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A Dialogue with a Humanist; Therapy Dogs on Campus; and A Secular Rapper Calls out Pastors

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
May 9, 2017 4:40 pm

A Dialogue with a Humanist; Therapy Dogs on Campus; and A Secular Rapper Calls out Pastors

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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May 9, 2017 4:40 pm

The Line of Fire Radio Broadcast for 05/09/17.

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I'm about to have a fascinating dialogue with you.

Minutes jointly right here on the line of fire stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH your again is Dr. Michael Brown is the striking. I was not aware of this when I wrote my open letter to Miley Cyrus but she wrote a book in 2007 called Miles to go so what should be about 14 years old there and in my article I reference her 10 years ago so that would be when she was 14, and according to woman named Donna posting us on Facebook in the book miles to go. Cyrus said that things that made her sad were people who don't know Jesus and one of her goals was to read the entire Bible. While hey friends Michael Brown here delighted to be with you today. I got some good news and exciting interview to have 866-34-TRUTH's number to call anything you want to ask me talk to me about question beyond challenge and beyond get clarification on that's number 866-34-TRUTH 7884.

So here's the good news and a lot of stuff to talk about happening in the world around us, but first the good news. I wrote an article own lesson two weeks ago.

Why won't they debate me or even dialogue with me. Who are the they who might talking about growing up if if I would say seven they say. My father who was a lawyer in the New York Supreme Court almost became a judge before he passed away in 1977. He was sitting whose they who were they don't just give a nebulous statement like that. So who or that they in why won't they debate me or even dialogue with me. Well other public figures. Journalists TV personalities others bloggers where they are cool.

Challenge me or who will say hey we want to talk in dialogue and then when I reach out to them. Silence. For example, for example, a gay Jewish man whose active in Jewish teaching and spreading the knowledge of Judaism while being openly homosexual's obviously working more liberal sides of Judaism. He posted some outrageous things challenging me on my twitter feed and I support let's talk, radio show ceramic increase reply from us and by God's grace of God, a great platform ready. I'm inviting you onto my platform. I give you exposure.

No possible to what, let's talk privately. We talk by phone silence or pebble Montel Williams listeners happen with him and he's an active, unable to be participating, but I wrote a letter about his segment on Megan Kelly last year he wrote a response to it.

I would response to his response, my PA contacted his publicity guy and Montel said yes I will come on the air with you.

Let's discuss these issues and then here's I can do it like six weeks and it is a family commitment.

Some other things and will do it great. We follow-up silence was a woman didn't know who she was but a liberal professor at University writing for the very liberal Huffington Post and wanted to interact with white evangelicals who voted for Trump and even though I did vote for president trump with reluctance. I said okay great I responded to her article point by point you in a lengthy article I wrote a lengthy response. I said let's let's interact. I tweeted her before and after the article, let's interact my PA reached out to her and another ministry reached out to her because I published on their website. All inviting her to dialogue. She said I want to talk to people from this perspective, I sit here I am. Silence well on that changed last week when I began to dialogue with it an individual. A gentleman who had written an article that I took exception to.

I would response to him and tweeted to him and said, hey, I shown talk is absolutely so little bit later this hour be joined with humanist science writer faulted the Methodist Church using the Bible as a moral guide fascinating will be right back on file is the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH dear again is Dr. Michael Brown went to college, wave, just so I can see your hand college, university, okay great I see those hands.

Thank your hands but I can feel the waves little bit okay question? When under pressure during finals week. Some things like yeah probably probably on pressure maybe getting your list papers in finals and things like that. Have you been under more pressure. Since you been out of college or university, probably so general life. I would say is tougher than college or university. These my own experience through through undergrad and grad school that real life I Seesmic Israelite going on college campus, but life after college and university to me is more challenging, tougher, more ups and downs, more issues to deal with more responsibilities than when you're at college university where a lot of the pressures have to do this with peer pressure, relational issues and have to do with the pressure of study and learning and things like that but generally speaking, you don't have as many responsibilities then as you do afterwards if you're married with family. Maybe you're working really hard on a job with high expectations may be other things in life we have to make decisions. Putting that living at home anymore and things like that were living on a dorm in a dorm setting anymore, so the others pressure and stress in college, university, I think there's more pressure and stress in real life. All well these days.

These days we have to coddle our students because we don't want them to be under too much pressure now for all my millennial listeners that despise this kind of coddling good for you since the waited show a generation what it means to be a responsible adult to be a man to be a woman take things on and to say hey we can get through this 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 784 is the number to call. I bring this up because there is an article on the college by Jeremy Beeman for the University of Mobile therapy dogs chocolate Play-Doh universities offer ways to cope with finals yeah you want to play with the Play-Doh over here because you've got an advanced physics final yet. I know it's tough who with all of their say. Let's go back to things that gave you peace and joy as little children now that you are on your way to graduate from college and university. Now that you are taking demanding tests in finals.

How about if we do building blocks to gather.

Maybe you're about to get your architectural degree may be about to graduate with honors, but now you can use the building blocks and build because the finals are too much pressure.

Yeah, I have a problem with this.

I have a problem with this. Jeremy writes at the University of Pennsylvania. For example, several different student groups offered various study breaks including a Zumba class a videogame stress reliever and a chocolate and chocolate labs event the daily Pennsylvania reports student organizers did not respond to the college fixes requests seeking details annual tradition at University of Illinois offer students are reading day, place of classes. University hosts a variety of nonmandatory events help and in helping students study and destress out of the wood goes into that.

Maybe that's healthy. Append states destress vest included origami folding we gaming brain massage music and more. According to the University's website. University of Michigan offered Play-Doh and more. An event billed as a way to destress before final exams. According to its Facebook page of the relaxers that the event included glitter bottles, Legos and dominoes take Legos even better than building blocks specially like a set of your architect or something like that. But older okay now let let me in all fairness in all fairness, put a positive construction on some of these things right. Hey, everybody needs to relieve stress.

Hey, it's a healthy thing you're about to get into a very intense time role your your weeks of study in preparation to culminate. Some people do well with test. I used to love taking tests. We had other family members that despise taking tests.

For some it's nerve-racking for some exhilarating process does take got a do it, but yeah, it's if it can be stressful if you don't study well if you have to cram or if you work in a job, and schedules busier you overload yourself with credits or whatever it is. Yeah I understand to be stressful so hey let's just destress will do better on the tests.

For example, if you can get a good nights sleep before taking tests. You're apt to do better.

Your mind will be sharper than if you hardly sleep at all and how many of used to do that you cram all might barely sleep and then the next day your brains in the fog because you weren't sleeping your how to rely on on extra caffeine to get you through and after week, you're ready to collapse.

So yeah, if there ways okay everybody that's true discover let's just do some physical activity and get our minds off test work for a few hours and actually strengthen our brains by doing physical activity. Yeah I I understand that I everybody so tense. Every okay take the pressure off.

I'm in India every year. And depending on what time of the year of been there many times children would come up to me and it's a uncle which is the affectionate, respectful way of addressing uncle. Could you please pray for me. I have tests this week and and there's tremendous pressure among those in the schools to do well on the tests and and so on. I I understand that and if you could help them all right to table you take her mind off test for little while, and were just going to do something else. I I understand I understand the logic behind that but some of plays into the entire mindset.

