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Should We Engage in Interfaith Dialogue with Muslims? And a Debate Between Robert Spencer and Dr. James White.

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
June 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Should We Engage in Interfaith Dialogue with Muslims? And a Debate Between Robert Spencer and Dr. James White.

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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June 21, 2017 4:40 pm

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Interfaith dialogue between the Christian leader and a Muslim in a mosque and in the church is the wisdom of God's talk for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by going 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown wrote the article is as loud and clear and bold when I printed it out, even small printers like eight pages long. Looking to mention the authors name. I invited them on the air. He declined, but I have called him out for this article fax reveal James White is an Islamic dupe and clueless evangelicals includes me, are desperate to save his credibility. Nothing could be further from the truth across the board and today you're going to be edified. Your eyes are to be open. I believe you can be blessed and stirred with further outreach to the Muslim world this is Michael Brown you're listening to the line of fire. Without further ado I want to bring on the air.

My esteemed friend and colleague Dr. James White is been on the air with me numerous times a bit on his dividing line show we are brothers in the Lord with theological differences along the way, deeply devoted to the same or the same God. I deeply appreciate my brother's heart to reach the Muslim world with the gospel. James welcome back to the line of fire edit] been allowed to get it been quite the time I got yet I think maybe the last time you were you were here face-to-face in the studio with me.

I think so that we did all of the lectionary bend up and cut time, but January (been a while but I appreciate that you have me on because of the day you'll you'll end up paying for it one way or the other yet. Will that that's just fine and I I've been very public on on Twitter and other social media calling people out what I say or slanderous attacks against you because most of my listeners will not be familiar with some of the names of the people attacking the leave that out and and we will we will just get this the facts out as we do, but let's just talk about this. What's your history in terms of Islamic outreach to beige and and what about study and background well get Doug involved in doing apologetic and debate the 1990 and we began dealing with objective of Mobic 2000 beta paralegal biodiversity couple years ago. Mom became majority.

Another majority but the most of any of the group debated became mom mosque young buck mom and wrap… You mama Durban, South Africa, one we Get back on the Benghazi. I was debating in beneath London large mom in Europe on whether Mohammed office, but the Bible and I remember very clearly if you're walking out young.

But men were with me and they're going. You've got to come to Birmingham got to have a debate in Birmingham that we had them tremendous opportunities every time I go to South Africa. The debate on the in the nation South Africa mom there. We always have the kind encountered and yet, as you know, Michael my my desire is to adorn the gospel right not complete decimate someone destroyed someone I want to actually communicate the gospel in a meaningful fashion and I believe Billy would do that to communicate the gospel of grace, and you are not gracious there than an apparent contradiction right at the start which is going to be create a artificial barrier to the presentation will I I've always believed that in dealing with anybody whether the form in the first group without dealing with long time ago. But whatever. I've always gone the original Fort learn what they themselves believe.

I want to know accurately and I want understand why the right so so in order to have a full dialogue, debate, discussion understand what the others believe speak to them graciously respect him and tell him the truth between their eyes. What's controversial about that. I won't will see will be right back in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. If you have like to start directly. You've heard some of that recent criticism and attack a minute I'm I'm looking at stuff. I mean it's it's ugly of called folks out on this and told him it's it's slander. James White has sold out the clear mandates and restrictions of the word of God for the sake of his own self promotion.

I mean, ugly, sick charges like that like this should be marked out if if you believe any of this call-in is were going to set the record straight on that. Out here to embarrass anybody, which is why I'm not even mentioning other names simply dealing with facts and truth, for the sake of the gospel so the controversy then comes James not through you going into mosques and debating Muslim leaders and you've done it more than anybody that I know and you've debated some of the world's top Muslim apologist right in their home turf. So to say, but you didn't interfaith dialogue with with a Muslim leader.

Some of called him a G hottie imams will talk about that in interfaith dialogue. He said he's not an expert in Christian beliefs really want to do a debate but interfaith dialogue in a church with the mom got to say what he believed and then in a mosque. So give us the background to that… Riccardi and I learned a lot from Dr. Codey over the years.

He is a conservative Muslim.

In fact, he came from a solid B background so very very conservative perspective is an expert on the head. Even though I listened very carefully to his lectures on these studies and things like that and so I had had some communication with them over the years he had been willing to provide me with information. Sometimes contacted me to ask questions from from his perspective about different Christian groups and things like that he had been attack, PP has stood up against-he is been marked for death by Isis twice in their published materials and he himself has moved away from the salty perspective as he's got notaries and finished her PhD at Yale University, and so make a long story short, can be going to the Memphis area and so I contacted him and I had tried to talk to him and doing a book with me on the subject of a Christian, a Muslim in dialogue with one another because when you here to site speaking is just like the cross-examination. During a debate that is the most useful time.

In a debate, you get the most information out of the mouth clarification take wealth. Dr. Codey is always that I'm not an expert on Christianity, you would have a tremendous advantage because you state Islam and you know Christianity.

I only know if mom and so I would be to disadvantage. I said, but there are things we can talk about between our two communities and so if you be willing to have just a dialogue but not a debate and I'd be willing to do that well.

People say we just shouldn't do that won't let's remember remember couple things that were going up from the very beginning, the first words I said were.

This is not some type of ecumenical squishy thing Kumbaya sweep over differences under the rug discussion were not doing that that's not the Islam, the Dr. Codey believe that on the Christianity I believe that knowledge going on here. Instead, we are very open about what we believe. In fact I I'm not sure which segment you want to do that then. But I a link I sent a a sound file where if if anyone just listened and in the thing that really bothers me is the initial attack not benefit as this is back in January. This just came back up again because certain people stumble across the. The YouTube video and Dan program without even listening to the end. I critique the dialogue is amply amazing to me that you would do this to someone you know and and claim to be a Christian. The process, but whatever segment you like to do it. We were very, very, very clear in what we are saying to one another in regards to the differences in our in our faith.

And I think you had the opportunity of being talking about let's let's play that right now Johnny grabbed the clip that was from the actual dialogue and let's hear what was being said force was this some kind of alliance is just so some Facebook post attacking you Jameson for making this kind of alliance and how can light rationalize with darkness in all this was a some kind of alliance or was this to give us a here's what I believe here's what I believe here's let's understand the differences plainly and they will do it when I do church in one night in the mosque and what I think is really significant because we both have hard-to-reach Muslims, I often want against radical Islam which I know is not the best way to reach Muslims but I have a burden to warn against radical Islam.

But if I was primarily involved in Muslim outreach. I would tone down some of those warnings only because I'm lucky to be able to reach the people that I reach are we going to cost the field put often offended by me and I'll speak the truth in love, so let's listen to this clip. This is from the dialogue of a relationship with someone based upon respect, recognizing in them.

We use the term image of God is eternal God, I realize it's not MMO some concept, but it's of them because we are created by God. When you recognize and someone else a fellow image bearer.

Obviously, it is it is far easier to model the love of Jesus Christ to have the opportunity of modeling the gospel in front of someone when you have a relationship with them that is based upon respect and kindness and and and everything else rather than I think the greatest barrier for Christians in reaching out to the Muslim people is fear. We have fear in our hearts. It's based upon ignorance is based on other things. That's one of the reasons I want to do this and so the final question before you. We go to questions about action on three minutes over but the last question we had in our inner and on the list is what we want for each other we Sir just talked about that just a little bit but will will conclude with this from a Christian perspective obviously and this is this is why we can have these conversations, I would be very uncomfortable just talking about her similarities. If we weren't honest about where we silently really believe that's that's the kind of dialogue that I think a lot of people think were doing and it's not obviously the greatest thing that I can hope for any person for grace.

I can hope for my children is that they have is that they bow the knee in repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and they receive a new heart. Receive part and they have eternal life. They have his righteousness, and they're going to have eternal life because of a crisis done. If that's the greatest thing can hope for my children.

It's a great thing and hope for a minimum front for anyone else.

And so I can have friendships with Muslim people.

As long as we've had that conversation they know where I stand.

