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February 28, 2021 5:45 pm
In this episode the sons of light discuss the ninth LDS article of faith and the concept of continuing revelation. This topic has a lot to unpack, branching out into topics related to additional scripture and canon and modern day prophets and apostles. We hope you enjoy this discussion.
The restored Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints where we go. Your mercy, because of this process made no fireflies welcome this episode of the other brightness podcasts this week were talking about the topic of topics when it comes to Mormonism continuing revelation that IW's article of faith states. We believe all that God has revealed all that he does now reveal.
We believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God. The concept that the heavens are open and God has more to say than what is in the Bible is foundational to Mormonism. Christians who believe in a close canon or that God is not revealing new tricks today are considered to be limiting God by latter-day Saints. Let's talk about this. So Matthew when you are LBS. How important was this concept of an open canon or continuing revelation is vital is absolutely vital to my faith was the reason why we are the true church, and everyone else's not if you took away continuing revelation or just another religion that's trying to interpret a set of books that have been given to us and trying to interpret the best way we can. But you know as I saw it. Look around at all the different Christian churches and their all trying to interpret the Bible. None of them can come to a perfect consensus. So it seems like you need some kind of authority to step in and say exactly what God wants us to know so yeah was credibly vital to my Michael you think you feel exactly the same way, the same words into my head. Vital. It was my vital organs is a latter-day St. to believe in continuing revelation close canon whenever I thought about that was actually a threat to my faith because a close canon undermined the book of Mormon doctrine covenants and appropriate price. If there is no revelation in the Scripture that we had obsolete and useless in our modern lives in an open canon is proof that God still loved us and was still willing to communicate the mysteries of the universe. Last I was definitely a big part of my my beliefs latter-day St., as you both know that's vital. Without it, the whole purpose of supposed restoration falls apart so yeah what would you think of Christians who did not believe in continuing revelation. Michael will worship the Bible. First of all they put so much emphasis on the Bible were rejecting God in a sense they were silly to accept the Bible but to reject the source from whence it came to be and that they were stuck in a two-dimensional worldview. Ultimately, I felt sorry for them because just using their logic, they would never have the faith to pray about the book of Mormon and discover that he stuck that way forever. Okay concept continue revelation wasn't just limited to the prophets and apostles of the LBS for you kind of unit is a personal right or privilege as well yeah I would say that I unit is something that every single latter-day St. could receive this revelation, they could receive it for the entire church but they could receive it for their families and for themselves.
And so it was just as vital for me to receive it for myself as it was for the apostles and the prophet to receive four church yeah I mean me. We look at this doctrine is so focused on receiving revelation at various levels for their stewardship. Whatever their stewardship is the calling. And so when we when I when eyes latter-day St. look to Christians and I thought that Christians as had pastors or who had ships or popes. I thought what what is the point of having these leaders if they're not receiving the will of God. When you you when you read on Scripture.
Whether it's the Bible and the book of Mormon. You see God working through prophets. That's what missionaries teach the go through the beginning to the end show God's always spoke of the prophet. So I set a representative on the earth to speak as well. So if you don't have that today and you obviously aren't following the Bible.
That's how I understood yeah I so I guess now let's crossover to talking about what we believe now is Christians, do you believe in continuing revelation now is a Christian. Michael say yes to this question. So no, in the sense that there's no new doctrine being revealed to us that is not already in the Bible, but I would say yes latter-day St. I believe in a living revelation of the revelation that we have right now is not some dead obsolete sure doesn't apply to us today, but it is living Scripture that applies to us just as much right now as it did when it was written and so it is just as vital now, even if it hasn't agree with my going there is an article that our friend Fred posted the other day where he says that the canon is not closed." And is actually an interesting article that I would recommend reading, but it what he was saying and I work on reverse can be a new Bible 2.0, now it was more just saying God is revealed that he's revealed and it's sufficient for us and God is still working through that revelation in us and for the church today and so it's it's not like were reading a history book of things that have happened in the past and well that was nice. God did some things in the past you know that's you know God is still working today. Maybe not in the same ways as he is always done in the past, but he is still working today still got a miracle which is one of the criticisms I had as latter-day St. this passage in the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants or talks about God is God of miracles is the same yesterday today and forever itself. God performed a miracle in the past he should perform a miracle today and I use that as latter-day St. to show a if you don't have a profit speaking new revelations today than you know that you don't have the same God of miracles, but we do see God still performing miracles today, one of which is regenerating an unbeliever a rebellious hater of God into a born-again child of God that loves God and seeks to follow God.
