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Jewish New Testament scholar who writes about Jesus.
What can she tell us start for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown to think of it, think of being a trained scholar being a scholar of New Testament being a scholar of the life of Jesus in Jewish background to Jesus and being Jewish and not believing that Jesus is the Messiah, but respecting the New Testament writings quite an interesting mix for sure. My guess Prof. Amy Jill Levine will be joining us halfway through this first hour I will be debating her. She's not coming on the air to debate me, but I want to get her perspective as a Jewish scholar who respects and appreciates the New Testament, but who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, to hear her perspective and things that she thinks the church might be missing this is Michael Brown. Welcome to the modifier 866-34-TRUTH 87884. Yesterday I talked about some lessons we can learn from the fall of the governor of Alabama Robert Bentley, the sex scandal surrounding him 50 years of marriage. Decades of public service. A strong Christian witness terribly, terribly damaged, destroyed by his actions.
My intent yesterday and now is not to throw stones or attack, but rather to say let us learn let us wake up together. Let us learn and examine our own lives. So I have an article you can read it by going to the line of fire.org or it's up at stream stream.org was the fallen governor of Alabama can teach us also as a yesterday we were hearing that Secretary of State Tilson would not be meeting with Russian leader Vladimir Putin now the word is that they are meeting the president Trumper said we are not going into Syria so we bomb them, but we are not going in there with our troops right now. I just encourage you to pray for God's will in the Middle East to pray for God's best to pray for God's plan. This is complex.
This is difficult. There are so many issues to balance out a short-term solution is not what we need what we need is a long term solution we need is long-term wisdom and it's hard to come by. You've got to think about Israel and how this affects Israel. You got to think of course how this affects the people of Syria as a whole. Different factions within Syria and are there any good guys versus bad guys is that all bad guys and really bad guys has us affect the Christian population in Syria.
What about the larger stability of the Middle East as a whole. What about the empty implications and repercussions for the rest of the world. So yeah I am glad that I'm not the president of the United States and you should be glad you're not either or. One of the top security people are defense people having to make these decisions.
These are weighty. These are difficult. We stay out entirely as we see atrocities taken place that we get involved if we get involved. For how long. At what cost. So honestly, candidly, I think there more questions than answers.
But what we need is people talking together when you've got America and Russia with potential hostility.
This is a good time to say all right. May there be wisdom make cooler heads prevail. May truth triumph. Everybody has their own agenda and that their own own long-term goals. Let's pray God your kingdom come to Syria in the Middle East as we pray for Israel and salvation of the Jewish people during this Passover season.
We also pray for the persecuted church and we pray for the Muslims who do not know the Lord. Nancy asked me a question yesterday we were driving together. She said you know there's an airport bombing. We hear about day and day and night hear about it on TV, airport, bombing Brussels something like that. But when there's a bombing of churches, we hardly hear anything about why the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Let's talk when I came to faith. We heard some about this.
This this was an issue that I read torture for Christ by Richard were brought on the net really open up my world to the persecuted church and I read a lot about it, especially in the old. Let's just see him try to place this now early 80s I would say Esther to read more about the suffering church that is a started to travel internationally more. Beginning in the mid to late 80s 86. My first trip to Israel.
87 first trip to Europe to minister just working with missionaries more and then with people friends in other parts the world. This became something that's been important to me. Now we have so many of our grads serving in difficult parts of the world serving in the Middle East. Some places we we Mentioned where they are because of of sensitivity because of potential danger, exposing larger work of one of our spiritual sons was martyred by Islamic extremists. We can give you details on that.
You several years back I think five years back we just past five years and we still can't announce things publicly in terms of the details of that, but this is been something that has been on my heart. Over the years.
Needless to say I don't think it's been on my heart nearly enough. I don't think my consciousness of the suffering of our brothers and sisters around the world is deep enough is constant enough. I had read a quote I can confirm the accuracy of it, but from a Christian leader years ago, himself persecuted believer and he said in the early church. There is a tradition that you you never had a service where you did make some mention of the martyrs that about what point in history that came forth and again I can't verify.
Maybe you're listening and you yeah I know that quote I can find it please do it and let us know or give me a call 866-34-TRUTH 87884 but but think of it like this. All right, let's let's start with real intimate family. Okay, your son wall serving in Afghanistan is captured, he becomes a prisoner of war and is being held in violation of whatever the Geneva principles, or would ever whatever the enemy combatants supposed to do. They're not doing so your son is is trapped behind enemy lines and you don't know what he suffering what he's going through what torture he's enduring what what type of of horrific treatment is expressed. You don't know right and let's say also. He's married, so your daughter-in-law's now without her husband.
Let's say he's a young father got a two-year-old son and and they've been out of contact now for eight months.
There's a day that would go by where you wouldn't be thinking about your son and praying and spent trying to work with the government or something behind the scenes to find out how is doing and secure his release to think. If you are his wife the day would go by, we wouldn't be thinking about him or praying or or having a certain kind of pain. Obviously, because it's immediate family. All right, so I don't have that relationship to the Christians who were killed by Islamic terrorists in Egypt this past Sunday Palm Sunday celebrated in Coptic church, I do.
I don't have that relationship with. I don't know them personally. I have a Facebook friend who's a Coptic Christian, but I don't know him at all. Beyond that, we've exchanged messages here and there on Facebook so II don't know any of the people person. I don't know the families of the victims. I don't know the families of those right now who have loved ones that have just been buried.
Rev love once run hospitals. I don't know the people better. Right now it may be burned severely or terribly cut up of lost a limb or fighting flight. I don't know them all right.
However, they are my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
However, they are, and that since the least of these my brethren, that Jesus would speak about who are suffering terrible mistreatment and who are not denying their faith who are continuing to profess faith in Jesus and I want to bring to your attention.
Hebrews chapter 13. It's a verse that I think we have misused.
Hebrews 13 verse three remember those who are in prison as though in prison with them and those who are mistreated since you are also in the body. Since you also are in the body.
Now understand this. We've often applied this member those in prison as though in prison with them to say okay we need to reach out to prisoners to convicts to criminals who've been incarcerated by all means we should by all means we should reach out to them. I have friends who for many years have been involved in prison ministry, some even been chaplains. They see amazing fruit and there's probably more openness to the gospel in a prison. Then, on Wall Street, probably more openness to the gospel in prison than in the richest neighborhood in your community, but a more openness to the gospel in prison. Then in many seminaries.
I mean level seminaries are considered what I'm saying is that many people in prison are desperate. They know their sin. They know they blown it.
Many of them raised in the gospel then turned away their needy. They have nowhere to go.
They they receive genuine love for those reaching out to them for the first time they have a message that can change their laws and deliver them from guilt that even while they're in prison and can give them hope and something to live for. Great. By all means do prison ministry.
Yes yes yes yes however that's not the emphasis of Hebrews here it's talking about fellow believers. Remember those who are in prison as though in prison with them. What was your he's not saying Hebrews is not saying to me. Remember those on on death row about to be executed as if you're on death row with them. There may be some serial killer and rapist is about to be executed and he was is not saying hey remember that person as if it was you as if you were the one about to be executed. That's not the point. There is some up brothers and sisters in prison. Those are in prison for the faith. Remember them as though you were in prison okay and and and those who are mistreated since you also are in the body does it mean in the body of Christ or in the body, you also are in the physical body and you know what it is to be mistreated would be the more natural reading not to look at this when you get to the end of the letter look at this. Hebrews chapter 13 verse 23, you should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I shall see you if you come soon it Timothy just got out of prison. Hey, you should know that Timothy Y was Timothy in prison without Paul was on personal time while Perley Timothy to this was so that happened with with with commonness with common this is that such a work. This is something that happened frequently to the early leaders. They were persecuted for their faith. This is something that happens frequently, leaders of the countries.
