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Dr. Brown Speaks with Joel Richardson About the Mystery of Catastrophe

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
November 21, 2018 9:15 pm

Dr. Brown Speaks with Joel Richardson About the Mystery of Catastrophe

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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November 21, 2018 9:15 pm

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Join me today for a special interview with author Joel Richardson will talk about God's redemptive purposes. In the midst of end times catastrophes stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks much for joining us on today's line of fire broadcast. I will be joined at the bottom of the hour by author Joel Richardson. Maybe you read some of his books about the Islamic antichrist, or about millennial promises to Israel, fascinating discussion about God's redemptive purposes.

In the midst of last days catastrophes and as as we talked yesterday about the California fires and got an article about that written with sensitivity in light of the tremendous human loss in great human suffering us can be important. Interview. But before we get to that one cover a couple different things with you. Phone lines are open 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH 878841 talk to about the migrant caravan the perspective from a missionary living in Honduras many years ago I was preaching in walrus Mexico and I was speaking to the pastor of the church there was a church of about 8000 people in walrus and he was an American who had been living and working in serving in Mexico for probably 40 years so was in El Paso Texas was in walrus back-and-forth all the time but serving the people of Mexico for decades and I asked him how he felt about illegal aliens coming into America and he was adamant he was adamant peace.

In general, the laws they have to break to do that cannot wrong that he was adamant and and or others with them in Mexico who were adamant about it as well the one hand we want to have compassion on those who have legitimate need and would qualify as refugees, to whom read over and over our borders to become productive citizens of America. On the other hand it, we are a nation of laws and dislike you close your door at night you lock your car door you do things like that just like there's a wall around the Vatican. I'm either there is certain things that these things are put in place for protection rights, common sense, so there's an article on the stream by Jennifer silly canalis. Her first article we shared hundreds of thousands of times it was shared over 400,000 times on Facebook from the street. Article was previously posted in a newspaper somewhere editor founded posted on screen the ceiling completely viral and this was woman living in real poverty by choice with family raising children.

I think some not her own and is caring for the needy and and the family suffering and her husband being beaten and just coming. It was incredible story but she's got a follow-up article. The only share with you all right so this is a missionary in Honduras don't validate anarchy here by letting the caravan. It is an American woman living as an American living in Honduras, giving herself to the people of Honduras. This is what she says a few days ago, but under husband returned to her rural mission property in one of our family bikes. He made a quick trip down the long gravel road into the more populated part of our Honduran town as he pulled up next to me. I greeted him warmly. On my way to the weekly chess class I teach the youth in our school is an easy facial expression immediately caught me off guard.

His face normally reflects reopen easy join inspires the trust of those around him.

Beads of sweat covered his face assisted great uneasiness within them while he wasn't saying anything.

I stopped in my tracks are dusty, long front on a dusty front lawn was nice grass shorts and swung down for many soccer games and estimate it happen. He tried to gently shoot me off to my class.

I was really running a few minutes late.

I refuse to leave aside until he told me what it happened. With a bit more probing and persistency gave in and shared in a hushed, almost nervous voice of dismissing her neighbors with his other drugs to the local kids got pretty mad told him to leave her students along the adjuster laughing. I really riled up, but you will be okay but can kill you.

I asked, instinctively knowing how dangerous can it can be in Honduras to become anyone's enemy. He hesitated beads of sweat probably combination of nerves in the blistering heat continue to populate is for.

Then he answered me.

Surely, the foreskin, not his time. He knows he has to answer this way to put my own mind at ease and he was just convincing enough to do so.

This time I knew exactly which house he was talking about and why he taken matters into his own hands. Get ready call the local police several times about the police assured them casually if they really knew the location of the house and the illegal activity going on there. The nonchalant tone and ensuing in action and one thing they had no move nor did they plan to do so because it was try to look out for the best interest of our local students and protect them from danger. He left his conversations with the police feeling bewildered at their apathy and frustrated with her total lack of initiative leave is not at all surprised.

