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Dr. Brown and Prof. Craig Keener: Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
March 12, 2019 3:26 pm

Dr. Brown and Prof. Craig Keener: Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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March 12, 2019 3:26 pm

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Join me today for a special interview with Prof. Craig Keener as we talk about a new book. Not afraid of the antichrist stage for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I really been looking forward today gives me an opportunity to talk with a dear friend, Prof. Craig Keener, Prof. at Asbury theological seminary, one of the world's most respected New Testament scholars I constantly use his volumes so many famous books is written, award-winning books commentaries run into many thousands of pages in the book of facts and other popular studies. He loves the Lord and he loves God's church and he loves the word and together we've written a book called, not afraid of the antichrist.

Why we don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Now the subtitle was more are seeing the title was with the publisher came up with, but we are talk about the book today.

It is being released to the general public. Next week, March 19, but you can order from our website now to gather with the interview of today so available. Not afraid of the antichrist and Craig great to have you on the air, how you doing today man doing all your wonderful that we were normally pretty late late night people, but I hope I hope this is not too early in the day for the interview. It help you to be everywhere here any kind.

Michael wonderful so so Craig let's let's talk about origins. You came to faith you had been an atheist and you came to faith as a teenager and you didn't have Bible background before that.

So what did you first begin to hear of this idea that Jesus would return with a secret rapture take his people out and then there'd be seven years of tribulation great tribulation.

And then Jesus would return. When did you first come to hear this and believe it. Figure I better believe it caught Baker's baby cricketer. While it really did know anything so I didn't care except of doubt, along with all the other church during the teaching, but it bothered me because I dutifully memorized Scripture reference is backing up of the doctrine as I read the Scriptures for that context, we actually didn't say that though you know I figure well they know better than I do, but eventually court became a problem because I never did find any scriptures that actually supported the doctrine so you were saved a few years.

When you then stopped believing that specifically would you say yeah I think so. It would somebody told me they had a dream in which the church was going through the tribulation and 8 April. I didn't think they were Eric they connected on the light. Come to think of it, and really can't think of any Scripture that says but we won't, but I would learn the basics of green, but if I as they went back through the Scriptures myself and actually tried to see what they said I realized it didn't say that and then strike, I changed my position and then a P Custer there. Custer was the pre-tribulation.

Currently he really didn't care. I think you were wrong but divisive issue with the guest of Angela, who was teaching on anti-prophecy.

She was so committed to this he took the entire afternoon. One Sunday. Set me down and try to run it throughout the Scriptures supported the pre-tribulation rapture and one by one.

He went through these verses one by one. Let's look at the context and it refuted everything he was standing and then finally exasperated. It was very patient with but exasperated if I that what all men of God are pretrip.

Jim Baker's pretrip record pretrip.

Who do you think you are you going to been a Christian for a couple years you know I've been beaten for my faith on the street and so on for witnessing for Christ. He was right. I don't get a Christian.

A couple years and so I figure right I need to believe what you're telling me even I couldn't see it. Scripture and so one day I heard another pastor say that up until 1830, nobody believed doctrine any named also the famous people, men and women of God and church history are Luther, Calvin Wesley on Augustine.

None of them believed and so that gave me the courage to their calendar to go back and search the Scriptures myself and I was a turning point in my life, not simply because of this doctrine because I just cannot not believe what people tell me the Bible says search the Scriptures myself and see what the Bible actually sent an inquiry when you are searching the Scriptures you are reading the Bible a lotlet let our listeners and viewers know what your Bible reading habits were at that time Victor to find all of my early Christian like you. There were times like every week the real work in another time without rugby through the New Testament once a week or agree to the Bible once a month and not another time. So energy reported Chuck of the Bible day you can get through a lot that was helpful to me.

