One, the line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown. Two minutes from Mark. Two minutes. And stations coming up on 90 seconds until the launch of hour number one of the line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown, Salem Radio Network's channel SR2. 90 seconds from Mark. 90 seconds. And stations is now one minute before the start of hour number one of the line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown. One minute from Mark. One minute. And stations now the final time check before the start of hour number one of the line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown. 30 seconds until hour number one from Mark. That was our final verbal time check for the line of fire with Dr. Michael Brown.
We'll have a long tone at 10 seconds before, followed by a short one at five seconds. Have a great afternoon everybody. The line of fire with your host biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the line of fire. And now here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. I have been looking forward to this moment.
Here we are. You've got questions. We've got answers.
Any question on any topic that relates in any way to anything I write about, talk about, anything we've ever discussed on the air, you name it. Give us a call 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. That is the number to call. And we go straight to the phones.
We will start with Jose in Mexico City. Thank you for calling. Yes. Thank you for taking my call, Dr. Brown. My question is regarding your position with regarding the pre-raft or post-treat positions.
Which one do you lean on? And if you could do like a future show, talking more about the timing of the rapture. Thank you. Yes, sir.
Thank you. So I've done shows at length on my view that there is not a pre-trib rapture. That at the end of this age, Jesus returns in glory. He appears for the world to see.
We are caught up to meet him and descend together with him. So if there is a specific seven-year tribulation, then it would be post-trib. So I've done whole shows on that. I've written a whole book together with Professor Craig Keener called Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Again, Craig Keener and I wrote that Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. That being said, I have not gotten in-depth, sir, about differences between pre-wrath and post-trib because they're fairly close. And I have not extensively investigated pre-wrath as much as I thoroughly investigated pre-trib because I held to that for years. That's what I got saved into. But my reason, my most fundamental reason for rejecting the pre-wrath idea is, and I imagine pre-wrath folks would have an answer, so maybe that I can do, Jose, is bring on a pre-wrath colleague and we can discuss our differences and do a whole show.
I did one years back, but I'd gladly do another one on that to speak further. But as I understand it, there is one second coming, right? There's not two phases to it where Jesus comes, raptures us out secretly, and then seven years later pre-trib or three and a half years later mid-trib, we return with him. That would be a second and a third coming. Rather, there is one second coming. And at the end of the outpouring of wrath and judgment during which God protects us, the end of Isaiah 26, God says to his people, hide in the inner chamber until my wrath passes by.
And just as he protected the children of Israel while he poured out his judgments on Egypt, I believe he will protect his people from his wrath during final time of tribulation. Then, Jesus appears. It's only one second coming. He appears for the whole world to see. We're caught up to meet him in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4 that says we'll meet him in the air. The Greek word used there is commonly used for greeting someone on their arrival and then you escort them back. So say a Roman official or major leader was coming into the city, the crowds would go out to meet him there and then escort him back. So that's what happens with us and the Messiah.
So my own view and understanding is, post-trib, if you'll just search our website AskDrBrown.org for pre-trib or for rapture, you'll see the shows we've done on that, or search our YouTube channel AskDrBrown on YouTube. So hopefully that has helped you. All right, sir? Yes, thank you and blessings from Mexico City. Much appreciated. Much appreciated. You know, when I teach at Christ for the Nations in Dallas three days a month during the school year, there are a lot of Spanish-speaking students and quite a few from Mexico.
So I'm interacting with my Mexican friends a whole lot more these days than I have in years, which has just been wonderful. All right, 866-348-7884. Let's go to Joshua in Branson, Missouri. Welcome to the line of fire.
Hey, Dr. Brown. Thanks for taking my call. You're very welcome. Yeah, so I just had a question on kind of the varied sanctification we see throughout the body of Christ, in particular being involved in the recovery ministry. So I've been working with Teen Challenge for several years and just recently accepted a chaplain position at a recovery ministry, and it just kind of amazes me just the varied experiences that I've seen throughout my time. So we'll have, of course, students and residences that will get the gospel, they'll be transformed immediately, and then it seems like there's other cases where they hear the gospel and you'll notice gradual change over time, but there seems to be these constant cycles where they'll fall back into that same addiction, though they may not be fully living in it. 100% of the time it seems to be this constant cycle that they can't seem to break, and I've known drug addicts and alcoholics that have supposedly come to Christ, but they've died, even gone to their graves, still struggling with that, and I guess that's something that I have a hard time relating to, because when I got saved it was pretty radical.