They know what I'm praying for, but I know what I'm to be doing and have been doing for years and it is. I pray for Yasser Codey if I pray for Yasser Codey. I'm not changing God's heart God's chief inching my heart he is making me key is the to be the type of person that is going to be concerned about your welfare concerned about your health concerned about your safety concerned about your family, he's changing me that's you know were not trying to convince God to be better. God's already good.

He's changing us and so what would it mean if the Muslim people in your neighborhood knew that you love them, cared for them. Pray for them are willing to do anything for it would change everything.

But unfortunately that's not generally how they view us and so my desire what I want of the final question was, what is our greatest desire for the other and I know that that's obviously I want your health and your your happiness and all these things, but the greatest thing a Christian wants for anyone is one script that they come to know Jesus Christ personally and bow the knee to him and from a I would imagine from your perspective, you would love to see nothing more than for me to embrace Islam and say the shahada and that would make me very hungry. So right so clearly laid out your desire is that he bows the Jesus's desire is that you become a Muslim. So James where is the ambiguity here. Where's the interfaith alliance here. There was a was many and in fact if you watch the night in the mosque.Cadiz start off by saying first question he asked me again, we Muslim weed honors Democratic plaintiff later on. Why did you have to die and it was not a debate he does not come back push back anything like that. It was explained what you believe and look at the fact the matter is what I've discovered a special task of the week is there's a lot of people have a vested interest in making sure that our to community do not talk to one another that we remain in abject state of fear toward one another and I don't understand that because I am gospel focused. I believe the gospel is the only thing the part of the church is begot but nothing a change heart to mine and if we can open doors Michael II can you begin to describe you, how different it was after each these two dialogues. Both the church and at the mosque. How different it was afterward in comparison to debate both. Both places had no food set up when we were talking with folks and every everywhere you look. It wasn't the Christians in one side of the room number from the unfettered everybody was talking together. It was Christians and Muslims talking together. It wasn't just the two side note, lobbing loving verbal bomb.

The one another.

And like that. They're talking together, I had three men. Men like I said, and then I was in German.

I was with a pastor who has baptized thousand ex-Muslims in the last 10 years. Phenomenal ministry to Muslims. I asked him did this thing did he think it was a good idea will play his coat. We come back the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends on the Internet with my dear friend James wife is come under criticism for interfaith dialogue did conservative mom in January. One night in church one night in a mosque and will give you more of the criticism he's come under many other so thankful for the opportunity. This will let you know when the second hour today.

Dr. White will be having a debate with Robert Spencer about Islam when I can get into the subject. Now that's a separate subject for the debate is true is nonviolence Islam.

In other words, can you be a a true devout Muslim and be a peaceloving Muslim reset a denial of the Islamic faith that you get into in the second hour.

So James you were mentioning. After the dialogue one night. Again, first, that the church second night and in a mosque that there were some Muslim men that you want to tell me about the dream came up to me as they were leaving and want to thank you very much for the dialogue of the spirit which was undertaken thought over the and III looked at the older one good thing the middle and I and I said did you feel welcome here. The and his eyes peered up and he fitly said very quietly I did and in talking with many of the most even after Codey said to me we can have conversation liberal Christian talk with but we also recognize they don't really have a firm belief, but those of you who claim to really believe the Bible and to have a firm commitment to the trillion think I got you won't talk you won't have a thing to do and if it is a tremendous shame. It bit that we have that reputation. The second night at the Mont. This young lady and full. His job comes up to me and and she said thank you very much for being here.

Can I ask you a question and I'm thinner munching on this very yummy chocolate chip cookie. Sorry about that. I know that I write some hot summers and I think certainly interested.

How do you deal with the influence of pagan religion in the development of the doctrine of the Trinity at the Council of my and I'm like wow what a question, and I for 10 minutes.

I stand there and I get to talk about Constantine's actual role the Council and I feel at the Council of the actually fed and go back to Ignatius and Ignatius the test when the deity of Christ under all the way back in 108 and she hung on every single word Michael. That doesn't happen after 99% of the debate. It just doesn't happen. After 9 feet. The difference between a debate in a dialogue is the argument and the interaction takes place between the two speakers at the debate and not afterward at the dialogue.

The Locust moved from Gore upfront know I was preaching anything like that but Dr. Kai did not preach in a church and like that the investment did nothing for them that what but the locus of interaction moves on the two upfront to the people in the on and that's where it needs to be. There's only one of me. There is lots and lots of Christian and so that's where the conversation needs to be taking place here. You had both Muslims and Christians being encouraged to talk with one another and I believe the gospel of the powerful left have that conversation let let the power of the gospel be released, but there's a lot of people that really really fear that they really fear allowing Christians that conversation yet so use your friends, your James heart and outreach and look I'm on the debate. It's one thing that joins us together is debating and putting our lives on the line for the for the gospel yet.

Remember you James when use is spoken, the largest mosque in England during South Africa. How big was your entourage. How many bodyguards to Jeff that you travel by yourself.

Write it exactly and and you may. They understood that you wouldn't date you didn't agree with their religion. You know I remember I member standing in the fun and mosque, and specifically stating that the codon is in error and what it said about the prophecies of Mohammed and almost as it is said that the Don goes off the call to prayer over the loudspeaker. The room we were in and you just you could cut it with a knife but look that's exactly they expect I have to deal with that they never said you can't do anything like that and no one ever attended anyone a debate with Evan and online. By the way, today that I have in any way shape or form. Compromise the gospel my proclamation Muslim and the main people that would be the Muslim they recognize that everything be criticized for being too rigid.

It's for being too uncompromising yet another cycle, this being a Scott or a Calvinist or mixture, but also about the yeah so here's what one of your critics says despite with the theological pretenders of the evangelical lead to clear, honest contenders of the face like me some redness left with no choice but to lift up a shot of clear and unequivocal dissent stress silence be an implicit endorsement of the white travesty that was permeated with the spirit of antichrist. Again, I hate to keep using the word sick. But that's that sick stuff. It's one thing to say. You know, we don't think it's wise to it. We just have a problem with a and E mom talking in the church. I understand some people say that you're just the pulpit not sacred and you don't want to bring a dialogue in there and that you will people that are ignorant or that they make, they may get influenced or isn't this adjuster Codey's like leasing a radicalism. He just that's all fair to discuss that but to couch it like this is spirit of antichrist. I I am imagine the person writing this means well but different from the best of your knowledge one has gotten some people so exercised that their thinking, so utterly irrationally. There is a vested interest in a part many many people to make sure that our to community they absolute date of warfare and Adamo thought I kill Sunni Muslims who are too friendly to do the Christian okay so unverified the far far far right of their side. They believe that the only true Islam is in Islam that shows absolute detestation of Jews and Christians that have their argument that badly on our side and we have no basis for the Scripture. I mean, it is amazing to effectively come up with a well you know you shouldn't be unequally yoked with unbelievers is actually been used as an argument as to why you should have a dialogue with them of the but on our side. We have people who honestly I've seen it. I've seen the gusting comments over the past two weeks, a Muslim of the Muslim every month of the library Muslims demonize them and you have the exact same attitude. And obviously those two extremes are never to talk to another, they're never going to accomplish anything. I assess is you believe that every Muslim is a nonbeliever is a child of darkness, not a child of light.

I very clearly made it known about remember what happened with the burning I would've been in the exact same boat. We all stand condemned before God outside of Jesus Christ.

Exactly right so dialogue dialogue eight.

I believe I'm going out now what we do about right exactly right to take what we've got a lot more to unpack friends and I want to play this amazing quote from Pastor Jim only gets some calls but let the whole world hears this right now, but the whole world here this one critic you said.

Unfortunately exec with you. The time has come to identify the men, churches and organizations who defendant James White and what second John seven through 11 describes as an evil deed manifesting the antichrist spirit okay. I am one of those men. Mark me go ahead and mark me I am one of those who defendant James White sharing the gospel with a Muslim Imam church and a mosque. Go ahead and more. You know what I believe God smart James with a smile. Oh, and go ahead and call the Christian Mafia also all pray that the Lord will bring you to repentance and blessed.

