Why Cessationism Will Cease

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Well, this may surprise you, friends, but I believe the day is coming when cessationism will cease. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Thank you so much for tuning in to The Line of Fire. 866-348-7884. The phone lines were flooded yesterday as we got your feedback as to whether you would attend a same-sex wedding ceremony. Great discussion that we had. A lot of interaction online as well, but we're switching subjects today, and I want to open the phone lines to anything you want to ask me about. I will get to some calls a little later in the show.

866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. But we're talking about another biblical subject today, but one not as directly related to the culture wars. Something more directed to our larger spiritual life and our witness in this world. I'll tell you why I have it on my heart to talk about this today, but I want to make something absolutely clear. As followers of Jesus, we can have differences over the things we're going to talk about today.

As followers of Jesus, we can have deep differences based on our understanding of what Scripture says, and yet we don't divide over these things. So, in anything that I say, I don't mean to sound demeaning, condescending. I don't mean to speak of a superior spirituality and a lesser spirituality and things like that.

I'm making no such judgment. I'm simply talking about what I understand the Spirit is doing in the earth today and what I understand the Word of God to say regarding the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit in terms of various gifts like prophecy, tongues, gifts of healing, faith. Why I believe that the view that says that they are not for today, the cessationist position, why I believe that in the years ahead, I'm not putting any time frame on this, I'm not giving a prediction of specific dates, but in the years, the decades ahead, why I believe increasingly, cessationism will cease. Again, I'm going to say some things very plainly, but I don't mean to offend those who differ. And if you want to differ with me, by all means, pick up the phone and give me a call if you're able to.

866-34-TRUTH. Okay, I have talked over the years about why I am a continuationist, why I'm a charismatic Pentecostal, why I believe that these gifts of the Spirit still continue in operation until today. Now, all Christians believe the Holy Spirit continues to move today. All Christians believe that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. All Christians believe that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and empowered by the Spirit to live godly lives. All Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is working in the earth to draw people to Jesus and to convict of sin and things like that. So, I am not saying that if you're a cessationist, you don't believe that the Spirit is active in the world today.

No, I understand that you do. The question is, in what ways is he active? Is he also active in a regular basis on healing the sick? Is he also active in prophetic words? Is he also active in speaking in tongues and giving believers, quote, a prayer language? Is he active in those ways? The reason that I dogmatically say yes is because of the testimony of Scripture.

I've gotten into that before. I have a whole chapter in my book, Authentic Fire, which was a gracious response to Pastor John MacArthur's Strange Fire. I have a whole chapter called Sola Scriptura, and therefore charismatic. In other words, if I never spoke in tongues myself, if I never saw a sick person healed myself, I would still believe these things were for today based on what is written in the word of God.

That's my ultimate foundation. And again, no offense intended, no condescending tone in anything I'm saying, but I do not believe there is any scriptural basis for cessationism. In other words, if you put a thousand believers in a thousand rooms and locked them in the rooms with food and drink and a Bible, and they could read the Bible fluently in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek in the original languages, and they read the Bible day and night for 10 years, they had no idea what churches believed on various doctrines, I don't believe any of them would come out cessationists saying that these things are not for today.

Maybe one or two might, but honestly, I don't think they'd come out that way. Now, I think you'd have debate about aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism. I think you'd have debate about aspects of other doctrinal differences within the body. I don't think everyone would have the same view about the end times, aspects of the return of Jesus, other things like that. But this, I don't think that just reading the Bible alone, so outside of experience or lack of experience, that you would come out from that based on scripture saying, oh yes, these things would end at a certain point in time.

I don't believe you'd come to that position. Some of the finest Christians I know on the planet are cessationists. Some of the best biblical scholars I know on the planet are cessationists. So I mean no judgment what I'm saying. I'm just saying that is my conviction.

Okay, so I've gotten into that in the past. Why is it that I'm bringing it up now, and why is it that I say that I believe in the years ahead, decades ahead, that cessationism will continue to decrease until cessationism ceases? Why do I say that? Two main reasons. Well, three.

