Dr. Brown Talks with Dr. James White

Is my joy and privilege to sit together with my friend Dr. James White phone lines are open and we will cover a wide range of subjects with when the world's leading Christian apologists stage for the line of fire, your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

You know why I just noticed something very seriously out of order on twitter the prescriptive little one.

Paul said that people should follow him as he followed the Messiah Hebrew word from a seismic shock. I just noticed on twitter that machine is now following me. Actually, this is someone who identifies as he is the Messiah himself. Look at that, but he's now following me.

Hopefully we can set him straight. With the help of my guest, Dr. James White. It should be a breeze. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to the line of fire. Our phone lines are open. If you have a question of any kind that you been wanting to ask Dr. White theological question, a question about apologetics ministry related. I all means give us a call number to call 866-34-TRUTH 784 a for those not familiar with yet another colored named apologist.

I am Brown.

He is white.

Sorry for the lack of creativity. There, but for those not familiar with Dr. White. He is one of the world's leading Christian apologists he has made a name for himself debating Muslims around the world to be any Mormons to beating atheists debating Jehovah's Witnesses, agnostics, Catholics, different groups, some completely outside the pale of faith. James and I have debated each other on a doctrinal issues with in the faith, and he was in town. Teaching a reformed theological seminary for several days now was able to stay over and do some ministry for our community in North Carolina. James welcomes on fire.

It's great to be with you and studio in we done this before, but as always, your little travel thing exactly exactly. So this is our first time in studio. I've done it on Skype when you're with your broadcast James's website, AO, MI, and as an alpha and omega a OMI and.or hate just for the record, do we work at our friendship because of our doctrinal differences or is it quite natural that were friends in the Lord. Good question. I mean you know if the filing is you've mentioned a couple times that even after our first encounter. When I moderated your debate with an aberrational cat which is still to me why the more eye-opening experiences I had a pretty honest with you I mean that was IN the much moderation I but I been doing debates but that that debate was. I told you what I wrote deny about five minutes into his opening statement.

Yeah I wrote on my on my notepad. I said the Pharisees still live because it was amazing.

It was just like walking back into the end of the day into the New Testament and hearing it all over again. Yet it was amazing but you told me that sense that since that time we cross swords about something on on the Internet and I don't know if it's just that I'm getting really old and my memory is bad or more properly prom probably ice or have a filter and I only remember positive stuff goes that far back, but I don't remember I don't remember are doing that. I remember you sending me your book.

Israel's healer was just divine healer yeah I member you sending that to me. I don't remember what prompted it that not sure. It may just been say hey here's some academic work on the I will be be different for me.

It was never negative in. In other words I do that you are a solid guy had respect for that and I and I'm totally at home with with differences within the body. We learn from each other me.

None of us has is a perfect perspective.

But yeah, I remember a little bit. We went back and forth but it was in a collegial way but friends if you want to see the essence of our relationship go to my website.

Asked Dr. Brown.org and click on latest video right S Dr. Brother click on latest video we posted on Facebook and in about two hours it's been viewed 36,000 times and reached over hundred thousand people with over 1400 likes you'll find out why. When you go there will be right back we get to some serious substance on the line of fire file line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown my website out latest articles of got a couple that I wrote for the weekend one on Ted Cruz, Donald Trump and New York values and one other that asked the questions Donald Trump, a double minded man read them look at them, think them through because these are important issues as we move ahead into election season 866-34-TRUTH 87884 is number. Call if you have an apologetics question of any kind. You may have a New Testament textual question anything at Dr. White's areas of expertise were glad to take your calls and if you differ with him on an issue of Dr. Whited and I are joyful debaters will gladly have a civil discussion about areas of difference. James how did you get into apologetics in the first place. I blame elders Reed and Reese, the Mormon church.

Shortly after I got married got married very young age. Very thankful for that. They showed up at my sister-in-law's house and she invited me over to talk to them that began my study of Mormonism and for many years. That was the primary thing we focused upon, but I am so thankful Michael that fairly early on I was dragged out of just focusing upon one group dealing with wider issues, but in that study of Mormonism. No one ever walked up to me and told me this, but somehow, someway I became convinced that whenever you're dealing with someone even some you disagree with. You have to be consistent in the arguments that you're using against that particular group.

Explain well I'll use and I'll use an illustration. One of the arguments of people using is book Mormon is at one point, the book of Mormon says that Jesus was born in Jerusalem, but we all know it is more baffling, not Jerusalem. Well, I Artie knew enough at that age to know that there even places in the Old Testament where one particular major city will will be used to identify an entire region and so I would II immediately recognized. I don't know that I could go there without argument, knowing that I might have to defend right the Old Testament utilizing an argument that makes me inconsistent and salt because I Artie had a fairly strong biblical background.

At that time and was was growing and that I've just always been very, very convinced that what should mark Christian apologetics is, as I said, my Muslim friends even scales to use the economic terminal. Yes, my mother, my biggest problems with some like should be Raleigh, with whom I've debated many times is that he will use one set of arguments to defend the cut on and a completely different set of arguments in a different methodology a contradictory methodology to attack the Bible and if you do that you're demonstrating inconsistency. And that's a sign the failed argument that one of my most widely distributed articles is one called unequal weights and measures which deals with the same issue with counter missionary rabbis to say that if you want to have an unsympathetic reading of the New Testament knows any possible contradiction expose and jump on then you need to use the same hermeneutic when you do with the Old Testament and then with rabbinic literature and also if you disqualify the New Testament and in 10 minutes shall disqualify the Old Testament in one minute in the Talmud and 30 seconds so someone wrote back and said but they're not equal because we really have our we already have our interpretive methods built in and out of which we don't have to interpret this literally, but that yummy sleep can't do that out 11 Rabbi Irving Greenberg, to paraphrase, once made the comment. It's not fair to compare the worst things about someone else's religion with the best things in hours but we do that all the time don't. Unfortunately, it happens constantly and that I learned early on that we were going to have to take a little different road than many of the people dealing with Mormonism or whatever because this was going to limit the number of arguments that we are going to build a present because we couldn't use the most popular ones. Maybe the ones we get people to be the most excited we are to have to stick with serious arguments that were going to be requiring us to be more biblically literate more biblically centered in our apologetics and I've tried to continue that in dealing with what with whatever subject that is of the were engaging, but especially over the past number of years in dealing with Islam about arousing. I'm taking a lot of heat for that right now.

I really really am, and especially from Christians giving example well what I've been taking heat for recently is the fact that I do see Islamic phobia.

Now that the net for term first came out I five I viewed it like homophobia it's it's a it's a baseball bat. He used to beat somebody up with the doesn't really have any meaning it's it you're using it improperly, but I've come to recognize that there there is an element of Islamic phobia out there amongst evangelical Christians and basically what it is, is when I try to say it look Islam is a is a major world religion and therefore there is going to be all sorts of different expressions of its if you dare say that it not enough. There is only one Islam and its ISIS and therefore you have to deal with all Muslims and if they don't agree with ISIS than actually the lying to you, or their inconsistent I go mobile but will wait wait a moment when you and I both. I can guarantee you've had somebody accuse you of being a secret follower of the Westboro Baptist Church right right okay throughout else God hates fags. That's right, and will when I first debated Barry Lynn in 2001 on homosexuality. Guess who he brought up in his opening statement, but Fred Phelps.

It actually I wasn't called Fred Phelps, minus the signs. Well I did you ever meet him know? I did. He was, he and some of his people were outside the the Mormon Gen. conference in Salt Lake City and I went to him and I tried to talk to him and Michael. It was the most cultic experience I've ever I've ever encountered. It really was John Rankin is an intellectual and whose the many debates and is is gracious and civil and debates is as you could ask for debated Fred Phelps and he said it was the use the word spooky, yet it basically the most frightful experience of seeing someone that wasn't even there that there was just that I had the exact same spirit as when I walked up to him.

I introduced myself as a Baptist minister, so there was a moment of all, you know, at type type thing and I think I mentioned that I debated Barry Lynn or some like that so and so there was like all about someone, but then as soon as I know I said I said, but we must speak the truth in love. I quoted Scripture Ephesians 4 a a a veil came down he clearly used a signal that was a prearranged signal with all of his people.