It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6634 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown (the line of fire. Talk interfaith dialogue. He did back in January with the conservative Imam.

One night the church Memphis the next night in a mosque.

So James, when I was in Germany this past weekend after today's and Israel's two days in Germany I I met a pastor actually preached from many years ago in Germany. He's from Ghana.

He's been in Germany 26 years, and he began leaving Muslims to the Lord years back. Now you have different approaches a debate he prays for the second seen many healings, but he's baptized the thousand ex-Muslims at his church on any given Sunday will have at least 200 ex-Muslims there, many from Iran. So I asked him about interfaith delegates is not a debate.preach interfaith dialogue would you do it. I told him, friends, and opportunity.

One night the church one night the mosque. He said that's the wisdom of God. That's the grace of God. That's an open door, do it, and then he said I would. So I said let's do an interview because I want to get his whole story. I said to him. I asked to be get on the air and and he said he said oh I going to that mosque I preach. I line up all the sick. I pray for them.

In Jesus it was that I wish I had that opportunistic note ABOUT what about bringing the Imam into the church and having a dialogue in front of Christians would you do that and I asked him in a totally neutral way. All right, let's hear how he responded pastor Richard. I do from Düsseldorf, Germany.

This is the Goulding of what you need to eat, and Imam William invites me to the Mohawks and to speak to his followers · to be a dream come true, and the topic will be especially explained to them who Jesus is what I will put you need to do preach the gospel and right there in the most latest thing is only just beginning what Johnny let me just jump in okay that was the first time I actually I queued up the scent the wrong want to queue up, but James when I asked her about the mosque and when asked about the mom coming into the church yesterday said he will let him explain what he believes let me explain about Mohammed X spent about the cross. Explain all of that absolutely sick as our people they know Jesus. They will be affected if it will just love Anna would just love autumn telephone chases and he's out. He has baptized a thousand ex-Muslims. II would take his word seriously. Well, that the whole point of passage or two people to complain about have never invested and fell in fitting down and getting to know a Muslim and expressing their own heart. You want to think of starch I do it quick before all my debate is I tried to have lunch or dinner with the person be debating and make sure they understand why I do what I do Michael it is had such a massive impact on the quality of those debate that it not only turn down the be unnecessary volume and temperature but has greatly deepened the content of those debate if you if you can honestly look at them and say I care about you in the name of Jesus Christ I do this because I truly am concerned about you and I really believe that the only way of having eternal life.

And yet, I have taken the time to understand what you believe and accurately understand that bothering me so much like many of my Christian brother. The thing I don't need to know that I don't need to hear with this man had gave the false teacher well okay I understand that but if I'm going to communicate with someone I need to know the categories to do so. The most effectively if I think it's going to Utah and down the street corner and start yelling at Mormon and see how effective you going to be utilizing about Mormonism and of any of the first time you will have annular talk about but just go to Apple basically were being told I go no help.

All that it that's not how the with that the spirit of God believe I understand really. And by the way what I've done debates activist are different ones of those that are opposing so here's the one condition that we we have a meal afterwards and my sinks want to sit and keep relating and in reaching out and by the way, I have debated so everyone's presenting their views forcefully. I've debated a rabbi and a church, a debate of the rabbis in the synagogue, rabbis, and one time I had a rabbi, and lecturer students as to why Christians should not try to reach Jews with the gospel. I lecture my student admin Q&A after it only fueled their flyers to do more outreach will be right back with you cough. It's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown White and Robert Spencer Jihad watch will be having a friendly debate on Islam's is true is always violence can you be a genuine devout peaceloving Muslims at a contradiction in terms. So be discussing that in the second hour James some callers have some questions for you, but let let's just get to one important issue. First, the whole idea of being quote a useful idiot being used by Islam and that you just don't get it. You don't really understand Islam your believing the lies of these Muslim leaders like Yasser Codey and that you don't understand tequila where they're just lying and denying things. Obviously, we understand that people can be useful idiots, be it of communism Butte of Islam and just know Islam's abuse of peace and Islamist was peaceful and though these jihadists are not really Muslims you say there are really Muslims but so were the peaceloving ones that again will be discussed in the second hour. But what about Yasser Codey. I mean I'm I'm reading all these links about them and is tied in with with this group in this group. In this group.

In this group and he stands for sharia law is that the old officer Codey the new Yasser Codey or is there really a new yesterday Codey at all well.

Note 3rd of FY I learned so much from an FY I found in him, someone that I want to have a dialogue with because he's not some type of moderate or liberal, that doesn't actually believe what Muslim speech actually believe Islam. He believes that it through and that the majority of the Muslims are to be talking to you now here in the West were under some liberal while that that that's true but don't you come from another nation there going to be very conservative, believing Muslim though that the type of person I want to have a dialogue with hyper I want to want to reach and felt it's amazing to me that that people going ointment is actually a consistent Muslim below sharia and it's like excuse me. First of all what you know about sharia there. This is another example where is the kind of absolute explosion of the mind. They said you I'm not an expert in city.

I don't know any non-Muslim it is and I don't know very many Muslims who are it makes huge subject. Hundreds and hundreds of volumes, the vast majority, which are only written in Arabic and I know very very very good people that accept all of almost 80 things but one thing I can tell you is that there's a lot of different views of sharia and you know why because sharia simply means God's law and how many views of God law there amongst Christian well old, not just a few week ago debate start on that really the and feet. Again, it's all about consistency. Michael your people say, well, Muslim Muslims want to establish sharia all around the world and I go are looking check. Like Michael was in effect. Every knee will bow and every tongue that Jesus Christ Lord of glory got right so what if someone comes along, all the Christians want to force everyone to become a Christian, you want to build a liquid wait, wait, wait, I need to make distinctions here.

We put this in context and understand exactly how it can happen in the difference between bowing the knee and repentance and faith.

Resulting salvation versus at the end time when God by his power brings it all to and and and every knee bowels but dumped their judgment.

We need to put it on. Contact me to make distinctions if working to demand the absolute right to state this is what we believe by these work. We cannot turn around and say, but we will not allow anybody else to do that we are to tell the Muslim you have to believe what I believe your supposedly about what is and how to apply and all the rest… Even though it is plain-vanilla than a base faith that there have been tremendous argument amongst multiple about those very issues for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of how can we be consistent in saying, we demand the right of self-definition that we will not give you the right of self-definition. I can't look at myself in the mirror in the morning and engage in that kind of activity I have. So even if we believe that the Quran is most influential, falsely attributed to God book ever written Mohammed's most influential false prophet of all time doesn't mean that we don't nuanced discussion about specifics that that we could believe someone is a child of darkness and they could believe where hell bound, but we still want to understand each other, but were having a debate, dialogue, and one rabbi once made the comment that is not fair to take the worst elements of someone else's religion and compare them to the best elements of yours exactly exactly exactly empty my perspective, Michael II believe that I presented them very strong argument against the authenticity of the codon as a divine revelation, but they are fairly deep argument, and they require the Muslim to know the codon and to follow the argumentation and I believe that that as you just set. I learned long time ago, in dealing with normative you respond to the best argument that they give and be prepared for the best people they have and if you're prepared for that venue. When you run to Mormon that not all that well-prepared then you can be prepared for them as well. If you're always going with the least common denominator low and lowball argumentation and that the well-prepared person comes along to be in deep trouble in the same way.

I think our approach should be, well, you see my book what every Christian needs. No other, the primary argument about my book was mission be what every Christian needs to know about God. This should be what every apologist of the codon because I went into so much that but look you respect someone who comes on your program and that I hear you Michael Brown hear about your Christian right you believe that Bible right… The Bible well that make you occult well why the make it difficult as well because I thought you want by an ex-Christian that everything in the Bible is a bunch of mythology is never accurate the Bible. No I haven't but I II watch that movie ability of effort positively none.

Zero and I listened to your debate with with with the rabbis and you know why you drive them not because you've done your homework.

