, AND THEN IT'S ASKED. WELL, WHAT IS PREVENTING THEM FROM BEING BAPTIZED IS ANOTHER BAPTIZED SO YEAH I DON'T THINK IT HAS TO GO IN THAT ORDER. WATER BAPTISM CONFIRMATION TO RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED THEM BEFORE THEIR BAPTIZED BUT I THINK THAT'S THAT'S ACCURATE. NEXT SENTENCE AS SOON AS PAUL LAID HIS HANDS ON THEM, THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME ON SPEAKING TERMS AND PROPHESYING SO IT SPECIFICALLY POINTS OUT THAT WHAT SYMPTOMS SPECIAL MINISTRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT NOT THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS PROMISED TO WIENERS ACTS OR ACTS AS EXPLAINED TO A LOT. SIMON SINCE THE APOSTLES AND SHE ASKED FOR THAT POWER STATIONS ASKED FOR THE PRIESTHOOD POWER WHAT WHAT WAS ASKED FOR WRITERS NONSTUDENTS TO EXPLICITLY LOG OUT LIKE ASKED 19 SOON.

SHE MUST'VE SEEN SOMETHING SIMILAR LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HAVING HANDS LAID ON SPEAKING IN TONGUES OR HAVE SOME OTHER PROPHESYING SOME OTHER GRADUALIST MANIFESTATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT WOULD MAKE HIM WANT TO HAVE THAT POWER WAS. IT WAS JUST some guys laid hands on other people, something that happened that made him say what want that right so accident yesterday.

I think for it to fit. The eldest paradigm you have to fill in the gaps with something that the text doesn't say if you just go with what the text says it doesn't say, well, they were all ordained to the Keswick priesthood, which is what you need in order to perform baptism and confirmation etc. etc. but the cats fill in the gaps because that's what they're taught that severity. Believe you Michael yeah well I'll say he's absolutely right that you know baptism is is mentioned very strongly all through the Scriptures, mostly about that exact same passage to where it appears as repent and be baptized every one of you not just that but it's part of the great commission. You know, go out and and you know baptized all nations in the name of the father the son and Holy Ghost.

You know, Mark 1616 and is baptized shall be saved. But even that we would not shall be damned. I remember having a discussion with a guy named Craig Hayes and he teaches at Bayreuth University and no in California and he's kinda saying like, hey, you know, never mentions people who believe in art baptizes and his reasoning was that if you are a believer you will get baptized. Still kinda saying that people who believe in and don't get baptized like you don't exist kind of was his. His logic there. That's given me a lot of a lot of positive another thing that we talk about a lot in the forms is because of all the time right the thief on the cross. Well the thief on the cross wasn't baptized but ill cry still told him that he would be with him in paradise and a member on my mission. I got into this debate with like seven evangelicals at the same time and they brought that up to me like okay I get it.

You know the thief on the cross didn't have time to get baptized but you know say, hypothetically you get saved today and then Christ comes back in 10 years and you haven't been baptized. Are you still going to be saved and they all hesitated for a minute. They said yes, we would still be saved. So I'm on the fence with a lot of the stuff to still trying to wrap my mind around all of it because only Christ did did tell us to get baptized to baptize all nations, and that's the struggle with saying that it's just symbolic is. It's like if it's just symbolic than it doesn't need to be done but it seems that there is quite an emphasis on it so you I do get a little bit hesitant or squeamish when you know I care about somebody who's a believer, but you only been a believer for 10 years and they haven't been baptized and maybe you guys feel the same way or out of fungus out in left field on that now.

I do Flickr mixing does make me question her salvation, but a mixed one asked him why you know I want to know how to have doubts and questions why they they don't know. Baptism is is important that Michael just casually drop creditors look at that sometimes your liaison around the Mikey I know Paul learned Bergen looking forward to recording a podcast like two years from now on you like yeah so you know after Kanye got off stage.