This is generally been the reaction or lack thereof, that we arouse from the Honduran police in times of need. My husband Christian pianist to organize few cars and has a passion for mentoring at risk teens was kidnapped by local gang members. Two years ago and literally beaten within an inch of his life. The organized group had mistaken for someone from an enemy gang run a marriage retreat is the time he left our cabin in the early morning to go walking pray he was quietly walking your remote stream and they found him assuming it's one and violently sweep them off to their hideout up in the mounds with a beating for several hours with death music blasting my husband tightly gagged each man took turns hitting my husband with Rod's shoes and the like repeatedly threatened him with death.

He admitted that he was ready to they take his life miraculously let them go stumbling through an expansive pine field are the Milwaukee made the journey to highly police station was able to find help.

This literally showed up in the police car is a little and we had been staying in close ripped his body been from pain and completely dirty and bloodied with this weakened boy like grin on his face. Despite all the odds photos trudging through dense fog the entire day we took him to the emergency room, accompanied by family friend into very kind police officers.

I kept thinking is not the police's job to company victims to hospitals. The police's job is to investigate the crime to seek out the perpetrators and to do justice wasting time here should be on the streets and acting justice that are standard desperately undersupplied hospital.

I stared numbly of the police officers as they help my husband stand up and lie down.

The various patient tables.

I couldn't help thinking thank you for your kindness and concern, which is evident heartwarming, but these will do your job. Please go hunt those guys down so they don't beat anyone else by his misery told you exactly where they were. Please do something you are the police by an uncovered hospital bed. Next, my husband was another young man in similar shape with no intended to him. He had huge bleeding wounds on his face and body. I made eye contact with him but didn't dare ask what happened to him despite urging the two police officers made no promise to help the police action was ever taken the neighborhood with a gang be my husband almost to death remains a very dangerous area dominated by lawlessness. She continues a Honduran could tell countless of the stories of corruption like a police response always to disorder, and despair, and national level.

Currently in international audience is watching on television. Will we see played out daily that is large masses with very little respect for laws, boundaries and authority.

They act as they do.

A large part because they have not had a healthy authority trust really understand that actual consequences. Weight will embrace the law. I know that my experience is very limited and that my viewpoint is not shared by all Hondurans are Americans. We live here know too many cases in which the Honduran law is not respected or upheld to me cases in which no real consequences or Delta. The lawbreakers same people commit violent crimes over and over again, even as the police are fully informed to do nothing. This creates confusion, chaos and even desperation. I work alongside of highly educated, well-informed Hondurans every day. In the context of a mission school. I hear and agree with their diverse opinions on the various challenges endurance faces.

We understand the the migrant caravan to be a desperate cart cry for help. We know that the caravan represents many Hondurans seeking public political change and increase security for this country which it desperately needs but is simply untrue that the answer for a safer, more prosperous Honduras is that thousand should leave a legally is a very complex matter and I do not claim to be an expert to hold all the answers, but I do affirm that the problem largely lies in the lack of public order in Honduras. This change must be enacted from the top down. The current lack of order leads to the formation of citizens who have very little respect for laws and for one another.

They in turn wreak havoc on the country's law-abiding citizens were powerless to stop them. The caravan is simply the visible result of the chaos that occurs on endurance oil daily limit immigrants past United States board will only cause further damage to Honduras. The US want to validate the abounding belief that laws can be broken and authority disrespected with no unfavorable results.

This will only increase the already strong anarchy in Honduras address these real justice discipline in a defined set of laws and punishment that actually gets refilled.

This would most likely require the help of and overseeing transparent international community is in Doris is not a babel of foster justice and create a prosperous nation alone rather than receive several thousand of arrived at the borders help us restore the millions that remain in the country.

The solution is not migrant caravan escaping a myriad of problems, but in the caravan pass across the board will most likely lead to more caravans in the future and instead we need long-term new long-term solutions right here on endurance or by the way, I should just check the end of the article to confirm the date details so Jennifer silly canalis is an American citizen who served as a missionary in Honduras full-time since 2012 Jasmine Darwin forced the parents to seven precious enduring children ages 10 to 18 and serve as executive directors and teachers of the living waters ranch mission school for local risk youth. She maintains a blog at hidden treasures in Honduras. That's up on the screen. You know Street there might latest article.

Where was God when California burned which builds on some of the things we shared on the broadcast yesterday with with love, sensitivity, and with care. Okay, why what I take the time to read that to you. I do not comment much on issues them to do the migration.

