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December 13, 2018 4:30 pm
This amazing new translation process on the book of Isaiah will talk to the translator will talk about Bible translation today on the Rogers there is the stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH your again is Dr. Michael Brown.
It was just a few months back I was online on Twitter and someone referred me to a new translation of the book of Isaiah. I immediately went to the page began to look and thought that this is beautiful. This is Mike that this is a this is.
This expresses things it in the poetry empowered by Seth is amazing and begin to read about the translator Mr. Clayton Rose will wait a second, his dad on the air couple years back. His dad was a famous novelist now famous conservative voice any known Jewish believer in Jesus of the data entry claim in the sun. Spencer, claimant is a lecturer, scholar, lecture of ancient Greek language and literature at the University of Oxford. Also, a specialist in ancient music. So we connect estimate what we've got to get you on the air. So this is the first time that will be communicating voice to voice as opposed to email to email but phone lines are open 86634 866-34-TRUTH 784.
Specifically, if you have a question about Bible translation or theories of Bible translation or why one translation is preferred over another or how to translate a particular passage or or debate an issue about that, by all means give us a call 866-34-TRUTH, but without any further ado, Spencer. Welcome to the line of fire. Thanks much for joining us forever. Now that you've got a fasting background scholar in ancient Greek but also scholar in ancient music within also able to translate Hebrew Bible and illiterate way that how did have these things come together in your life.but is a great totally correct and entered in any other way to the prompting of the Holy Spirit are you doing in my academic career in Oxford studying ancient Greek civilian integrate music and I studied classics, which is really Aspen. The non-Judeo-Christian Greek texts, but of course being a believing Christian myself becoming proficient in ancient Greek. It was natural start to look at the end and it original Greek and conveyor. I was so excited by what happened when I looked at you text book that I've known for years and it was like the first I do. While I couldn't stop there. So I got excited about learning biblical Hebrew to read that the Old Testament Hebrew Bible and that began with a bit of a devotional project but it become more and more of a scholarly endeavor in one of the great joys of that unit. My scholarship in my face and my reading your Bible, after converged together in this project that are now doing on the book of Isaiah.
So how is working on the project. Well, you know, the whole thing really began back around this time last year I was there with the advent of that is now misleading when many Christian churches celebrate and commemorate the moment of waiting for Christ's arrival into the world and Isaiah is the book of the Bible to get that a lot during that time because of course Christ associates himself with the Messiah was prophesied by Isaiah Christian believes that Isaiah believed that Isaiah prophesied the coming of Christ. We often read this book and the various prophecies that refer to Jesus in an and I was sitting in church and listening and there are so many just the misdemeanor world-famous passages, mighty God, everlasting father, wonderful accounts with beautiful lines often get red or strong, especially in the King James which is the entry English translation. I was thinking of the words are of course gorgeous. Of course they have this deep residence for me. Having heard them year after year, but in another sense, because I've heard them year after year end because language moves on in English develops and evolves. I'm not actually sure that I'm listening to this anymore and and I started to get curious about people having learned over the years prior and so I started to begin to be gibbering to see what they are and again it was like setting the world on fire. You know the type Isaiah is not just what a great profits of Israel is also a master literary style and the language that he uses to describe the devastation of sin and the joy of salvation in the coming of the Messiah, so powerful and shocking and gritty that I really thought would be exciting.
Data new fresh English relation impurities worked again. Million questions get treated in my mind is because of my own background and study but and sociable will give that the website we can read this for yourself and there is this background commentary and further information. But this was what really captured my attention Spencer when when I started learning he was serious that I learned a little house permits for 13, but it was at was an anomaly Jewish home so is very little and I started college and the only Hebrew classes were modern Hebrew. So I got a biblical Hebrew grammar that a rabbi recommended and started to teach myself biblical Hebrew. And then when I first started reading Hebrew Bible to really try to grasp and learn series that started in Isaiah's always reading so slowly, memorize that the text below, but more recently for a Job commentary that that I was working on a chat with the publisher and said you think I should do my own translation I recommended sodium Job is the most difficult to translate. I was the a lot of philosophical challenges.