That's that's the miracle that we see every time someone comes to faith in Christ of God is still working today and he still using his word to do that, but he isn't giving us new passages of the Bible are new passages of Scripture on another words the cat.
The canon isn't officially close in the sense of we have a passage in the Bible says no more books after this done, talk about that.
I think later discussion, but in the sense of God having completed it finished and given it to the church. It it is complete.
Yeah yeah I agree Annette and Michael. I liked what you when you said about the word of God being living. It reminds me of this for 12 which says for the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit both joints and marrow, able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart so love the pastor because it does show that the word of God is living right is not is not a passive thing.
God is still active. Through his word to the church to the is the pastor say says to the piercing as far as you know, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit. I suspect this to my Matthews .6 it is still a miracle when God works salvation and a sinner's heart and so yeah love love what you both had to say there was little of that scripture to is to explore basically the word of God is not rust, it stays completely new all time. It's amazing about Scripture like so we know that the claim of the LDS church is that the world needs the continuing revelation of their profits and apostles writer number one when the proclamation to the world came out. I asked if you think about it, that's a pretty pretty bold statement. My working to make a proclamation from Salt Lake City to the world you think is does the world need continuing revelation now you want to take this verse so this is often a question latter-day Saints will ask us as Christians will say will why why can God speak today. Why can you give more.
Why are you expecting more and I think the question should be rephrased to ask them why are we not cherishing every single word that God is already given when we look at the Bible there's 66 books.
There is over 700,000 words over 40 inspired author. We have so much we are so we have an embarrassment of riches. We have such a wealth of knowledge that God is given us, and as latter-day St. we learned in a one year in Sunday school. We learn the New Testament. One year we learned Old Testament when you're going, nine, 10, 15 chapters at a time is no way you can understand everything is being said there is so much depth and riches and old and new Testaments and instead of asking why should we give more. We should be asking ourselves. Have I appreciated our thank God for what he's Artie given me. And if we can look at all the 700,000 words and say yeah that's what God said in the past but I want something more. It doesn't it's not good enough and I think that's an issue that we have in our hearts we we need to repent and realize that God has given us such a treasury of knowledge and wisdom and we need to really study that.
So no, I don't think we need more words added on. Yeah Michael you think really what Matthew said as well. A lot of times 30 Saints want to emphasize their quantity of Scripture, but they reject the quality of Scripture. By so doing, and you ask them you have you read the Bible in its entirety and most of the time they will say no and if they have done it recently and so what is the use of having the Scripture if you're not utilizing the Bible in the first place.
The only reason that we would need new revelation is the old revelation that we had was corrupted, which of course the LES say that it was so. The only reason we would need revelation is for one damage control or two, filling in gaps that were left with the original revelation and so basically what that leaves us with is that the Bible must've been corrupted incorrect incorrect or incomplete.
In other words, God would've given us this information in the original revelation. I don't believe that is possible. And even if it was is not a God that I have any interest in worshiping, so no I don't think I need to revelation you think about the article of faith in identical faith to be read at the beginning of the this episode and the claim is made that that latter-day Saints believe is she being God will reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God and in recently, their profits, Russell and Nelson has said that the restoration is ongoing. When you when you were latter-day say what did how did you view this this idea that God would reveal. Yet many great and important things about the kingdom of God that does seem to you like the restoration wasn't complete over you expecting from that phrase will jump in their I was looking forward to the new revelations that were going to come I didn't ever think that the restoration wasn't complete. I think I would've freaked out if I heard the prophet, saying those words to be important revelation of mine was expecting like new saving ordinances or anything like that.
I just thought they would be interesting tidbits. You know the talks about other tribes of Israel that wrote Scripture, and that those would come forth someday so expecting some new Scripture to show up would be 1/3 and fourth witness to the Bible, not really saying anything new but just being more says to validate my faith. But of course Scripture never showed up which was kind of pointing so that's not not important things. I guess I guess not. I guess I was, not as optimistic as I could've been yeah I didn't think he was going.