Why one reason is on that expert on another reason is can focus on everything. The reason is God is not called me particularly to address those issues and there are others that are doing a fine job of addressing so I'm not trying to be a jack of all trades.

An expert on all things you hear me talk very little about the economy.

For example, course economy matters, but the mire of expertise or burden or calling in their plenty fine economists out there but II share this with you because often we don't think anything about the home country, which they met the people or the criminals, among them the needy people among them should what is Mexico think about them. People Mexico happy to have them there and we don't think they what about the home front in Honduras and according to Rev. Samuel Rodriguez leading Hispanic evangelical spokesman here in America. He said that that they have firsthand information that some of the caravan was stirred by left-wing activists in Honduras. So was just humanitarian thing in their many needs an address as sister explains to us, but often their larger perspective set of present. This is an easy answer to anything. In fact, raises more issues.

More difficult issues rather significant perspectives and boy the nations of the world be the gospel in any justice they need wisdom they need right over effect the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown two minutes I'll be enjoying the truly sad and talking about his brand-new book really interested to have this conversation with him first. I received an email was forwarded to me this morning.

Dr. Brown I'm an officer with the Salvation Army and I'm not going to say where right. I don't know if you're aware that officers are also ordained ministers in the Wesley and Holiness tradition. Salvation Army started in 1865 with the mission to win the world to Jesus Christ recently, the international leadership of the Salvation Army made a decision that officer should not be allowed to post on the social media on the topics of abortion and LGBT Q marriage is therefore also discouraged from doing so.

I feel this is a devastating move.

There are so many ministers and congregations in the Salvation Army of America that they are silencing a significant amount of clergy. With this move on issues that are very much related to the gospel. Tart startup starts as a rewritten on this and I assure you, his report is accurate. Please comment on this. We need your voice of moral guidance.

I believe an open letter from a voice like yours may be appropriate, but any response will be helpful right want to go to the Scott stars article in the moment, but some of you hearing that may be confused to say Salvation Army once I got to do with the gospel and why would even care about issues like abortion or same-sex quote marriage work. Salvation Army just collects money to feed the poor Salvation Army just helps people, helps the needy and the old Christmas time they stand in front of stores in the ring the bells and and and and give them money can you change when you leave the store you put a dollar bill in their whatever and they raise hundreds of millions or billions dollars, whatever they do is give that to the poor and the needy.

And so, what's that got to do with the gospel as far as brief salvation or okay I didn't know about the origins of the Salvation Army until the ladies and it was as I got close with Leonard Ravenhill and he gave me a set of books he and his wife Martha gave gave Nancy me a set of books called aggressive Christianity six lines of sermons by Catherine Booth, a member that we have them just sitting in this this little table that was it in the kitchen and when I would walk past the my I would see in my minds eye steam coming out of. I mean they were they were passionate hot red red hot gospel and William Booth's whole burden to go to sinners go to the worst a written account that that he traveled over to Australia and had his first night of meetings and he's an older man. At this point it's quite a journey by boat to get over is to Australia and he has the opening night's meeting and that the the meeting hall was packed out and wonderfully successful meeting and William Booth is where the prostitutes were the drunkards where the then those the people I came for the church people so they went out on the streets and they got in all these other people than Booth breached the blessed relive for so he felt this tremendous burden. His wife Catherine to bring the gospel to the worst of sinners to the most helpless of sinners to the outcast and into go into the neediest parts of London. I mean crime-ridden and and and and that rat infested, poverty-stricken and terrible needs.

Adjust unimaginable suffering on a daily basis and to bring the gospel there and for him. Of course it's is one of the saying that the same gospel that offers forgiveness offers a offers help the suffering people. You don't come of the Bible in one hand and food in the other and say right here is the message of Jesus underneath the food will you start the death notice here is the message of Jesus and he is the food you need to live because God cares about. So Salvation Army was ablaze and Salvation Army workers when around the world preaching the gospel. Many of them living sacrificially great holiness preachers among them Samuel Logan Pringle was one of my favorite early Salvation Army as a holiness preacher. In fact, if I recall his definition of holiness was pure love to get you thinking of things from a different angle and it's over the decades that Salvation Army has become known to most as an exclusively humanitarian group is of Christian origin but not a gospel preaching group will my thinking continued to change about the Salvation Army as I began to meet Salvation Army officers over the years and is one of the grants for ministry school join the Salvation Army and this a gospel preaching man. Yet there they where the Army outfits so they have these different rankings.

