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Dr. Brown Dialogues with a Former Pro-Life Leader

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
July 20, 2022 5:10 pm

Dr. Brown Dialogues with a Former Pro-Life Leader

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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July 20, 2022 5:10 pm

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The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network used to be a prominent leader in the pro-life movement.

But now as a minister's views have changed dramatically. Why time for the light a fire with your host scholar and cultural commentator Dr. Michael Brown your voice for more savvy and spiritual clarity called 866-34-TRUTH to get on the line of fire and now there's your host Dr. Michael Brown, a very interesting conversation today very candid conversation. I really have no idea in which direction this conversation will go but I been looking forward to having this is Michael Brown. Welcome to the broadcast I will not be taking calls during the broadcast. So sit back and enjoy every minute you the background to this a few weeks ago I happened to spot a tweet from Rev. Rob Schenck said this ending Roe V Wade starts the greatest moral test for the so-called pro-life movement. I helped lead for 30 years anti-abortion donors gave hundreds of millions of dollars endless hours to Edinburgh. They now do even more to help women, children, families and communities around them. No, so I I took strong exception to this tweet. I know that Rev. Shank and I really know each other personally over the years but certainly with his brother Paul. He was a well-known pro-life leaders. He said for several decades. He is currently president of the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Institute and author of the book costly grace and evangelical ministers rediscover your faith, hope and love.

So out of my respect for Rev. Shank because I was going to differ with this publicly. I asked to become on the air and immediately suggests he would. So here we are already Rob Schenck, welcome to the line of fire broadcast. Thank you Dr. Brown like alright so let me ask if you promote preliminary questions. Alright and were II know a little, but I'm going to ask is if I don't know anything right. What are your current views on the Bible authority of Scripture. Salvation through Jesus alone went when you stand on those issues as there is a minister for court Scripture regarding public cookbook retirement.

Although, I might allow for you dollars euro apocryphal, or deuterocanonical category, though there might be one or two others, but the 66 books we know commonly of the old and New Testament committee are the inspired word of God and print animated by the word of God W of the living word of God in Jesus Christ and his final rule for faith and practice for me as an evangelical Christian.

Of course, that all entered around the person of Christ who is the only being of salvation or lost humanity so you're answering that question, would you say in a similar way to the way you would've asked 20 years ago maybe with nuances, but overall your steam for the authority of Scripture and the work of Jesus, which you said it pretty much remains the same today as 20 years ago you got it correct that a little differently because I studied, learned that reflected on all of the in a deeper way. In the last 20 years but on the whole you got it okay that that's important to lay out initially afraid for my understanding as well as for the understanding of her listeners because you say some things I imagine as we go on were people might question that's that's all wanted to start their and and be absolutely fair and and then what you say.

In short, was the great motivation for you to be involved in the pro-life movement and then again in short, because this is your life story here what caused the shift to your position now and in that obviously can articulate with where it's changed short well you pick question but I didn't recording with metal for over a decade. So it is hard to you know will appreciate it can't take those answers but in an attempt to do so. Also very first my motivation for being involved in ventilator taking leadership in the pro-life movement was first because I thought that the quintessential expression of the second commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves.

And I thought of the pre-born child at the nearest neighbor, so courts were commanded to love our neighbor is also factored into my concept of the sanctity of human life, but every human life is sacred, unique, unrepeatable, created by God. And so I wanted to defend that human life so that was my motivation to get involved then as the years went on I saw more and more of the focus of the movement gravitating away from that principle and more toward political operations and victories that had to do with everything from scoring points in public disputes and argumentation over this to scoring victories at the ballot box and on the floors of state and legislature in the Congress passing laws and and you know confidently at the Supreme Court winning cases and then getting the right nominating onto the bench who would render the decision that we just got which was the reversal of broken great that that progression away from the moral core of the political outcomes caused me to look at not just the movement but my my whole perception of abortion differently and then came a crisis. Dr. Brown and it was actually well on will in jail in Montgomery, Alabama for protest activity and First Amendment free-speech stuff and because the jail was overcrowded.

I was put on the psychiatric wing of that of the Montgomery county jail and it was coed weirdly men and women in the cells in about three doors away from me was a woman who was in great distress, and she was screaming all day long relentlessly screaming out where my baby. I have three babies that I have three kids where our that goes with them.