You know, I give my my presentation of those I met Craig Hayes on my mission because some of our investigators brought us over to his house so that we could get destroyed in the debate. So this is good times now I won that debate. Just kidding. It was it was a rough one with no address for that's interesting that you brought that up actually come derailment Transvaal it's it's interesting to talk about. Why would someone reject the ordinances letting out something you could even dive into really deeply. Maybe I don't. Maybe I should mention I am on the podcast might trigger some people are something but you know when I was first leaving Mormonism and trying to figure out where I supposed to go.

I watched a lot of Sean McCranie and so that was me being triggered. I well it's been a dramatic yeah as I you okay Jimmy like a breathalyzer oxygen tank or CPR something I think I'm okay now yet was closer so my life flash before my eyes said that when Vanessa breathalyzer and likely will either say that design is not just because like I was reading and watching lots of different stuff, you know, try to get ideas and he kind of felt like his view is like baptism. As you know it's good but you don't have to have it so you know you don't really need that he didn't really make it seem that important and intimate as time went on I colored why he feels that way because he is a hyper preaddressed meeting all the prophecies in Scripture were fulfilled in A.D. 70, so there's no visible church.

There's no elders or deacons.

You know, there's technically no official baptism, Lord's supper and all that's done with. Pretty much, so that's you know and and I and I think historically the church is kind of viewed hyper predators in the something that does separate people from the Orthodox faith because it denies Christ's physical return to the earth, and physical resurrection. They believe that there is no physical resurrection, and I think that's beyond the line so that's why if someone were to say why don't want to be baptized or I don't think we need to be baptized and I don't want to the asked him why because if they go into that camp. It's like okay you know, nice guy, but I know can claim a brother so yeah those interesting kind of, emitter know I mean it was when I became a believer and start going to church and mean it was really just right away. Maybe a week or two. I just felt so convicted in us like man I like you to be happy until I get into the waters of baptism.

I just wanted to do it so bad. So I agree and I want to know why somebody doesn't want to do it.

I mad at me interested in that when you're talking to your friend. I forget exactly who said that normally they were Christians or baptized was on again.

That was Elder Holland. I think Craig Hayes named outline the same name drop but yeah was going to mention. So before before I was baptized. I think I finished it before I was baptized. Maybe not. Maybe shortly after, but my pastors give me a book. It's called life in the father's house. A member's guide to the local church and it's written by one or four Baptist and one presbyterian. So it's pretty cool because like I said before Baptist and Presbyterian share a lot of theology, but we do different somethings, but it's a really great book.

I really recommend it with a reformed or not. It talks about the importance of the visible church, going to church being united to a body being have your name on the church roles in a church somewhere. You know, not just casually going church to church to church. It's good for you. It's important for you and for the pastors because the pastors are the pastors the day watch over flock and if they don't know the flock is how it is supposed to lead them how this was to protect them and nurture their spiritual growth. So that's why they really advocated for coming a member of the local church and I think that's really important, but they also mentioned that the ordinances are just so important and you do read the Scriptures. There is validity to that to this idea that there are no really examples. Other than that the thief on the cross of Christians who did not submit to baptism, and in Scripture. I Think a one off top my head. It's so linked when you when you see the conversion process you see the word being preached. You see people being ill convicted there any other show signs of repentance.

They exercise faith in Christ there baptized in the joint to a local body of believers. You know it's like it's all contained. You can have one part without the other is less. Why think I think that is really is essential me not essential to your eternal life in the sense of without exclusion. If you baptize, you can't go to heaven. I'm not saying that but I think it really is important for your spiritual growth and I think normally there is no salvation outside the church, in the sense that it's extenuating circumstances.

Normally, that should allow for someone to not be baptized, to not be part of the local church.

You know to become like a Christian on the outskirts that isn't connected to a body. I think that is in extenuating circumstances, but the normal means of of remaining olive of Christian life is in the church. So it's like cutting yourself off from the vine.