That's just their system but I'm in there, gospel preaching Jesus loving word reviewing people and there been some conflicts if I recall was in Australia that there were some conflicts over this in terms of ethical issues or potential compromise on same-sex quote marriage. I remember being in China with 40 evangelical leaders meeting with Chinese leaders a few years back at the invitation of Franklin Graham and one of the leaders was a former head of the Salvation Army. We talked extensively about these things, but this man was a committed believer, a God honoring believer is not a Christian in name only. He was he was a he was a believer in and strongly committed to the Lord, but obviously if you're if your bottom line is we want to receive the maximum amount of funds to give to help the poor and needy around the world which the Salvation Army does beautifully and wonderfully. We want to do this in order to do this. Were going to avoid all social controversies then then I can understand the motivation but you can gospel preachers are you good people that that feel that their flocks or or confuse that their followers are confuse they need to win they need to give Scripture they need to give truth here and are you like and trust God that you can do the right thing and he can bring in the funds anyway. So Todd Starnes has an exclusive article came out two days ago.

Salvation Army warns officers to stop posting about gay marriage is is this if you run into Salvation Army bellringer this Christmas season. Don't strike up a conversation about Pres. Crump or gay marriage, Salvation Army, personnel been told to stop posting their opinions about gay marriage, abortion or anything political or social media because it might reflect poorly on the organization going to an internal email and guidelines obtained by the Todd Starnes radio show and there Salvation Army personnel reached out to me to express their concerns that the organization is embroiled in a battle between biblical conservatives and progressives they fear. The progressives are winning the day go political or social opinion such as hot topics like LGBT Q marriage officer housing abortion should not be included in profiles and offices should refrain from posting anything that expresses a political view the guidelines for Salvation Army officers, state the Salvation Army introduced new social media media guidelines to combat" increased number of complaints regarding comments made on social media by Salvation Army officers and staff. This is a threat to reputational fundraising efforts and ultimately our ability to serve people in need, and the article goes on from there. Okay, on the one hand, I understand the motivation is much as I differ with where it's going understand the motivation to look our mission that this picture this okay. I I'm at a food distribution truck and feeding homeless people and is the only mission that this that this is all the one and only thing on their to do is to get food to the homeless people what you think about Pres. Crump before. That's really not the issue. Why would you vote for Hillary are dolled up this really not the issue. I want to know where you stand on the migrant caravan visits that the hundred other things. That's not the issue is, I've got food to deliver to these homeless people and that that's why I'm here and and I can engage a lengthy discussion about it because I ago you food to the homes while I want to know, I'm giving my money to you all know where you stand on the present. Really, I'm not material because we give the money to me is gone more by more sandwiches for the homeless people and give it to them. I understand the mentality, the problem is that that Salvation Army's history and purpose was first and foremost gospel preaching organization that then also got involved in meeting the needs of individuals coming in and we both even try to come up with a plan of fear of taking the poorest of the poor from England and bring them somewhere else and that not everything was was the best plan with the overall heart. The overall intent. The activities that wonderfully conceived and and living out the gospel, but it was preaching Jesus first helping the needy. Second, although they would go hand-in-hand and often the way you preach the gospel is by helping the needy but was never to the exclusion of preaching the gospel and and again. Salvation Army officers are not secular people there gospel ordained people. They are clergy to use our our common terms.

All right yeah I completely percolated distinction gossip.

That's the understatement of say okay so to tell them you can't post on controversial issues.

So it will have top timeout, so you only feed the poor. That's good good to feed the poor, but but I can address the slaughter of the unborn. So care for the poor, care for the needy Moana, but I can't. I can address crimes against the unborn can address the slaughter's and babies like I can talk about feeding a poor person here, but not coming maybe here not to do that and and I'm supposed to preach the Bible and hold to biblical ethics.

