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The Debt Effect of Inflation

MoneyWise / Rob West and Steve Moore
The Truth Network Radio
August 29, 2022 5:30 pm

The Debt Effect of Inflation

MoneyWise / Rob West and Steve Moore

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August 29, 2022 5:30 pm

Inflation is bad enough for folks living on a budget who have some money to spare, but it’s devastating for those relying on credit cards to scrape by each month. On today's MoneyWise Live, Rob West will talk with Neile Simon about the effect inflation has on debt and what to do about it. Then Rob will answer your calls on various financial topics. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Robs the spending power of your hard-earned dollars were now seeing the consequences by Rob West. Inflation is bad enough for folks living on a budget with some money to spare. It's devastating for those relying on credit cards all talk about that in the best solution to the problem today with Millie Simon minutes on your calls at 800-525-7000 hundred 525-7000. This is moneywise live with wisdom for your financial decisions. Counselors and underwriter of this program merely welcome back great to have you. Thank you so much for having me on the show Rob. We always enjoyed and Millie.

You always bring good news about how to get out of debt but afraid working to start with some bad news today. So tell us just what's going on today, consumers are putting more purchases on credit cards and paying more to do it, were seen many clients ease to pay off their credit card debt every month are now carrying a balance month over month and with rising prices and inflation. It's really caused many Americans to fill suddenly cash-strapped and more dependent on the credit cards to make ends meet the Federal Reserve in New York just issued a report about credit card debt. In the second quarter of this year and it's surging as people struggle with inflation. Americans took on 46 billion in new credit card debt from April through June of this year. That's almost a 6% increase from the previous quarter and there was also a 13% jump in new credit card accounts. That's the biggest in 20 years so we have to ask ourselves what's happening here.

Inflation is higher than it's been in 40 years, which is now running around about 9%, and people are just not prepared we really need to adjust our budgets and be intentional with their spending, because there is no doubt that carrying a balance month over month is becoming more expensive and let me break that down for people to help you understand why the reason is that most credit cards have a variable rate so there is a direct connection to the Fed's benchmark. So as federal funding rates go up, so does the prime rate and credit card rates follow suit. I know even on my own credit card statements. In looking at it just in this past month they've gone up anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5% APR and I'm someone who doesn't carry a balance month over month so I can only imagine what's happening with other people and consumers out there we go. Well, Millie, as we know it. Folks were already living paycheck to paycheck. The effects of inflation or real obscene studies that say you will. Perhaps as much is $500 a month more for the average American family which meant somber spending even more than that, and that's obviously hitting them hard. I'm curious you mentioned a 13% increase in new credit card accounts in the second quarter.

Just how many is that while the number is staggering. Some 233 million new accounts were opened. While we haven't seen a number that high since 2008. I suppose there's one bright spot and that's that experts are saying that the delinquency rate for credit card debt is relatively low, but I think time will tell. Total credit card debt has jumped up 100 billion in the second quarter to reach a whopping 890 billion minutes not over lending tree just did a survey where 43% of the respondents said that they were likely to add to their debt in the next six months while so that means it's probably just a matter of time before we see a $1 trillion number in terms of what's actually owed. In total, credit card, Millie. Obviously, this is placing a huge hardship on folks were to talk just after the break about the solution but I suspect is you take those phone calls you're hearing from a lot of folks are really discouraged and in a desperate situation. Absolutely, people, others are struggling not only because of the inflation but it's putting stress and strain from co-led to a lot of people are not receiving bonuses or during the coven time were impacted by having a reduction in hours and now they're trying to play catch-up and they just can't seem to break the cycle with inflation and rates going up as well.

Many don't have an emergency fund to fall back on. So credit cards is the default solution will Millie Simons with us today we come back after this break will have the solution. Some good news to help you get out of bed. She's a certified credit counselor with Christian credit counselors and underwriter of this program much more to go with really Simon on moneywise live still with us will be right with us today on moneywise live Rob Webster host joining me today really Simon she's a certified credit counselor with Christian credit counselors and underwriter of this grim you can learn more@christiancreditcounselors.org just before the break, Millie was sharing some startling statistics out from the Federal Reserve of New York about credit card massive increases in the amount of debt with no total credit card debt of 890 billion with a B also a massive increase in the number of new credit card accounts of 13% increase which was the biggest increase in over 20 years, which is 233 million new accounts. All of this really coming from post-pandemic finances but on top of that high inflation, the latest reading merely 9% which is really putting pressure on the average American family that is leading to more dead Millie. That's of course dire news for the average family, but we have some good news, there's a way out of credit card debt that doesn't involve bankruptcy that which by the way, destroys your credit rating and is not debt consolidation which takes out new debt. That's where Christian credit counselors comes in.