To this day when my friends was working with Vietnamese leaders and he was saying before you could be ordained to be a pastor with the group that he was working with you. It had to planted X number of churches and was dozens and dozens of churches, and then raised up X number of other leaders and and and then been in prison for certain amount of time before he could be ordained officially as a pastor is like a serious but that was life for them.
The persecuted church so all I'm saying is whatever we can do to stir our hearts praying at least monthly if not weekly for the persecuted church may with. Wouldn't that be a positive thing with the be a positive thing. If in our church services every week in the midst of whatever were doing that we prayed for the persecuted church worldwide with it makes sense in light of the suffering of her brothers and sisters. Wouldn't that remind us of the cost of following Jesus with.
Wouldn't that speak to us in terms of our own witness and wouldn't make a difference to God who works through our prayers. I posted something on Facebook couple days back after the church bombing assault on the website that I had had actual video footage from inside the church building shortly after the bombing and you can hear people moaning.
You can see the blood, you can see the wooden pews is ripped apart and I said this is painful to watch, but we must watch and some of it posted on one of my Facebook pages, but oh well. We shouldn't really be should really be watching this kind of stuff and it's all know we should we look at which almost force ourselves to look at when he said this, her brothers and sisters. That's because of Jesus. This is what Islamic militants have done because of Jesus. This is their way of fighting the so-called infidels.
It is bloodied, it is horrific. It is ugly. It's reality and it affects our brothers and sisters are not laid a guilt trip on you. I'm encouraging to say, God give me your heart for the rest of the bike in your heart. Father, the suffering church helmet have a greater sense of identification that I can view greater blessing brothers and sisters are suffering right back here on the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown radio right now for can't watch the press conference sure the be interesting things to wait and on afterwards, 8663 freight 784 got a few minutes before bring my special guest Prof. Amy Jill Levine so that switch subjects and talk for a moment about progressivism, liberalism, all is so open. All is so tolerant all it is.
It is so diverse and inclusive and and and absolutely this you have your view. I have my view. Let's all express our views openly. Let's not.
Let's not stigmatize anyone. Let's not censor anyone. Let's not put anyone in a corner no-no SMO open exchange of ideas. You have your viewpoint of my phenomenon the South. Progressivism does it all.
It's says to some your views are out of date.
Your views are out of touch your views. We brand in tolerant and therefore we will not allow you to have an open exchange of ideas, let me ask you something. If there was a fairly conservative campus in America. A university campus that was more conservative. I know the vast majority are quite liberal but let's just say you have one with the students riding. If you have a leftist speaker coming with the students protesting in an even getting violent if if a speaker came in that had a strongly leftist viewpoint, or let's take something like this.
Let's take a campus like Liberty University's truly one of the more conservative campuses in America as a strongly Christian-based school and unashamedly unabashedly Christian.
So Bernie Sanders spoke their yeah presidential candidate Bernie Sanders is as liberal as they get right at an outright socialist and some said it was not appropriate for him to speak it but there were no protest riots. They didn't have to have all types of special security. Aside from whatever he would require just because of his position right and in that's what you do and then you differ you have debates but you have said Charles Murray, a conservative intellectual speak at a campus you have Heather McDonald conservative intellectual speaking on campus. You have been Shapiro conservative intellectual speak on campus. You have even the more controversial Malian office. You have riots on the campuses you have their speech being shut down you and look I I can even get invited to many campuses because there is no one is willing to debate me normal and it even hosts the invitation gobbling that will change but that's just been a reality.
So I bring that up.
This is not new news. This is ongoing by the day, but I bring it up because a friend sent me this email today report on Fox news Swedish midwife loses fight to be exempt from performing abortions near the correct Swedish midwife on Wednesday lost three years long legal battle to be exempt from performing abortions and actually says violates religious freedom is not considering a final push before the European Court of human rights midwife Eleanor Grimm marked objects to abortions because were Christian beliefs and noticed she's a midwife what she's doing is a midwife is helping women give birth manipulate is listening to me. You gave birth. With the help of midwife both of our babies were born at home when they were babies there.
That was four years old, but both of our daughters were born at home that she wanted to have home births and this is in the day when it was harder to do and and and less less common, but we had midwives for both of our births and that's what they're all about helping women give birth. That's what midwives do they help the mom through labor. They help in different aspects of delivery and then you have medical backup in a doctor hospital in the event that there is something beyond what they can do is as midwives, but that's what they're there to do to help bring babies in the world they live for. They love it and are gifted. They help the mom's. They hear that their amazing that's what babies, babies and moms.
That's what midwives look for right so obviously abort.
Why would you have anything do with an abortion if you're midwife midwife Eleanor Grimm marked objects to abortions because were Christian beliefs, but the Swedish labor court decided that midwives are obligated to make a choice between conscience and career contradicting international law which protects conscientious objection experts.
It thou shalt not object thou shalt not have a difference. Thou shalt perform abortions. And the subject according to the organization.
Scandinavian human rights lawyers freedom of conscience is human right sin that no one shall be up deprived of their ability to work in the profession because that person by ethical, moral, religious reasons cannot perform a test" extinguishes human life at its beginning, final stages restrictions on the right to freedom of conscience must be supported by law and be necessary in a democratic society, Scandinavian rights lawyers that if the appeals court decision and remarks case the river 2015. The District Court found a good march right to freedom of conscience had not been violated, and yet the right about this video about it and required to pay the local governments, legal costs, which totaled more than $100,000 remark is been commuting to Norway would need lawyers and doctors are granted freedom of conscience, according to human rights group quote the court's failed to protect the art remarks fundamental right to freedom of conscience. Despite the clear legal protections that exist in international law, Robert Clark, director of human European advocacy for a different international organization that advocates for the right of people with food about their face and statement. Some have attempted to frame this case is one that pits one human right against another.
However, the only person's rights have been violated is Eleanor Remarque. According to ADF three different medical clinics in the district of Yunker being forgiven for a second and perfused employed remark because she would not assist with abortions due to her belief in the dignity of human life must now decide whether or not to pursue her case before the European Court of human rights pursuant please do pursue it. Mr. Mark many are standing with you and I'm confident that there will be sufficient legal support provided.
Please do pursue it. This expose the hypocrisy of this ruling. Let us expose the ugliness of this ruling.
This expose the lack of liberality lack of tolerance, lack of dignity in the Swedish labor court choose between conscience and career. That's the way it's being point deposited what absolute rubbish and look again is a midwife. What is her role is to bring babies into the world not to kill them in the womb.
God help Sweden. This is this is part of where liberal progressive Christianity gets you because Swedish with Swedes. We consider themselves Christian but hardly Christian reality comeback will be joined by Prof. agility stay right here it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speed and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown. So how is it New Testament scholar has an interest in Jesus as a Jewish person. I guess to me to Levine University professor New Testament Jewish studies. He rose and Leona B.
Carpenter Prof. of New Testament studies and professor of Jewish studies at Vanderbilt Divinity school and college of arts and sciences also affiliated Prof. Center for the study of Jewish Christian relationships.
Relations in Cambridge and of her books include the misunderstood Jew the church and the scandal of the Jewish Jesus. The meaning of the Bible with the Christian Jewish scriptures in the Christian Old Testament can teach us and a long list of other publications, perhaps of greatest interest of all is, she was a coeditor of the Jewish annotated New Testament sum has never been done, but Jewish scholars were not believing in Jesus with the sympathetic annotated scholarly treatment of New Testament does not attack it seeking to place it in its first century Jewish background. Prof. Rita thanks much for joining us on the line of fire today. Yes I'm just having as hard time hearing you right now you're out you're not on speakerphone area on your line. Alright, so what will have to figure out how to resolve that during our first break but I was your purpose yours is not to debate issues.