Some of this plays into the entire cultural mindset with micro aggressions and safe spaces and you can't do anything to upset the student and they have to be able to have their safe space and trigger warning if the class is going to mention something that could potentially be offensive or something like that and they look you got real life, yet real life ahead that you got real life with real challenges and end Play-Doh is not do it for you not look at some people what they have like this Baldy squeeze or something like that that's that's distressing and did a little thick. I am just a place to focus helpful in that regard. Keep your Plato, but what I'm saying is this is preparing for life you Howard, you're absolutely right.

The pressure and stress of going through basic military basic training are just a wee bit more than prepare for college exams there a whole lot of things that are stressful and challenging and and and Play-Doh before your finals as I can prepare you for your boss sit you down and in the offices you are underperforming and if you don't turn things around or out of a job young man young woman all right can I just get my Play-Doh please. Would it be okay Mr. boss of if I just brought my therapy dog in with me because it helps me deal with stress. Yeah, you get a job from college to Wall Street on bring the Play-Doh with you into the pressure to Wall Street yet you know from college into the military do they allow therapy dogs and the front lines of Afghanistan and Myla know you. That's the point. That's the point. There is a a babying of the students. There is a babying citizen. Hey, let's get through this. You guys are first class. Let's get through this is why you came to school shine on these exams that that's part of the growth is thriving under pressure.

Not now, check this out and again the many fine millennial's out there that that are solid citizens that are that are mature for their age that are contributing to society. God bless your great examples. God bless you and some of you that are struggling are struggling because the way been raised by overindulgent parents who don't want to ever lose did never want to get a bad grade school hydrant sports leagues were no scores were So you wouldn't have your feelings hurt. It's not surprising if you're lagging and emotional development. But according to so the British a telegraph publication, millennial's do not consider themselves quote grown-up until they are 27 according to a new survey. Yeah, more than 55% said that feel like a fully mature adult depended on reaching particular milestones in life.

According to the survey conducted by nationwide current-account so obviously over the UK just over 15 22% to 2000 of surveyed said that people felt mature when they have their own children where further. A further fifth, 21% said it was when they moved out of their parents home and yet it's increasingly common for young people to live in their parents homes longer and increasingly common to wait to get married, only to have kids. Isn't this then saying we are putting off responsibilities of adult life maturity model Play-Doh to make the field that her plan by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown if saying there's something wrong with transgender blend. We have to make all these crazy changes. Maybe it's time for them to go.

That was the voice of would be Goldberg speaking at the glad media awards.

Glad was originally an acronym for the gay and lesbian alliance against defamation. I changed it to the gay lesbian alliance against disagreement because they really want to censor those with opposing voices and my friend Kelly.

LaBarbera suggested on your yesterday that we could call this the gay lesbian alliance advancing this information and will be Goldberg is is basically laying the line down in terms of hate trans activism. This is right.

This is normal. Those who oppose that no basis for the words is not a matter of hey live and let live is not a matter of you have your opinion of mine is a matter of you don't have the right to your viewpoint because it is bigoted and hateful, this is Michael Brown listening to the line of fire, 866-34-TRUTH. Let's listen to comedy channels. Trevor no war.

Trevor no as he speaking at the same glad media awards in New York on May 6. I'm honestly honored and humbled to the estate because I know like many people I haven't always been the most open-minded of hatches unconditioned. My conditioning growing up in a country and in a world where I was told gay people once people but everyone.

Everyone think a lot of everyone can change everyone can become. You just listen.

It's scary, but is not as scary as the journey most of the people in this room have gone through so we salute you with the daily show. We thank you for allowing us into your world, which suggests our worlds see the thing that troubles me with all this thing that troubles me is that on the one hand the one hand, I appreciate people say, look, there's diversity different. I do has to be gay. I did asked me transgender. This is the way I was created that's that's what they would believe it needs to be more accepting of me and don't condemn me is some terrible center on this being true to who I am like you're being true to who you are being heterosexual.

Whenever I understand that I appreciate that.

I appreciate where they're coming from. Simpson had. I thought being gay.

For years I prayed against it. This is who I am and once I realize there's nothing wrong with this and I can have a healthy relationship with some of the same sex, and we have a wonderful life together. Why would anyone reject to decipher religious bigotry. I understand the viewpoint and the mindset I understand if LGBT activists are simply fighting for it to them was a matter of basic equality, basic human respect and dignity.

I understand from their perspective. The problem I have is that you are not allowed to have another perspective you are not allowed to differ. You are not allowed to say no. According to my faith, homosexual practices wrong or according to my own beliefs a kid should have a mom and a dad or according to my own studies. It's uncertain why some people feel the transgender we should still look to see if there's a way to help them grow out of this. No, no you are not allowed to have a contrary viewpoint. I mentioned a couple weeks ago after giving a talk at a college in North Carolina and it was not in the heart of Charlotte or Raleigh.

One of the bigger cities this a little bit. Maybe an hour out from there's a bit more rural area and I gave a talk on homosexuality is an innate and immutable. They are having a series of different presentations and their than other viewpoints presented up to. Then it was time for my everyone was very respectful, including those who oppose my viewpoint room was very disrespectful. There is nothing disruptive that happened on the campus which I was pleased to see.

I commended them for the respect with which they treated me in the midst of our differences. But what was interesting was at lunch we we sat with the professor there professor of of religion and ethics. This what he teaches. He teaches religion and ethics is also a pastor and he told at the University. He could not say that Jesus opposed homosexual practice. If you scriptural basis for historical basis for his views as a first century Jew. They believe it. If that was his conviction which it is. He said he couldn't say that in his class even while teaching religion and ethics.

He couldn't say a rural North Carolina campus. I asked him to say the opposite if he believed Jesus affirmed homosexuality and he said yes that he could say, but he couldn't say that he posed as is nothing to do with what the Bible says it is nothing to do with religious truth or history of religion or anything like that. It has to do with what's acceptable speech and what isn't acceptable speech and more and more and more were being told that simply differing with LGBT activism is a good reason for us to be silenced and perhaps lose a job reuse income and whatever else might follow from there. There many saying absolutely right bigots like you belong in the closet and this is no different than saying that someone is black is inferior. Some of such Hispanic or Asian is inferior. This is no different. This is no different than the Nazis. Same Jews were were parasites that should be destroyed. This is no different as CC. In other words, if I say, you know, really think it should have a mom and dad and it's best to be joined to their biological mom and dad. If possible you want to set something up intensely from birth that separates them from from from mom and dad when their other choices. It's it's bigoted. It's no different than being a Nazi mean that's how extreme things of God that we know this for years we've documented for years. It's just getting more extreme and you get that when you hear from some of these major media people and and by the way, even though Pres. Trump has not been strong on gay and lesbian issues thus far, if anything, he has been favorable to gays and lesbians in terms of Executive Order that was passed a couple months back, maybe three months back that reaffirm what would prison Obama had done in the federal workplace and in his last Executive Order falling short in that way he's looked at as the ultimate enemy of LGBT people reporting Jeff sessions Atty. Gen. with people like Ben Carson and Mike pence around him so you you you don't even have to be aggressively against to get negatively branded hey friends, we come back.

