Exposing Black Hebrew Israelite Myths

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Everything normal as always. Jewish related calls today. Any Jewish related question of any kind, give me a call.

866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. I do want you to know I've heard from a number of Hebrew Israelite leaders about having debates. One's already put out a video accepting my offer to debate. So I'm going to tell you some of the folks I've heard from. Those that have gone public, I'll mention their names publicly. Others I'll just describe what they've talked about without mentioning their names publicly because they've just reached out to me privately.

But by all means, let's put the issues on the table. I know that there are many different groups out there identifying as Hebrew Israelites and some are more moderate and some are more radical. And some have beliefs that are very much in keeping with biblical beliefs about salvation through the blood of Yeshua and others with beliefs that are very radical and very different. But for the sake of truth, for those that are really looking for truth, those that want truth, we'll pursue it together.

For those who won't listen to, quote, a white Edomite devil, well, I just pray for them. They're in deception. What they believe is factually wrong. They need to really come to know the one true God, the Most High, and receive forgiveness of sins and new life and find the truth. But others are seeking. Others are more moderate. So whatever we can do constructively, we want to do to help as this is an issue, a question, a Hebrew Israelite question that's really come to the surface.

Our videos commenting us in recent weeks have gotten a lot of attention. So I'm not going to talk about this all the time, but I want to devote one more Thursday to talking about a number of Hebrew Israelite myths. So here's what I ask everyone listening for. Just pursue the truth. Pursue the truth, okay? There are things that I might hold to that are different than what you hold to and someone else holds to something different.

How do we sort it out? With all your heart before God, pursue the truth and tell them I only want the truth wherever it leads, whatever the cost, whatever the consequence. All right. And Patrick, thanks for calling.

I will get you to be a little later in the show, sir, but I see you here and I do want to speak with you. All right. So let me debunk one of the silliest Hebrew Israelite myths. And when I say this, I don't want to offend those who don't hold to these things. So I know some of you hold to this and some of you don't, all right? So those that don't, I don't want to insult you by painting with a broad brush.

I know some of you do hold these things, some don't. So if the shoe fits, wear it. So one of the silliest, most ridiculous things I've heard is, well, people like you, you say you're Jewish. You see, ish, it's not really being a Jew, it's Jew-ish. So for example, if I say he's not really tall, he's kind of tall-ish.

So it's not really tall, it's kind of tall. So you're saying, even by saying ish, Jew-ish, you're not really a Jew, you're kind of like a Jew. That is complete, utter, absolute nonsense and 100% based on ignorance.

I hate to be so blunt, all right? So if you're from England, you are English. If you're from Sweden, you are Swedish. If you're from Denmark, you are Danish. If you're from Spain, you are Spanish. If you're from the people of the Jews, you are Jewish. Here, just for the actual dictionary definition, let's put up this slide.

The I-H-S-H suffix, a suffix from place, used to form adjectives and nouns that say what country or area a person, thing, or language comes from. So this comes from the Jews, so we are Jew-ish. All right, so please don't use that anymore. That's utterly absurd.

Unless you want to say someone who's English is not really from England, they're just kind of like ishy from that. Please, drop it. If you ever use that argument, drop it. Done with it. And again, I don't want to insult those that don't hold to nonsense like that.

But those who do, throw it out. It's an insult to your argument. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of when Rudy Giuliani was mayor of New York and one of these Hebrew Israelites was on the street saying, you see, you see, it's all Jewish. Jews control everything. And someone said, well, the mayor of the city, Rudy Giuliani, he's not a Jew. And the guy said, Juliana, Jew, Jew, Juliana, did you hear it?

It's like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. Spell differently, different words, different names. Anyway, okay. So there's a text.

The whole video is now getting tens of thousands of views. There's a text from Midrash literature. This is homiletical rabbinic literature written over many centuries of time.

There's a text that's been quoted a lot and pointed to say, look, even the Talmud acknowledges that Israelites were originally black. Okay. First thing, Midrash, the Midrash they're talking about called Pirkei Derabe Eliezer is not Talmud, just to make that clear. All right. This is separate Midrash literature and it's actually hundreds of years after the Talmud.