I came from a non-Christian background. I have a lot of catching up to do yeah and you know it's so interesting and please tell us stories of the book. Not afraid of the antichrist. Why we don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and we were approached to do this by our friend Jane Campbell wonderful editor chosen books is we've never made this a divisive subject, and we work together with pre-tribulation brothers and sisters who love the Lord and in whom we honor, but it's so interesting that that we had a real parallel experience, I came to faith in the pretrip church and I believe because that's Amanda. I got safe there and they knew better than I did in an they would teach me the word and love the Lord, and these were important documents to them so that's I read Scripture and I had a streak where for six months. I was memorizing 20 verses a day without missing a day and then the first couple years with through the Bible cover to cover about five times and a friend of my came and said Mike I own stomach. The rapture second coming to differences in trying to figure that out and asked me some questions about Matthew 24 I thought you know the guys in the church.

Just know it better because I haven't read the Bible day and I don't really see it so I bought all the books you J Dwight Pentecost book things to comment on Woolford's volume Debbie Blackstone Clarence Larkin is like now.

I mastered at the seventh trumpet here was different than the last trumpet here in and I got really dogmatic and argued it in the same deal someone shows me this book that this wasn't taught before, like 1830 and then it hit me when you're sick.

Whether it's true or not but I didn't get this reading the Bible on my own.

I got this by somebody telling me that scheme. So obviously were respectful of those that differ with us but have you ever met someone who just kind of reading the Bible and isolation came up with this whole pretrip understanding and system never read part of the year to make to come to my final decision. The growing okay. I'm going to try to read it if I hadn't been taught. Either way, I hadn't been taught either way would I distinguish the rapture second coming or what. I assumed that they were the same event and once I get that it was clear it was actually simple because you have to divide verses in the middle. For example, the day of the Lord is coming like a thief in the night in which the heavens will calculate great stories and the elements will melt with fervent heat and that where you can holder tribulation. If that beginning. Yeah, there's a reason I think white places where it hasn't been taught.

People don't believe it. Yes, so again there's a lot that we learn through reading Scripture and then other believers, gifted teachers, church history, and lightness gives further insight. But the question is would you ever come up with this unroll one of the key things for me.

Craig was looking at the New Testament vocabulary and and even though you're the New Testament scholar that part of the of the book all you encourage me to do the New Testament vocabulary so all the verses that allegedly referred to a rapture which is a secret hidden event role just taken out all speak of his arrival, a public appearing in a look at what he tells about the meaning of power see it which speaks of a coming arrival was iconic. A big event that the Emperor's arrival or something in the ancient world are fairly wide range credit. Although that would contact right yeah what important person like a king or dignitary of been like that. This was a descriptive big event and people from the city would actually go out to meet the person and as part of honoring them would form their escort on the way into the city without winter you can't press too much.

They would always have to mean exactly the same thing in every context. But it is interesting that at first millennium, it does use that same word for meeting the kind of meeting you would have official dignitary alongside Parthia and that would seem to imply that when the Lord comes back. We meet him on his way down so you don't read too much and about you can't say that after work you did you know our meeting in the near were on our way up. It can really mean were on our way to meet him on his way down to Ruby or anything with that's high in some of the Jewish wedding customs or perhaps the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 is a similar kind of picture. Well, Matthew 25 Doug don't speak of the meeting of that kind and that's actually how the word elephant tasers for meetings used everywhere else in the New Testament where you go up to meet and inform the escort writes in other words, someone has to turn around either the Lord comes from heaven secretly catches us up turns around and goes to heaven or he comes down from heaven were caught up to meet him and turn around.

This is escort in the center earth with him. I friends were going to unpack this some more you talk about this practically why this matters some poignant stories from what happened in China when communism rose and believers were not adequately prepared or taught the new book. Not afraid of the antichrist. Prof. Craig Keener and your streusel will unpack this more open things up. It will take some calls, 866-3487, we will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor file now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown that we experience writing Craig is that you and I wrote a book together and combined. It's only like 200 pages as opposed to 2000 page assess cadaveric but okay we we alternate sometimes we were both speaking with one voice, otherwise were alternating chapters and things like that but as as you begin to lay things out beginning of the book all you talk about suffering church and in Africa some places where believers were to slaughter what you start there. What you bring those things up.