Three. One, the testimony of the Word is just too clear. And as new generations read the Bible for themselves, more and more realize these things continue for today. So they don't have the negative experience of hey, I was expecting this and it didn't happen, or I was believing for this and it didn't happen, and therefore I'm reconsidering what I believe about the Bible. Rather, by reading the Bible afresh in an environment where these things are not normal, they're like, why aren't we seeing this? So that's one thing, but let me give you the two other principle reasons. One is that around the world the Holy Spirit continues to move in dynamic ways.

I'm going to give you some stats in a moment. As much as we see a lot of backsliding in America and the rise of the religious nones, N-O-N-E-S, so those with no religious affiliation, or the dones, those who say they've had it with any organized religion or Christian religion, as much as those continue to rise in America, the fact is that all around the world the Holy Spirit's moving mightily. Yes, Europe continues to backslide and decline in many ways spiritually, but no question around the world in tangible documented ways, things I've seen with my own eyes, things that are known and documented by missiologists and sociologists and anthropologists, God is moving powerfully around the world and the great bulk of it is charismatic Pentecostal Christianity. The great bulk of it is accompanied by miraculous healings and people being delivered from demons and with people being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues and with prophecies being given in legitimate real ways around the world. And in fact, the churches that I'm familiar with in America that are growing in the most dynamic ways and seeing young people radically saved and people hungry for God and flocking to prayer meetings and flocking to services, the great bulk of that that I'm aware of is also happening in Pentecostal charismatic circles. Now understand, I have been known as among Pentecostals and Charismatics perhaps the loudest critic, perhaps the loudest or certainly one of the loudest voices calling for accountability in our midst, calling out the false Trump prophecies and the failed COVID prophecies and other things over the years and saying where's the power, where's the reality?

So I understand the extremes. I've written a whole book playing with holy fire came out in 2018, a wake-up call to the Pentecostal charismatic church. 1991 I wrote whatever happened to the power of God as the charismatic church slain in the Spirit are down for the count. So I have absolutely called for accountability and recognized problems, errors, the spreading of the carnal prosperity message, the destruction that's brought over the decades, absolutely, 100%. So I'm not naively thinking God's moving powerfully all over the earth and it's all perfect and pure.

What God's doing is perfect and pure but people are not. So there's a lot of error that needs to be corrected, a lot of disciplining that needs to be done for sure. And this is where I ask my cessationist friends, hey come in and join in the disciplining process, join in the training people to teach and minister the word, just don't get in the way of what the Holy Spirit's doing as well. So one reality is that God is just moving and more and more people that are coming to faith are coming in a Pentecostal charismatic expression.

That's one thing. The other thing, and this is just a sense that I have, I certainly can't give you data on it, it's just a sense that I have, but I expect that there will be demonic manifestation in America more and more in the days ahead and that Satan will be more overt in what he's doing in the days ahead. Back in the 1980s, I remember hearing a missiologist talking about how missionaries were being sent out from leading seminaries and they were cessationist seminaries, so the seminary professors loved the Lord and the students there loved the Lord and now they're going on the mission field and of course they were told that miraculous healings were not the norm anymore, that exorcisms were not the norm anymore, that those gifts of the Spirit had ceased with the death of the apostles or with the completing of the canon, whatever the teaching was and they come back from the mission field completely burnt out after just one tour of duty and they would say, you told us that these things weren't for today, well the witch doctor cursed our family and we've been sick ever since and we encountered demonic reality there and we didn't have any way to counter it and then they began to seek God earnestly and came into the baptism of the Spirit and their lives were changed and this happened more and more and more to the point that missiologists and professors with seminaries began to see what was happening and recognize something's going on here and I expect friends that we'll see more of that here in America, that we're going to see a more overt demonstration of satanic power. If you go over to a continent like Africa or a country like India and you're ministering there and the Holy Spirit falls, many times their people are demonized and they will just manifest right there like it's out what you read in the Bible, someone looks like they're having a seizure and it's not medical at all, it's spiritual or some bizarre thing, a person just going crazy and they're only taken out to be ministered to and prayed for, it's out in the open whereas in America things are more subtle, it's going to come through education, through brainwashing and indoctrination with radical anti-God agendas or it's going to come in the political realm, it's going to come through some Hollywood celebrity and the stuff is demonic in terms of the agenda but it's under control.