That's the first thing. And Midrash is Midrash. It's storytelling. Midrash is not legal data. Midrash is not even like official Bible interpretation. Midrash is storytelling. Midrash is weaving legends and myths together and telling interesting stories and it's very creative.

There's all kinds of wild stuff. All right. But what does Pirkei Derabe Eliezer say? First thing, you'll hear it said that it is first or second century. Let me just bring you to a rabbinic website.

Okay. So this believes in tradition, the earliest possible dating of things. So the Sepharia website where it refers to Pirkei Derabe Eliezer, let's bring that up and take a look at it. It says this composed, it's Talmudic Israel Babylon. So it's not part of the Talmud. It's part of this larger culture.

Between 630 and 1,030 of the common error. All right. So this is after the composition of the Talmud. And it says Pirkei Derabe Eliezer, chapters of Rabbi Eliezer, is a midrash that retells and expands upon the stories of the Torah from the creation of the world through the story of Miriam's leprosy. It incorporates discussion on topics like redemption, Messiah, and calculating the end of days, traditionally considered to have been altered by Rabbi Eliezer Ben Harkanis in the time period of the Mishnah, first, second century. You see, the work was likely edited in the eighth or ninth century.

So although it's attributed to Rabbi Eliezer in the first or second century, it's actually written in its final form many centuries later. But let's just say fine. Let's say, okay, fine.

It was first or second century. Again, it's not. It's many centuries later. But let's just say fine.

It was. So let's take a look at what the text says. Now remember, you'll find everything in midrash.

Let's go to the actual slide now of chapter 24 in Pirkei Derabe Eliezer. And all right, I'll just start in verse one. All right, so Noah brought his sons and his grandsons. He blessed them with their several settlements and he gave them as an inheritance all the earth. So he blesses Shem. So he makes them dark and pleasant, dark and beautiful. All the colors of Shem. So he blesses Ham and his sons by making them dark like the raven.

And he gave them the portion by the sea, the coast of the sea. And then, and he blessed Japhet and his sons and made them all white. All right, so we can take that off the screen now. So the question is, is this saying that the Shemites, right, the Semites of whom the children of Israel descend, that God made them black?

If that's what it says, fine. It's not an issue to me. We understand the original Israelites were not white Europeans.

We fully understand that. It is as the Jewish people migrated around the world and intermarried that we changed in color. That's why you have Indian Jews. That's why you have Chinese Jews. That's why you have African Jews.

That's why you have German Jews, American Jews, because we've intermingled with the various societies as people converted to Judaism and married in. So again, this is just historically known. It can all be traced linguistically. It can be traced historically. It can be traced by settlement.

It can be traced by literature, etc. But when I asked a rabbi colleague of mine, I said, how do you read this? What do you understand this to mean? This is what he said.

We'll put this slide up. He says the text contrasts three things. Japhet is white, that is European. Cham is black, like a raven, that is African. Shem is in between, dark, but not like a raven. That is a good description of Middle Eastern Jews and Arabs. So there's a contrast between cherim, like a raven, dark or black like a raven, and cherim v'naim, black or dark and beautiful or comely.

So there's a distinction between them. So what do we know about the colors of the people of the Middle East? They would be brown-skinned, they would be darker than me, but they would be lighter than, say, a black person from Sudan or from Ethiopia.

So that's the contrast. It's not saying that the Shemites were Negro or African there. It's contrasting their skin with the skin of Africans, their color. So they're dark. Again, the original Israelites were not white-skinned Europeans.

We understand that. This is through the Jewish people spreading all around the world, but they also weren't black Africans. And this very text that you see, it bruises, it bruises. All it says is that one was darker than the other. So they were brown-skinned people, they were darker-skinned people than the whites, but they weren't as dark-skinned people as the blacks of Africa. Now, there's another text from the Mishnah, which is even more explicit.

And I want you to see, I'm just looking at the clock, we've got time to get into this. So it's Mishnah Nigaim. So this is dealing with leprosy, skin diseases, things like that.

Chapter 2 and Mishnah 1, so the first legal discussion there. And it says this, So what is it saying there? Translate. The bright spot, it's talking about leprous skin condition. The bright spot in a German appears as dull white. And the dull white spot in an Ethiopian appears as bright white. Rabbi Ishmael says, The children of Israel, may I be an atonement for them, are like boxwood.