It could be pre-tribulation and believed the persecution of the real thing may not be a lot of pre-tribulation believed that there are people who will say things like, well, I'm just glad we were going to get out of here before he could barely and it's important on a practical level to realize that things have gotten bad Christians throughout history, there is nothing more they can do to you and to kill your body over the Internet for long time and so we as Christians the moment we become Christian.

Jesus said if you really want to be my disciple pick up your cross and follow me. For the moment we we commit our lives to Christ our lives in this world and forfeit because we have committed to a destiny with Christ, sharing the cross of the we recognize that we have eternal life were ready to give up their lives in this life it is needed and think it's important to call the church back to that now.

Again the pre-tribulation work can agree with the amount but I think it's important to just see the reality of what was happening around the world first John says further than antichrist is coming, even now there are many Christ else you've heard the persecution coming even elders left the persecution through it's important to be reminded we don't automatically get out of yeah now of course some would say well the tribulation is uniquely the wrath of God not appointed to wrath.

Of course you deal with with those verses in the book or was it mean to be not appointed to wrath at such, we come back to that tomorrow. I'm gonna discuss some of the major pretrip arguments in and take those up, but when you mentioned some believers some preacher believers having this view, that will be out of here before it's really bad they don't always distinguish some of them then almost distinct between the wrath of God and just hard time so you tell a story about communist China I had.

I had heard it myself.

I wanted to research it's more you verify it. What happened to the believers in communist China. Why were they upset after they were able to talk to the missionaries again after years of persecution. Yeah, I can't speak for all of China. I would like to coordinate the major mission organization in the US when word came from China opened up again to the missionary after like 40 years and maybe not as missionaries but favorite people were allowed to go in from the outside and for the missionaries went back to places where there their mission had started churches and good political Christian go with week you will be ruptured before the pretrip plate and you will thought you looked enraptured to do it herself, and given alive been to prison and so forth. Right.

So if we think about it. If people are burned alive for the gospel or tortured to death for the gospel start to get the gospel buried alive for the gospel.

It's unlike the antichrist is going to do that any worse and more severely these things are being experienced, but through the book of week we end the book. Both of us. With chapters of encouragement. Why is it so important to have a mentality of overcoming as opposed to a mentality of escapism actually major CHURCHES have different takes book 2 of them are very similar. For the most part it is you search of better equipping their church. The church and started up the church related to the other think they need to open the door to Jesus and stop being thinking self sufficient.

You have church started to be faithful to her death. You have church basement different think the church the block first love basement different things with each of them is called overcome there. We don't get to look at somebody else at trial.

They are going out that child and when it got to try one thing I never could go through that we don't get to pick her child, but all the are called overcome and death actually were. Revelation move sometimes you get fixated on the details court.

They go through the book or the kind of scores with you different times and places in our world tsunami, earthquake, persecution, and so on. But if the same time that the book ultimately climaxes in a vision of hope and promise to those who overcome that we will inherit the things it in the new heavens and the newer will be his children. It is her father and sister.

The promise of eternal blessing is a contract in Revelation between Babylon city of the stage and the new Jerusalem. The promised age to come.

For those who are believers and that contrast between these two cities is a beautiful contrast one is portrayed as a prostitute. What is portrayed as a bright and those who are willing and faith to wait to be the bride bookkeeper so secure and we want with the values of this change lives for the values of people who don't with the base become all we can get is in this life will live.

The value of the promise of the coming age, can we really believe it seems Revelation sometimes were so intimidated by the visions and the symbolism in the files and wrath, trumpet seals and that we miss the larger message of the book just a message of hope and an overcoming Craig what about these verses in Matthew 24 as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man, prison those days before the flood they were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when no one entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man sums to look at looks like normal life is going on and that can't be the description of the tribulation a great tribulation.

This is normal life going on and suddenly the believers enraptured out and and then later there's a public second coming at the end of time of calamity above a fume about what's being described here. Seems like his normal life and then suddenly Jesus returns takes people out.