I expect these to get more overt, I expect the attacks on believers from the enemy to get more overt because of which we will have to recover the gifts and power of the Spirit in order to fight spiritual weapons from the enemy with spiritual weapons from God and as the years go on it's going to be harder and harder to be cessationist, one because of the word, two because of what the Spirit's doing around the world and three because of what I expect Satan to be doing more and more and therefore as he is out of the closet more and more, God will be moving overtly more and more. Just whatever leads, we can talk about it but I want to give you some stats when we come back and take your calls. 866-348-7884. Stay right here. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34 truth.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, it is Giving Tuesday if you're listening, watching live or just a few days after you're allowed to give after Giving Tuesday but this is a great time, just a tradition in America, Giving Tuesday. If we've been a blessing to you, if you've appreciated the line of fire broadcast, if you've appreciated the articles, videos, the resources we put out for free year in, year out to serve you, to help infuse you with faith and truth and courage to help build you up and hope and strength in the Lord. If we've been a blessing to you, why not stand with us?

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So thank you for standing with us, we appreciate it and trust that you'll be storing up treasure in heaven as you give. Okay, before I give you some positive stats, I just saw this headline on Drudge Report right now, right during the break. Census, Christians a minority in England, non-religious grow. A fewer than half the people in England and Wales consider themselves Christian according to the most recent census. The first time a minority of the population has followed the country's official religion.

Britain has become less religious and less white in the decades since the last census. Figures from the 2021 census released Tuesday by the Office for National Statistics revealed some of the, let's see, some 46.2% of the population of England and Wales described themselves as Christian on the day of the 2021 census, down from 59.3% a decade earlier. Now even more striking is the fact that the great majority of these people, as far as I know, would not even be truly Christian. They must be Christian in name only and that even there, even there, they're a minority of the population. The Muslim population grew from 4.9% to 6.5% of the total and many of them being true Muslims in terms of not Muslims in name only, while 1.7% identified as Hindus up from 1.5%. More than one in three people, 37%, said they had no religion up from 25% in 2011.

Okay, that's on the negative side. I wrote an article recently that streams of refreshing, on times of refreshing, are here now from the Lord all around the world and I want to read to you what I wrote in my book, How Saved Are We, which came out in 1990, all right, so 32 years ago, 32 years ago, talking about Peter's message at Pentecost, Shavuot, Feast of Weeks, Acts 2, where Peter says, repent, turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that he may send the Messiah who's been appointed for you, even Jesus, he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. So, skipping down, I said this, all over the world, God's Spirit is on the move. There were fewer than 10 million Christians in Africa in 1900, but the projection for 2,000 is 324 million. In Latin America, evangelical Christianity grew from a mere 50,000 in 1900 to a projected 137 million in 2000. In the early 1980s, it was estimated that over 20,000 Chinese were being converted to Christianity every day, even in the extremist Hindu kingdom of Nepal, shrouded by the Himalayan mountains, the Lord has frowned for himself with people.

In 1960, there were only 25 baptized believers. By 1989, there were over 50,000 in spite of intense government opposition, and this is only the beginning. So, that's what I wrote in 1990, then I describe an outpouring in India in 1905, and on and on.

So, let's get some updates. That was what I wrote in 1990, now we're in 2022. According to Ellie Hardy, so she's not a believer, just a journalist, of the world's two billion Christians, a quarter are now Pentecostal, actually even slightly higher than that, Pentecostal slash charismatic. That's up from just 6% in 1980, all right? It's predicted that by 2050, one billion people, or one in 10 of us, will be part of the movement. One in 10 of every human being on the planet will be Pentecostal charismatic by 2050, according to this estimate, all right?

And if you think 100 years ago, you were talking about literally a handful, and now you're talking about about 600 million. This is what God's doing all around the earth. More broadly, and focusing here in the USA, she wrote, in 2018, more Americans reported having had a born-again experience than in any record since 1972, at the same time in which evangelicals as an overall percentage of the population have been declining.

Isn't that interesting? God moving even here in America. Looking at some of the areas I referenced above, and how saved are we, there are roughly one million Christians today in Nepal, a 300% increase. As for the continent of Africa, it had been estimated that by the year 2000 there would be 324 million Christians.

