Should Pro-Life Christians Support Abortion Laws with Exceptions for Rape and Incest?

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So should pro-life Christians support legislation that allows for abortion in the case of rape and fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, we are going to have a really interesting, enlightening, eye-opening discussion today. You get to participate. I hope we can sharpen one another, learn from one another, challenge one another in a good way.

866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. You get to weigh in. You get to make your case. As we talk about pro-life legislation, friends, this is not an abstract discussion.

This is something that is taking place on a regular basis. This discussion just took place in the state of Indiana. So we'll talk about that in a moment. We'll talk about what happened in Kansas with very different results than Indiana and also going another direction in terms of how things went about in Indiana versus Kansas in pro-life legislation.

We'll talk about that. There's a massive bill that has been pushed forward by the Democrats, a bill having to do with inflation, a bill having to do with global warming, climate change, a bill having to do with health care. It is a massive bill.

It is a bill of great consequence. But it is a bill that focuses on areas that are outside of my focus, outside of my areas of expertise. In other words, these are not things that I've given myself to over the years or been called by God to give myself to over the years. So to have a discussion about something that I'm not focused on, to have a discussion about something that God has not called me to give attention to, however important it might be, that won't really help you. I'm not going to offer you something that is really worth your time as a listener.

There are so many other radio stations you could be listening to right now, so many other podcasts you could be listening to, some of the other streams on Facebook and YouTube you could be watching. So I want to give you the best quality I can. I want to be genuinely your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity, genuinely infusing you with faith and truth and courage, genuinely helping you stand strong in the Lord. So the areas that I'm focused on, called to, interested in, those are the things we can best talk about.

That's where I can give my best contribution and that's where we can have the best interaction. I'm sure there are plenty of others that will be covering this bill and you can learn from them what you need to. Okay, let me give you the phone number once again and then let me lay out the issues and the arguments.

866-34-TRUTH. The state of Indiana just passed legislation. This is now post Roe v. Wade, passed legislation that was signed into law Friday night by the governor. So you have two chambers within each state, just like you have nationally, you have the Senate and the House of Representatives that makes up Congress.

So you have the same setup in each state. You have the House and the Senate. One of my colleagues is in the House there.

He called me Friday with an update on what was going on. It had just been passed by the House, this pro-life legislation. Then it went from there to the Senate.

Then it went from there to the governor. So this is now the law in the state of Indiana. All abortions are forbidden in the state of Indiana except for abortions for the reason of rape, incest, or to save the life or health of the mother. Now, in order to qualify for the rape and incest clause, still the abortion has to be performed within 10 weeks and then it can only be performed in a hospital by a doctor. So that effectively shuts down all the abortion clinics in the state as well.

And with abortion, less of an easy thing in that sense, just go to the Planned Parenthood clinic or the other abortion clinic, now going into a hospital, everything having to go through a doctor, et cetera, hopefully even more abortions will be eliminated. So the question was, was that a right bill for a Christian to sign on to? Now my colleague argued against the exception clauses for rape and incest. Unless those clauses were in there, the bill would not have gone through.

They would not have sufficient votes to push it through. So he had to make the choice as an unashamed Jesus follower who loves the word of God, loves life, has made the case against an exception clause for rape or incest saying, hey, it's still a baby. You don't punish the baby for the sins of the father. Yes, understand in a certain sense the mother's punished, but then he's interviewed many women as well that were the victims of rape that decided to have their child and said it's the best thing they did.

And through that child, now they've had grandchildren, grandchildren, et cetera. Others have said that having the abortion didn't help heal the rape at all and they regretted it. But even so, without allowing for rape and incest, the bill would not have passed. So now that his changes and the changes of other pro-life Christians were denied, so you have a choice. Do I vote for the bill as it stands and thereby eliminate 98 percent of the abortions in the state and the clinics close down and leave and now we can always work towards the others and seek to remove the rape and incest clause over time? Or do you say principle is principle? You compromise here.

You compromise everywhere. You you side with taking the life of an innocent baby again. We're not talking about to save the life or health of the mother. We're not talking about that. So we're we're not talking about, say, an ectopic pregnancy, something like that, that that's not being debated.

No one's arguing that. OK, that's yeah. Save the life of the mother. If that's what has to happen, then it happens. But if you say, look, once you are going to put your name on this, I signed into law a bill that said that you can terminate the life of a baby in the womb. You can take the life of an innocent baby up to 10 weeks. If that baby is the product of rape or incest that you have now signed with unrighteousness, you have now signed with death. You are you are now co-working with the enemy.