How can this be referring to life during the tribulation are eating, drinking, marrying, giving in marriage systems like normal life's going on was we wouldn't think that the tribulation a great tribulation is a description of normal life. Go for some people in the book of Revelation. You have people celebrating and giving gifts over the witness this event killed.

You do have the picture of the world going on, but also I think with most important in the text is that they talk about Jesus coming back at the end and it talks about one person being taken and the other person being left and in Luke Luke 17 where it talks about one person being taken, the other being left the disciple specifically asked where Lord where they take. And Jesus says wherever the court is best for the vultures will be gathered to limit your judgment and also in Matthew 24 minutes. Also parallel to those were taken in the flood that is taken in judgment. Note in other words, people will be unprepared for the final judgment, the day of the Lord will come in the night, but everywhere in the New Testament where there's any context tells you what it means by the day of the Lord coming like night. It has to do with his coming in judgment and it is his second coming is coming to judge the world, not got the beginning of the tribulation.and and the first will represent the corpses are the corpse of there the vultures will be what you understand this me since a picture of judgment.

But how would you interpret that verse I see it pretty much like what you have. Revelation 19 with fear where you got the marriage supper. The lamp of the right at that time and then you have a great regard for the vultures. You also have an Ezekiel number places in the Old Testament and even in Greek and Roman literature when they would describe battle scene they would often describe the vultures coming in the carcasses of those who been slain, so it's definitely a new image of judgment wasn't quite sound like were being caught up to feast with Jesus in heaven. I don't think they're going to be in the carcasses and vultures.

There correct it yet.

So friends of look at it little bit more depth with Prof. Craig Keener at second Thessalonians chapters 1 and two and I'll revisit some of this tomorrow as well is a response to some your posts and questions are new book, not afraid of the answer.

Christ will believe in the pre-tribulation rapture you will find it's not divisive. Rather, it's edifying going to the word above all this hope hurried sitting. Jesus are more than conquerors no matter what comes our way right back and by Expo light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown, the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture was not taught until within the last 200 years, maybe 100, 60, 70 years that it was unknown in the early church that was unknown through church history, is that really so I can think of a better person to ask than the co-author of my latest book, not afraid of the answer. Christ why we don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture Prof. Craig Keener and Craig, I mean it when I said I'm constantly using your commentaries. God's really gifted you to study to learn to to present your research in in to to so many. So we have been blessed and edified by your material and and I mean that not just as a friend but is some of his benefited so much from you work in any gift that God's given you so you are that you can write on a popular level and teach and preach on a popular level, but there's a massive amount of information that's always in your brain is your doing this. Is it inaccurate to say that this is a new doctrine that the pre-tribulation rapture was not taught or believed in the early church or through church history, until someone in the 1800s. Yeah, that's correct. And what about the idea yet that there would be a pre-millennial return of Jesus that Jesus would return and set up a thousand year kingdom on the earth.

What was that held through church history, actually, church history of the millennium very quite a bit actually reading the book were very early second century and excerpt or quote if you're reading this morning while morning for me and I'm like Kristin but pay.

Clearly believed in the future thousand years from later church fathers made fun of him for that, but Irenaeus.

Justin Martyr apparently did so in the second century. The belief that there was a future thousand years was pretty common, it it, we we read from the sources, it wasn't the only view that the apparently the prevailing view.

By the time you get to: Constantine is Emperor, premillennial dirt definitely on the out. In fact, Euphemia church historian writing and that 300 complained about premillennialist because you know unlike other heretics. We were deeply premillennialist were able to be talked out of their air (strong but yet you have buried your church history so Augustine, Luther, Calvin, were all on the line the old. It is believed were in the millennium now symbolic and the earliest church fathers were premillennial and then in the in the 1800s and the US we read about these great revivals were actually going back. Jonathan Edwards stroked Benny that half-million people to Christ in the mid-1800s, and so on.

They tended to be post-millennial, that is they believe we would establish God's kingdom on earth and and set up the throne. And then Jesus would come back very optimistic view.