I'm simply fascinated as he was a Jewish academic having this decades long interest in Jesus and the New Testament. So how do you come to have this interest group in a predominantly Roman Catholic on caffeinated by my friend from the computer thing the road. On Christmas carols in the public school when we get on the boat we talk about what we did an education but they talk to me about what they learned in their catechism and I confronted him about what is going to be one thing thank you thank me and it got pumped when I was in second grade and a little girl for the mailman school but you kill the I simply cannot fathom how this tradition. The beautiful and moreover my appearance had told me the entity would like you to think on the plaintiff thing players. Most notably, we took authority from suddenly on me when I was seven and I can't while assassinating so the essence of early roots on so as you have studied over the years and now your life is intersecting in these these different cultures.
I'm I'm really intrigued to know how you look at Jesus.
What you make of all of this.
What you think the church may be missing about Jesus, but just just in short, may be it in the shortest possible way we can sum it up now. The mobile will get into it in the in the minutes that follow who you personally think Jesus was preparing drinking okay so do you think that he thought he was the Messiah description right on the meter. I figured it had a special commission to bring about. People thought.I will try cannot adjust what he believed in what they believe right back with Prof. Amy agility and skinny fascinating discussion her and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown just medic parables of a controversial Rabbi Dr. Levine. We know of in terms of Jewish background to the first century and some the work of David flues from the parables and things like that that will be look at Jesus as a Jewish teacher.
He certainly fits in those the that timeframe very well how the parables uses a common thing in your view.
In ancient Judaism and Jesus therefore would be a representative Rabbi yeah I think parables are form of wisdom literature and we got examples of parables from the Tanakh from the book of Judges 1st Samuel made him famous parable of the Lamb that he tells the King David unnumbered the proper Parabolic warming that they compare. One thing to another and rabbinic literature is replete with parables because the rabbis are not only good legalists are also very good storytellers.
I think he fits in well here.
He also fits in with the broader Roman and Greek context because Aesop's fables Have parabolic connection.
Right now you're reading this through the eyes of of the Jewish academic and not primarily through religious size. So when in that sense you may be come to the text with a lack of certain biases and preconceptions. What you think that the church is missing. Sometimes when it reads the parables of Jesus darling, we BUY it now. I know I just try to get a thumbs up to try to be objective. Never going to work only on what I tried doing the volume is not only imagine what Jesus parables might have found like the people who first heard them before the gospel writers get a hold of them and figure in what context are going to put them and how they might provide explanation for them. But I also looked at how over the centuries from the church fathers. A number of Christian interpreters, misunderstanding, Judaism, or simply dismissing Judaism imported very negative stereotype onto the parables and verify created an anti-Jewish veneer to travel along with whatever message they got the parables conveyed some PG&E example of that shirt. The idea in to take two very famous parable that in the parable of the good marriage and that the Americans are the oppressed minority and Jews are terrible people because they hate American and the whole thing is about the gentle mission well. Samaritans and Jews basically hated each other. It's not it's not a majority versus minority group and Samaritans actually are problematic category in early Judaism because Jews could not tell exactly how they were related American to the question of who is my neighbor is very, very well addressed with the question of American. This has nothing to do with the Gentile mission as far as the prodigal son goat the standard reading is that the Jewish God was distant and angry wrathful and therefore the data in the curable should've been expected to meet the younger child or dismiss them, or make it work for the next 40 years and consequently Jews would be surprised that God was merciful, just nonsense. It takes away the benevolent careful compassionate God of Judaism and it takes away any sort of ethical import to the parable absolutely soaked went.
When I came to faith in Jesus is as a Jew, my offering a little different in terms of II got caught up in the counterculture movement of the 60s it was a drug user for a couple of years and had a radical conversion experience, but I'd I grew up without really any exposure to anti-Semitism of the community in which I lived on my friends were Jewish, went to school with kids that were Gentile and nominally Christian, but we all hung out together and and so once I became a believer in Jesus the local rabbi gave me a book about anti-Semitism in church history written by Malcolm hey it was a shocker because II didn't know such a thing existed. I wasn't familiar with church history. No one come up to me and called me a Christ killer accuse me of deicide, or anything like that and and yet the reality is it's it's not just that there have been horrific things done over the centuries by professing Christians to Jews, but there is been a mindset with which Scripture is red so this complete contrast that now. John 117. These are completely different worlds. The law under Moses bad old that's passé race under Jesus notice the new thing was the contrast was not that dramatic exactly. So Jews did not invent great heritage and tradition. What I find with much of my work as I'm not I'm not dealing with rabbit anti-semi I'm dealing with nary well-meaning scholars and very well-meaning priest and pastors who would not have an anti-Semitic thought what they wind up doing is repeating things that they've heard from their teachers, or from their religious educators when they were children and banks can't hear how horrible their comments sound because they're simply not attuned to it in the same way and I remember back when I was a child every once in a while adults would say when we were being rambunctious. Stop acting like wild Indian bookkeeping. We read the racist and offensive comment, but at the time, we simply could not hear it, and what I'm trying to do in a good, much of my work is just open up the ears of Christian commentators saying you don't mean to sound anti-Jewish but that's the message you are conveying. You don't need to.
You don't need to make Judaism look bad in order for Jesus to look good so let's let's say week we look at some of the major works of Christian scholarship a couple generations ago.
Some of the theological dictionary of the New Testament and the editor of the first half at Gerhard Kittle was actually a Nazi bright scholar. This amazing scholarship in the 10 volumes and of course it's an older work, but you're just thinking okay I'm over getting his tax over getting this information in philology and exegesis of lexicography all at whereas there was a certain bias that ran through these tax almost unconsciously) and we still use their resources today and the students are aware of the bias they might take it this is what quote unquote gospel rather than one opinion and is colored by a certain tendentious for which we need to be on the lookout license of what would be a a a a caricature of of first century Judaism or pharisaical Judaism would be a caricature of that that maybe just your average Christian would hold to today.
I'm not sure there's an average Christian okay right but am and enters a fairly common.
There are number. For example, that Judaism was so oppressive to women. It was our president the president the president and in Jesus comes along and invent feminine and did all all first century. But you're all person you worry about that likes to think that all first century Jews are expecting a militant bio only agenda was to get Rome out of the country and they rejected you because you talk about turning the other cheek and did all first century Jews participate in a legalistic system and have no sense of the security of the law have no sense on unhelpful Bob function in terms of sanctifying daily life in terms of how the law functions.
That is what we would call today. Multiculturalism it was. It was following toward that prevented the Jews from assimilating into the broader Roman culture. That's why we still have Jews right in and in that context, then where would you say that the teachings of Rabbi Jesus could have been controversial could have seemed either extreme or revolutionary or different. When you stand not difference in terms of the contrast between Judaism versus Christianity. Where might he have ruffle some feathers.
I begin with the idea that if you're invested in tort you're going to argue about it because that's what you do so by arguing about were about. For example, or about dietary concerns Jesus places himself right in the heart of Judaism. Rather than take some stuff out of it, but he does regarding the law strikes me is actually an intensification of it rather than a liberal. I think of it very clear that the law says, but don't murder. He did being angry. The losses don't commit adultery.
Thinking about it, the law for good kicking folks out just don't take an oath at all, but always be on your yes be yes and your no be no. He debates with some people over what might be called the traditions of the fathers, for example. But you have to wash your plate or you beat that strikes me as well within the realm of first century Jewish concerns. The one place where it worry. I think you might've gotten pushback and you can even see it in the gospel is that at the time, Jews debated the circumstances under which you could get divorced. Everybody knew you could get divorced because Deuteronomy says you can get divorced but there are some rabbi should stay only in cases of adultery, which on its own requires to witness I'm sloppy. If nothing else, and in other cases, something untoward on on behalf of on the part in Jesus is don't get divorced or at least in Matthew and Luke cited by Paul. You don't get divorced.