So tell us how you help folks get out credit card charge, so the service that Christian credit counselors offers is called a debt management program and the way that were able to benefit people is that we have pre-negotiated interest rates, terms and conditions already in place with the credit card companies that enable us to get people out of that 80% faster while honoring their debt and fall, and the way that we do this is that were able to lower interest rates anywhere between one and 12% APR and then we also snowballed the debt. Yeah, that's obviously something we talk a lot about here are snowballing your debt is a powerful force because as those balances come down.

There's one level monthly payment done on top of the reduced interest rates is really the secret sauce. Millie, we mentioned that bankruptcy of course destroys your credit rating. Among other things, talk about the impact of debt management on your credit rating as I know, that's a concern for a lot of folks yet so with debt management. The impact on the credit score isn't from the actual program it's actually from closing the accounts so the amount of impact is gonna be really relative to two categories and that's payment history and credit utilization in her closing down accounts that have high usage and the impact is usually pretty minor because you've Artie taken the hit based off the high usage and you're really not shutting down much available credit. The goal is really to get help with a high APR high balance accounts and then trying keep your longest standing account if it makes financial sense open as well as maybe one other general credit card.

That way you really coming up with a long-term solution to getting out it that you're keeping revolving credit lines open and which is 30% of your credit line and you're gonna work on paying down the accounts that you have open to hopefully get eventually.

Down below 30% of the credit limit because that's the sweet spot for your credit score is really helpful information. Millie, here's the reality. From my perspective were not thinking about your credit rating.

We want you to get out of that. But the good news is, as Millie said the debt management program itself is not a part of the credit scoring algorithm.

The reality is your closing accounts all the time. In all likelihood, and so it's a very minor effect for most folks.

In terms of the impact of closing an account that nearly a lot of folks get into credit card debt because they haven't been living on a budget, how do you a Christian.

Credit counselors help folks with that so they can manage their money better and make that one monthly payment on their debt.

So part of our consultation process which is free is that we walk people through a comparison estimate which is gonna outline their total amount at that. How much were able to save them, not only on the monthly payment but also in interest what their payment looks like and then also what our fee is and then the next step is that we walk people through a budget we really want to figure out how much disposable income they have at the end of the month and then maybe make some suggestions in terms of how they can be more intentional with their spending.

Yeah that's really helpful yes.

And so, after going over the comparison estimate and the budget then we send all that information to you along with the next steps and then allow you to think about or share the program with the styles so there's no commitment. The calls confidential. We really just want educate you on what your options are with credit counseling.

Very good. What about privacy nearly a lot of folks might be wary of sharing their personal financial information. Absolutely. So it's important to understand in that free consultation process. We don't need any personal information. The information that we would ask from you is name a creditor balance interest-rate minimum monthly payment and with that were able to generate the estimate. I also think it's important to understand that as a certified credit counselor everyone who works for Christian credit counselors has a DOJ background check so we been helping people for 32 years. You're working with people who have hearts to serve and we have an A+ better business rating and then we also are aligned with some of the largest Christian ministries in the world. So we have a strong reputation but more importantly it's really a privilege to help people who are struggling with their finances and to be able to come alongside and offer solutions. Well, I know that's the way you and your team feel. That's why we at moneywise. Recommend Christian credit counselors of the real beauty is that this truly is a ministry using Millie. It really is in the conversations that we have with people you know you really learn their hearts and their pains when you're talking about their finances and their struggles. So to be able to be in a position where you can provide solutions and resources and really help people to see the light at the end of the tunnel and to be able to get out of this bondage.

There such a tremendous release and peace and freedom that you get from this process, but I know there is no go just about a minute and I have loved you, and with a story, perhaps of somebody you've helped get out of credit card yet.

So going back to the topic of inflation and coed I just was helping a gentleman Mark this past week and he had called up. He had about $25,000 with the credit card that he has a family of four. His wife is only working part-time homeschools. The kids and during call that his hours were reduced, and then he wasn't receiving his bonuses so he really relied on the credit card debt to get him through that period of about a year and 1/2 now that things are are back on track.