So scroll that up a little bit as you're looking at this. The children of Israel, and it says, may I be an atonement for them, this idea that the righteous can be an atonement for the rest of the nation. He says, they are like boxwood, which would be a brownish color. Neither black nor white, but they have an intermediate shade. So the Germans, the Germans are white, the Ethiopians are black, and the children of Israel are boxwood. So if you want to say, well, what does the Talmud say? This is part of the Talmud. What does the Talmud say about skin color?

That they were Middle Eastern brown skinned people, not black, not white. That's what it says. We'll be right back. May His grace and His face shine upon you. As thoroughly Jewish Thursday, this is Michael Brown, delighted to be with you.

866-348-7884. I will get to the phones shortly, and I'm going to look at two more rabbinic texts. And the purpose of looking at these texts is to basically tell you, be very careful before you say, well, the Talmud says this or the Talmud says that, because it may say five things against your opinion and one for them.

And you may end up pointing more fingers against yourself than at others, all right? But I just want to let you know some of the folks that we've heard from in terms of having a debate. So this was through Vocab Malone. Alhazar Ben Loya said, no, we don't need that text up there. We've got a very zealous team putting some text up for me.

So this, guys, you don't have this. Alhazar Ben Loya says he accepts and wants to debate me, prefer historical rather than theological themes. So based on his proposal, I came back saying, okay, let's debate these two subjects, and we'll do full back-to-back debates, live stream, and hoping for sometime early next year, within the first couple of months next year. So since he wants to talk about historical Jewish people, great. So I proposed, are there Jews from every nation, including the continents of Africa and Europe? So let's debate that. Is he saying there are no Jews from Europe? Is he saying that all Jews like me are not really Jews? What does history say?

That'd be part one. And part two, Lashawan Kaddash, Abba Bivens, and the language of the Bible, how was Hebrew originally written, spoken, and utilized in ancient times? Let's discuss ancient Hebrew.

How it really operated, how it was pronounced, how it was understood. Let's get into a heavy-duty Semitic discussion. So that's my proposal, those two. Now, I offered him debates on other subjects based on his own circles, Hebrews like circles, such as, will all nations go into slavery and the world end by thermonuclear destruction?

Would you like to debate that? Are there modern-day apostles, prophets today, and which organizations could true prophets and apostles not lead? Get their views on that. Is reincarnation biblical? Are there people today who have been identified as people of old? How do we know? Is the kingdom only for Israel?

Will it be for all nations? Is the virgin birth legitimate, biblical, and necessary for the salvation of Israel? What is the man of the Lord? What are the qualities, actions, and beliefs of one? Which Israelite school has the whole truth? What is the history of marriage, and how does the Bible define it? How should the righteous live it out today? And is the devil a spiritual being or a nation of people?

What does the Scripture declare? So if he wants to get into any of those, we can, but otherwise, the first two, these are things we've talked about, things supposedly he's an expert in, so God willing, we'll be setting that up. Then this was a comment from someone who identified as a sergeant in the school of the Sicari. Love the livestream, Dr. Brown. Thank you for addressing the situation, not hiding from it. I'm a sergeant in the school of the Sicari, and leadership would like to have a discussion with you, not so much of a debate.

Happy to do it. We can do it off the air, just do a Zoom call together, so we're face to face in that regard. So we replied via social media, because that was posted on social media. We replied to that. We were supposed to reply to it.

Hopefully we did. So feel free to reach out. If that's you, reach out. Let's follow through.

Love to do it. And then, not giving the names here, this is another one who wants to debate me, would like to discuss the Bible comes from Ethiopia, why the Jesus Christ story never happened, and that this man himself is the Messiah. He is proclaiming himself on video, I am he. So I said, well, come on, I'll do an interview. Let's introduce you to the whole world.

So that's another one. Patrick is waiting on the phone, so we're going to get to him soon. Another is an elder, I won't mention the name of the ministry, because again, this was private contact. He said he's the son of a rabbi, translated to the book of Enoch from Hebrew to English, translated various biblical texts. So I said, okay, what would you like to debate? And then another, I was told you're looking to have a debate with black Hebrews, I'm happy to talk with you.

I live in London, but can talk to you via Skype. I'm the author of the only books on the planet that prove black people's Hebrew identity. So we're getting back to all these, saying, okay, let's set this up, let's do it.