I was addicted to pornography for several years, and I never really went back to that addiction. I know that you can relate with that based on your personal testimony, so I'm just curious as to why you think that that is, because I can come to a place in my heart where I wonder, okay, did this person truly even experience a born again experience with the Holy Spirit? But then when I lay out my heart, of course, I know how sinful I am, so why do you see that to be the case so often?
Yeah, I appreciate that, appreciate the practical question. So first let me get theological, and then experiential and practical. Theologically we understand sanctification is past, present, and future, so the moment that we're saved, God sets us apart as holy. We now belong to him, and if you were lost one day and saved the next, and Paul was writing a letter to you, you would be among the saints that he was writing to, and saints in Greek, his holy ones, called to be holy. So the moment we're saved, we're set apart as holy. Then there is the ongoing process of growing in holiness, like 2 Corinthians 7-1, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. We grow in holiness, and then there's the final sanctification in our resurrected bodies where we'll never sin again. So we understand that theologically, right? The question is what you laid out. So you always have to be very careful to not add condemnation and judgment to those struggling, as you understand.
These are questions you're wrestling with internally trying to figure out. And Leonard Ravenhill once said to me that sanctification, to paraphrase his words, is crisis. So you have a crisis where you have to break through, and you have a radical change, then growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, then maybe another crisis.
You have to break through and have a radical change. But the question is, as you said, why is it that some seem to struggle until the day they die? And some even seem to fall back.
They just seem weak. In other words, it's not like, I'm going to sin against God and do whatever I want to do. It's like, no, man, I messed up.
I need help. And then they fall back. So here's what I could say again with generalizations, recognizing that human beings are different. Some people change more easily.
Some people have personalities and upbringings where they're more disciplined, et cetera. But I would look first at how the person was born again. Were they really genuinely saved? Did they come under conviction of sin?
Did they really cry out to God to forgive them? Many times we preach a superficial gospel in America that produces false converts. If it doesn't produce false converts, it produces shallow converts.
So that's the first thing I look at. Were you really born again, or how deeply? Yeah, I understand. Born again is born again. In other words, one day you were lost, the next day you're not lost. But how deeply did you understand what that meant? How deeply did you come to the cross recognizing your guilt and your need for a Savior? How deeply was God working in you, or did you just try to add Jesus in to have a better life? Or maybe you were struggling in your marriage and needed a little help, or maybe you were attracted to him religiously.
So I would start there. And then the second thing is, so if it turns out there wasn't deep salvation experience, let's go back to the basics. Let's understand our sin. Let's understand our helplessness. Let's understand our guilt before God. Let's understand the power of the blood.
Let's understand why Jesus came and died. Then, wherever the person is, it's a matter of real serious discipleship. Now, of course, in a teen challenge setting, they're getting intensive discipleship day and night, and then many go out many go out, the highest success rate among drug-related programs compared to the world system. Many go out, most go out and do well, but some don't. Some fall back.
I would generally say that the reason that that happens is because they leave some kind of door open, or they think that it's okay to play with sin. Nancy and I were just chatting earlier today, my wife and I, about lifestyle change, diet change, because I've been talking about that a lot on the radio. And Joshua, when God radically dealt with me and helped me to change my lifestyle over eight and a half years ago, I realized that he was saving my life and preserving my life and extending the quality of my life. And I couldn't mess with it. I couldn't play with it. I dread the thought of what would happen if I deviated. I can't imagine going back to the way I lived before. So I would say that many times, and let me try to get this in because we've got a break coming up, but I would probe deeper to see if there are unsurrendered areas of life.
I would probe deeper to see have they really reckoned with the fact that they're dead to sin. You can't go back. You can't do this again. Jesus saved you from this.
Your body's not your own. You've been bought with a price, 1 Corinthians 6-20. Therefore, flee sexual immorality or flee whatever it is that bound you, drugs in my case before I was saved, and yield yourself up to God. And then don't play with it. Just because God set you free doesn't mean, oh, now let's see how close I can get to the fire without getting burned.
No, stay far away from the fire. If you do that and then you realize, okay, and myself, I'm weak, but God's strength is made perfect in my weakness, you'll really see God's grace carry you through, and nobody has to fall back. Those are some of the things I'd emphasize, and then always grace, grace, God's empowerment in it. It's not just your strength.