The author challenges but it's it's really difficult to translate and I wanted to convey a certain power and force of of the poetry and the words but maybe because of the commentary I'd I just wanted to really stick very closely to the text did not make it too poetic when I get your Isaiah translation. I thought that's that that's the verve that's the feel that I like. So how how is it that you have balanced being faithful to the text that you don't want to change all the words and and you be so poetic that that it divorces it from there. And yet convey the dynamic power of the Hebrew and English. How if you work that out. Well, it could question it sounds like we struggled with a lot of the same issues, you're much further along that process than I am. But I one of the thing that really strikes me about Hebrew that is quite quite different from English is that there are many fewer words vocabulary words that are usually used in inviting improvement that's more true for some of the historical narratives, but even in copywritten get poetic. There's a lot of wordplay with a few different root kind of debt changed so it gets very easy. First of all the buildup meaning of the word like Dunbar leading the word of the proclamation of God get used in so many different ways in context has a slightly different nuance and then in English, you might have prerecorded work but you need to use for that and so you have that concern going on.
You have the issue of the kind of poetic or the literary quality of the text which you have to really resurrect from premodern years. Not everything sounds the same to us as it to keep her sneakers and in the eighth century defeated course and so you gotta think about how to re-create some of the alliteration that Isaiah. That Isaiah uses the same letter, the same words change around a couple times and then course you most of all, and in first and foremost want to make sure you're not getting in the way of the meeting and, in fact, that was one of my primary concern was the fact that Isaiah Isaiah's full of rich description and references to historical events and places and times that we can begin to lose sight of what the heck it is that you actually think, and so I think might my primary goal here was clarity. I wanted people to read this and understand what's being said because the message is so urgent. What what Isaiah but I'll try to get across that that really my first concern and I I try to stick as close as possible to the meaning of the of the language. Now sometimes you have to do that on sentence level rather than a word level.
So if you change around a couple words in order to get the meaning the whole sentence and sometimes that gives you little bit of freedom also took to do some work planted re-create from the sound effects and poetic tropes that Isaiah that I lied using yes also friends go to rejoice – evermore.com is the website with other material from spencers will rejoice.evermore.com and click on the Isaiah project so I'd I just want to read some from chapter 1, the vision of Isaiah. Some of the most witchy song about Judah and Jerusalem in the days when you sides with them. Ahaz and Hezekiah were kings of Judah here, heavens, earth, when your ears God makes his proclamation made by sons grow, raise them up.
They revolted against me and ox knows his herdsman, a donkey knows his master's paddock Israel doesn't know my people that understand old doom's information population heavy with corruption, offspring of the evil ones destroyer sons to abandon God they disdained Israel sacred one. Their backs were turned so you can get that the feel of of the power that in that that again. It really has the vibrancy of the Hebrew III know Spencer with my commentary work and things like that. I I tried to be extremely consistent if a particular word was used in a particular context with a particular meaning to always try to render it the same way so that that pulls back a little on the flexibility you know someone has to decide with they do they are but reading Greek literature then reading Hebrew literature it in terms of the, the feel of it. The dynamic of it. How how would you describe his government like a minute before they will pick this up with the difference between reading ancient Greek poetry and Hebrew poetry because it feel different. Well that feature that I mentioned earlier that you really sinfully keyword pickup a lot of meaning that first of all a reason why it is helpful important to nail down a few of the most crucial want the heavens and earth present on that earth like you have an earth lender, ears from my favorite that two words are so important. You want make sure that the same each time. In any sort dance around and play with the words on on either side of them, but in Greek. The structure is quite the closer I say English and you have a lot of different words are different registers and in some ways it easier to nail down philosophical ideas in Greek.
Where is it easier to play with Ms. mystical concepts in poetry and Hebron interaction between the two of them in the Bible is is really exciting and that way to yet.
It's also part of the wisdom of God to reveal the Scriptures to us in Hebrew and Greek is very different languages in which different things can be more clearly convey the right friends go to rejoice – evermore.com if you have a question Bible translation question: 08664 truth my guest Spencer Craven will be right back. I will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends.
It is thoroughly Jewish Thursday modifier. Thanks much for being part of the broadcast. I'm speaking with my guest lecturer professor at Oxford University Spencer Craven and I really encourage you to check out his ongoing translation of the book of Isaiah is Isaiah project at rejoice – evermore.com check out the other material.
There as well. If you have a question for me Bible translation question for me or for my guest.
Truth is the number to call.
Hey Spencer, I will take a call from a Rabbi and that will both be able to interact with him on his question. Sound good, great, all right, but we go to the phones.