Mark and Luke and Matthew get so I thank you for putting higher value on that marital bond. I think the people around him are primarily so things don't just force you if you leave your wife that you I friends will be like. I just got a few more minutes and I'll send you my biggest question. The last for Prof. Amy Jill Levine most recent volume short stories by Jesus. The enigmatic parables of the controversial Rabbi file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I Rabbi Dr. Levine, you have scholars like Alan Siegel with written about the two powers, Margaret Barker, the great angel's different perspectives about ideas of these highly exalted angels or different aspects of divinity in the ancient Jewish world Jew think there is there is any parallel in the ancient Jewish world through which Jewish followers of Jesus might have been able to look to Jesus in some different nice way. Some Jewish scholars to look to Jesus in a different nice way we would start with something like Paul. What folks have done through the centuries. In terms of believers in Jesus, may well come from the Jewish tradition. Could Jesus have been looked at as it is a superduper angel sure.
I think that's why the epistle to the Hebrews goes out of its way to say no, Jesus is not your brain you something more than that, but we know from the early church that there were many different ways of understanding Jesus. He was completely gone with me be more human than God. It was some sort spectrum I he becomes God at the cross, he becomes God, the resurrection, he is, is already incarnated God so even the New Testament gives us various ways that the early followers of Jesus attempted to make sense of this phenomenon that they had encountered and they did their best to to locate that phenomenon.
For those who were Jewish. Within the room.
Jewish tradition, could they do it in the context of monotheism I think. So they pick a Christian certainly seem to have done. It was a confusing sure is like asking someone simply to explain the Trinity. And then we wind up with lots of technical terminology from the Greek, but Christians ultimately believe in one God, but they believe in one God with for meetings usually doing it in terms of three different job descriptions said that sometimes when my Jewish principles that you have the Trinity is nonsense. I will say it is not nonsense that actually has good philosophical backing and them the easiest way might be to think of it in terms of God the creator.
That would be the father, God the Redeemer that would be the son and God the sustainer and that would be the spirit and much to my Jewish friends except hail trying yeah try friends furosemide other things in life not alright so suffering Messiah.
Some scholars recently have tried to revive the idea that there is Jewish belief in the suffering Messiah before the time of Jesus. Some of the two Dead Sea Scrolls of the so-called Gabriel Revelation others that David Mitchell's really push this and Martha have a false pushback a little about Messiah son of Joseph how far back does that go Jewish thinking in and was their concept of a suffering Messiah son of Joseph and Jesus day.
What's your take.
Having looked at this for many decades.and we have that from that fiscal whether he is, he is recorded value because of suffering is another question. We do know that the Talmud and picks up behind your eyes the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and speaks about the Messiah sitting among the people with leprosy at the gates of Rome wrapping and unwrapping so we also know that suffering could have some value in some Jewish thought and we get that through the martyr tradition becomes introspective, so that does a suffering Messiah make sense early Judaism sure the very idea that Jesus in whatever configuration you spell it makes sense early Judaism has to follow because it was early June to make sense of it would other Jews have disagreed absolutely. When it seems to me when it comes to religious claims, I don't personally find helpful apologetic approaches that attempt to remove the divinity of Jesus one way or the other.
Yes, talk about, historically, does he fit within this context absolutely. But when it comes to theological proof that's not a matter of academics and it's got nothing to do with what books we read or how smart we are bewitched eight belief this is a matter of grace otherwise puts more like love Bennetts likes to do, go you believe it because you believe it, and then all that history can help you understand it better. At the initial belief does not come from proof texting.it yet certain certainly that's the case in terms of where I came from. I didn't even know anything about Messiah ship Jesus of Jewish apologetics arguments when I had a radical conversion experience in of course studied in the more study the more these things made sense to me that I be the last to say III just came to my faith through decades of intellectual study in the May decision so we come to tenure, but it might not get saved you expect especially well salsa okay I don't know if you ever got a copy. I sent it through a colleague inside the two of my book, the real kosher Jesus which arose in response to Rabbi's release kosher Jesus right right side of the figure got your hands, but ultimately because I'm involved in the polemical sides of got the academic side, especially near Eastern studies and all of that Old Testament. And then I got the polemical debating side so that since more fundamentalists. The newbie even though you get an Orthodox synagogue, which is a whole other client is a whole other question but when it is there in in your conception of things, not as a person of faith, but as it hit historian.
Is there a place for this concept of Messiah that the Jewish Messiah has a mission into phases that he does his priestly work of atonement first and then comes to finish his royal work is is that in your mind a valid messianic concept toward concept, and it's not my job to judge what's valid is it, in addition to what I find in the predominantly resources absolutely what it if you go back a little bit. A couple of centuries before Jesus what you have is guide your life you're predicting the messianic age, not predicting the Messiah and the messianic age is basically one-shot thing. So the Messiah and the messianic age, package deal on if if people decide to separate out the coming of the misfire from the messianic age because the messianic age has not has not arrived yet.
That strikes me as a logical move on the part of of basic religious development are not interested. I'm not interested in telling people that their beliefs are wrong. I am very interested in seeing how those beliefs become enacted in history when other words what to believe and compel you to do and I'm interested in how people explain their own history and I'm interested in what am what readings they take from Scripture which it talks will always open to multiple interpretations, and you personally as as as a Jewish person expect there to be a little Messiah one day I hope so.
The messianic age really hope there's the resurrection that, but it's not. These theological concerns are not really foremost in in whatever makes you mean me and they never have. Because II I'm less interested in the philosophical and theological concerns that I am interested in the textual and the practical and I think that's simply the way my Constitution functions yet fully understood. I asked that his curiosity entirely, knowing that it would be in that since a direct intersect with the scholarship and I appreciate your candor, hey, it's been a delight having you on the air. Thank you so much deeply appreciate your time.
It's really good to talk with you. Thank you alright I friends appreciate Dr. Levine taking time to join us. And as I said is not a debate as there is intense that you just heard from a Jewish professor academic get some good insight to how world power evangelism God's calling for the church to go out and bring the good news to a dying world. My guest talk about you getting on the front lines stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I am delighted to sit in the studio now with the dear friend, colleague, also my trainer and a member the powerful evangelism evangelism equipping ministry Scott Neri. We been colleagues for some years friends for some years and then Scott's trained us on and off over the years. My last session painful session was just a few hours ago. This at first, I would been on the arrogance of Scott looking to want to fire thanks Dr. Remick so excited to be here with its is great to have you on the air.
Scott, let's just get a little of your background first how he raised time to come to faith.
Basically I was raised in southern West Virginia masala coalminer. I grew up in a family that was basically it was it was tough living. You know what we did for fun was sweet. We fought. We shotgun since what we did, but I came to experience the Lord because it was actually July 17, 1987. My friend came over my house in the right up before that point I was. I had a really every time I see a sign of the sound notices Jesus saves. You must be born again have no clue what that meant but something will happen in my heart and mind. My friend came over to my house and said hey you need to Estes to be Laura said okay is probably easy. Easy salvation ever and somebody told me, look to Mrs. Babbage let you know you can get saved today so we talk about you church decide what yes I said he's in.
This was like on a Tuesday and I didn't know any better.
Is it will just pray that the rapture doesn't have the force (or your starting assignment started on what was even crazier about each day with bio spring Lord please let the rapture happen or if you so finally Friday or Saturday night came in like finally. Tomorrow I'm going to save. Now I know I do say back to him that day, so Sunday morning came and I go to the church and turns out, the church burned down on Saturday night now yeah devotee the story. It's fresh to me now. It burned down, so we had an outdoor service and everybody was crying and everything in. I just want to get saved is like oh my gosh Michael. He saved others, no church so we had an outdoor service and the next thing you know they was. It was an old Baptist Church and in the Daniels West Virginia and they started to sing the song just as I am missing if you want to make Jesus you will run up to the front. Here it was in the grass so I ran up to the front. Get down on both knees left out. That's what you did.
You know it's and in when I got on both my knees that the grass was saturated with water from the fire trucks. Smoke was still coming them. I still hear the sound of the embers that were happening from the for the fire and it was just a strong conscience to me.
