Three Special Interviews

I know it's a surly Jewish Thursday, but we've got some special guests today stalk for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry getting to the wino fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown to friends and I am about to get wonderful interview friend Holly about dogs who log this is a foundational subject. This is something that every believer in Jesus talks about and knows about on a certain level, but it's amazing how many misconceptions that we often have comes to the love of God, my guest dear friend for many years. David Harwood also a Jewish believer with his wife Elaine is led the congregation in northern Long Island for many years.

He is a worship leader and songwriter, but sometime back and cut really consumed with the issue of God's love. He's written a terrific book on a call God's true love for the last decade is that seminars on the subject of God's true love in America and in other locations and there's been a great impact of life change through these seminar soaps Dave Harwood, my guest, welcome back to the line of fire pleasure to be with you, Michael, David, how did you get interested in the subject. In your own life. One, when did you become the focus on the question of the meaning of God's true love was first focus was concerned.

But unpacking it began to happen after I received the impartation it was an impartation that transpired in my life after I spent about 10 years.

Praying through the Philippians 3 prayer where in all spoke of him. Really prayer across book of his desire, his desire was that he would know the Messiah power of his resurrection fellowship of his sufferings conformed to his death. I made that clear.

My own thought it was going to be my life verse after Argus in between 8 to 10 years of praying that prayer there was a day that I was exposed to the prayer of Paul in Ephesians 3. To know the love of God and I realized that, according to the prayer there was an impartation from the Holy Spirit to strengthen our hearts that we would have the power to grasp the fullness of the love of Jesus. This was made alive to me and I prayed to the Lord concerning something happened in my life I was changed. There was it was like a switch went off and all of a sudden I began to lay hold of the love of God in which I never had in my life. God began to open up to me sir what the content of that love.

It was much more than a feeling there's a real person is behind the sense of the love of God, and he began to reveal to me. His heart and aspects of that love had not been exposed to teaching, and David, you're a man of the word and of the spirit of a man who loves God with your heart and with your mind you begin to teach this to students of ours. We had a branch of our ministry school in New York City for a few years you get to teach this. We just got little over minute, but what happened when you began to unpack the Scriptures on God's love to the students what the Messiah said that if the continuing his word to be his disciples know the truth. The truth will set you free. And as we began to open up the Scriptures up to his younger disciples in the school. Their lives were changed. That's not an exaggeration. I was taken aback by how powerful of the message was really arson the Pentecostal Jesus of the words I speak to their spirit in their life. I and and just so we understand the strength as followers of Jesus we talk about the love of God. We know the love of God.

Most believers know John 316 for God so loved and in this way God so loved the world he gave his one and only son and and we talk about the love of God. This is love, not that we loved him. Firstly he loved us, we understand these things, and in yet there aspects of the love of God that my guess David Harwood say that fundamentally misunderstood face on what Scripture says this is called freight praise in Ephesians 3 that we would all know breath and the height depth of God's love. We ought to notice things. Let us explore God. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown and he said the love of God in understanding the love of God walking in the love of God in making that love know what if we have some fundamental misconceptions about the love of God would then affect our lives negatively. Would that affect your ministries negatively. Can we afford to live our lives without fully understanding and grasping the love of God, at least as fully as we can in this world, my guest, David Harwood, Jewish believer in Jesus like yours truly is been a pastor worship leader songwriter for many years, and more recently, an author and well known now for his seminars on God's true love in his book, God's true love David we often hear that, in Greek, there are three different major words for love, one refers to Cardinal Law one refers to whether the loved one refers to divine love. That's called agape or the verb talk a part of. Would you say that that is an accurate statement. Overall or there some accuracy inaccuracies in it, and if so where those inaccuracies lead us well let's see I know that those understanding is more like a current evangelical tradition that's been going on for lasts 60 to 70 years, but the reality is that the word agape as well as the noun of the ice was the third is a word that really it just means love. It means love of every description that savored it say an all-inclusive love and is not only divine love is love that can describe everything from that which is profane to that which is common to humanity of a given example of texture okay in John chapter 3, we have word agape used three times one is in John 316 which you have mentioned earlier in this way God so loved.

For God so loved the world, is only godson, and that is God holy person the holy person loving a cosmos which is in darkness than a couple of verses later in John 319, the word agape is used again. Basically it's written of this is the judgment that light has come into the world and humanity. Loved best work. Agape love the darkness rather than the light because their deeds are evil so you have holy, divine love, which is motivating God to exit redemption to mercy and then just three verses later you have a love which, if not turned away from his damnable. This is the judgment of that humanity. Agape's loves the darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. The third time agape is using John three is the testimony of John the Baptist, Johnny Mercer, who said that the father loves word agape again loves the son is put all things into his hands, and so there you have the holy person loving the holy son thinks is important is that this word agape is an emotion, God has an emotional love for the world the prompts and that provokes him to work. Redemption in the in the earth bring humanity back to himself. Humanity has the emotion of love towards darkness and despises the light loving the darkness in order to cover up their evil deeds and then finally holy person father loving holy son at the same time. Despite this is disparity of of holy God loving loving lost cosmos humanity loving darkness, father, loving the sun is speaking of the same thing when you listen to the much of what's said in the church. What seems to be implied is that agape is this holy selfless love that does not in any way consider the value of the object of love. In other words, I love that which is worthless because I am a great lover and a wonderful person or I have determined to act lovingly and I have great control and so I act in a loving fashion in both of those things. What you have is that agape or God or love has nothing to do with the object of love, but that is not the case.

God really loves the world wants the world wants humanity back in relationship with himself, humanity at our worst loves the darkness and wants the darkness to cover up its evil deeds and at the best. The father holy father loves the son, the Messiah, Jesus and Jesus we are all in agreement with this is absolutely worthy of this love, but in the eyes of God, so also is a cosmos loss was lost humanity. Agape is an emotion.