That's why because you've taken the time to read the rabbinic sources I spent in your office and you pulled the mission down off of the shelf and opened it. These pages and you know where everything is and why did you do that to show off no because you knew you needed if you want to reach those people in. You want to reach those people in the proper way you got to do your homework and unfortunately let's be on it. A lot of this is coming from people that haven't done their homework yeah and they think that doing it somehow is the compromise yeah and it's one thing to call out Isis for what it is and and to pray against them and to rejoice when one of their Terrace to taxes is cut down innocent people are killed is one thing to do. That's another thing to reach her next-door neighbor who is a Muslim and one of the nicest people that you've met and is equally mortified. What Isis didn't. The reason we both learn Arabic is to do our best, or read the things in their original language and feel it and try to see it through the eyes of a Muslim why they so devoted wise is so powerful to them and then to bring the gospel since you mentioned your book of its go to James in Lafayette Indiana with a question about your book.

Go ahead sir, you're almost Dr. White. Yes, thank you decided thank you book amen your ministry what you do and really really inquiring you live it out. The Lord, and about the book. Dr. way if there is good way to apply what every Christian should know about the car on I and a small group Bible study setting in order to better cultivate what you're doing with with the dialogue with Dr. Codey and others in an audit. They I hope you do more so pleased to regulate bloodlust not on the letter Dr. Codey would want to do anymore after this, because he's getting attacked right left and center grabbing that it not for Muslim and Christian. If it is a shame, but yet we do hope to do more. Maybe not enough there was Dr. Codey but what was the mothers were willing to do that type of thing, but as far than a small group thing.

I know that there have been churches that have done small group study and a focus upon each chapter tried understand exactly the application will be obviously from my perspective it be the issue of looking for consistency felt being able to go into syrup. Five. For example, when Mikey, the arguments are 543 through 48, and to demonstrate the intimate relationship that exists between the New Testament and the Old Testament and New Testament writers know the Old Testament technical field become the codon which is allegedly the next step in the theory the revelation and there is no knowledge. The author of the codon does not have first-hand knowledge of either the old and New Testament pack.

It breaks the chain to become on it fell claim is the primary authority for the author of the you know if I keep thing off of the con I do that, so as to not get into BB personal affection been connection to the people have the name Mohammed your started allowing them to first step aside and look at the cut on somewhat objectively.

If you talk about the author the call what you're doing if you want to pick asked the question if this is the final revelation, then shouldn't we expect certain things to be able to be fed of it, though, won't the author know what Christians believe and accurately represent what Christians believe will intimate relationship between the revelation that have come before. These are these arguments friends if you don't have clear arguments about these issues. Enough moves across Dr. White's book with every Christian should know about the grommets. It was written in a painstaking way detailed documented but clear and usable fire.

We will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown and James what about the concern that some raise that things were were spoken by the E mom erroneous thing spoken by the mom reflecting Muslim belief and that you didn't quote refuse him, and that therefore people would hear these things and be confused by them or that you know he was allowed to speak lies in a church setting out what was what's your response to that church why the church is made up of people. This is not a worship service. He was not preaching there was no pulpit. We were sitting in comfy chairs look like a Monty Python thing and so we were there any dialogue everyone became there.

You had to get ticket either you knew exactly what you're coming there.

You're going to listen to a dialogue between two different people with very different perspective. So it is not like some some naïve person walked in and got this Chris Chandler this is Bob. I don't know as to think we need to refute everything that he guessed that they that's called a debate at the very thing that he said he was not willing to do because he does not claim to be an expert on Christianity and so be the exact same thing would be true in reverse. When I was in the mosque should he have refuted everything I said about the Trinity than the croissant over what people were there to do here. A representative from the other perspective expressed their faith and so many people to thank well but Dr. Codey. His views are identical to this person over there that person.

If you don't like.

I bye-bye the want to kill them all that does is prove that if you had if you had an interfaith dialogue with well with a Roman Catholic. You're going to expect different answer then you're going to get from the families of God that that's obvious and what this proves that there isn't one Islam, one people are saying. Well Dr. Codey misrepresentative mommy or whether thing is I get to define what Islam is, if it is on the mind and even engaging in picky and he's lying about everything.

I don't know how you can have any kind of meaningful conversation with anybody when you start with the assumption that everything they say about their own faith is going to be a lot I mean that you might why even bother uniting to get anywhere exact situation is just it done just there's there's there's nothing to be communicate at all. And you know II would teach periodically different seminaries and intro class on answering Jewish objections to Jesus so Jewish apologetics 11 and then if it worked out one night during the class and ultra-Orthodox rabbis that I would normally talk to weekly with call-in and I would put him on speakerphone and ask him a series of questions about his relationship to the law, how he views toll roads why he doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah just to be sure that that I representative his views accurately to the students at the way I represented Judaism was accurate, then they would ask him questions and then that would be at II wouldn't rebut him or refute him because the purpose was.

Here's now what you can hear a rabbi singing the whole class was designed to presenting our viewpoint, but we again what's the use of having a dollar if you don't accurately understand the other person believes what, what's the use of of me. You know, getting aggressive in terms of opposing so that some of this even hold to and then what's the use of same to what you believe than the telling singer lie. Michael, I not only have confidence in what we believe in our ability to provide every font, but we have confidence that we have been teaching the people properly and they have a level of discernment. If you set yourself up as the expert of all the things you want everybody depend upon you then you hear that kind of extinct. And if you have confidence your arguments really strong that you can hear bring someone in like that's the problem left the different I believe that we've very very clearly laid out a very strong case of the Trinity to deep right you and I've debated together again.

Many of the objections that Muslims make to the deity of Christ with everyone that that made you and I answered, I think, rather fully, the number of years ago in the debate of the Jewish boys brought. We have confidence in the truth of Christianity. So we can allow it to get out there in the arena of idea other people to another, yeah I I agree that's the case, by the way, that quote we just pulled the wrong one from that pastor in Germany. His thing was, yes, our people the ground that they love Jesus that let the mom say about Mohammed Crom whatever he are people of Jesus, and I can move they understand the truth. Let's let's try to grab one more call really quickly Chris in Ontario, Canada. Thanks for holding which your question for Dr. White hello Dr. White and Dr. Michael Brown very pleased to be on your table.

Speak with you two gentlemen of my question for Dr. White would be on the Internet.

There was a a broadcasting that had your words and it was that there was no apologist able to clearly and represent the gospel of better than you have been embossed environment out to Muslims. Now what type of contact with Deputy another belt and the dividing line just last week what I was talking about with the criticism that people are making that all James White didn't didn't present the gospel and and James White was called by the gospel and what I was pointing out that in regards to people that are active in debating Muslims today. I don't know of anyone who goes to more pain than I do to try to make sure not in an artificial way, not in a way that violates the rules debate, but I can provide clip after clip after clip of my tying the topic into a presentation of the gospel in whatever context I'm in the one people come along and say all this is terrible you're compromising off weird group of Islam because you didn't you didn't preach the gospel in the context they're ignoring the fact that in the second half this dialogue.

I was thickly asked I did Jesus have to die.

I sat there for 10 minutes in a mosque explaining the necessity of the atonement. I mean, it is just amazing. Why anyone would make the argument that the presentation of the gospel is something that I am speaking to not like I'm trying to please my Muslim masters I heard that one to fill up my spine through with this assertion that well you you you didn't represent the gospel in the what happened to the terrible, horrible thing in my my response was I don't think show me anybody in a small number through doing pretty show me anybody who has put more effort into making sure the gospel is clearly proclaimed in their debate tonight and I don't think there is anybody that's going to. Folks are much more focused upon historical things and lost things in history and things like that.