But when my flock and people and followers are confused about homosexuality and Lucinda marriage I'm not allowed to comment on those things. I could understand saying please don't post anything about politics locates is overlapped thing, but I can understand the distinction so you can post a thing about abortion in your Wesley in holiness, ordained clergy member serving the organization founded by William and Catherine Booth that that scary. So keep giving giving the Salvation Army or other places to help the poor and the needy display for the Salvation Army to get this going good in the days ahead will be right back until the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice aboard cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown (the line of my most recent article that I wrote asked the question what was God when California burns to the question of God's activity or inactivity during the tragic California forest fires of taken so many lives that articles live on the stream and elsewhere online and we always treat subjects like this with great care. Talked about the subject on the radio yesterday because it's not just theology.

Talk about human lives, terrible suffering, so when we we try to play God. We need to be very careful not speak beyond what we know we get be here to bring words of comfort and redemption vault. In light of what we've been talking about what I just wrote about got a fascinating guest with a fascinating book, Joel Richardson has been on with us before we talked about end time prophecy is the possibility of Islamic antichrist God's future for Israel, but he has a brand-new book called the mystery of catastrophe which presents a clear biblical case for God's plans and purposes amidst tragedy in the book is just out now so Joel welcome back to the line of fire. Thanks much for joining us. Brown think what brought me back so Joel how did you get to this subject a little bit different than some of your prophetic books, but on the other hand with overlap because imagine you expect to see more more shaking as we get closer and closer to the end of the age yeah will. There are some similarities in the book written about your lip young time, but even more so more than an eschatological book at the very initial book of the birdhouse spoke look at more than just sort of what's going to happen in the last days, but in the light of what's going to happen. How should we respond what should our primary art' what? We should be asking that sort of thing so this is probably the most application all project that I've been part of. And because of that I actually feel about probably the most important and enjoyable wrestling with issues like this is not easy if we just get caught up in in sociology and an abstraction. While people are dying that then really insensitive. On the other hand, if we focus so much on on human beings and loose divine perspective than that we don't really have an answer.

How did you strike a balance between trying to have God's perspective and God's heart, while at the same time looking at real human need. So were going with current event required by California law. In situations like that pretty much background factors can be all kinds of Christians out there that are going to be arguing whether or not this is the punishment of God.

The judgment of God on California or whether or not it. The you know the plan looked statement in this sort of thing you can surround those debates forever or what they were talking about the caravan felt America. You can have everyone arguing from the writer on the left, and I will surely Letterman would not let men what right no political response and what were trying to do is they look, we can have those discussions, we can have those discussions forever. But the real question that we should be asking is in the midst of tragedy. What might God be doing what of the gospel opportunity. So it's really just miserable trying to change the questions that are being out would translate if these things are going to increase before the return of Jesus to order three more natural and man-made disasters, then what should our our attitude. Do you know we live in an age right now are every everything revolves around the political debate and will not play in the political debate is not relevant. It's very relevant has real-world implication. But as Christians, as followers of Jesus we need to be looking at the bigger the larger redemptive purposes behind all of it to say how can we partner with God.

In light of all the things that are are unfolding in Europe right now and think that will be increasingly unfolding in their you know we have a paradigm we see Jesus dealing with certain situations. For example, in John nine that I included in my article and the caller referenced the show yesterday were that he and the disciples see a man born blind and the disciples based on their Jewish theology and Old Testament president asked to send this manners parents that he was born blind to see somebody send specifically get this result. Maybe the man sinned in the womb of his parents and and Jesus first dismisses that in this case since is neither this man sinned.

There was parents that he was born blind basis, but this happened to the works of God might be made manifest those by healing the man so was interesting, as is Jesus never says will the reasons blind is XYZ or God did it or whatever it's part of the fallen human race is anything as much of the devil, but it's an occasion through which God can be glorified so what you're saying is you we we do know that there is there's been catastrophe on the earth as long as the earth is been here. It seems from Scripture that this can be increasing shaking as we get closer to the end of the age. Huckabee REIT peewee. How can we be redemptive in the midst of it.

So let's let's start to break this down. You start off in your in your book with also help from Nathan Graves laying out a biblical theology of catastrophe what what in the world is a biblical theology of catastrophe were beginning with the assumption they were outgrowing their little John Piper.