You are now a partner of darkness. And that's what some would say. Others would say, oh, so hang on one second. So if you have to make a choice between standing on principle and losing 98 percent of the lives you could save or say, OK, right now, I'm going to have to compromise on something important to me in order to save the lives of all these others.

Do not do it. Some would say, let's just say you're in a very small town that only has one fire truck and you have two fires at the same time. And one of them is is in a nursing home. And it's almost impossible to get all the elderly out because the nature of the fire, the fire truck gets there in time. They'll save 40 lives. There's another one in a private home with one person trapped.

Where do you send the fire truck? Well, you say, well, how does it save the 40 lives than the one? Although you hate to lose the one. Do what you can for the one.

But save the 40. Isn't this the same mentality? So this is the debate that took place in Indiana. My friend who advocated for no exception clauses for rape and incest and argued for that before the secular media, when it came time to vote on this bill, voted for it, saying better to save the 98 percent plus that will be saved through this better to have the abortion clinics in our state shut down. We can always work to create a greater culture of life and address that other 1 percent and then perhaps less than 1 percent to save the health of the mother.

So that and again, that 1 percent is one that no one's arguing about. So how would you vote? Where would you stand on this 866-34-TRUTH?

I'm going to go to the phones momentarily. But first, here are the results of our Twitter poll thus far. As a pro-life Christian, if you could eliminate 98 plus percent of abortions from your state by allowing for exceptions for rape and incest and, of course, to save the life of the mother, would you vote for that law? Or would you vote against it because of the rape and incest exception? So as I'm looking at the results here on Twitter, 70.5 percent said they would vote for it.

We posted this, what, four hours ago. 70.5 percent, so better than 7 in 10, said they'd vote for it. 16.4 percent said they'd vote against it.

13.2 percent were unsure. Some really edifying, helpful comments, useful discussion in the comments. So I'm going to interact with some of those comments as well. But let's go straight to the phones.

We'll start with Emily in western Minnesota. Welcome to the line of fire. Thanks for calling.

What's your take? Hi, thanks Dr. Brown. I just wanted to say, my husband and I appreciate your ministry so much. So just that being said, honestly, personally, I had my son when I was 16, so I know about the situation, like, personally. When I found out I was pregnant, I didn't even have a thought about abortion, but both my boyfriend and my dad, they pressured me really heavily. So I stood by my conviction, and luckily my mom was there to back me up on that.

But it even got so bad that my dad threatened, you know, prison time for my boyfriend and everything. So I think we need to keep in mind that there are women out there who might not want to have an abortion, but they feel pressured. So we need to see the women that are having abortions as victims too. But as far as voting, I would vote against it, because I think that we shouldn't compromise at all in this regard, because I think when we declare that life is precious, we need to stand by that, and we need to set the tone, because I think that's how we ended up in this position in our country. We've continued to make compromises in order to accept some good, but if we're ever going to make a change long term, we need to eradicate the evil, and we need to stand by that decision.

Right, so not the incremental approach, but the all-or-nothing because of the principle. All right, friends, you get to interact on this 866-34-TRUTH. Emily, one quick question. So you're first born. How old is your child now? He's 17 now.

17. How did your father feel after he was born? Almost immediately after he was born.

The first time he held him, he fell in love with him right away. And I think in the case of rape and incest, we need to understand that two wrongs never make a right. And when women are raped, they're hurting. But that hurt can be healed by Jesus. That hurt is temporary.

But the pain from abortion lasts a lifetime. We need to stand by these women and be strong, and we need strong men to step up. And we need strong women to step up and say that this is abuse on women, it's abuse on children, and it's abuse on men. Emily, thank you for being so articulate. Thank you for your example and your comments. And for you and your husband, your kind words. Much appreciated.

Are you going to agree with Emily about the vote or not? You get to weigh in. 866-342. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the Line of Fire. Michael Brown, blessed and delighted to be with all of you. My joy, my privilege from the heart.

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Let folks know, and we will go together. But we do have a seating limit. So, the sooner you get in your deposit, the better. Okay, so, you are a legislator, right?