He's really struggling to break that cycle. You know he's making payments a little bit more than the minimum but he really just can't have breakthroughs so it was really great to be able to offer him a solution to getting out of that and to learn about his experiences and his family. I can only imagine what an encouragement to know that there's a plan that's actually going to get him out of debt as opposed to just treading water with the normal minimum payment to your credit card are nearly how can folks get more information on the debt management plan from Christian credit counselors sure so you can visit our website at Christian credit counselors.or you can call us at 800-557-1985 or you can go to the moneywise website and find us there as well. What I know you will have helped hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands, by Mel over moneywise listeners and we're so grateful for how you do it Millie thanks for stopping by today. Thank you so much for having me, that's Millie Simon Christian credit counselors and underwriter of money was the website again is Christian credit counselors.org your calls or next.

800-525-7000. Rob Weston will be right back after the spring stick around with us today. The moneywise live biblical wisdom for your financial decisions. Phone lines open.

Would love to hear from you today on anything financial 800-525-7000 never go against blinds open.

Let's add to the phones. Cleveland, Ohio. Kathy thank you for your patience Greta. Thank you in almost 2 years. Mike payment minimum to put anything down like that. Have a great income about pension and government assistance. This is what you have in credit card debt right now about $10,000 and are you able to make the minimum payments. Kathy okay so the key is in this really goes to what we were talking about our first two segments would Millie Simon. The key is we need you to continue those payments but we need more. Going to principal. The movie is right now.

The challenges with these interest rates rising from the Federal Reserve is an attempt to fight inflation and slow the economy of the variable interest rates on those credit cards which were already Scott higher continuing to have higher which is really causing you some challenges about getting these going in the right direction. Debt management for program Kathy when you have more than around $4000 in credit card is really going to be the most effective solution. Essentially, any of the cards are going to credit counseling would be canceled, so they would they would be closed. But the benefit is you would enjoy the lower interest rate that these credit card companies offer to those in credit counseling program and the combination of a level monthly payment, probably around 3% of the outstanding balance.

Probably something very similar to what you're already paying today.

The combination of that, plus the lower interest rates that the credit cards would offer would allow you to pay the sum of 80% faster. Basically you have more money going to principal every month you'd send one payment through the debt management credit counseling agency. We recommend Christian credit counselors and they would distributed to the credit card companies, but I think that would give you at least knowing that your balances are headed in the right direction and allow you to pay those off much quicker.

How does that sound great. You're welcome.

So you just edit your comfortable using the computer.

Just go to Christian credit counselors.org that's Christian credit counselors.org this is a not-for-profit ministry staffed by believers that have extensive background checks, but will work with you to get a budget in place.

Take a look at all the new lower interest rates at each of your credit cards world would offer and get you enrolled in the program and I think that will love your real encouragement to you.

There is also a toll-free number on the website.

Kathy, if you'd prefer to contact them over the phone so Christian credit counselors.org is the place to go and let us know how it turns out, will look forward to hearing back from you today hundred 525-7000 with lines open the let's stay right there in Cleveland, David, your next on the program. Go ahead sir.

Thank you like to know your on the wisdom of taking. Early close to full retirement age of your program a lot never really heard you address that your opinion well tell me how long you're going to live not just that really is the key question and that's what makes it tough. Here's the reality you if you start taking Social Security early so at age 62, your monthly benefit will be permanently reduced by about 32%. However, you might receive.

Let's say for the average benefit check $60,000 or so in benefits. By the time you reach full retirement age. If you wait until then to receive benefits. You're essentially behind by that amount. You would have collected and it's estimated that it will take 11 years and seven months to recoup that that you've given up by not taking it early so you have to live to again on average 78 or so years old to break even now after that though, you'd be ahead by let's say $500 a month for the rest of your life again using the average benefit check and that 32% that you would be able to get out realized by not taking it early.

So it really does come down to the Lord comes back doesn't really matter, but if he doesn't, and you're in good health and you know you you want to wait until full retirement age and you live these roughly 12 years beyond full retirement age which the average American these days does then you know for the rest of your life, you'd enjoy that higher benefit check to some extent my downside for me and you can wear the downside for me of not drying early and I'm just a few months out from retiring just a little over six years old.