I am going to speak with Clay Nath is an award-winning journalist and he is a humanist.

He wrote a book called free God now my other writing, so regular talk in a moment believer to humanist and see why we feel how we feel and remind you if you don't get my weekly emails which will tell you all the articles of written all the videos we've put out which a link you this special discounted resources and special testimonies. Sign up today go to asked Dr. Brown a SK DR Brown.orc sign up for the free emails today and I'm to send you a free e-book when you do seven secrets of the real Messiah, I'd sign up today.

Get your free e-book will be right back with Clay Nath. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown. So much for joining us. They on the line of fire. So a couple weeks back I came across an article in the Huffington post written by Clay Farris Nath taking issue with United Methodists church for saying based on the Bible and church teaching. They would not recognize the consecration of a lesbian bishop and Mr. Neff's humanist took them to task for that saying it's wrong for the church use the Bible is a is a moral guiding gave reasons for refill contradictions in the Bible and hypocritical use of the Bible by the church. So I wrote an article response and then tweeted to him and said he would like to come on the radio and discuss it. He said sure thing so I'm delighted to have this opportunity to talk with Clay Farris Nath award-winning journalist and the humanists science and religion correspondent.

He's been a Tokyo correspondent for United press International and a freelance reporter for national public radio, a Clay great to have you on the air with the city. Thanks for joining us, Dr. Michael Brown pleasure to be with you. Thanks for inviting me all might module. You have no idea how nice it is to talk with some of the difference was because most folks don't want to talk I love you run into the same thing that the light of the opportunity so I speak only for myself but I feel delighted to have an opportunity to speak with somebody about differing worldviews. If we can exchange ideas, we can't really embrace each other's humanity. Yeah we we agree on that, sir. So just a couple minutes in this first segment, which is short to find out more about yourself. Did you grow up as humanist or atheist, agnostic reset developed over time. My parents were Christian but they let go of their attachment to religion before I was born so we were nominally Christian, but I grew up without any religion, in particular – perhaps account for my lifelong fascination with it. Got it right.

So what is it that fascinates you with religion as the self-professed humanist will first of all growing up, I felt a bitter envy for my friend. I had Muslim friends, Jewish friends and Christian friends and they all seem to have that activity.

It was meaningful for them and even sometimes fun and I was left out of it. So at that point there was curiosity mixed with little envy but as I became an adult and look more deeply into it I felt fascinated that people in different parts of the world and sometimes even different parts of a particular city have such profoundly different beliefs about the nature of the world we live in, and indeed you feel that any of this is positive or since you don't believe in the creator God as revealed in the Bible is a just believing delusions.

What a very different question. Okay, first of all I think I think religion has been a positive force in human affairs or many millennia.

Although it is also been a time terrible force and I think today it's a mix of both. But I work with religious people every day who are out there doing great, good, and I have immense respect for them and for their belief. I'm not anti-religion per se. What I propose is what I started characterized is what I call old time religion which is really just a label for an authoritarian version that thinks that religion which are when it happens to be is a rule book written by a strict supreme being and often used threaten or punish other people got it right so that that's what will takeoff is that an accurate view of the Bible or historic Jewish Christian faith. We can we can discuss that and you write most Wrigley for the humanist. Is that correct right.and fruit for my listeners that may not be familiar with humanist. What is that publication free magazine of the American humanist Association and humanist have a long tradition.

Some of it… But today nearly all secular auto. Generally, people do not write anything secular religion that embraces the principle about loving one another and acting. I greatly we've got a lot to talk about delighted to have him playing her staff on the line with your again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends us on the line of fire and speak with Clay Farris that many journalists in the humanists science and religion correspondent where having a discussion of debate with having a discussion about what we believe what we don't believe and why. So Clay help me just understand some things from your perspective all right and I'm sure these are questions you thought about work through over and over again, but with most my listeners being believers being theists believe in the God of the Bible.

I want to just tease some things out with you. Your view of the origin of the universe. When you stand on that I'm a complete agnostic about the origin of the universe to deep and fascinating mystery.

There is one thing I frankly don't believe that I don't believe any of the theistic account.

Origin of the universe and I need to define what I mean by that traditional theism is that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing and all loving God who created the world. Seems to me that the world contradicts that assertion. So I think there universe may have been intentionally created. It may even have been lovingly created but I don't think it could have been created by an all-powerful, all-knowing, supreme being.

So the old Epicurean trilemma.

There aren't so jet limit since you brought that up when we just dive in there with you for a moment or would you agree that often things that we passed through that seem to be the worst thing that ever happened can end up being the best thing that ever happened to us on occasion next are on occasion that that sometimes there that that going through pain or hardship helps us become a better human being or enables us to help other people, so we may experience a loss. But something good can come out of that. Would you accept that yes, of course, but I also accept it. Needless suffering in the world. Okay fruit from our perspective, no question. From our perspective. Right now they be starving to death that starts to death while were doing a radio show yes and starve to death for no reason. It it in yeah it.

In other words, the overall scheme of the world does not seem to be impacted for the for the good. My question is though as limited as we are in our own knowledge. Could it be that in all loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God created universe, knowing that the final outcome would be such that it would be worth and value of human beings would say it was ousted. Is that a possibility once you it doesn't seem like logical inference to me. If there is a supreme being than that being need not put anybody through suffering the "E could have just skipped the end of the story and let everybody the angel there so neither can create imperfect beings in order to get the perfect eyesight.

From our perspective correct, however, are prospectively only when we got right right so but our perspective also tells us that freedom of choice is important. Would you agree with that and another is if if you could right now we could zap you and sat me and we become lobotomized, but totally happy.

We can't make any choices we have, but were happy would you like that really instant question. I I wouldn't choose battle part, but it that way.

I mean, by definition, I would be happy if I written that update but I thought I happiness I would shoot yet. So from my perspective anything again to just exchange these ideas and and not now, not on hundred Gateway okay guy didn't just want to be sure because everyone I think your meter just to say this that my understanding is that obviously we prize our existence. Otherwise to be much more suicide because we are we prize our existence and we prize our rights. It have self-determination, freedom, and that, as I understand that if God was going to create a world in which we would have freedom of choice and we would have existence then there be consequences. But that something good could come out of it that that love is not to be coerce our love for God is going to be something freely chosen versus coerced. Hence I see a universe that could have all kinds of pain, suffering, difficulty many of these things devolving from choices we made within in the end something good and wonderful coming out of it beautiful forever.

I understand your perspective and I will be the first to say that I don't know what the world is all about. But every humanist.

I tried to understand it through reasons refined through evidence and evidence doesn't suggest to me that this world is that up on a course toward her beautiful ending that you describe under some sort of plan instead suffering seems to be very random.

Lightning strikes more golfers than terrible people earthquake destroyed people at random Nami.

There just doesn't seem to be any moral sense to much of the suffering in the world and that doesn't give me any confidence in the scenario you described.