You are in the state of Indiana. You have a bill that's now being proposed. And it is a pro-life bill in the aftermath of the removal of Roe v. Wade. So, now these states can make their decisions on their own. Remember, the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade did not ban abortion across America.

It turned things back to the states. So, states that had laws ready to go into effect, pro-life laws, those laws went into effect. Now, some months back, we had Janet Porter on talking about heartbeat bills. And the heartbeat bills would say you cannot abort a baby after this period of time when you hear a heartbeat, etc. And the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of abortions are carried out after that. So, that would effectively eliminate the vast majority of abortions. One brother called in and said, but you are legislating the abortion of the other babies. You were saying, up until this point, it is legal. And that's wrong. And this incremental approach is wrong in God's sight.

So, we had Janet and this dear brother on to discuss these things together on the air. And I understand the nature of the debate and want to give you opportunity to weigh in. So, let's say you're a pro-life legislator. So, you argue against a clause for rape or incest. You can put in all the provisions you want to stand with the mother, to stand with the family, etc. But you say, okay, we don't want to have that exception for rape or incest.

And overwhelmingly or substantially, you get voted down. So, the only way now for the bill to proceed is with the rape, incest exception. Again, no one's debating to save the life of the mother. That part's not in debate. All right. So, it now comes to the vote.

It's not theory anymore. It comes to the vote as it did Friday. You vote for the bill and effectively outlaw 98 plus percent of all abortions in the state and cause all abortion clinics to shut down.

And now it's got to be within 10 weeks and it's got to be in a hospital by a doctor, which is also safer for the mother if she was going to have an abortion for some reason. Or you say, no, no. If we give in here, then it's compromise. You don't make an agreement with hell in order to get 98% heaven. You make a 2% or 1% agreement with hell.

You don't do that. So, that's the battle. You get Christians on both sides of it. You've got ethical arguments on both sides of it. One argument is you will never get anything done of lasting value unless you're incremental and practical. Your argument is you either trust God and do what's right or you don't.

And both arguments have Christian weight behind them. Let's go over to New York City. Franco, welcome to the Line of Fire.

What's your take, sir? Hey, how are you, doctor? It's such a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you. I've been a big fan of yours since the cold, 2000, back in New York City.

Ah. Good times, good years. Yeah, I remember it well. Yes, sir. Yeah, you, Steve Hill, a lot of good people. So, I carry your messages on the train for 20-something years already. Oh, what a blessing. Glad to be with you on the trains of New York City.

Yes, sir. I feel a lot of love for you. I feel a lot of love for my Christian fellows. And that's why this whole thing with abortion is such a divisive topic because I think that the solution of abortion is not to put women in jail.

Mm-hmm, we agree. Because we don't come from, we're not legalistic, we come from the grace, we come from the love. It's the love of Christ who transformed our lives.

It's the love of Christ who came to our hearts and changed the directions of our lives. So I think the approach of the Church shouldn't be whether abortion is legal or illegal. The abortion is the Church to change the people's lives. Because in order for people not to have abortion, young girls, I don't think the solution is to put them in jail. They need rehab, they need care, they need support.

Well, let me just ask this. No one is talking about putting women in jail in terms of the major laws that have been put forward, the legislation in different states. You may hear someone talk about that here and there, but those are not emphases of these laws. And obviously, we have to have certain laws in society.

You know, we want to change people's hearts, but we have laws against murder, against stealing. But in this particular case, sir, if you had a vote and there was one clause that says, okay, no abortions except for the case of rape and incest and saving the life of the mother, would you vote for that, or would you say, no, in conscience, I can't? What would your decision be? Well, my decision would be leave it to the women, you know? I mean, because it's not up to me to make decisions for people. It's up to me to create a character for people to make good decisions. But I can make a personal decision for that person, because it's only that person that is going to go through whatever decision she's got, that woman has to go. It's a personal decision. So let me ask you one other question.

Do you agree that we should have laws that it's illegal to drive a car while drunk? Well, yeah, but that's different, because that's not a personal, it has an impact that affects society. Ah, okay. So what about, yeah, so what about the mother's decision, how that impacts the baby and her womb? Well, that's a personal decision, too, you know? It's a very personal decision. Right, got it.

