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Is There Such a Thing as Ex-Gay?

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
December 18, 2017 4:30 pm

Is There Such a Thing as Ex-Gay?

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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December 18, 2017 4:30 pm

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Is there really such a thing as an ex-gay people really change through the gospel stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown was the director of the coalition of conscience have the president of fire school of ministry getting to the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH paradigm is Dr. Michael Brown yesterday marked a very important day for me. 46 years ago, the Lord set me free from addiction to the needle. It was the time of real surrender in my life I had believed for about five weeks before that that Jesus really died for my sins but was willing to repent or turn away and God's grace flooded my heart. December 17, 1971 I got an overwhelming revelation of the love of God for me and saw that I was spitting in his face by living the way I was living that moment.

I said Lord of never put a needle in my arm today. That was the point of surrender of repentance acknowledging and submitting to the Lordship of Jesus, I been free from that point on.

The outward drug addiction just being a small part of the larger transformation of my life was 46 years ago on December 17.

I am forever grateful you listen to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown and later in the broadcast to bring on Stephen black. He is a prominent leader and what you would call the ex-gay movement people by God's grace have been delivered from homosexual practice is got a great testimonies got a new book out called freedom realized. So you have a great conversation with Stephen starting at the bottom of the hour. If you have a question maybe you have a family member that struggling in these areas. Maybe you yourself are struggling you give us a call in a little while and will put you on with Stephen to talk about these very things 866-34-TRUTH 87884 but I want to glorify the Lord in my own life and say this, I was not a drug addict as much as I was in the and added to the needle. I could not see living my life without drugs and rock music. I couldn't see it at all used to be known as drug bear Ironman because I could put such massive quantities of drugs into my system there. There's an old picture of me that we just posted on our live video broadcast is my hair was growing long here. We don't have it in my full-blown fullest rebellion longest hair days because we didn't know I was about to get saved and needed a testimony picture but the old drug bear picture the old picture of me in my days of rebellion as my hair was getting longer and I couldn't imagine living without drugs and rock music, but in particular without drugs. I couldn't think of going through a day without getting high but in terms of actual addictions. It was really an addiction to the needle. I just had to shoot drugs in my arms. I didn't have heroin to shoot the nightshade should something else. It should speed up and I'm shoot speed to shoot at shoot LSD anything you put in my veins anything I can convert to shoot I would do it and it's only by the grace of God and kill myself.

You see, was suicidal know that that was in it. It was I was crazy I I I thrived on undoing crazy amounts of drugs and being a stupid teenager and rebellion as opposed to smart teenager in obedience. I was a stupid teenager rebellion. The more drugs I did the cooler. I thought I was God intervene. People prayed for me. Never give up the summons alive.

You can still pray the can still be a miracle in the in the laws and God convicted me deeply of my sin for period of weeks, and brought me to repentance and wonderful freedom. But listen, I was bound by food habits a lot longer than that, I was bound by unhealthy eating habits for 59 years and it was in August, August 24, 2014, the first day of liberty for me and I've been free ever since. Transformed all to say this, God can set you free from anything. If you cry out to him. If you'll acknowledge your need and truly cry out to him, he will have mercy, and he will deliver me right back to you by the interesting Christmas poll taken at the moment. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thank you so much broadcast 866 member the bottom of the hour. I'll be talking with ex-gay leaders Stephen black about his new book, freedom realized. Also during your interview will talk about the demise of Exodus.

You say you didn't did not show the people really changed it and the leader of Exodus say some like 99% of the people he's dealt with never really changed and is that an admission of failure in this whole ex-gay ministries, a shamble you'll find out the truth about that when I speak with Stephen black a few minutes from now. So I'm doing a pole on our Facebook page yesterday Brown Facebook page right now. Facebook allows you to do simple poles with only two options so you can't give like four choices are five choices. You can only give two choices.

So I asked a simple question will do you celebrate Christmas.

Do you celebrate Christmas simple question and then I asked why or why not. I posted it yesterday morning 1016 and the infected during a service at fire before I spoke yesterday, I thought I I need to post this and just took a moment out to do it a full confession there and I I forgot that the default is is one week on Twitter. It's one day default, but on Facebook.