I don't it actually can get the weaker of the views, even though it's making a comeback today, but the other been different due to millennium note but regarding the tribulation. Note that the yeah and what's interesting also suit we can tell the disciples of the apostles and their disciples believed in a premillennial return of Jesus, but not pre-tribulation will so they saw that God had given little promises to Israel that was going to be referred out there was going to be fulfilled. You've written a massive Comintern, the book of acts unprecedented amount of research when they come to print it out like 6000 pages or or something. Acts 16 an important passage where the disciples asked Jesus the bid within 40 days after his resurrection, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel.

John Calvin says that that question has more errors in it that it has words and yet Jesus doesn't rebuke them for you doesn't say what a stupid question. He basically says great questions just not for you to focus on.

You need to focus on the great commission, were they asking a valid question about God restoring the cans. Israel did God make promises to Israel, but he still been to keep your guard good to great, when the disciple the question directly greeted the object questioning the context back number three is been talking about the kingdom versus 45 you talk about. You read the Old Testament prophet Ezekiel 36 Ezekiel 37 jewel to translation Isaiah, a number of factors. 44 and so on.

Talk about the time when God pours out his spirit is also the time when God restored his people and fulfills his promises, I believe it is.

I'm a Gentile believer. I believe that Jim felt followed by are grafted into salvific leak that heritage. But, but also I believe you. Romans 11 is pretty clear, but any were just sticking with tax.

Jesus doesn't spank know that the bad question and obvious question. He said that if not for you know the time the artist placed under the authority but here's the issue with the powers you could be witnesses for me in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and of the outermost parts of your MFS the tone for the rest of acts yeah and then of course that's three, Peter says that Jesus must remain in heaven. The time for the restitution of all things spoken by the prophet so he says with the prophets spoke of will literally come to pass. So you and I hold to a premillennial return of Jesus were we we don't divide over that obviously also we do believe that their future promises to Israel that will be fulfilled.

That's not what's being denied. It's a matter of kind of splitting things in an analog at the second Thessalonians, but let's just unpack something about dispensational theology that makes a radical separation between the church and Israel one on the one hand, we know God may promises to Israel is to keep and we know that saved Israel and the saved nations constitute the ecclesia that the church but what you have a problem with this. The the strict separation. The dispensation was make between Israel and the church.

Strict separation of the deal would also make a distinction between the original just a short but likely 30 right hand progressed at the rental good.

There is a different but speaking of the original dispensationalism John Nelson Darby is reacting against legalism and the church that we have to find some way to separate law from gospel. It works better so he separated the chronologically for a bit, well, everything before certain point that's for Israel. Now were in the church age.

But God is good to deal with this really can during the great tribulation and then during the millennium and he said God can't deal with the church and Israel same time, which I don't think somebody after 1948 would extend that. But in linking 30. You said that God can't deal with Israel and the church the same time, Weldon God can have the rapture of the church before the tribulation. That was basically not an exegesis of pathogen about the pre-tribulation rapture of of any sort.

It was based on his theological premise for God to deal with the church with Israel. At times, to distribute tribulation for Israel and for the last seven years the church will be here and didn't even divide up the Gospels for example the summit on the Mount was considered to be the Constitution for Israel's millennial kingdom and not for the church today and so much of the New Testament wasn't for the church. They did the earliest.

Dispensationalism was not there theology. I think it would joke told about about them.

The kid got into a fight at school would get a black eye come down to you. He didn't start the fight, but to get back in the month that we should get back in. Don't you know what Jesus said about turning the other cheek and the boys that are mounted to the Jew yet act with the traditional era in which they would like to get your being phased out. That's why the early to do things can't be for today so if you're holding strict dispensational view in the early begin progressive dispensational are more open anything but that was that was why it is that the gifts of the Spirit don't happen today and things like that really don't fit the reality of it.