If you're not baptize, if not in the church if not active fellow shipping so I think normally I just sure that you, you do need to be part of the church, but again like their extending circumstances and even Lutherans to say that baptism is necessary for salvation. Don't say it's not absolutely necessary, meaning that you can be saved. You can be regenerated after faith through faith alone. You can be justified, but you know this is necessary meeting like it so important. If you have a chance. You gotta do it. I agree with that and I and I and my personally I believe that there is debate as to who can give the ordinances we might talk more about that later of priesthood bugs quickly mention sinker things three. Paul is kind of the other kind of doubting the apostles authority another Trent there listening to other people who were claimed to be super apostles. So we casted like reassert his authority and say what what else do I need to prove to you that I know that I have authority to need to give you letters of recommendation, etc. etc. so then he says in verse four of section contains three such as the confidence that we have to Christ or God.

Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who is made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit, though I think there's passages like that to indicate that baptism normally in a normal church setting should be given by elders or pastors about deacons. I'm not sure how that works in their exactly, but normally elders and pastors, but of course like missionary circumstances, that's a different thing, I think, but normally that's reserved for elders because they are also ministers of the new covenant that I believe that elders do have authority now. It's not absolute authority on the can't rule with an iron fist. There always submitting to the word of God and if they go against the word of God. You know they basically lose that authority but we do believe that there is authority in the office of of elder or pastor but yeah when it comes to the efficacy of baptism. Yeah, I definitely don't think it's merely symbolic and there are several passages. Interestingly enough, that speaking with Lutherans account made me the kind of grew that that that sentiment even stronger and you are dimension Romans six, Paul also mentioned first Peter three because that's a passage that they often they often show and say why don't you believe that baptism saves you. So this passage is really difficult understand Peter is like like one of those genius guys on some other level and even the greatest Greek scholars really struggled understood to keep tracking to understand what Peter is saying because he goes he cow jumped around a lot and he makes connections.

It's hard to really follow him a little bit. So this is why most contested passages such Maria quickly signed in verse 18 and first Peter three for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey when God's patients waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water so I might go against spirits. Prison will talk about that later temples. But here's the part that's really important. Verse 21 baptism which corresponds to this speaking of Noah being saved to the water baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with Angels, authorities and powers having been subject to him so Lutherans really pushes passages say baptism saves you justifies you it regenerates you all that. So they believe that in baptism, it does give the gift of faith to infants to get the grant some salvation generation justification, and as long as they continue in the faith and exercise faith in Christ. They will keep that salvation.

But if they died of faith they will lose that salvation.

I don't believe that that baptism itself conveys salvation what it says here is baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you so there is a like an active current tense here.

It now saves you so I don't think it's saying oh it justifies you in terms of a one time event in the past you know we we can speak of salvation in terms of past tense where God saved us, justified us where he saves us all, signifies us and grows us in faith and will save us meaning when were glorified will be completely saved from be completely taken from the effects of sin. So will be the sin nature will be gone will have no more sins will be completely purified and glorified with but the Lord so this is it now saves you when I read that I thought about it, it means that to me. Baptism is a one-time event but I think it still does. This continual process that does something to you continually. What is it do it says not as a removal of dirt from the body. So sockets literally physically washing the dirt off of you. But as an appeal to God for good conscience and appeal to God for good conscience, so it's appealing to God of something that's in us. I think it's appealing to God of the fact that we have been justified that we exercise faith in Christ that were born again so I think what it's saying is he's telling his believer even baptize. This is an appeal to God that you been washing all your clean by the Holy Spirit. So I think the baptism does continue throughout the life of the believer to sanctify them throughout time and performed often talk about the sacraments and the word in the preaching and in fasting and prayer, and all that is means of grace and these are all means whereby there benefits of redemption are applied to the believer. So there's different aspects of it. Like I said, justification, regeneration, baptism as far as baptismal regeneration. I don't think I don't believe a baptismal regeneration.

I believe that regeneration is completely the monitor just a quirk of God meaning it's unilateral that's another big word only think of something smaller. It's work that's a work of God alone in the heart of someone he has to change your heart first before you can believe, so it precedes faith in Christ and this is because of the view of Scripture where men are born corrupt or born in sin were born rebellious against God. So before we can even believe something a stab into his first to want to believe to be able to believe, so God has to regenerate us first and then we can exercise faith so and also as a Baptist is a reformed Baptist, I believe that baptism is not suitable for someone who has not exercised faith yet Presbyterians they have their covenant theology that believes that you should baptize infants because they are in the new covenant community as children of believers.