So from the purely scientific viewpoint. There are questions that you have which leaves open the possibility of an intelligent creator, just not the God of the Bible right so that site right so say the origin of the universe. The origin of life, the presence of DNA. Things like that that the fine-tuning of the University of the fact is Einstein said that that we can comprehend it itself you know. It seems to operate based on mathematical laws and principles so the scientific and leaves you open to the possibility of intelligent creator, but this that the apparently random nature of human suffering and pain leaves you closed to the idea of the biblical creator I think a fair summary okay so and not just the biblical creator, but every creation story I've encountered so far there are many) and I'm sure you would agree that if you going compare, say, the Babylonian creation account to Genesis 1, you have quite quite a difference there between them but but either way I appreciate the broader statement so that's where the faith relationship part would come in.

In other words based on scientific evidence. I too would agree that there is evidence to be very strong evidence compelling evidence for intelligent creator for you possible evidence, but on the suffering and just have experienced the love of God, because I've seen my own life transformed in the lives of so many others transformed and I've seen God's help for people in the midst of incredible suffering and hardship makes it easy for me to believe the rest that make sense to you know I don't share your view.

I think I understand that what I have been God working in the world is the force of an idea within people that I give them inspiration and hope. And maybe more power to achieve things than they'd expected, but for me that the psychological phenomena very useful and at times, but unfortunately also one that turned terrible peaked at time though there's no question that horrible things have been done in the name of religion and is no question but probably more people are being fed and clothed and help right now in the name of religion. So we we understand, in and of itself that that's I can be the compelling proof and have you ever heard accounts for which she you had no logical answer that you couldn't just attribute to a positive human factor within someone I don't know what you have in mind, but I think are probably characters certainly open question about why something happened and you know there! That may not be satisfactory for something to me that that's interesting. I don't need to have a close case for every ministry and life. To be convinced that the scientific narrative does a pretty good job of describing the world around us started and and I and I appreciate that.

I appreciate your tone Sir for sure on Austin. There is extreme hostility the way we often describe some of the new atheists writing, summing it up as there is no God. And I hate him so well. They are people who have gone through a difficult process to get to an atheist worldview often have very strong feelings that I I don't have to share. And because I didn't experience that right. And it's interesting you put experience in there because it does that shape us, and in many ways I've talked to people who this through their upbringing were disappointed lack of a father or lack of prayers being answered. And they became atheists and then later they got to scientific discussion, but a lot of the 80s and came out of an experience where was God, but I needed him. Why was the church there to help me because people yeah so so that you will come back on.

On the other side of the break on this I give you two examples. One is when someone is being operated on say and during the search. After the surgery. They describe what family was wearing in the waiting room or a shoe that was on top of the roof of the hospital. What the doctors were discussing those kind of things that point to the evidence of the soul and then safer for several folks, like I work with in India for an initial part of who was an atheist alcoholic basically involved in terrorist activity, hostility, notion of God and had a vision of Jesus… Is transformed in his finest humanitarian service and find that is to be attributed to psychology.

I will be right back with Clay first met in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown having a friendly dialogue with humanist journalist Clay Farris half science and religion correspondent for the humanist were talking about belief in God believe in the God of the Bible reasons why it makes sense and doesn't make sense were having a friendly discussion rather than a debate.

So Clay, the question of human consciousness from what we understand we have a self-awareness.

That's different than say a dog or cat would have ended there are folks who have described FX sciences who became curious of this, where there are documented cases of someone during surgery with a said my my spirit left my body and I saw the doctors talking in a panic that this one point in the this one machine in their fixing dials on it and then I saw my family out the waiting room and they were crying and my wife was wearing a dress of this choleric and all the things get verified and again it just points to something beyond humanity or beyond just psychology and enough of these accounts been documented that it seems to be evidence of these for some that something's going on. So how do you respond to evidence like that. While I don't see that in the same way. I don't think it adds up to a really conclusive case and I think the general findings that science has made over the last century and 1/2 roughly make it very problematic about what we know about being now is that it reflected photons hitting the retinas of our eyes and turning into electrochemical signals that our brain interprets so if there is a spirit of full how does it intercept the quota but it's not material, by definition, the what's going on there. If we imagine that there something like. That interacts with photons, then there should be a shadow on the wall where the soul is because the photons are getting through the it doesn't really make that he described the story that way that it makes sense to describe it as a hallucination or a reformulated memory more likely it would be interesting if we wanted to run an experiment on the if we got a bunch of cooperating surgeon to put a code word on the feeling of the operating room after the end of the finished work and then remove it before the patient recovered and asked the patient could read off that code word then be pretty interesting. Evidence we have to remember one other thing and that is that in a world of close to 7 billion people going to consider that to happen a lot.

Everybody has hundreds of experiences every day millions of people means that there's going to be some weird stuff that happened just by going and that's going to be shared with other people because we are either with slits. Interestingly, we have a saying when I pray coincidences happen because it isn't. It is interesting how one particular night I might feel deeply prompted to pray about a particular thing or person quite out of the blue and then have this deep sense that tomorrow going to hear from the person I haven't heard from in three years enough.

The next day they call and the very moment I was praying they were going through something at the very thing was praying for those things happen enough that to me.

I'd I have to be unscientific in my approach to just attribute them to coincidence and Dr. Brown, Utah.

So if you're going to be scientific about you have to record every single time that you do it because there's something called confirmation bias. Of course you remember the times that you prayed for somebody to call you and they did, but can you remember the one when you prayed and I didn't much less likely to stick in memory. I will actually lots of folks keep their journals and they can dock they can document things yeah I I remember the things that didn't have but it's the rarest of rare times that I have a deep deep deep sense that I believe God is speaking or leaving a certain way were rarest of rare times when it doesn't come to pass like that that maybe once or twice in a year that that that I feel it the same with my wife. So again it's it's an interesting thing that we talk about the reality of experience and I'm no scientist so I am actually not a scientist. My PhD is an ancient Semitic languages and I am not a scientist, but I would guess though that every time I the spirit/soul that were talking about something of a different realm and therefore you wouldn't see a shadow but you are what you are saying is that you're willing to look at scientific evidence and evaluated as rational as possible with with a healthy skepticism exactly right, which which I can I can accept and then look erratic Iran mean some say we need a hermeneutic of suspicion and and trust me when I hear stories. To this day someone writing me and tell me about a miraculous healing.

I said that's wonderful. But before I reported less and less as a close friend or family member. We practicing for years together and and the doctors themselves are looking. There is a this is a miracle which was it's America, but otherwise I always check. Is it accurate. Is there another explanation so I'm I'm with you on that.

But is this. We got two minutes and then I appreciate you willing to stay on an incident into the next hour you you are in your approach in your tone is irenic a person as I've talked to, and you got married this voracious nonhostile you know of amicable intone so what is your mind. And I have to say the same of you will thank you sir I appreciate that what you wrote so in the Huffington Post gave me a different feel. Now perhaps is just words on a page. It makes me angry when somebody. Doing nothing that bothered anybody else any harm that I can lose it out.