It turns out that estimate was too low. In fact, as of today, there are roughly 700 million professing Christians in Africa, meaning there are more professing believers on that continent than on any other continent in the world. For similar phenomenal growth in Latin America, I referenced another source there. This is happening around the world. Now, a lot of it needs pruning, refining, teaching, discipling. It has been so, excuse me, the growth has been so rapid, the growth has been so extraordinary, and the growth has been mixed with bad doctrine and wrong teaching and things that there's a great need for discipleship in the midst. I don't downplay that, but please don't downplay what the Holy Spirit is doing. These shifts in continents like Africa have never been seen before in world history on this level. Since Islam grew and dominated so much of Africa, now the whole nation's shifting. Yes, the roots need to go down deeper, but God is moving.

That's another reason I say that cessationism will cease, because of the Spirit moving around the world. All right, let's go over to Keith in Jamestown, Tennessee. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Hi, honored to be here. I'm a low Pentecostal sleeper.

I have two quick questions if you have time for them. The first is in, I think it's 1 Corinthians 12-13, Paul is talking about, we were all baptized in the body, whether Jew or Greek. And then he has a hyphen, and he says, all were made to bring the same Spirit. Do you think that Zach is in favor for, like, either the baptism or the gift?

Like, is that what that's referring to? Right, it's a very interesting verse, and let's take it in two parts. Saying that by one Spirit we've been baptized into the body, I understand that, and some other scholars do, that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ as salvation.

That's what it's talking about. Or through water baptism and the Spirit's agency that we are joined with the body of Christ in that way. So I don't believe that's talking about what we would refer to as the Pentecostal baptism of the Spirit, something subsequent to salvation, but rather the Holy Spirit joining every believer to the body of Christ at salvation and sealed by baptism. So that's how I want to understand that. As for made to drink of the Spirit, that could easily apply to the gifts and power of the Spirit, because remember, Paul has been commending the Corinthians in the midst of their errors and even their moral failures. He's commended them for not lacking any of the spiritual gifts.

They just needed correction in that regard. So drinking of that Spirit I would see as the whole of our life in the Lord, including the gifts and power of the Spirit. Yes. All right, second question. Yes, so I recently watched your debate with, I think it was Dr. Zacharias or something. Yeah, Theodore Zacharias, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Before you go, I think you did it. And I know most of the stationists believe this, but I guess I don't understand why it is that they absolutely refuse experience. Because I feel like this is contrary to even the gospel, where it's like in Romans, Paul talks about, we have the evidence of creation.

You know, especially for people who haven't heard the gospel, they're still without an excuse because they have the evidence of creation. And even in the Bible, it's like, I guess you could use like King Solomon. Like, he had to discern between the two women based off what he was observing. Yeah, well, I would say as far as Solomon, you know, that's a matter of being endowed with supernatural wisdom. But the New Testament does frequently point to miracles, just like the Old Testament did. God demonstrated through Moses that he was the one and true God.

He spoke through Isaiah that predicting the future separated him from the other so-called gods. And then Jesus would point to the miracles and say, believe on the evidence of the miracles. Or Paul, for example, 1 Corinthians 2 said, my speech and preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and power, set your faith should not stand in the wisdom of God, but wisdom of man, but in the power of God. And in Galatians 3, as the Galatians had fallen from grace, he's saying, hey, the one who worked miracles among you, the one who gave you spirit, was it by works or by faith? So these were, these were real things. And as long as we're not saying, believe the miracles versus the word, but rather believe the miracles because of the word, yes, these things do point to the living God and do glorify Jesus. And they are in harmony with scripture. They confirm what is written, signs following, confirming the word that's being preached.

That's how the spirit's moving around the earth. All right, thank you for the call, Keith. We'll be right back.

884. You get to weigh in if you differ with me, if you've got a specific question, or a little while, just anything you want to talk to me about, trying to open the phones as much as possible. Also, also, God willing, I leave for India on Saturday, my 28th trip to India.

Missed so much being there because of COVID last two years, so eager to get back. We have special broadcasts ready for you next week, specially recorded. I'm going to speak with a Jonathan Edwards scholar, a professor at Yale University, visiting professor, Pentecostal believer, multiple advanced degrees, a Jonathan Edwards scholar about revival, emotion, manifestations. So that interview is terrific. We've already recorded that. I've recorded an interview with professor Jonathan McClatchy.