Hey, Frank. Yes, so my decision, my thing is, like, the root of the problem is not the woman is getting to have a baby. The problem is all these things that happened before, you know? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, Franco, I'm 100% with you in the church focusing on changing hearts and lives, 100% through prayer, through compassion and outreach, through winning the loss, through making disciples, through setting godly examples, through showing a better way, 100% with you that the emphasis of the church is on transformation of hearts and lives through the gospel. At the same time, where I would differ is that we do have laws in place in a society, and we have those laws for the common good. So even though I want to change the heart of the thief, I'm glad there are laws against stealing. Even though I want to change the heart of the rapist, I'm glad there are laws against raping.

So down the list here. So in the same way, I want to change the laws about abortion so that we realize we don't have the right to take the life of the child. Your body, your choice, but there's a baby's body in there.

That's not your choice in that sense. So we keep working hard to change hearts and lives while we advocate for godly laws. Hey, Franco, thank you for the very kind words, and thank you for weighing in, and amen to where our ultimate focus must be.

But do consider some of the other points I made. Hey, thank you again for calling in. 866-34-TRUTH.

Let's go to Mexico. Tom, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown, how are you doing today?

Doing well, thank you. Yeah, well, I was a young lawyer right out of law school down in New Orleans when it was a big issue, 1971. And I was somewhat strayed from the Lord.

I'd known the Lord in my youth. And the now woman, you know, used to come in and they were seeking, you know, would you stand with us on this abortion issue? And so, you know, I compromised back then.

I said, okay, though my family had been very pro-choice, the school I was in, Christian, very pro-choice. But, you know, you compromise through school, you get all this supposedly higher education. So the compromise issue is somewhat progressive in nature. You know, the progressives say little by little we'll get what we want.

And I don't know if we should really copy them. But if you could make the issue of the DNC being given within three days of the incest or within two days of the incest or the rape, when the woman doesn't even know if there's a conception, where the doctors don't even know when there's a conception, and she's going in to get a cleaning to get the junk cleaned out, whatever you want to call it, I might could go for that. But I think the answer is going to have to be the personhood amendment. It's going to have to be at the national level, because right now they're talking on the national level about codifying Roe versus Wade. So what good is this going to do in Indiana when the U.S. Senate and the House, with a slim majority, vote to codify Roe versus Wade? So this vote is kind of in vain.

Well, just to jump in, sorry to cut you off in mid-sentence, but we got a break coming up. The Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade. The current reality is that is the state across America. Therefore, every state should be doing what Indiana sought to do. In other words, every state that's pro-life should be seeking to put forward effective pro-life legislation.

As for the Senate codifying Roe v. Wade, I believe that's unlikely. But in any case, we proceed in the light that we have right now. Hey, Tom, thank you for winning in. Appreciate it. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We're the ladies. Our first caller was Emily, but every caller since then, everybody on the board in front of me, it's all male. So ladies, love to hear from you. Guys, of course, happy to hear from you, but ladies, love to hear from you as well.

866-348-7884. Before I go back to the phones, the legislation in Kansas that failed, this was responding to a 2019 Kansas Supreme Court ruling that would have found a constitutional right to abortion. I'm oversimplifying things. This bill was saying there is no constitutional right within Kansas for abortion. And the bill failed by 59 percent to 41 percent.

And Kansas is a red state. So why did it fail? Well, some claim that it was simply a matter of being massively outspent by the pro-abortion side. Others claim that it was effective to the point of deceptive and demonic messaging from the pro-abortion side that put forth a very false image of the pro-life side. Others said that the bill was put forward at a wrong time and wrong way. Others have said that it failed because it was not incremental.

It failed specifically because it did not say, OK, let's take these steps. And then when that's in place, let's take the next steps to do something more radical is only going to undermine our cause. And of course, this is being touted as a great pro-abortion victory in a red state. So I'm not here throwing stones at those who put the bill forward and tried to make this happen in Kansas.

No, certainly not. I appreciate pro-life efforts there. But there are reasons being given for why it failed in Kansas, whereas the legislature is voting within Indiana even even more strongly with even more unanimity voted to uphold these this new legislation. Again, the question is the exception clause because of rape and incest. So Tom in Mexico suggested, well, what if if there's rape or incest that the law would require an immediate DNC? So excavating of uterine tissue? Well, the problem would be what if she is pregnant? Then then you are aborting that baby just at a very early age, right? Tom's position was you wouldn't even know yet.

But God knows, the reality is that you could well be aborting a baby also to require a woman after that trauma to immediately have that done and subject yourself to surgery is a challenging thing as well. But I I'm opening the phones for your thoughts, for your proposals. 866-34-truth.