Alright, so what will unpack this a bit more the meaning of of emotion. When we speak of God, but obvious. It doesn't take much study to see that the verb or the noun associated with agape love is is not this the supernatural lover. This supernatural expression or just this purely theological expression doesn't take much study to see that as you mentioned in John three. Obviously, if it is divine, selfless love, it doesn't apply to human beings, loving darkness, rather than than light and we can sign this through the use of agape and Ogg Apollo in both the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Greek New Testament, but in short, which are basically saying is we have emptied the love of God of love as we've noted to theological God has a plan to save the world, and even though we are unworthy of his love dirty loves us, yet run worthy of his love yet that love is not just a cold theological love or an emotionless decision so let's get into this issue of a motion for moment will refer to God runtime God having ups and downs and who don't pray in today's in a bad mood always in a good mood today is like a drunken alcoholic father. You don't know what to expect from him don't mean that. But some theologians speak about God's impasse ability by which they mean that because he is always the same. That terms like God's wrath. God's love. God's joy God's sorrow that these are just theological terms that do not actually correspond to realities within God, otherwise God would somehow be changing how you feel about that concept. Well, I preferred the testimony of the Scriptures when I came to the Lord. I humbled my intellect and just determined to take note take the word of God take the Scriptures the words of the apostles, the words of God incarnate the words of the holy prophets of Israel.

I decided to take and submit my mind to it that I empathize with those who walked up to the goddess in some sort of a Yost state that he doesn't actually interact with creation it doesn't actually God is constantly interacting. He interacts within himself as truly is interacting with his angelic host is interact interacting with humanity and just think that he has no emotions is to actually to raise is a theological or philosophical concept and and and consider that to be more perfect than the way which God describes himself, God describes himself as being holy yes but he describes himself also as being an emotional God of one of the songs I think it's online before it says he may be I doesn't he see you made the deer doesn't hear well our site and our hearing are analogous to God's sight and God's hearing and along with that, I think we might be able to add without distorting the meaning of the text you made the heart because he did not feel does he not love. And he says over and over again that he does and were supposed to look in our case to Calvary to see an extraordinary expression of love of desire of of of wrath of the wrath love of jealousy of mercy. All of these things are emotions and I think that that's how God wants us to see if in fact the Scripture says we know love by this that he lay down his life for us and therefore we have an obligation to love one another. Alright, we can unpack this more friends to get the full insight get David Harwood's book, God's true love, but my heart gets dirty as I hear these things because yes, we are fallen human beings and therefore our anger, our sorrow, our joy, our jealousy, our love can be mingled. They're not perfectly pure like God's love. God's anger God's sorrow or but we have to realize that when God pours out his love. There is tremendous deep expression. You know all of us who have ever loved.

We've we've have heartbreak if it's a relative you love dying.

If it's a person 11 relationship broke yet heartbreaking and you go through this disabled is better to have loved even to go through the heartbreak than to never have loved at all. That is reality when it comes to God, a genuine longing and desire for people to come to know him genuine, rejected, and in his sovereign will. This is is and how he operates to you as a believer unpack that David Harwood's book, God's true love me like the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown about washed in the word of God. I want to be washed now in the truth of God's love. My friend David Harwood, author of the book, God's true love David, I want you to open up the Scriptures. I want you to minister to our listeners and to our viewers and talk to us about God's true love what it means to us as believers is it of the primary thing that means is that if we make it our serious business to abide in the love of Jesus that were going to bear fruit yet.

That makes that makes this really important in John chapter 15 of the Lord is speaking to his apostles is about to leave them at these time of the things which are really on his heart tells them five times abide in me, over and over again and then the next time that he begins to speak with them. He says this to them, just as the father has loved me. I have also loved you abide in my love, not that is the key for abiding in Jesus says abide in me abide in the over and over again. He's teaching these men within the framework of an oral culture where by by repetition. They are learning and Jesus is speaking over and over again.

They're getting it abide in me abide in me that there concentrating on what he saying in them.

The last time that he uses these words abide in me speaking to them is like listen, listen, I want you to know what it means to abide in me, just as the father has loved me. I have also loved you abide in my love. So that's the key that God incarnate, that's the Messiah giving us understanding of how he wants us to abide in him. He wants us to abide in him by adapting an inner posture towards him that he has with his father. The Lord knew that the father loved him and his immersion father saying this is my son in whom I am delighted this is my beloved son, I'm delighted in him is the same thing at the transfiguration. This is my beloved son, listen to him. Father delighted in Jesus. Jesus knew that the father delighted in him and the Lord is saying to his disciples on the night he was betrayed on the night when all of these men are going to leave and perhaps come back know that John was a witness at the cross. He says them.

Listen the same to like the father has me I have the same delight in you and I want you to remain in a conscious awareness of my love I bet that had happened. How can I remain in a state of consciousness, God's love for me when I knew I really didn't have quality prayer today. You know I neglected time in the word, read the word in a mindless what you like. I allowed my my thoughts and bad thoughts. I wasn't compassionate if someone had a need and I was consumed with something else. It or maybe something worse than that, how can I be conscious of God's love when I am very conscious of my failings and of his perfection and holiness maturely. It it may be a good dad a really good day I can embrace God's love for me. But what if it's not my best damn hat and here the disciples are about to blow it big time. How could they possibly take over this, but I have to take hold it because the Lord told this is this talk about our best date. This may have been their worst yeah they gone to the Seder. The Lord said one of you is going to betray me.

They begin to safe is it me isn't me and then that have had a conversation devolves into what I'm better than you are.

I'm better than you are. And the Lord Messiah gets up from awareness that he is declining takes off his outer garments girds himself with the towel washes their feet assist. Listen, I want you to love one another, just like I love you and that he goes on to say, and this is the same night is prophesied to Peter, Peter, you're going to betray make all the runaway, they all did, and he's trying to secure them in the relationship with him that they would be able to turn to him at any point in their lives and say he said that night he set it on that night. The night that he was betrayed on the night that Peter Peter betrayed the Lord with holes with curses against think that is using profanity and then I'm came to think maybe a couple of years ago that he was saying, you know, if I know him me.