God hater God hater and they just descended on me got between me and him got me separated from him to start screaming me down. It was it was an incredible experience so that the point being you and I both have had that false accusation made against us and we want to be able define our own positions.

I don't want to be held accountable for what the Pope says on care which pulpit is right. I have my own personal beliefs and I want to be held accountable for what they are. If we are going to demand that of ourselves and we have to be able to extend that exact same race to someone else and as I do that in my encounters with Muslims, I discovered that there is a lot of divergence and differences between them and the more I study about Islamic history, the more I realize most Christians have no idea what the Malik E school of jurisprudence is of the Hon Billy Schooler how those disagree howling down over the solid fees are the Wahhabi user or any of these these types of things are so vitally important.

We just it it's unafraid.

For some people it's easier to just simply throw everybody into the same basket and say let's deal with them. Let's not make all the sub put out all the effort to make the distinctions and I still think as Christians we can do that. The latest book that I downloaded last night is entitled refuting ISIS as a bundle of its religious and ideological foundations by Shaikh Mohammed all you could be and in the description it says the Islamic state in Syria and Iraq constitutes the most serious threat. Islam has ever faced to justify its horrible crimes, and appeals to Muslims around the world. ISIS has based its ideology on a superficial and literalist approached to the sacred text of Islam, and he goes on from there. There was a Muslim leader in India who said these are not Muslims there criminals wearing masks now. What others say deception there. The Muslims are all lying to you right. I'm sure some why, but in point of fact, these are sincere Muslims who sincerely deplore ISIS and Al Qaeda, etc. and who have put their lives on the line to do so. That particular book you just downloaded. I read on a metric century ride three weeks ago. Okay. And so I have it indexed according to that rock that I took and there are couple other books is caught one called the great theft by Fadi that you might find to be very useful as well. Again, as soon as you point this out your accused of defending Islam. I'm not defending Islam. I have been very clear in all of my debates. Anybody who listens and debates of done even in the mosques. I always bring the gospel. I recognize that if you're gonna believe that Mohammed was a prophet. If you deny the crucifixion of Christ. We can deny that Jesus Christ, the son of God, you have been separated from eternal life. You can say all you want about loving Jesus. That's not the right Jesus and so I firmly believe that any follower of that system of belief, whether radicalized or not radicalized needs to know who Jesus Christ is but if I want to reach both the Wahhabi Muslim as well as the non-Wahhabi non-solid fee more classical type of of most of goes back to the classical age I have to allow them to find where they are so I can communicate with them properly. If I assume that the only Islam is.

This is one kind Islam.

I'm not to communicate the gospel clear that then and you're involved in this more heavily and I would like. I get flax that same thing. Although we constantly post against radical Islam affected identified as radical and go to say Islam I'm not a bad guy, placing it well for looking backward by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown why did Ray comfort just email me asking me if James white and I've seen the movie free will and why did he do that to to find out go to a ester to Brown that are click on latest videos. You'll get a kick out of that. 8660. I kicked another kick.

That was another part.

Yes, 866-34-TRUTH 87884 if you have a question for Dr. White or for me today is Martin Luther King Day and it's it's a day when we we celebrate his legacy and so the civil rights for me.

It's also a day when we realize how deep the divide still in some parts of America between between rated races and ethnicities and one reason that this often happens is we don't know each other.

We don't listen to each other or we listen but we don't really listen we don't really hear and understand. So for me the first principle in apologetics is to make sure that I rightly understand with the person saying this often you answer.

Sometimes I radio, I think, understand the question for this wonderful answer.

And this is that health legal actually what I meant was all sorry missed it in terms of the Muslim world when you got involved when when you got burden to start getting involved with Islamic apologetics and outreach, etc. did you have surprises along the way she began to interact with Muslims or were spent time in a mosque and talk to the shakes of the imam or things like that would raise is a surprised if it will yeah I I continue to be surprised. I will always just be a student of Islam is far too large of a of the subject. I think with the amount of time I have left in this in this world ever become truly expert on because the volumes that it would have to be and to repeat its mass many is massive so but I lots of of surprises special because of what initially motivate motivating addicts I got into it because I was studying the persecuted church and if you're going to look at the persecuted church in the world today, you have to look at Islam because Islam is the one the primary sources of persecution of the Christian church and so I started listening to the various apologists that are out there and some there is there is a there is a street level. Islam that is not overly reflective.

It does not show a serious interaction with Christian scholarship.

There is a street level Islam that really doesn't, I think. Take truth seriously.

It's we had a recognize sense Islam is a political religious system, a religion no political system depending on percentage of people you have a lot of nominalism and Islam get a lot of people are simply born as a Muslim, their connection to it is cultural.

It's not like true Christianity, where there is a personal commitment and silvicultural Christian it's it's it almost exactly nominal Christianity nominal Islam.

Both are pretty can get pretty ugly and have in history both both salt so you got that kind of Islam where there is really no interest shown on theirs. There side to really understand what were saying but then I discovered those individuals who transcend that who have a serious commitment. There is one scholar here in United States that unfortunately numerous conservative websites are constantly securing him based upon an edited version of a talk he gave over a decade ago I've complained about this many times but shake Asser Codey is his name.

Dr. Yasser Codey. He is an imam in Memphis and we had a fair amount of interaction and I remember him I was listening to a lecture that he was giving to Muslims is one of things I like to listen to is Muslims talking most of the growing will I find out someone actually believes listen to the internal conversation, not the conversation in a silly having toward us and I member him saying very clearly when he says why are we having our young people memorize a book in a language they cannot speak when we do not teach them to actually live the principles that it enunciates in their break their normal life and I resonated with that I like hear someone who in their community is actually trying to believe and to be consistent what they're doing and and and and things like that. Very different from the nominal type Muslim so yeah there there've been lots of surprises along the way and you've debated in significant mosques. Yes you mama student Durban South Africa okay and and then in England. Yes, they get East London mosque largest mosque in Europe I and writes the largest mosque in Europe you've had if you had a gas terms of say when you're in South Africa what percentage was Christian, what percentage Muslim in the debate ON the audience is alien fighting is in a couple of the mosque debates that the Christians outnumbered the Muslims, which we didn't like right right but in in South Africa. It was always 90% Muslims & Christian and how many death threats. Did you get from the people are. That would mean none none. We were all right Harry, your security because you had a large entourage. I had not even a single person well mom Rudolph might my dear friend down there you know he stands next me but that I didn't I didn't ultra detail help you don't have people post it note to take out assassins and all that right. Nothing like the reason I'm saying that is because you forthrightly differed with Islam all exceeded your jump on the Quran and you smash it and say ditto and a towel behind by name, but I said it was an error right there in front of them. Yes right right and they still didn't try to take your head off and you know why because I showed them the respect of accurately representing what they believed.

Even in disagreement. And when you when you look at them and honestly say I love you for the sake of Jesus Christ, I want to accurately represent you and I want you to hear what I'm saying. Most Muslims even know what to do with you when you do that because they're not accustomed that they're not accustomed to having an end. They should be. This should be how all returns are approaching them exact, but they're not accustomed out there accustomed to.

Again, being thrown into into one pile just like we get treated in the same way by Muslim Muslims like America's Christian they say right act. In fact, I debated a Palestinian scholar is allowable all room who in the course of our debate on the deity of Christ on house came up said America invaded up Christianity invaded Iraq and put it Christianity sends pornography around the world exact. That's how they view it exactly right in and see when God laid on my heart to get involved in homosexual issues 11 years ago. The word in my heart was reach out and resist reach out to the people with compassion resist the agenda with courage while here in America. I want our government to to name radical Islam by name.

I want them to understand the radical murderous ideology that flows through one stream of Islam. She could adequately fight it but at the same time there are a multitude of people who are not � that you want to reach out to and that's that's the challenge. The scary part like is how how can we get the government to do that when the government is so committed to a secular worldview right that there's no way when I can't get most Christian leaders to understand the difference between one hobby who, who, even to a meal was any of these specific things. How in the world can we expect a secular government to make those distinctions in a compartment, especially when it's thinking politically in this real exact radiology say friends speaking with Dr. White for two hours today in studio to listen to the entire interview go to asked Dr. Brown a SK DR Brown.org just click on latest broadcast later today. Hate, we want to be a blessing to you.