I'm a person also thought of restoration was done with. It's just that we need a representative of God on the earth to direct our affairs to warn us of potential new pitfalls or new sayings that the church could fall into those kind of more of directorial kind of management kind of position where God would speak to the prophet, and he would show us where we need to go for, and then leading up to the return of Christ. You know that role would become much more important to know instruct the sayings as to where to gather, you know how every church struck the world was supposed to operate whether there also is good at a Monday all manner whatever you want to meet asking how I saw it I wasn't expecting new books of Scripture. Although I would've liked new books of Scripture and in that I think a lot of latter-day Saints were also kind of wondering when the sealed portion of the book of Mormon would be revealed it. I think it's an ether where it talks about how there would become there would come a time when those things are be revealed to the church if unless it hasn't unless it is unrighteous or unworthy to receive those words or something like that and I know that there is a talk I think in the 70s or 80s for one of the general authorities really talked about this in he was anticipating the sealed portion to come, but it still hasn't come yet unless unless you think Christopher and Elka actually revealed a zone of you guys know about him, but he claims to be the reincarnation of Hiram Smith that he's published the sealed portion of the book of Mormon. That's another story. I've heard of them but he's also admitted to being a frog to kinda pull one over on people yeah yeah yes so yeah I mean II resume with a lot of what both of you said so far it's it's you. I remember being in my ward one time and and the guy who was at the time the cash taught gospel doctrine and think he was the ward mission leader as well.
The time I remember sitting in hearing him no go on and on and on about new Scripture and then the over over several years. He eventually left the church in left his family lives, a sad situation but yeah I'm in continuing revelation.
You know what I would say that is what what what more do we need is if you look at if you look at the arc of a biblical history right all of the Old Testament points forward to Christ in the New Testament is common explication of what it means that Christ came among us and and is now glorified. When you get to the book of Revelation and then what the future holds for those who are in Christ. So I would. I would just ask you what, what more is needed in terms of continuing revelation that we don't already have and then and kind of thinking back on on what the LDS church has to offer.
I would, I would argue that they're not offering anything necessary in my opinion, but in my opinion everything that they offer is just detracting from Christ in the first place.
Anything that they are offering is just going to be evidence that their church is true, so it's not pointing to Christ is pointing to the priest or one of their doctrines like the preexistence. You know, maybe they can add more details on intelligence and how spirit children are formed or something like that but it's not going to have anything to do with Christ. Because if it were Christ centered that it would just be undermining the church because you don't mean the church if Christ is now so if you're emphasizing Christ, then you are diminishing the need for the church and one of things I think I was when I was a member. I always look at the prophets and the apostles and said okay when they're on their watchtower got a better vantage point to warn us of the dangers ahead.
But the thing is, Christ is that you know they've taken his seat and you start his power and we don't need a man, those things if we have the spirit and we've already got you know we were shepherding, Christ watching over us so that's my thoughts wanted to get into second Timothy chapter 3. At some point I'm sure that'll come up, but yet when when I think Paul you're talking about how just the that, especially when chapter Hebrews chapter 1 so elegant that when you do, but just looking at that the whole scope of Scripture was pointing to Christ. It's it's all about Christ someone Christ and of God in his fullness was revealed in Christ that was of the fullness of his revelation and so there there still Scripture that came after his ministry, but it was all pointing backward to what he had done and and describing the works of God did in the early church.
So it's it's all focused on Christ like and of the reading of time. That's when the fullness of God's revelation came and that's what everything was leading up to was that moment Christ coming to her so when we have that white why do we need constantly new ideas, new thoughts know it's it's like is like when you know you ever watch a movie and you get to the climax and like all man. You know it's like you're finally yielded the stories wrapped up all the conflict is done with and have another hour and 1/2 of movie to go through and you're just like, but we we already reached the climax you know why I need to watch all this other stuff you know that's kind of what it feels like with LDS revelations like others is all this other stuff that it's not really that interesting compared to what you already read in a like a hobbit movie is sorry.
I would film fans, but those those now is terrible here.
I will have to hold off on that discussion. However, this contrast to walk with Jesus.
This national born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us of that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Basin teaching the name of our podcast brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without. Thus purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.
Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around so you think you know Latter Day Saints will often criticize Christians that don't believe in continuing revelation that they are limiting God. Is it possible to limit God.
Matthew anything yeah when you think about it that way.
It does sound like Christians are trying to put God in a box like you're telling God that he can't do this, that he can't talk again today that he can give us in Scripture.
And again, I think it requires rephrasing the question. Rephrasing how we think about it it's not about limiting God's it's about reading what God is said in understanding what he said and if he's if he's promised more revelation than okay. We should expect it. But as we mentioned before the revelation was all pointing towards Christ, and he was one will get into more detail really just focuses on how all the prophets were leading up to Christ know they were all looking forward to the day and pointing towards a day and so and with that with the Scripture. The New Testament it just it's like it just finishes that the story that God wanted to tell. And so it's like we're waiting for the next book to come out but God's already said you know it's it's a discussion I had with the missionary to the day he said well John wrote that if he could fill the whole book the whole earth with books about what Christ did. You could fill the entire earth, so when we want all those books like yeah sure, but you have to look at the whole narrative and likely set it's it's all narrative leading from creation to glory and when you read the New Testament in the end of Revelation. It's basically God stamp at the end saying the end it talks about the new heavens the new earth. All of creation being reconciled to God. You know, because were in a fallen state and even the creation groans because of the fall.