He is a biology professor, but a great Christian apologist as well. And we're responding to an atheist video that went after some of my material by Pologia. So we recorded that. That is terrific. God willing, next Thursday, we're going to take you into a debate, play as much of the debate as we can, give the whole show to that. Rabbi Shmuley and yours truly on Isaiah 53. Yeah, who's the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53.

And, and we'll be recording with Professor James, James Beverly about his encounters with people like the Dalai Lama and Professor Anthony Flew, who for a time was the world's most prominent. Excuse me. Hang on. I'm going to get some water here. I do not know what happened to my throat during the break, but there we go.

On live radio for those watching. Yes, sir. Okay.

So Professor Anthony Flew, who Professor Beverly started with when Anthony Flew was a prominent atheist before he became a theist. He's had some really interesting encounters with a wide range of people. So he's, we saw we got some great interviews coming your way all next week, but because I won't hear be here to take calls, try and open the phones as much as I can for your calls on a wide range of subjects this week. All right. With that, let's go over to Adam in South Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire.

Thank you for taking my call, Dr. Brown. Sure thing. I was just curious what your opinion is on social media channel profits today, such as Kat Kerr or Amanda Grace that may appear on like Elijah stream, that sort of thing. And if you believe they're biblical. Yeah, I certainly don't believe in message.

Yeah. I certainly don't believe Kat Kerr is biblical. I haven't followed the other that you mentioned. She's one that I very specifically detailed with the false Trump prophecies and no sign of recognition of error. If you want our larger view, go to propheticstandards.com propheticstandards.com, where Bishop Joe Matera and I, with the help of a good number of charismatic Pentecostal leaders put together a statement affirming prophetic ministry today, and then dealing with, we don't mention Trump or those prophecies.

It's much broader how we deal with error, how we have to hold people accountable. There are others, I address them in detail in my book, The Political Seduction of the Church, whose words did not come to pass. And rather than recognizing it, they either blamed others or we didn't pray enough, or it came to pass in the spirit, other things like that, that are just terribly, terribly dangerous. I found a lot of this being promoted on the Elijah list to be dangerous, to be misleading.

Whether these people are saved or not is God's business. In other words, if I, in my understanding, if I call them false prophets, that means they are wolves in sheep's clothing, according to the Lord's definition in Matthew 7, and that they are not believers at all, but are deceivers trying to lead the body astray. When I say someone prophesies falsely or falsely claims to be a prophet, that's a separate thing. So I will absolutely say that someone like Kat Kerr is falsely calling herself a prophet. And I would run from the types of messages that are being brought and some of the bizarre revelation. And it's unfortunately not extreme fringe. Some of these people have fairly large followings, and it's very, very discouraging to see that little discernment.

But that's why so many charismatic critics have a field day with us, because many times we're so gullible. So, yeah, some dangerous stuff. Thank you.

You are, you are very welcome. Look, I, you know, I've interacted with Justin Peters. We obviously have differences about our beliefs concerning the things of the Spirit today. But if there was more accountability in our midst, then Justin would not need to do a lot of what he does.

Just being candid. You know, if we had more accountability and people were recognizing their error and repenting and recognizing how, how and why they prophesied falsely and getting things right, etc., then he would need to put out whole videos with all the failed COVID prophecies and failed Trump prophecies and things like that. And the things of the Spirit would not be made into a laughingstock.

So that's on us. That's on our lack of accountability as Charismatics Pentecostals. I say this as someone who loves the gift of prophecy, who believes in prophetic ministry for today, who believes that there are prophets today, not ministering as Old Testament prophets did, meaning that all of us have the indwelling Spirit. And if someone comes with a prophetic word, we still have to test it by Scripture, but then also by the witness of our own Spirit. And whatever is spoken has to be tested, judged by two or three others if it's in a public setting. So, I mean, those things we understand.