We put five of my most popular messages five most popular sermons on a CD and it's yours for your gift of any size get a call in to take advantage of this, but your gift of any size want to send this out as our thank you gift to edify strength and you like fresh frying your heart, give us a call stand with us. 1-800-278-9978.

That's 1-800-278-9978. If you been a blessing to stand with us in this CD will be a blessing. She was well it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker, and Dr. Michael Brown voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 8664 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown think too much for joining us on the line of fire is assumed by good friend Dr. James White. If you have not seen our video today are inspirational video inspirational. Let's see here. Yellow inspired my son to criticize my my very very poor boxing. Yours and mine, but I again I knew Bennett and I was a was that hitting hard surface like it to me. But let's see Facebook page. It's been viewed out in the three hours 41,000 times.

It's got over 1500 likes it's reached almost 114,000 people and it's getting its first a few hundred views on YouTube if you want to know why this video is going viral. You'll have to see it for yourself.

All I like this from here completely bow down, ready to use, throw this knockout right hand of all right 866-34-TRUTH if you have a question for Dr. Whiting for me. Let's let's grab a phone call on the corny in Dayton, Ohio.

Welcome to the line of fire. What you who will you go to Manheim corny from the auto hello yes go ahead please. Okay, yeah, you know where my somehow the satisfaction rate on the label to view the light ground that I delay the most of them when they got to the question that the what should the same God.

I looking good if you answer the question correctly let me assist. First, how would you characterize how we've each answered the question. Consent of the bees answered at the same but but how would you characterize how we've both answered the question. Her eye anger. I pretty much probably to beat look-alike make some sense because you got better working acknowledging that Muslims and Christians worship the synagogue from some of your stoical perspective. So I'm a little bit satisfied with and I believe that God was on that made such a comment, but I don't think I saw that kind of loan.

In your answer and the second thing is that most also salute what your position answer microstation for recovery. I think I'm saying because Christians normally trump to tackle this question from the nature of God.

That seems due to the change doing the other two religions do not do not express the same view on the nature of the cargo cult.

Therefore the friend got to carry out his website does the same thing but I think such a perspective, really long because I believe the firstborn acknowledgment of the same person and that has to be that you got the stick and that everything was.

Dance on deck perspective make you jump onto the need to present themselves the integrity of the community.

The Trinity is little controversial even though many feet, built a time truck. She's to him walk them without mesh and unlocked trees.

So you can't even stand on that so well. I would, I would certainly very, very strongly disagree with you that point, it is just as foundational in definition Christianity to believe that she is the son of God, the dog, the Trinity, as it is for you to believe as if I'm assuming correctly from your perspective, or for a muscle anyways to believe that Mohammed is the final prophet and if Islam has the right, for example, to reject the awkward D sect because they have a profit after Mohammed there is far more evidence the New Testament of the Trinity. Then there is a finality of Mohammed and nobody coming after him.

So I think we both need to have the right to define her own face, but I'm I'm glad you recognize that when I address the subject when the videos I did. I said the answer.

The question is yes and no. And I'll guess I'll expand upon that the second and appreciate the respectful tone will continue discussion on the other side of the great on the one hand you I believe it's yes and no.

But I believe it's a strongly no key reasons that's also destroy my popular article in an academic lecture, more nuanced, the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 86. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown soon to Muslims and Christians worship the same God question that was raised by our listeners.

So I mispronounced her name initially served and realize the endless silence of corny from Dayton Ohio a taking issue with an article that I wrote.

It's, of course, Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God, my purpose in that article was to underscore us.

Yes, it's true that the three primary monotheistic faith, studious and Christian Islam. All believe in eternal uncreated Creator God, to whom all human beings must one day give account but self-evident Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, but we in my main point there was to educate people on the God of Islam and the fundamental differences so that they would understand that Muslims do not relate to all law the same way that we relate to our heavenly father. That was the purpose of it, but yes, it should be a nuanced discussion so James White. Dr. White want to continue and then corny you get to where they can be.

Go ahead James. Well I just wanted us want to point out that the Quran says insert all uncoupled so would serve 29 I have 46 and dispute not with the people of the book saving the most virtuous manner unless it be those of them who have done wrong and say we believe in that which was sent down under us and was sent down unto you, our God and your God are one and unto him, we are submitters and so the canonic answer that is provided is yes there is wheat we are worshiping the St. this is one God and this is a claim that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Ishmael especially are is all one God that historically, the God revealed himself in that way that that is the God of of which were speaking okay but the problem is both Christianity and Islam on a temporal level come at a later point in time, and God did not stop in his rebel revelatory action the Muslim has to believe that there's been much Scripture has been revealed since the days of Abraham.

We believe that the New Testament is real and we believe that God did something absently amazing in the fact that in the second person of the Trinity. He entered into his own creation, which is the fundamental difference tween, Christianity, Islam, and even Judaism is the ability of of God to be able to do this and is willing the stability of this but we believe that God has now testified of himself. He is testified of his son. He is poured out his Holy Spirit. And so it is definitional for the Christian to accept what God has done in time. Just as we accepted, giving the Scriptures we have to believe the revelation is made in that way as well.

And so when I answer this question I I say it's a yes or no question. Yes, historically, the claim is made that the one God who spoke to Abraham. We believe that that is that that was our God, the Muslim state that is our God, but we say in this is the funnel to restrain Christian Islam that that God has then revealed himself in a spectacular way. In the incarnation of Jesus Christ and so for us when we did the real the real key here that's been missed in most discussions is the word worship is not just simply a dry academic definition of God were talking about worshiping God and if word asking, do we worship the same God. The only way you can worship God is in the way he is revealed himself to be and that's actually something that Muslims would have to agree with that is they don't believe you can just worship God anyway you want a law has defined the ways in which that's to be done and we believe the same thing and so I say no because Islam has gone away from that revelation and denied that revelation and I look at the basis upon which that that revelation is denied. In the Quran. I see no evidence that the author of the Quran had sufficient knowledge of what Christians actually claim to be able to even muster a meaningful argument against the incarnation and so that for me is extremely important in the analysis of whether Islam is a continuation of that one faith got it right.

Corny back to you now, and I will and are very, I do not believe that I are all ugly evolution. Mohammed Cooper okay but I just feel that one that I look the least bit toothless on, now you especially miss what is going on in the United States right now and that was my interest.

I I am also acknowledge that point.

What about the work worship is true that we daily use. If you want to come see the ward washed in a very deep sand and not on sites like but I think Dave asked what we code I believe the word was just you expect the acknowledgment of vaccine God yeah and listen again III respectfully coming from and there's always the question of who your audiences are.

In other words, when I'm trying to educate Christians to make them understand that the Muslims view of God is very very different than our son on a technical level, but on the reality level. In other words, it would be like you saying I really don't like Barack Obama and me say I really do like Barack Obama. But when I said Barack Obama. I was thinking Donald Trump and when you said Barack Obama you are thinking Ronald Reagan you know it's so there would be would be real differences there so that was my point. Obviously if I'm dealing with.

With Muslims and was having a discussion, debate, that's okay.

We both believe there's one job we both believe that you know I would try to find that to emphasize that's why started my article but fair discussion and I appreciate where you from originally corny a motorcycle cover. Cameron okay we we opened one of our ministry schools in Cameroon and I'm hoping to get over there very soon for graduation. But God bless you, thank you for the call and raising the issues much appreciated. Thank you alright so question as you have spent time with sincere Muslims. I had my own my own eyes open to sincere Judaism because I was raised in conservative Judaism which does not mean moral political conservatism.

It has another meaning but it's it's really liberal and its does not require a deep religious commitment. So when I met ultra-Orthodox Jews who prayed as much as I did, or more, and studied all day. Who were some of the sincerest nicest guys have ever met God honoring God fearing wanting to please him and love him talk about spiritual valleys and mountains and all these things I thought I expected them to say you were just kinda dead hypocritical Pharisee and not doing too bad. So one of my friends asked the rabbi how you doing should thank God.

I thought that's what we say their church we should praise the Lord. We should cancel the church I got saved like thank God you think about God day and night every every split split second. Is there a God conscious, and so on. That was an eye-opener for me. On the one hand, Islamic spirituality has a massive whole because Muslims do not have assurance of salvation do not know God as father do not have a finality, a sense of sins forgiven. But what have you found in a positive sense in terms of Muslim spirituality, for lack of a better word. See, this is even stand.