A gentleman that I just know from Twitter is the college Rabbi out welcome Sir to the line of fire. I Brown thank you for taking me know that my conversation on Twitter and that the court, the all like to continue what we were discussing on the aria art riot 12. Sure, please do so. So, R.
Listeners know what your issue is and then will take a look at the Hebrew text together so as we know grammatical rule, as we know them now only that up during the Middle Ages that even the valves which we take for granted. Of course, were developed by the downing the rabbis in Babylonia 79th century and we were having a discussion couple them and I can never find it and make the three grammatical rules that would document appurtenant here are the first one is at the word, which is when I was a directional object that one of you for the word at what followed after it in the verb is going to be the object of the second one that we came up with his subject for verb agreement we were discussing that the third which is safety is probably not as important.
Perhaps we were discussing a before is active, passive, as a relates to the word of the cargo soon so others, what we are looking specifically at Zechariah 1210, which is in Christian translation is, they will look to me whom they have pierced, so the phrase in Hebrew at a share taken to mean a whom the one whom then that's that's the crux of the discussion here, yet something I had asked you I was wondering with the rule share came up because I'm not familiar with equal share. But the rule at is very fun. In fact, if you take the New York State Regent high school regions in Hebrew Yep ns share. I'm not familiar with any such will, but the leave the anybody that I've ever went to Mrs. Sheila. Public-school Grove public-school University level is the way that you would read it. According to the grandmother you learn in school would be at and then I shared the new would be the in this case the subject of the word. He beat you translate that translate it differently than the Talmud understood it differently than the Septuagint understood. In other words, not at all because I'm reading straight tech.
I understand that when his highest court of the Talmud. It's coded it's coded as if at a share is is the phrase it's coded in the Septuagint, it's Mrs. where exactly in the Talmud is a quoted share was the way that were reading it that they are looking to one they pierced with the one that was understanding I have I have almost no know where I am. I can pull out the Talmud and take a look exactly yeah so I go there in the second and let's I thought you might have in your head that that's fine so I have it if I'm rinsing out Spencer and freight in Hebrew perspective is wealth.
What I would say is you want to look at. Does the phrase at a share occur a certain way, do you have reason Michael Matt, I have to look at the whole verse so if you look if you just researching the in the Tanakh. In the Hebrew Bible for at a share when they occur together it was site you'll see about 130 times they occur together, and I understand it hurt right in the way only way to read according to the inner grammatical rule by everybody, is that you would read it at and in a share in whatever follows would be together. It will be a directional object, it would turn whatever freight at into itself subject and when out even though one were looking at it we will that's that's as saying that if you examine the hundred 30 times that I share follows and you'll see that it goes together.
That's the point that I that I have 130 references and Hebron front of me and if you go through them you should really just an easy search on that that you'll see that the phrase is that it occurs as a phrase together that you're isolating the bidding actually Chris together and I'm not isolating them at all what I am doing is not isolating them, but I am bringing whatever comes after share and telling you that the rule is and I'm more than happy if you can find you sort that brings a Written rule for S share. Rather, the ice eyesight I size the grammar is eyeglass. 30 yes I eyesight the grammar I give other examples from the Hebrew Bible and eyesight grammar from the standard Hebrew grammars that are recognized and in use by all eyesight that in a footnote to Zechariah 1210, inviting three events Ranger's objections to Jesus. So we that's recovered, we really gave that information. I also find that those the clients lexicon is a dictionary of classical Hebrew which is a standard eight volume set and I give his treatment of of at followed by a share of governmental grammatical rules of the rule cited for your all cited for there is already there and I can't get into it like and include pages on the radio here, but the role that I were going to calm to an if any of you looking for an example would go to any Hebrew speaker yellow Hebrew is now in modern spoken language and they would ask you how you going to tell you that anything after at the affair it goes together. But it goes together in the bank that is in counseling at a share and if the girl I said that the room is going to Ed is going to turn into a directional okay right right okay I understand and some just just right is fairness to those that are trying to listen in fairness to my guests as well. What I'm saying is you are ignoring 130 examples of at followed by a share in the Hebrew Bible you are ignoring the grammatical rules that I cited. I'm in my body at are so than what's wrong with the grammatical rules I cited in the citations given for the clients lexicon and the other examples again from the Hebrew Bible. What's wrong though those because nothing wrong with them because although will follow the school as well and you'll see what they're welcome to look anywhere you'd be the word that you're going to have the reading when you don't have to change the rule. When the word affair comes after that. There is no change in the rule it's going object, and I share is whom they they will look to the one whom this is no change the look to the one whom I share the look to the one thing your day.