But, yeah, some real error out there. Because of that, it's brought reproach to the things of the Spirit. It's brought reproach to the name of Jesus. It's made even non-charismatic Christians look bad, and I grieve over that. I grieve over our lack of accountability. I also grieve over the rejection of the Spirit. I grieve when conferences are held, just, or documentaries and videos are put out, just to say these things are not for today. I grieve over that, but I also feel very confident that some of the very people, some of the very people, sincere Christians, who put out documentaries, who do conferences, who put out teachings, saying that the gifts and power of the Spirit that Pentecostals, Charismatics believe in, are saying they are not for today, we say they are, that some of these very people in days ahead will be embracing the fullness of the Spirit. And I believe that they will be embracing the fullness of the Spirit. I fully believe that. Fully believe it. All right, back to the phones and changing subjects.

We go to Alberta in Georgia. Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, good afternoon, Dr. Brown. If I say I'm the biggest racist, right? But I care about the human race and care about the souls of different ethnicities or people groups because they're made in the image of Christ, of God. So if I say I'm the biggest racist because I care about the human race, so I'll care about winning their souls for the kingdom of God. So is that being racist? All right, so how do you define racism? Well, according to the people, they say the racist is somebody that's just hating somebody without no real place based on the color of their skin. That's why I support the definition. But to me, I could define this and say I'm a racist because I really care about the human race. Yeah, so I understand what you're saying. I just wouldn't use that term, though.

In other words, what's the purpose? The term has a negative definition. A racist, by definition, is someone who opposes another person or group based on their race, right?

Discriminates against them, dislikes them, mistreats them, judges them based on their race. So the word has a definition, just like you live in the state of Georgia. Well, you might say, well, Georgia means something else to me, right? But it has a working definition.

So I wouldn't use that. I would emphasize instead, hey, we're all of the same race. Hey, in God's sight, he doesn't see race.

He sees hearts. And that's what I would emphasize, that I don't distinguish based on race. I don't discriminate based on race. I don't judge based on race.

What I'm looking at is the quality of someone's heart, the quality of their life. You know, Dr. King's famous adage that we'd be judged by the content of our character and not by the color of our skin. So I just wouldn't see any profit in trying to redefine the word.

You know what I'm saying? If someone throws it on you falsely and they say, well, you're a racist, say, well, yeah, because I care about the human race. But because that's not how the term is used, I don't see any reason to use it in a positive way. Rather say I'm a lover of all people.

You know, I'm a lover. I'm not a racist rather than trying to redefine the word. But yes, in God's sight, there is the human race. And we have diversity of color and ethnicity and background and all that.

But there is the human race. And that's what we belong to. Hey, thank you. Thank you for the call.

I appreciate it. So look, this opens up the discussion about things like Christian nationalism, right? So my colleague, John Smirack at The Stream, brilliant writer, Catholic.

He says we should take on the term Christian nationalism for the very reason that the left uses it to bash us all, that the left uses it to attack us all, that the left uses us to make us all into, if we're conservative Christians who love our country, now we are all white supremacists, insurrectionists, etc. So since they're misusing misusing it, let's take it as a badge of honor. You know, just like when Hillary Clinton referred to Trump supporters as a basket of deplorables, that became a term of honor. Hey, we are the deplorables.

And this does happen. John documents in his columns how this has happened historically. And even the term Christian initially was a term of approbation. It was a term of insult, as best as we understand it, that when it's first used in Acts 11, people are like, what are these people, Jews, Gentiles, meeting together, and what are they, following this Christos guy with Christ?

They're like the Christies. It'd be like saying people who listen to me are the Brownites. It was an insult. But then, because that's how they became known, they took it as a badge of honor. So I differ with John on that, but I get what he's saying. You know, in other words, they're going to insult us like that? We'll take it on ourselves, but we'll use it the right way. Because there's so much baggage with it, and because there can be an unhealthy nationalism as well, I don't use the term, and I warn against the dangers of it, as opposed to John saying, hey, here's the right way to use it. But I understand that mentality. When it comes to racist, that's his negative word. Why try to make it into something positive? All right, we'll get back with some more calls on the other side of the break, 866-34-TRUTH, and a couple of comments on the World Cup taking place right now.