I'd disqualified from the life to come. But suppose the curses with which Peter was denying the Lord were curses upon the Messiah. Suppose he was saying something like I don't know him and let his name blotted out last makes that makes the betrayal a little bit more serious. The Lord made sure that he secured Peter's heart after his resurrection, and these men would always be able to go back to that night. The night that they betrayed him. The night that they ran away and safe.

He knew he knew was sick to come and he set up the same way. The father loved him the same quality of love, the same intensity the same delight, the same desire. Same with the father loved him. He loves me he loves us. That truth taken by faith is enough to undo our hearts open open your heart up to his love turn us to him. And if you determined to do that on an ongoing basis. We will never be the same and we will will bear fruit. According to the promise abide in me, you will bear fruit yet and we could live lives that bring God joy our lives that bring God's sorrow that speaks to the intensity of his love for us and someone could determined to walk away from God entirely God's commitment to us is that he's not going to walk away from us in our time of weakness in our time of pain anymore than we as parents would walk away from our children in a time of weakness in the time of pain and David what what has so blessed me as I watch you and Elaine pour yourselves out for others. In these ways for so many years is that you are as passionate about this truth. Now is when it opened up in your heart.

Years ago, and I remember having lunch with you and Elaine. Wednesday I think you Jordana. You just finished teaching like six hours straight on this and over over the meal you were both getting all excited about the fact the love of God that one focuses this is something that we can walk in forever in this world and the world conference. I encourage you to get David Harwood's book, God's true love and David you often post some very insightful things online articles blog working folks find you online.

Well, they could always find me know via Facebook under our our ministries, ministries website is love of God project.org or just go look for my name David Harwood and put in love of God and should know that will send it to me yet and David Harwood being a less common in the Michael Brown that were but also love of God project.org. Another place where you can go David. Always a joy to fellowship with you, even on the radio and I trust her listeners were blessed. Thanks much for joining us. It was my privilege. Thanks for having right again. The book God's true love, by David Harwood a check out my latest audios and videos, articles on the website*around ask ADR Brown.org bottom line today greater revelation understanding of the love of God will transform us and allow us to bring a message for transformation.

It's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 866342 here again is Dr. Michael Brown and the deity of Jesus and the subject of God's cry unity Trinity God's complex unity are these beliefs that were created after the writing of the New Testament, perhaps even centuries after. With these beliefs that that were not really codified or or believe strongly until the Nicene Council in the early fourth century, is it Orthodox to say that the first disciples the apostles and the disciples of the apostles held to firm belief in the deity of Jesus or is that of you that should be challenges a lot of debate, discussion on that you'll often inherent in popular circles that that the Nicene Council. They kind of invented the Trinity remained Jesus into a God. Is there any truth to that, then we join today by a dear friend and colleague Dr. James wife many view most of you are familiar with Dr. White's ministries, a foremost Christian apologist well-known author debater he's debated Muslim leaders Catholic leaders Mormon leaders well-known atheist and within the faith. He and I have debated different issues he's debated other believers on things we may have minor differences and and I want to address the subject with James today because he's focused very intensively for many years, a New Testament text, but is also made himself familiar with church history. So James welcome back to the line of fire. Great to have you with us today. All is going to run all right. You are a believer in solar script Torah as MRI, which would mean that the Scriptures are the final authority for faith and life that we base our doctrine on what's written in Scripture and that is our final authority.

Why is it important to know what the early church leaders taught if we hold to solar script Torah. Why does that matter well because I gospel around the world and we live in a day where, because of the Internet being absent ubiquitous attacks upon the fate we can hide our people the things we need to prepare them for it and obviously it makes sense that you make the argument while the teaching of the New Testament. They will say is an big US orders different perspectives and then we look at the early church. These are things developed over time evolved over time. And of course unfortunately have boxlike got into call with Dan Brown all over the place and people reading this kind of action and it was fiction, but Enzo as a result, now it's one thing most Christians have a New Testament they read Lisa major portions of it when it comes to the early church fathers like people going know her love spending time reading the sources and so if those sources are brought up as an objection that they can pretty much, and witnessing opportunity and testimony opportunity because most Christians today don't know much about church history, especially about the early churches so I think it's vitally important especially discover that the testimony to the deity of Christ is extremely early and extremely deep and if you had a minute just to make case for the deity of Jesus in the New Testament.

What are some key texts that you would draw to a point to in just a minute well in just minutes. Very difficult to give it depends on who I'm talking to it if I'm talking to a Jehovah's Witness on an answer that very differently than I'm talking to a Muslim. For example, John was witness in one minute. I would emphasize the identification of Jesus with the tetra granite tops. Another words I go to Hebrews chapter 1 ideal with verses 10 through 12 in comparison to Psalm 102-2527 because of the Jehovah's Witness they already believe that she is a God, all the references Jesus as God really would have that much impact on them. If the demonstration that the New Testament writers were willing to take this text, which were uniquely about the God of the Old Testament and apply them to Jesus. In that same context, which is the key issue of Hebrews chapter 1, the immutability of the creator consultant to apply to the sun. Specifically, he was chapter 1. Also John chapter 12 in the citation from Isaiah 6 Jehovah's Witness for a Muslim.

I would get a different nation and I would emphasize the Lordship, price and identification and has God, especially in fact it has to jump in will continue to be right back against cleansing and gets the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown Mike discussion with the enjoyed about this and what did the early church leaders believe that the apostolic fathers.

The early church fathers as they are called. I had to cut James off a moment ago talking about an apology to Muslims about the Lordship of Jesus.

The Muslims believe the Bible is God's word but it's been corrupted as we have it today as followers of Jesus get this much that they do accept. So James if you are dealing with a Muslim apologetics with the most we've actually done these debates. This new tester present Jesus as deity Jesus as God will you do that would be different than just giving say with Jehovah's Witness or someone else that denied the deity of Jesus things I suggest about is to start undercut a lot of the objections that most Muslims, especially westernized muscle Muslims come from another country and you can pretty much focus just upon on basic text identify Jesus as God, things like that but if they been exposed to an apologetic indent in the Western realm then what I like to try to do is certain. Undercut the objections by going to the earliest traditions in the New Testament to demonstrate that the earliest followers of Jesus clearly believed in his deity, so I don't know that to Don about Mark because they occurred. Mark is the earliest.