It was just a very prophetic symbol of what God called me to do is to get the body of Christ outside of the four walls to reach the law so I got up from that encounter, and the next thing I start telling people about Jesus. At any northward evangelism was so so, the way you are introduced to the Lord God prepared your heart supernaturally you are ready, but they're all the trappings of you get saved in the church building in the way you do it if you go to the building and then some professional leader leads you to the Lord and in human seeking to undo that mentality for many years now quite efficient is absolutely my my Bible college experience them the fast-forward.
After my encounter with the Lord. I going to Bible college and I when I go to Bible college right before that I was leading people to Christ. Everywhere went the malls, supermarkets were ever and I didn't know what the term evangelism was so good about because this is what it what you want to sign up for us of what you have. So we have pastoral ministry that we have, you can be a missionary. But we also have evangelism ministry. So what is that they said well that's where you tell people about Jesus. Also, some young man to the post anyway so that's how I started doing that alright so at Bible school. You doing this. Get some good experiences and bad in recent years, God is really released you to go out and equip the body to go out and equip others to get out and win the lost and what you're seeing is the supernatural ways that God is due is really talk about that. Have a great discussion.
They add check out for 20 fire.org what is for 24. Check it out by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown and and there. Scott Neri and Scott is a gifted evangelist who is gifted to equip the church to do the work of evangelism is a conference can be coming up in less than a month in North Carolina will tell you about that in a moment.
Scott, as you travel speaking different churches and you asked folks how many of them have led someone to the Lord last year in their lifetime. What you running into what I'm saying.
Dr. Brown is typically if I would put a statistic to it every time that I get people to raise their hands.
It seems like 95% of the people have not ever let anyone to Christ in their entire lives in the Lord. What I'm saying yeah right, which is pretty devastating. This, and if they do quote evangelize what is a consist of.
From what you can tell typically what to do as though those just go out those pass out tracks or they will just hold up a sign on the side of road since the fifth. Alright, so I look good to pass a trifold assigned do what you can do it even if they're inviting someone there inviting someone to church rather than to meet the Lord right that's right.
They've they're basically that's the way a lot of people still understand evangelism system Isamu Churchland, the church do it let somebody do it at the church that the preacher that's professional do it and that's because a lot of people just lay there, afraid of what evangelism is yeah and we were talking about that today during during the workout while I was able to talk about why people are hesitant to evangelize are afraid to evangelize. I give you some ideas what what you think.
Why here we have the good news of eternal life. In most cases some and share the Lord with us if we were raised in the faith is so apparent supporting a test is the kind of thing when you have it. Want to tell everyone supposed be in our blood. Why do you think so many of us do so little evangelize for me.
I think it's a fear of rejection, and I think it is also just really not embracing making the Lord's dream come true.
I know when I first started dating my wife out to my wife, Marcy, if you're watching or listening when I first started dating her.
I cannot tell. I cannot help but to tell people about because that which is important to you always have your time, your words and your money. So when you truly have a radical encounter with the Lord, you cannot help but to express it enough. I find this evangelism is when you really experience the love of God. It just comes out naturally in sin, so I'd like to get the rid of the fear of evangelism is not a performance-based thing. It's really just introduced into someone you were madly in love with yeah and obviously when our hearts are really beating brightly for the Lord. That's what we share the faith, the most right.
The summer could be that that we've walked with my first love, absolutely as well right now because you Stephenson supernatural ways and when always love is a mystery, working out you have a new story to tell me analyst every time you tell me it's as if it's the first time ever happen. You are always excited as childlike faith. So you're in the grocery store the other day. There's a pregnant check out config out what happens whether this lady in the grocery store and she's pregnant and I just wanted to encourage her.
I felt like the love guy was just wanting to lose out of me and and I are you always thinking that when you're out you always think about how can I bless someone that's that's my objective actually modified before I came here I was at a restaurant with my wife and we were just ministering to the waitress that we were just fine if you just because Jesus always reach out to people so love cannot help but to give you know so it was I was at the rid the other grocery store and I see this lady and she's pregnant in my heart of hearts I just felt that she was having a son and he was going to be hot and fiery one coming not mean how perfect can it be a 50-50 chance boy girl writer writes a vivid description about an echo's will for a little further hot and fiery when I heard that my spirit so I go up to us. Excuse me ma'am I said I really want to encourage you today. I just feel in my heart that you're about to have a son and he's going to be hot and fiery one. She looked at me with her big she is. Oh my gosh.
He is, I am having a son and his name is Aiden and it means hot and fiery one. She goes how did you how do you know that what what what what's wrong what happened. I looked us a memo said I'm a Christian I'm a Christian and I and I hear the voice of the Lord because he loves me and he wants to have a relationship with you right in that moment a letter to Christ at the cash register. It was amazing.
She gave her heart to Jesus prayed princes for repetitive or sins and and and since then she's had her baby so it's been amazing, really an end and you're seeing it's not you understand just saying words with someone with the sinners prayer in itself is not the issue with them. Really looking to the Lord's right you're seeing people genuinely touched absolutely right that we have a bunch of stories we tell, but so people will listen with even more attention. Talk about what happened on the plane with a compass all right on what I was flying to New Orleans to minister and asthma playing a memo as a largest. If you want me to speak to somebody. I'm willing to have you give you ministry in New Orleans, not on the plane you go to church and ministry that right. I was in alright so what what are you on the plane. That's where you have time for yourself right right well you know that's how we can view but Jesus is my full-time Lord. Sunday shouldn't be a full-time Christian I like so so I'm I'm on the plane and I want to things I realize if if I'm going to represent him. I want to be the gospel with legs wherever ago so I'm on the plane and is this couples beside me. They look like models that are very young beautiful couple and they have lots of money there dressed very nice and some of the plane and it would strike up a conversation asked me where I was from a Tolman Concorde Charlotte area Vanessa Rigas from us or from Raleigh us is really a so what you doing real well. We are actually flying to New Orleans to go party. Is it okay they said they look to minister what are you doing so well at that moment I felt the Holy Spirit tell me to tell them my secular job at the time so I'm a trainer I worked in the NFL love than this. I said why the guys really interested is like tell me more is that I was in Krav Maga instructor whose eye he wanted everything but then I looked at the mess and by the way, I'm also minister of the gospel and I travel to teach people how to hear the voice of God in the laces. Really, that's fascinating. I suggest it was more fascinating about that.
She says what's up he's talking to me about you right now so I say would you like me to tell you what he's telling now the guy he was a little freaked out that moment because like is this guy you know. But I'm really here in the Holy Spirit speak to my heart about this couple, so I looked at the lesson was. Let me tell you what he's telling me she said please do so looked at her in the natural you and think anything about it because she's beautiful. She's got money she doesn't like has a problem with this Holy Spirit is everything. So he says this to through to my heart. I looked at arrested you suffer with so much insecurity and what you're dealing with is that it causes you so much insecurity and pain that every night that you have to write creative poetry just to go to sleep when I said that tears literally start to squirt out of Russell and the guys like freaked out okay and I look at him and I said I want to tell you this, my friend. I looked at him I said this is what I hear my heart.
You you work for your father but you don't want to work for him because you're too afraid to tell him you really want to do different career and he was like whoa dude.
He knows what are you a psychic or something.
I said no I'm actually Christian and at that moment I was able to share the gospel with and because the Lord revealed their heart to them. He they saw a God whose personal, who knows everything about them especially the word of knowledge. So the Lord show me who they are and it was him and the next thing you know there pain of the sins confessing Jesus Christ as Lord at 34,000 feet in the air is amazing and ends from what you could tell what as you spoke with him about Jesus.
What what impact was having today understand that their whole lives have to go to different direction. Absolutely. I told him I said listen, just I told him I said you just don't say a prayer you have to believe in your heart you have to turn your whole life around this time it's not just a quick fix gospel in a sentence. Exhibit okay that you you got this crazy gift in. I'd never heard the voice of God when he tells him what's up.
He was the quickest way to hear the voice of God is given the word of God. You know the Lord will speak to his word. First and foremost, but you still have to learn to cultivate a love relationship with him. Learn how to pray.