It's God's strength working through. Hopefully some of that is helpful to you, Joshua. I appreciate the call.
Thanks. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us. I'm going right back to the phone lines in one moment, and then I've got, tell you what, bottom of the hour, an exciting announcement to share with you, and a real neat kind of amazing testimony I heard from a friend, James Robinson. But I mentioned yesterday I was going to give you some debate updates.
I failed to do it over the course of the show. So Monday, March 20th in London, all my friends in the London area, Monday, March 20th, I'm scheduled to debate Muslim apologist Zakir Hussain on the subject, Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible? Oh yeah, very much looking forward to that. It should be in a university in London or possibly in a mosque, and we plan to stream online. In any case, stay tuned for more details, those that are in the London area. Then later that week, I believe it's going to be that Thursday, so when I'm back home, later that week, I'm scheduled to debate the leader of the Sicari Black Hebrew Israelites on the subject of Ashkenazi Jews or the 12-tribe chart.
You've never seen it. It is absolutely bizarre, the 12-tribe chart. Who are the real Jews? Oh yeah, so we've got those, and hopefully a major Jewish debate in the Cleveland area in June.
It's just in its infancy stages of talking about that, but hopefully that is going to happen as well. Let's go over to Barbara in New York City. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Thank you, Dr. Brown. I hope I don't start crying about abortion.
I totally disagree with you. My cousin, this was right before Roe vs. Wade. She got pregnant, and she was afraid of childbirth, and the whole thing scared her, and so she hanged herself, and I found her. If Roe vs. Wade had been legal at that point, she'd still be here. Barbara, can I just ask you something, Barbara? What?
That's a terrible loss, and I've never lost a loved one like that, so I can't put myself in your shoes, but can I ask you a question? Sure. If she was so afraid of childbirth, why did she get pregnant? Well, I was 14 years old. She, obviously she had sex, so that's how she got pregnant. Right, right. But abortion shouldn't be against the law. All right, but Barbara, was there a living human being? You suffered an unspeakable loss, a horrific loss, and I can't minimize that, but what about the loss of the baby in the womb?
Isn't that serious, too? That's not a baby. That's a fetus.
In Judaism, abortion is allowed if it would cause physical or psychological harm to the woman, and nobody should be forced. I've had a child. I would never do it again. The pain is excruciating. Nobody should be forced to go through that against their will.
I almost died. I mean, I love my son, but I would never, never go through that again. All right, well, there are ways, of course, to have pain-reduced labor. We understand that, and many women choose those ways, but Barbara, just to understand this, as far as Judaism, Orthodox Jews oppose abortion. That's Orthodox Jews, not other forms of Judaism. Right, right, but Orthodox Jews are the ones who hold to Jewish tradition.
The others hold to modernized views. But just to press on this one point, Barbara, okay? If someone is going to...when you were pregnant... You have a nice voice. Well, thank you.
Thank you, Barbara. And we're talking about life and death. I used to be a believer, by the way. All right, let's come to that in a moment, all right? That's very important, but let me just ask you one question. When you were pregnant and you started to feel the baby kicking in the womb, did you say, oh, the fetus is kicking or the baby is kicking?
What does that have to do with anything? Because you recognize it's a baby. When you want to keep it, you recognize it's a baby.
If you want to get rid of it, you call it a fetus. The government shouldn't mandate that somebody can have an abortion. Poor women don't have access to health care.
Right, but there are many support systems. You know women still die on abortion, and you know how many women grieve over their whole lives? They fight depression and suicide because they had abortions? That's nobody's business.
That's between a woman and her doctor. That's nobody's business. Well, I'm just telling you, abortion not only kills babies in the womb, it destroys the lives of many women. Shouldn't we tell the truth about that? I had an abortion, didn't I?
I was glad I had it. Well, that's you, but that's your life. First, there's a baby that could have come into the world that didn't, that you chose to, you chose to deal with a life that was not your own. Because if you didn't have the abortion...
I don't agree with that, I'm sorry. Well, Barbara... The government, nobody should force somebody to go through an abortion against, I mean childbirth, against their will. Well, then they shouldn't get pregnant, and if it's rape, there are people who are very happy to adopt those babies. That's not the government's business, that's not a religious leader's business, there's nobody business.