And unlike an argument about that but Mark plainly teaches the deity of Christ. I'm getting other tax debt come from the earliest generations. The very earliest years and so first print is chapter 8 be the karma Christie in Philippians chapter 2 I know these extremely early sources and say look from the very beginning.

This is what Christians believe this is not something to balance the Council nicely as nothing becomes a couple hundred years later, it is in the earliest traditions we have New Testament and that's what helps get past allow the objections and really down the meat of the matter with the most right so now let's get back to the issue of church history, and the earliest writings after the New Testament. Obviously again we base our faith on Scripture. But if in fact it is a living faith that was then handed on to subsequent generations, you would expect to see that the leaders in those next generations reaffirmed the things that we understand in the New Testament. So for example if the subsequent leaders. All of them in the first couple of centuries after the New Testament, all of them denied the resurrection of Jesus. All of them spoke of Jesus as just a glorified man. Then you think what happened. How can that possibly merely reading the New Testament rightly. Conversely, if they reaffirmed the fundamental things we believe, then we say, well, that was what was passed onto them and that's why we see clearly in the New Testament and clearly in their writings so what about the case for the deity of Jesus and the apostolic fathers went where would you start if you want to say hey this is not just our interpretation of what is taught in the New Testament.

It's clearly reaffirmed by what the next generation of leaders taught. I think personally if I have the opportunity knocking to go to the dedicate which is why the earliest writings simply because it wasn't meant to communicate things is to simply a manual of church discipline in life and things like that claimant's epistle to the Corinthians is interesting. There are some deftly some high statements about Jesus.

Therapist talking Dr. discipline is focused on something else as well. If you really want to go to the richest source go to the general epistles of Ignatius of Antioch and whenever really cool illustration of this back in the 90s somewhere by style and tract Society. Jehovah's Witnesses decide to do a series where they went through early church fathers and try to paint them as Jehovah's Witnesses when they got to Ignatius. They may really had to work hard because basically they're not doing was only quoting for what are called the pseudo-indignation epistles epistles. We know Ignatius and something right. There are seven genuine epistles of the road, various churches and church leaders on his way to Rome to be martyred. They never quoted from them because they couldn't because the reality is in those epistles, and the numbers vary but minimally in the strongest form minimally 10 times most people would say 14 times in those epistles. He specifically refers to Jesus Christ as our God. And so they can quote from Ignatius denies Ignatius is about as far away from a Jehovah's Witnesses as he possibly could be. And so when we look at those epistles, we are struck not only with the eats with which Ignatius refers to Jesus as God. But Michael for me other things. It's extremely it is exciting to me. I know most people don't get excited about Ignatius Antioch, but I do because here you have a man who gave his life. Nothing he knows the last of the apostles, he is living at the very in the very first decade of the second century so is right there. I mean, about as contemporaneous as you can as you can get. And yet the level of his Christology is absolutely astounding in back of him to read you a a tax from Ignatius Valley pronouncing. I think you'd agree with me on if we were to ask most modern seminary graduates to give us only two months to tight lines describing their theology of Christ. I doubt it. If 5% could equal what I'm about to read you from Ignatius.

I would be shot and this is this is the first generation. This is the very first generation and what were told and what our young people are told when they go to community colleges and universities is best believe in the deity of Christ, and especially the whole realm of Christology God in man, the two natures on all that was was way, way down the road someplace not going to Ignatius Sonny in his epistle to the Ephesians and what we would call the seven verse the seventh division. Here is what we have. There is one physician of flash and of spirit generate and engender God in man true lies in death of Mary and of God first possible and then impassable Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I want to go through that carefully as you can hear the the couplets and he gives there and how deep they are and what they communicate there.

There is one physician. There is one who can bring healing spiritual healing to mankind and bring salvation to mankind. Here's a description of why is there only one because he's of flash and the spirit. I remember this is he dies in 107108 80. This is long before the Council of Nicaea long before Chalcedon of flash and the spirit so there is there is a denial of the Gnostic thing of the Gnostic perspective.

What he really did not partake of flash. There is no true incarnation is a flash and a spirit there is there teenagers and dancing as well generates and engender so what will I will not refer to while on generate in the sense of the flash is not eternally existed, but came into existence, but as to his divinity is engender interest born and I you born and unborn base exactly exactly. Then God in man and onslaught. Both layoffs God and man. Sounds like John 114 me you sound like incarnation to me are not something way down the road. Not something the Emperor Constantine, but very early on from a marcher bishop. We have incarnation very clearly presented God and man.

True lies in death, and so we have yet resurrection, we have the giving of life that is so very important to the understanding the gospel, both from Mary and got so again, maybe not in the technical language it's going to be used if it Chalcedon or someone like that once. Is that all these debates and things like that but in very biblical language both from Mary and from God. The two teenagers once again first possible literally sufferable, so in the incarnation, he can suffer then impassable as the resurrected Lord no possibility of that physical suffering any longer. The resurrection life so on and so forth, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again, if we were to pass most seminary graduates today to write a summary of Christ in a single sentence. How many would be able to do as well as Ignatius. In the first decade of the second sent yeah and and with with that so confirms this with Prof. Larry Hurtado has sought to demonstrate from the New Testament witness that the earliest strata.

The earliest strands of witness in the New Testament point to Jesus as an object of worship point to Jesus as someone that can even be prayed to Mike Stevenson, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit in the early Aramaic saying Iran not thought our Lord come so that this would confirm the highly exalted status of Jesus among the apostles and again we have to realize that is he rises from the dead ascends to heaven. The right hand of the father since the spirit that he's not just a glorified man. Ignatius confirms that regulate dig deeper to see if Ignatius had anything else to say about the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown and I have whole books and when Jesus became God when when people made a man into a God. It was later church history, it's Constantine it's not the New Testament. Teachers didn't believe in the deity of Jesus the Messiah.