All right, so the last text that I want to get to, and then I'm going to go to the phone, starting with Patrick, whom I just mentioned a moment ago. If you want to say, well the Talmud says the original Israelites were black, which number one, the Talmud doesn't say that, and number two, the Midrash does not say black like black African, but black as in darker than white, okay? So there's the in-between color there, which again, we saw a text from the Mishnah and Talmud, Naga'im, saying that the Israelites were like boxwood, right?

So that'd be brown-skinned people like you see in the Middle East today, as opposed to African blacks, as opposed to European whites, all right? So if you want to cite the Talmud then, here's something from the Jerusalem Talmud, and it says this, it's talking about a woman that's accused of committing adultery, and she goes through the whole rite of adultery, it says she wasn't guilty. It was stated, Rabbi Yehudah says in the name of Rabbi Elazar ben Matias, it says, but if the woman was not impure but was pure, would we not know that if she was not impure she was pure?

Why does the verse say but she was pure? Only that at the end the omnipresent rewards her for the abuse that if she was sterile she will become pregnant. If she was having difficult births she will have easy ones. If she had ugly children she'll have good-looking ones. Black ones she'll have white ones.

Short ones she'll have tall ones. Females she'll have males. Single children she'll have twins. All right, so this text is saying that as a reward for the woman being falsely accused that if she couldn't have children she'll have children, that if the births were hard the next births will be easy. If she was having ugly children she'll have good-looking children. If she was having black children she'll have white children. If she was having short children she'll have tall children. If she was having females she'll have males.

If she was having single children she'll have twins. If anything this would speak disparagingly of black color. So you want to quote the Talmud, well now the Talmud is speaking disparagingly of black color. Now one of my rabbi colleagues that analyzed the text said I think black and white are just symbolic here.

I don't even take them literally. But if you want to call the Talmud and say you see, you see it supports the fact that Israelites were black. No, quite the contrary.

It's actually negative here. One more text for you. This is also the Jerusalem Talmud. So this is completed earlier than the Babylonian Talmud. And this is from Tatanit, the previous one was from Sotah.

This is Tatanit. Okay so it's talking about certain animals or people had sex on the ark and they were prohibited from doing that and as a result they were judged. On his entrance to the ark Noah was forbidden sexual relations. What was the reason you shall not come into the ark? You, your sons, your wife, your sons' wives. On his exit sexual relations were forbidden.

What is the reason? Leave the ark, you, your wife, your sons, and your sons' wives with you. So it's just midrashic interpretations of the biblical text. Rabbi Shihabar Abba says, by their families they left the ark. Since they refrained from their relationships they merited to be saved from the deluge. You may know that since it was stated Ham, the dog, and the raven misbehaved. So allegedly they all engaged in sexual acts of some kind on the ark and therefore they were cursed. Ham exited charcoal colors. So he was cursed by his skin being turned dark.

So the Africans. The dog exited public in his relations. In other words the way he copulates with a female dog. The raven exited different from the creatures that they allegedly spit in the other bird's mouth to procreate anyway. This is something again that would speak of being dark or black in a negative way. Now I'm not a Talmudic Jew. The Talmud is not my authority.

The midrash is not my authority. There are many beautiful traditions there. There are many fascinating traditions. The one thing that's said with any authority was that the children of Israel are boxwood in color, not like the Africans and not like the Europeans. Not like the Germans, not like the Ethiopians or the people of Sudan.

Kush can refer to Sudan or Ethiopia depending on what the reference is. In any case, that's the only official statement. The point I'm making is if you want to point to Pirkei Dei Rebbe Eliezer and say oh you see it says the original Israelites were black but even there it's making a clear contrast between them and the blacks of Africa who are black like a raven. Right well then you have these other texts speaking disparagingly of being black and speaking positively of being white.

Alright so what's the point? You don't want to use the Talmud to make these statements about blackness being good or blackness being bad because it's not what it's about. If you use it you're going to end up with anti-black statements not positive black statements if you're using it in that way. The only thing you can say is that for Talmudic Jews it was understood that the Israelites were at that time first second century and in their history they were Middle Eastern brown-skinned people like boxwood. Not like the blacks of Africa, not like the whites of Europe.