Isis is killing more Muslims than than anyone else right and one of the groups that they regularly kill are the Sufis now Sufism you can have. You can be a Sunni but also be influenced by Sufism. Sufism is just sort of well this are the charismatic right is right right in essence, okay, and Sufism developed because the fact that the textual nature of classical Islam tended to be rather dry and burdensome, and oriented toward performance and there wasn't really that spiritual aspect of connectedness God and that's of the Pacific movement rose up in in Eastern Europe in the 1700s under Phil and then the basketball shim told him reaction against the hyperlinked intellectualism and formalism that was taking place rabbinic Judaism so he put the emphasis upon the spiritual simplicity and and etc. you could argue though that this is an endemic to the sources of Islam because of the tremendous transcendence of the law. Yes, that the law, for example, would not have a son or that no one can ever call themselves the child of God or something lungs as well as her eyes, not father. And so you sorta have to it. It's difficult to see how Sufism can be consistent with the original sources of Islam in this abyss then raises the whole big question that were hearing calls for Reformation in Islam. What would that look like possible once sources could that possibly be drawn from yet and everyone that I read from the Islamic side that is calling for Reformation, but they're playing with is a very definitional foundational documents such as minimizing the role the hadith and and redefining how any any story in the hadith can can actually be used in interpretation of the Quran and things like that but the problem is if you get rid of the hadith, you're left with the cut on most people, but I know Christians have never read the code on most Muslims I know never the Bible, which is one of the reasons we do talk past each other. Most the time but the cut on is only 56% the length of the New Testament is only 14% the length of the Bible it sexy rather small volume and I just cannot possibly see how it could be sufficient. Once you get rid of all the traditions that become afterwards. I don't see how it can answer almost any of the meaningful question right and then at a certain point, the colonic interpretation ceases and Islamic history at that things are, locked in locked in by the right right back 866-34-TRUTH. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown here we are again white and brown little white yesterday morning in the Charlotte North Carolina area just the slightest slightest slightest almost dusting of snow that was nice while it lasted a little too cold for my Phoenix friend who's used to like 140 in the shade I was running in the snow. Yesterday you were. I got that look down it's all over me, like what is this white stuff that's with the white stuff was 866-34-TRUTH would okay Muslims pray religious Muslim five times a day if you had a guesstimate imagistic completely ridiculous guesstimate.

What percentage of the Muslim world actually practices that depends on where you are and whether it is culturally appropriate or not. So if you live in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan a good idea to do that right. If you live in Indonesia.

Not nearly as much pressure right but again I depends on where you are in the country to God, but I mean there are some countries you even ask somebody.

Are you a Muslim.

Yes, do you pray, do you do the prayers. That's what marks the Muslims from everybody else aware you were in South Africa while she said that the Muslims aren't aren't anywhere near majority there.

You have a lot of a lot of Indians, a lot of Indian Muslims.

We also have a lot of Hinduism and it's it's quite a mixed bag there in South Africa so it it does seem that when Islam is in a smaller percentage that the people who practice it actually believe it, over against just being nominal because that's her but is in that area and what what would be to you. One of the most nominal, most countries in the world. Well, a lot of the Middle Eastern countries where you felt North African countries is a number.

The Middle Eastern countries not so ill used to be Syria, Lebanon, places like that would have a lot of nominal Islam in it. But now with all the controversy over there. That's changing things. The Turkish Islam has been known for a long time as it be highly secularized.

That's changing a little bit is present. Leadership is strength that some absolutely so Moses, pray five times a day. The preset prayers. They'll have to pray in Arabic exactly if you don't understand Arabic well yeah Dr. Fran area.

It's exactly right. In fact I like asking people.

Have you ever seen someone come Muslim in most photo now and you have to say the shahada in Arabic. Let Elana Elana Mahon of Zillah you have to say that in Arabic and some has to lead you through that and ask how many of you major profession of faith in Christ in either biblical Hebrew or coin a Greek and you always find some seminary student granted and otherwise acre and puts his head up like that, but it is one of the major differences is that that language in that culture has been so attached.

The Jack have to make a profession of faith in a language you understand and what Dr. what you said is is there is no God but Allah sold to most of there's no God but God and Mohammed is the messenger of God. That's the shot.

It's the first of the five pillars of Islam, the confession, so if you talk to Muslims about having a prayer life right that's it. When we think of it, not every Christian is always an intimate fellowship with God all the time but but we take refuge in God in prayer and we spent time we pour our hearts that we fellowship. We share our lives with him. We we tell him what's going on in our hearts, we honor him. We worship and we adore him.

Muslims are basically just honoring and worshiping all law in the in their prayers.

This not the idea of a of a prayer life relationship and yet there there cannot be in again. The Sufis wanted to go elsewhere with this, but if you really understand the transcendence of the law, even effective, for example, he sends a condo he hasn't sent down directly to Mohammed. He sends it through an angelic intermediary gives it to the injured real. There cannot be that kind of intimate relationship. Now the more westernized or or even Sufi eyes Islam, you will have the expression was called the Neah which are the intentions that you have the desire is that you have in your prayers. Even before you do the Arabic of formal prayers and so there is the concept of of saying to God. God do this for me that these are my desires with that is there, but the idea of like an indwelling spirit of God and the intimacy of being the sons of God, the fellow that is that all of that is slain and yet no second Corinthians 1314 the fellowship of the Holy Spirit will coin and you know Luke 22 Jesus and to his disciples. I've eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer God's heart.

II know I call you servants my friends, Abraham, the friend of God that is offensive. In fact, if you listen if you listen to my debate which allowable all group at one point he makes a statement. He says I've been offended. We are angry here this evening is as I have been offended twice.

You talk about the previous debate he had done with David would actually whether Mohammed was a prophet. The terrible things were said about the prophet and then he said in regards to me and now you are ascribing a son to God and we are angry here taking it very personally that from their perspective to ascribe a son to God is to is one of the most heinous sins mentioned in the Quran now course, I asked the question but what did the author the cut on think ascribing a son to a law actually was, and it seems that a fair contextual reading of the Quran would be will that's the idea that a law took a wife Mary had a child, which is seems a bit certify 116 indicates their thinking the Trinity is a law Mary and Jesus and it's not what we believe in any way shape or form about the eternal relationship with the father and the son in any type of wife or anything along those lines so in an even even the.

The idea of it out.

I was preaching in India the first time 23 years ago and my translucent by the way, the Hindus have a hard time with the concept of son of God because they would think that God took a wife, but they have no problem with the concept of confrontation for fixer just say God came down with that God came down in the same way when people say their pagan parallels to the virgin birth.

There are none other the pagan parallel would be this deity comes down to earth, sleeps with a woman exactly as he as a man sleeps with a woman and she has a child, so it's not actually apparel and then we and probably this this of the loss of doctrinal purity is probably initially against polytheistic bullying, millennial, indwelling gelid, but has been interpreted consistently exactly and in Islamic history as being aimed directly at us.

At exactly so. In other words, that that dog was not born doesn't give birth. I initially would have been a reaction against polytheism and that there's no consort with him a bit, then it becomes an attack on Christianity, probably with Catholicism to with Mary, a very much so right so himself again.

Interesting how these things develop it, friends, at the very least, if you if you have the opportunity to get to know a Muslim get to know Muslim pray for divine appointments just so you could get to know them as a fellow human being and then realize that most of those being killed by radical Islam or Muslims friends visit Dr. White's website will get to some calls for those on hold in the next hour, so stay right there. Will do it very quickly in the new hour. Stick around 866-34-TRUTH number to call. Visit Dr. White's website a OMI and.org as an Alpha and Omega ministries.org a OMI and.org check out his book every Christian needs to know about the problem. He asked me to write an endorsement for it always genuinely surprised by how much depth they got into. I didn't know that you had actually studied some of the issues is deeply high because we never intersected their very helpful very important book. He's got lots of resources there.

He has a great Internet broadcast his ministry is worthy of support a OMI and.org France if we've been a blessing to this radio broadcast articles and other means to be a blessing to you through a new CD. We have five of our most popular message that will really stir your heart preaching sermons five messages on a CD for your gift of any size, give us a call one 800-278-9978 1-800-278-9978. My bottom line today, God's heart for the Muslim world is so great he sent his son to die for. Is my joy and privilege to sit together with my friend Dr. James White phone lines are open and we will cover a wide range of subjects with one of the world's leading Christian apologists stage for the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown to something that happened to me.