Of course we can demonstrate the deity of the Messiah, beginning with the Hebrew Scriptures and overwhelmingly through the witness of the New Testament, but my guess. Dr. James White foremost Christian apologist and author is showing us today that you can go to the apostolic fathers, the disciples of the apostles and you have very clear witnesses and some of their writings as to the deity of Jesus. If you are familiar with Dr. White's ministry and find out more go to a OMI and.org 80MI, and.org for a wealth of relevant and always controversial material because he's tackling the controversies.

James what else does Ignatius of Antioch have to say, you mentioned that he dies as a martyr around 107108 we have his seven letters written to different churches.

This is on his way to martyrdom.

Any other important witnesses about the deity of Jesus and his writings there a lot. I mean, even given his epistle to the Ephesians begins by saying by the well. The father and of Jesus Christ our God. This is common when he writes the Romans on the same language. So this this direct use of Jesus Christ our God, but I wanted to sort it continue in the thought of being one physician tax as you have that deep Christology there and then within about two sentences in his epistle to the Ephesians in the ninth in the night. Verse listen this. You are stones of its temple, which were before hand prepared for building of God the father being raised to the heights. The engine of Jesus Christ, which is the cross and using as a row.

The Holy Spirit, not again this is this is first generation and yet we have Trinitarian language. Just as we have in Ephesians and Colossians in first Corinthians, this the ease with which the Christian people and associate father son and Holy Spirit in the one work of salvation. And yet a clear distinction between the persons there is no is no moralism here is no civilian is that there is no confusing the persons having one person acting like another person.

Some like that you have that the temple is being built to the glory of God the father, but the and it's interesting that the term for engine errors were we get mechanism at the very Greek term, its use their the the engine is of Jesus Christ, which is the cross and I just stopped briefly to point out that in light of my constant apologetic witness to Muslims errors very early evidence outside the New Testament of the centrality of the cross. In light of the Nile serve 417 that the cross ever took place.

So the cross is the the engine. The power by which this building it processes going on and yet being raised to the heights using as a role the Holy Spirit the role of the Holy Spirit in the formation of the church to bring together the of the people is the stones a pretty obviously borrowing from Peter's language here in regards the building of this temple so again I just I realized it.

A lot of folks of my going is that strange looking man so excited about this, but when you realize how common it is for scholarship to just dismissively assert that this kind of stuff was unknown to the early Christians you well even even a certain fellow that I talked to in a debate where this man debated on homosexuality. Setting in the debate we need to start we need start learning to think even differently than Paul did. Or even differently than Jesus did.

And I approached him I said don't you believe in all in in basically Nicene orthodoxy in his response was what really believe it.

Jesus bit disciples of Jesus believe he was God and here you have the disciples of the disciples and they certainly believed it, and what the disciples give us the New Testament certainly thought it there as well. The consistency of this but the problem like a list because of the nature of the Internet and the fact that there there really aren't any controls on right lies can get repeated so often, they become taken as truths and that is being presented for people is being was being present. Our young people to go to university and college and they need to realize there's a much more out there if you actually read this. The sources themselves, but how many people actually in the yeah and and obviously so we have to do our best to to popularize things get them out in in treatable soundbites as well as in lengthy scholarly articles and informal debates. You know I remember an article I read many years ago by BB Warfield where he was showing some of Paul's language the way that the grammar in the prayers and Thessalonians, when he would direct her prayer to the father and son but it would be directed as the prayer was to to one person the way it was crazy think that's so hard to break down explained to someone and I'm doing a poor job of explaining that the Greek grammar here, but when you have for example a typist to second Peter one references to our God and Savior Jesus. That's a lot easier to understand and you're saying that Ignatius repeatedly uses that were first or our God, Jesus Christ, how can you deny that he believe that he was deity with that simple language and it's so straightforward is that life started. That is like ignoring "consider a donation of vessels are. I was listening to an atheist today to find it. Brittania was making a presentation on the development can of Scripture stepped right over Ignatius and numerous misrepresentations and how many people can catch it all, many people have the background or even know someone they can go to ask the question ought to be able to expose this kind of accuracy. So much of what's on the Internet is just not even semi-truthful excitement semi-accurate but there's really no way for for most people to filter that kind of stuff about this a one. One good thing that you want to do friends if you see something reported on Internet try to get it back to the original source so-and-so said thus and such okay where I had a call you today say he heard this quote from an Egyptian president that allegedly said this and that it was time magazine and thus a severe one. I want to check out will once a time magazine. Another said national TV in Egypt but but don't then another sinner was quoted in another book. I could never get back to the source, except that somebody once alleged it was said, and then it becomes that this Internet meme, so try to trace it back find the original source and change. We've got less than a minute you find it exciting to read. The apostolic fathers did to see that that these people willing to die for their faith as well.

Most of the labor but I do want to say very quickly. We need to let the apostolic fathers be the apostolic fathers, most of us in the modern day try to turn them into whatever we are yet but they weren't. They were what they were.

They were Roman Catholics, they work Protestants trying to cram them into our box is going to posit tremendous confusion.

Many of them even have an entire New Testament. Keep that in mind when you're reading them.

They have their flaws but we can learn a lot from them, especially those that gave their lives test moieties yeah and and also reminds us that there is no perfect church you your specific fellowship. We do our best to honor the Lord and we will grow in grace, just as these men hate James thanks for joining us and eliminating us this text and you get a few more readers for Ignatius of Antioch. As result, remember this James website 80 and I and God, you are listening to a previously recorded broadcast, I'm about to talk to a biblical and Semitic scholar about the unseen realm it's time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH index 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown every single day is as we look at the news. We are really looking at what we see big debate tonight between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton another shooting in the states, leaving nine people wounded in the shooter dead of people around the world. Revelations always things are important, but you know there is an unseen realm. There are things happening in an unseen realm in the Bible often talks about this unseen realm, this is Michael Brown you listen to the line of fire really talk about the unseen realm of the biblical and Semitic scholar Michael Heiser and we had a conversation about this last year that was very popular.