That's all. How do they end up black? How do they end up white?

Again very simple. There are Jews from every continent, there are Jews from countries all around the world, there are Jews with different color, different language because of living in countries for long periods of time and then intermarrying where the people marry in that's the important thing they convert to Judaism and marry and you live there long enough you intermarry enough you start to look like the people there. And by the way the Ashkenazi Jews ultimately go back to Jews of Italy. Jews that had lived in Italy for centuries and then 97,000 Jews were sold into slavery to Rome after the fall of Jerusalem and then they there eventually get their freedom so that you have a large Jewish community intermarrying over centuries with the Italian community and retaining their Jewish identities people convert to Judaism and then moving from there to Germany and other countries. That's the origin of Ashkenazi and in fact it's been demonstrated with a massive DNA studies it's absolutely fascinating but that's been demonstrated and the same way as the tribes of Israel and the Jewish people scattered all around the world and lived in Africa. That gives root to the black Jews.

So yes there are black Jews, there are white Jews, not all whites are Jews, not all blacks are Jews, most whites are not Jews, most blacks are not Jews. But here's the thing for me, my identity is found in Yeshua. My identity is not found in being a man, is not found in being a Jew, is not found in being an American, it's found in being in Yeshua, it's found in having my sins forgiven, it's found in having been washed with the blood and cleansed from my guilt and come into a living relationship with God when by His grace and power I can live righteously and do the will of God.

That's where my identity is, all the other things are ultimately secondary. Anyway, facts, facts, that's all we're giving you, text, information. We come back, we're going straight to the phones, good time to call now, 866-348-7884. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-344-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

To the Line of Fire, Thursday, Michael Brown, glad to be with you. Have you downloaded our app? No? It's Ask Dr. Brown Ministries, ASK DR Brown Ministries on Apple or Android, Google platforms.

I've been using it just to access articles and send links to people and it's a great, great user-friendly, rich app with thousands of hours of free resources. So make sure you download it, Ask Dr. Brown Ministries. All right, we go to the phones and we start with Patrick in Cleveland, Ohio. Hey, thank you, sir, for calling the Line of Fire. Take a minute to introduce yourself, okay? Okay, okay. Shalom, grace and peace, all praises to the Most High and His Son, Yeshua Hamashiach, first and foremost.

My name is Patrick Myers. I also go as a yahoo Yisrael, I'm a musical artist and historian in the Israelite community. So yeah, and I wanted to talk to you because I feel like this topic is so big. I feel like what the Most High is doing with this topic is bringing us closer to that next step of world peace and ending racism.

So let me just ask you this so we can put you in the right place here. So just like there are many different groups that say they're Christian and it's a massive range that can mean almost anything depending on who says they're Christian. And then within Judaism, you've got from Reform Reconstructionists on one side to ultra-orthodox Haredi Hasidic on the other side. So there are also lots of different Hebrew Israelite movements. Even in your pronunciation of Hebrew, you set yourself apart. So in your view, Patrick, what do you prefer, Patrick or Azariah? You can call me as a yahoo.

Okay, I'll say yahoo. Okay, great. So what groups in your view are extreme and not representative of mainstream Hebrew Israelite theology? Well, Hebrew is a life where we're a people group. So just like with all people groups like Europeans, for example, you're going to get British people.

You're going to have a whole bunch of different beliefs. So there's people who identify as Hebrew Israelite but could be Muslim. So with that, there are groups, it's kind of like a genealogy, they're called One West in the community. But those are brands of Israelites who broke from a more orthodox type. It was a group beforehand who were more orthodox Jews and they broke off and they became messianic, but they also became more radicalized. But the radicalization came from years of trying to merge with orthodox Jewry and not really being accepted. More so the Reform community kind of was more accepting of them, but I feel like some of that left bad taste in their mouths and they became angry. A lot of the pieces and stuff I feel stem from just the anger and the history of our people and oppression and losing our history and our culture, identity, language, all of that. What would you say, the groups that are known to be standing on the street corners yelling and saying the white man is a manifestation of Satan, that kind of thing, would those be One West people?

That's more so their tradition. Some of them might have a chart with some truth in it and some untruth in it because we do know Israelites were in Spain and Portugal and some of them went into captivity, some of those became colonialists. So yeah, there are tribes of Israel mixed within Spanish people, African people, Negroes, who I do believe are majority Israelite people, but we can get into that as well.