Work there is a shared word whom you share whom so Ed is the direct object ignites incidents tentative particulates I listen, I would love to discuss this further.
But your refusing the grammar your ears simply as salicylate when we have a private conversation on the phone with David because it's not fair listeners to its gonna make no sense suspense when you're looking at an end. This sticker on the second Spencer when you're want to bring you an earlier but the controversy over Zechariah 1210 messianic prophecy and houses understood in traditional Jewish translations when when you see at followed by a share or Zechariah 1210, which I assume you're familiar with how would you prorate the text.I'm looking at it now and nodded I've ever translated or really studied in a scholarly way myself. But I have just pulled up Septuagint and also anyone. The reason why important issue is that it comes up in John chapter 19 verse 37 and there you both of the text or are Ingrid and so one of the interesting thing there that when you're dealing with the question of of active versus passive go to middle as well which kind and something can leave the question ambiguous that what John right up some typeface on exit and peace, which is absolutely unambiguously they will look upon the one they have pierced and I suppose that my approach if I were to look at this text and that Hebrew would be to attempt first of all, the look at your list of parallels which I don't have in front of me, myself, but I take it on faith. And then I would I would move on.
I get into the Greek, which doesn't to confirm that an active sense that they have pierced.
They will look upon the one who may have met is the most natural not being training from likely blood that is most natural reading aping direct object marker and I share being the relative pronoun but again it is not something that I have looked into in-depth myself.I suggest to some this college I was a friend and I'm happy to have a private conversation with you how to do that as direct object marker followed by the front and a share. So the one whom they pierced. Just as we translated it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks friends for joining us on this.
Their leaders Thursday broadcast on the line of fire. This is Michael Brown drawing but my special guest Spencer Craven who is a scholarly lecturer of ancient Greek and ancient music and Oxford University and is producing a beautiful translation of the book of Isaiah go to rejoice – evermore.com to find out about the Isaiah project and will will talk more about that. Look at some examples from the project there and them will post links to it on social media. If you have a translation related question, give us a call 866342 Spencer at one question that I was asked to ask you on on Twitter was in terms of a favorite Bible translation and obviously the people say what's the most accurate. What's the most of the closest for the best. Obviously that's a very subjective question but do you as someone fluent in ancient Greek and and strong in ancient Hebrew. Do you have a favorite English translation no. 20.
My answer might be depriving and that I just started doing that I was satisfied with version over and over again. This old tried-and-true 70 century English version of the Bible, but in fact I'm one of the sort of most passionate devotees of the King James Mitchell ever meet. I think first of all, in and of itself as a work of English composition one of the foundational texts of English writing up there with. I was a complete works of Shakespeare is an English piece that has basically said to all of what was subsequently written but on top of that, the more I learned about the biblical languages and the closer I examine the original text more I find moments in the King James where what seems like a sort of Fox TV old-fashioned way of writing something is actually a careful attempt to preserve an ambiguity or a double meaning that exist already in the in the Greek or the English until I I love that you of the King James, I read when I my worship. Usually the English like your read aloud the NIV. The new international version. And that's Eric year and in direct tonight. I do enjoy it but I think one of the things I'm trying to do with this product is the sort of unite the clarity of that modern English with some of the transcendent beauty of exchanging them in the Isaiah alone in making changes is a work of art you how art thou fallen from heaven to Lucifer's son of the morning. The glorious way of expressing that moment in Isaiah 14, but I think it is a little bit of updating for modern years worked on price. Is it just preserve a certain majesty and power.
Obviously other languages changed over the centuries and then we keep learning more about ancient Hebrew and Greek and more manuscript evidence and things like that that there is a beauty and power that is wonderful.
So what when you we were talking about earlier. The difference between Hebrew poetry and Greek poetry. What about that the radical difference in verbal expressions. Now I'm I'm I'm 10 times better hundred times better in Hebrew that I am in Greek but no in the and and it's it's coin a that I really learned for more than than classical, but the precision of the Greek verbal system compared to the fluidity of the human verbal system. How how is that for you. Having learned Greek first and the precision in and you can nail things you know this is past but stops at a certain pointer this past and ongoing versus the he brake is is so fluid hat. How did you go from one world to the other. Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned time when when you read that central joy of moving from Greek greeted even more than English Greek uses its orbs to really nail down not only the moment when something happens, but how long something is happening or whether it happened in the past, ongoing affect future with her over things like that in Hebrew.