They don't believe that that imparts salvation to the child it crap. It's a sign of salvation, but it doesn't mean they necessarily have what that sign signifies, whereas with reformed Baptist, we see the new covenant as including only believers based on Hebrews 8 says that the law will be written on their hearts. They will know God, you know you won't have to touch say to your neighbor know the Lord because all will know the Lord. So they will all know the Lord saw the vaguely they have remission of sins, and these are signs that this is a believer.

The different between the old covenant and a new covenant old covenant had a mixture of believers and nonbelievers. New covenant believers only, so that's why we believe that that's boiling it down. Very roughly, but that's what we believe that baptism and the Lord's supper for believers only, there's always good to be a false believer. Of course, so once you discover some of the false believer in their partaking of the ordinances were sacraments. Everyone: when the partaking of those defective meaning that their partaking of them, but they don't have right to these de jure meaning they don't have the right to these ordinances, but their partaking of them. Once you discover a false believers partaking of them on rightfully.

That's when they should be called repentance are thrown out of the church if that makes sense.

So ideally only new new covenant believers with particular ordinances, but we know in reality things get messy and that's not really how works out about we try to preserve as much as possible when much more detail. I should have but but I think of these pastors like first Peter 321 I think it's important because we have to deal with this.

What is it mean that is now saves you. I don't think it regenerates you, but I do think it sanctifies you think I also want to really mention what is changed experientially and partaking of the sacraments or ordinances of your Christian churches versus how you experience them in the LDS church that you would like to share.

For example, are they administered differently. Is there a difference in how you prepared for baptism and continue to prepare to receive the Lord's supper or communion. How often are they served. What is the atmosphere frame of mind the matter of how they are distributed etc. in your churches. So yeah I made it was section is a giant change from being latter-day St. because the awning baptism, first of all, there was nowhere near the amount of preparation. I mean, for instance, in the Mormon church had to wait eight years to turn a certain age to be able to get baptized in. You know, since I became Christian I mean they were okay with me baptized as soon as I confess Christ, you know, the wish of the meeting with me that the bishop or pastor meeting with me after Canada going through some some lessons with me. But you know me, I guess. Understanding all the particulars wasn't a prerequisite to me getting baptize yell faith in Christ was the prerequisite and it was so different because you know the whole congregation was there watching me get baptized in and they had me just give a little, you know like talk to the audience for a minute before I got baptized seasons. I'll go quite different and there's a drum roll when they baptized me because I was going to know one of those churches with the band initially and yeah maybe just basically had me sit in a vat of water and then there like you do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

And I'm like yes and then they just put me under was no pretty straightforward, to the point and simple when it came to taking communion. It was definitely done a lot less. I think he was about once a month, saying it wasn't during the normal service it would typically be in the evening like first Wednesday night.

You know they would do the Lord's supper than an thought it was really interesting that you know instead of it being passed to us. We would go up to a table in and get our crack are cracker and grape juice, and then it can just change the thing on the church I was going to do as well because we visited quite a few but there was one when they did pass it penetrated me, but then I was thinking of what I actually do like this as well, but I think anybody mentioned it earlier, but there's definitely a difference in how he viewed both of those things because on the LDS church being baptized is a making a covenant with God.

I'm making a bunch of promises that you know I'm not going to be able to keep and then I'm going to be extra condemned because they sin against the greater lights, but in Christianity was a public announcement that I was making that I had accepted Christ and I give them my life and in seeming with communion unite used to be a big big guilt thing for me.

You know like my really worthy enough to take this or it will be the opposite effect and be taking communion, sitting there thinking that I'm so righteous you know I definitely have earned the right to take this communion now.