I'm sorry I interrupted you got no no no no that's I wanted to understand the why behind that because it it if you have a religious set of beliefs and these are sacred to you and people say my life is been helped immensely. Here I was shooting heroin at the age of 15 radically converted the age of 16 I wanted nothing to do with God. I didn't believe in Jesus embrace Jewish and I was hostile. I don't think I would live to be 18. The way I was living my life radically transform. We have missionaries graduated from a school doing humanitarian work amazing work helping or hurting the poor around the world. A lot of goods come out of it. I would've thought that your part. Based on our conversation today was that your perspective was hey, if according to religious beliefs, homosexual practices wrong. We understand that but I for I strongly differ as opposed to almost attacking those beliefs will like and what I was trying to convey that I think religious people of every kind.

Take both skeptical look at their Scripture.

I think Scripture can be in firing and very do a lot of good in the world but I think when they are read as both the law and regulation.

I think they do a lot of harm in the world because there snapshot from an ancient time and they don't function well and are society today. Got to take what we come back let's let's pick up on that is the Bible a snapshot from an ancient time. That doesn't function well today in terms of moral guidelines, not my guess. Clay fashion African continue to speak the other side of Lake my latest articles and videos. Good asked Dr. Brown.Ward. I'm about to have a fascinating dialogue with you.

Minutes jointly right here on the line of fire stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown is the Bible outdated. It is it a human production with ancient laws tradition, some of which are inspiring, some of which are destructive should be look at it is a mix perhaps of sharia law, lofty idealism was it God's infallible or inerrant word do we air in our lives by following what is written in the Scriptures, or by ignoring what is written in the Scriptures, Clay Ferris Nath award-winning journalist the science and religion correspondent with the humanist. He is the editor of numerous books including free God now, and we exchanged articles. He wrote an article in the Huffington Post, explaining why he felt it was very wrong for the United Methodist Church to use the Bible as a moral guideline. I responded to his article, and then reached out to him and said let's dialogue and he said he'd be delighted to do so. Clay, let's let's talk about for a moment your book free God now free God from what who is supposed to free God and from what from ideology because great harm in the world that my message and I think religion is a natural part of human experience. Although clearly a few of us that we live with it, but the way that it can be used can be benign in society. Or it can be quite harmful and I think it's really a matter of what people decide to do it. Religion you have to moment ago whether the Bible is the literal word of God. People should follow, or whether they should use their own interpretation of it suggests that pretty much everybody interpret Scripture in ways that work for them or else they take somebody else's work for. I think it much impossible to follow anybody Scripture Word for Word without interpretation right law office interpreting is important you write an article I read an article we interpret what we each say and yet we certainly mean things we have to probe each other. Sometimes what you mean when you said the husband and wife have to do the same. I've no problem with interpreting in terms of seeking to understand what the author or authors intended. But ultimately, how how do we decide what's good and what's bad based on what standards is humanist, how you work that out. Great question. It human beings have oral and and this is quite evident because whether the overexposed one religion or another throughout history that people converge on very similar kind of moral practices and Throughout the world, but both are far from sufficient to build a good society so that we have to use our capacity for reason for compassion.

We have used the information that we get that make new and really mutually beneficial and compassionate role sells the Bible is a great start for many people, but it has mishmash of rules, some of which have nothing to do it like today, others switching for the at odds with our moral today and from which I think we all want to embrace. I will detail you come back again asked in science tell us what is compassionate and moral or not. If we have a certain shared moral conscience, from whence did that come and I will literally challenge Mr. Nath in terms of his views about the Bible all coming away right here on the line of fire in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown discussion, debate with humanist, writer humanist, journalist, seismologist correspondent Clay Ferris Nath, the Bible and belief in God. So Clay let's let's go back to it to a couple of fundamental things a strict naturalist Darwinian evolutionist would believe that that we are freak accidents that we are the random end product of an unguided evolutionary process representing the survival of the fittest that we are basically our brains are neurons firing nets and there is no little bad, right or wrong and you're talking about right and wrong. Your timeout science and compassion in the same breath, so I don't know how those things mesh actually process that gives rise to their complexity and variety of life.

Evolution also gives rise to individual interests and in a social species like that place out in the development of moral and we need each other and we compete with each other and there have to be rules for how we do all of and evolution gives rise to those in then to some extent some other species, but certainly much greater extent than selling landing humanoids that were able to elaborate on those to get past our strict evolutionary legacy and develop actual ideas and exchange them but it's survival of the fittest. Ultimately that's in evolutionary terms, doesn't mean like strongest or best picture simply mean whatever group of gene get them to get the most copied of himself into the next generation and that sort of mechanical process that wife ride on top of it since it's coming from this angle there that those in the mouth.

Susie and camp and that this was something that Margaret Sanger believed in said that that world population is going to continue to grow and that ultimately human beings by the multiplied millions will die. The most horrific death still starve to death in the human suffering will be unimaginable she have to call the population. Somehow, for the good of the human race. And so for example if you have lots of poor, uneducated people living together in in closely knit circles in close quarters and things like that. If there's a plague that breaks out. Don't try to stop it because that's actually calling the race better that they dive a plague and and that the population is called rather than have this catastrophe and this is in the name of good. I started Sanger ever said anything like that but I do notice the fact that that help most of human history went until fairly recent times there something called a Malthusian trap and you can be a graph over time, the population and wealth every time Guelph began to build and people are able to have more children. Then they'd overshoot the mark and famine. With that in order occasionally plagues in the population would drop right so that only the last couple centuries of populations exploded. Margaret Sanger embrace it in terms of abortion.

That's the solution and that's what you get rid of some of the human weeds.

Some of the ones that are less productive in society are that are going to be more takers than givers. My point is, if it's for the overall good of the human race based on an evolutionary survival of the fittest model what is morally wrong with that. To me it's morally objectionable because every human being is created an image of God and therefore is is worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their appearance or their handicap or lack of productivity from the woman. ~The oldest days but want why not call the race what's what's wrong about that morally well.

I think the only place where we may disagree and what you're saying is first quarter. Margaret Sanger actually advocated use. I don't know that. But more important, what is a human being. I think if I'm hearing you right you think that one fertilized embryo in embryo I'm sorry.

Once an egg is fertilized, that if a human being out I don't get that way I don't think the evidence mounts that delete personhood important concept at the beginning of life and at the end of life.

But that again okay my point. So is it and just check out your research on Margaret Sanger and Thomas Malthus went on sale sign not is not controversial in that regard, it's pretty is first time since pretty well known that she embraced his his Florida family eugenicist. Adopted ugly views and then the youth spun out of control and I utterly reject eugenics practice and put it on other people like that but you do you see that the thing I'm I'm pressing here is that you're not doing it entirely on a scientific basis you're doing it on an independent moral basis right time to give us information that we can act on. But it's not a moral system itself.

Okay for discovering reliable patterns in the world right.