We see in today's world and scriptures is so interesting that so many dispensations today are charismatic was the earliest lungs with a bend to charismatic white set for a second Thessalonians 1 into but that's maybe unpack the first chapter before the break and come back to the second chapter. On the other side of the break this to me is a very strong passage in terms of a post-relational passage you feel the same way you open that up when you're dealing with some of the passages they clearly point to post-relational view so explained to her listeners why. Second Thessalonians 1 points to post-tribulation coming as opposed to pre-tribulation coming. Let me reconvert review from the numerical standard to the plain indication of God's righteous judgment. You'll be considered worthy of God's kingdom, which indeed your suffering for after all it's only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and the same target word in Greek tribulation Christer Grayson of the white subject give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, so we received relief from tribulation when Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire is that at the beginning of the tribulation goes on to say that time is going to deal out retribution to those who don't know God, who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus will pay the penalty of eternal distraction at the time when it comes to be glorified with income to date so the time when when the sphincter glorified. He's glorified enough we get her glorified body.

The time that we receive rest from suffering is also the same time that he comes to bring eternal destruction of the wicked right and Craig when when I was studying this many years ago. Some some dispensations office, the devil, that's what Paul was saying, but just like the Old Testament authors didn't see there was a distinction between the first and second coming. Paul didn't get it that there was had to stink for between the rapture and the second belly. I thought the whole process yet one of those clear versus second Thessalonians to become active new book that afraid the antichrist retainer and diverse truth. It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 86643 here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I apologize holding on the line for a while really want to devote every minute I can with Prof. Keener but I promise I plan to be taking lots of calls next week.

Have pretrip call and days were folks can share their views and differences all get your call before the show without my apologies.

So Craig we go to second Thessalonians. The second chapter and that to would seem to point very clearly to a post tribulation rapture sought a muscular through it meant that all all probe with a few questions that follow shirt to "buy talking about Jesus return of people apparently think that he is already come back to all all regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering together to him that in Greek is also the reduction of the Greek grammar so I don't push it. I don't load everything on the grammar here, but normally in Greek the way you would take the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to him by referring the same event, the Parthia and our gathering together to Jesus and don't worry that that is already happened that the day of the Lord is already come. Identifying these with the vehicle board. He says in chapter 203 don't let anybody tricky or it will not come in Kobe to think up the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness destruction who posed as an adult. About every so-called god or object of worship, taking his seat in the temple, displaying himself as being God. Note it clearly says that is coming in are gapping to him will not come in Kobe and Capt. Bert know if the thing are are with you, we regard you think that the great tribulation, then it looks like that has now been before were gathered pretty explicit, and the only question would be whether the greater glacial or not pre-tribulation worked almost always stated right and is there some try to argue that the Greek word, apostasy, a confined holding this translation, the Senate refers to Leica, not just the falling away a rebellion but it taken away and it's a secret reference to the rapture of course every every lexicon references apostasy is falling away rebellion, apostasy. But, correct me if my reasoning is wrong here.

Even if someone was trying to argue that he saying the rapture has to come first and against the worst word to use if that was his point on the right. He's eating then next says that the man of sin is can be revealed. So he's telling us were going to see the antichrist right of me no matter how you try to get away from many of apostasy, a, which clearly is rebellion, apostasy. He saying that why is he telling the medicines can be revealed if you be out here before it happens that it is my logic wrong. There yeah you everything you you're not going to back up don't think authority happened don't think the Lord already come back. You haven't been amenable write it out and thrown himself and got the and and then when it talks about the man of sin this antichrist being revealed there was going to see him. Then at an end. This can be a republic. Then Jesus is going to destroy him with his coming in his revealing. And that's the event were waiting for right word art at the end of the Carthage beginning the cottage is lucky, you might work talk about uncle Fred.

You'll do that tomorrow but let's keep thinking to silent exactly the same wording which would be very confusing to us were starting right got a suck.

Same thing right so if if I was trying to explain to people.

