Israel Divided?

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Michael Brown, as always delighted to be with you. It's Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. We're broadcasting from our studio at Mercy Culture in Fort Worth.

My week down in the DFW area once a week during the school year and broadcasting from our different studios here. But to everyone listening, everything sounds the same. Here's the number to call any Jewish related question of any kind whatsoever. It could be Hebrew language. It could be modern Israel today. It could be Jewish background to the New Testament.

It could be prophecies about Jesus being the Messiah. If it's Israel, Jewish related in any way, 866-348-7884. Before I go to the phones or talk about some other subjects, I want to focus on the conflict happening within Israel today. On a certain level, it's an inevitable conflict because Israel continues to be polarized, just like America, just like other nations. The polarization is getting deeper between the left and the right. There's a certain inevitability to it in Israel though based on demographics.

So let me explain. The large majority of Israelis are not Orthodox Jews. So you could say about 70% of the population is not Orthodox. In many cases, many are very, very secular, very, very liberal. And in that sense, in a bad sense, in my view, Israel can be as progressive as any nation on the earth. And some years back, a survey was done in terms of the most gay-friendly cities in America. Obviously, a gay publication did the survey. And the number one city by far, I mean, nothing was even a close second or third to it, was Tel Aviv, Israel.

So that's just part of a picture of Israel, left-leaning, very, quote, progressive, and would share the values of many on the left in America. But their birth rate is lower than in the religious communities. In fact, overall, it would be fairly similar to America, which is a little bit lower than it should be for long-term reproductive health for a nation. To sustain itself, you need, on average, about 2.1 children born for every woman during marital, during general childbearing age, which is 18 to 44. So you want to have about 2.1 children, on average, per woman during childbearing years to maintain society. Because otherwise, what happens, as is happening in Japan and other countries, the society gets older and older.

There's not enough of the younger generation to sustain it, and then it begins to die as a society. So the larger culture, I'm not talking about the Palestinian, I'm not talking about Orthodox Jews, is fairly secular. Yes, Saturday's the Sabbath, and you're not going to work that day, and the holidays of the Bible, those are the holidays that you live by, those are your national holidays. So there is a Jewish feeling, obviously, but more secular than religious. Then, and again, I'm giving very rough numbers, roughly 30% would be more religious. Of them, 13 to 15% ultra-Orthodox, so very, very religious, very, very observant.

And their birth rates are much, much higher, same with the Palestinians, much, much higher. It could be, on average, six or seven children per couple, on average. One of my friends, we debate back and forth, he's a counter missionary rabbi, learned rabbi, and we've debated back and forth for years, lives in the States, he has 14 kids.

And he said that's not uncommon in his community. My friend, Rabbi Shmuley, nine kids, I think he and Debbie have, so in the more religious circles, you have these larger families. Well, what's going to happen demographically over the years, is that the very religious are going to grow in numbers, and the not as religious will go down. Of course, you have people immigrating to Israel every year, some religious, some non-religious, but you're going to have an increasing conflict as the years go on, especially as the left gets further to the left, and the right further to the right. Now, very religious Jews, they basically want to live in their own community, right?

They're not interested in interfacing and interacting with the rest of the society. In other words, we have our jobs, we have our communities, we have our schools, and we just want to be able to live. Don't draft our young men into the military, because it's more important that they're studying Torah and praying every day. And plus, the military is a bad influence, and it's a bad environment for them. So, let us have our religious schools, and let us be underwritten by the taxpayer money to supplement, because we spend so much time studying and things, we don't have time for regular jobs. So, there is this resentment within Israel, like, hey, you're just sitting there studying all day, you're not fighting in the IDF, you're living off taxpayer money, why should we be supporting you? And they would be like, we're the only reason your nation still exists, because of our prayer and our devotion to God, because you're all lawless, you're breaking the laws, we're trying to honor God and do the right thing. So, the polarization continues.