Social science can tell you if a particular cord is is discordant, but he can't tell you if if it sounds good or bad science can tell you that the sunset has these various colors and is caused by various phenomena, but he can't tell if it's a beautiful sunset correct that's true, but I have some interesting things to say about beauty, but let's save that for another Okay if I start going to correct the scientific tool that give the useful knowledge but it in itself is not a moral right so so here, let's let's go back to the morality issue because what I'm pressing for is obviously were created in the image of God and that even even putting aside the baby in the womb for the moment okay yet. Yes, we differ on that. Of course I see personhood when I look at her and an ultrasound of the 4D in the baby's cooking, kicking in the womb and the parents of named it and I absolutely personhood and then so many premature babies that are surviving outside of the womb that keeps pushing the debate back but let let's look at it from it different point of view I was reading a book by an Indian scholar and he talked about the village they were helping out in the poorest of the probe into India 24 Street Anderson, since it is shocking to me as it is a Westerner. I so poorest of the poor. There is a village and there's a little baby girl starving to death and they keep trying to get the parents to care for the baby and they seem indifferent so they they they actually get an injunction from the local government to take the baby out for care and a payment bring the baby to a hospital is rehabilitated, they bring it into their home and the babies that healthy strong two years old, vibrant, full of life.

They give it back to the mother, thinking she's gonna be so happy that the baby's healthy, the cycle repeats itself over start with that rehabilitated the second time third time starts to death. What they found out was that this family poorest of the poor. They already have a girl there and have a daughter now she can help with the chores and 1/2 with the other children.

They didn't need another child so they had to calculate if she eats, then someone else doesn't eat, so someone has to die. She's the youngest, the least necessary count. I do have a moral problem with that later. But I also have compassion.

Yes, people who are in terrible straight do something to make incredibly difficult and I think it's morally wrong. Sacrifice a child for to get interested family because like you I think every individual as feeling dignity and worth. But I also have tremendous compassion for people who have to face such a joy.

Yes, agreed. I could not imagine that in the last thing I would do is just in a cavalier way condemned the parents.

Obviously I say it's morally wrong but it's fascinating that we agree that's morally wrong against certainly the parents are more thinking of in the lines of Darwinian evolution in your thinking more of the lines of a theist just in my humble opinion I'm thinking a human, but science informs my thinking, but it doesn't rule my thinking or my views or anybody's. I hope you know if we take any ideology, including five turned into an ideology called scientism. Any thing that is taken into an extreme ideology often has terrific results.

We can't stray too far from our basic compassion for one another without bad things happening yet. Hey, I II agree with you on that line absolutely and eyesight had a feeling you might say I think that you and I may have different worldviews, but I suspect we see the world and feel about the world in similar way yeah actually so will come back with… One last segments are, and will focus very specifically on the Bible and some of the moral imperatives on the Bible for good or for big him when I have a debate friends were having a friendly salad and hopefully this is proof that you consider someone with a fundamentally different worldviews.

It is have a friendly conversation. Actually learn from each other in the process. In the midst of your disagreements will be right that her plan and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown ramp minutes will grab the entire audio and put it up separately for you for you to listen to.

If you missed any part of our interaction get if you just tuning in clay math is the science and religion correspondent for the humanist, so platelets let's focus specifically on on the Bible, in my view most of the Bible holistically, meaning that we would say understand the Old Testament in light of the full revelation of Jesus in the New Testament. So for example in in Old Testament law. If it is an Israelite was sending a particular way. There might've been a death penalty under that theocracy was in the New Testament, there might be excommunication from the church and with an adulterer in ancient Israel been put to death today and adulterer in the church if they if they will repent of their adultery would be disfellowshipped. Let let's just say that there's a holistic way I'm reading the Scripture.

I'm not going to say that we should if my neighbor next door is a Canaanites were supposed exterminate that person. I regular soda so that the point is that I found over 45 years now of of following Jesus incredible wisdom in Scripture, then it goes beyond my understanding that when I live by its moral imperatives line set husbands, love their wives and wives respect and honor their husbands when parents raise their children.

Certainly when children honor their parents. Certainly I see healthy family. For example, recent studies indicating that cohabiting couples have a 50 to 80% higher likelihood of divorce. The non-cohabiting couples or or if you live by the wisdom of Proverbs you document die of a sexually transmitted disease of alcoholism or things that that the God's ways are ways of life and goodness, and that from a scriptural viewpoint and a practical viewpoint. I see it best for man and woman to be together see that that's where physically created for that it's best for kids to be joined with the mother and father and that you feel the when I'm using the Bible and that way it's somehow unwise or potentially destructive. What I think I know that the Bible can be a great inspiration for Gerd. As I said earlier I work with people every day to go out in the world and do a lot of good for others and are inspired by the Bible to do that.

I think the problem comes when you look at it is a comprehensive rulebook that doesn't require anything more than looking up a particular chapter and verse.

If the Bible were all book of laws the least. You'd expect that it would be clear and comprehensive and applied everybody fairly and it does not. It got laws that are very specific to one sign in place.

It doesn't address things like driving while texting. It doesn't tell us whether anesthesia is good or whether that would best the suffering that we experience without it is necessary for some greater good and it didn't get out much of humanity for hundreds and hundreds of year so regarding it as the logbook makes no sense to me and it inflicts a lot of misery in our contemporary world on silk so let's press in on that something can be true even if it didn't reach the whole world correct yes, but it can't be fair and you'd expect fairness from supreme being giving out rules for everybody lives by right so we would understand is that those who have the rules more accountable than those who don't have the rules so that that's the first thing. In other words, those within a family that understand the family structure and guidelines have more expected of them than the neighbor whose is being raised by absentee parents.

So in terms of fairness. That said, we look at and we also look at it not just as a rulebook of all book. But as ways of life that God made us and designed us and he knows what's best for us.

But let's agree that the Bible does not explicitly address the issue of say anesthesia okay right, which is not explicitly address the issue of a child born with ambiguous genitalia and and defective chromosome executor to classify that individual. I made it made in passing bullet. Let let's let's agree with that but now, when when the Scripture say don't commit adultery is that any less clear word says don't don't murder. Don't steal is that any less clear because it doesn't address anesthesia will be adultery. I think pretty straightforward pretty clear murder was rendered, do not kill for a long time, which led to lots of disagreement over capital punishment and various other issues in the point it.

If God wanted to communicate that rule to everybody. God capable of doing that he couldn't communicated and continue to communicate with everybody in the world. The idea that he bet it all down in a book in one place really isn't very persuasive. While we did agree that there are certain universal things written in our hearts correct. Yes, indicate so in that sense he did put morality and consciousness and conscience within every human being. And then he works with us and through us were his coworkers. According to Scripture, so he now gives us a message to spread to the world, but it's not familiar rulebook it.

It's a message of how to come into right relationship with God. Yes, he is God. So we are here to serve him and live for him, but we believe is when we go out with that message about forgiveness of sins through Jesus is done on the cross in here so you can know God is your father we come to know him and love him and yes he's gone. So we are here to serve him in that respect. And we find great guidelines for living as well but is primarily a rubric in any case, we share the responsibility of spreading this message to the rest of the world and that's what we say or do.

I understand that and I suggest that we all have a responsibility think through what's right and wrong in terms of what we know because let's face it everybody ignore a lot of the rules the Bible.