I'm very focused even when debating issues that are primarily historical and tying it into the gospel and and that's all I would think it was a very short clip. They took it out of the context what I was saying in I stand I want to set hey thank you for the response James and Chris, thank you for the question like this and friends. We are out of time in this first hour we resume will be joined by Robert Spencer and Dr. White and Robert Spencer are going to have radio debate we have to do within the context of the time frames that we have, but those gentlemen understand that what we do our best to give them equal time and then time to question each other. Let me remind you if you are not getting my emails were sending out new articles you videos every single 678 resources. Make sure you sign up and asked her to Brown, the Lord ASKCR set for the emails I want to send you a free e-book seven secrets of the real Messiah, a real eye-opener. Yours for free on the website. Islam is always violent. If you true to the Corolla and the original sources will you support G hard rebound to debate that issue is time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire over the months and years. We've often talked about Islam. I've often warned about radical Islam and interacted with teachings of the Quran of also sought to interact with Muslims and discuss the gospel as well. But the question that always comes up is the nature of his loan is Islam. By its very nature, true to its original sources. In the example of the life of Mohammed always going to have a violent expression always going to believe in some form of G hard. Or maybe not as bad as Isis but it will be a violent religion or is it possible to retrieve the Quran and Mohammed the original sources and and in the theology and history and somehow be a peaceloving Muslim and say in times of war. That's one thing that otherwise were peaceloving and we we deplore with these other groups do with are there different forms of Islam. That's what we want to discuss today and I've got two experts on with me. Robert Spencer, the director of Jihad watch, which is a program David Hart's freedom Center, author, 17 books and for the New York Times bestseller the politically incorrect guide to Islam and the Crusades. II often go to his website G hard watch dog or a missed Spencer. Thanks much for joining us on the broadcast today.

Thank you all right and joining him is Dr. James White we been on the first hour talking about an interfaith dialogue he had with the Muslim E mom earlier in the year, but now refocusing on this topic.

James was a director of Alpha and Omega ministries.

The author of many books and on most particularly when every Christian should know about the chronic James Dr. White.

Welcome back to the show quite so Robert if you could take a minute and give your basic thesis that I want James to do it and then you'll unpack it both longer in the next segment. So Robert starting with you for a minute really well be certainly true that not every move on is waging jihad or ever will wait for her need to wait for God in Islamic theology the Quran and Byzantine is something that is violent Mohammed who is exemplary for Muslims in terms of the highest example to be imitated but in battle that exhorted to do so. The Quran says that those believers who did at home are not equal to those who drive in the way of a law that is waste jihad in the way of the law with their possessions and their live which make the Derek they were talking about battle and not about some sort of spiritual struggle and Islamic law in all of the various schools of jurisprudence, but when he and she. All of the mainstream effect of Islam, all of them are unanimous in teaching that is the responsibility of the Islamic community to wage war against unbelievers and subjugate them under the rule of Islamic law and so violence is inherent in Islam in all of its traditional and classic formulation one minute exactly James over to you will obviously need the real issue here is do we demand that we apply a Protestant stole a script for the earliest sources are the only type thing lands upon Islam or do we recognize that Islam developed its own jurisprudence over time that provided for a limitation on the nature of Jihad when jihad can take place. What jihad is the role the caliphate, so on and so forth and so while there's no question that there is a tremendous amount of basis for the argumentation of violence in the promulgation of Islam. There is also very clearly no consistency in this is the issue is I'm to be arguing a have to argue that the original sources themselves are not consistent with themselves as divine revelation is why my primary argument against the ideas of my friends come back. Robert Spencer five minutes when his position like five minutes supporting his position then will continue to go and ultimately with interaction between the two gentlemen.

As we discussed real nature of Islam. Her plan by dance the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown discuss this Robert White prophet flesh Robert Spencer G hard watch and James White of Alpha and Omega ministries Robert over two, four, five minutes to present your side. Dr. White started out by thing that will be must not do is apply some sort of product and full of scripture or analysis to Islam ended up to be true that exactly what I am not doing what we have to do is take Islam on its own terms. You mentioned schools of jurisprudence and that is exactly what we need to look at because everything the woman every Shiite Muslim with very few exceptions adheres to one of the schools of jurisprudence and funny worldly shut PQ molecule cannot be an on Bali school.

These are not brick-and-mortar schools. These are schools of thought ways of understanding Islam and all of them Shiite. Both of the Jabari school of the Shiite to another the other Shiite gold. They all give a Muslim, and under standing, not just the phone with Scripture or religion that reads the Quran and come to an idea of what it means. It is a religion of authority and the authorities come from B-schools of jurisprudence. Every one of these schools of jurisprudence in his unanimous in saying that it is a responsibility of the community to make war against Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims in order to bring them into the Islamic social order which means that they pay the jiffy of the tax on the on the phone and accept various humiliating and discriminatory regulation, or else they go to war with the multiple of the go to war with them that it this is something that is taught by all four schools of jurisprudence among the family, as well as by the Shiite. It is something that is taught by Mohammed and something that is exemplified by Mohammed. So the thing is is that Dr. White is also correct when he says there is no consistently in the original fourth, but this is something that the schools of jurisprudence all deal with because in the early part of Mohammed career, he did not teach warfare against unbelievers, but when he moved the intra-from Mecca to Medina. He began to preach in the first place. Defensive jihad and then, often 50. The first biographer of Mohammed given the stock in the eighth century. He actually explained that there is a progression in the car on in its understanding of the hot first tolerance then defensive jihad. And finally, often 50, which is the stage that is valid for all time. Although, when the funds are a small group that is threatened by a large majority of unbelievers.

Then they also will preach tolerance in the manner of the first state, but it is always tending toward the second and third state. The doctor waited broadly correct that there is no consistently in the fourth, but this is an inconsistent fee that is been dealt with by Islamic jurisprudence all the way back to the beginning all the way back to it in a talk given Kai E. Given Dear the pioneering sociologist to be called Dune and many other Islamic authority all the way throughout Islamic history down to the 20th century have taught that the often 50 hot the verses involving fighting like for example chapter 8 verse 39 of the Quran fight until religion is all for a law chapter 9 verse 29 which they fight them and fight against those who do not obey a law and his messenger and do not forbid what he is forbidden even if they are of the people of the book which is primarily Jews and Christians until they pay the Jews deal with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued that these kinds of birth take precedent over verses such as chapter 109 of the Quran which the fate of the unbelievers. I don't worship what you worship and you don't worship but I don't I worship were not going to worship what each other worship things so eventually would leave each other alone that the verses of fighting of warfare they take precedent over the verses of Pete and so for example you have a Honda fee manual of Islamic law thing, but because the prophet Mohammed with the fourth exemplary from behavior instructed his commander directing them to call the infidels to the faith. First on the phone call to get the faith the people will perceive that they are being attacked for the state of religion and not just for the sake of taking the property other work enjoining religious warfare and they that this is something that will ever possibility to fight by a double album of duty 20th century jihad. In Pakistan for the same thing in his multivolume exegesis of the girl on the cover possibility to wage war to impose sharia over the world so they understood that there are other things in the fourth of teaching Pete but they always caught in the in accord with the principle of abrogation based both on the Quran that what comes chronologically later. Stupid people come chronologically earlier that the warfare superseded the power I thank you now.

Dr. White back to you, but we've Artie had pretty much everything we need laid out). Now we've gotten to the real issue right there at the end that is, if we are having to deal with the Islamic sources engaging in prioritizing their material thing. Well, this has precedent over that this requires the to utilize the law of abrogation.

For example I have in my experience never found the law of abrogation to be applied in the exact same way by almost anybody. It is amazing how easy it is to utilize log abrogation to basically come up with your own particular breakup perspective.

Whenever a fact arises in Islam, and there have been many of them.

They utilize log abrogation to reorganize things same thing is true with the study of the heavy when you start looking at the massive amount of information and you actually start reading the heady, you discover very very quickly that by prioritizing how you're going to view them by putting one quotation over another quotation. It's very easy to change the tenor and the tone of what you are what you to be preventing from the heady and spent 70 become the lens through which the cut on it self is to be interpreted and have to be the length was the Quran itself interpreted for the simple reason that the cut on being so short and being so non-moving when it is not clear in its presentation. You cannot exegete it the way you can. The New Testament, you have to have a lens through which you're going to be reading it and the many, many, many different readings of the Quran that have come about as a result, and the, the interpretation of different passages is due to the fact that you can create the lands that you want to create from the deep. And so my problem with the entire thesis statement is this idea that there is a quote unquote true Islam, who is getting the defined app.