You pray you listen to him some 40 6/10 us to be still no I'm God.
Jesus in John 1412, the works that I do. You're going to also an even greater works. So if Jesus told us that we had. We can walk in this power. He said even Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 2 verses four through five is that income to with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit of God and power so that your faithful rest of the was a member on the power of God and so when people tell me that I'm like, listen you are you a believer with the sounds all those who believe. So you simply just go out and you love people and again we can get in the Holt teaching of its again I wrote a book about occult power evangelism talk about the gifts of the spirit help pertains to evangelism.
We are called to desire the spiritual gifts, but we pursue love, then desire gifts and after that is, we just bring the power of the Holy Spirit because the Lord wants to reach people more than we do know that's his heart. He was tell me that one day I will say Loretta's please make my dream come true. I just want you to make my dream come true, and the Holy Spirit spoke to Mrs. okay but I want you to make my dream come true and he goes that none should perish but that all should come to repentance, so that's the dream of God yeah and and again it's not about putting on a show. It's about God loves a dying world absolutely must use us to touch some friends you can get this book. I wrote the forward to it. Power evangelism is many book power ventures by Scott Neri activating a Jesus lifestyle have the Holy Spirit wants to work in you and through you touch a lost world. And remember, it starts for God and love for this world. That is the key. We are going to talk with Stephen Baldwin and then to come back and continue my conversation. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 8663 here again is rejoin us in a few minutes. We were scheduled to have Christian Stephen Baldwin. All of this yesterday emergency came up here to reschedule so we grabbed him back on today. Hey Stephen, thanks for coming to modify with us a blessing from your brother doing great, thriving, blessed and enjoying the goodness of God. The obviously we could talk politics and fury come supporter and one of your brothers.
Some people might know is not that we will go that way, we will go that way, although with be a fascinating discussion, but maybe later. Later we could take a look toward the end times we could. We can go that direction, but you sent me a trailer the other day. Just something amazing that you're involved with now and I want our listening audience to hear about it because it's it's unique and boy when I said I thought you are the man to do this, so this one man play that's now on Nvidia, what, what's this about it. It started out when a pastor Collins with the church.
Colby Orchard right outside of Chicago. You Scottish and he wrote a sermon many years ago, probably five or six years ago and its title was practiced with the devil's supper with the Savior.
It was the story of the thief on the cross, which fast-forward that that became a book which I was invited to do the audiobook. And after that they should what you think you could call this office is a one-man show no but certainly if I go to the Lord prayer about it. He tells me what to do them. The we have nothing to worry about. So that's what I did and we did this live stage performance one-man show last Easter and the Easter break or an elastomeric did we videotaped it to turn it into a film version of the theatrical stage to play and it's just out available right now our Christian Cinema.com and or if you want to go to that new movie it's out there right now I go talk to Michael it's it's really been something the response to it is been really humbling to be honest with you, people are just connecting with it and that many people in ministry are now connecting with it and leading up to this Easter is just a wonderful tool so to speak that you can use to open that no kind of conversation with somebody if you wanted to yeah Steve, I'm not an actor, but sometimes I've debated the opposite of what I believe erodes it to illustrate a point door have to role-play and stuff like that seat you try to put yourself in that in that position and an action to take on the character but obviously as after your doing it even more deeply, but but you have your own testimony being saved out of the world and find the mercy of God.
So did you find it easy to put yourself into this character well so the brilliant question brother. Thank you because you know as an actor and an artist will we do, and acting with all these different methods of acting what what they're all seeking truth, the most honest interaction emotionally with creating a character book.
I'm not good enough to pretend I could figure out how to play the thief on the cross. What I mean. This truly is my first and I don't hesitate to say this, I'm just weird to say which is it's my first spirit filled performance and I say that because I'm being honest Michael. It was one of the Savior. I just had to go to the Lord and save like you're gonna have to complete holy glee. Believe me on this one and and guide me through the emotions really what I did is there a bit of performance Americans run a stage of the timing and where you're supposed to be during a certain lighting to all of course all that takes whatever skill but some for me and I'll tell you what I walked away with it from an don't you know it, isn't it always the case when we think were going over here to do that thing that you know we feel the Lord calling us to do and that's true. But of course Lord's doing two or three other things at the same time that we don't even know about right. So the one thing I walked away from having played the thief on the cross.
From this rendition of the book etc. which the narrative is fascinating. It's the story of the thief on the cross told by the thief. Now that he's in heaven and he's recounting what happened on that day, so that's the material it's fascinating and I gotta tell you, the one the one word that came back to me and really slammed me. You know, pretty hard in a good way.
It is the words humility because the humility the thief must've gone through the several hours hanging on the cross next to Jesus. You know what, what, in turn, inevitably, in his thinking and his logic and his mortality brought him to a place of humility to definable you just have the revelation to say what you know what you are the same. Just if you don't mind, remember me when you just that much willingness was enough for God's grace.
It's a beautiful it's a beautiful rendition of it. It's really quite special. Incredible. Stephen maybe this is a trade secret. I've always wondered how you just turn on tears you really feel the energy is there some actor stricken doing that or do you really get yourself to feel and how you do it there's a technique to it, and there's kind of just associating your own emotions to what you're doing, you know it's for the words you're saying and playfulness when you're a kid and you imagined with the G.I. Joe you are the start you know whatever that that thing just grown up to be honest and and it's so funny because you just reminded me of a great story my friend Mike Lindell from my pillow, the inventor of this, my pillow device which the people are buying all of the place either sleeping better now but forgive me for this blog is simply yes or no who is and he's the guy on TV show 20 mustache and bless a lot of people in Houston on fire Christian as well that we just partner together in a new Christian company called light beam media. This is the first thing report and how does this happen how I got here. The story of the thief on the cross. And that's the video but is the film version of the theatrical play and Ed and Mike Lindell and friends of his family and my wife and a bunch of people they came to Chicago when I performed this on stage and I'll never get this Michael you Mike Lindell conducted every he's from Minnesota talking like this little bit you know you your wish is my rent for politics but the are back in Washington he came up to me after one of the first performances backstage any systematic euros. Hey, that was pretty terrific possible. Thanks Mike, I appreciate you know, like, really it actually looked like you were crying real tears.
Mike.Busher I love you dear friend and your fabulous friends at a time. Stephen here, but you got to see this is powerful and listen to thousands 1 million to one. I want to watch that than your brother in Donald Trump house that friend endorsement to share with the whole world. I do love you, make you work, it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 66343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown sitting here in my studio in Colligan: my trainer when our schedules coincide. Scott Mary. He is the author of a powerful mini book I've written forward to a power evangelism by Scott Neri. He has launched a national ministry to equip believers to get out and win the lost in the life and power.
The spirit website for 20 fire.org will tell you how we got the name for 20 fire in the moment.
Scott great Zebulon fire division with a Scott. When people hear stories about how God is using you.
You shared stories with me. I share with my family with my friends because it's amazing to see with the Holy Spirit is doing, but one of the biggest things you try to tell people is it's Jesus doing the work by the spirit.
Therefore, if you could use you use me someone else.
So when you go out to a church you don't only preach in the churches and minister. The people there but you try to get the people to go out Absalom and Mr. Ellis. That's a prerequisite absolutely okay what happened was one church, and you got the pastor go out with you and you in the park together. What happened that was really awesome what happened. I went to do a power evangelism conference there and and I was teaching them first rent is for 20 the kingdom of God is not in word but in power for 20th in for 25 RSO that's that's of the blahs ministries call that's based on know in other words would not call just to give another sermon does not demonstrate something to show his love. So with this we were going out to local park and the pastor of the church want to come along and as were going. This is an actually in Charlotte north Carolina, he saw a person on a park bench with crutches and he said hey Scott, I've been seeing this guy ever since we got here.
Once your pro forma said no I'm not going to.