All that will be reconciled to God and all of God's people will be with him in glory. There's nothing really to add to that, it seems like God for like the narrative is just finished at that point. So what can we add to yesterday and we don't want to add what you said. Matthew you answer that really well.
I think I want to close with the thought that you brought up though about that diversity very end of John where it says all the books that could've been written had been written the whole world would not be able to and questions come to my mind is that many books on Christ. Would we be able to read them all and the answer is no. We wouldn't even if we did, how much would we be getting out of because it had to be reading it pretty quickly. I think really missing out on on the quality of those books. If we were to do that. So as far as limiting God. I think in our minds we can limit God in reality, no and learned just from writing my articles over the years is that the finished article.
Nothing on my gosh I need to go back and add the detail that I missed last time and try to find a place to put it in. There's nowhere to put it because there's also the flow of the article and by adding that sentence, you will destroy the flow of the writing that you're doing and so you have to leave now.
And because adding the detail actually messes up and so I have to realize you know that when God put together the Scriptures. Yes, there probably are more details he could've told us that he decided not to.
And I need to trust God that it was left out for reason that it's good the way that it is as if I say that we need more revelation that this isn't good enough that I'm basically saying God didn't know what he was doing when he put this together. What's interesting to do is a lot of the early Christians wanted to know more about Jesus you know they they will be thirsted for knowledge. And so that's what we see a lot of these apocryphal texts. You know what we always talk with the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, you know, Tobit, extracellular books, but there were a lot of apocryphal New Testament books to and what they try to do is they would see a gap you know there's really nothing we know about Jesus from when he was what 1213 until his ministry at around 30 and so you see, like the infancy Gospel of Thomas C know like the Gospel according to Jude is always other text that came much later after Christ, so they're not not authentic.
They were trying to fill in those gaps because they they saw an audience, they saw potential need they could fill in there. Try to fill in those those details but yeah exactly and cursing out. I think there is a specific reason why God didn't didn't reveal everything that happened in Christ's life as a reason for that. We have the books have because that's what we need for eternal life and and if we were to have all these extra side stories that could detract or distract from the core message of the Bible.
Yeah, that's good, but my thoughts on this. If I were to answer the question, directly to be a hard know it's not possible to limit God will explain what I mean by that. So if you think about someone who doesn't believe in God and rejects the Bible is that person limiting God in terms of what God could do in their lives. I would have to answer no God could bring themselves to salvation, and in many cases for individuals, such as that God does bring them to salvation. Eventually, so now I would say You can limit God with regards to accepting or not the additional books that the Latter Day Saints claim of Scripture is not limiting God to reject that either because Mike my position isn't that God couldn't speak. The question I think is has he spoken in these days did she speak to me if I prophets were plates trends knitted from profit to profit to keep the record and then eventually deposited for angel Moron. I too revealed to Joseph Smith question is did that happen.
It's not that I'm limiting God by saying I reject that because I don't think it's possible to limit God in the end, and the reason I take that position is does is gives the words of Jesus, you know, if you could limit God if I can limit God by rejecting the book of Mormon and limit God's ability to exalt me because I reject the book of Mormon and and and other LDS scripture that would be a mighty week God that we would be talking about and the words of Jesus. No one can come to me except the father draw him. That's pretty stark snow. One can come to me unless the father draw him so that to me says no you cannot limit God. God will do his way.
So next question. When God spoke in the past how to do so, did he always speak to a defined hierarchy among his people.
My quantity typos from first my pleasure.
So we do see in the Old Testament God speaking to profits quite a bit which I know that the LDS will latch on to you and say see, that proves that we need a profit today, but you also see God speaking to other people and some of them are Stevens Genesis chapter 20 verses 1 to 3, for example, God speaks to Abimelech after he takes Abraham's wife Sarah and says you are a dead man and Abimelech says well. He said that she was sister. I'm innocent you know he has a conversation with God and he's not profit, and then you also have Pharaoh. He's the one that received these visions, yes, just like interprets them, but they are given directly to Pharaoh who is a Stephen King and then it gets really interesting because God also speaks to women profit taxes and they receive revelation for all of Israel and that really destroys the hierarchy in the LDS church and is ironic to even say they got Hester's to hierarchy when they criticize us limiting God because we don't have more Scripture. But there the ones limiting God when they say he has to speak to a hierarchy and he can only give revelation to the father when it comes to the family as a whole set of rules that they have for how God will give revelation and that just doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to the Bible at all those points about God spoke to people who were prophets. That's a good point to make one when you look at the Bible so thanks for that Michael question teasing out agree to God to speak through many different people in many different ways. When we look at ancient Israel. As a people.