One of the shocking things for an English speaker or somebody who studied Greek verbs don't necessarily get rooted in time in quite the same way you have a sense of birds that are progressive and ongoing that it is quite accurate still continuing then you have Bertha describe complete action that complete action could be happening in the future sometime but to describe something that you know it's been prophesied is going to happen in the future. But because God is staying it so certain that if it's already happened in a classic example of this is Isaiah chapter 9 the people that walk in… Have you a great light and there were were being given at definite thing that that will happen in the future but is sort of expecting to lift it were happening now and this is I think you spoke earlier about the wisdom of God in conveying to us in the language of in this is one of the central ways in which that's true, that he booted fascinating and excellent language for talking about infinity and eternity in the timeline because God of course entered into history and back in history where things happen before and after and now and then but he also exists outside of time and all of his actions whether they happen after this moment, that were an hour before our eternal and in his own site. The whole plan of salvation is in some sense already accomplished and able to get both of those realities that kind of time that your Christian college already. Not yet. The way in which things both have happened because God is decided on, but also work still in progress in working out from our perspective in time is really exciting and difficult to capture in English. Yeah, it was was called calmly the prophetic perfect so it's spoken of in the past tense. But it's a future event. You have it right in the tower you have in the numbers. The 24th chapter of a scepter you will look at all Ewing's translations.
The receptor will rise as the recession has risen in the rabbinic commentaries that they address that is all Rossi others address that as well so that the prophet sees it as if it's really happened and and then describes it after it happened before it happened. So what is it, it is wondrous, but then you have these places where you can't tell in the Hebrew is is the writer referring to his present suffering a Job saying whatever I fear happens to me is he talking about the things I feared in the past of the come on me because of the, the fluidity of the Hebrew verb system so it's it is. It is fascinating to look at it when you came to pass, is like Isaiah 714, which many English translations will say version and then of course the debate about the exact meaning of parsing us when it is there in the Septuagint and then Jewish translations will say maiden or young woman.
So I was curious to see how you rendered that so what you come up with that Isaiah 714 Chi thought was very fair. Actually okay sure this is a really interesting question to a larger question of whether we as Christians who believe in Christ. In this text on every page of it you will be insert him back into our translation opt or choices which make it more clear or even assert that that the virgin birth is being prophesied here and Parthenon in Greek just like the Hebrew word have a kind of ambiguity. It could described as the young unmarried woman could also describe it will specify a version and so I've written on on 714 look you maiden girl conceiving and so that that word made in English. Kind of get a sense of authentic refers to somebody who is a virgin but it could also just be a young maiden girl, get that tenderness in there as well and I think that the really needed the philosophy behind that is in the Hebrew text, there exists an ambiguity and God is put that ambiguity there to invite us to make our own interpretive choices and decisions want sort of like when when Jesus says to Peter you good people say that I am an Peter Leslie document images of the youth and ended rather than think I am the Messiah, Jesus opened up a space heater to make that confession and invites him anything demand that you walk into that space, which enables Peter's choice to be a part of that crucial moment in church history and really kind way. That's kind of what's going on here with with translation. I'd I don't really believe in inserting that answer or the reader the readers invited and challenged by the text to investigate and feet. Do I believe it is referring to Jesus of Nazareth and not wanting to try to keep alive with my God is excellent and I again made me realize I thought was very good because it gets your attention is not just young woman is not version and in even if you sit between law there, which is used for virgin and legal context but to lie in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean version and there is no for example, the textiles will call that the young man and the young women to mourn and it uses between law that context, assessing the young men and women more and then David is described as an element is that a virginal man it's just it's just a young man in the root has got you more with youthfulness in the but then there's a commentary that Rossi has on it saying that maybe the sign was that she was just Amman. It wasn't suitable it wasn't expected for her to give birth in the other question is does it have an application that Isaiah's day of some birth of great significance in the Davidic line but it's just a foretaste of what's to come. Many what you mention Parthenon's most just assume oh this is part of us. In Greek the Septuagint that was virgin but it doesn't have. It doesn't always have to be version of the New Testament like that probably 10 virgins of the 10 virgins are 10 maidens.