We actually re-aired the interview some so delighted to have Mike back with me for an hour today. He is the scholar in residence at Logos Bible software and his PhD in Hebrew Bible speak languages at the University of Wisconsin Madison is main research interest or Israelite religion, especially Israel's divine counsel who will talk about that contextualizing biblical theology with Israel.

Ancient Christian religion, Jewish planetary in a somewhat different screen that trinitarianism biblical languages ancient Semitic languages, textual criticism compare falcon second Temple. Jewish literature. A lot of overlap with my fields of interest to limit this practical, clear for everyone and Dr. Heise's book the unseen realm is written for everyone from stable till you get a copy of that in a moment, but without further ado. Hey Mike, welcome back to the line of fire.

Thank you microplate revenue that all might my joy.

You know it's interesting, though one of the calls I got on my show Friday someone was asking me about the name with the noun Elohim and how that referred to God and was there a divine counsel and is that the Israelites believed in many gods actually got a couple questions about that last week immiscible will talk about that with with Michael Heiser who wrote about these very issues on Monday so Michael, how is it that you got so interested in in this unseen realm that a lot of believers don't understand, let alone think about. Well I my watershed moment or the shot across the spiritually speaking came in graduate school and I caught their undergrad Bible college. Five pictures a couple Masters degree limited Hebrew State Department started before church one day. I don't know what I'm talking about with this guy. The department to both the conversation ended with him ending his Hebrew Bible, is that you need to reform the Hebrew and I had never done that and you know the first verse zero Elohim that filed by R.L. God has taken to place her taken a stand in the divine counsel without getting a grammar spasm. Elohim is singular G ID because it fathers a singular verb form with the participle in a as the Caramello seniors put in the midst of the God who passes judgment, and the second one is plural because of the clarity In the midst of one of her talk about the Trinity because of verses two through five. God is angry with this group of Elohim and I looked at that into thought my one was wow that looks a lot like you, I would like a disturbing thought before church and the second one. Fortunately, providentially was that Jesus knew this passage Paul Miller the apostle. In other words, I'm not looking at anything that know what you know the people that everything and so it is likely has an answer because obviously you know unorthodox Israelite up with the news that Kermit would not be a polytheist is more than a polytheist. The apostles were probably just what going on here and in that experience I so that is the watershed moment the Israelites not polytheist they believe other gods exist. I thought you always said that he alone was God and continue this conversation with Dr. Michael Heiser you are listening to a previously recorded broadcast hey friends, this is Michael Brown I would encourage you to join our support team today become a torchbearer. One of our regular monthly support is enabled us to broadcast the line of fire in America and around the world and all every month or so back in human many many different ways join our team become a torturer asked to run a SK are browned on click on donate. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown, welcome back friends to the month. I am speaking with Dr. Michael Heiser, author of the book the unseen realm severe of a biblical Semitic scholar who has done his research and is come to conclusions that might surprise many of us and and some here and there. I say let's have a discussion about that was eye-opening things that if if you study the Bible in Hebrew and studying ancient recent context, not surprised by this, but many people reinforced tonic on my how could that be with Israelites polytheist today believe in different gods or deity.

Did they believe in one supreme God or so yellow was the only God friends if you want to get a copy of Dr. Heise's book the unseen realm you can get it together with a complete 12 hour course I taught on angels, demons and deliverance.

Just go to the website*Brown asked K DR Brown.org to find out more and if you have a question if you'd like to start a Heiser question call 866-34-TRUTH it's 866-34-TRUTH 87884 as long as it's relevant for Dr. Heiser.

He will gladly take your question so Mike what did the Israelites believe were they polytheist the root word today believe the manometry or have a CS for half, how do we understand there's only one true God. And yet the Bible talks about other gods like Exodus 15 become of her by name of the nine who is like you among the dogs all Yahweh right yeah my dear, that person like that mean exactly what that really related that we don't have don't have it. Oh, oh Lord, who is like you among cartoon characters or unicorns or leprechauns debate being that actually God challenges them in defeat ability is superior to them. When I came across Yosemite to I naturally tried to find your evangelical forces help help me through the woods here and unfortunately a lot of the budget the issue a lot of translations budget to comedy to God.

It against the other Elohim group of Elohim I said you are Elohim thunders about part of the daily on all of you so the most high God of Israel. So these are the sons of God, and a lot of evangelical forces with people is it is the Israelite judges go to Psalm 89 you have the sons of God there in the same household language in there. It and have not.

So this is quite obviously a spiritual counsel counsel of divine being disembodied.

Being that I didn't know what to do with it, but eventually again God providentially led me to think carefully through this. It became the subject of my dissertation. A lot of other things in which you have and why there's a disconnect when we see the letters G Owen the inner Bible or anywhere three and whatnot our brain again just because of who we are as modern Westerners or modern Christians. Our brain immediately assigned to that of unique attributes to the letters GOD that is not the way it Israelite thought about the word Elohim you know that Mike are you making it up as it make you feel better now we know that because of the way Elohim is actually used a half-dozen different thing in the Hebrew Bible, so that the family percent of 2813 is called Elohim, the God of the nations are called Elohim, the God of the counselor called Elohim you got Deuteronomy 3217 under the tradename both English Bible translators. Demons are called Elohim not alone should tell you that a biblical writer when he wrote Elohim and heck was not finding a set of attributes to that word if he thought that we could never use that word of any other entity other than the God of Israel doesn't do that how you lead. We just do that because of the waiver train what what Elohim actually mean the reason why she different entities as you would use that term. If you were describing or labeling a being in the spiritual world being that is by nature disembodied and belongs to the spiritual around so open, unorthodox Israelite believer with David believer, Abraham, whoever he would believe. Again, over there in the spirit realm is locked ability because Elohim means your perspective synonym for "spirit and Yahweh lived there. Yahweh is an Elohim, but no other Elohim is garlic Yahweh get singled out in the Hebrew text, the Hebrew Bible and is described in unique ways, all somber and omnipotent creator of everything visible and invisible, that would make Yahweh unique. I like to use the phrase species unique and that's what true Orthodox Israelite would believe there is only one, but in the spirit realm. There's a lot developing but none of them real thing in unique and to use academic terminology is ontologically different and superior all of their God. So, in the sense that we would define God as the eternal creator.