I assume by.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that you don't worry about whether clothing is of mixed residents on you mentioned a moment ago that the New Testament provides new ways of dealing with something so you're presumably not taking too seriously the verse in which Jesus said, not a jot nor a tittle of the law is changed and I wholeheartedly agree with you that should not be a reason to adopt what a gift in modern life. There are other Christians who do writer Christian who think we should reinstall the death penalty for just about every transgression of the Bible may yes and and I by the way I do take Jesus was very serious in Matthew 519 to 20, but I believe that he saying the law will set a purpose. In other words the dog he lost Israel certain laws to keep them separate from the nations like dietary laws and mixed garments and other things.

He gave based on universal moral prohibitions. And you're right. King James did not accurately translate low church saw the date they translated it is as do not kill was with SLI children should be murder.

Of course it's been translated properly and people with the originals well but all that's to say were at a time. Perhaps we can contain either conversation another day you give me an hour of your time, which I really appreciate. I know how busy you are, but hopefully you don't mind if some of our listeners will be praying for you on a regular basis I take it as benign and I thank you very much for getting this time to talk with you and a pleasure. It's been a pleasure and they the God you don't believe in, make himself real to thank you so much. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I was, not our days ago. He is a short topping wrapper and he is calling the churches of America to account for not preaching enough on divine judgment, saying that messages and what's being put forth in our churches there lacking.

They may talk about hope.

They may talk about someone season is approaching your breakthrough is near. They don't adequately talk about God as quoted jealous God of discipline and obedience. Is he right many cases I say the answer is yes welcome friends to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown and here's number to call 866-34-TRUTH. It's 866-34-TRUTH 87884. You don't have to tell me which church you go to. You don't have to tell me what denomination you're part of, but in your circles the church you attend the Bible study you attend. Do you feel that you are getting a balanced message of both the love of God and the fear of God. Do you feel that there is adequate talk about coming judgment.

Would you feel that you are just getting exposed to a lot of positive positive positive positive positive more of a self-help message 866-34-TRUTH if you watch Christian TV, listen to Christian radio is a different on radio supposed to TV what are you hearing or hearing messages that stir you that move you to action, not just that encourage you, have you left the church service or set them after listening to or watching a broadcasting you're literally shaking on the inside because real is oh my God, there's a coming judgment. Even if you knew you know yourself. You're suturing the Lord had have you been stirred to weep for lost and dying world that is hell bound without the Savior. It is, is there anything that would cause someone visiting your church to revere God to realize that he's not just like the man upstairs never hear someone getting an award winning some of Benton and want to thank the man upstairs. It's almost the guarantee that they don't know the Lord is when you know the Lord, you know, just call him the man upstairs 866-34-TRUTH 87884 Kendrick l'Amour said this once a local church some time ago and it appalled me that the same program was in practice a program that I seen as a kid. The few times I was in service. Praise dance worship which is beautiful pastor spewing the idea of someone season is approaching the idea of hope is that after being heavily in my studies these past few years. I finally figured out why I left those services feeling spiritually unsatisfied as a child I discovered more truth but simple truth. Our God is a loving God. This is a merciful God, yes, but is even more so of the God of discipline and obedience, a jealous God, you know, in Romans 1122 Paul urged us to consider both the goodness and severity of God and Kendrick l'Amour Roche. So in conclusion, I feel it's my calling to share the joy of God, but with exclamation more so the fear of God. The balance nor the power and what he can build and also we can destroy at any given moment. Now it's fascinating was fascinating as Kendrick l'Amour says he's a believer in Jesus and apparently he has black Hebrew Israelite connections.

Yeah, family. That is, into the black Hebrew Israelite message and that apparently has influenced some of his thinking as well to read my latest article, the secular rapper calls American past account, go to ask Dr. it's my latest article, check it out right back on file. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown one hour interview with science correspondent religion and science correspondent ready for the humanist really great. One hour conversation die will take some calls on that that was leading right up to this time joining all of you on the air now many stations that join us for the last 30 minutes of the broadcast, 86634 before I go to the phones in my article secular rapper calls American pastors to account I quote from my forthcoming book September of this year, due out really excited about it just had a great talk with the marketing team about the book and so excited to get this out to all of you in America and around the world is called saving a sick America prescription for moral and cultural reformation, and one of my favorite chapters in the book to Reisch was the chapter called restoring thunder to our pulpits, restoring thunder to our pulpits and in that chapter I wrote these words. But the truth be told, the three little thunder from our pulpits were little preaching that creates an atmosphere of holy reverence with the Bible calls the fear the Lord bring little challenges us and confronts us and stirs us and awakens us very little that equips us to endure hardship or to be courageous or to confront the culture to live a sacrificial life out of love for our neighbor. Whenever leaders preach a toothless peptalk gospel that fits in perfectly with our convenience store quickfix Christianity primacy all kinds of benefits without any requirements. What a deal could refuse it. No wonder we are producing consumers rather than disciples. What else can we expect when we so studiously bypass the cross and so much of her preaching risk we expect we preach God the genie rather than God, the judge is it is it not the truth. In terms of the messages that come from so many of our pulpits across America and Charles Finney said this in 1873 sermon and I affirm these words and I quoted at the beginning of my chapter restoring thunder to our pulpits. In my new book coming out September, saving a sick America prescription for moral and cultural reformation. Finney said this brethren are preaching will bear its legitimate fruits.

If immorality prevails in the land. The fault is ours and a great degree. There is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for. If the public press lacks moral discrimination, the pulpit is responsible for. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for. If the world loses its interest in religion, the pulpit is responsible for. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for. If our politics become so corrupt that the very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for this is not Lititz not ignore this fact, my dear brother the litter sleigh at the heart be thoroughly awake to our responsibility in respect to the morals of this nation.

Sosa, Charles Finney in 1873 and yes the pulpit was more influential in his day than ours but I believe that what he said remains largely true if America's and serious moral and spiritual decline. Many of our preachers are partly to blame. So I say it is time that we restore thunder to our pulpits, 866-348-7884 a, let's go to Ernest in Charlotte North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you sir and it will be evident today. Thank you adolescence to interfere with you hundred.

Earthly or online report on how young, subnet, understood Jim was staying. But if I could understood what I understood. I think they conservation all you get a book. I'll freak out and if I still date of the belief of God and, God defiled about Freesia yet.

I that's a legitimate question what he saying what he saying is okay, maybe there is a God, but he's not the God of your holy books and you need to free them, so he's not an atheist in the strict sense Senate there cannot be a God or they cannot be an intelligent designer, but he saying that if that being exists. It's not the God of the Bible obviously right Cesar Hudson wrong on that. But yet it can sound contradictory if there is no God but God. He freeing but that's the way I understand it, that there could be this this divine being, but he's not who you think he is so don't don't restrict them with your antiquated beliefs okay go a note.

Thanks for making the audit and out well and an electric out of the Q accident Friday at home. My God picking a lot. Our Annapolis book the letter were talking widely about wherever it golf family life of prayer, not an out unit and one thing I have to ask you let them know what to write that. What about how adult he plotted fogged brain. What part of the body. Physical body are your on oh, definitely. If you have a God of their data inherently undertaken. Also, there will be a light at the back and document the end and everything and physically thousands of years ago.