This is what you mean he says you're going to a set of you're going to I'm going to be there with USAID. But here's the thing you. This is God is no respecter of persons, but is respecter faith in these signs follow those who believe. I said are you a believer says yeah so will disbelieve the word and do the word okay so I go with them to this man and this man is on crutches and he's got this big like this plastic cast on his ankle. He cannot even walk in.
The pastor goes up to him. We strike up a conversation and I and I'm just there coaching him and encouraging him because I don't want him to think that this is just something that I do this is this is what every single believer can walk in if you just believe and he estimates of what's wrong with you so he said he know he he has a really bad sprain.
It was like 1/3° sprain as a trained therapist, I can instantly look at it yeah it is very puffy, very swollen and the he asked that the manager would you mind if we pray for you. He said sure so the pastor looked at me with reservation. Is it really even it's amazing that he's a pastor. Yeah, he's never really done this before.
I said all you have to do is put nuclear hands on the body parts and you'll have to have a long dialogue with a sick body party to say in Jesus name be released faith and he prayed over him and and I told must have the guy get up and check it is a realistic guy gets up Texas. The swellings instantly go you so if you're out of moan.
I sent. You're not just a specific trainer you you are certified massage therapist you and you can you know you always tell me this thing here goes.
This muscle here and so you so you knew what you're looking I know exactly what I was looking and when I saw it he had no edema they deem the swelling was gone and I start to walk around. He goes oh my gosh what happened. There is absolutely no pain while in that moment, the pastor told him who did that for him and let the got Christ really yeah so here is a pastor but reluctant to step out and and he believed God. Jesus healed this man and as a result of it. The man turned his life to the Lord. I friends we've got a lot more time with Scott.
I want to ask you some practical questions but but here's the thing, it's Jesus who does the work by the power the spirit is it's not Scott Neri. It's not Mike Brown is not your pastor. It's not you, it's Jesus doing the work by the spirit. This is a demonstration of the resurrection of Jesus is alive. He's the one doing the work. This is way because people to him like that. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown Julius on the line of fire.
He one of our goals is to strengthen you help encourage you to go into the work of the Lord is no greater work, then the work of evangelism, Scott Neri, my guest today mentioned that he quoted me on something I said I felt was quoting someone else. One of our grads.
Fabian he's in the Middle East now, but this quote is simple that Jesus and say follow me and I'll make you apostles and prophets interventions. Pastor ceases it follow that make you fishers of men. That should be for every one of us and there's really no higher calling than to lead someone to the Lord and Scott. Interestingly, you don't you have a complexion that focused on the what country you're from Griffin West Virginia is in Canada you give us that you look like an Israeli when you're doing crop I got training in Israel. You probably is really all right. You also would like to like bodybuilding kinda guy. So this is not you don't look like your typical minister to set help you think.
I'm sure does it because you know again II go up to some of the roughest looking people and just share my faith. But again, when people see me coming and you know I met you fairly big I am and I do look I'm I'm dark and so you it's I don't look like this the normal person that would do this I get like this Kevin you have the stereotypical ideas but but somehow it's a good way for you to just be able to talk to people because I don't have certain walls up when when you're like working out when you are at your biggest and strongest how much how much can you benchpress probably around 465 and then what about like your you can. These massive shoulders and shoulder presses and stuff like that when you work out with all my gosh I was present over 500 show the precedent over $500 kidney so I went about legs 1259 pounds yeah I thankfully he he breaks things down. For those of us who are who are not the Hulk. That being said, we do our work as you just pause here for for one Medicus always go straight stuff and talk you work out or challenging folks you you work out professional athletes, things like this on a Marley 60 silica workouts to put us through Brown you actually want fair to say about you is I worked in the NFL. I've worked in the NHL work. The name BA and even NASCAR as a picker trainer and when you work from professional athletes. There is a certain level of dedication and focus that they have this different from the normal people and I would say definitely you are up there is with the proof you train like professional athletes with your intensity.
There's no doubt about it. So it's it's deftly different way of working out everybody that the that the way we work. Ask Dr. Brown is hard-core. There's no doubt about that then. And we've we've had the joy of having other guys come in the trash talk to.
They were throwing up.
Within 15 minutes of us are less. Sometimes we have one guy like last like five minutes was a five just before you have a dropout that I think 15 minutes before using the bathroom, but he was 32. I should get like of course to some 62 are much older. It's much easier for me to do this, you're too young so we had a mess of it. He took it is a good life. All right, but it is, is there spiritual benefit to working out. I believe it is a really good about the bottom of the Bible clearly says that body exercise prophets little but it does profit. Something then again it ran a world that which is different than the ancient world where there was a lot more physical labor required of you. So that's like you know of physical exercise was almost like an extra, there was like bodybuilding would be as opposed to just be an and in good shape so it's just you and you find yourself that it helps with with the energy level with metal shortness things like that. My gosh even when I travel. Dr. Brown is like just changing my eating habits because I I was like eating normal for a while as a star travel on my crazy schedule, so I started eating less sugar and more vegetable. Come on, man. I'm learning from him and I am in my little house right and it really did make a difference because of a get jet lag really bad, but it did help a lot better. Good yes I come back I come back from Italy one time I've been traveling like 22 hours I got home at 1011 at night.
Now it's 11. The next morning's workout and Scott says to me's so dark I don't so II just I just got back fluid lessons are your machine. You'll be fine. And I remember the first moment running up and down the steps. Whatever might 10 times up and down the steps with Burpee's in the middle of it. The first start is the right thing. Okay I do this, but he's there heat. He knows if you're ready to explode. He's there.
They slid out all right enough with that so you spent some time with the students if our school ministry. Excellent. Even though we do constant outreach and there always on the street sharing the gospel. Some of what you help them grow in was was somehow new for them or they had been experiencing in. A group of guys went out they were inspired by your teaching what happened while I was teaching them and tell them about Jesus even run her bunk. He said when we graduated monkey school. He said signs and wonders of the dinner bill the gospel us is what will really do that really grounds pray for the sick and the lead in the Christ. So I was challenge them. Okay I want to go out today don't you pray for a bunch of sick people find them there everywhere, so these three guys got together and you you another students faculty with her and Lisa will still find some sick people working to find them, let's go to the emergency room. Wow training there. We got sharp guidance right so these three guys reforest school ministry since went to the local emergency room and they just go in and they sit down and aced strike up a conversation because I explained to them when you go around people. Remember be a fisher of men. You have to understand, there is a way of presenting yourself and strike up a conversation and what's motivating us is love absolutely love is the key and they starstruck him a conversation with people in the waiting area, waiting to be seen by Dr. and in that moment.
There were six people that they prayed for in six people literally got healed right there and got up and walked out of emergency room so that they had. Whatever the symptoms condition was serious enough to get them in the emergency room must be a busy night there six of actually left actually left in the and what happened they started leaving the hospital. The hospital had to kick them out because of losing business.
I listen friends.
These are people we know and look if you're sick enough to go to the emergency room. You don't just get up to 70 pray for you. You want to make it look like you were healed. But God is really touching people you are out ministering. You are at a church and you have this word this Bellavita Horace Tello listens about this. This is, I was actually in Wyoming and in the meeting there. I am, I see this lady in the meeting, but I feel like in my heart she was supposed to have a friend with her you get these impressions document described as Dr. Brown is when you spend time listening to the Lord, you start to learn how he speaks to you and it's it's it's like a hunch in your heart is just an inner knowing that I've taken time.