The downside of waiting is very draw down the higher drawdown on my retirement account while I'm waiting for that full retirement is I lose that I want to draw down the more earning power my investments lose quickly.

That's right.

However, I think you not to get a guaranteed 8% of the market.

Number one and number two.

Typically when you get to that point, your allocation of your investments gets somewhat more conservative. So you're probably not, you know, even if the markets performing will really well and you would've gotten a percent plus in the market, you're probably not realizing the full benefit of that because you got a larger allocation toward fixed income so not given the option of taking a little bit more from the 401(k) between 62 and full retirement age only to get that guaranteed increase of 8% a year on the Social Security.

Generally it comes out better to go ahead and take the benefit increase because it's guaranteed and it's not in the market. You're obviously at risk and because of a more conservative typical allocation. You probably know aren't even in a good market to come anywhere close to a percent years that make sense that a little bit. The 8% and I'm learning is not an 8% on my entire portfolio made percent on amount that I'm leaving from right but on the percent increase on the Social Security is on the whole thing. The only thing you're giving in the 401(k) is just the amount.

Now let's do this love to continue this conversation, I got a quick break to hold the line pickup on the other side of this is moneywise is moneywise lot of problems, neurosis is where we apply biblical wisdom to your financial decisions and choices. Glad you're here today we got two lines open 805 five 7000 Belinda's in Chicago next on the program.

Go ahead and think that a couple years ago my home safely down payment. My credit now 30,000 in credit card debt that I'm not you know I want to know what to not be able to purchase one at time, sure. So tell me exactly what you would be looking you be looking for the credit. Is that what you're thinking about what you need to credit in order to obtain a mortgage.

Though you know what the inflation and nobody knows what can I go out though because that act out of the nap of this if you have to have to file bankruptcy because of what a lot of other thing I want to put my thumping apposition again fell. I'm thinking maybe I need to but I do not act on the credit card that can hurt you know me because of the account and I make enough money on my job to take care my expenses every month. I don't buy don't have to give the car though. But life and everybody keeps talking about. I don't want to do anything to jeopardize any pain and that position to be able to park home in the market levels out. Oh yes, okay, very good. Well, I think the key is you just wanted you try not to borrow for anything you try to pay down the debt is much as you can. If you were to buy a home you want to save 20% of the down payment which would avoid the private mortgage insurance ensure that you have enough equity in the home, but really take a close look at your budget and make sure that it fits well within your income and a good rule of thumb for that principal, interest, taxes and insurance payment would be 25% of your take-home pay. As long as you really keep that mortgage payment within that 25%, then you should be a good position to make sure you can cover everything else out of the remaining income, which is where that guideline is not a hard and fast rule, but just that a guideline can help you make sure you don't get overextended putting you back into his position like you were in before. Does it make sense that I don't have any rent payment. That's all well and built so paid know that have not left over so I can get like you said, but make sure I don't go out and do anything extremely crazy and kinda like they like it is basically right by sounds like you certainly have gotten your financial house in order, as long as you really have a good plan you have an emergency fund to fall back on. Which of 3 to 6 months expenses you know you don't presume upon the future with your borrowing and you try to operate as much. As you can on a cash basis and then you as you build up that surplus starting with the emergency fund in the longer term savings for things like cars and other things as you need them.

I think that's really the key Belinda to moving forward and making sure you don't ever put yourself in a really difficult spot again so listen all the best to you. I love for you to stay on the want to send your copy of Howard Dean's book your money counts that I think will be an encouragement for you as you think about God's way of handling money. We appreciate your call today to Pittsburgh.

Glenn, thank you for calling the redhead that afternoon.

One of my nurse coworkers has a 17-year-old living at home and it's going to start college. I think their combined household income is in a preclude them from like the major Pell grants and whatnot financial aid shut up perhaps a better approach would be go for some of the smaller scholarships that go overlooked and that perhaps if they could get a few of them. They may get some no reasonable amount help that sound like a sound plan, and if so do you have a comprehensive list of the website has comprehensive list of the scholarships that you be happy to help with that. I think you're right. I think if they don't qualify for need-based aid, then you know there are a host of scholarships out there were kind of in the throes of this right now.

My oldest is a senior and he does really well in school and he's looking to get a full ride to to college but he's going park do that through scholarships.