Now, here's what happens. On the one hand, you have separate communities. You have, say, Tel Aviv as a whole, but then you have B'nai Brak, ultra-orthodox area. You have Jerusalem, and Jerusalem as a whole is far more religious than Tel Aviv, but then you have the ultra-orthodox areas, you have Meir Sherem and other places like that. So, these are the realities, but when it comes to voting, the religious will have more and more numbers, and they want their parties in power to be able to negotiate to get into government leadership to make sure that, for example, the government will be favorable to their men not being constrained to fight in the military, or the government will be favorable to underwriting their schools on a certain level, or the government will be favorable to certain communities and laws and observance and things like that. So, now you end up with the current government as the most right-leaning government in Israel's history. Now, Prime Minister Netanyahu continues to say it's the government of all the people, and on the one hand, it was elected democratically, right? This is the democratically elected government that Likud Netanyahu's party got the most votes and seats, and then it worked out in alliance with the ultra-orthodox groups and things, and orthodox groups. And nationalist right-wing groups. So, to have a majority, that's the way the electoral system works. If it went left, that's how it works. So, it's just logistics.

It is based on democratic vote. And there are people saying, like, for years, for years, you keep saying that democracy is at risk in Israel, and Israel's going down. This has been said for years, for decades.

I read an article just listing all the different times that people are saying, it's it, the sky's falling. But now, things have deepened. The opposition is deeper. And we got a great call from our friend Yoni Yonatan, former ultra-orthodox Jew in Israel, called in last week, very, very concerned, actually anxious in his heart that Israel was splitting in front of him. And to catch you up, in case you've missed this, one of the big issues is judicial reforms, because Israel does not have a constitution, and just has one governing body, the parliament. Then you have the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has even more power than the Supreme Court in America, in many ways, because it appoints its own. It's not that the elected parliament will now appoint people to the Supreme Court.

It is self-governing in that regard. And the parliament could vote on a certain thing, and the Supreme Court could overthrow it. And now the Supreme Court, which is mainly left-leaning and Ashkenazi-represented, so many would say it doesn't represent the people, and it has unwieldy power, and there should be judicial reform. But then others say, well, if the judicial reform is that parliament, the Knesset, could ultimately overrule what the court says with a certain vote, then parliament can just establish whatever it wants, and there are no more checks or balances. So, of course, all sides are going to now polarize and get more worked up, as normally happens.

And trust is going to break down. And there are even articles saying, hey, maybe there will be two Israels, like there was a split between Israel and Judah. The ten northern tribes broke away because of Solomon's sin.

It was divine judgment. The ten northern tribes broke away and Judah and Benjamin that remained, and then the Levites scattered between them. So, in any case, this is where we stand. And it's one of these situations, just like the situation with the Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians, what's the solution? A two-state solution?

A one-state solution? The surrounding nations repatriating or absorbing those that would be refugees in a more permanent way, etc. I don't have a simple solution. I agree that there are issues that need to be addressed. I agree that if Israel does wrong, Israel should be held accountable. And to the degree that Palestinian leadership still has terroristic mentality or wants to eradicate Israel, that obviously must be confronted and addressed. But I personally don't have a simple solution.

I was asked years ago to sign on with a Messianic Jewish proposal. I said, well, I don't fully agree with this. I said, well, it's evolving.

I said, okay, as long as it's evolving, we're just a step. But even that's like, I don't know. I don't know how these things are going to work out. I don't know how things are going to work out with the religious population growing in number and influence and the secular population going further left, but potentially losing more power.

What's going to happen? It would not surprise me if Israel becomes increasingly religious until Yeshua returns and we have kind of a recapitulation of what we had the Gospel and Acts and that Jewish believers living within Israel are living within an increasingly religious Israel. That would mean that many Israelis wouldn't feel at home there.

They would say, hey, I'm out of here. It's too religious or you've got too much power or you're enforcing your rules. To this day, if you want to have an official wedding in Israel, then it must be an Orthodox Jewish wedding. So there are Jews that will, Israelis will go over to Cyprus. Neighboring Island will go over to Cyprus, have their wedding there so it's official, and they'll come back because they don't want to have to do it under Orthodox supervision.

If you have a hotel and you serve meals there, it has to be rabbinic kashrut. It has to be according to rabbinic law. These were some of the compromises, some arrangements that were made with this Israeli secular government, religious Jews, even at the founding of the nation.

But this creates increasing tension. So I'm here to tell you, I do not know what the solution is, but I do know we're called to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, Shalom Shalom Yerushalayim. We are called to pray for the Lord's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. And we are to pray for the Lord's return. And for me, the great goal is let us advance the name of Yeshua within the land of Israel. Let us exalt His name. Let us preach Him. Let us bring our fellow Jews to the knowledge of Messiah. And let us reach out with that same gospel to those who identify as the Palestinian people because only the Prince of Peace, only the Sar Shalom, He is the only one that has an ultimate solution.