Let's let's go to within Indiana, Malachi in Gary, Indiana. Thanks for weighing in. Appreciate the call. Are you there? Yeah. Yep. I'm here. I'm here.

Go ahead, sir. Yeah. You know, I'm you know, me and my church, we are in one way very disappointed that this was not a full abolition of abortion at the same at the same time. You know, we are still partly happy believing that so many lives will still be saved with this.

Yep. But principally speaking, you know, I had hoped that more Republicans would have voted no on this bill and reworked it even further. I, you know, I can only imagine, you know, I'm not there, but I can only speculate, you know, that, you know, I would have casted a no vote to this bill. But at the same time, I'm not upset at those who wanted to have a full ban. But, you know, in order to save lives, voted yes. And then I look at those who voted no, because they want the full ban as heroic. So I can understand the frustrating, the frustrating thing, though, is the opposition wasn't mainly Democrats on this, it was other Republicans, you know, who insisted on these exceptions.

And it's just, it's frustrating. Got it. But you yourself, as you said, Malachi, you yourself, if push came to shove, you're a legislator, so you advocate it against against the rape and incest exception.

And you lost out. Now the bill is being put forward to vote on principle. You would have voted no. Right.

But I still understand those who wanted the full ban and voted yes. All clear. Hey, Malachi, you covered a bunch of sides of the issue there. And thanks for wrestling with this and thinking about it.

Appreciate it very, very much. So so far, we've we've had callers say that that you're it comes down to your vote. Will you say today we are outlawing 98 plus percent of all abortions in our state and shutting down all abortion clinics as a direct result? Or will we say to do that means to compromise and we will vote against this until we get the everything that we believe is right? That's that's the bottom line question.

That's the thing that people actually had to wrestle with. Going back to the phones in a moment over on Twitter, some of the comments here, we just click on our polling data, will vote it? Not sure, because it depends on the state. You said if the state will pass the correct bill with a little pressure, then don't vote. Get the correct bill through. Otherwise, take an improvement over nothing. People can complain. But human lives are being saved. Marissa said an imperfect law today is better than no restrictions at all while we wait for a better one. I have huge respect for the amazing pro-life voices who see this as compromise and prefer to hold their ground. But I'm happy to start here and keep on fighting. Lifles short, one crime doesn't make another acceptable.

Frankly, my dear said the perfect is the enemy of the good. You can pass this bill and still move to make it stronger. Babies will die while people wait for a perfect bill that may never come. Scott, vote for it, then keep fighting for that last one percent.

King's son. While Google translators while the pro-life Christian becomes life hostile Christian in German can't be a coincidence. Well, you never know with Google translate. Text, very thought-provoking question. It's really easy to say you wouldn't support it until you find yourself in that situation while in pro-life. I would likely support the bill with those two exceptions. And let's see. Florida line, you weren't for compromising your convictions in 2018.

Linking to an article of mine there, which I'll look at in a moment. That is because the selling out of the rights of our neighbors, no virtue defending reproductive freedom is not a vice. Mr. Hibiya, is it ever acceptable to take the life of the unborn? I understand in the case of saving the life of the mother, David, sometimes we have to take the smaller victories to lead to the bigger victories.

Nomadic. I vote against it. You don't compromise with evil.

As a Christian, we accept there is a reason God allows that pregnancy all innocent life is sacred. I'll read a few more comments on the other side of the break. But first, let's get back to your views here. We go to Fred in Atlanta. Thanks for calling the line of fire.

You're on. Hey, good afternoon. I'm all for whatever we need to do to chop away at the laws, chop away at the laws. Currently here in Georgia, you know, we have the six-week abortion ban, and then our senator here, he's also a pastor, he's pro-choice. So the question is, too, is the church, when we have woke, pro-choice pastors, that's the issue, too. You know, in the congregations.

Yeah. Fred, we played a video clip of a pastor bemoaning the overthrowing of Roe v. Wade and reached out to him, never got a response, publicly critiqued it. So you do have, look, you have it in the Bible. You had false prophets, you had false shepherds, you had false teachers, you had those that were leading Israel. Often the priests were corrupt. Paul talked about false teachers, and Peter did, others warned about them. So that's always been here. You've always had compromised clergy, you've always had people that were doing, quote, ministry, but living in sin, and so this is here.