Will the other night he was so provided a list by his the counseling office at the high school of maybe 30 different scholarship portals and he went in there and just in one evening applied for about $40,000 in scholarships just sitting there at his desk applying a way for everything he could find, and his goal is to get that up to 100,000 on top of the merit-based ghost grants and scholarships that is going to receive so you know I think it's really a matter of the willingness to put the effort in the time that you put in to using multiple scholarship search engine starting well ahead of the school year not ignoring the small awards because many small scholarships add up fast. Watching the deadlines. For instance, and in his case the first few that he was applying for had a deadline of September 1 and so he was trying to get a man well you know a lot of folks this is even on the radar yet because they're just getting back to school, but I think it's it's really important to stay on top of that, and not miss the deadlines because specially these earlier ones is going to be key to getting in the running, especially for the ones that the masses haven't applied for, because it hasn't hit the radar yet. I think you know, to the extent the scholarship requires an essay in many of them do you get that done early so you have time to have a teacher or somebody else review that and give feedback before it submitted course not to write it but just to give feedback and critique and so I think you know that's really the key. In terms of some search engines or websites that you can search for scholarships of fast web.com is one scholarships.com there's one called niche.com that has some really specific scholarship opportunities and you see want to search and sort by the ones that apply in this situation. But anyway, I think those are, generally, the ideas behind how you might think about taking advantage of this and you one more example for my family. My wife grew up in a single-family home. Her mom made it very clear she was going to college there just wasn't money there.

She was going to need to do it on her own.

She was a great student and ended up with over $150,000 in scholarships herself through college. The entire way, with zero debt. So it is possible Glenn and I think just encouraging these friends of yours to get on this early and be diligent about it is really the key to having some success. While this shall be archived so I can have her listen to your advice. Absolutely, MLB are right there and moneywise.org you build get to it. Probably tomorrow. Thank you sir are a Glenn thanks for going. God bless my friend your folks as we think about the cost of college, you know, it really is incumbent upon us as parents to number one plan ahead.

To the extent we can save early and often.

Number two I think it's really important to be communicating with your kids about the feasibility of them being able to go to college in terms of your financial readiness so that they know going into it they can go check the cost of attendance which each college furnishes and match that against what mom and that have communicated is available so they know what they can pay for and to the extent there is not money available to do in the form of scholarships and awards grants. Perhaps the work will need to do in the summer on campus for as a last resort borrowing don't need to do so really critical that you have those conversations early, but this conversation around scholarships, funds of opportunity out there. You just need to stay break we come back much more with us today and moneywise wisdom for your financial decisions. Back to the phones. It's Monday.

It's a great opportunity to check in with her friend Bob Dall who joins us on the program each Monday afternoon. Bob is with the girls more global investments is chief investment officer, and Bob.

Interesting times in the market to the headlines last week which precipitated the big Friday selloff that continues today were all about the Federal Reserve chairman tells what he said that spooked markets said inflation amendment and after we were done he said were going to fight inflation. I think you repeated about five times he's reiterating Rob that the Fed's job is to bring inflation down even if it weighs on economic growth and causes economic pain and that's new.

He is not said that before, and that's what spooked market there Friday and today. Obviously we have to fight inflation. And that's one of the studs five primary jobs, but the key is the second part of what you just said there and even if it causes some collateral damage in the economy and so how do we interpret that what is a possible outcome, given his aggressive posture to get inflation on the system if it has to slow things down and that means slow economic growth.

It means fewer job openings. It probably is going to mean some people will lose their jobs. The use of the difficult and painful parts of fighting inflation, no doubt about it. We Artie started to see any of that, either on the corporate earnings side or just with some of the economic data we have robbed the early signs of economic weakness. There are number of companies who are talking about second half not being as robust, not as much visibility that Wall Street analysts are bringing down earnings estimates for a lot of companies in the second half of the year money supply growth money is what powers the economy that has slowed significantly once assigned some early signs not severe but enough for us to have our guard up around no doubt about it, Bob. As we look out across the rest of the world. I assume were seeing similar things globally. We are in fact the US relative to other developed parts of the world are doing pretty well in Europe but perhaps is in a recession already.

In fact, the central bank basically predicted a recession in central banks almost never do that and were seeing whether it's the euro zone, or Japan China because of a lockdown related to cold.

We have a lot of economic weakness around the globe, which is only feeding the fears of these earnings concerns we mentioned earlier, no doubt about it Bob or somebody who's a long-term investor 10 years plus they feel like they have the right mix of investments for their age and risk tolerance. What would you say to them I say save course Rob me you know were down letter words were down more than 20% were still down more than 15 from the high not that long ago and not what we could fall further. I think the lion share of the decline is in the rearview mirror.