And I believe that any major solutions that come before that will only be temporary and will ultimately lead to a final disruption before the Lord's return. But it's an amazing time. Those that are going to be joining us in the tour in May can't wait, still counting the days. If you haven't signed up, there's still some, we've been saying still some seats for all because the last few are still there. Go to our website, AskDrBrown, AskDrBrown.org and just scroll down on the page, you'll see a banner and Israel's slide will come up. You can still get in on the trip.

But it's a great time to be praying for God to open up hearts, open up minds and bring people to the realization we can only find an answer in Yeshua, in Jesus, in the Messiah. Alright, we've got a word from our sponsor TriVita that I wholeheartedly endorse. And we'll be back with your Jewish-related calls.

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This is how we rise up. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Call me a fanatic. Go through, go through the gates.

Get away from me. Thank you for joining us on this Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. You know, many weeks because it's only one day a week we have the special Jewish music. I'm ready to start talking after our skillet friends are singing. It's like, oh, oh, but we nailed it. We got it today. I got it right.

Nobody had to remind me. 866-34-TRUTH. All right, so my latest workout update hit a good workout with a couple of young men, I guess in their 30s last night. Yes, came out victorious but was so energized we did another follow-up workout. So keep telling people healthy eating, healthy eating. I'm about to turn 68 and going for it.

And then these TriVita supplements have been terrific. So 800-771-5584. Make sure you say Dr. Brown sent you. All right, let us go to the phones and we'll start with Rod in Canada.

Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for taking my call.

You are very welcome. The other day you had a caller from Roswell, New Mexico. Oh, yeah.

I was joking at the end. We got to talk about aliens, right? Yeah. I wanted to get your take on that because a congressman recently mentioned that there's pretty clear evidence for UFOs in the Bible and his reference point was Ezekiel 1. And I think if you look at the new NIV, it's like 1, 4 through 5. And just generally like what your take is.

And because when I read a lot of things that talk about bright lights and voices from angels and things like that, it sounds like the UFO experience that a lot of people report now. So, yeah. Right. Thank you. Okay. Thanks for the question.

All right. First, a UFO doesn't mean an alien. It just means an unidentified flying object, right? So if the government says, yes, we know the existence of UFOs. So no one's denying that UFOs exist. The question is, what are they? What's behind them?

Who are they? You do have the highly unlikely scenario that an advanced civilization so advanced that it's able to time travel all the way over here, comes here and then spurts around the air for a little while and takes off and disappears. And it's also very interesting that in the great majority of cases that I'm aware of, just as I've read what others have documented, because I've never studied this on my own.

I've studied what others have said about it. The great majority of cases where you have people talking about these UFO encounters, there are people into new age stuff, there are people into alternate types of spirituality. And then you'll have people who are believers saying the exact thing happened to them.

There was this light hovering over them. They felt their spirit being sucked out of their body and they rebuked it in Jesus name and next thing they were bare back to normal. So for them, they just believe it was some demonic type of thing.

So that's all I'm going to say about UFOs aliens today. But as far as in the Bible to say, okay, Ezekiel one that must have been explained as the UFO and the wheels within the wheels and what else would that be? Well, bear in mind that this is when God speaks to Ezekiel, right? In other words, if that's the case, then Ezekiel never had an encounter with God and all of his prophecies were actually not from God and all the words he received subsequently in the miraculous confirmations, it was not from God. It was some alien being that was very, very powerful. And not only so where you have elsewhere, like in Ezekiel eight, where an angel comes from the presence of the Lord, you know, like burning fire, that that is also not really from God.

This was just another alien encounter. So to me, that's so bogus, that's so completely wrong. Ezekiel is so clearly the Word of God and the encounter he has with God is so life transforming in so many ways and his message is one of holiness and repentance and the things he prophesies actually come to pass that I throw that theory out completely and entirely. And there's nothing I read in the Bible that strikes me like, wow, that must have been a UFO. I remember as a new believer hearing all the Bible prophesies about cars.

It's like, what? So you get to Nahum, not whom, you get to that book and it's talking about the chariots blazing in the streets. So that was the Bible prophesying about cars or the Bible prophesied about airplanes.