You know were were mirroring some of the things that we perk over the years on which of the theology of understanding the dark ultimate purpose that you would be glorified. You'd be glorified throughout history. Will wrote the boat in a week.

We go back to the beginning you look at different than I think one of the sacred examples in the biblical record story of Joseph now you know what we know in retrospect that when all is that done in the Joseph looks at his brothers. Basically all you guys pulled me into slavery forgiveness excuses, but what you intended for evil God intended for good. He intended that in order for to prepare basically salvation for all of you so that I could go ahead and and and help save you guys now if you go back to the years the years.

The Joseph was your living difficulty in everything and anything will God agreement people getting all expect that what you're your translator thought support human trafficking and other sort of bringing it all in A ridiculous argument, but if you step back and recognize that God has always had a larger redemptive carpet. Then you start asking different questions you think in the midst of this difficult thing.

The situation which means that the lot by the hand of Satan will rock by the hand of evil men. What might God be doing for his larger redemptive purposes. The really retraced a lot of examples of catastrophe brought redemptive history only show that principal aerobically. 28. You know he causes all things worked out good of those that love them and ultimately for his own glory. Going redemptive purposes. We show that that's consistent throughout history.

If that's the case then we should look for that in our day as well, so be parallel to the idea that there is no resurrection without crucifixion. First, or the modern history of Israel born out of the ashes of the Holocaust that God often brings life out of death and hope out of despair. And then that often the hopeless and is just the beginning of something filled with hope and you see those assess parallels Yamane and you know it gets interesting. You brought your throughout of divine healing.

You know you your your charismatic I'm charismatic. I believe that the church needs to have installed theology yelling, but I also believe the charismatic church also needs to have a pretty good theology of suffering and the and understand that you look if it puts down to it's not always simple, but it's down to know i.e. enter the kingdom with a gimpy foot but a humble heart or chemical for humble heart any day of the week and so you know that again it's an overly simplified you notes. It's not often not simple but God has used heart issues. First, and if he can if he can bring about, you know, the glory of the domain and further salvation to healing that, but often find you know he doesn't do sometimes we have the site have the theology to physically just jump through certain hoops thing onto these different principal and God will always feel at every single time.

It always brought this birthday in the fact of the matter is that the biblical record doesn't bear that out. Now, in the age to come at the resurrection.

Everyone in Christ login you'll know when leaving the healing meeting with her headache 30% better. Everyone getting healed. Eventually, but sometimes in this age he allowed a lot of pain a lot of suffering and that's exactly what Jesus did expect that he left the temple know it was suffering before glory.

And that's how we should relate to the cross and the it's something to be embraced, not just the vending machine to give us everything we want now and in the eight, and even Matthew five Jesus is better to enter heaven maimed speaking figuratively. Then with two hands and 2 feet to going to hell.

Joel is there a pattern we can find in Scripture of of God being involved in catastrophe storms, earthquakes, tsunamis, on the one hand, insurance policies call these acts of God, on the other hand, there Christians today who say no, God is not actively do those things are, it's Satan who tried to drown Jesus and the disciples and in Storment and you have a you have a chapter in the book. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm so do you have a theology about that. Can you go from that to look at events today and say God is doing this regard is not doing that or it is, is that the wrong application of Scripture it all be a review of the old preacher, one that you know God and the devil are after me and you know whenever the store the sorting it out. Good examples in the Bible or God sent an evil spirit in the length of the devil. Another parallel passage that the devil outspent a deceiving spirit in us, or think that you can photographically think I'll be honest with you in terms of the larger I difficult. The Arminian Calvinist debate my Stanford I don't dwell on things that are too great for me. If I'm to be honestly things are beyond me and so I'm open Arminian Anna Calvinist. I believe in the start of your God, believe in the in the free will and responsibility of man, but it also can we can argue we can debate we can you know theology guys about these things forever. But the point is we can look at examples.