But yes, when those that are supposed to be the watchmen on the wall are leading us the wrong way, we are really in trouble. That's right. With the senator down here, he's also the senior pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church.

Yes. And he's pro-choice, and I've been standing in front of that church since April, since mid-April with my sign, and then it ended up being—I'm gonna cry here in a minute—but it ended up feeding the homeless out there every week, but I've prayed with many people out there about them being pro-choice and attending this church, you know, and it's really making an impact, too, out there with me, just me, being out there. I'm not making a big deal out of it, you know what I mean? I'm not calling people to come out with me and protest about this guy.

I'm not doing any of that, it's just been me. And Fred, what does your sign say, Fred? Well, it says, beware of false prophets in the pulpit. But then also, I preach out there, too, about integrity in the pulpit, and righteousness in the pulpit, and just stirring up a whole can of worms out there, per se, you know? But you're finding people that do want to hear? Oh, sir, I find many people that want to hear it.

You know, the homeless people come out, too, you know? They come, I mean, it's so demonic there, too, you know what I mean? But then I've also believed this, that God wants to do a mighty work in that church, in the Ebenezer Baptist Church, because there's a history of prayer, that God wants to do a mighty work, and revival wants to hit that church, but there's a cost involved. You cannot live in sin and preach the gospel. You cannot compromise the pulpit, you know what I mean?

Yeah, and Fred, I'm just saying, just confirm this to me. Do you spend time praying for Pastor Warnock? Man, I spend hours a day, or sometimes I fast and I pray, you know? See, I just, just based on the tone of your voice, sir, the fact that you were in tears over this, the brokenness, the pain, I just assumed that this comes out of prayer, and that you pray for Pastor Warnock, that God will really get hold of him. Friends, that's what we have to do.

Yeah, we call out and expose false prophets, and we pray for their repentance, and we pray for those that they're leading astray, and we reach out with the gospel. May the Lord bless you. May Jesus himself be exalted in your life and through your life, Fred. May Jesus be highly exalted in you and through you. Thanks for calling in.

I appreciate it. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on The Line of Fire. Are you getting my emails on a weekly basis with updates on our latest resources and newest articles, newest videos? Are you getting informed if I'm speaking in your area? Are you getting informed about our trip to Israel or my newest book coming out?

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We explain how it happens, how we fall into this deception, and then where we got off track to help us stay on track. You can pre-order a signed, numbered copy now. They're going to print fairly soon, so go to the website, AskDrBrown.org, sign up for our emails, and then be sure to sign up and get a copy of the brand new book. A few more notes here on Twitter. Oh, let's see here. Yeah, others are saying, again, reflecting the polling here, that's seven out of ten say, vote for a bill containing a rape incest clause.

And they're saying, and then keep working, keep working to get rid of those clauses. Keep working for pro-life culture in the state. 17, a little under 17% said vote against it.

13%, not sure. I'll give you my, let me give you my own view, and then I'm going to go back to the phones. Again, I'm not in the position where this is anything other than hypothetical, right? This is totally hypothetical. This is not a position I'm in now as a legislator casting a vote.

And just looking at an article that someone posted of mine healing a fractured nation where I say, I'm not going to compromise any of my convictions, not at all, but it's in the context of reaching out to those on the other side of the political divide and trying to shine light into darkness, et cetera. So I believe if this had been the situation I was in, I would have done my best to remove the rape and incest clause. I would have done my best to do that, argued for that, agree for abortion in the case of saving the life of the mother, and then argued against the exception clauses for rape and incest. I probably would have argued for some legislation that would be there to help the women. Obviously you want the church to come forward and do it, but if that's not the case to, to provide help if it's needed, et cetera.

But having said, no, not for the entirety of life, but to help someone make the right decision and help them to get started in the right path if that's needed. However, if it came to a vote, ultimately we're at that moment, we could effectively shut down every abortion clinic in the state. We could send a strong message of pro-life to the nation.

We could effectively eliminate 98 plus percent of all abortions in the state immediately, right? As of that, that night when it's signed into law and now work towards the other, I would have voted for, well, while working for the rest that that would have been my position as best as I can tell from my vantage point. Now others strongly different with that, which I fully respect and understand.