Where is that? Well, the Ecclesiastes said a little bird will fly and report what was heard in one place and another place. It's a figure of speech.

So I don't see any more evidence for UFOs than for those things in the Bible. I appreciate your answer. So thank you. And I also appreciate the way you handle a lot of challenging calls and callers. And I think you do a really good job in balancing compassion and kindness and truth. So well done. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Thank you so much. 866-34-TRUTH. We do have our phone lines lit up, but we do have a couple phone lines open if you want to get through 866-348-7884. Let's go to Jeff in New York City. Welcome to the line of fire.

Hi, Dr. Graf. Thank you so much for taking my call. You are very welcome. I wanted to let you know that I'm 45 years old, was raised Jewish, and had a traditional Reform Jewish upbringing that a lot of people my age have had. It included some surface kind of trivial things, but not a lot of deep spirituality. Can I just jump in and say, Jeff, just to mention that my wife Nancy, her mom was married a few times, and the main stepfather that raised her when she was a little girl was a Reform Jew, basically an atheist, but active in the synagogue. And Nancy is a little girl, not even 8 years old, going to the Reform synagogue concluded that there was no God. In other words, it was clear enough to her as a little kid that there was kind of a superficial religion without God in the heart of it.

So for many, that type of upbringing actually pushes them away from God because of the superficiality and the non-supernatural aspect of it. But sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to throw that in. So back to your story.

No, not at all. I appreciate that. And I think there was always a sense of searching for truth. And even though I wasn't finding a lot of that inner truth in my religious upbringing, holding the Torah when I would do that would feel very special.

And I did sense that there was something there. And I went through a very typical journey of exploring all kinds of different philosophies. And you were a very large part of helping me realize the truth of the New Testament, the truth of Jesus, Yeshua. And it has profoundly changed my life and actually made me realize that I can proudly be who I was raised to be, that my identity even burns more brightly than I could have imagined now that I feel like I have the whole truth, all of which just hadn't been shown to me. And so I just wanted to tell you how meaningful that is.

And then I also wanted to specifically mention how much I really appreciate the way you present multiple sides of issues. And a lot of what you said yesterday about January 6th really rang true to me because as somebody who was raised very liberally, is in New York City in a very progressive environment, I've had to evaluate a lot of my own beliefs and I've had to change a lot of my opinions on things, which actually has become a joyous thing. However, in the process of doing that, there have been things that I've seen that seem counter to the brilliance of the Gospel, specifically when you called out some of the words that Donald Trump said about I am your retribution, without getting into him or politics at all. That's a complicated thing.

But just saying that, to me, hurt my heart from what I understand of the Gospel and of Jesus. I know these are complicated issues, but I appreciated hearing you have a balanced view on that and also a balanced view on appreciating what we observed has happened on January 6th. I just think in the pursuit of truth and in trying to convince people, people like me, who are liberal, to come to a different perspective.

The more consistent we can be, the more truthful we can be, the more sometimes we can admit that maybe some of the extreme aspects of certain people are not truthful. Hey, I'm just going to jump in. Stay right here. I want to talk to you on the other side of the break. But friends, politics is not the Gospel.

We're involved politically, but politics is not the Gospel. Jeff, I just want to find out more about your story. Stay right here. Thank you for the good word.

We'll be right back. Friends, when you read this book, it won't just give you a vision of what revival can do in society, in the church, but in your own heart, in your own life, in a light of fresh fire. And it ignites something in you, a hunger, a desire, a vision of what God can do through a yielded life. Revival or we die. Even have a whole chapter where I share intimate, open prayers I've prayed to God, even in recent years, to ignite a fresh, a first love in me, I believe, as you read it, something will be ignited within you as well. But, you know, whenever revival comes, there's controversy. And that's why I wrote the Revival Answer book. I wrote it in the midst of the Brownsboro revival, answering the many honest questions. Is there too much emotion? What about shaky?

What about falling? What about unusual things that happen in revival? And can we really expect revival in the last days, or will things only get worse? When you order this hardcover edition of Revival or We Die, I want to give you this book, the Revival Answer book, 300-page book. I want to give it to you absolutely free. So here's the number to call, 1-800-538-5275.

That's 1-800-538-5275. Or go to AskDrBrown.org, just click on Shop. And when you do, you'll see the special offer, the hardcover edition of Revival or We Die. The Great Awakening is our only hope. Along with the Revival Answer book is our free gift to you when you order. One more time, the number to call, 1-800-538-5275. The time for revival is now.