So if your time horizon really is 10 years.

A lot of people of longer than that. Just stay the course. Trying to focus on it every day try to bite your fingernails. Try to realize that economic growth leads over time in a bumpy way to up equity markets and will get that again. It just may be some time yet.

No doubt about our last question to and on a down note that's so some comments in your Dall's deliberations this week related to global few food shortages. As a result of rising natural gas prices we update folks on that and how severe were serious is that you get nasty. Rob is you know we've got the issue of natural gas prices not just moving higher, I mean careening higher much higher triple digit percentage increases in some places, and that causes shutdowns and fertilizer production which can create a global food shortage and we need to keep our element very careful you couple that with the concerns about energy in Europe and will become a nasty situation or Hamlet. But let's hope God intervenes some way shape or form to make it not so onerous for so many people will certainly continue to watch that looks for your additional thoughts on that in the days ahead. Bob was great to have you with us (thanks for stopping by. Have a great week. All right, Bob Dall, chief investment officer across more global investments. You can sign up for his Dall's deliberations's weekly investment commentary across more global.com back to the phones we go here for her final moments of the program to Fort Myers and CT should thank you for calling Karen that I thanks for taking my call.

My questionnaire for Christian credit care counseling. I've actually contacted him. But like all things except for Christ.

I haven't followed through yet when you say that you close your account does that affect your credit score that you working paycheck to paycheck. When I started working I got overwhelmed with all these offers and I took him because I didn't work for 18 years, so I never had anything you know and I have about $8000 worth of credit card okay very good yes could lower your score.

Most often does, but it's only temporary. The biggest factor is what's called credit utilization because if you take an account out of the mix, it makes the available credit lower and then any balance you have balances you have a higher percentage of that available limit but you know I think the key here T-shirt is the goal is getting out of debt. So any minor declines in your credit score, especially ones that are temporary. You know what far outweighs that is your ability to get out of debt once and for all and you not get back in in the future and I think the key is for you, unless your you know going to buy a car in the next six months or you're buying a house in the next six months. I would hope you're not out looking for more credit and so these temporary declines again won't be significant but on your credit score really don't affect you at all and it helps you pursue this ultimate goal, which is I want to be rid of this credit card debt forever, so I think the other benefit far outweighs any any temporary decline.

You might experience okay.

All right, that was very good addition going to publish it to Oklahoma Amy you're next on the program.

Go ahead.

I might my questionnaire affect my investment.

Well it does in the sense that you know it's the opportunity cost you know when you take a loan from your TSP. The interest rate you pay yourself is likely less than what you could've earned if you left it in the accounts of means. Your money will grow at a slower rate. So it's not compounding like it would be in there, and although this may seem unlikely, you know, if you were to separate from the company or if you work for the government from the government then you would have to pay it back or would all be taxable to you, so I'm not a big fan of borrowing from retirement accounts.

If anything, I would say temporarily dial back your new contributions and redirect that toward another priority like you rebuilding your emergency fund or paying down credit card that I would try to stay away from borrowing from the TSP okay okay you you are welcome. Thank you for your call Veronica in Coral Springs, Florida. You go right ahead you're next in the program. I will not know where I need to form a credit card option. No pay will implement you know you shouldn't be right now. Pay your bring home all you have to pay high weight.

I all know that I should take one thing I'm thinking no your computer and just about a minute (or in our program today but let me try to explain the difference. I think between your personal finances and your business when it comes to your personal finances the income you're receiving. Whether that's W-2 income because you're an employee or gift you receive, or in the case of a small business owner word your business, it would be the amount you paid yourself as income. I would if you're going to give a tithe on that, then you would give 1/10 of the gross amount you're not able to do that though, in a business because you actually hear increases really are profit you think about a grocery store, they might make a few pennies on the sale of a product. The margin between what they bought it for what they're selling for. If they times on the gross amount to be out of business. You really have to take all the income is the business pay yourself pay all the expenses and then at the end of the quarter the end of the year of the business as a prophet will then if you want to tithe on that business profit you would give 1/10 of that would be able to do it on the gross line will talk more off the air that's good for us today. Folks think you're being with us moneywise lives apart moneywise


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