God did choose to primarily speak through chosen vessel, so he needed primarily choose to speak their profit. What we see that when Moses when he was called up to the amount he went there alone and God revealed from the law and etched on the stone with his own finger.
So I got revealed the 10 Commandments on the stone on the tablets yes with his own finger all the people of Israel were at the bottom of the mountain so they were waiting patiently anxiously for God's revelation and later he called 70 elders right are 72 elders I forget which number it is.
And Moses selected these men to God to give you a special blessing upon them to help them because he was a judge, where he was trying to judge all these cases, it was just too difficult for so he he was advised by his father-in-law right to choose these men amongst all of Israel. So then they were given a special blessing to to help them with these judgments so we do see people with special gifts of prophecy throughout time from among the people, but we see that changing. Once we get to the New Testament and I was just going to read a little bit from acts chapter 2 Joel. He prophesied that he prophesied in the future when it when just peace. Typically, although there are cracks in all exceptions. Typically, several prophets were chosen by God to represent and speak to the people there be a day when all of God's people would be prophets. So an acceptor to speak of the day of Pentecost and Spiros poured out, and God revealed these people spoke through towns and their speaking or prophesying different languages. It says this Peter taking his stand with the 11, raised his voice and declared to them. Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words were these men are not drunk once at the speaking in tongues as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day, but this is what was spoken of of through the prophet Joel and it shall be the last days, God says that I will pour forth my Spirit on all mankind and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy in your young men shall see visions in your old men shall dream dreams even on my bond slaves, both men and women. I will in those days pour forth of my Spirit and they shall prophesy, and I will grant wonders in the sky above and signed on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke. Some will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood for the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Men of Israel, listen to these words so basically Peter saying that this prophecy was speaking of that day when God proudest spirit in your prophesied all of them. So the gift of prophecy in the New Testament church was common amongst many of the church members.
It wasn't just just elders and deacons that had this ability or or even the apostles are people even among some that were prophesy, long explanations, I put up a no no no it's good.
Let me let me build on it so the LDS view has this concept that when Moses went up onto the mountain. Initially she received the higher law that the LDS policeman right so everything that Latter Day Saints kind of you as part of the gospel exultation plural marriage that all would've been part of what Moses initially received from God to give to Israel right and when he came down off of the mountain and saw them worshiping the Golden calf bust of the tablets from the initial higher law.
This is the obviously of course that that that the God-given end and went back up on the mountain and then God gave the lower law, the 10 Commandments right so if you if you think about that. What that means and end and LDS will lease at least back when I was still LDS in a little more than 10 years ago, you would still have lessons about this same priest of corn and MMB talk about how Israel was an apostasy from Moses until Jesus right and Jesus brings back all of the milk is the priesthood kind of on the LDS view will be. Think about that. There are a lot of profits in the Old Testament between Moses and Jesus. So how well what were those profits if you think about the LDS hierarchy prophets, apostles, first presidency. None of that would've been present in the Old Testament. And and and in fact would you do see in the Old Testament. It is prophets called from outside of of the what's the word I'm looking for. Of kind of the priesthood and Israel and to come and speak to the kings and call them to repentance sees the priest to call them to repentance is so nice it's it's not as clear-cut as the latter-day St. narrative tries to make it. And so when God spoke in the past.
She spoke as he chose to. So again, I would say you can limit God. He's going to do what he will do to bring about his purposes as he says he will do in the Bible are so here's the real question right. If God wanted to speak today. Could he does see and what does it look like Matthew wanted to take this verse. I'm reminded of Justin peters. He says if you want to hear God's voice, or if you want to read what God is spoken. Open your Bibles and read if you want to hear God's voice read your Bibles out loud.
I love that that's it. So yeah, I don't know there's different views amongst Christians as to whether people can have the gift of prophecy today, but I think that when we look at Scripture. It's as was mentioned before is sufficient for what we need. There is there's a really deep passage that we mentioned previously.
Second Timothy 316, 17, is all just I can briefly go over it. But a lot a lot of the court that Latter Day Saints will say, well, that doesn't mean that God will never reveal anything ever again or we can have new Scripture or this is only talk about the Old Testament but I think it's when when he writes when he stalked my Scripture, Paul's not limiting it just to the Old Testament.