This is how we rise up. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Call me a fanatic. See His grace and His face shine upon you. That sounds like the voice of Misha Goetz, known her since before she was born and ministered many times with her mom and dad, Marty and Jennifer Goetz. April 6th at the Museum of the Bible, we are participating in the Messianic Jerusalem Seder. I'll get to preach a message there.

I believe it's sold out. It should be a very special event. And God willing, that day I'll be broadcasting live from the Museum of the Bible. I want to mention something about revival and controversy before the show is out. I want to come back to that.

But first, let me just get back to Jeff in New York City. So, Jeff, I know this is a long story, but for the benefit of our listeners, and I'd love to hear it, when you said that you were on a journey and rediscovering or discovering the truth about Yeshua in the New Testament, Jesus being our Messiah, and that the Line of Fire broadcast played an instrumental role. So at what point in your journey did you find out about the broadcast and then how did it help solidify things for you? So I think for me it started with when I decided to read the New Testament. This was about 10 years ago and it occurred to me, you know, I've never read this.

This is the most important book in the world and why have I not read this? And, you know, it didn't take me long, basically right as soon as you get to the Sermon on the Mount, and I literally had tears streaming down my face, because what Jesus is saying there was basically confirming the nature of God that I had always wanted to believe God could be, but had never been taught God was. And hearing Jesus say that was sort of like hearing, yes, this is what I've been longing for, this is what my heart told me, you know, if God is real, this is what God would have to be.

And then hearing God say that was so meaningful. And so it was around that time that I started to do a bunch of research on many sources, books and YouTube, and it was around that time that I found you and listened to a number of debates. And it was, a lot of it was your own story, a lot of which I relate it to.

You know, I've had struggles with alcohol and drugs and food and anxiety and a lot of things. And you just presented a very warm and what felt undeniably truthful, you know, I was going to say argument, but I don't even want to put that word to it. It was just a very loving justification to help me realize that these new ideas that I was beginning to incorporate into my life were not really contrary to who I was.

They were actually the fulfillment of who I was, you know. Jeff, thanks for sharing that. It's so meaningful. So friends, what Jeff is saying, as a Jew, okay, now you read it's like, well, the New Testament, it seems right and Jesus wants, it's like everything I wanted God to be, but I'm a Jew. You know, when I first came to faith, my dad's famous words to me, Michael, I'm glad you're off drugs, but we're Jews.

We don't believe this. So we're able to say, no, this whole thing is Jewish. Jesus is Yeshua. His mother is Miriam.

He dies in conjunction with Passover. And, you know, everything, it's fulfilling what's in Scripture. It's the culmination of what we've been longing for and looking for. So, Jeff, it is great to hear about your journey. I really appreciate that. And thanks for sharing so graciously. May God's grace be with you. May He use you to reach many of our people in New York. So listen, I've just got some good news to share with you friends.

You know, we were on for years in a big station in New York City, and I would even get calls sometimes from ultra-orthodox Jews. Hey, I like what you're doing. We don't agree on everything. Or an email, I can't tell you more. I can't give you my address, but I listen regularly and I agree with you, you know, and can we send you anything?

No, no, no, no. It's all in secret. So we were on for years and then we didn't have the financial infrastructure to sustain us. But thankfully with our new sponsor and many of you stepping forward to stand with us, we are starting to get back on some key stations.

I'll be giving an announcement in the next week or two about our first one. So little by little, by God's grace, we are going to blanket America with the line of fire. And that also means reaching a whole lot more Jewish people.

It's in the convenience of their car, the secrecy of it. Boom. There you go. And all of you, if you've never visited our Jewish website, Real Messiah, it's there for you. If you just want to watch debates I've had with rabbis or learn about why Jews don't believe in Jesus, how we respond, or whatever your background, if you're a Jewish person and you're really curious, you think I'm wrong, but you want to be intellectually fair and have integrity, you want to study, RealMessiah.com. RealMessiah.com. If you have the Ask Dr. Brown Ministries app, just scroll down and you'll see Real Messiah right there on the home page of the app. All right.

With that, we go to Anthony in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, I can, sir. Hey, how you doing, Dr. Brown? You're doing very well. Thank you.