Well, tell you what, let's just say, hang on, Barbara, Barbara, let me just ask you this, let me just ask you this. Let's just say the mother has the baby and realizes, I can't take this, I'm losing my mind, the baby's a day old. Is it okay if she kills it? That's not the same thing.
Well, why isn't it? If it was one minute earlier in the womb, you say it's okay. People don't have, you know, this is your religious belief, and we live in this secular constitutional democracy. I'm not talking religious beliefs. I didn't say religion, did I?
No, but you're a Christian, so... But Barbara, I'm just asking a humanitarian question. The baby, she could have aborted the baby one hour earlier, right, say in New York, right up until the time of delivery. That's not true, that's not true. It's very true. If you claim that you're going to have a psychological breakdown right up to the time of delivery through the ninth month, study the new laws, this is within the last two years, okay?
I've studied this in depth. But it would be okay to terminate the life of that baby then, but once it's born, if she goes, I can't take this, I'm going to lose my mind, I cannot handle the child, why can't she kill it then? You know, you're not a medical doctor, and this decision should be between a woman and her doctor. I just asked you, I didn't ask you a medical question.
You're not a medical doctor. Barbara, neither are you, I imagine, but it's not a, the baby is now one minute old, and the mother says, I can't handle it, I can't, I'm going to lose my mind, I can't handle being a mother. Can they kill that baby then? Would that be a compassionate thing to do? No, but the person's already born.
But why, but why is that any different if two minutes before it was born, it could have been killed? You know, all these Christian leaders are trying to enforce their beliefs. You know, I used to be a believer, speaking comes in all of that. All right, so obviously you got, something went wrong in your beliefs, but God never hurt you. You hurt yourself. That's not true. God never hurt you, Barbara. I don't believe that.
Well, tell me what he did to hurt you. I've been, well, for one thing, I used to go to churches, and I had a very bad nervous breakdown. This was about 12 years ago, and I literally lost my mind, and are you familiar with Times Square Church? I preached there many times. Uh-huh, well that's a mistake. Anyway, those people told me I was a sinner, that I had demons, and they rebuked demons.
They told me not to get medical help. Are you saying that, Barbara, did the pastors do this, or just some people in the church? Because there are many thousands that go there. You can't get to the pastor because he's got bodyguards. No, no, but they have, they have a whole pastoral team that helps people with counseling.
That place is demonic, if anything. They told me not to go to a psychiatrist, not to be on medication, because that was of the devil, and God would heal me. Well, God didn't heal me, and I wound up in the hospital. I was put on the right medication, and I'm fine. I also had another believer tell me that Hitler should have killed all the Jews, and then I had another one tell me... Barbara, but hang on, so you ran into flaky believers.
They're everywhere. You have no problem calling all those people demonic, right? So you're willing to throw names around. You got hurt by people. God never hurts you.
You got hurt by people. Jesus died because we're all sinners, because we're all messed up. I don't consider myself a sinner. That's why I'm not a Christian anymore.
Well, that's true. In other words, if you think that you are fine and righteous, so you think I'm a sinner... I didn't say anything about being righteous. I'm a human being, and I have faults just like everybody else. So that's a sinner. We all have faults.
We all fall short. That's your Christian belief. Judaism doesn't believe that.
It doesn't? Why do you have Day of Atonement every year? That's not the point. Once a year. Why do you have Day of Atonement once a year, where you confess all your sins and ask for forgiveness?
It's once a year. But aren't you acknowledging... I'm a terrible person. I'm a bad person. I'm evil. I have demons.
Demons exist. There is a spirit of Jezebel and all this nonsense, and Judaism doesn't... Judaism does teach that we're sinners, that need God's help and grace, and that with His help and grace we can live good lives. How do you forgive for God? But Barbara, Jewish prayers pray for forgiveness every single day, even Reformed Judaism. It's not like Christianity.
Right, yeah. It doesn't recognize how far we've fallen and our need for Savior. See, if that's your opinion, I haven't fallen. Tell you what, tell you what.
When I saw... I wanted to jump to your call because I thought something was up. So, folks, let's pray for Barbara, that God will give her a revelation of her need for a Savior, and that she would encounter His incredible love. Barbara, I want to send you a free book called Has God Failed You? I won't give your address out to anybody.
We won't put you on any mailing list. I just want to send you a free book that I wrote called Has God Failed You? Barbara hung up. All right, well, let's pray. Let's pray for God to get hold of her.