It's one week. So it's gonna be up there for a while longer. Do you celebrate Christmas. It already has more than 4100 votes. So it's got a lot of people voting and weighing in and then there is quite a discussion going on hundreds and hundreds of comments why we celebrate what we should and celebrated how we celebrated our own way and on Alonso get involved with that and I wrote an article that's also gotten a lot of attention in my article is is a messianic Jew reflects on Christmas messenger reflects on Christmas.

You have to understand that growing up in a Jewish home Christmas was on a major holiday for us. It was certainly not a religious holiday and then as I got older I remember I was responsible for chanting the prayers before the lighting of the Chanukah candles and then you get in a small gifts for each day for Hanukkah here. We used to say that the, the Gentiles did better. The Christian friends deliberately that a big Christmas got one big gift, but in Army I'm starting as a kid was some of the silly memories, but in Christmas that's for the others. It's for the glory of the Gentiles. The Christians suffer us then it then where I came to faith 1971 and Nancy as well 1974 was an Italian Pentecostal church and they they did not have any celebration of any particular day. Yeah, there were more people there on a Sunday morning and other days a week, but it was not considered any different than any other day the week and come Christmas time. You didn't sing any different hams you there was no Christmas decorations. There's probably Italian Pentecostal tradition that got rid of a lot of other traditions. So that's the environment in which we got saved, so celebrating Christmas just became kind of a fun family thing to do with no real spiritual meaning.

You know, just look like another birthday time and and you get to give extra gifts around to the family and have a family get-together, etc. there was no spiritual significance to it. Then we start going to another church and nearly decorated the Christmas time and they sang with joy to the world. Everything I was in church. What's this doesn't seem to that just seem something separate I is no biblical connections are in the Bible where it says to specially commemorate the birth of Jesus. There's so in the Bible, resisted due to the particular day or time of the year but you know some of the hams saying that your joy to the world different things like that they were there were great hams and we would sing them at that particular time of year and sometimes that that the passages from Matthew and Luke the birth of the Messiah would be red and it was powerfully hear them at that time of year so I fully understood.

For some, this was a spiritual time of the year, even though the evidence is against Jesus being born December 25 and I understand that December 25 was previously a pagan holiday, a pagan, a holy day to one of their deities and that the normal understanding is because so many people in the Roman world were coming to faith. Becoming Christians visible. Why not set apart this day. There were early church leaders who actually saw Jesus was born December 25. As I said, as understand the evidence is against it, but there were those who said yeah this is why believe he was born, and then others will why not take this day. Then it's a pagan holiday.

Let's make it instead of celebration for the son of God. In other words, redeem it every day ultimately belongs to the Lord. The devil has no right to a single day, a single moment on the calendar, redeem it. Now I understand that for many, Christmas is totally materialistic that the world celebrates it in a materialistic way.

I understand I understand that the a lot of customs that we bring in that have no real relevance to to the birth of Jesus in our Christmas tree were stockings that you hang up over your fireplace. Obviously that is not a way to be reminded of the birth of Jesus and all that reminds me of this chapter in this verse obviously and I've messianic Jewish friends that celebrate the Messiah's birth during Sukkoth tabernacles. They say we think the best evidence he was born. Then it says in John 114 the tabernacles among us.

But for me, if someone is glorifying the Lord on this day and celebrating the Messiah coming into the world was king of the Jews in the hope that this brings to humanity and and it's a time when the world is talking about these things in us an opportunity to share the gospel. Then great, wonderful, God bless you and and no it's not pagan to have a tree in your house. It is pagan to bow down and worship that tree.

Yes, Davitt physical tree in your house and decorate it is not pagan, in itself, it's pagan to decorated and worship. It is a God, but having said that, I am perfectly at home with people say could never celebrate Christmas. I feel it's wrong for all the following reasons and I don't do that all or redo it at a different time of the year with our family wonderful and a perfectly fine with those who say we grew up with this in its sacred.

It's a very spiritual time of the year for us in Jesus is glorified. Wonderful. My view is let each be convicted before the Lord. Right. So talking about the birth of the Messiah talking about Israel where he was born he was, not a Palestinian, Jesus was not a Palestinian board in the Palestinian city of Bethlehem. The way he's often presented by radical leaders today know he was a Jewish baby born to a Jewish burgeoning Miriam in the Jewish city of Bethlehem. Now Jerusalem has our attention once again Jerusalem, Israel has our attention once again because of Pres. Trump officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and saying yes we will move our embassy there. I remind you this is been the en bloc's policy of every president since President Clinton in 1995. He failed to act on it. George Bush failed to act on it. Barack Obama failed to act on it.