He's speaking broadly of all of the inspired Scripture and week and I'll let we could go into passages where the writers of the New Testament knew they were writing Scripture Peter talks about how are you happier talk about how the writings of Paul were being twisted enough to their own destruction and that these writings are difficult understrength understand that these are being twisted as our as or as a twist. The other Scriptures so he's comparing Paul's writings to Scripture, but in second Timothy three, Paul writes, sorry had the Greek up so early, so to bring Holly which transition use all Scripture is God breathed and beneficial for teaching. Sorry all Scripture is inspired by God or God breathed and beneficial for teaching for a Bucher correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable or complete RTO's is a Greek for that which means cannot be complete, equipped for every good work. It's only really just tear us apart and I look at what Scripture is is by nature is God breathed its inspired by God. They outpaced us.
It comes from goddesses of God breathed and of the words fell onto the pages and it's beneficial for her. Which what purposes. First, teaching second rebuke so calling someone out for their sin and calling them to repentance same spirit for correction to correct something on a path that may not be sinful, but may just be on the wrong wrong direction or for training in righteousness, so not just avoiding sin, but to be doing positive righteousness doing positively what God commands us to do, not just to avoid what we should not do and this is so that the man of God may be fully capable and equipped for every good work. Every good work.
So we think about that. Is there any good work that were not prepared for no is there is there anything that is missing or lacking says that were complete or fully capable. Basically's Scripture is inspired to complete us to to lead us down the path that God wants us to go if you really unwrap what the implications are for this passage is not just saying all Scripture is useful for these purposes, and it's nice and it's good it's saying that if we really fallen, understand and prayerfully apply God's word to our lives. It will lead us to exact become exactly the type support people that God wants us to be and there's nothing that's lacking from Scripture. And if we follow it perfectly, then we would be become perfectly what God wants us to be, but we saw that sin nature so we Achieve that perfectly this life, but there really is nothing that's lacking in God I forgot why I brought that up all why why we would need prophecy today so when we understand that when understand what God is saying in second Timothy three.
We could say well, God could give us new words for benefits other than knowing how to come one with Christ you know may be may be our church needs to start a new program or we need to help out a certain person in the church. Well I think God is given us principles in Scripture you know to help the needy to help the widows and in the foreigners and and to give as we should, and he's given us brains to know how to apply that week. We prayerfully asked the spirit to understand and to follow in the fall of the path to God is given for us, but I don't think we need to wait on bated breath every forgot to tell us exactly what to do every step you know is a great book, also called the final word. I forget the authors name but he is in the reformed tradition and he says if you think about it this way. Let's say there's a scenario where there's a man in the street and he needs help, you know I principle that if you can help, then you probably should help if you can that person the street so we need to prayerfully follow the moral teachings and principles in Scripture. But if was seen a second chance that you receive a direct word from God telling you you need to help that man now and you disobey that's going directly against God's will in your constraint, you have no choice in that circumstance. In the second case, you have to help the person is in the first case you are not constrained but you are encouraged or morally encouraged to help, but it would necessarily be sent to not help and there's not a specific way that you're supposed to help you. There could be many ways he could help him. There's kind of a freedom in the moral principles taught Scripture that were supposed of the fall, so there so there were not morally constrained to follow specific path is that makes sense to plot it my mission. I felt like all the time I got was currently receiving God's thoughts in God's like I should've talk to that person if I got us told me to talk the person I should've knocked on the door but I didn't sewing I was consciously disobeying God and going against what he was telling me to do that when we when we when we understand that the principles are taught Scripture and we just where to prayerfully follow him as best as possible were not constantly going against what God is spoken were just gorgeous striving to follow God's will prayerfully with the spirit as best we can know were not robots. God gives us some measure of freedom and liberty to to follow his will, to an extent, but when but for expecting forgot to tells exactly what to do, then there's no freedom that we have to follow exactly told Silas but a lot of my own on-ramp. I love it. It was good.
Like we said about the there's, moral freedom in the commands that are given to us. Michael in the playoff very kind of a curveball. The question I okay so Latter Day Saints will often try to bolster the need for continuing revelation in particular from their profits by saying that the world is different now the Bible times, we have different concerns, different challenges, what, how would you answer that that challenge that that says we need continuing revelation because there's new stuff that we have to deal with is the first thing I would say is did God was God not aware of the challenges that we would be facing in the future when he talked about the last days in relation because it seems to me like he didn't know exactly what was going to be happening until the very and when the second coming is going to occur in the Scriptures to cover that and it ultimately what moral dilemma. Do we have right now that is answered in the Scriptures you know you we have new problems.