There is one and only one God. Everything else is created by him. Is that what is that what God is saying to himself in the book of Isaiah that I think the statement that there is none beside me there is none like me there not statements of exclusivity like I'm the only Elohim the because that creates a pretty obvious self-contradiction in the Hebrew Bible. Their statement that I am alone unique is none like me in various respects and there is none like you and in addition to me, there is no other like me and that I prayed about 10 different praises scholars call in comparability statement. But in different ways to say that Gabriel the most common there is none beside me actually show up in Isaiah and Zephaniah where respectively.

You got Babylon and Nineveh claiming in the text there is none beside me. Obviously they're not detected thing that only Babylon the world.

Your problem is the only city in the world in a Nineveh production. I very obviously not with text means.

It means that Babylon and Nineveh claiming to be superior in comparable and that's the thing that we need to approach these phrases because I don't believe that the Scripture is internally contradictory. I think it's a consistent worldview. Our God is saying.

The Hebrew Bible telling us in the spirit realm. There's lots of being that it Israelite would call Elohim generically that sort of the umbrella term but Yahweh among the unique, there is no God like he is the God of God is the Elohim ability. He is the Lord of lords can all be pleased, famous and unfamiliar descriptions we get of the God of Israel and other there's no question that there's only one.

Of those, by definition, the way that Yahweh gets described this to all of that is impacted and transmitted through the term Elohim and really when you just go over to a New Testament mentality that that in certain ways, pulls the curtain back even more intense as in Ephesians 6 were battling principalities and powers in heavenly places, or in in first Corinthians 10 second Corinthians 10 that that that these are not not constitute demons. So he's he saying there of course is the spiritual realm Jesus and stealing the spirit beings constantly.

So if this is obvious that a precise translation, but if someone just translated Elohim with spirit beings this minute of it has to do with powering things with effortlessness to say we transit with spirit beings and submit there's only one ultimate spirit the greater whole thing to me that's that's that's what's being said and yet there are question in a western mentality we really downplay the spiritual realm which are so real in ancient Israel and real for the New Testament writers wrote it's really you know this as well as I do the academic. It will blow some helmet take references the plural Elohim and try to argue Israelite religion evolve from polytheism to monotheism and I rejected that in my dissertation that was quite a tap dance get a PhD in effector but have not and reject that because that's what everybody's thinking, but it obvious again that this one Elohim describe the way that only other ones do.

But somehow that the paradigm that reinforces what they want to know you used a couple of terms my knowledge.

Early on Israelite Orthodox Israelite, but certainly my knowledge. That's the word refers to worshiping only one that's very clearly Old Testament demands that the faithful believing Israelite worship only Yahweh healthier than I think is also ruled out by the whole panoply of the usage of Elohim, because look at what health penalty is preserved and appears and presumes gathers one God among many is on the top of the heap.

But he could be replaced and happy is itself doesn't really distinguish the one at the top, ontologically, or in terms of attributes, just as he got there because it was the most popular. He was perceived as beating the lightning and then is absolutely ruthless in terms of worshiping idols and bowing down to spirits that will created by the one true God, and many of whom are in rebellion is very resilient against God in the Bible, the spiritual realm. You are listening to a previously recorded broadcast Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown, just a quick reminder in case notice you don't own bogus biblical sulfur there just come out with version 7 the premier Bible software.

I keep realizing how little I know about how much is are keeping stunned but but what I have in the software and how much is available when Yorty throw website with it. The cold line of fire five modifier five we order it through our website, you get a 15% discount on all entry-level packages, so it's it's a great thing to take advantage of Hamlet sure sure I give you the right code here, let me just check to be sure, yet line of fire. Five.

Get a 50% discount on all of packages that you order and then Lagos is kind enough to donate 15% of each sale to see if you have it you keep on you think use that code and you be a blessing to us at the same time speaking with Dr. Michael Heiser, author of the book the unseen realm Mike, I want to talk about the battle in the heavenly's was there some type of cosmic conflict is the Bible lead to better their seven headed monsters that that Yahweh defeated want to ask at the moment. First, let's grab a couple of calls will start in Fort Lauderdale, Florida Max, welcome to the line of fire Credo and doing well. Go ahead sir okay and regular argument. There Okay today I want to bring more evidence you have a question. You have a question for Dr. Heiser that we that we don't have unskilled respect to time.

I guessed and in fact, since you give me a different name there when you call last time you pass on this ring, I feel free to call me that today will chat Eric in Boston your question for Dr. Heiser hi� I think you both on my question has to do with how do we go about what the methodology that you Dr. Heiser in determining what it should. Ancient Israelite belief perhaps maybe like I'm letting you write about the estate going to collect believed in like a flatter with the development of but you don't believe that. So how do you how you go about determining okay this is actually true and efficient perspective of the ancient Israelites in the Bible. I like the bather that I give God credit for knowing what he was getting what he called people and move people to produce Scripture word if God wanted client and material produced through the tools of science when he chose someone in the second millennium BC that is sort of a counterintuitive proposition. God knew what he was getting God knew what his own purposes were he's not going to prompt an ancient writer to produce things that the ancient writer cannot know I got this perfectly fine with that and that audit hello if we find intelligent God, which I think we obviously should that God knew what he wanted. He was wise when he chose, and what was produced. He was happy with it should tell us that his goals again were not to have a second millennium or first millennium BC Israelite produced modern science and modern cosmology God. It would've been absurd for God to expect that God is not the third thing again, these are the sort of thought that I have again in an unwanted God but that he actually want them to do. God allowed ancient writers to use the language that was at their disposal in their head in their framework to communicate the people of their own heart and if you think about it if the point is affirming dualism, clear creator creation distinction who the creator is that where created were responsible for that creator against big picture theological thought those things transcend time, science will change constantly, but God was wise enough to have biblical writers produce theology, using whatever language they could. That transcends all that is timeless for you to take this little bit further, I think we are bound to embrace as Revelation what God had these writers write when it comes to the spiritual world because the world cannot be tested with the tools of science. That world is beyond the tools so while on the one hand, again, God would not choose people to produce something they can possibly know, preventing the absurdity we can evaluate the natural God of course knew we would do that he would move people to discover this or that thing in Providence that was fine with God. But we don't have those older disposal because we are embodied be. We live in the terrestrial world. God is created for and so we have to trust God that the biblical writers produce against something. He was completely satisfied with and we need to embrace those truths of the spirit world world. It again. This can't be analyzed and evaluated with school and so if an ancient Israelite actually believe that there were windows in heaven.