Donald Trump, to his credit is acting on it yes to his credit, he is simply recognizing reality and I believe this is something that God will bless I believe it. Personally I believe this is important in the sight of God. It is just it is right. It is righteous. This repeat this upset it many times, Jerusalem was not the capital of Palestine or a Palestinian state or Palestinian empire before the Jewish people reclaimed the land and reclaim Jerusalem as their own and and look there were times when when there was full Muslim access to Jerusalem that the population of the city was very small and in Jerusalem is not like Mecca and Medina to Muslims Jerusalem to Jews is like Mecca and Medina. To Muslims, but the narrative, the way it's put forth now is that Jerusalem is this especially holy city for Muslims and for the Palestinians and of course it has to be there capital. Why can't the capital of a Palestinian state. Two state solution, why can't it be in Ramallah, why can't it be someone else.

Why must it be in Jerusalem is a fair question to ask Scott to be in Jerusalem because that is the one city that has been the Jewish capital has to be in Jerusalem because according to Scripture.

Zechariah 12 and Zechariah 14.

Jerusalem is a city of controversy for the whole world, and it will be at the end of the age. You can even read and in books like for example Esther and Ezra Nehemiah that this controversy over Jerusalem and controversy over the Jewish people and slanderous words being spoken about Jerusalem.

This is a city that brings division and it brings things to the surface big rally in Indonesia protesting presidents will talk about it we come back here on the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. So Donald Trump is watched video on YouTube. The last is one that we did during the line of fire, where I talked about 250 rabbis in Israel, saying that he is fulfilling prophecy by officially recognizing Jerusalem and in doing so.

There's a look at all the Scriptures talk about the Lord building up science Lord rebuilding Jerusalem. This is something that traditional Jews pray for on a daily basis and have done so for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. It's the one city in Scripture where it says Isaiah 62 that God is placed watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem, who are to give him no rest until Jerusalem is the praise of all the earth. That's what he says give him no rest until Jerusalem is the praise of all the earth.

When did that stop when did that change. I saw this this prayer guide years ago, and he quoted from Isaiah. The 62nd chapter and and it said that this is prayer.

Now for the church. Everything God called the church to be know this is prayer for Jerusalem to shine like a bright light over the whole earth. Remembering this to Jerusalem, that the nations will come and Isaiah the second chapter at the end of the age that they will stream to Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 tells us the same thing to worship the God of Israel. This city will shine like a light over the whole world.

We are not to stop praying.

Until that happens now again we might see things go backwards and forwards before that happens, meaning that someone may common another president and and make some agreement to divide Jerusalem do something horrific like that, but this is deftly a right and a righteous thing so Indonesia of what will put up a picture on our YouTube feed for those watching. There was a large demonstration there. 10,000 people, according to the reports and in looking at the picture. Yahrzeit said it looks like a good 10,000. Look at the size of that platform, looking out. I think that's a realistic 10,000 and and the people were rallying what against Israel.

They were coming together to rally against Donald Trump against the decision to relocate the embassy to Jerusalem and use it yet will why do this when it's gonna create so much controversy articles is tens of thousands of Indonesians rally over Trump's Jerusalem stance and explains that that this rally was targeted for that specific purpose. Yeah, of course, in the Muslim world. There was going to be incitement in the Muslim world leaders are going to say this is wrong, saying, this is a destructive thing they're going to claim that Muslims will know or have access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, which is all gas.

One. Muslims have had control of the area Jews have not had access to holy sites in centuries past. Christians have not okay some Muslim nations and set up to be more tolerant, but in other cases, there been no axis allowed. When Jews have had control, then and in the time that the founding of Israel get Muslims find go on go up to praise the dome of the rock fine go ahead and do that without restriction. In fact, if you go is a Jew does not who you are. Determine how traditional your outfit you go to pray at the wall which hold the western wall of the co-teller Wailing Wall but just the wall so you call it in in in Heber when you go pray that you have to go past metal detectors.