What the world calls football, and we call soccer, the biggest sporting event really that takes place at any point in time, bigger than the Olympics in many ways, bigger than the World Cup in cricket, bigger than the Super Bowl, is the World Cup in football slash soccer. So we've got a couple comments on that when we come back. Stay right here. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, we're going to go back to the phones in a moment. Remember to make sure you're getting our emails. We've got so much good stuff coming your way, especially at the end of the year, ways you can partner together with us, ways we can pour into you. So make sure you go to AskDrBrown.org. If you haven't been there in some months, check out the completely revamped, completely revised, night and day better, night and day improved enhanced website there for you. Explore the contents. Just make sure you have time because you get lost there. There's a whole lot of free stuff for you.

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866-34-TRUTH. But a couple things. So when I was a boy, we went to England twice. My mom had been born in England, so we went to stay with relatives of hers. So my mom, dad, my sister and I, my older sister, we went.

And so I spent some time there, you know, a few weeks at a time we'd go. And one time it was during the World Cup. And I remember just the frenzy over the England games and everybody just caught up with that. It gave me a little appreciation. But because I didn't grow up playing soccer, slash what the world calls football, because I understand the game on a certain level, but not from like the status of someone who's grown with it and played it. I understand the passion. It's a national thing. It's national shame and honor and celebration or disgrace.

I understand it, but I don't get the whole of it because I didn't grow up with it, right? So I mean, you'll have, we were talking right before the show, our production team, kind of Chris and I were talking about the emotion, the deaths that will happen with World Cup that, you know, you'll have a referee killed because of a bad call or a player made an own goal. So a guy actually tips the ball into his own net and his team loses and he'd get killed or, you know, the ones that win are treated almost like gods. It's quite remarkable.

And I mean, the passion's very, very intense. So when Saudi Arabia, which if I remember years back, lost to Germany, something like 9-0, one of the most, you don't have scores like that. I'm looking at right now, scores like 2-1, 1-0.

You know, that's the kind of scores you get. That's how bad Saudi Arabia was to a world power like Germany. Now Saudi Arabia beat Argentina in the opening round.

Argentina, one of the favorites to win the World Cup. And there's a national holiday declared. And each of the players, each of the players was, the government was buying them a Rolls Royce Phantom worth like $450,000 for each team member for the victory.

Yeah. So anyway, the plot thickens though. You have Iran playing and, you know, the protests in Iran pushing back against the radical Islamic government and people dying in the streets and protests and women taking off the hijabs and things like that and suffering the consequences. So the opening match, the Iranian team does not sing the national anthem. So they've been threatened now. Your families will go to jail or be tortured.

You'll go to jail. I mean, they put their lives on the line doing that. And after the threat now, they've, they participated in singing, but they're not going to, right now, USA is beating them and the game's almost over. They don't advance. Who knows what happens to them when they get back.

If they won, you know, got even further, maybe there'd be more clemency, but there's big factors. Then England, the whole team takes the knee. I don't know what they were protesting because they started taking the knee over racism. And after the George Floyd killing in America, they started taking the knee in different sports there in England. So their entire team took the knee, protesting something.

The American team didn't take the knees when they played to a draw earlier. It's like, what in the world is going on with that? But the American team is so woke and protesting that this is in Qatar, which does not have acceptance of homosexual relations. So American team pushing their, their woke agenda when the American women's team has won that they've used it to showcase lesbianism and things like that.

And here's a, here's a kiss, you know, between the star player and a partner and things like that. And so I mean, everything gets super politicized, everything. But we were talking about people dying every time it was World Cup. I just saw this in the building of the stadiums and some of the structures that were going up for the World Cup in Qatar. Migrant workers, Qatari official puts World Cup deaths between 400 and 500.

Workers dying building these buildings between 400 and 500. Talk about talk about consequences, unreal. But this is some of the fanaticism with sports and having to get the thing done and everything and something to step back and think about for all of us, huh? All right, let me go back to the phones.

We'll start with Aaron in Alabama. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hey Dr. Barron, how you doing? Very well, thank you.

Big fan, I just had a question real quick. It's about Jacob and Esau. How is Jacob considered a patriarch when he pretty much stole everything from Esau? Yeah, so it is, it is simply by God's gracious calling. That's part of Paul's argument in Romans 9.