How do we add we had to be defined in FY that the beginning in listening. For example, to Dr. Scotty while the thing they said it was fascinating to me as he said well be the solid feet. The Wahhabi they basically are like the reformer and what they've done is they've gotten rid of all of the later development. The tradition thing this wasn't coming from those original sources wasn't coming from the that the people around the prophet, and they've gotten rid of all the things that provided a buffer against this type of activity. And that's why they fight with each other. That's why they can't agree on theology.

That's why there there and that the method therein, which is very similar to the argument the Roman Catholic youth again.

The Protestant thing about groups like the prospective things like that and felt when we say what is true Islam, we have to ask yourself the question, do you mean what is the view of Mohammed. While I don't know that anyone can know that in fact Robert Spencer has a book did Mohammed exist. So if you question whether mom existed. I don't like to know what he would've thought if you actually that, so how can we, how can we even know it when I read that he it seems very very clear to me that were reading stories that have developed over a tremendous period of time and in different direction does seem to be a core of some type of historical element to it, but so much of it develops over time and again by looking at he can go well. This Isis kite book there to look at this strain of tradition in the heady and are going to use that to create their theology and up to be a very violent theology, no question about but then others look at this strain of the heady and they are knocking to look at the same way as Pokémon that the people, for example, who has Muslims desire the education of women. For example, are going to prioritize certain IDs over other kitty the inconsistency of these sources is to me one of the strongest argument against the divine nature of Islam because you can say the cut on was written on heavily upon heavenly tablet and bent down during Ramadan and you can say it's been actually perfectly preserved for the fact matter is, it cannot define itself is not sufficient in and of itself to define itself. And when you add the deep and it doesn't help the situation.

It hurts the situation and so I don't leave that there is a quote unquote true Islam to begin with. I don't think the historical document can give us a solid enough basis for that. And so, since my my biggest emphasis is seeking to receive or they are.

Then I want to read them with their beliefs are not fighting for something I friends we come back.

I actually have a question for Robert Spencer any questions for James White. And then there going to be able to question and cross-examine each other. Stay tuned. The line of fire your host Dr. Michael Brown line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Actually, I got slightly off my I will answer recent questions in the next segment. But first, back to Robert Spencer for a four minute response rebuttal to Dr. White. I think Dr. White and I both agree that there is ridiculous. The fate of any truly long because there isn't any single authority that can define what that would be. However, we can and should look at the mainstream authority within Islam. As I explained in the earlier segment and those are all unanimous in thing that she involves violence against unbelievers and that unbelief violence against unbelievers is the blessed act that will bring reward to the believer. Dr. White is correct that the deep contain all kinds of different things but it's really kind of ridiculous for him to say that because I question the historicity of Mohammed.

Therefore, we can't know anything about what Mohammed actually said and it took like if I say McBeth said is this a dagger IP performing well. McBeth really said that if in the play, but that doesn't mean McBeth was a historical character and the same thing with Mohammed, Mohammed says and does all sorts of things in the 50 that we can and should know about, but that doesn't mean they have any historicity. Now the historicity of Mohammed as a separate question, but the content of Mohammed's teaching is very important because it formulates Islamic law and Mohammed is very clear in the deep if not true. While it's true that there also are contradictory to be about all kinds of matter. Dr. White will not be able to invoke the singlehood beef in which Mohammed is saying live at peace and coexist with the unbelievers on an indefinite basis and don't go to war with them.

There is no such a deep, but there are many for 50 safe for example Mohammed for the been commanded to fight against people as though they confess that there is no God but Allah, and I am his messenger or where he tells the is is all worth two in the first place. Invite the believe the unbelievers to accept Islam and then invite them to pay the just yet. If they refuse both then to fight them where Mohammed says I have been made victorious with terror, where it very clear that he doesn't mean some sort of religious off but terror in the sense of being terrorized. Mohammed himself practiced this in a notorious incident. There were some people who stole some of the camel and made off with them and the Mohammed ordered people to go and follow them and find them and then he ordered them to be at their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides with is in accord with the chronic chapter 5 or 33 and had them staked out in the desert and their cries for water to be ignored, and so on.

This is somebody who mandated violent to practiced violent who exhorted his followers to engage in violence and this is why all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in teaching that violence is integral to the application of Islam for the believer. This note violence is barred By a communal obligation on the move from community in general thought of one part of the community is discharging it another does not have to so not every Muslim has to engage in violence in order to be a true multiple.

But there is no set of Islam that teaches Pete. There is no school of jurisprudence of Islam that teaches that Muslims should coexist with unbelievers equal every last back then every last school working from this math of the deep. Dr. White likely note to contradictory faith in it at all of them do it all out that there's not even a single one 50s NEP Senate. They all the same mandate to wage war against and to subjugate unbelievers as inferior denied basic rights under the rule of Islamic law, we have to remember that that is the goal of because it's not just undifferentiated mayhem is designed to weaken the infidels ultimately to bring them under the sway and onto the government of Islam is not duty says nonbelievers have absolutely no right to feel the reins of power in any part of God's earth, and if they do the believers have the possibility to take up arms and dislodge them from that power.

I thank you now James White that you for four minutes.

I'm a little confused about what was just said in regards to McBeth and and Mohammed. I'm still it sounds like if if the thesis of the debate was true.

Islam is always violent. If were saying there is no such thing as true Islam that the farm has always been of had all these different kinds of characteristics to it and that there is differences between people. Maybe what should have been fed is you can interpret the various schools of jurisprudence in such a way that they all demand jihad as long as you don't then also include the limitations upon jihad the requirements when you live in a non-Muslim land.

We haven't defined yet. Unfortunately, as time gets shorter and Shirley segment Dara Harb a dial Islam what what the differences between the world that is submitted to a law the world. It is the right brain of war. So on and so forth that that that's unfortunate, but I was completely lost as to the relationship of McBeth, the Mohammed mama didn't exist, then what you have is some kind of development over time of what becomes the foundation of the various schools of jurisprudence that come from, and if there wasn't a Mohammed, then how can there be such consistency among the schools of jurisprudence is something that I think we really have to think about. Once again, the question becomes if were using the laws of abrogation to come up with all of this type of interpretation begin with.

What do you do with the people that you live with today who look at the stories of Mohammed and they may empathize the pre-his rough story so they empathize the stories when he was a minority prophet when he himself was speaking religious freedom. Apollo bases are those abrogated and if they do believe those things to be relevant to their faith today you say to them, I'm not united to muscle or you to simply say well historically, the large portion of your your leaders in the past have not taken the same perspective that you have is that then meant to be an argument that is supposed to lead them to well wanted to think that I'm not sure. Do we want to actually try to argue to Muslim that to be a true Muslim you need to become violent. I've I'm not sure that's what we want to do even though I have.

For example, many times the past argued that the vast difference between the Christian message, and the Islamic method is that the the messenger of the though the one that we are presenting to people of Jesus Christ is not a person that you can hold up entire books about their various military campaign, but you can't Mohammed and the one of the great dangers of Islam is that it has enshrined at least a later understanding of this man Mohammed one that I would say evolved over time, and not necessarily reflect the original Mohammed if there is no if we could even dig past various historical developments to get but since that is what is been happening since he has been called the best of humanity than what you've done is you have established someone who has all of these character issues to deal with and there has not been any type of of meaningful understanding of what came before hand in the other books that the codon says were also contained light and guidance which would help you to in any way ameliorate the exultation of the militaristic aspect of that individual character.

Thankfully there is some Muslim someone has a size that they are unfortunately in the minority, but they still exist. What we do about them using right before my time is out all right is what happens when you go second on the radio show we come back. I got a question for Robert Spencer questions for James White. Then they can go at each other. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speed and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 64 through here again is Dr. Michael Brown right now presented to be on the nature of Islam. This is consistently point to violent jihad against unbelievers or is it inconsistent and there are various expressions of Islam, some of which may be violent, some peaceloving, the former position is being advocated by Robert Spencer of Jihad a best-selling author on Islam.