There's a checkpoint with soldiers you saving thousands of Jews who prayed every day have to do that yes you are there with the tour group you have to go to that yes will dome of the rock your Muslim. You don't have to do that and when Israel recently established that because of of some violence there. There was an upper they said okay we want to go on why the Jews in their own territory in their own nation in their own state their own city have to have to go through metal detectors to to go pray at the wall that Muslims don't have to go through the same thing to to praise the dome of the rock. This is Israel. In many ways doing its best to make full access available to Muslims so they can go to the dome of the rock or nearby L oxo mosque so it is a lie that circulate circular if they're going to destroy the dome of the rock of the restricting use there. They're good, they're going to profane the sacred know under Jewish rule that won't happen when we say again, there is no historic foundation, no historic basis for Palestine that to be a state with Jerusalem as its capital, just looking over at some of the comments on our YouTube life fee there. Thanks for weighing in reminder, you can have comments with one another as you're watching, we do an audio feed on Facebook.

Feel free to weigh in and froze, listening. 866-34-TRUTH is the number to call if you feel I'm being unfair and accurately representing history just don't. I saw incredible clip and Israeli professor Orthodox Jew fluent Arab speaker is on a show on Al Jazeera. It is in all Arabic show you have other Muslims on the there's a shake someone else on their and he completely demolishes the arguments he says, looking out Jerusalem, calling it out could the whole evening the holy city. That's because originally it was it was so what dates and will cut us that that it was originally the place of the holy Temple Bay to McDonald's and the reasons everybody knows this was originally the place of the holy Temple and Ellen Palestinians are well know know it's not true. This is the new argument. Jews have no ancient connection to Jerusalem. There is never a temple there.

This is one of the allies.

It's been put forth for a while now will in point of fact, even in Arabic it goes back to acknowledging that he demolishes their views and then when asked about PC know this is likely to be said we don't want this with you guys will want peace with their will, because our world is not peace Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other that the vast majority of those killed by radical Muslims or other Muslims and Iran attacking other Muslims around the world and then tribal warfare in Libyan Yemen, etc. he said you don't have peace out how we can have peace with you if you don't have peace among yourselves. I quoted someone from decades ago making that statement in my poker hand stained with blood of most leaders and we do not have peace in the Muslim Arab world put Jerusalem put Israel aside, that's reality.

You and Haggai. The first chapter when the people of Judah got back to the old being the top the temple. They had been using money for themselves first and take care of their own needs first in God's it's never enough. You never have enough. Do you know you don't but from the day they started building the temple. From that point on, God sent from this day I will bless you, so I'm curious to see. Maybe I'm just speculating maybe they'll be signs of tangible blessing. Pres. Trump is a result of him doing the right thing concerning Jerusalem, which honors the Lord and is right for the Middle East, it's best to move forward with the peace process based on reality. Maybe the pack passing of the tax reform bill will will be something that brings favorite. Maybe. Maybe I'm speculating will be a moderation in the way he does certain things to not make as many enemies's popularity shall say we shall sing right back with Stephen black about realized coming out.

It's the line of fire with your host activist author internationals leader and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown is there really such a thing as literally, the homosexual practice is this just a myth. We selling snake oil to people that we see Jesus can really change, the more counseling can really help them or are these desires attraction.

So in a so deep, so immutable that nothing can ever change the net, sexual orientation, romantic attraction, sexual desires. These things are just like skin color and you are what you are rooster hope for transformation or even just modification of behavior and desire through the gospel or through counseling.

My guest Stephen black has written the new book freedom realized Joe Dallas wrote the forward to it. It was my joy to write an endorsement for subtitle finding freedom from homosexuality and living a life free from labels Siemens executive director first stone ministries and he serves as chairman of the board of directors for restoring hope network which is formed in 2012 to supply a biblically Orthodox network of ministries to the sexually broken after the collapse and closure of Exodus International.

If you have a question for Stephen for your own life or for someone close to her cause 866-34-TRUTH for truth, or if you're watching on our live YouTube feed. You can post your question for Stephen there and will try to take some questions a little bit later in the broadcast. A Stephen welcome back to want to fire great to have you on.

There is always a pleasure sure appreciate it.