17 no. 16 years ago I was being deeply moved on to finish writing my book revolution and it was a call for Christians to live a revolutionary lifestyle not taking lives of others by giving our lives for the loss given their loss for the Stein world guerrillas for the cause of the gospel and this particular day it was, was a Monday. I was getting ready for major event in Houston, Texas, and I was writing the chapter on freedom and freedom being the driving force of revolution when people realize that not free. They want their freedom. They cry out for we have the ultimate message of liberty through the cross and I ended up downloading all of these quotes from Dr. King and I've had a number of Martin Luther King quotes when I finished writing that chapter I realized it was Martin Luther King Day, here, here we are powerful messages. I have a dream speech and we understand what he was saying not making a theological statement by the societal statement. I'm sitting here with Dr. James White and James you listen to things very analytically when we've done debates and I'm throwing out 15 Scripture I know, the one that is going to get your hackles raised like what are you saying that I know you won't miss it. As we hear Dr. King say that all God's children, Jews and Gentiles, etc. part of its biblical right role. His offspring is as creation right as his creation. But the idea they are all one big spiritual family you're not keen on that.

Not like I don't think anyone can be keen on that from a from a biblical perspective.

I don't know that it's the proper data analyzed.

He got unity of that I am say he didn't say it's the right rhinitis to set it in a way that we all affirm a member all the immigration there's one race that we all come from oh boxer Joe Lewis was once said a black box or your credit to your race, the human race so absolute no II wouldn't play that if I meant anything other than than honor, but since were sitting here is theologians, etc. there is the spiritual side that he wasn't addressing their that was not the emphasis there where were all just one big happy family. The problem is the number of our different religious faiths are mutually exclusive. Are they not they are and unfortunately I would. I would like to suggest that though today the pressure upon us is to compromise for everyone to compromise the uniqueness of their professions of faith.

That's not respectful to to my faith is not respectful to someone else's faith when when someone talks about Chris Lahm. You know, this idea can't the fact that some and Twitter just yesterday think it can't. Can't we all sort of just find a way of it would find some common ground here between the cut on in the Bible and insert build on the commonalities I have to go well, the, you know, we all breathe oxygen to that's not a sufficient crown for some kind of meaningful unity.

When you the cut on is written at a time where the Christian faith has been clearly defined and yet specifically denies fundamental aspects of that Christian faith specifically who Jesus Christ is the relationship of the father, and especially the denial, the crucifixion, how can you have Christianity without Jesus is who he is and what he did. It's not possible and right so if if Jesus is denied and the nature of God is deny in the possibly forgiveness through the atonement is is deny the resurrection right and then on the other side of Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets, etc. now you have a whole new revelation coming along. That is antichrist, that definition either. They're both wrong or what is right one is wrong for both cannot be right.

At the same time]. Got a question for Dr. Weatherly 866 line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown shoe very important time sensitive announcement ready just so someone tweeted out there on their way to Concorde North Carolina to hear Dr. white and they broke down. I sentiment the car broke down and hopefully they didn't break down.

Sad to hear that. I know you make a big trip where you're coming from. Sorry to hear that. If you're anywhere near Charlotte, North Carolina. Within an hour to drive Dr. white is delivering a lecture tonight about Islam what Islam is what you need to know about at the most leisure neighbor that you be constructive. It's can really help you have a heart to reach Muslims an intelligent way I can think of a better person to do this lecture with every Christian needs to know about Islam. That'll be tonight 7 PM. It's free, open to the public will receive an offering to help. Dr. White's ministry, but the lecture is free so come this plenty of room for everyone that wants to be there 7 o'clock tonight were right near Charlotte motor Speedway aright in Concorde mutely north of Charlotte. If you need the exact address.

Just go to fire � church.org fire � church.org seven tonight and then a week from this Thursday.

We have very few seats remaining for a night to ignite vision banquet.

Our first ever rally the greater Charlotte area. Our first ever vision banquet this is going to be a faith filled inspiring night. You will leave encouraged the Benton brothers will be speaking. I've got some key inspirational things to share with you.

We got a great free meal for you and we can give you an opportunity to partner with us really making a difference in America and around the world for info on that. But you need to RSVP as soon as possible.

Go tonight to ignite.com night to ignite.com. Let's go right to Concorde North Carolina will have our meeting tonight Eddie, welcome to the line of fire, and I don't know very well. I have a question for you. My first question is if there during the time of Ramadan. Is there a specific thing that Muslims pray for our light prayer against and then my second question is what is the best version of the Quran that we as Christians should I get kind of get cannot do a little bit of research, or things like that around out there are current translation. According to this gentleman or that gentleman and finally just explain one thing. Eddie, you'll always see that in the Cron translation because it's different than the Bible. Even though the Bible was given and primarily Hebrew and Greek with little Aramaic we still say it's the Bible when it's translated into English or any language which the Carranza Cron in Arabic so everything else is a translation of it and then it's it's it's a step removed in that regard because you can experience it in the she read it in Arabic but one quick question if if I recognize the voice you are Eddie, who served in Afghanistan after okay all right any did you run into Muslims much in Afghanistan reach will be separated with the American troops are no II did run into it. They were all called third country nationals.

They were allowed to work on the faith on the allegation that did you get to know any on any personal level. Little R and unfortunately I really I really wasn't able to allowed altercations that we had more. We had these things called bazaar and we we were security for the bizarre and a lot of a lot in common. They would sell their goods, but unfortunately kind of where we were almost segregated from them a little bit. If our direct mission wasn't to actually go work with the people.I appreciate so Dr. white your answers for any well in regards the second question first, there is a a new translation now that I'm on very very impressed with. It's called the study Quran, say eight Jos� Nasser is the editor-in-chief.

It's a Harper one publication. It is available on the on Amazon and so far I have found it to be extremely useful. Translation is extremely good and it represents a wide variety of Islamic scholarship. So I've been recommending that one to folks I used was called the majestic Ron in my book on the Quran, but this is a brand-new translation that so that's that's really really good and in and regards the first question Ramadan you then. The main thing that Ramadan is you need to understand that the Quran was revealed during the month of Ramadan. I was called Layla L.

Carter Layla Otto Cotter is the night of power.

And that was the night that the entire codon was given from a lot to jib real and then he parceled that out to Mohammed over 22 years. Their belief is that if you pray through the night on Layla at all.

Cotter your prayers will be worth far more in the sight of God than any other night of the year, thousands of times more than any other night of the year and so the problem is that God told Mohammed which nightly Otto Cotter was and when he came out to tell the people they had divided were arguing with each other and because they were arguing that shutter he forgot which night it was and he couldn't tell him so.

Muslims believe that Layla Otto Cotter is either the 21st 23rd, 25th or 27th night of the month of Ramadan. If there is 1/29 to do the lunar thing that it could be that one too. But so is that odd-numbered night there at the end and many mosques will have all-night prayer services every night of that week so that I got the best shot at being there for Layla Otto Cotter to get the most benefit for your prayers. That's what's weird is that depending on what day doing certain things can make your prayers have more worth in God's sight and see from our perspective that really removes the personal relationship aspect right what prayer is actually right about that. Hey Eddie, thanks for the questions. Much appreciated. 866-34-TRUTH I recognize the voice of one of our students from fire school of ministry we had some of her grad served as missionaries in Morocco and they told us that in the night of power that they would be all-night prayer and that people would actually have demonic encounters they they were in the mosque actually wanted to receive some type of spiritual power and he said some very odd things happen is that is at a tradition you're aware of where their trade actually receive some type of power.

There is definitely a desire mess the whole reason is you have these promises of these spiritual localities. The nice way to put his spiritual blessings but yeah power is one of those things. And if you're a person who is simply looking at religion as a means of gaining power over other people, you open yourself up to some pretty some pretty serious, dangerous things that I've not heard those particular stories, but I'm not been in in a lot of countries where Islam is for a long period of time where Islam is just sort of almost culturally.