The last of been a minister now 23, 24 years now often on inbound vocational but learning how to hear the Holy Spirit. I pray in the spirit a lot that it's okay to you edifies my spirit. All right, so that so you feel in tune with the spirit. When you have this sense yes okay this is this is what I feel. This is the Lorton okay so go ahead, so I'm I'm looking at this lady, not just have the sense that she has a friend that was supposed to be there that's not there and I stress and where you were you supposed to have somebody with you tonight and she said yeah my really good friend supposed to come but she couldn't make it. She she hatching she can find a ride or something and I said I looked are so will I kept hearing this phrase my Bella my Bellavita okay, they have no clue if this means I have no clue and is there a sense of risk when you do this. It's all risk. Not that you're not getting up making a proclamation like I'm telling you this is God if it's not God through your Bible out, though, believing Jesus your time hat like this is what I'd sensing pencil or film heart and I'm never going to see me around on rounds and thus that the Lord always say I'm I'm feeling this in the heart because if I miss it, which I have missed it before but my motive is love. Okay when you understand the work the gifts of the spirit world knowledge is knowing something present and past. So in that moment I had a supernatural download that this person had something to do with Bellavita. Okay which is that this is not just like I see that you have a friend and the friend is sad, all great.
That took a prophet to know that I see you have a friend in the friend is under 8 feet tall know this is pretty specific to specific.
All right, so what happened so I will I look at an asset. She is and I say do you know if the word Bellavita means anything to her. She says I have no idea this in the church service. Yeah this is rather people in front of people. Okay, so what have I said can you text or in find out this is a major risk source see as well. I have no I did know this is her best friend. She text her and the lady text her back. She was yeah that I have actually attached to my armistice Bellavita and the friend of the ring had no clue that she did and and and and with that Bellavita had a long word that the Holy Spirit gave me up, phone, and us, and I read this word or through text to her and invited her to come back to the next service the following day. Turns out she came back to the service. The following day the girl was not saved okay. She wasn't saved and because the Lord was so specific and calling her out. She said I now believing God while she repented of her sitting gave May Jesus our Lord. It was amazing. So so you have learned to grow in this but it's always exciting and it's it's never about the performance. It's always about the person that God cares about and in friends we have a living God is working a living way say I hereby like these Muslims, faith in the Middle East and their having dreams is like hey how about the Holy Spirit touching people right in your own neighborhood. It's amazing to see what happens to walk in love yourself up to the Holy Spirit and friends. I'm hearing the testimony from Scott.
Sometimes several times we living God caring about people and let's talk practically come back with your average person.
The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I am video and trainer Scott Neri talk about personal evangelism. So Scott, it's inspiring to me to hear the stories of how the Lord uses human to be sued in a restaurant with your wife and next thing you're ministering to the gal that serving you and you'll be on a plane to be a grocery store you're about to speak somewhere to get a hotel right in the gal behind the counter you Appel you look like a pastor then ends up sharing the gospel.
This woman needs to get right with God. So you see this grapefruit many times a supernatural word sometimes with people being dramatically healed, so might be listening and thinking okay I it's I just I don't know I could do that stuff. Or maybe God uses him but let's even step away from the miracles.
The supernatural aspect which I was a big part of it. You've written the book power evangelism but just helping people share the faith, helping people get out of their box of not sharing the gospel with people they don't know or with lost friends when he starts to look at it this way. I'm a big guy because I lift weights I can get this way overnight. It takes time to learn as you step into a so you growing confidence as you step out but when it comes to basically reach not sharing your faith just let somebody know this, the basics. Jesus loves you, you know, a lot of people go out and I was told this. Some people say God loves. Yes I know say Jesus loves you as many Gaza people worship in this world, but there's only one Jesus.
So when you bring Jesus on the scene is everything.
So Jesus loves you and just learning how to not be afraid of what people think about you because when you Jesus you he made us accepted in the beloved. So if we really and truly believe that no one can make us feel rejected because no one can take away that which they did not give you because he made us accepted. So if we know that were accepted by God when we minister to people were co-laborers with crises. He's with us. He's so we step by faith by I used the acronym CPR. Just like when you do CPR in the natural culinary pulmonary resource updates. It was a spectacular resuscitation, but some in the spirit.
The same thing for release on the crises you cultivate the soil. What's that mean you investigate and relate and stimulate what's up when you strike up a conversation, ask questions about them be more interested in them. Find out some things about them relate to them noticed him. Chantel, who you are. Find out about the lease find their name asked him something about themselves and then you relate to them find common ground and then after that once you cultivate that soil of their hearts are more open to receive the word to plan. That's when you share your faith, you share your testimony in, or even Revelation 1910 is the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Just testifying about what he did for you. You cannot underestimate the power of testimony so because it's so personal to yourself.
You can do share your testimony was someone you know it's true. And then after you share your faith or your testimony. What happens next is my favorite lead them to Christ as some would you like to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord, would you would you like to have this relationship with a real God who wants to have a tape with you and when you can have a relationship with. And when they really see a true God and semi that loves them. They're going to turn around and repent of their sins turn around and you believe them to Christ and and show them the Roman Romans nine and not tonight tonight him and end end end in doing the Scott if if you tell someone. Jesus loves them. Obviously you can have even wrong conceptions about Jesus, but at least you've narrowed it down to this, of went when you share the gospel with them and they hear this message does that mean to them that he approves of your sin that he's okay with your lifestyle that you think how do we make sure that that's not what they're hearing, I will. The big thing is you have to let them know that when you have make him Lord, there is a cost. There is you turn from your old ways. You cannot live like you're in the world again were in the world but not of the world. So I always want them to know is when you're sharing the gospel with them.
This is a cost you turn around again repent when they do a 180 complete going the opposite direction.
So that means you leave the old lifestyle and when you inure explaining that with sin separates you from God and him, and when people truly have an encounter of that love of God. I've seen it all the time. They will turn around and it's like no one can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, just like when I was on the earlier mind when I give my heart to Christ.
He was drawing me the whole time so I was probably the easiest salvation history. Okay so but it when I found is that yeah you let them know that sin is not right and it deftly cannot be tolerated live in them can live because of God's love. He calls us out of it because it is sinful and destructive and end within the body.
You see God's love as well. Remember telling about a veteran with a terrible leg condition how we feel that was amazing this was probably one of the most dramatic miracles ever seen and so I was at this meeting and this man came in limping that he was limping pretty bad now you have to take appropriate profits and though it obviously has one leg shorter than catheter so I said hey man, I said looks like you always need prayer this prayer that God grows out your leg and looked at Mrs. Will Guzman drama like he has to give me new bone sodium mean he rose up his pant leg is a Vietnam vet. He rose up his pant leg and he literally had a scar all across his femur. He was missing about 4 to 5 inches of his femur literally so I send out a chair and I had no idea what to do but just worship the Lord because at that moment I didn't feel faith and sin. Even if you don't feel you just believe you say, faith is not in the feeling but is just a you you simply believe you believe this way is faith talks to the mountain stops talking about the mountain. So, in this moment have pulled out his leg and literally was 5 inches shorter were not talking an inch and 1/2 or two were talking 5 inches. It's not based on a ship is not a chiropractor just adjustment. This literally is he's missing part of his femur. Okay, you can't. You can't fabricate the stuff so I just held out his legs and I said Jesus I worship you I worship you Lord and in that moment, the presence of the Holy Spirit just it's almost like Windows just came right into the room and right in front of everybody this man's leg started to grow and he started to hit his legs, and I can feel it in my life. I can feel he was freaking out. It came completely out five whole inches. He stood up, he walked pain-free with absolutely no limp know what's amazing. I went back to the same place three months later and he still healed, so he'll still yield God it and and how long had he been handicapped out 2030 years amazing and is grateful to God, grateful, very grateful and what you did even feel faith you worship Jesus audit Jesus came and healed and that listen. He loves his people.
This is a demonstration of his love, and if were sick were to worship and love him anyway, but it's amazing to see with the living God is doing and Scott. You got a conference coming up where is this gonna be this will be a far church in Concorde North Carolina and some may fifth, sixth and seventh handouts will be with me.
Keith Collins and Jennifer LeClair in which the focus it's it's the demo encompasses perfect love and power.
It is basically an evangelism conference repeat really gets stirred up in the power of the Lord and were gonna do an outreach actually during the actual conference right so friends to find out go to for 20 know we you know we have we have actually different websites that's perfect love and power.com I perfect love and power.com.
This will be a great time for you to get equipped get impacted and going impact of his perfect love power.calm