Okay so this is can happen waiting for the second coming and will be taken up caught up to meet Jesus instantly seven year tribulation and then there's the second coming will become with Jesus did symbolize the use of the second coming was seven years old gets low confusing and that's when the book I talk about going to pick up uncle Fred at the airport that is two different times. You pick him up into different descriptions of uncle Fred is like those uncle Fred will the same way. The only way we can make this work is we have these different terms rapture versus second coming with the thing were looking forward to is the calming were longing for his appearing right what what when he reveals himself that's that's our great hope and it's a pretty mind-boggling thing. I mean, I don't think Holly was. Everyone tried to do this but will be caught up to him the dead in Christ was resurrected and living rooms will be caught up to him when he appears in that's that's the way it's going the whole world and the CM will be caught up together with them. That's a pretty intense secret appearance of believers mentioned that the New Testament, it is very visible, public appearing and what about the issue of trumpets it says in first Corinthians 15 that and it's with him about the last trumpet will be changed in the the dead Messiah will rise. Just think, there can be any trumpets after the last trumpet you think last means last, but I think it speaks of the resurrection they were premillennial reading Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection.

The end of the tribulation.

I think last trumpet are coming means lack. I think Paul knows of the teaching as we have it in Mark 13, and Matthew 24 and out all the poet both. He alludes to his lot in Perth this morning or if I think about going to the language is very similar, including being gathered on when he speaks about the trumpet and then in first printing 15. At the resurrection. When the last enemy that last enemy of the great black and mute death. When at last enemy is defeated after the time of the last trumpet is referring back to Jesus speaking about the trumpet where he could gather together his chosen one after the days of the tribulation. Matthew 24, 29 to 31 very explicit fair yeah and and when it says it comes with the sound of the trumpet. In Matthew 24 and first Thessalonians 4 and first Corinthians 15 it's obviously all the same things talking about the kings of this will become the kingdom of our God.

If we went that Revelation 11, the sum of the seven trumpets and I remember having to teach that the last trumpet was different for trumpets after the last trumpet and that there were trumpets after the seventh trumpet is the seventh of seven like essays you raise us up at the last day but the last day is followed by seven years a lot of things is to get much much more complicated and then the whole idea of him coming as a thief in the night.

First Thessalonians 5, speaks to that, should he be coming as a thief in the night for us will exactly.

Speaking of the day of the Lord just like the Lord will come and go to the blog revealed Bert first authority in the day of the Lord conflict. Pete midnight but you are not in darkness, you should be overtaking.

Despite the rather wicked will be overtaking the anti-described their fate noted near the tribulation but at sudden destruction note echoing very much what you have in Matthew 24 Matthew 24 speaks of one part dear which is after after the tribulation. The context in which speaks of coming like the light people say if the 50 doesn't come before the tribulation.

We can count down the date though you know you won't be imminent, you will be unexpected not with the text that many text about the pizza midnight you come like a thief and like to have passed away with great noise, the elements will melt with fervent heat second Peter 310 but took no way you can make it back to just be talking about the beginning of the tribulation talking about Jesus coming at the end to rule.


And even as you mentioned in the book the whole, the whole idea of of all counting the days. First, it's presupposing that will know exactly tribulation started to know a great tradition started today and you mentioned Jesus saying that the second elect those days will be shortened.

Was it referring the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 years. Referring to the end of the age of elect to be debated, but yeah, you know, the idea that we are to be able to figure it at anything with like okay we got like 11 minutes and 14 seconds left, and in light of how God unfolds things in history that has little a little presumptuous, but again our heart friends in writing the book was not to bash other views were respectful of other views. We, Craig and I work with pre-tribulation scholars preach relational believers pastors we have all of our believing lies. Craig was funny I've worked with some guys 25 years and more animal even though they believe about it is in all of our years working side-by-side. It's a really come up so so we kept this no reason to divide over this, but folks should look afresh at the Scriptures. Craig would got a minute what you hoping readers will get out of our book, not afraid of the antichrist. You can read the Bible for yourself. Get a lot more simple when you take out the profit the teachers yet another thing to focus our hope hopefully you are hope is not getting out. Nothing in this life are hope is not getting out of the last seven and 3 1/2 years of this page. Believers in the 40 generations or so before you go through, even if it even is more intense globally. Are you looking for just that is going to be a day I great talking to Craig love and appreciate love you

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