I need to get to my baby nobody came to her aid, not a single person came to assuage her to assure her calm her. It just went on all day long, and what happened in that moment was suddenly bubble that I had been living for 30 year of pro-life movement leadership burst because what I always imagine was that when a woman cried out like that she would be surrounded by Christian people who would love on her take care of her and her children come to her aid, support her, but this woman had no one. And suddenly my fantasy about all the fat match very harshly with reality and as a result I had to set up a whole different framework.

It was over time it took me a long time to do it but I had to look at this whole question looks like of women in this unique utterly and completely unique price of their children. Our society and even the church. I had to look at them through a framework of reality. And I realized that for 30+ years I had demanded that people like her leave her reality and enter life at the instead of what I now use the biblical mandate a Christ like mandate to leave my comfortable fantasy and enter her reality. That's the best way I can answer your first. I appreciate you doing it in such a concise way again. The journey of decades. Appreciate you doing that and doing it in articulately and really think you understand you have differences here.

The key thing is that you understand that I'm speaking to you with respect that if I push back in a hard way.

It's not to demean your position or to despise the journey that you been on but I want to be sure that you know that you have the ability to speak to me with absolute candor all right and and that I will do the same. So let let make that yet.

Let me let me raise something here and and then will get over to your tweet but I appreciate you being willing to take the time I don't want to rush this wanted to be able to speak candidly, but putting aside the prison experiences. I don't know who's going to be there and to respond within that the setting of a prison as opposed to just in the general community and putting aside your own experience with politics interfacing with the pro-life movement will will impact all of those but I still understand how going through that changes in any way. The fact that Scripture makes very clear that's a child within the womb, that science makes clear that's a child within the womb, and that we have the wholesale slaughter of well over 60 million babies in the womb.

Most of the great majority simply for elective reasons, not for rape, incest or the health of the mother were cases where people would debate more so you get the issue of yes what can we do to help communities of the living and in a more holistic way that that's always in the Jesus of the poor. You always have with you so what can we do to address that very real issue of caring for children that are here caring for orphans that are here caring for kids in the foster care system that are here so address this very real issues while stopping the slaughter of the unborn in the womb and the shedding of innocent blood which God so hates so we come back in the other side of the break that that's the question I'd like you to address the Bibles to clear the Bible hasn't changed in terms of the pictured point paints of the, the humanity of the child within the womb, the horror of abortion remains with this in terms of what's being done to the unborn soul. Even if you say, hey, we've neglected is gracious and holistic failed to love our living neighbor outside of the stemware your position on abortion would change at all, so will be right back. That's my question for you, sir. Roxanne is the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown got on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown book costly grace.

So before the break. I've asked the question, even if you said while were we get too political about this with lost sight of the real heart of the pro-life movement. When I caring for the living among us outside of the womb. How would that change your view that that abortion is is a grave sin in God's sight.

Well part of it go actually back to what you know and do this to make it to get involved in defending regarding human life to begin with, which was unique of every shipment. That the newly conceived children is unique from the parents about you. Well that unique carry all through life.

Everything human is unique.

I think in that way we reflect an attribute of God because God is unique and we are created in the image of God. We are also created and you make the and the reason that I emphasize this is because every human experience is unique and that's particularly true of pregnancy, gestation her childhood human development aging.

Every part of. We can't ever say this person is just like that part. I have an identical twin brother, you know, he and I were both leaders of the movement so we are close. We are literally close of each other. We have mirrored the other day, but he is still very different from me and he experiences things very differently than I experienced.

That's especially true of a pregnant woman. A woman facing pregnancy experiencing pregnancy experiencing birth child rearing unique child and I used the kind of fee that all lump together all day and it's not to say just just to be clear, though, is that a human being and only pre-born human being in God's sight.

Okay so question about okay so even if the situation is very unique that it's it's an unwanted unexpected pregnancy it's it's a child would be born to a family that's ready impoverished right as opposed to just somebodies one night stand and say at whatever will just abort the baby so we recognize that, but is there still a legitimate reason to terminate an innocent pre-born life just because of hardship, potentially, on the other side of things no just because of that, but I think that that treatment but error that some women do experience proved her fear of panic anxiety on level, I can't protect her irate.

I remember when I was present for the birth. My children and on one occasion my wife and labor all honey. I know it's hard cheese that you don't know anything about writing was absolutely right.

I drank nothing about and I presumed I knew everything about the women facing this again unique challenge conveyor being to bear identity. I can't pretend to know what it is to not be ready to carry another human in my body for that period of time and then obligate myself to that human being and you know you said about the Bible being clear on all of I came to see that it actually wasn't.