I think we heard enough. Let's pray that God would get hold of her and bring her back. Yes, she'll need to come under conviction of sin, but out of that will come such a revelation of the love of God to transform her forever. If you've been hurt, if you've been alienated from God, I recommend my book Has God Failed You? Finding faith when you're not even sure God is real.
Don't let getting hurt by the church keep you away from Jesus. We'll be right back. Let's pray for Barbara. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34 TRUTH.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Okay, I'm going to get right back to the phones momentarily.
Alberto, Jim, Mickey, Sandy, we're coming your way very, very shortly. Thanks for your patience, and I hope you appreciate why we took time with Barbara. Okay, I just want to share this with you. So this is the last day in our thrust for this month of Let's Get Healthy, and we started talking about healthy diet and changing our lifestyle, and then talked about spiritual health, emotional health, and things like that. And we've introduced you this week to TriVita, our new sponsor.
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Alberto, thanks so much for being patient. From Georgia, welcome to the line of fire. Well, good afternoon, Dr. Brown. My question is on Psalms 12, verse 5 through 7. Mostly a lot of pastors like to say that verse 6 is referring to the words of God being preserved, but if you read the whole context, referring to people being preserved, say them, so when the song was written, God never said in the completed verse, I mean the Bible was preserved or the whole canon was preserved or a certain version was preserved. Can you explain that more? And I don't know a little bit about the question I got after this one, if you don't mind.
Yeah, sure, sure. So in Hebrew, verse 7, because the versification can differ. Let me just see if it's the same in English. Psalm 12. Yeah, so it's verse 6 in English and verse 7 in Hebrew. Yeah, so it is, it's clearly talking about the words of the Lord.
Amorot anonai, amorot haorot, keseth saruf ba'alil, arets, mizukach shivatayim. So the words of the Lord, pure words, silver purged in an earth and crucible refined sevenfold. So it is talking about his words for sure. Now by application, you can apply it to all of the word of God, but yeah, in context it wasn't talking about the canon of Scripture, it wasn't talking about future writings so much. That was not in the mind of the psalmist, but rather anything God has said is absolutely pure and 100% reliable and purged. So it is talking about the words of the Lord, not people.
There's no ambiguity in the Hebrew. In fact, it says it twice, the words of the Lord, those words are pure, etc. So can you apply it to the canon of Scripture? Yes, because the whole Bible is God's Word and therefore all of God's Word is pure and thoroughly tested and reliable. But in context, it wasn't a prediction about the whole Bible, rather just a statement about the words that God does speak and has spoken. So whatever came before that, the Torah or any prophetic words that were true, those would have qualified as God's words, etc. Yeah, but I heard some scholars that they said that the Word preserved them, in verse 2, God preserved them, the people, not the words.
No, no, that's not even a possibility. I don't know who said, do you remember who said that? It was on the John Ankerberg Show verses that King James only is in debate. No, it's not even, yeah, I mean, I just, the Hebrew's right in front of me.
I'm just going to read it really slowly. Amorot adonai, the words of Yahweh. Amorot teharot, or pure words. Keshef tzeruf ba'alil, so silver purged in an, ba'alil la'ar, it's, excuse me, silver purged in an earth in crucible.
Mizukach shivatayim, refined sevenfold. Doesn't even say them, there's no reference to them, so maybe you, maybe they're making a point that you didn't follow there. So, oh, okay, hang on, so we're talking about the next, the next, right, atadonai tishmerein tizireno minad. Okay, right, so you, O Lord, will keep them, guarding each from this age evermore. Yeah, so the next verse is talking about people, right, in terms of God will, ah, got it, I get your point here, sorry. Okay, so it's the next verse, you, O Lord, will keep them, guarding each from this age evermore. Right, so them would more likely refer to the people, so this is an argument about preserving the canon, right, so the words of the Lord are pure words, that can apply to the whole Bible 100%. As to the them in the next verse, yeah, that would apply to the people who are being besieged by the wicked, and God will keep those people. Okay, okay, now my, my next question is, you know, the, uh, 1 Peter, it says three say, poster, preach, preach, preach with, with love, right, like you say, don't, don't malign nobody, but how do you, how do you, how do you, how do you balance when the Bible says we shouldn't tickle people's ears?