So we have a strong difference on that. You're saying the majority of Africans would be Israelite and I would say the vast majority would be not, just like the vast majority of whites would not be Israelite origin. What about the Sicari group? How would you characterize them? The Sicari group, I think they really match the name.

They kind of remind me of the historical Sicari. They go real hard for their people. They love Israel and they really want to see Israel back on their feet. That means the black community. When you're saying that, that means the African black community. I wouldn't say Israel, I mean the black community, but I also mean Israel as a whole because as more of the knowledge and research and DNA studies that are unbiased continue to come out and if they really love truth, they will accept the truth as it comes out. I think that European Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Africans have a common origin.

This is also genetically proven. We would agree on that, that genetically, Ashkenazi Jews can trace their heritage back to Israel. There are African Jews that can trace their heritage back.

There are, as you mentioned, the Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, those even more naturally, especially Mizrahi being in the Middle East. Obviously, we'll have some differences historically, but your position then, as far as you know, and for everyone that's Hebrew Israelite, this is Patrick representing his view and his understanding based on his own history. I understand he's not speaking for everybody. He's speaking for himself and the movement that he's part of.

But Patrick, in your view, what percentage is the wrong thing? In your camp, so someone like me, I'm looked at as a fellow Israelite Jew just with different skin color and different history. How do we come to get into right relationship with God? Who is Yeshua and how do we get our sins forgiven?

It's good that you brought it back to this area because this is how I got introduced to you. Well, as I started to come into the proof of the Gospel, knowing that Mashiach is divine, because a lot of the One West tradition teaches is that Joseph had a hand in the birth of Mashiach, which I vehemently disagree with. And it was kind of hard to combat some of those traditions until I found out a lot of the apologetics that was going on already in the Jewish community. Because when you see some of the arguments in the Hebrew community, it's the same arguments that the Orthodox is coming to the Messianic with. So Mashiach is the way to salvation, Yeshua is salvation, and He gives us unlimited atonement. And that's my belief in the Scriptures. That's what the Gospel teaches, because we can't do the whole Torah perfectly. Now as it is alike, the Torah is important to us because we lost our whole culture and identity during slavery. So this gives us our culture, it gives us our rooting, a way to raise our family.

Holidays that wasn't given to us by a group or in a way that gives us a bad memory. Some of this stuff was introduced to us through slavery. So yeah, that's the thing with Torah. So a lot of the One Westernists feel like the Torah is the salvation. It's not the salvation. Yeshua is the salvation, but the Torah is our culture, our heritage.

And coming back to that, it's going to help our people get out of the situation that our people are in. In that respect, it would be similar to a Messianic Jew who says we understand Torah is not for salvation, but this is our heritage and it connects us with our people. And it gives us a cycle of life in which we can raise our children, and that can help preserve their Jewish-slash-Israelite identity. So we don't accept the traditions of the rabbis as binding. We may appreciate some of them, but we don't submit to the tradition of the synagogue. We interpret Torah in the light of the New Covenant, but many Messianic Jews would be in harmony with you and of course salvation only through Yeshua. So Patrick, how mainstream would you say your views are in the Hebrew-Israelite community? Again, this is just your view and it's impossible to quantify this exactly. But are you a real outlier in being in so much harmony with someone like me and even other Christians on many of these points? Or is this more common than the One West stuff?

It's really hard to say without real pulling. As I mentioned earlier, I make music, so I have somewhat of a listening base. So somewhat of an influence in the culture, but not only me, but there's also other groups who speak similar to this. They might not be found on the street.

They might be somebody you work with or your co-husband or something. But they're not going to be as publicized on media because they're not as exciting. And often the news that we go for is bad news and controversial news. So let me say this. When I talk about a show debunking Hebrew-Israelite myths, that may offend some of you like Patrick because you say, I don't believe that. That's not what I hold to or that's not my viewpoint.

So please understand I get that. I'm not painting with a broad brush. I'm saying these are some of the myths that you're hearing from some prominent Hebrew-Israelites and we're rebutting them. If I could interject, I would like to say that it's interesting because I disagree with Bacari, for example.