It's not about earning anything, so it is a symbol that Christ is done for me while I was still a sinner, something that I am not worthy of, and yet I'm able to take it because it is just as a symbol of the gospel. I think that's all I really have to say about it.

Now that's great IQ so valuable to assess several things touch on here talk little bit about how I kind of like an essay that I wrote was a little too joint Northwest Center for some lessons when I was a kid going back and left my dad and going to the sauna and I went talk about the saw and likening snow myopia stops to join the club's and will soon join the club because I was talking about sauna towel wrapped around I want to clarify my father so it was a similar one. I went to the tabernacle to get baptized as children start writing because right, but most letters whenever their state is having better baptism and skill and bunch of other since returned since this kind arbitrary.

Of course, will you talk to the Bishop asked questions is considered a sort of like a professional for this incidences ritual and go through and I think a lot of kids just write it without really thinking too much about why they're doing it might as you mentioned in our interim night talking about baptism to your parents and asking if there was something that was because it really was just joining the club. All the kids in my class from school so as as a Christian coming out of this church is thought to delay baptized again because even though it was like joining a club and give much thought as I grew older the LDS church course back on it, like all that's that's when I decided to follow Jesus talk to my pastor for five months after we started attending church better and have a conversation with him about baptism and asked if I'd been baptized before and was a father the son and the Holy Ghost.

It was after that that model is kind of is the time when I began following Christ is other pastors were not excessively. Your heart and I would certainly recommend new baptized and I thought about that for a while, normally from the school. I don't have to baptized this this church recognizes Dr. so that's pretty cool.

But as I thought about it night and I studied more Bible and realized that as a letter saying my life. I wasn't worshiping the same God that I was now and I certainly wasn't worshiping Jesus when I was now so I realize I had a different view of God that I have is a letter sent and that really want to that drastically different view of salvation and how salvation is a work of God and realizing that God brought me to that point completely.

By his grace, and it's not that I have done and really want to see true baptism.

So this couple months after Ms. started attending the Christian church that I baptized my son on this really will they allow me to baptize my son. I know I'm not a pastor, and I don't have authority still learning a lot about Christian views of authority baptized so surprised when I emailed our pastor is know my son I would like to baptized my ass and sometimes my son will baptize you baptize your son was at work just doesn't compute in my mind as well.

This priesthood so it's kind of cool thing to do so. Tyler know baptized when I was LDS course addresses on those white jumpsuits church that is attending head was going to transition pastors and lots of changes taking place in the first few years and tired baptism was one of them said they had white robes put on salute when my son and I were baptized like a few months later changed to when a short sentence T-shirt was forgiven cool T-shirt that I was liking like I can screw the true story teacher, but it is interesting like the tire was an important letter sent the big deal about the white ball of lifeless wash so there just wasn't emphasis placed on tire. It's interesting to see women baptizing other women and girls, which I really like to sing because a lot of times it's as full for like there's a woman who has discipled another woman, and the gospel and to baptize her friend shoes discipled a conical it's coming.

Okay see you later, Dr. Joe's good old grudges sums can talk until it goes. The solar archers will hold like a baptism Sunday which haven't been baptized throughout the rest of the and have been thinking about it first. For several weeks ahead of time will announce the absent centers, something that you want to know something that God is leaning into now is a good time to do it. This is just like Sunday service is baptism's sermon is usually shorter than done.

Just close baptize almost on the sender's church for years and have been wrestling with shiny baptized going to become a follower of Jesus in the cool thing and Michael Lynch elected baptized drums best part of baptism Sunday was kind of like really cool because the celebration right. It almost feels like you're celebrating with heaven for these people rejoicing and clapping his closeness to say I was experientially fast that for me has been the biggest difference is that baptism is a celebration celebration of life is so celebration of what Jesus is Don and accomplished great work of salvation's church) that is treated as a celebration. I know I'll allow for Michael's ostentatious but this is some slick celebration surprises like worship something to fix transient differences in message by now. I know when worship leader depending is usually like soft music playing just on acoustic guitar for Cano's past is passed by men and women in small squares and full of hard unleavened bread versus the story about this church is water and also it's also time celebration. Member Strattera was felt like I had to elect put on a statistical there's never a week where I didn't do something wrong sit there and think about. I messed up royally. This is not a message as part of experience now, but it's not. I don't have the feeling of just merely on perfect status since time of repentance is also a time of worship and printers to my Lord for what he's done for me this is a different experience than us talk about the first Christian church and wept totally resident there is typing something with chat on no okay that's a little catching Henry while you pay attention that we can go for another hour. I think he may cross the line the night Sabia last broadcast will have to find another Michael.