Windows in the sky that were opened up and the rain came down to the windows or if they believe that that was just metaphorical language that's that's not what the Bible is seeking to communicate which is what it is he can communicate his Casa creator God controls this and and and God has purposes for all of this as opposed to know that that in ancient Israelite probably would've thought that the sun rose in the sunset. That would be the logical thing was interesting is through history until people realize that the Earth went around the sun.

If the Bible taught the other people would've dismissed the Bible for being wrong for most of history. We have to give God some credit here if he if he wants to produce again something that would satisfy the modern 21st-century scientific mind is fully aware what I'm writing in a thousand BP is right no and we have got a pretty good thing and I didn't want that. Okay but note but don't write that because that could be wrong. Three or 4000 years. Again, God knew what he was doing and he knew what he was getting he had providentially prepared all the writers to produce the thing he wanted produced benefit if there incapable of it. At some point, and God one require that he would step in and make sure that the revelation that he wanted given to was found again the weekly.

I don't why we do know we do it as a reaction to scientific atheism, which many people I I'm frankly one of them. I think that's an oxymoron but we do it because of this part of the compulsion to use client to beat the Bible. Go ahead and my retort is always you know why are you mad at the Bible for not producing what was never intended to produce where you met the Bible for not being what it was never intended to be, are you mad at your dog for not being a cat are you met your son for not being a daughter.

If you can. If you can show me restrictive that this approach makes any sense at all.

In the real world and we can have a conversation right now. Your proposition looking kind of dumb because it's just it produces such a misguided result in proceeds from the deeply flawed assumption, but again we we claim to be atheist and when we try to make Scripture near biblical writers produce thing that God knew they were capable of producing that we actually entrap Scripture with our own good intention here to defend the Scripture which is a big mistake again.

My view yeah and and listen, and thank you for great question Eric. When we understand that the purpose of Genesis 1 is to teach us about God more than to teach us about science. Then we Were supposed to get out of it and understand that everything that God says that with the following believe is true hate go to ask Dr. Brown.org check out a really great resource for the unseen realm is you are listening to a previously recorded broadcast.

It's the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 664 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

This is the kind of conversation I could have many hours speaking with Dr. Michael Heiser's book the unseen realm came out last year and we got lots of great responses to the interview we did fact we we re-aired it a couple times when I was traveling the two hours expensive.

So glad to get another hour with Dr. Heiser.

If you enjoy Lagos biblical software. With so many of you do you can thank Dr. Heiser for his expert work as scholar in residence overseeing so much of the work in tagging. If you been through it, my man.

I can just cover over this word in English and no tell me what is in Hebrew or Greek, you're talking to the man who tagged verse after verse after verse in the Bible.

Michael what was it like going through Word for Word the Bible the way you did, obviously, was it was grammatical it was you were doing things like that but yeah that's something that most of us will never ever ever doing we can read the original languages to go through that meticulously were you able to to get more out of Scripture or you so absorbed line by line.

It was, it was challenging. Yeah, I actually enjoyed it and you do notice that I felt like a scribe. Some days you do notice things that you otherwise wouldn't notice you when you have to hand length. Every word of the translation.

I did the whole thing games are the part of the NIV and it was another when II Kerala with which why I did that when we got a lot of the different projects. But when you've been handling every word of the translation to the word or segment in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, from which it derives.

You really do don't notice things at a granular level and yeah I took note by going to look that up to run the third. I loved it as an enjoyable experience for the year next year to do one reverse interlinear working through three hours a day of I love to get questions about the game because I'm probably the only person in the world was ever gone through every word in a handling segment you get to know it really well.

Translation. It was fun night. I really enjoyed it yet, let's let's just think of one little thing out to see the King James is beautiful classic is a new believer ready cover to cover several times memorized thousands of verses out of it, but many times it is consistent with the use of the word same word by the same author in the same context should be translated the same way protection like Austin there with having to do with with weakness and and when you're going through Paul. Talk about weakness and any changes to infirmity mimic the King James is imperfect and that either yeah we we sometimes forget that the King James was like modern translations.

A committee translation, knowing, and that the translators are different points in different book. You could tell I get if you did the exercise. I did the work. You could tell when a translator who really knew his Hebrew better than one of the other guys that work in a different portion of human example again.

And in Hebrew, you have the demonstrative pronoun. Let's dictate who they are functioning as a demonstrable or personal pronoun they can know when you're talking programmable as the two possible functions, but can also be used as the copula of the linking verb to be or is in English because that's just the way it was usually occasion for their books and games were that the transmitter just wanted every instance that knew his Hebrew really well and caught all of B. Another place where they really didn't know what to do with it. You could tell that they were confused at some point so there are things like that. In the King James, they may again have had a difficulty with the word of grammatical point like that where you have quote unquote inconsistencies but by and large that the King James is a good translation. There's a reason it held up so long I'm I was like you I was leaned on it as a Christian predator several times that