Oh yeah, so, so, yeah, very, very, uh, very easily. I can speak the truth here, I, I can say to someone, you need to get right with God, you're destroying your life, you're hurting yourself, you're hurting your family, if you don't wake up and you don't repent, you're going to crash and burn and be lost forever. I could say that with tears, I could say that with grief in my heart, hopefully when I, when I rebuke, when I speak strongly, I'm doing it with love.
Maligning someone, you jerk, you idiot, maligning someone is what we see every single day on left-wing news and right-wing news and mocking this political leader and that political leader and being nasty in our, in our posts, in our communication and so on and so forth. So I'm not going to speak evil of anyone, you foolish idiot, what a kind of jerk are you, who, where, who, where did you even get the license to be born, you're, you know, just ugly stuff like that or the latest meme mocking somebody, that's, that's maligning. But speaking the truth in love, Jesus says in Revelation 3 19, as many as I love, I rebuke and discipline, therefore be zealous and repent. Those are words of love. Tickling years is, Hey, everything's good. You're going to be all right. No problem whatsoever. You just keep doing what you're doing and God will be happy.
That's tickling years. Hey, Alberto, thank you for your questions. And we're going to Jim, Mickey, Sandy, as promised, immediately on the other side of the break. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.
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Use the code Brown 40. All right, let us go to Jim in Chicago. Thanks for being patient and hanging in there. Welcome to the line of fire. No, thank you, Dr. Brown.
Appreciate the time you spent with Barbara. So John 20, 22 kind of a multifaceted question, but it just says that he breathed on him and said, receive you the Holy Spirit. So this is my question. The act, they had the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Prior to this, he gave them power to cast out demons, so that had to be through the Holy Spirit. And then how does that work with the Holy Spirit and the Old Testament?
Answer as much of it as you can or want to. Yeah. So number one, the enduement, say, in Luke 9, 1 with the 12, Matthew 10, 1 with the 12, Mark 6, 12 with the 12, or with the 70, Luke 10, 1. The impartation there, the enduement to drive out demons, heal the sick, seems to be something that was temporary as opposed to a permanent enduement.
That's the first thing. Second thing we know that as Jesus speaks to his disciples in John 14, 15, 16 about the coming Holy Spirit, that he's with you, but he will be in you, right? So the Holy Spirit was not yet indwelling the believers. So the Spirit would come upon the Old Testament prophets, but did not indwell them the way we are indwelt.
So there are really two main ways that you could understand John 20, 22, in my view. One is, at that moment, they received the indwelling Spirit when Jesus spoke that to them. Something happened at that moment that changed their relationship with God because now it is, you know, post-resurrection, right? The other view is that he was speaking it in anticipation. This was a prophetic act in anticipation of the Holy Spirit coming some days later at Pentecost.
Those are the only two things that make sense. One, they genuinely received something then at that moment, which would have been the indwelling of the Spirit that happens to every believer at new birth. We're indwelt by the Spirit and our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit, and then subsequent, the empowerment that came at Pentecost. So it's one of those two views, either that or he did it as a prophetic act, and then it was in anticipation of what would come at Pentecost. I don't see a viable view other than those two.
I totally got what you're saying. When the Holy Spirit came upon people, though, prior to that, didn't it still enable him to live for God, or what do you think of that? Well, it was more to do acts of power. In other words, just like the Holy Spirit coming on the apostles and the believers in Acts 2 was for signs and wonders and miracles, not so much for sanctification. It gave them boldness to preach and enable them to perform signs and wonders. So the Holy Spirit coming on someone in the Old Testament, they could fight battles like Samson supernaturally, or they could prophesy, etc.
So... There were no sanctified people, though, Dr. Brown? I'm just trying to understand it, so you're thinking there weren't... Well, not in every case. Samson wasn't, right? Right.
But like in some cases, you know, like where Jesus told Nathaniel, behold an Israelite in whom there is no guile. I always took that to mean, hey... No, the Holy Spirit was working in lives to sanctify people. Oh, perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, great. So the Holy Spirit was always at work to draw people to God and to help people overcome sin, etc. So the Spirit was at work, otherwise we couldn't do it, right? But we have now received something greater than before.
Yeah, great questions. I love the precision here. Thank you very much. All right, let us go to Mickey in Portland, Oregon. Thanks for holding. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown. Thanks for taking my call. This is Mickey calling. Shout out to the chat before I say anything, but thank you for taking my call. I have a question about theology for you.