Even I can be debated or or or would you differ with that last point know you I think that is exactly right. And especially I agree with thinking have historical significance and referred to actual event I might I bear is a person who is speaking to a particular store context around 740 BC in Jerusalem and dealing with the coming of of steering Preston and the Babylonian conquest, but she's also as a prophet of God uttering words which have infinite beyond his human contact with Zywicki absolutely indicate that in history, God leads us through. Which foreshadow what is eventually the ultimate meaning of of this text, the word biggest using in the Greek New Testament is his claim Ro system that gets translated as fulfillment. A lot of the time filling our upbringing to completion of what something was always meant to be and so I don't think it a problem at all for the stated at the time it had a particular meaning but that meaning also pointed forward to what was was ultimately to come in Christ and one of the things which linger talking about the differences between tentative Hebrew intensity in Greek. One of the most magnificent features of of greeting I waxed poetic about how exciting it is not locked down in time and can speak about the eternal realities of God little bit more fluidly family friendly time almost as if that became flesh yeah I be right. This is wonderful stuff will be right back to Spencer claims there is it's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 6643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown walking back to the thoroughly Jewish Thursday. Boy I wish I had hours to talk with my new friend Spencer Craven know when I saw that he was a scholar and ancient music. I said hey I've got a book coming out on the power of music God's call to change the world one song at a time and and I've got some great blurbs from different worship leaders and songwriters. The book is due on January 8 and will begin a whole week focusing on music the power music and II Spencer assume the super busy as scholars and academics would be if you might take a look at it so so we have added Ian along with the worship leaders and songwriters. A great blurb much appreciated from Spencer Craven. Also, Spencer. Let's set let's take a call about the book of Isaiah and I will go to Jay in Idaho you can question Isaiah 960 go forward.
Please call our ground like good quickly breakfast my comment by saying I'm not a Hebrew expert.
I'm even learners.
So very possible to have a Mr. patient here, but we got an argument with an apologist on line about Isaiah 96 right everlasting father all the odd themes to meet you constantly referred to internal or everlasting father in. I mean, there's almost 150 some odd translations. I read 65 of them in English language on an all everlasting father, with the exception of two Youngs Derby are Young's literal and Derby, and yet a big argument made by lot of people that this actually means father of eternity, which really means father of eternal life.
So I had two questions on that. My first question was why do both English and French, English and Jewish translators overwhelmingly translate this as eternal father rather than father of eternity and number two is the word odd ever used to describe everlasting life seems to me that the word along is always used to describe everlasting life, and that evening, for example, Isaiah 4517.
When you see the word odd audit is actually describing the alarm rather than life. So what would be your answer that. Yes I want to go to Spencer's translation, in a moment in Hebrews 1 verse difference.
Isaiah 95 so I'll let him explain his translation in the way and afterwards but just insured all by itself. Off the top of my head just run his references in my mind, not II would not think of that in itself describe eternal life present.
Isaiah 5715 God is sugarcane on inhabiting eternity so it would only be here forever and ever.
That kind of concept but not specifically about life with Spencer want to explain your translation of those words will be all read your translation first because a baby is delivered to us a son given the rule of law is on the shoulder. He is called by the name miracle mentor hero God father forever, sovereign of peace.
So how did you come up with father forever sure so that the only question it is I'm looking now identical lexicon entry and it is an abstract noun referring to perpetuity or even the final terminus and when you have that construct with the two nouns are linked together one after the other sort of think of it I think of it as a genitive that is the possessive, so father of eternity. It is certainly not an impossible translation, but it's also the case that genitive case can link to words in a lot of different way to be the father who exists forever. The father who inhabits forever the other bedecked paternity or or get birth to forever and so I was looking for to thinking course. One of the most famous lines in Isaiah, maybe the most famous line of wonderful God, mighty counselor, wonderful Counselor, mighty God, Prince of peace, everlasting father, and something I think it that get missed every now and then is that I I is one of the moments in which Isaiah is really doing a lot with the sound of the Hebrew language. Hello, you're eligible for a hobby. Odd Barcelona alliteration their rhythm. There don't want to capture that and I was looking also for something that would be a intimacy of of of my father. This all and Majesty of of the perpetuity and eternity odd and portly.