The replaceable is there's a lot of Michael's is a very popular name, but there are burning Michael's is even a store called Michael's. We just go there pick one up. True, that's where I came from Michael's. She's just like managing a husband, so she went to Michelson okay I'll be quick so yeah you prefer for sure nice, it's really cool to hear your guys experiences it's it's interesting because were similar but not enough slightly to similar but not too dissimilar in our experiences for me for my bat white jumpsuit or whatever. Basically I just wore black pants and just like gray shirt all great button up shirt but we have about a baptismal font in our church which is really nice so we they open that up and they were excited for the baptism.

Everyone was excited because I really just aren't that many baptisms in our church and it already been like at least two or three years since I had a baptism and it was someone who was the son of you know, one of the main families in our church so they hadn't had like a like up someone fresh just randomly off the street getting baptize for long time so they are really excited about that and I was excited to and I was worried it was interesting because preparing for baptism is worried that I would you know that because what I was baptized by immersion.

After I know professed faith in a lot stuff is a Mormon baby will feel special. As a Christian you know maybe don't feel like the same thing. So I was looking into it historically is like wonder if I could ask my pastor for like a special you know you know a special something something different to differentiate and like one thing if you go back in the early I think second or first or second centuries. There is a there is a historical case of people doing trying baptisms without what that is is basically dump somebody.

Basically, face first into water and you do it three times so they put them face first in the name of the father pull them back up in the name of the son pull them back up and then in the name of the Holy Spirit the poem back up so Scott like to emphasize the Trinity is interesting and I was like thinking the mission is the pastor that but I thought now really the simpler for symbolizing the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. You know that only happened once, so I'll stick and I'll stay with that even though Mormons can use that same symptom symbolism. But so is preparing for it and they wanted me to write a short testimonial.

Usually it's like couple minutes or something like that. But yeah, you're right Paul. They do, they do try baptism. They also do it by immersion to maybe not full immersion but at least dipping the babies in the font three times anyways. So I prepared my testimony for my baptism and it was a couple time. Users must be like to do five minutes but they said something like a special case. They had had a baptism for a while.

I had a really long testimony so minded it being like 10 to 20 minutes so we are standing in the font is on stage kind of thing so we were slightly elevated above the rest of the congregation and so I was reading up my testimony were standing in the water and like after about the 20th after 10, 15, 20 minutes of me reading my testimony. You know you start to get the know, the soggy feet you know they stick to absorb the water and you know I like him and passively freezing it out so I should finish up but not got a really good reaction from people are listening to testimony and it was really excellent times to praise God and thank him for what he done to me in my life and bring me out Mormonism and it it it it touched me emotionally and spiritually in everything just thinking back at all experiences that had you know failed engagements coming home from a mission envisioning myself being in the church with my life and feeling like a failure and wondering what to do with my life and then just having God just reach out and grab me and pulled me to him is really just is just awesome to think about my past experiences up to that point and something of note, there was interesting is usually the pastor asked several questions, a camera brought them you know dude do you renounce the devil always works, you know, do professed faith in Christ, things like that so you suggested all those and then he said normally what he does. He takes a handkerchief to cover your mouth and nose. When he put me under.