All right. So I was reading in the book of Luke, reading chapter 21, and I went across verse 24, and I was kind of confused on it, right? So I was trying to see if you can give me an explanation on what the time of the Gentiles mean and how does it relate to the return of the Jewish people. So the Jewish people will be sent out as captives to the nations, and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So on the one hand, it's telling you this idea of Jewish people scattered and servitude among the nations will come to an end. In other words, these things will happen until, which implies there is a return back to Jerusalem. So my understanding is that this begins to have this fulfillment in 1967 in the Six-Day War when Jerusalem was now united under Jewish leadership for the first time in 1900 years, that even in 1948, Jerusalem was a divided city, and you had Jordanian control of half of Jerusalem, and in that sense, the most sacred parts and where the wall is, what we call the Wailing Wall, but in Hebrew, just the Kotel, the wall, and that was really trodden underfoot of the Gentiles.

And even Jewish cemeteries were vandalized and things like that, synagogues just used as public bathhouses, bathrooms. So as Jerusalem is retaken, then Six-Day War in 1967, Jerusalem back in Jewish hands, that to me, and to many others, is the clear beginning that the times of the Gentiles ruling over Jerusalem have come to an end. Now there's still a battle going on over these things, but with that, Jewish control of Jerusalem, more and more Jewish people returning to the land, and as the Gospel continues to go out into the entire world, there's still the times of the Gentiles in terms of the Gospel going out to the whole world, but that comes to a climax as all the nations hear the Gospel, and ultimately, the Gospel comes back to Jerusalem and the Jewish people themselves are saved. So that's how I understand it.

Jerusalem back in Jewish hands, no longer trodden underfoot by the Gentiles, and that begins to have its fulfillment in 1967 of this era, which is why we continue to see Jewish return to the land, we continue to see Jewish believers reconnecting more to the Lord, the Church recognizing more of its Jewish roots, and as the Gospel continues to accelerate around the world, with more Gentiles coming to faith every year than ever before, that will come to its climax, and on the heels of that, Israel will be saved. Okay. That sounds like a great explanation. Well, you are very welcome, sir. I appreciate the call.

866... Thank you. Keep going. We're going for it, man. We are going for it.

Thank you. 866-34-TRUTH. Let us go to Kim in High Point, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire.

Are you there? I tell you what, I don't see Kim here anymore, but her question, I can easily answer. What were the people of God called before Jews? So initially, they have Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. So they're just people, right? Now you have the sons of Israel, the Bnei Yisrael, children of Israel.

So that's who they are. We're the family of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, right? So children of Israel, and that's the one identification. So children of Israel or Israel. So Israel is my firstborn son. That's what Moses tells Pharaoh from the Lord.

Let my son go that he can worship me, right? So let Israel go. So the whole nation was called Israel.

Then you had the tribal identities within that. So you were a Simeonite, or a Manassehite, or a Levite, or a Judahite, or a Judean, right? At a certain point, when the northern kingdom is largely exiled, where remnants from the 10 northern tribes come down and join the kingdom of Judah, now the kingdom of Judah is smashed by the Babylonians. Many Judeans go into exile, now return, and now you have what's called the province of Judah. And that's where you have Yehudi, someone who lives in the province of Judah is a Yehudi. So previously it was someone who lives in the tribe of Judah is a Yehudi. And now the one who lives in the province of Judah is a Yehudi, a Jew.

And this becomes the identity. This is where basically in the one place back in the land where all the different tribes of Israel, mainly Judean, Benjamin, Levite, but also some of the other tribes, they're all there in one place. So anyone that lives there is now Yehudi. And that's how Jew became a name for all the 12 tribes. So anyone, wherever your background is, you're part of a Jew. But originally it was children of Israel, Israel as a whole, and then became more focused with Jew and Judean. By the way, March 23rd is our date for the debate with Hebrew Israelite leader Alazar debating the 12 tribe chart that this particular group of Hebrew Israelites uses. Many other Hebrew Israelites recognize the whole thing's bogus. There's no truth to it.

It's an overall presentation and this group is this tribe. It's just completely bogus. But we are debating it. I'm sure it's going to be a serious debate.

And I will be arguing against the 12 tribe chart for the authenticity, the legitimate Israelite ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews, of which most of my lineage comes roughly 90%, Ashkenazi 10%, Sephardic. But pray with me. It's March 23rd.