I disagree with him on a lot of theological things. But when it comes to historical things, we might have a lot more agreement. For example, the traditions that you have brought out earlier, from an Israelite perspective, we look at those traditions differently.

They're not binding, but we look at those differently. So your rebuttal was excellent, but not for an Israelite. For an Israelite, for example, in the Eliezer, he talks about… Let's stay right there. And then we'll go one more minute on the other side of the break and I want to get to other callers. But Patrick, I've said for years, Hebrew-Israelites call.

I'd love to talk to him. So I'm doing that for everything. And thank you for your gracious spirit, man. It's a joy talking to you. We'll be right back and we'll get to the rest of your calls on the other side of the break. Thanks for joining us, friends, on the Line of Fire.

Michael Brown, welcome back to Thirdly Jewish Thursday. Alright, Patrick, let me just give you one more minute. We can always talk, God willing, in the future, get into this in more depth. But again, to me, I'm just looking at this factually, linguistically, philologically. What does the text say?

What do the words mean? But you're saying that… And again, the question's not my opinion, your opinion, but what does the text say? That's why I got my PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures, just to dig into the words themselves. But how are you saying a Hebrew-Israelite would read this that would be different? Okay, so in the black community, we have colorism, but not just in the black community. Back in Africa, there's multiple ethnic groups. So when we see ham, when it talks about ham and it says black like a raisin, we do not equate that to us. We look at the stem as us as being dark but beautiful because not only was that something that our grandparents were saying back in the civil rights and all of that, but the ham as a raisin, we would connect those more with an erotic-type group in Africa. But these are your people that's Nile Valley people, like the Sudanese people, like you mentioned. But like the Dinka, for example, or the Near people, these are very dark people.

They're black, like actually black. That I understand. In other words, I understand how you could say it's between two different black peoples in Africa, lighter color, darker color.

I understand how you could do that. My point is it's Midrash, number one, and Midrash says all kinds of things. And you have other Talmudic passages that make black being a bad thing, a negative thing. So that's what I was saying.

If you want to use one text, you've got three other texts going the other direction. But how do Hebrew Israelites interpret Mishneh Nagaim, not like Germans, so not like white Europeans, not like the Kushites, not like black Africans, but boxwood, it's an intermediate, it's a brown color, a light brown color. How is that understood? It will be similar because the original Kushites and our famous thought would be like a Nilotic group. Even genetically, you would have, for example, your Y chromosome, which is your father's two sons. DNA-wise, we as the so-called Negroes or West African Niger-Congo people are more similar to Arabs than to Nilotic people. They would be groups A and B.

We would be groups E. And that's why you also see groups B within Ashkenazi Jews, within Sephardic Jews, within Samaritan Levites, who are 100% E. So I appreciate that the key thing is when people use the broad stroke approach and say, this text proves that text, you really don't want to use rabbinic texts in that way. The statement in nigaim is the most important because it's a legal thing and it's discussing how this leprous white skin disease appears, and depending on the flesh color. So there is a clear contrast between, it's not nuances within black skin people, but black skin, white skin, and something in between.

So again, your in between is going to come out sounding differently. I just encourage folks to say, if you're going to use rabbinic literature, remember that sometimes blackness is a negative and even looked at as a curse and whiteness is something positive. So what are you going to make out of that? Is it symbolic or is it to be taken literally? If it was to be taken literally, does it mean that the Talmud is pro-white, anti-black?

It wasn't even a largely white culture then, right? So it's misinterpreting the text. But Patrick, thank you. Thank you for the nuanced discussion. Let's continue to interact, God willing, in the future. But thank you for the call and for clarifying that many Hebrew Israelites are very different from the groups on the street and hold to Basic Doctrine of Salvation through Yeshua, the Messiah. So thank you, sir, for the call and for interacting on these other points and giving your viewpoint. I very much appreciate it. All right, let's go to Aaron. Thanks for holding, Aaron, in Washington State.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, how are you doing today? I'm doing well, thanks, sir. Can you hear me pretty good, man?

I'm outside working. No, I can hear you. I can hear you. Okay, good. Go ahead. Oh, I just had a question and also had a proposition for you.

Which one would you like first, man? Uh, proposition. So, I'm a debater myself. I try to do a lot of debates, but they're very slim these days. I'm what you would consider a Tanakh-only follower.