The predominant perspective right let this a couple minutes on Islam and then I want talk about misconceptions and things you've learned with some of the different apologetics debates things you've done common misconceptions that Christians may have about other religions or cults, but would you agree with this statement that radical Islam that we see represented by the terrorist organizations, and that we see when a woman is beaten to death in Pakistan for allegedly disarming Mohammed or Sabrina cannot bring the Cron or or slandering or off it writes horrible you posted that horrific video on on Twitter from earlier this action from last year. Okay so that that the murderous angry anode death to America, kind of is Islam and there there quoting Karana you read the Isys literature and it's it's rich in theological quotations from as long that radical Islam represents a genuine stream of Islam, meaning they they have historical roots of their violent conquests and they have theological basis and in the Cron life of Mohammed that that's a valid strain of Islam, but is only one strain of Islam.

Would you say it's the only strain of Islam. It's not even valid.

How how would you see it know it might my statement on this has been consistent for many many years, which is what surprises me about that.

The heat of been taking the problem in looking for any way for Islam itself to solve this issue and to deal with with Isys.

The deal Pogo from Al Qaeda or whatever else might be is that the source documents the cut on the soon of the prophet the hadith. These sets large sets of documents are not sufficiently coherent and consistent for any one side to be able to vanquish in meaningful scholarly dialogue.

The other side. In other words, when you look at the hadith you choose your scholars you got the humbly school at the mall is going to ulcerative Gnostic seven different schools you choose your scholars. They put their certain hadith in a certain order, that becomes the lens through which you read everything else that becomes the lens which she read the cut on the other people do theirs and unlike you and I where you know you and I've debated and we believe we can go the text and you believe you have the better contextual argument, I believe I have the better contextual argument, but we can go to the tax and we can make those contextual arguments. There isn't a sufficient context to go to to be able to do that with the codon and the hadith literature is so self-contradictory.

I mean I've played many times that one I think was a Nigerian or Ethiopian imam who is just giddy that he had found this one hadith where he felt that this meant you could you could kill innocent people in jihad and I remembered listening of listen to all of us. I have a car and saw him was on their huge volumes of collections of any and I remember hearing that hadith, but the preceding two hadith before it had had directly quoted Mohammed saying you are not to kill women and children in jihad. He does pick which one he wanted right there is no way to control that and that's really where the problem in God so you can say that they have that basis, but it's inconsistent got very clear and that's how I understand it, as well, 866342 of right that number and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

You may be how it is my guess that you, James White has enlisted the ancient Islamic tradition that is it that he actually has uncovered audio resources from the immediate generations after Mohammed no is that Dr. White is a marathon cyclist and rower and he does a lot of his study while listening to mature as to whatever materials he can then get in writing that he can convert to digital form so you're used to the digital voice like I am very used to gotten better and you probably listen to my stuff. It sped up right to do.

Yeah line of fire will come on right after the briefing in my in my list. Okay Hannah, but I listen to it at 20 speed so it's amazing how everyone sounds so much more intelligent when they talk so fast. This is a also a note pass up my mispronunciations of words in length things and I one less thing about Islam.

I said that before the break, but right okay in the in the Talmud. There is vast discussion about a wide range of issues, but it's totally non-systematic.

It's completely tangential once and can lead to another, you can be starting the tomato volume on Sabbath and their dietary law discussions there other things and then this rabbi says this is rubbish. Is this this is this this is this and it ends there.

You don't know what you're supposed in the remember these are more minor points of law. These should be like the tips of the branches as opposed to the branches or the trunk but what happened then a subsequent to that Moses Maimonides in the 12 century rights a code of law for the Mishnah tour where he just says okay here's the ruling his people and know what you're supposed to do and Judy is like Islam is law based. You know, God has requirements wants to live certain ways. Even the minor details of life and then that was followed up by another set of volume. Some years later, Colby shoe, roof the prepared table and that that was in the 16th century, and both of those are authoritative in different ways, but the traditions you can go there is a here's were supposed to do there some theological discussion, but theology is not as important as interpretation of law and application of Scripture law and tradition, but Islam does not answer.

Those are authoritative sources, even though there 12 century 16th-century authoritative is Judaism believes that Judaism is a living religion just like Christians would say we have the New Testament Holy Spirit Jews would say we have our ongoing traditions that are also inspired and as each new generation comes the rabbinic leaders provide wisdom and you keep building on the previous generations but but Islam with all of its jurisprudence and legal rulings doesn't have that theologically it doesn't have that consistently because you have so much division. Remember, your you're talking about why dispersion and then you're talking about different schools of jurisprudence of so for example one thing that really concerns me is as I hear so many people amongst in the Christian community going. We need laws against Sania. We can have Sania well what is study I've I've hardly ever met a Christian who had a clue what study was we see study a law in its most brutal aspects in places like Iraq or Pakistan or some like that but obviously when we talk to Christians about what is God's law, different answers the water in almost any evangelical church and say what is God's law and you and I have to its all-time regards on the sexual issue. The Mosaic code Leviticus all the second stuff. There's also two different perspectives. I listen to the debate you did that Sabbath know on on law and oh with Gary DeMar.

All right okay so and and and all sorts of issues regarding law and understanding of Israel.

All this time so you get.

There's lots of different even restricted to all of the 10 Commandments apply exactly things that have a commemorative fly.

So we have also stem perspectives and yet for some reason we find it strange that Muslims have all sorts of different understandings, applications of sharia as well. Right because there's all sorts of definitions of it and so what you do get our commentaries on commentaries on commentaries what's important to recognize is the current movement that is giving rise to groups like Isys will hobbies him. They went back to a man by name given to Mia and Evan to me up basically was a reformer who basically said all these traditions and all these legal rulings that have built up over the years they've taken us away from the real Islam wipe all that out and go back to the solace that is that the first generations Mohammed and those first followers.

And so it was get. They got rid of all of that foundational stuff, but now your you get to reinterpret all that within your own context and that's why these groups end up turning on each other, coming up stuff is never been believed in Islam before because it's been a radical removal of what had accrued over time, but the sources are going to are not consistent enough to actually give them a solid foundation. That's the problem it and a big problem I have not a Muslim scholar or not it anywhere in the universe that has but you have had a few years of Arabic and then some study over the years studied with Muslims and sulci keep trying to sharpen that deep and that so I can do a better job but you you spent a lot more time studying Islam that I have your non-Islamic scholar don't we know what that means but let's just say your knowledge of Islam compared to the person criticizing on Facebook is probably a thousand to one terms what you know and get their telling you that you're wrong about this and that and maybe my knowledge to them is is 50 or hundred to one or something and there their telling me the same thing.

That's the frustration it's not that would try to go soft onto the other can you know I keep posting these things against radical Islam and sometimes you come up with a modified common. We have one sharia law that someone made for us and I said check it out see if it's true, because I knew there'd be controversy and in you added in comments we hear about it being applied attends to be applied in a more harsh form to an end yet there is diversity hate root were in the thick of the political race now and I'll get to give you an opportunity dresses me to be prevent because you don't get involved in politics on your shows. Much as I do I'll get to give the opportunity to respond to Donald Trump talking to Jake Tapper about having a great relationship with God. He said I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness and I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that's bad that a very different life than probably a lot of people think of a very great relationship with God.

Ever. Very great relationship with Evans health comes with all respect to Donald Trump for whom we pray, but what jumps out at you statement you have an opportunity to make a theological political commentary yeah jumps out to me is the same that jumps out to you and that is that any person who is ever truly experience the convicting power the Holy Spirit in regards to our sin does not speak in that fashion.

And I am reminded of the fact that when Paul before he ever gets to the definition of the good news in Romans chapter 3 finishes that with that Katina passages primarily from the Psalter and what's his purpose.

The picture I've always found to be an awesome picture. The richer he paints is so that all the world may be guilty before God, and every mouth closed it and that's a mouth that is still speaking of self-righteousness that said that if that's a person who is not yet ready to hear the gospel of grace is because the mouth is still going on. Not as bad as somebody else. I've got goodness by Bubba Bubba and when you really understand your own sin and it's brought to you by the that convictions brought by the spirit of God you never speak like that again. Yeah, I remember being in a meeting in Korea right preach on God being a refiner's fire and it was a small meeting that particular one in a room. Maybe squeeze 100 people in a stream over the pile of shoes on the way. Mnemonic twice as big as a vice is nice and fine line at the end of the meeting. I knew there was intense conviction and some people need to confess me one man this is Asia publicly confess to adultery was so undone. He said you think I'm a good man but I'm not will before him woman started to confess as to why I have some things to say but let me tell you, you haven't treated me right. So I succeeded out to them because the moment you convicted, you stop accusing anyone else you choose yourself. It will be back with your questions and then decided to break 866342 it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 664 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown Dennis Radcliffe number one want you to hear something that is familiar and most all of your years as we honor Dr. Martin Luther King day today. Let's remember his famous speech.