But he forgot it could muster right but he didn't realize that until he was arty starting to dunk me select basically my mouth a face and stuff are just open to water though, so I have got some prevent water my nose that was fun. I could tell he was kinda shocked right right as he was doing and he realized although I don't have it. Nose really beautiful service and it was it was on a Sunday so it was at the beginning of the day so we we have service that we ended that service short two to do the baptism and then we had lunch break is great. Just a fellowship of people in and after I was baptized in water. So I said for the congregation and pastor and lay hands on my head, but he kind of put his hand on my shoulder and then we bowed in prayer thanking God for for bringing you know bring me to him for joining me the church and then sold it in the ass to vote from the membership you not they would accept me to the church and that they voted unanimously. Yes. So then I was allowed to be a member of the church so just really special moment because I'd been preparing for literally years, like I think I I had been studying baptism, you know I'll try to go back and forth. I was reported to be a Presbyterian Church or Baptist Church. That study covenant theology and on the differences between Presbyterians, and Baptists. And like I cannot decision that wanted to stay in the report Baptist Church in 2017 round early summer is like right before I went to my internship said the pastor had like to learn and I like to join the church that I would be like maybe a couple months time. You know, waiting a few months of preparation and easy start off by saying you know it's going to be a while so I didn't know how long was he to be being over two years. I think so. I started meeting with my pastor.

We started going over the London Baptist confession. I read a lot.

We talk we I'd meet over my pastor's house for you know all those months we took breaks because of my internship and other reasons, so I felt like I was long as Pro is partially due to my internship so supply would've been probably more than a year preparation time anyways. It was it was worth it in the end of the baptized.

I was worried you know I had, at the last moment had these thoughts like this.

Thoughts of you guys mention you know you think about my worthy of this.

Maybe I have things I need to repent of. Maybe there's things that I would overcome yet that I need to repent of Courtney baptized that I just remembered that you know do I trust Christ and it's like, you know, obviously yes of course I put my faith in Christ I trust in my trust that he's my only righteousness before God that that his work on the cross is all I have to trust in for my salvation, and so no worry about what I'm good enough for our deserve baptism or to join the church.

It's really not.

The questions asked and says do do you put all your faith in Christ to save you. I think that's what we need to remember and so I just Remind myself that reading and preparing. It was really a wonderful event in the pastor thanked me and that he felt spiritually a five so was really grateful for that entire experience and I think that I try to think back my baptism a lot not as like the moment Rob say because I feel I go save when I put my trip faith in Christ. But I do look back on it, similar to how Lutherans do in the sense that there are promises that God gives to his people, and I think that baptism is kind of a way of just confirming that the God God promises that he will be our God and that he will you know he'll always be there for us and so is calico reconfirmation of that from when you're justified through faith, reconfirms an baptism in a sense. And so with overfilled doubts you know I will.

And maybe a Christian sometimes and I like that. I said I don't really doubt that much, but there are thoughts that come across my mind and I think know I trust in Christ you not been baptized into crisis, Roman 6000 and I trust in him alone so that he's my Savior and trust in him. And as far as the Lord's supper. It's similar to the LDS church where we have bread, there's there's there's people that have a gluten allergy so we have gluten-free bread so my favorite but you know I'm just excited to have the Lord separate all so we have a big loaf and then we we pray, and I just get so be blessed and then we distributed amongst the congregation.

The deacons usually pass at around deacons for LDS are wondering, deacons are not 12-year-olds in Christian churches. There usually adults so usually so so the adult deacons would pass around the that the bread and then we hold it in her hand until were done finishing the him and then we all consume the bread all at once, so I really like that because you know you really feel like it's a communal act like you're all fellow shipping together, all taking at the same time you're all rejoicing in Christ and in repentance is part of it. I think I quite like you mentioned Paul, but you know when I was old yes it was more just like going through a checklist of like all the sins I commit that we can like man was bad enough to keep Moreno from the sacrament, and you should I repent of that.