The latter position is being advocated by James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and also a best-selling author.

His book on Quran for Christians will moan as well.

I have a question for Robert Spencer than a question for James White.

And then I want to give them opportunity to cross-examine one another out Robert when there is an attack in the world. It looks like it could be terrorists. I immediately go to Jihad watch, because you you seem to know pretty quickly whether it's a terrorist attack or not and then will hear the constant mantra from all the leaders of the West that this is not Islam I write about a costly elephant reference Jihad watch, what would you say to those who see the latest terrorist attack carried out by Islamic extremists who say this is not Islam can you take 60 seconds to say what you would say to them when the attacker don't make it clear that they are acting in the name of Islam is foolhardy in the extreme to pretend that they are not, we should take them at their word. For example, today a Muslim in a an airport in Flint, Michigan, stabbed a policeman in the neck while screaming alarm clock bar and the police said this is potentially an act of terrorism. Also, what on earth. The poor man could do to establish that if an act of terrorism beyond what he's already done. We need to understand what the tea parties themselves are saying about themselves in order to be able to counter them effectively and this willful ignorance on the part of the authority which is designed to keep people essentially complacent about the full magnitude of the threat is ultimately extraordinarily dangerous and is going to expose this further to the threat because it not being countered honestly or effectively just if you can expand just fluency. 31 seconds. Why do you think so many people get this wrong in the West. I'm sorry you almost inaudible there.

Why do I think what what what you think so many in the West have gone this one if you just take maybe 30 seconds.

There is a concerted effort by the media and by governing official to obfuscate terror attack and to downplay and denigrate, deny outright any Islamic connection to them and so routinely we see in the mainstream media that there's a guy screaming alarm clock bar, even courting the car on saying like Omar McKean did in Orlando that he's doing it for a 50 Islamic date and then we read that it's really about something else. But there mentally ill that they had family problem something of that kind.

It seemed as if there is a very high level effort to make sure that people do not realize the full magnitude of what is going on in the so it's somewhat suicidal incident.

I'm sorry. It is somewhat suicidal, is not no doubt directly suicidal. You guys could turn up the volume on the very hard to hear.

I… Sure what happened there. I think everything's a seminar and that will work on that. I James, let me put this question to you and then you can answer it.

On the other side of the break and then Robert and James. You can interact in question one another.

But James, here's my question to you.

I look at the way you have debated Muslims and in the mosques, and other settings is a real model that you're familiar with the material you're respectful to them, but you loudly and clearly present Jesus to them. So my question to you can answer it. On the other side of the break and take a couple of minutes to answer is what concerns you. In terms of gospel outreach when the latest terrorist attack takes place and people symbolize almost all Muslims are like ISIS and a lot of Christians think you almost lose like ISIS and if they say they're not there line. James you can answer that. On the other side of the break and take a couple minutes to do it and then Robert your time to answer, ask James a question to cross-examine him and then back in North he will go in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown having discussion about the Robert Spence you can read is politically incorrect guide to Islam and the Crusades's website. Jihad James White.

You can read his book with every Christian needs to know about the Koran's website, a OMI and Ward suggest my question to you before the break was one concern you.

When there's the latest Islamic terrorist attack, and a lot of Christians think will all Muslims are terrorists and unfortunately closed doors and opportunity of presenting the gospel to individuals because it creates fear in people's mind and certainly there is reason to to be fearful of individuals who engage in this type of activity. I can't look into people's hearts in my I can't look into that. That manner today in Flint, Michigan engage in this type of activity anymore than I can look in the heart mind of the individual to grow the van and the Muslim just a few days earlier in London. I can't see those things and so if you put yourself out there to present the gospel you are risking yourself and you have places often and got at that point but might my real concern is I'm looking at ways of opening up avenues of communication between Christians and Muslims because for me, given the nature of Islam. Given that I do not believe this is an argument for many many years.

I do not believe that the original sources of Islam are sufficient to be able to and the disputes between the various Muslim groups and the infighting and remember ISIS primarily kills Muslim as their victims, as well as Christians and others.

I don't believe that the original sources of Islam are able to answer those questions. So what's the only true final solution. I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and so I want to see every opportunity of doors opening and unfortunately way things are being dealt with because the media look when someone yells a lot clock bar need to recognize yes this person is claiming an Islamic understanding of what they're doing but then you also have to be honest and go look.

When a Christian does something, don't we want to be able to ask the question how much this person really know how how well studied, where they what what perspective are they coming from. We want to have that kind of freedom and we need to extend that freedom. The other side.

It bothers me when people say well it's just all of Islam without making the necessary distinctions to recognize the differences that actually and I wanted to pass this to questions gentlemen only to emphasize not not just the truth about the various questions but why you each do what you do. There's a different motivation behind it. Nonetheless, come back to the discussion is Islam consistently violent.

Not can you be a genuine devout serious Muslim and be peaceloving and renounce funky house so Robert your time now to begin cross-examination. You can ask James a question if you need to clarify. Go back and forth will find them will switch over to James asking you so over you. Robert, thank you.

Actually, Dr. minority F3 question earlier. What would you say to him who prefer the neck and packages of the Koran, which generally teach a form of tolerance rather than the Medina test does the teach warfare and what I would say to them in and leading up to my question to Dr. White is to note that Michael, Taha, the great Sudanese Muslim theologians was executed as a heretic by the Sudanese government that which is the sharia government and Islamic law, government according to Islamic law in 1985 for preaching exactly that.

And so what I would ask the doctor late in in in in turn is what would he say how would he ask those move from that claim that they are neck and the not Medina in the form.

How would he ask that that how would how does he propose that they protect themselves from charge of the therapy from the mainstream dominant view that Islam teaches violence among that it and that can you name please a school of jurisprudence or effect of Islam that actually teaches peace and coexistence of equals with nonlocal whatever number of things there, but I think the very question certain establishes the thesis of the debate unless you get to say that the man who was executed by the Sudanese government was not a Muslim, then you have Muslims killing Muslims over disagreement on this very issue which started is the point of of why I even agreed to do this and and that is I know too many Muslim who interprets the history of Islam, not just the original document, but they then interpret even the schools of jurisprudence in light of the history of Islam in the history of the development of the Abbasid dynasty, and so on and so forth. There's a lot of theological if we can recognize that even the view that the code on is eternal amongst the feeling that I but I mean if a difference in the Sunni and Shiite. We can recognize something is central is that developed over time and it was not an original concept became a timer came to visit over time if something as basic as that can be the result of the process of the development of theology, then obviously many other things can as well and the people looking from our perspective, backward, thick, well there is the process development. This is the stream that I see that I want to be a part of that expresses what I understand of Islam, and so this that the terrible thing that the Sudanese government would act in that way and that the only place you can be free to have that perspective, is outside of where sharia becomes established on library money would not be because of the nature of sharia itself. That would be because of the way the sharia is applied. As you know, there's different ways of understanding and applying Surrey at the very fact that in African Islam contacts up until the past what hundred and 20 years, approximately 80 years. I guess there was tremendous freedom even amongst Muslims and Christians in aboriginal tribes and thought that was the retreat from sharia that wasn't sharia 70% of all the rulings are established by consent judgment among the various schools of jurisprudence of the in Africa. There were many areas where sharia was not applied. But that wasn't from moderate form of sharia.

So I ask again, can you please identify outside from one individual who was executed as a heretic. Can you please identify a sector school of Islamic thought that teaches peace and coexistence with nonbelievers of the will again peace and coexistence of nonbelievers as equals of course not, because of the fact that you have short and you have the understanding of the Oma and the division between Darl Harb and the Darl Islam. But I'm I'm afraid you're utilizing that terminology there in in somewhat of a double entendre or something along those line there is no question that Islam use those who submit to a law to be in right relationship with the law and they want to have God's law applied across the board.