Yeah. Okay, so I don't know if it's a type of Arianism, but what I'm running into are people who really do, they love Jesus, they read the Scriptures, but they're coming up with this idea that the Holy Spirit isn't the third person of the Trinity. So my question to you is, like, how to understand this? Would you say, in one extreme, would you say, that's heresy and so they're not a Christian, or would you say, and give them gracing, well, maybe their understanding and their teaching is just wrong, and then how do we address this with them? Right, so first, when we talk about Arianism, that has to do with belief in Jesus not being an eternal deity, that he was a created being. So it's not about the Holy Spirit as much as it's about the person of Jesus. But what I would first say is, God is the judge of individuals. I don't see anywhere in Scripture that says I must fully understand the person of the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, right? So if someone just had, they couldn't put together in their minds the idea of God's triunity, but they absolutely believed in Jesus as he is, the eternal deity, and took on human flesh, and died for our sins, and rose from the dead. Now that's the key thing that's going to save someone, not a full and proper understanding of the Holy Spirit. So if they genuinely seem to be born again, esteem the word of God, have right views about Jesus, then I would not be as concerned with their views about the Holy Spirit.
However, I would press in, because it's important we understand the full nature of God, I would ask them to read through John 14, 15, 16 with you, right? And say, okay, is this talking about someone distinct from the Father and the Son? Does the Father send the Son and the Son sends the Spirit? And the Spirit testifies about the Son and the Son glorifies the Father.
Isn't that Father, Son, isn't that Father, Son, and Spirit? I would, so that's John 14, 15, 16. I would take them to 2 Corinthians 13, 14, where Paul invokes the love of God, the grace of the Lord Jesus, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, right? I would ask him, are we fellowshipping with a being, or is it just like the wind? I would look at the gifts of the Spirit, which are the manifestations of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.
They include words of wisdom and knowledge. I would point to Acts 5, when Ananias and Sapphira are told by Peter, they didn't lie to man, but to God, and they lied to the Holy Spirit. I'd ask him, you know, who are you lying to unless this is divine being?
So, I would just, you know, press those different things. Hebrews 9 references the eternal Spirit, only God is eternal. So, I would just press those scriptures and say, what's the conclusion? And then, how do you baptize people? According to Matthew 28, 19, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right?
It's just foundational there. What is that saying, or is that not speaking of one God? There's only one God, period, end of subject, according to Scripture, only one true God, and he is Father, Son, and Spirit. You know, even at the baptism of Jesus, especially as opened up in Luke 3 and Matthew 3, that the Holy Spirit comes on him in the form of a dove, and the Father speaks, this is my Son whom I love, right? So, you have Father, Son, and Spirit even right there all actively doing things. But go through those scriptures if you missed any, if you didn't write everything down, you know, just go back, you're on YouTube, just go back and watch the end of this, and you can jot all these verses down. Those are the principle verses I would use, you know, even end of Ephesians 4, don't grieve the Spirit. If we're not talking about a personal being, how can we grieve him? How can we lie to him? How can we have fellowship with him? How can he have wisdom, knowledge, Old Testament? He teaches Israel and things like that.
It's all speaking of a being, yet there's only one God, again, Father, Son, and Spirit. So, hopefully, that can help you help your friends, all right? Yeah, thank you so much. Hey, hey, good luck with your debates.
I'll be praying for you. Those are some serious heavy duty debates, so I'll give you, protect your mind and give you rest, and thank you for everything that you do. All right.
Thank you so much. All right, hey, we are out of time. I wish, well, I'll tell you what, let me just, Sandy, in Jamestown, if you could just throw out your question real quick, maybe I can answer real quick.
Okay, hey, thank you for taking my call. My question is about the Appeal to Heaven flag, and I'd just like your insight on that, and my question is, is it associated with some type of ideology or theology that would do harm to a believer's Christian witness if they display it? Okay, so, the early flag in American history and a flag that would be God-oriented. If you're saying, I believe that there are some important Christian roots in America, and we are appealing to God to have mercy on us and to help restore those roots, that's one thing. If you're saying that America has a promised destiny to be a Christian nation, and I'm praying for that, that to me is overstepping things because I don't believe that there is a nation on the earth other than Israel with whom God himself made a specific covenant. That could potentially tie into Christian nationalism in an unhealthy sense of the word, so you have to sort out on the witness end what it conveys and what you're actually praying using that flag. All right, God bless. Great being with you.
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