Sure it's a new pretty packaging packaging. It's the same moral dilemmas that, in the same sins that we've struggled with is humans since the dawn of time. It's really nothing new.
So I don't think that's a good reason to say that you need new revelation and finally what I would probably say to you is you know where it is addressed these problems we have now in the book of Mormon, or the doctrine and covenants because by their standard. Those books are now obsolete. So do we just throw those away if what you're saying so is a double-edged sword, but they're playing Jefferson remember the challenges they face versus their prophets and apostles. Some of the guidance that they have given over the years has proven to be harmful to their people. Painful to African-Americans. For example, so you know it's not like they've been very effective at providing guidance that is tailor-made for our day. Then, behind the curve on that just ended at 219 and I like and so there you see seen pictures of Pres. Nelson wearing a mask and getting the vaccines. But what have they told their people is any different from what the government is been telling everybody so there's they're not doing anything special or above and beyond what the government they been preparing for all those months of those vitamins. Michael Moore pressed to see them evoke the priesthood and take care of the problem with me. That's what the biblical prophets would've done Moses separated the Red Sea Eliza because it stopped raining, you know, there's always miracles that they don and I'm still waiting to see something like that from the claimant prophets today are so smooth on the some of the some of the Scriptures that come into play from the Bible when you have this conversation are continuing revelation Latter Day Saints so used to do very common to see Christians and Mormons argue over whether or not Deuteronomy 42 1232 and Revelation 2218 indicate that the Bible is the complete word of God.
So maybe we just read those real quick Deuteronomy for two says you shall not add to the word which I am commanding you more take away from it. You may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you, and then Deuteronomy 1232 says whatever I command you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to or take away from it. And finally, Revelation 2218 states.
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues, which are written in this book and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book so this is this a good argument to use with Latter Day Saints wire why not Michael. You say is this a good argument to use a saying to use Revelation 2218 saying that nothing should have been added to the it is not a good argument to use a latter-day St. effective habits used as a latter-day St., and I will immediately go to the verses in Deuteronomy and stable. According to your logic. Everything after Deuteronomy is damning to those who wrote it because they are supposed to add to the prophecy and so we can use that these passages are talking about that book of Scripture itself and not everything that was written after it. So I will use that in that way with a Latter Day Saints. Now there is a way that you can use it. I would go a different route so if those revelations were not to be added to. Then we can presume that they were given accurately and they were preserved and if that is the case, then that must also be true of other Revelation as well. And there's no need to add or take away from any of it nestling into dangerous things like this out today because I wasn't Highlander with the Joseph Smith translation is in these passages and there's actually Joseph Smith translation done in Deuteronomy and in the book of Revelation, because were aware that Deuteronomy 10 to the Joseph Smith translation. It's as though the same words on the first tablets that you broke except the words of the everlasting covenant of the holy priesthood so they put in this LDS doctrine into the Joseph Smith translation comes to the book of Revelation.
I did read through all of them but several chapters of Revelation were changing the chosen translations.
They got Revelation 125, 12 and 19.
There is a lot of changing of what that revelations that which you just read in Revelation means that is in a lot of trouble and stop and have my book the translation of the Bible socialistic in those verses you and I should check that before. That's great that Michael yeah I agree that we really shouldn't use those there and there in the context of the words were given to them in I think Moses was giving the words the law to Israel.
So St. don't add to or take away from this law and an revelations document the revelation given to John so yeah, I really don't think that's an argument Michael said you think he's on the something with my flip and it is ardent to to say no that proves that the revelation was given accurately and has been preserved.
I missed I missed out exactly in the sense that Peter Peter I am missing the connection here. I'm paraphrasing a mug of camping yet so what I set out to repeated last time, but I think what I was trying to say was that if those passages God said you not add or take away from this word, you know that it was given perfectly information to add or take away from it, but we weren't supposed to touch it and if that is the case with Revelation, Deuteronomy than that is likely the case with all the other Scripture as well that it was given accurately and that we shouldn't be touching it right yeah yeah I agree that on me that's in particular are think specifically speaking to John yeah I would I would say that that also applies to the rest of Scripture done there's and there's a lot you could talk about textual criticism because that's a whole another issue that we could talk about but really I don't think what when it when it comes to what God is spoken. That's what we should be concerned about nine I think Latter Day Saints they think about that a lot. You know well what about the Bible is been corrupted over time and in the point to changes in the manuscript have been copied over time and I don't think it was in all instances where there were words are added by copy of something that was deliberate. Typically will happen was if there is a note in the margin wanted to be careful and make sure they didn't forget anything. They would include the marginal notes sometimes and so then I would be added into the next copy but due to textile criticism, we can we can weed out a lot of those additions over time so were really blessed by God to have all this manuscript tradition that we can use to to weed out, so to speak that the accidents that copyists made over time.