The question is, is there a proper way or is there any way at all that a believing person can interpret those same historical laws in such a way that they for example, believe that if you are in contract. If you are a member of another society, if you are under the laws of another society that you cannot engage in rebellion against that society and as you know, that has been a decision that has been made many times in the history of the get in regarding additional unfilmable of the campaign sufficient strength in order to apply Islamic law and has a history are also aware of the question once again become is there then a school of thought that rejects violence against unbelievers that reject the idea that one must wage war against unbelievers and make them submit as inferior under the rules of sharia to pay the dizzy do not build new churches that kind of thing. There is actually no question that that particular understanding of the application of, for example's nine is extremely prominent. However, what I was trying to say you said well that's provisional until something takes place while what you mean by one night.

Unlike I'm not asking questions right now you know you been making love statements but when you say that's provisional provisional in the sense that this person is allowed to engage in active violence to hasten this or provisional in the sense that they except that in this particular land. This is the case of the law that the company will actively rulings are generally that if the pain a majority then they can begin to apply Islamic law and from school.

Consider that it impermissible to engage in jihad activity until that point, but at the same time there working toward that point since the divorce.

And of course the reality that all of these schools.

While the important elements of this where Isis and the others have rejected these Islamic schools would you haven't brought up is a necessity of the caliphate, which is why Isis is so fixated on the concept of the caliphate right of court with the military in different as well that I is not killing other Muslim because the comfort of a nonuniform entity is killing other movement because the believe that if the caliphate and that almost allegiance to it, and that therefore those who are not only allied with it are heretics or apostate and thus under the death penalty for heresy in the path, which is why they also attacked Al Qaeda right this is the same thing that Al Qaeda is a rival jihadist group and thought that he don't accept the caliphate, but they're both working from the same principle that one must do violent to those who are outside the full button that the core of our debate here that violence is core and is taught by all the various DeGroot in the Islam and not something that is only the province of one group or another group because he still still have the names of any their high-tech taillights jump in here white using finisher point and then you can begin to questions Robert Spencer and feel free to question make statements you free in the interaction that we start.

Dr. White, the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution there again is Dr. Michael Brown – trying to get to their number, time, toward the end was the reason that there is so much infighting between the various groups is because they don't have the same theology and the same understanding Isis establishes the caliphate because they recognize that historically, there has to be a Kayla 4G hard to exist and Al Qaeda specifically rejected that you read the writings of Al Qaeda that they put out they said that the state of jihad exists and there does not need to be a caliphate, and so might my point was isn't that one of the demonstrations of the fact that this idea that there is a single one true Islam. There is a lots of lots of differences in one of those differences is this idea of the necessity of the caliphate. Right. So with that return things now that James you cannot back out. My question, I'm sorry.

Sorry, my bad. Sorry go ahead and I'll rent everything they're trying to talk and was needed to know the reason he's been here the whole time based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the Islamic theology of the Al Qaeda declared that they did not need to be caliphate because Al Qaeda was they think with thing that it was a defensive chief in Islamic theology since the ninth century, the formulation of the theology of the there has been the idea of offensive jihad and defense 50, often 50 HUD requires a Kayla to call it in the Kayla has the possibility to call it at least once a year, but in the absence of the Kayla there is not as if there isn't anything jihadist is is like that very much earlier barred Via a an obligation on the whole community, but if a multiple land is attacked, then Fiat becomes part, i.e., which is an obligation on every individual multiple and does not need the permission of our or the call of the Kayla and so what Al Qaeda was arguing with. Not that there's no Kayla if necessary they were going against traditional Islamic theology. They wouldn't dare. They work instead just laying that we are in a state of defensive jihad because of the length of been attacked. Osama bin Laden even invoked the presence of American folders in Saudi Arabia for claimable phone lands were attacked, but also there was a rock in Afghanistan. After that became a much easier case to make then Isis which comes from Al Qaeda went with them one better. They didn't disagree with any of that expertise. But they said that the caliphate was now back and so they were able to declare often. 50 hot and Fiat did not all need to be defense but when a deceptive Islamic apologists like Dr. Codey comes in to the US and he tells people there's no G hot because there's no Kayla.

He is being actively misleading because he knows full well that defensive jihad is something that is a responsibility of every individual if some of the length of the text and the duck was Al Qaeda's Kate, but he fostered complacency and ignorance among them weren't aware of the archaeology by making it seem as if all these basic all these various peons around the world today are illegitimate. Since there is no recognized Kayla felt when he actually gives entire lectures were to contextualize those talks about both offense of defensive talks about the Kayla and then also include the information concerning the necessity when you are considered to be under contract to have a covenant of oath of loyalty to a nation and the relevance of that is not just what is giving to the to the Muslims or was I just awful to be listening to those things or how do you how do you have knowledge of of his heart and intentions even when he asked, protecting his family because ice is one thing that I never claimed any knowledge of his hard-earned. That's quite called him a G hottie apologist yeah that's what you that's obvious from his word from what you said but the fact is that the Isis has a monolith because he is affiliated with brotherhood group, the Muslim brotherhood is a very large rival of Isis and wanting to establish a caliphate of the bone. They had their big chance in Egypt in 2012 and they blew it when Mohammed Morsi was toppled from power in 2013 and Muslim brotherhood group in the United States are quite expensive and active as a matter fact, every major local organization in the United States is linked to the brotherhood of the brotherhood organizations in the US are able to full people very easily by claiming that they die, they condemn Isis they paid Isis. They don't want anything to do with that caliphate and I felt true, but not because they reject it in principle reject the theology because there rival. They want their own caliphate and so of course they're gonna denigrate. I liked up for denigrate Chevrolet also did so for some reason I think the time to actually listen to the author Codey lectures against Isis.

I didn't get the Ford and Chevrolet thing I what I what I got was was much more theological in regards to historical development of the idea of the courage I and the use of violence and it it it wasn't anything about Fordson Ford and Chevy that just simply meant to be deceptive. Don't know if they made a living you misunderstood my analogy, whatever thing is they're both filling cars. They're both in the same business.

They both want the same thing there just to rivals were trying to get to it in different way and that's the same thing with Isis in the brotherhood and so theological element was just meant to be deceptive will is clear that we might develop in I probably have to remember that Mohammed or his feet and the Quran. In chapter 3 verse 28 that you can deceive unbelievers in the in the commentary on that verse. One of the companions of Mohammed Abdul… That we smile in the faces of some people behind their backs. We cursed them and so that cannot be discounted of the possibility certainly. But as I say I'm not claiming to know his heart is the fact is, however, that the brotherhood is dedicated to the establishment of the caliphate groups that Codey is involved with are connected to the brotherhood of the perfectly reasonable for my that he has no objection to the proper question of the reestablishment of the caliphate in principle like the Isis one because it not in his group at the rival group with their beat with every anything that could be said from anyone. Anyone who's ever spoken. It is not are they not automatically by speaking is not connected in utilizing your terminology to the Muslim brotherhood will say something if I went to get a group and I thought big Ku Klux Klan banner and behind me. I would walk out. I wouldn't speak and if a Muslim and fairly reject G hot reject violence against unbelievers once peaceful coexistence. Why would he go speak at a group like it everything.

You know what it stands for elevate is not from your perspective stands for violent jihad. I didn't say that I said this is the speaker who comes in may have nothing to do with it, but he should know you have the responsibility to know who the sponsors are any fees but if that has admitted ties to Hamas in the brotherhood think he should know better than to speak there unless he wants the Association and has no trouble with, so there is there is always unanimity of perspective from everybody was involved in every every teleconference you speak at unanimity between yourself for everything but your your your I think perhaps intentionally missing the point. The fact is that I am help to very strict standards of them sure you are as well. In this and that we are always part with associations with various people. If you look at the rap sheet on these various lessons as I read it, to give you both led to the last second will post this on the website. The line of and put the audio up on YouTube. Gentlemen, I gave it to the last second. Thank you, thank you for joining us

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