Now Stephen, there's a lot I want to talk to you about, but let's just start with the fundamental question do people really change can Jesus not only deliver someone from homosexual practice, but actually change their desires are sent asking too much. Conclusively, without a shadow of about the gospel is transformative and people do in fact change in the reality is we had 1200 client folders up in a storage room and in 2012. The question began. Where are all these people as a result of what Ellen Chambers and others were saying that nobody can change your 99.9% no. So that got us stirred up and I put together a database and we were able to make contact of 500 people that have been for our ministry over the last 25 years and with that we were able to get out of the 500 hundred and 85 of them to fill out a pretty extensive survey online anonymously and you know anybody knows anything about doing surveys of like pulling teeth to get people to do on and we got hundred 95 of those people and more than 70% of those people have gone on to live a lie completely surrender to Jesus Christ, free from any kind of a label they don't look where a Christian, they don't wear ex-gay they've gone on surrendered and that is also my own story by own testimony so absolutely conclusively people are finding lasting item from a lifestyle identified as gay or homosexual, I see your your identity, even though we can talk about you being an ex-gay leader, your identities are a child of God love of Jesus and also a husband and also a father Stephen just 30 seconds before the break. Freedom realized is that for everyone to read or just someone struggling with sexual brokenness know there's actually product will help her, ministry leaders, and in the survey but certainly for the struggle are but also real practical help on how to minister wonderful all right friends. We got a lot to talk about want to find out about Stephen's own story and get the behind the scenes.

Truth as far as what happened with the collapse of Exodus International and how it ties in with the hyper grace message. We will be right back over and it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown I'm speaking today black.

What I love about Stephen is he is unashamedly bold and preaching Jesus in preaching holiness in preaching the gospel without compromise and like me, he finds fault with a superficial gospel message that bypasses the cross were talking about a radical salvation from sin into salvation in Jesus. Stephen's new book freedom realized finding freedom from homosexuality and living a life free from labels Stephen it was many years ago when intranet was fairly new and I was witnessing to someone in a chat room that I referenced a friend of mine would come out of homosexuality and is the first time I heard people say no that's impossible. He's either bisexual or he was suppressing his his real nature and and over the years, I realize, wait a second.

If someone used to be an alcoholic and they still find that they they would like alcohol but they say no to it and they haven't had a drink in 20 years we would we would be excited about that.

But somehow when it comes to someone coming out of homosexuality. If they ever have a single slot of for one moment or ever attractive for a split second to the same sex.

It's judged a failure wears you know many people that are free that our loving life enjoying life free from the bondage of the past and you know maybe every so often I can have a temptation, but since when did that ever disqualify someone from being really changed the art. Nobody given the reality of the epic good analogy with dealing with alcoholism. There were reality is that even we know when people get older and they were perfect addicts.

They were addicted to pornography and find freedom from like the pine by sexuality and so why can't somebody make a decision or her change and we actually even theater in Hollywood. You got Ellen degenerate fishing. She came out with and has an know now and is living with a man with children and that living a heterosexual existence.

Change happens all the time. Michael it really does and I have witnessed it firsthand for over 30 years I began ministering within three years of my walk with Jesus ample time here in first and personal ministry for 25 years and I've literally seen hundreds of personally that have gone through transformation of the idea that people don't change is really completely ridiculous that the ridiculous. Well, what about in your own life. Stephen, when did you first think that you were gay and and can you trace it back to anything in your background or past all certainly my when you look at the common causality of homosexuality in front of a poster child for that.

Unfortunately, the perception brokenness in early childhood development and sexual abuse. Graphic exposure to pornography.

So by the time I was a teenager I was already walled off from my daddy was out of out of the picture.

I have some of the what we call, you know, defensive detachment is so very very common causes of the family breakdown arrested emotional development. The places where there is no phantom brokenness in the family that has entered and is very common certainly common in my my history though by the time I was in puberty. You know they were calling me 50 square bag it being be you know it was like well they're saying something and thought it must be true. I'm attracted to my thing back so I must be gay and I just kind of embraced it spiraled into a place of real depression was gonna take my lie. I didn't know anything about a gay community had been raised in a Catholic environment Catholic parochial school in and didn't know about your gay people. And then this guy kinda showed me the ropes and turn me out and introduced me to the gay community in a broader sense of relief and so I entered in through homosexuality and in being gay identified at age 14 I went to bed now I'm just going wow spent eight years the last six of those were screamingly dark and very perverse budget. No that I could have any other desire outside it being day of the idea that someone can't change and I'm telling you, I have really gone through transformation of my life where I really do not have temptation at all towards my thing that that's not true of most of the men I minister to them. People change of bearing levels and all other areas of my temptation is just part of the fallen nature and of course people are going to be tempted. But to say that people can't change or change the direction of their life is is really actually kinda cruel, but love at all. Yeah, it isn't yet it claims to be loving it. It claims to combat false hope and things like that. But no, and in reality it's not love because were not telling the truth.