I have a dream. By the way, Dr. King had his critics then and now we understand he was far from perfect man. We understand their strong differences we have in theology, but his moral courage is indisputable and what he stood for his highly admirable in his appeal to the prophets of Israel. His call for justice is something that we all resonate with let's listen to his words again, I will all bring one day in which wonderful is how much progress is made from 1963 to today which which saddens the steps backward and the painful conditions that still existed have to be addressed. Let's turn this theologically am sitting with my good friend and fellow debater fellow apologist Dr. James White.

He's been in the greater Charlotte, area teaching, reformed theological seminary and doing a seminar for us tonight.

Fire church that's right near Charlotte motor Speedway 7 PM when every Christian needs to know about Islam's only 330 in the afternoon East Coast plenty of time if you get out there come at seven, this many people as you want to be Q&A at the end, the lectures free will receive an offering to to help Dr. White's work and ministry to get around the world and duties doing but James, let's let's focus on unity in the church before we take some calls.

You are probably a stickler for Dr. like receiving more than me and were both sticklers for the word I I care deeply about doctrinal orthodoxy. You probably put even more of a focus on just our respective callings and our backgrounds into callings and backgrounds, etc. refrigerated a comment on text we want to be as accurate every line of Scripture, every word is as we possibly can. A minute and 1/2 water keys to deepening our unity without compromising doctrinal truth. We have to define what what actually makes the faith, the faith, and I have lamented the fact for a long long time. For example, that much of American Christianity is fairly monotheistic. And it's hardly even Trinitarian, so if if we have a church where we are focused primarily upon ourselves. We don't really know the God that were worshiping. This is this is not to give us a sufficient grounds for having true unity.

So first there has to be an understanding that God has spoken there needs to be the highest view of Scripture let's you and I both know that in many seminaries across the land. Having a high view of Scripture is is sadly extremely rare and so especially comes like Old Testament commentaries and things that are written today is like we wrote that off long time ago. So you have to have believe that God has spoken believe that we have a sure word from him that believe that he has revealed himself to us so that we might know him. And then of course you have the issues the gospel in one of my one of my greatest concerns is that I see a lot of people today in the church are working on a least common denominator Christianity where you've boiled it all down to Tucson to something that basically gets rid of the gospel as being definitional. That is very, very, much a concern for me is who God is, the fact he spoke with clarity the gospel.

That's the only brown we have for you and them better we know God. And though we believe more easily. True unity will come will be right back with you because 866-34-TRUTH file. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I can assure you play is more exciting than Brown and wife this this Dr. White's sweater alone to Koji Kikuchi with the Koji with the cootie well.

This used to be really interesting, but remember Bill Cosby before Bill Cosby's fall. Remember the wildly bright sweaters. He would wear on the Cosby show back in the 1980s and watch a lot of debris there were Koji soon� This is an Australian work of art. While I just have been more separated from the world.

I Michael Brown sitting here with James White. Dr. White's website a rich resource a OMI and dot org a OMI and.org is an Alpha and Omega ministries to the phones Travis in Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome to the line of fire on the greater Creek.

Michael sure thing. Maybe Dr. White's perspective on the history of the collecting and anger earned. Dr. Gray might would have a better year and director mean great history of Zionist movement back in the late 1800s with Kirkland about pork or in regard to the fact that they were even looking further boilerplate put the Jewish people after the horse.

In Russia on the Internet and the Holocaust eunuch Hector Cartwright crystal work of the other countries. Ugandan is looking another place to put the Jewish people, but they couldn't and the UN went back on the word with helping people he didn't give them the land of the intended to take that and it Jewish people could battle court and they were so angry even caught in Christian if they were they were taking land that they really felt that along to them have fostered up white tremendous amount of anger, looking at people in raw yet just jumping first before Dr. Dr. White just let me let me first point out that there is historic anti-Semitism in a lot of Islamic theology and other with hatred towards Jews or demeaning of the Jews occurred long before there was a conflict over the land.

That's one thing. The other thing for Judaism. Jerusalem has been the only capital forever in the mind of Judaism and returning to the land assessment religious Jews pray for on a daily basis around the world, not to Texas, not Uganda.

Not not anywhere else. Every year that the saying is next year in Jerusalem, Jerusalem is the place to which Jewish people pray three times a day around the world that has been the only place for which there been aspirations of a homeland and the only place it was ever realistic and when an option was given to the Arab world, with plenty of room in the land for Jews and Arabs long before the partition plan in 1940 and 47, going back to the 1930s there ready into father's taking place against the Jewish people led by Hutch amino Husseini was a radical Islamic cleric and a close confidant of Adolf Hitler.

Netanyahu was even suggested that he was the one that gave the idea of extermination of the Jews to Hitler and there are some scholars who actually believe that in any case, there are Muslims today who still say Hitler didn't finish the job we want to finish the job, but the Arabs were were offered a very generous plan where they would have the majority of the land and Jews would have a small piece of the land they rejected it and then the partition plan of 1947. Here's the arrangement, juicier Arabs here.

The Arab leadership rejected that and said we will drive the Jews out and once we drive them out. You go back to your homes. A Lamborghini drive them into the sea. And that's what ultimately cause the displacement, the Jewish leadership reluctantly said yes okay that's fine. There's enough room for everyone in the Jewish leadership said your friends, your neighbors, read the statements of Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, and 47, 48, let's live together in peace side-by-side so the narrative. The way it's being presented. It is in my view told exaggerated one, but I want to jump in FirstEnergy questions for Dr. White in one respect that. But the same about another homeland Texas Uganda.

Let's just need to set that record straight. Even though Theodore Hartsell he reads.

He suggested maybe you can view God December. That's was always universally rejected by Jewish leaders. Write your thoughts on what this is. This is certainly your area not mind I will only comment that it does seem to me that the Arabic Arab nations today if they wanted to solve this problem and if they wanted to turn the Palestinian lands into a a land flowing with milk and honey they could do so, it seems to me that they don't want that to happen that they want this to remain a constant source of irritation and an ability to to create hatred toward Israel, and as Michael said, my biggest concern is I look back at the original sources of Islam and I am very very concerned because of what happened under Mohammed, after a major battle. You have the destruction of a particular Jewish tribe, or you have hundreds, 6 to 900 men beheaded Mohammed takes part in these these executions. There are statements in the hadith, and again, the problem is, how do you interpret them who who can authoritatively interpret them that are unfortunately repeated day in and day out on pie Palestinian television within one particular interpretation which allows people to think that you can stab Jews and you're doing something right to do so. There is a almost I think it's a mood to water hadith which means a universally accepted hadith that when Jesus returns that the two things that he's going to destroy are the cross and the pig and the cross being the idea that Christians worship the cross, which is a life I suppose I can understand how some people think that look like some random expressions but then much of the interpretation of the pig has been applied to Jewish people rather than anything in regards to dietary laws and things like that so this is where the problem that we are talking about before comes up is that the radicals will take these sources and because they are not themselves consistent with in the context of when they were given they can be used almost anyway and abused in almost anyway, that's the problem just a few years ago the grand mufti of Jerusalem, the Palestinian Authority grand mufti at a televised address on Palestinian TV court of the famous hadith that the end will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and kill them and that the famous tradition that Jews will try to hide behind a tree and the tree was a all Muslim the gentry behind the us kill him. Let me also point out that Arab League resolution for a 1547. I always say 1457 it's 1547 resolution 1547, which was passed in 1959 called on Arab nations not to repatriate that the Palestinians, they said they must retain their Palestinian nationality. You can go to countries like Lebanon and Syria and find Palestinian refugee camps there because they will not allow the Palestinians to live as full citizens whose fault is it evil Israel.