It's not about salvation, it's about calling. So when, when Jacob is called and the older will serve the younger, so Esau who's born first of the twins will serve the younger, Jacob, it was simply a matter of divine calling. It had nothing to do with the quality of life of either of them because they hadn't done anything yet at that point. It had to do with divine calling and it went back to God's love for Abraham. So because of his covenantal love for Abraham, he set them aside. So Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, but there were consequences to Jacob's misdeeds. God would have given him the birthright or God would have given him the inheritance, the blessing if he simply honored the Lord. But because he had to rely on stealth, he relied on the arm of the flesh, there ended up being conflict.

He then gets deceived by Laban into marrying two sisters. There ends up being consequences all his life because of the rivalry between the wives and then the mistreatment at the hands of Laban and then his fear of Esau, etc. So it's simply because of God's purpose and that's what Romans 9 says. It was not based on works but on God's purpose. So Calvinists understand that in terms of salvation but it's not really the context. The context is calling for service and purpose and that's why the nation of Israel is called because of God's love for Abraham and the patriarchs.

So it wasn't because of Israel's goodness being better than the other nations, being bigger than the other nations, but simply because of God's grace and that's the reminder for all of us that we're the recipients of grace and the moment we boast in terms of works, we are deceiving ourselves. But Jacob paid for it. He did pay but that's the lesson of Romans 9. And then he in turn tried to bless him.

Excuse me, say that again? And then he tried to make it up to him by blessing him when he returned. Yeah, I mean in point of fact, really Jacob is trying to figure out a way to not have Esau kill him, right?

Trying to pacify him. But the breakthrough really comes when he wrestles with God and that's when the breakthrough comes. He finally gets to that point where all of his conniving, all of his plans, all of his deception, it won't work and I think he and I think he realizes it that his ploy is going to fail and the only hope he has is to rely on the mercy of God and he cries out, I won't let you go until you bless me and that's when that blessing then comes. Then of course Esau hugs him. There's this rabbinic tradition that says he didn't hug him, he actually bit his neck and that's why Jacob wept. But that's just a fanciful tradition. They hug and embrace and yeah, divine calling, not based on our works.

It stumbles us a lot, but that's who God is far above our ways. Hey, thank you for the call. I appreciate it. Let us go to James in Utah. Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, hello. I didn't hear that.

There was a noise that way. Did you say James? Yes sir, you're on the air. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay.

This is him. How you doing? Good afternoon. I would like to ask one question about healing. When you talk about healing, and I know you believe in that, are you talking about the individual having the gift of healing today like they did with like the apostles who had at will they can go ahead and heal people, raise the sick? I mean, up until the point of before Jesus come in the Old Testament didn't really practice that much, but do you believe in that somebody has the gift of healing today or is it through a faithful believer that God goes, that a person goes to God and asks for healing?

Well, both and, but I just want to raise one issue to you. I do believe that that gifts of healing are given to believers today and God uses them in supernatural healing on a regular basis, that's one. And two, I believe that any of us can go to God for healing and that the elders in every local congregation should be able to pray in faith for the sick as per James, Jacob, the fifth chapter. But I don't believe that the apostles could heal at will. Remember, Paul says that he left Trophimus sick in Miletus in 2 Timothy 4. And in 1 Timothy 5, he tells Timothy to take some, drink some wine because of his stomach aches.

Wine's for stomach aches. I understand that. So, in other words, it wasn't that they could at any time at any moment heal everyone. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't have left Trophimus sick at Miletus. And some believe that Paul himself had a sickness. That's debatable.

Yeah. Yeah, so I don't, I believe the thorn was the intense persecution that he suffered. But, so I don't believe that anyone today at will can just heal everybody.

I do not believe that exists. I do believe that gifts of healing are here so that there are people that I know on a regular basis see the blind healed, or the deaf healed, or other documentary conditions healed as well. And they see it on a regular basis.

But do we see 100% or anywhere near that? No. That's why some say the gift is not for today.

I simply think they're misunderstanding how the gift operated because of the time. Sorry to jump in, but that's all the time we have. Thank you for the call.

A discussion that we need to continue. May the blessing in favor of the Lord overtake you. Seek Him. Seek Him. Join the year. Join the year. Another program powered by the Truth Network.