Jesus is the sense that you free your free indeed. How are you been married now Stephen 31 years going to work on it or 30 year end and kids. Yes, I have three adult children, one in heaven. We lost purity.

Actually the very day I resigned from Exeter and that was a trial and it help and then I have four grandchildren and clinical critics, and when you talk in the subtitle of your book freedom realized about living without labels 171 what's happening in the church. And third, the mixture of this higher learning idea even across all seminary and educational Christian education with division of human sexuality having an orientation rather than a biblical concept of male and female here taking a construct or teaching of psychology called orientation and many kits, mixed with this hyper grace, teaching, and on the other side of that you have bearing levels of what we call male gay Christianity and these people are actually living with label and identity that is a a broken unnatural construct of the fall of humanity, and what's happening with that is that causes confusion. It causes confusion in the church people are unfortunately biblically illiterate when it comes to the end and wants to be labeled a homophobe, a big, good. You know hateful night and so that's what a lot of pastors are dealing with and for now this onslaught of gay Christianity and even some really well-meaning theologian are embracing this idea that you can be gay and Christian and it's really at the service to not only the people that are suffering but also to the entire church of Jesus Christ because it really does so confusion social life without label you have labeled. We only have one identification and that which he so on the one hand there is the all-out deception that says you can practice homosexuality, you can live with your partner be caught, married your partner and you can live holy lives together because love is love. So there's that that full-blown all-out deception and and then there is, in some cases well intended deception. In other words, the people, the people mean well with it and they say will look your gay if you're if you been attracted to the same sex.

That's part of your identity know you can practice homosexuality, butcher identifies it take to get Christian but again were taking something from the world as opposed like everyone struggles with something some service with recent struggles with anger. So it's tempted to note that heterosexual adultery is that we identify the greedy Christian I'm adulterous Christian I'm on the short tempered, Christian, or resemble follower of Jesus.

And yes, I've struggled this area here of struggled with food spending habits. I've struggled with this deep insecure. I've struggled with a private deep down I want to hurt people is is no that is not our identity that something we struggle with so amen what you're saying loud and clear.

Let me ask one question that I do want to shift over to what happened with Exodus in and get the truth out to ensure that everyone is is aware of it. You talked about the darkness you lived in David Kyle Foster was on my radio show few years ago and he talked about not just be involved homosexuality, but being addicted to pornography. Being addicted to drugs. Even given to prostitution and a lesbian woman wrote it and she said my part and I've never done drugs. We we've we've never gotten drunk, you know, we live a good life raising are combined in a family of of four together.

We don't we don't relate to that. What would you say the summers as well.

Your expressively dark but mine hasn't been so dark while what I would say that there is really only one standard that God and it. There are varying levels of people that come through our ministering matter fact I would pay more than 90% of the people that go to one of our type of ministry there actually believer there there people in the church and they didn't live the really dark CD life of homosexuality that they become Foster and myself live so there was a lot of you know the Catholicism mixture in mind my story, but there most of the people that we minister to actually are living what what a lot of people would think God the lies, but falling short of God's standards practicing homosexuality struggling with something else to help them with the new book freedom realized the author Steve by getting your minded really help you file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. My guess why Christian network that was raised up to help people deal with sexual brokenness, same-sex attraction, etc. after the demise of Exodus, which was a network of ministries that have been doing everything for years.

His new book, freedom realized I encourage you to get the book. Read it you'll find it candid, revealing helpful scripturally based and full of hope Stephen before we talk about really happen in Exodus some questions from our YouTube viewers. John wants to know if you think demons cause homosexuality yes and no.