So what happened to the 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands in 1948 with the birth of the modern state of Israel where they go.

They were absorbed by large by fledgling new nation called Israel what happened to the 600 or so thousand Palestinians who were displaced just called Arabs than who were displaced because of the war, they remain refugees because the surrounding nations would not take the man with a strategy to make Israel look bad so yeah the anger is there and the feeling is evil Jews, evil Israelis and yes there are injustices that they suffer, which further fueled the fire that the real problem is the surrounding nations not taking in their their fellow refugees that would've solve the problem and that the easier solution would have been a two state solution in the 30s or the 40s. Both of those were rejected.

Travis, I suggest you go to my website excuse to go to go to YouTube and type in my name and then is Israel an evil occupier. I think you'll find that lecture very eye-opening lease. More these things out. I'm not denying the anger is there not denying that the Palestinians often suffer injustice.

I'm saying it's primarily the fault of the Arab leadership also a fabulous book on this effort.

I am Karsh. The book is called Palestine betrayed hate.

Thank you Travis very much for the call 866-34-TRUTH are Josephine stay right there want to get your question on the other side of the break I just saw this posted on my Facebook page. James it's a debate that you did with the Muslim who challenged Jesus prediction that not one stone would be left on another because the Wailing Wall is still standing on the few did have a chance to address the answering someone to address the questions pretty simply answered. But how do you respond when they see what Jesus wasn't a true prophet.

I'm a very confusing debate with someone else's but if someone says that you Jesus wasn't a true prophet as he said not one still be left on another and Luke says the whole city, not once, on the left and right women was still standing.

How do we well thought out. Obviously it it's it's interpreting words in their proper context and allowing for apocalyptic literature and apocalyptic language to to mean something that's obviously referring to complete destruction, which is exactly what Jerusalem and experience to take it in the in the absurd literalistic sense a sort of service similar to what some people do with John six, and G is a statement about his body or missing. For example, you could not read the minor prophets and try to hold them to that level etc. liberal literalism because are talking about the moon turning to blood and stars falling out of the sky, landing on the earth all sorts of things like that. It's missing the kind of of love literature that is actually being addressed yet and when my colleague Steve.

All faculty member here. Could you imagine after the Romans raised Jerusalem and its devastating it is. Having then 100 raise these things right to the ground and and you go at the whole city is devastated to temples burned out. It's the unspeakable is having the whole city is in ruins. Music is a false prophet because it is a stone standing over there to things all right right back takes more calls a few more comments from my still get stuck.

James White will do it again tomorrow. Good gets even better by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey, just a quick reminder have not yet registered for a night to ignite our first ever Charlotte based mission to rally our first ever vision banquet. The Bennett brothers will be speaking I'll be speaking you'll leave inspired and blessed. We've got a great free meal for you and working to give you an opportunity to partner with us in some tremendous great opportunities we have in 2016 that we could we really believe will have a national impact can give the opportunity to partner with us. We have only a few seats left. So if you plan to come go tonight to ignite.com it's January 28 night to ignite.calm go there and RSVP ASAP. There we go RSVP ASAP James white, my guest and I were talking about putting the wrong citation down for Scripture. I signed up.

We had a couple bought our house. We moved out of the house and we were in in a rental where we are now and they came after lecture I did at their home church they happen to go there so will live in the same area and I went to sign books for them. They said I saw my thought okay you bought our house and I thought it's the King family and I signed it and then I realized it's not the King family is a name close to that. So after I cited games and they were very polite, they smile that it's a word.

So I then subsequently sent new books because I knew the address as well have signed to the right name and I saw the grocery store that elicited did you get that we fixed it but tragically, a friend of a friend of mine who is new to social media. Some years ago and you the email thought that LOL stood for lots of love and he sent a note to a grieving friend who just lost his wife, praying for you LOL think you meant lots of love. So let's be sure we get things right to carry those acronyms acronyms that I've mispronounced names.

I mispronounce Pulitzer private do that all the time. Pulitzer Prize the other day what critique taking some 5000 pilots discover the phones in Riverdale, Utah. Josephine, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you Dr. Brown I appreciate you taking the question that I learned so much from you greatly appreciate that. Apparently we have you to bring that information to my question is it to both of you. I understand that the end time prophecy we can see the fulfillment of the nation of Israel and where those prophecies are being scaled and couldn't come in the church.

But my question is where can we intervene out definitely see oral or written lease kind of fee where Islam is fulfilling and time prophecy is Islam where we can actually relate and see that in the unit with the prophet in the end time where they are in an and again I know that that's a very valid question. On the one hand, the prophets were speaking to events in their Dan and prophesy of key future things but Islam being as big as it is almost 1/4 of the of the world today of professing is Islam. Is there any prophecy in your mind James in the Bible that directly or indirectly speaks of Islam is a false religion or deception well is two things always keep in mind is when when the subject comes up. There are actually multiple eschatological perspectives that are expressed by people and you and I would have an interesting conversation even on an eschatological issues. Yeah, because we take a different perspective.

There I don't think Islam specifically but I do think that there is there is much that is said about the church's struggles in regards to not only to the forms of opposition that the church will face and I think when you look at the fact that Islam actually professes to believe in Jesus Christ. To believe that he was the Messiah. And I've had many Muslims say that where the second largest religion in the world. It teaches people love Jesus.

That's going to put that within the context of false teaching that's gonna put that within the context of a of a of a of of faults. Following of of Jesus which would I think be different than dealing with. For example, secularism. I wish assembly completed discounts the existence of supernatural or anything like that but I would only see that as as as as a fulfillment, not so much prophecy looking into a future saying this can happen, future, as the messages are given to the church as to what the church to be facing the kinds of deception the kinds of challenges the first church will always be facing in every age. Of course if you look at Revelation 20. However, you interpreted the resurrection of those who been beheaded for their faith. While near also beheaded people. In other words, it is not depressed right Islam is doing it later. This is something tragically. It's been done through the centuries. Of course I would say Josephine that Jesus warning about false prophets rising up that that's that's part of it.

Some try our lives in a state where that's also relevant. Rather, it is exactly exactly other other false prophets Joseph Smith being being one of them so that is certainly happen through history. Let's also recognize that there are passages in Daniel with some of my friends and colleagues try to say dewpoint to events today and and do speak of Islam in certain ways. They may have had an earlier reference an hour later reference. I just haven't examined it sufficiently to to say whether I agree or disagree.

The other thing we don't know is at the time when Jesus actually returns to set up his kingdom on the earth� Say that the end of this age.

What percentage of Muslims that will become a will that continue to grow really be something else that takes its place, but I think if we look at the larger issues it warns against false teaching at once against false prophets. It does speak of the hardship and opposition leader, we'd face then practically speaking, it deals with Islam.

But it's it's a great question and one that I think merits further consideration without trying to find like I remember as a new believer, I was told you know that Ecclesiastes prophesied airplanes because what you say in secret.

Basically, a little bird is going to go tell somebody, so that yeah and and then nail them prophesied cars near the chariots going through the other like you know if you read the description. It's almost like they're going like cars through the streets and thought wow wow that yeah the stubs and I remember some revelation about that was turned in helicopters right right as far as the plagues yeah okay right so without reading the Bible like that or any of these things mentioned or was there a parallel between this ancient power and another one in the future, perhaps, but direct prophecies of Islam in a negative way. Not that I'm aware of, and in most certainly not direct prophecies of Mohammed hostage in John 14. Song of Solomon writes it just be clear on that. When we answer. Does the Bible speak of Islam we mean negatively is a false religion or the speak.

Mohammed is a false prophet, not that I that we know of directly, but indirectly in terms of the one just doesn't prophesy positively of Mohammed for the note. Of course, categorically, categorically, and out of it yet. So friends I get in there today with Dr. White.

So if you are unable to call in today give us a call tomorrow 866-34-TRUTH and then visit Dr. White's website. Check out his podcast is Internet broadcast his radio show, which is followed by so many around the world. Go to a OMI and.org AO MI and.org and friends to be a blessing to so many of you help us regulate your gift of any size. This week we mean that you were never able to do the gift of any size I want to send was a thank you gift a CD with five of the best messages of ever preached you be blessed and stirred to be helping us.

My bottom line today as we use the word it answers every area.

Every question addresses that use it rightly