You know, touched on storms, natural disasters thing. Another big thing that we get on in the book a lot because my co-author, by the way, Nathan great, a veteran missionary Ben, I noticed a stalwart Baptist missionary in Albania for 24 years. It was thrown in of the missionaries were baptized by fire right in the middle of the Bosnian war in 1990, ministering to people, Muslims who were dealing with questions that were slaughtering their villages. The other sort of thing you Plunged into that and then he was there almost bereft to correct with the refugees pouring through Eastern Europe to the Balkans up in Western Europe and for one of your silicate. All loss is very thin come back to finish the thought of you decided to break us is looking at the table of contents here.

Some pretty intense stuff you get into it become Baxter hit a new book, Joel Richardson, Nathan Graves, the mystery of catastrophe.

It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 86643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown today for selling look out the brand-new the mystery of catastrophe. Some of the chapter titles mystery of catastrophe present day examples the big picture of catastrophe in the second part of the book. What comes next, the world of catastrophe. The last right the spirit of antichrist. The Lord's purpose for the at the Lord's purpose for the answer. Christ our response. How then shall we respond to grand climax rising to the times a missionary for the time so as Joel said this is an eminently practical book so Joel you're talking about massive population movements and the suffering are cataclysmic results that brings them back to you. Okay so you know another great example in the New Testament is after the martyrdom of even you have the dispersion of the Jerusalem church now again at that moment you know if twitter existed back then.

I'm sure it will be complain and walk humbly authorities and protect us from persecution, and the other theology that Mr. thing, but rather than grumbling and complaining and just focusing on that, though think the Scripture say is that the believers boldly share the gospel everywhere they went everywhere that they were dispersed display of the early church with displaced people as result of that would decrease by the gospel read over the ancient world.

And so again you know there's a situation you at the time you don't think God is infinite, but God was in it he used it for the spread of the gospel and so you know perfect example. Today is the mouth look massive Muslim refugee crisis with gut. We had roughly a million Muslims poured through Turkey through Eastern Europe and so again, you know, the endless debate you know on the right on the last week for it. Are we against it. Be compassionate with the Christlike bank but I think those on the right and I'm very conservative and there to find large family against that this is an invasion either all men of military age, etc. unites the other video angry uncle Joe send emails out in other sort of thing and then those that are bit more mission focused, or sometimes little bit more politically elastic that what we need to be more action oriented Mr. and again I went out telling people you don't have to have an opinion.

What were saying is whether your 40 or against it is almost irrelevant regardless as to our political stand. We have an obligation and an opportunity to share the gospel and so there with Nathan a few years ago, when this whole thing was happening.

We I did a couple little programs on my little YouTube show we raised almost $100,000 and what we did is we got microSD card. We loaded them up with Bibles in multiple languages and they can organize a whole bunch of the churches throughout the Balkans that day they set up little cell phone charging station. So as the refugees were pouring through, they would stop and charge the phone and with that we've got these microSD card got the Bible in your language on it. Would you like us to put this into your phone. About 95% of these Muslims that yes absolutely. It also at the addresses of churches in Western Europe that had spread like one that you you get here.

We want to minister to you and as a result of that, you know, again with your order against it. The government going to do it. They're going to do, but as result of that, Nathan. Just got back from a visit to a church with her was about 24 new believers, all former Muslims from Elon Curtis Dan and Syria and that was as a direct result of that initiative and noticed good things that are coming out of the refugee crisis God is using it. But if we just focus on the political side of things were going to miss gospel opportunities so you know these tragedies are real but there are also opportunities we have growing team in Kurdistan and I think there's some of the folks that are involved there and they they phone call their suits in northern Iraq and not long after they got there to serve the people and preach the gospel of the refugee crisis broke from Syria and before they knew it literally in the backyard, not that literally. But right right with her living close to the backyard doing hundreds of thousands of refugees both true Christian nominal Christian and Muslim. And they've had an incredible opportunity to share with these needy people and yet it's a terrible thing this great tragedy and it put in all of it, there's the opportunity for redemption.

Having said that though.

Let me challenge you play devils advocate here, aren't you going a little too forward to talk about the Lord's purpose for the for the antichrist to me what what in the world could be redemptive about an antichrist and tribulation in these kinds of things and yet that's the.