Everything they had calming the reality he called and if we now need not that I don't get it.

How he was there. There are not. It is not as models that the work product that right yeah yeah just you just just jump in and of the fact that Jesus said to be earthquakes and things like that that that would not address his moral question of how could a good god create a world in which you have a parent. Needless suffering. So it in and that respects her eye.

I would, I would say that would not matter and he said when you've got prophecies akin to passes it didn't come to pass, but scientific evidence.

To me it is scientific if you say this person was in a coma in their room and get her conversations of people in the car driving up to see him have that happen we start to document some of the details then it becomes. Yeah, you can't just say this is coincidence or projection.

How did that happen and I was actually reading a book by scientist and this is part of what began to push him to first, the recognition that there is a human soul that there's something just beyond the function of the brain and the body and then that was part of what led him ultimately believe in the existence of agape artist. Thank you for calling appreciated 86634 true, what about preaching on the truth of God the holiness of God. The judgment of God the justice of God do we do it enough from our pulpits go to Plano, Texas Tracy, welcome to the line of fire. Hi Dr. Brown, L. Now I think that we hear about dear Lord and I believe that it was something that Laura brought to my attention. For that reason. Start I recognizing that they are the lack back in the church until I started doing research on it and that started speaking out book and there really are not looking at map ticket on YouTube.

I break Pete but not the and Neville.and. And so it led me to thinking up a scripted Apple back. I went through three talk about it. But that and that third birthday.

What really struck me down the beer, clocked out at that that that the light in the spirit of the Lord and chapter 25 of about the man that God wanted. There you know.

Great for correcting victory that revealed but I believe that it only when trust you went out.

Yes, that kind of honor and reverential fear not bear man that why you not know that there is not a map you not the revelation. Parenting that he what you know and it lacked power and not coming for like could be your hundred percent right on all accounts.

John, the viewer has preached on the fields Lord, often over the years there other leaders who have but often few and far between, and were not talking about servile fear. You are very careful to say reverential fear of servile fear is is what leaves will become to know the Lord and his love servile fear is what someone goes through that has a totally double minded, fickle, violent employer and they don't know if the president scream and yell at them or throw things at them from one day to the next or child of a drunken father is that the data gonna strike them or hug them. They don't know know know we don't beckon to fear, but we have a reverential fear because we realize who God is, realizes holy standards and yes the secret of the Lord meeting that the inner counsel those things that he shares with those close that is with those who fear him.

There's a reverential fear that is healthy and life-giving and in full harmony with the love of God and is sadly lacking in the church today and certainly in the culture as a whole plan and by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown join his friends in Myles Chung reporting on the sixth. Fury over one-to-one protein bar promotion that's cold insensitive to fat people now say world will be a natural fit for partnership with a fitness product. The producers of the upcoming female at superhero film have teamed up with think sin fitness brand delivers protein bars with mixes and assortment of other products geared towards fitness buffs. After all, wonder woman is the epitome of feminine strength. The promotion came after the movies producers at Warner Bros. were accused of underselling the film which prompted accusations of misogyny from feminist critics. Unfortunately, he writes we don't live in a sane world, and social justice work is keen on spreading the misguided belief that you can be healthy at every size is really conniption over the promotion issue fat positivity is that the source of their complaints. Complaining about advertising with wonder woman sinks sand, fitness, protein bars and smoothie mixes and other products. This is offensive to fat people. This is sensitive to fat people at every body can be healthy. Every size not true, not true if your 400 pounds overweight. You're not healthy you're not healthy. If you're obese. Over time you will hundred pounds every 50 pounds over over time. If you're obese, you will have many health related problems as good of samosas. Hey can we help you get more fit. I know it's tough sometimes really hard to lose weight but can we help you and encourage you. That's now's not fat. Positivity skews me like this. There we go. All right, let's go to Rock Hill, North Carolina Steve, welcome to light a fire. There is a bet on the line.

I think you said Rocco I encountered a Facebook group called the freethinking Hill and the price you like. There's a lot administered in it it it our job to rethink yell and whether God is that hateful annihilation could be true. You know it our job to rethink yell or is it our job to preach and preach help our our job is to preach what Scripture says Steve but I have no problem with people re-examining what Scripture says the Lord's. I just want to preach God's word says I don't want to go beyond it. I want to hold back from what it's saying I would say are being big problem or our big problem today is failing to preach what is written is failing to preach up to what the word of God says for sure. However, I'm all for re-examining does the Bible speak of eternal conscious torment is that the best way to understand Matthew 25, 46, it speaks of eternal punishment are passages in Revelation 14 and 20, which speak of torment going on forever and ever.

Does the Bible speak of the final destruction of the wicked, the wicked perishing John 316. Matthew 1028 God destroy both body and soul in hell.

Is there some type of annihilation. I have no problem with Christians studying the issue of fresh know what you believe and know why you believe it so I am all for that. No problem what so ever out with people studying the Scriptures are fresh and inheres. Here's what I would say to those who want to rethink how to those who want to work out does the Bible speak of conscious eternal torment is the Bible speak of final destruction. Here's what I encourage and by the way, if you go to my digital library and our website light a Just search on the digital library. The question of hell and eternal punishment.

Right. So go to the line of and just to see search type in the question of hell and eternal punishment. I speak with Edward fudge woman author of the book, the fire that consumes, here's what I encourage you must take hold of the reality of what Scripture says in a very strong and certain way so that it shakes you what ever is coming, be it eternal conscious torment for those who argue that there is a final destruction of the wicked.

It is absolutely dreadful.

It is irreversible and it is of eternal consequence and repeat those three things were ever you come down in terms of your final analysis of what Scripture says what Jesus speaks about repeatedly with other biblical authors old and New Testament speak about repeatedly. The final coming judgment. It is one absolutely dreadful to irreversible, and three of eternal consequence meaning meaning that you are talking about something that will last forever and ever. If someone is destroyed and cut off in the presence of God or someone is conscious of being tormented were talking of something of eternal consequence there is irreversible and is dreadful and should drive us to our knees and drive us out to share the good news along with our great love for people and wanting them to come into the knowledge of God. So Steve wants a book should be written on this lots of discussion. Much of it I believe is based on humanistic thinking, much of it I believe is based on our distance from the God of the Bible in the Bible of our God. Some of it is based on a fair reassessment of what Scripture says I'm all for examining it and debating it but let me say it again, what ever our conclusion. If we can be true to Scripture, it should drive us to our knees with a burden for the lost. If you give us further incentive to share the good news. I had people call and say I don't believe in eternal punishment anymore, but now I can share the gospel much more freely because it overcomes a big objection and I want people coming judgment and others of thought, but why bother warning ministers on eternal conscious torment understanding of these different reactions. The question is what does Scripture say repeat the fate of the lost is dreadful is irreversible and it is of eternal consequence that is pretty heavy stuff. Hey friends at a time. I wish I could get to more of your calls but when I do my best to answer as clearly as I can remember to go to the website light a check out my latest articles and videos there and if you haven't signed up yet to get my free e-book will send it out you immediately seven secrets of the real Messiah this when you go to my website and sign up for email list That book is coming your way with the blessing of the Lord, the

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