And here's why it went to those commands of God in Scripture when he commanded his people to slaughter instance and I said no I do not hold on either. This is not the same God of the New Testament or there's something at work here that I don't understand which is in some instances their infant but total protection of human life and for example, you know, we say about killing for grapple in self-defense and we will morally justify that sometimes will morally justify capital punishment, killing someone at age 40 in a gas chamber or with an injection and we will morally justify how do we do that because we say and free single instance of death is not exactly the same right but alive in the mix right okay but again just to push back based on Scripture you know that the death penalty is because of the image of God and humanity. Genesis 96 that if someone murders that they forfeit their life, so his life for life. They have destroyed some and created an image of God. Therefore, they forfeit their life. So if was making an argument for death penalty is someone guilty of this crime. Therefore, they forfeit their life. In the case of judgment where God called Israel to wipe out the Canaanites. Yes, there were reasons for of divine judgment that was at no point did God ever give someone the right to simply terminate the life of someone else because of an inconvenience or problem so that that is so you're comparing apples with oranges. Yes apples unique oranges unique were comparing apples with oranges, but any rent rather than rather than get into a more lengthy theological debate. Here's here's what I'm still trying to trying to understand right and by the way, I've written articles before the overturning of Roe V Wade about let's try to see this through the eyes of of a woman that's cool, pro-choice, and I made the heartbreaking cases. You know, the 11-year-old that's that's raped by an uncle now finds out she's pretty and force the kids have a baby and not you know it raise the issues to try to say hey whenever we do we have to reach out with compassion and I devoted broadcast to this articles post overturning of Roe V Wade and say okay, how do we reach out while we celebrate the the lies that will be saved through this how to reach out to the women. This is been all they've ever known. This is three generations.

Now it's almost 50 years so people grown up with this. This is the reality there and fear what we do, how do we reach out so that that is due with a large part of of who we are but here's here's what I'm wondering about right and you start your answer.

The other couple minutes but we have plenty, near the side of the break. Okay when when you made the statement that this can be the greatest test moral test with a single pro-life movement and will they do now even more to help women, children, famous commuters around them. No, I'm actually funny to be the exact opposite first on the ground in the pregnancy crisis centers. Those doing outreach in front of abortion clinics on the grounds every ministry that I've been aware of and work with. They've always been holistic. They've they've been doing this for from the start. I'm just looking at a fact sheet from the Charlottesville Lozier Institute pregnancy center serving women saving lives at 2020 study and data from 2019 shows that pro-life pregnancy centers serve close to 2 million people with services and material assistance with a total value of over $266 million. Included in that 2525 locations offer material assistance such as baby items, etc., etc. of others are supplying various things for for ongoing life thereafter. One of the organizations that I work with and help support in Charlotte North Carolina now smooth role of North Carolina and other states of love life, love life is uniting immobilized the church to create a culture of love and life that will result in an end to abortion, and the orphan crisis and they work with families in a holistic way of her mother's before pregnancy after pregnancy and then as a throat. This last thing on throughout a lot but Brenda Swindell just testified on Capitol Hill in one of my colleagues was that this is movement. She said at this meeting yesterday in my home state of Idaho stand healthcare organized and led a symposium called supporting women in an abortion free Idaho political faith and community leaders, educators, and organizations came together in a nonpartisan way to find creative and life-affirming solutions as we unite to support women with unexpected pregnancies recited that other states are following Idaho's lease of this is happening in in a number of states and we are okay now were in this environment where states can be abortion free one really do serve the women when we can do to help those that will agree to to have their baby either in adoption or ongoing care for them.

So I am seeing the opposite unseeing that on the ground if people get involved politically but that hasn't been the emphasis the emphasis is been caring for women and babies and and and children even evangelicals actively involved disproportionately in adoption, many getting more involved in force ticket for secure sewer were trying holistically to do what we can and it seems from from from what I can tell that there is now a definite spike in church is saying and we been preaching this now we have to step forward even more. Now we have to say okay that you are important to us. The baby knew what was important to us and we want to help the long-term, holistic way. Okay, bless Leslie and tell you what I can come back in the other side of the break and turn it right over to you so you can speak in an uninterrupted way. In some everything I've seen over the years has been holistic life care what I'm seeing now is a spike in churches and organizations say we have to step forward and and really be pro-life and the most holistic with the opposite of what you predicted and then churches on the ground that's with, even though for for years helping their local communities. Okay recheck you get the pushback without interruption. On the inside of the great thank you to light a fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown got on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown is the author of costly grace and before the break length. I pushback on his tweet that pro-life movement will not do more in a holistic pro-life way in the aftermath of Roe V Wade said that's exactly what I've seen doing for years. In terms of being holistic and pro-life on the ground and I'm seeing an increase that state-by-state is this is happening that ribbon shank. I would hope that what I'm sharing with you is is good news.