I don't get really resolved or you question raised about the relational ambiguity in, and I'm not sure that I can. I think that that's what another one of those questions that might be exciting to leave open" may be true of God but yet miracle mentor hero God father forever sovereign pieces end up with sure LOL you board hero God is supposed to mighty God of seen seen that miracle mentor that was it that was brand-new and I thought what that that has some thought behind it, but Jay just to finish off briefly because of yard could mean father of eternity. It was as as Spencer just explained. So what would that mean it could mean the possessor of eternity, or could mean father forever.
And since it's a prophecy of the king. Obviously, the messianic King and he has this this super human or supernatural status is. He equated with being the heavenly father will know but as as the leader of Israel is the anointed leader of Israel is he the father of the nation. Remember that God said to Joseph, I've I've made you a father to Faro you so so raising him up in that way.
So I I agree with Spencer's translation father forever so as the king of Israel is the Messiah. He is the father of the nation forever, but is not the heavenly father.
Hence, everlasting father, so I don't believe it means father of eternal life.
I mean, but believe it means father forever as the one who will who will lead the nation as the anointed leader as the divine king and why others don't translate that way as much. Sometimes you just get used to a certain thing. It's become so famous so well-known that it's difficult to get away from it. All right I will be okay if I adapted very brief of all you have sure causes brief sure thing Hebrew follow the same rule as Spanish where the additive follows the noun or example would be the milk white rather than the white milk electro pubertal is very much requirement. You're very welcome J thank you for the question to a week. We had time for one more question Spencer every Denise in Richmond. We got a dive right into your question, so please go for yes hi. I'm typically quick and I can talk in our article class wondering about Mary not a direct language translation typically but wondering about Mary's knowledge of Scripture that wanting it, Magnificat does indeed he got her having knowledge of packages like those in Isaiah, wishing he had some inclination that she was finally bobbing for sure wondering the person who acquired the property up for the quite at that oral tradition at him is not about anxiety but but speaking out, Elizabeth. I'm wondering those who have captured her words in writing for Karen on that.
Yes, a very heartening red educate so so 33 options will get Spencer's take on this one option. Mary Mary is she she knows the Scriptures well and she's actually quoting from paraphrasing specially for Samuel to in Luke 11 option. Second option is she dispelled by supernatural inspiration of the spirit, of course, is a Jewish woman that she wouldn't have that much knowledge of Scripture or third option as she spoke out words of praise, which then Luke embellishes with words of Scripture so expensive what's what's your take on that one yet. Great question and one thing though.
We know Jesus. I will back a great quote yesterday read it out loud in the garden and so on. Possible that there's a quotation going on there.
This is a very kind of squishy to skew the character Mary died that that reads to me like a moment of inspiration by the Holy Spirit is your option to but it certainly all three of those options are possible. Got it all right so these good way to look at it is the Holy Spirit inspired her to speak.
You couldn't assume it was a godly young woman that she would have had that massage Scripture she may have, of course, but literacy was that is high in the general population and then be even worse among women, but maybe that's why she especially chosen. She love the Lord so much you memorize Scripture as a girl, but certainly the Holy Spirit could speak it and would speak it in harmony with previous revelation. So, great, great question Denise. Thanks so much.
He Spencer really quickly when folks go to rejoice – evermore.com. What else will they find there, and what is the date that you want to give to God's people these days all agree?
I am delighted mentor so always be the Isaiah project.
Do the central thing going on right now it rejoice – evermore.com and you can find that right.
But I I also kind of writing about the more secular venues and articles about faith and culture their sermon, but I given in Oxford one at various chapels around around the University and those are on different subjects that you can click on the tab and I also occasionally my devotional poems which people have found helpful.
One of the sermon. People tend to respond to most is Michael mean your demon first one up there and upon the temptation of Christ in the wilderness, but I just wants to get a product of 14 chapters up and I release a new one every week. You can sign up on the website to get email updates as well. Doing every week that's that's impressive. That's the stuff the grace to get that done and 30 seconds. The atmosphere Oxford is their openness to to the gospel is very hostile. You know, I've been really blessed and lucky a place where there is a long long Church of England tradition court each almost every college within Oxford has its own capital and and chaplain of course academia is a place where easier than most other players to be sort of dismissive of faith and religion but at least I've I've received really open-minded other than some troubling American yeah well that's that's good to hear will bring something to Oxford as well man. I really appreciate the cell. It's been wonderful. Thanks and let's keep up the great work doing mutual likewise thanks very much. I will bless