Or maybe I shouldn't take it this week or maybe I'll just wait a week or 296 because I think about yourself, know worrying about me and my sins and my good enough I do I deserve it but really is focusing on Christ and that's that's what we should be focusing on and we don't we all take why we take grape juice. I'm not a stickler about that, you know that doesn't bother me, and we do the same way we passed the cups around and we take it all together. After creasing him and it's really special experience to have that and to drink it together and to remember Christ's body and blood that he shot Freston and I guess of the reformed view is that we believe that sacramentally you're being rude not read your being united to the benefits of the body and blood of Christ, so his body is in heaven. He's at the right hand of God in on his throne, but when we're when we're partaking of the sacrament were being spiritually communing with Christ and all the benefits of his body and blood are also given to us. The author, sanctification, and strengthening our faith and it's just a wonderful experience to think that you know were it's not it's not just a past tense thing where Christ died on the cross and I to me. I'm just thinking back to what he did. It's thinking okay Christ is in my life right now. He's he's intervening in my life right now.

He's granting the grace he's giving me the strength I need to get through each and every day and he is conforming me more into his image and and you know we fluctuate always in our walk with Christ. But I think that these are means of grace that do strengthen us in the faith, website hosting, and maybe dessert second, maybe like a short thing a message to Latter Day Saints. Did you year you have messages wanted to leave with the listeners of the no Latter Day Saints or non-Latter Day Saints. And I think so. Just a quick sure quick experience and something I would never share or challenge and think about so shortly after we left the church I went down to Dallas to visit my brother's name was having his daughter christened. This is a different is different trips are going to Dallas to visit my brother. We attended church with churchwarden and they were taking the Lord's supper and then not having to mention the problem stubbornness. This was shortly after I left the LDS church and no I was sitting there with my mom and leg listening to the sermon time came to take Lord's supper and I will forward to take it and I remember my mom when I came back and sat down by her.

She was weeping and we talked about that afterwards. It was painful for her to see both of her sons of the Lutheran right wing is Latter Day Saints. She viewed that as not a valid expression of the Lord's supper and she told me it was very painful for her and I'm just now just ask Latter Day Saints. You know why. Why would that be a painful thing enough Latter Day Saints is really want to do. Recently, more so than prior generations of artisans, but if Latter Day Saints are wanting to be recognized as just another Christian denomination, why would it be painful for someone who left the lottery safer to take in the Lord's supper with other believers. Unless there are differences that are so serious that there is necessitating a break in communion and I would suggest that there are doctrinal differences between letters in faith and store Christianity that that are serious enough that necessary and therefore I understand why it was on why was painful for my mom and we talked about that but I think it's one of those situations that points out that there are major differences so/S is to consider that.

I think if it was as say anything. The latter day saints, it would just be too. I would just challenge you to take a deeper look at your self and your beliefs, especially with the saving ordinances in the covenants and knowing that God is a jealous God is there an imbalance in your life you I want you to ask yourself are the ordinances and the covenants that you are keeping and that you value are they covering up the grace of Jesus Christ and are they covering up the need that we have for for him as a person and in his saving grace. I think that's probably the biggest thing that just needs to really be considered. So that would be my challenge is also a great drama think if there's anything out why I always point whenever whenever I talk to Latter Day Saints. I try to I try to go over three topics whose God, who is Christ. What is the gospel and for me really convinced me that we don't need special priesthood look as a priest or to run a priest or whatever we don't need special ordinances or sacraments to gain access to Christ is the fact that just read Romans just Romans one through five so so clear. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. It was through his faith that God justified him in James two is not speaking of justification, the sense of being right with God. He sees he's criticizing those who claim to have faith but they have no works and such people have a false faith is not at your faith because true faith will always befall the good works so I would just recommend that you read this chapter is prayerfully and just think okay if I can be justified or declared righteous faith apart from works.

Do I need baptism, confirmation, temple ordinances, all that to the right with God, we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page. We would appreciate it if you give the page alike. We also have an outer brightness group on Facebook where you can join and interact with us and others.

As we discussed the podcast past episodes and suggestions for future episodes, etc. you can also send us an email at outer brightness@gmail.com Hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on Apple podcasts cast box Google podcasts pocket cast pod be specified in stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel and if you like it be shirts to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it if you like what you hear. Please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael.

The next apologist from water to wine.work blogs and sometimes upon that as well. Music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page. It Adams Road ministry.com. Stay bright and I will be in my