So I think God has preserved his word and we can trust what God is given us her. So what about Hebrews 112, then, does that passage indicate a closed Canon I'll read it says God, after he spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world so this is using Hebrews 11 to 2 a good argument for close Canon method rethink and I don't think it's necessarily saying here that know you're not can you give were now going to receive any more Revelation in the timeline where Hebrews shows up.
I know it's not the last book written but it's it's one of the later books written so we know that there were books written after Hebrews so is not saying well. Prophets are done with when I can receive any more Revelation it's it's more speaking about the role of the Old Testament prophet prophesying to the future of Christ, and so I think Jesus himself said that John was the last of these kind of profits. There were prophets in the New Testament, but they serve kind of a different purpose where they were. They weren't foretelling of the Christ combats more forth telling God's will and God's word to yeah this is a little bit. It's a bit of a nuanced passage because it's it's not especially stating there would be no more Scripture.
But it's kind of like we talked up before where all of the Bible is Christo centric says all focusing and centered on Christ so the narrative.
It's it's got this crescendo that's leading up to the birth of Christ and his ministry in his atoning work, and then everything written after that is kind of setting up the church giving directions as to how to leave the church and's and commenting back on what has been given the New Testament, so much on Old Testament. It refers to the Gospels as well.
And so it you can't really say that, definitively, that this thing no more Scripture be given but it's it's kind of's saying that Jesus is the final revelation of God. He sees the final end in the zenith of what God is revealing to mankind. So what happens after that writing this rivulet that is more of an epilogue kind of you talk about in terms of us react structure type of thing so yeah if you mix is amazing is a hopes of the make sense of absolute sentiment and then you know when you get to the Revelation, it opens with Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God the father gave to him to give to his bond servants right so you have Jesus as the final revelation and then you have the revelation of Jesus Christ of the future and the last days given to to the church so I think I think is a good argument to be made that the that the point of Hebrews is not necessarily code closed Canon but that is you said the revelation of Jesus Christ to the world in coming to save sinners as is the zenith of God's revelation is what everything was leading towards everything now looks back to Mike when you think about this.
Hebrews 11 the two passages he invented about a lot yeah I really like the way that Matthew put it, actually think that this will again I was singing about it kind of in terms of being an officer myself and how the Bible is a complete story in and of itself got the fall, which is the introduction got the history and the prophecies about Christ which is the rising action when you've got the ministry of Christ and his atonement, which is the climax and in the epistles and the acts, which is the following action and then revelation which is the conclusion it is a complete story in and of itself. There is nothing to add to whatsoever because it is a complete work and the second something else in there like the book of Mormon. You know to try to say that this is a sequel it's a really bad sequel. Basically, you look at the book of Mormon and how much of it is copy verbatim from the King James version Bible right this is new revelation, but then so much of it is just the exact same thing because there really isn't anything you can add to what was said before it's perfect, you compete with that. You can't come back here at Star Wars example, if we well I mean you look at the new trilogy the new Disney trilogy versus trilogy is basically taken the same markers the same stories right they switch up things here and there but you know like a lot of the same beats, same thing like you're saying that the book of Mormon.
It's like a lot of the same beats it all led up to Jesus visiting them.
You know, and it's talking about. No promises given to the believers. It's like it's like you could you could get it pinned down all the notes that I took from the original trilogy and the same thing with the book of Mormon.
It's like a lot of times artisans will say, well, could you write the book of Mormon and I'm like well I mean blown my mind destroyed the Jedi volumes you know like Joseph Smith the Bible's corrupt field and destroying the volumes all my goodness, except Ray save them before he could burn them so that's like Joseph Smith snatching the uncorrupted Bible from the horror of Babylon enough to preserve them for the rest are unaware of going with the analogy for you real quick with my ultimate you know and experience will Star Wars you know I thought that baby grow who was a young and I realize he wasn't. It's kind of like how I thought the book of Mormon was inspired Scripture. And it's not. It's nothing like that is a totally different animal different creature group to come on all right fireflies.
It's a wrap for this topic. Feel free to share your thoughts in the outer brightness group on Facebook. Is there an aspect of this topic. We missed something that you'd like us like to see us discuss in the future. Next week will be publishing a debate between Paul and Brett Dennis topic was is the book of Abraham ancient Scripture.
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