The ultimate catastrophe you could say so, what's the redemptive side to that Joel, you know the story. Years ago I heard one of the little calendar of a Bible verse each day and that one of the days I ripped open the page in it that it fits you will prosper in all Daniel eight and I looked at that it was supposed to be an inspirational Bible verse for the day. But wait a minute talk about the antichrist that that first talk about the antichrist eventually got verses in Daniel eight and Daniel 11 were actually fair that the antichrist will prosper in all he does in waging war against God's holy people, and so I know it sounds difficult to say God's purpose or the antichrist but in the sovereignty of God. You know the Lord has actually chosen to allow this Allstate lot of chastisement to be used against his people Israel to be used against the unbelievers of the earth, and in a lot of ways you can purify his church, and it actually spelled, but you will prosper. Sometimes I joking I say Joel that you believe in the prosperity gospel like there will Bible clearly says that the antichrist is going to prosper and so you know, I know the kind of silly, but the point is that you even antichrist. The Lord has focused from before trying to use to purify and refine his church answer chastises people Israel, because in the end, and Moses himself talked about that you know in the end, and in the last days of orders can allow Israel to come to the use of the end of her strength and he interjects anything.

So where are your fault God in our idol now behold you know what I'm revealing myself I'm the one that brings life. I'm the one that bring that number-one steel and so you know I'm the only one that can bring life and so this is the suspend news is where you throw redemptive history and really what I hear you saying is it's the same with the micro and the macro that in each of our own personal lives. There were things that appear to be stumbling blocks, but they can become steppingstones.

There are things that are the worst things that ever happened to us, and they become the best things that ever happened to us. There were things that in and of themselves are evil and wrong and bad, and sometimes the results of our own mistake or error.

And yet without those things we wouldn't learn more about the Lord. We wouldn't overcome certain stakes or even end up in certain places able to minister to certain people so we've got a look at everything through the eyes of God being a Redeemer. I think if that's our default value. Joel, if we start there that God is a Redeemer regardless of why the thing happen who brought it about that that there is a redemptive answer to it that the same weight as our personalized it's gonna be, no matter how big the calamity, the tragedy helping the loss of life how demonic the power. So what you're seeking to do now believing that the days ahead. Whether it's five years or 50 years or hundred years that the days ahead will be fraught with upheaval and calamity. Let's have that same redemptive outlook on all of life, including massive tragedy and calamity exactly I mean this is great throughout the New Testament passages brother and sisters.

Don't be surprised when all these trials and tribulations In your life because your get your best. That's not happening in God's not even treating you like children and all because every loving father chastises children spoke on the personal level with we do it with our children because we desire for them to grow up in maturity and wisdom of the Lord, does it in our lives as well.

Real instant know at that moment of difficulty they will.then the that's not the point here, but the again the pointers to to practice asking different questions that in the midst of it right what redemptive purposes might God be providing in this moment, you know, how can I use this as an opportunity for growth. How can I use this as an opportunity to see the gospel spread it all again the caravan coming up the southern border state what here's another good question what ministries might I be you know aware of what I need to find out about that are down there in central America that are ministering that I can partner with and what that might be actual and I'll be ministering into the situation that sort of thing on you know and and and so even back here in the United States were not missionaries or the letter that have to do with me will we can find out what ministries there are some big global crisis that's unfolding in faith. How can we partner with them. How can we pray for them out and we support them just having a much more gospel centered attitude. Yet, it really is boils down to that in July was I was talking to Walter Haydn, writes one of the most respected Christian leaders. I know in Germany and a man is really lived out his faith in very real ways for decades, and we were in Korea ministering together youth conference and I asked him with a heavy heart, brother, what about the problems in Germany and and and you know that the large number of Muslims in the country. Just reading about the upheaval in any victim's brother. What great opportunities if we can't get into Syria another in our country we can reach them that I don't, I will say that solves all the political problems or issues but his mentality was here people in the that have been brought towards doorstep friends. The new book Joel Richardson and Nathan Graves. The mystery of catastrophe makes very relevant reading in the world in which we live and probably be more relevant each year ahead. Joel, thanks for doing the hard work with your co-author may the Lord use this to speak to many administrative men hi friends join us tomorrow right here a lot of fire until then go around the Lord, come on. Visit us. There is been a few hours together on our website?

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