It'll be live streamed. We'll give you all the details. I know the things.

We understand. Academically, it's completely bogus. There's not a solid academician in the world that would support the 12 tribe chart.

The thing's invented. Alleged revelation was just invented. The question is, how can I reach people who really believe it's true? Because already they're prejudiced against me. I'm a white guy.

I'm in this white Edomite devil. And there's such deception and, in some cases, such hatred. So this is not all Hebrew Israelites.

I'm talking about some particular group. So let's really pray that the Holy Spirit would open our eyes, and the truth would just penetrate. And then before that, in London, March 20th, debating Zakir Hussain, on the question, does the Bible prophesy about Muhammad? So thanks for your prayers.

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That's 800-811-9628. This is how we rise up It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Oh yeah, Isaiah 12, you will draw water with joy from the wells of salvation.

Love it. So 866-34-TRUTH, and we'll get a couple more called. If you are in the Greater London area and want info on the March 20th debate with Shakir Hussain, it will be at a university in London, but we have been told not to post the information online for various reasons from the university. So you could just write to us. Go to our website and click on contact. And when you do, we will then send you the specific information. We're just asking you not to post in respect to the university's request.

It could be numbers of people or whatever. I'm not really sure the reason, but we appreciate them hosting the debate that's coming up very, very soon. Also, we've got special events with chosen people, London March 18th and Manchester March 19th. So those are on our itinerary on the AskDrBrown.org website. So before I go back to the calls, if you heard our presentation at the bottom of the hour talking about our resource package this month, my book, Revival or We Die, it will not only give you a vision for revival and how critically wonderful it is and essential, but it will spark your own heart to go after God. With that, free the book, Revival Answer Book that we're giving you with the purchase of Revival or We Die. And I said it, I think, as recently as yesterday, you can have controversy without revival.

You can't have revival without controversy. I was sent a link today, but it was a report on Asbury, critical report, and I'm not even going to give details. I don't want to draw attention to it. It was sad to read. I sent it to some of my colleagues, and we're just saddened by the criticism, absolutely saddened. And it's so unfortunate on so many lines, but yet people make these mistakes all the time. A true move of God comes, and they don't recognize it, where they write it off for various reasons.

It's like clockwork. So I've got a question for you. Name for me one of the 10 spies who said we can't take the land. The Children of Israel sent out their 12 spies. Name me one of the 10 who said we can't take the land. You've probably read it many times.

You've probably read it many times, read in numbers. You don't remember them. Name me the two who said we can.

Joshua and Caleb. It was Pastor Wayne Benson I heard use that illustration many years ago and stuck with me. Name for me the chief critic of the Great Awakening who opposed Jonathan Edwards.

You don't know Charles Chauncey. It's passed. Name for me the pastor that said that the Welsh revival with Evan Roberts and others, that it was a blasphemous travesty of the real thing. You don't name Peter Price.

It's gone. Or who was Bishop Lavender, I think, who opposed Whitfield. You have these people. You forget those names.

So it's really important to understand that when God moves, there will be invalid criticism that misses the move of God and then constructive things we need to hear. How do we sort them out? So that's what I get into in the Revival Answer Book. So again, let me turn this over to the right number for you. 800-538-5275. This two book package, you get the second book free.

800-538-5275. You'll be blessed by the content. I feel very sure of it. You'll be stirred in your spirit. You'll be helped in your mind. Word, spirit, grace, truth together.

I think you'll be really helped by this package. So I just want to mention it to you again. We go back to the phones with Michael and King, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Michael.

Are you there? I guess Michael couldn't hold. That happens. Life happens. You get busy.

Let's go over to Brett in Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown. Hey. How are you?

I'm doing really well. Thank you. Praise the Lord. My question, because you're a Hebrew scholar and expert, is on Genesis 15. When the word of the Lord comes to Abram, the debar Yahweh, it comes to him in a vision, and then he brings up what is his source point in life, his progeny, or the lack thereof. Anyway, so Abram calls him, I think, Adonai, Yahweh, and then in the end of the pericope the Holy Spirit says that Yahweh cut a covenant with Abram that day. And my question is this, why would we not see debar Yahweh as a title for the person of God? Because it didn't appear like meanie, meanie, you know, Kekulah, Tarzan, or anything. Right, so this is a being who came as debar than I, the word of the Lord.