There is no way an element of demonic activity around all sinful behavior. But the reality is that that began in the garden and we have a propensity or nature toward Dan and so most of what we see in the development of a person is environmental factors, and then of course there's always going to be the work Satan around that and then for the people that actually go into homosexuality and began practicing that lifestyle, then yes, in fact, there's going to be demonic oppression involved in their lives. All right. Another question on YouTube is possible for someone to change in terms of sexual desires romantic attractions without being saved that the good question. I mean, if a person is willful enough and we know that through some of the reparative therapy through North. There have been people that had a Jewish offspring and even a psychological based offering, and that they will experience some great levels of change, but personally in my ministry and in my what I have seen upfront close as I don't see the real intricacies of the heart and the mind. The soul actually experiencing transformation without the power of the Holy Spirit got it and that's ultimately we are recommending and encouraging North by the way is Association of therapists, psychologist, counselor, psychiatrist, that had left the various associations of psychologists and psychiatrists when they normalized homosexuality and homosexual practice I Stephen folks can read the book freedom realized to get all the details will just give the quick overview you were an insider.

You were a board member with Exodus. I was an outsider, but I had participated in conferences with Exodus because of my burden to deal with issues in the society and equip the church so Exodus was without a ministry itself is much as a network of ministries that help people deal with same-sex attraction. So this was well known you to send someone to the Exodus website and then Exodus collapsed and and gay activists and their allies are saying this proves that no one ever changes the head of Exodus admits no one ever changes. You were there, behind the scenes tell us the truth of what really happened and how this ties in with a false hyper grace influence hyper grace influence was unfortunately Alan Chambers after and mentor and even himself. Clark equipment called Alan like he was also the chairman of the board of accident and his influence started about 2000 and any with this new revelation of divine even called for a divine revelation that surpasses even the reformers that that they got a revelation of grace what they call pure gray and so there was that that was taking place this this antinomianism, which is hyper grace mixing with Alan being able to take some proactive business very business savvy Park with Ms. than they were able to change the board structure where the directors of the network were no longer empowered and so now Alan was able to take control of the board and then a big eventually became a ministry of Alan Chambers but it was just a home office that the networking office and just like amp. All over restored hope network. She is there to serve the network of ministries, that do the frontline work and a lot of people even the gay activists all Exodus closed-end and I will like no exit of the office but not the work of ministry, all the frontline ministries were still doing you know pastoral care and an and the more mature ministries like birthstone outpost desert Street.

Some of the ministries that have been around for 40 years.

We are still here were still in the spring were still helping people in this new network bringing those ministries again restored hope network and if you looking for resources you struggling or know someone struggling in these areas is a great place to go restored hope network on your website. So Stephen were talking publicly and plainly because both of us have addressed these things privately and publicly. We've reached out to people involved, but there's a statement you said you heard from Pastor Whitten to Mike reached out and said let's let's dialogue about our differences, I wrote my book hyper grace and quoted him in setting the recording human is to this day by doors open for interaction. But he made a statement at a conference you are attending that that really caused you concern. Can you give the adjuster that it was and Ridgecrest. I mean literally that the grace of God was so good that it covered. Even people that would go practice with the view that and for you to be a practicing sexually immoral person and God's grace would cover that and he also said that first John chapter. Chapter 1 verse nine was not written to Christian anymore and you don't need to confess your stem any longer will that put automatically just completely put people in the bonded, especially baby Christian that really do need to be you regularly confessing their standing getting gaining a clear conscience yeah and and it's one thing if you say look, no matter how far you fell no matter what you've done, no matter how ugly your sin.

God can forgive you and the grace of God can wipe that way. It's another thing to tell someone struggling no matter how you live. It doesn't matter it's I can affect your relationship with God and you don't even need to confess your sin time in opening the door so so what happened was ultimately that Exodus shut down because it in God's sight. Exodus was no longer doing what God called to do if if you can't say that people are really changing. If you've got an exaggerated message of grace at what in the world, or even doing so. Thankfully, other ministries broke away some of the best known ministries helping people sexual brokenness in the country first stone being one of them and people are continuing to get set free and and Stephen were just about out of time here but what blesses me is more and more churches.

Just understand hey the gospel love counseling patients. They'll help anybody, including those struggling with homosexuality's. I wanted to people all over just tell me their story and they're just in local churches all over because it's the gospel of Jesus in a community setting that can bring all the change people in the right got a really small little acronym I use my book got have ab and everybody want to better help them spiritually.

Accountability alive build weather and living in community and accountability boundary.

But you gotta live a life filled with boundaries, especially with technology, people, places and things yet and that is spiritually developed devoted live practicing spiritual warfare. All of you heard of friends.

Everybody wants adds hearsay get the get the book freedom realized that I Stephen but will be back with you tomorrow.


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