And obviously we could see things either way. We could make an argument either way and it, and someone could talk me out of my position because again, it's just hypothetical, but those are my thoughts at present that I could say, okay, right now we can definitely do this. We can change the mindset. We can change much of the culture. Our state can be known as a pro-life state. And in, in reality, again, the abortion within 10 weeks in the case of rape and incest in a hospital by a doctor, you're still going to cut down on the numbers even more, even more. And then as the church continues to step forward, as you have a culture of life, as it grows, then you can eliminate the rape and incest cause at a subsequent time.

I believe I would have taken that course, but if you deeply differently, again, I fully respect that and understand that. Okay. Few more calls. Let's go to Robert in Mountain Home, Texas. Welcome to the line of fire. Dr. Brown in 1983, Billy Graham wrote a book Approaching Hoofbeats, The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And he said that if, if voters and government knew what pastors and counselors needed, they would not allow the exception for rape and incest. Now in the book, he mentioned James Robinson, who conceived in rape, who's been on line of fire before.

We also mentioned Ethel Waters, a singer and actress sang at Billy Graham Crusades. And I went to a megachurch Sunday school class, and this lady stood up and said that she was raped at gunpoint by this guy and said the Lord would not let her file charges. And years later, that guy led her mother to the Lord when nobody else had been able to. Secondly, on incest, I had always felt that any incestuous conception resulted in a child in a permanent vegetative type state. You know, so the mother was faced with a lifetime of caring for the child, or the state was responsible, or the church was responsible.

Now, that is not true at all. A lady, if you'll, if you'll do a search, Alina Marcella Medina, she, she was raped by her dad at five years old. And she carried the child, the child lived.

Wait, hang on, you're saying she, she got pregnant at five years old? Yes. Are you sure? Well, Google it. That's why I said do a search, Alina Marcella Medina. I just sent you the e-mail.

I thought I'd sent it weeks ago, but anyway. But let me just jump in. No one's, no one here on this broadcast, none of the callers for a split second are saying there should be an exception clause for rape or incest. We're all against it.

We all totally oppose it. As for incestuous relationships, there are many genetic issues that can come up. It's, it's, it's very common. But even aside from that, there is the fact of, okay, here's a 11 year old girl that's raped by her older brother. And now she, does she have to carry that child and go through the stigma?

So all of those questions. But the bottom line, sir, is if there was, if there, if there was a vote and you had to vote and the bill passes, if you vote for it and has an exception clause for rape or incest, or the bill fails, so the 98% of abortions will still be legal in your state, if, if you vote against it, how would you vote? Well, my point is, is there was a time as a pro-life activist, older than you, for 40 years, there was a time I had a real, I'm not sure I had the spinal room for rape and insects, but given the knowledge that I have now, and the science of what I have readily available, I have the spine for rape and incest.

And I think anybody else, if they looked at the facts. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. No, no, with all respect, sir, all the pro-life leaders I know that I've worked with for years and years and years, every one of them is against a clause for rape or incest. Everyone is against a clause for rape is against it because that's a baby in the womb and you don't punish the baby for the sins of the father.

All right, so you work with the mother to help her and you believe that working with the mother, ultimately she's going to be glad to have that child. By the way, James Robinson is one of my dearest friends on the planet. Jerry Hill, the wife of late evangelist Steve Hill, one of my closest friends back then, and, and the greatest evangelist I worked with here in America. Steve's wife, Jerry was, was conceived in rape. We've had folks on the air to talk about that they were conceived in, in rape.

So we understand the value of every life, every single life. And we know there are people that God's used and blessed that were conceived in incest. So we're not arguing for a split second for the morality of the rape or incest clause. That's, that's never been the debate on the show.

All right. Never been a debate with me cause that's still a baby in the womb. Question is if you could stop 98% of all other abortions today while working to eliminate the abortion clause for rape and incest, would you do it?

Would you say no, that would be a compromise by conviction. Again, there's an argument either way, a Christian argument either way. And it's where we need to hear each other patiently and pray and avoid sweeping accusations, name calling, you're partnering with Satan, things like that. All right. Which, which no one here said, but others have been told that and let's do our best to hear each other out, understand the position. And I fully understand the view that says I couldn't sign.

I could not sign because in signing I would be saying yes to the rape and incest clause. I fully respect that and understand it fully respected. Understand it. I think there needs to be understanding for those who said, let's get a massive saving of life today and work to save these other lives tomorrow. Hey friends, thanks for the discussion. We'll be right back tomorrow. Oh, another program powered by the truth network.