Yes. Just like Jesus is the word made flesh. And then when we read John 1, yeah, and then when we read John 1, we go like elf, we say, oh, I know him.

Yep, right, so to make sure all of our listeners are following this, it's a great question, Brett, and others have come at this as well. Jeremiah might say the word of the Lord came to me saying, and he gets a word, he gets a revelation, right? He hears something, so the word came to him. Or you have in Daniel 5, mene mene tekelu farzin, they're handwriting on the wall.

It's literally words written on the wall, basically saying you've been weighed in the balance and found wanting. But here it says the word of the Lord came to Abram, and now he's talking actually with Yahweh, with the Lord himself. So is the word of the Lord there not talking about a thing, but a person, a being, the Lord himself, meaning the Son of God? Now, for sure, my view is whenever God appears in the Old Testament, that's the Son appearing, because the Son makes the Father known. No one has seen God at any time, meaning the Father, in His unveiled glory, but the Son makes Him known. That's what we read in John 1, 18, right, that the Son makes the Father known. That's what we read in John 14, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father, Hebrews 1, that He's the express image of His being, that He's the shining forth of His being.

1 Timothy 6 reiterates that no one has seen God, and yet He is seen, He does appear. So I do believe whenever He appears, it is the Son appearing, and that this would be potentially an example of the word appearing. And whatever the appearance was, that the word of the Lord is actually the Lord Himself, in this case, the Son of God, the Word made flesh in the New Testament, now appearing. It's possible to read it like that. The other way to read it is the word of the Lord came to Him, but it came through God Himself being there, or that the word of the Lord is God Himself.

So it's my first reading when I look at it, you know, over the years when I've read it, I've read it in that sense of the word of the Lord came to Him through God speaking to Him directly. But can you understand it, that the word of the Lord is God speaking? It's certainly possible to read it like that, sir. Yes, okay. Well, that's well said. And it could be both, couldn't it, sometimes? Yes, yes, absolutely.

Like I have friends who think that wherever it says the word of the Lord came to me saying that it was actually the Lord coming to that person and speaking. No, yeah, I don't see that. Right, right.

Yeah, but the way you opened it up is sound. In other words, it says this, and then this is what follows. But the L-X-S doesn't translate that as logos.

Right, so let me just look here. So, in verse 4, he need for deny a lot more. Now, again, reading the Hebrew just grammatically, the word of the Lord came to him saying, so is it God saying or the word saying? So, the Greek is, let's say... No, I'm talking about verse 1.

Oh, okay. Yeah, either way. Devar Yahweh.

Right, after these things, right. Well, it's the exact same thing in verse 4, Devar Yahweh. Yeah, the exact same thing.

The Septuagint, let's just see, in the fourth verse, it emphasizes it was the voice of the Lord. And here it's the rhema. Yeah, rhema choreo. So, it's just a literal translation. Rhema and logos being somewhat interchangeable in terms of their usage.

And again, the Septuagint is not anticipating John the prologue, right, or they're not anticipating Philo's use of logos. So, it's a perfectly rhema for translating Devar. That's perfectly legit. Sure. Well, thank you so much. You're very welcome. You bet. God bless.

Yeah, it's nice to have my accord and software here, things that I don't have memorized in my head to be able to look. So, I've got in front of me, I've got the Hebrew text next to that, the Targum, the Aramaic next to that, the Greek Septuagint next to that, the Syriac Peshitta. All right.

Sean in Michigan, time is really short. So, dive right in and I'll try to answer quickly. Okay.

I just want to ask a question about Ezekiel 21, 77. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. It says, I will overturn, overturn, overturn. I will give it to him. And who was it? I mean, who is the him that is talking about him? And who is the... All right. Sean, I apologize.

It's very hard to hear you. What text specifically were you asking about? Ezekiel 21, 27. All right.

Ezekiel 21, 27. I'm going to try to race there before we go off the air. 21, 27.

And, okay, in his right hand. All right. Okay. Tell you what. Here's the deal. I'm going to try to sort this out later today and figure out exactly what question you're asking, and then maybe start the show tomorrow with the answer, if I could sort it out. I was doing my best to listen. I just had a hard time hearing and understanding, but you're saying, hey, may the Lord bless you. Friends, do you have my app? Oh, come on. You don't have it?

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