I am so-called black. I'm not a part of any camp. I've never ever been a part of any camp. As a matter of fact, I've done street debates with camps like Sakari out here. I did a debate in person with one of their top people, Ekin Hakaf. I just did a debate with Vocab Malone on a 400-year prophecy earlier this year. So, my proposition for you would be to request a debate because I literally can't find any these days. And a lot of the people, even some that I've named, even some of the organizations, I debate against camp doctrine or One-West doctrine, which I do believe is kind of harmonic with Christianity and with Christian doctrine. I believe personally, and this is a personal belief, that a lot of the One-West leaders choose to debate Christians and rabbis who believe in the Messiah or in individual Messiah because there's not much to argue with.

I believe that they have a lot of similarities. So, there's one topic in particular. I know that a lot of topics are popular, specifically the whole race deal. I think this one topic would pretty much bring a lot of clarity to our understanding. I wanted to debate if Rome actually did siege Jerusalem according to the Scriptures, and I would negate that point. And I can't find anybody that would even entertain that debate. I've asked a lot of people, and most people have all the history on their side.

They have Orthodox history, they have the Gospels on their side wholeheartedly, but my contention is that the Scriptures in Tanakh do not support that idea. All right, so let me suggest this, okay? Because I get lots of people wanting to debate me, and there's only so much time in the day. I have, like many, a very, very intensely busy schedule. But I would gladly host that on the radio one day, say on a Thursday, and what we'd agree to is it has to be shorter time frames.

You know what I'm saying? It would have to be, okay, make your opening statement in six minutes, here's my opening statement, then rebuttal five minutes, and then kind of go back and forth in that regard. So to do it during a show in a shorter time period would be a more realistic thing. And if you wanted to debate that, yeah, I mean, obviously, I can't imagine how anyone would deny the massive historical support for that on every level, from archaeological to secular literature, Josephus and the Gospels, of course, and the references through history, so obviously, you've got your argument there. So let's do this then, all right? If you just reach out to the, go to AskDirectorBrown.org, there's something that says contact, just say you're the Aaron that talked with me, we'll set up God willing on a Thursday in the new year, and we'll debate the subject, all right?

I appreciate that, man, and I appreciate how you do dialogues and debates with people, because a lot of people don't do that. But here's my question for you, though. It revolves around Leviticus 26. Us so-called black people in diaspora, we know that we fulfill Leviticus 26, and also that it hasn't been fulfilled ever before, seeing how we do. Leviticus 26 shows that the Israelites, or the Hebrews, will be scattered to nations that they don't know, and their land will be made desolate while they are in these nations, and then it shows that they will turn away from what their forefathers did, and they will come back to their nationality, their culture, their customs, in the lands which carried them away. My first point is that that's never been fulfilled.

Well, that would be my question. When would you believe that was fulfilled? Number one, yes, so we just have like a minute before the break, and listen, those of you who've been patiently holding that I didn't get to, if you're able to call in tomorrow, we're just looking at your names, we've got you here, if you're able to call in tomorrow, I'll get you as early as I can in the show, so my apologies for, because I took extra time with other callers, obviously we can't get to everyone every day. But yeah, Aaron, it's, number one, clearly been fulfilled by Jewish people who have been scattered around the world and kicked out of nation after nation after nation, specifically because we are Jews and didn't go along with Christian or Muslim practices, that's number one. Number two, if we fall short, there is the promise of repent and scabble, restore, but there is Ezekiel 36 and other passages that because God's name is being blasphemed, that even in our sin, he'll bring us back to the land and there he'll cleanse us. So that's what happened, the restoration of the Jewish people from all around the world back to the land of Israel is unprecedented. We were scattered around the world, Satan tried to wipe us out around the world, God kept us as a remnant around the world just as he promised, brought us back to the land. If you're talking about blacks, how many hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of blacks are there in the world today? Africa alone is what, 700 plus million, so that's hardly a tiny remnant, whereas the Jewish people about 14 million. So brought back to the land, and this was not a primarily spiritual movement, and now back in the land, more and more Jews turning to the Messiah, from maybe 20 at the founding of Israel to maybe 30,000 today. So it is unfolding, it is being fulfilled. But let's follow through and may the Lord's truth prevail, a joy to be with each of you.