But either you're going to differ with what I shared, or fine with the exception to the rule, so the floor is yours. Well thank you, thank you. Pushback Dr. Brown but I don't want to know no interest been pushing back on what you because frankly I know Brenda Swindell very well that in Idaho.

I know some of the other groups that you named Emmett you alluded to, and they are doing the most important pro-life work that can be done so they are to be nothing but applauded and supported in every possible way. If only it were close enough and this is why I say that because of very conservative annual estimate of abortion might be 850,000. It's probably a little bit more, but let's go with 850,000 if by rolling back row. We see let's say walking one third reduction that would be roughly 600,000. There are 3000 crisis pregnancy resource in the US. That would mean each of them has to take on 200 clients speech, if you count there the babies born to them, that's 400 clients each and not just client but possibly other children are in the mix of styles of partner. Other family members may be others in their community, all with their attendant date so if you list those needs as of course immediate maternal health care life for the electric furniture, transportation, childcare, job-training employment, Vermont early childhood ad for the child mental health care baby for gold. Maybe for other children to the partner for the spouse and all of that has to be within the local access to that facility or that center of help. CPC just can't now you mention churches theoretically in a fantastical scenario, there might be enough churches to take all of this on, but again you're talking about poor women in urban centers or in sparsely populated remote rural areas. Most churches with enough people enough volunteers enough money to take on something of this madness scale are exclusively in vehicle, accessible only Southwark I was an itinerant minister for 40+ year visiting churches all over the US. I think I stopped counting after 1001 in all 50 states and I can tell you the vast majority of those churches are not doing this and are not employees of this required and all of society, government response, but the overwhelming number of pro-life Christians are Republican and there's a problem because Republicans on the whole, overwhelmingly, are not only not for spending on the kind of social programs to support these women their babies their children, their families, their community, but the GOP normally works to reduce and eliminate those programs.

This is why they were employees fail this moral test, the relatively easy part was organizing politically to bring down row, but the human out and helping part of our far more demanding of us and they are unending and we did not prepare for that in any way, and the result will be. I think they had met our pro-life efforts will likely bring about much more suffering than was eliminate.

And that's my case I all clear, so let me give you my candid response to that.

So we we we care about life holistically and and that's important to God. That's important to you and to me so I we we embrace that value together as followers of Jesus. This is part of loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. But here's here's where I I really take exception to several things that you said first on the face of it, your tweet really differ with because the people that I know that a bit on the front was the pro-life movement.

They are doing more seeking to do more.

But here's here's here's why I differ not number one. The great majority of abortions are still purely elective. They are not absolute hardship cases and therefore in many instances that we don't need government help or subsidy or even the church to step forward. We need people to embrace having children more and say okay we we we can just use this is a form of birth control of matter having vasectomies at a higher rate. According to reports of red in the immediate aftermath of the overturning of Roe because abortion is not an option. So I this was a simple method of birth control for many so.

But let's put that in a in a separate category. Aside from the very real needs that are out there, but what I don't get is this is the same with pretty much every area of life we were trying to help, we can help every body which which you do what you can and and therefore you know so okay, let's keep killing babies in the womb because we can care for all of the no stop killing babies in the womb and overturn this unrighteous bad law, edict of role in the sight of God to make a statement in his psychosis favors.

What matters the most, and let's keep doing what we can. Creating a culture of life, encouraging people to to it to embrace children and and not to just look at them as a clump of cells. Let's try to get pro-life Democrats because I do not put my trust in the political system of largely vote Republican for years but unregistered independent as a matter of conscience before God. So I'm not looking to Republicans to change the world or Democrats, but let's get the Democrats to shift their view because they're so aggressively pro-abortion in their platform and their stance in action and then let's report what where whenever Jesse Jackson said you probably know this quote 1977. Politicians argue for abortion.

Largely because they do not want to spend the necessary money to feed, clothe and educate more people hear arguments for inconvenience and economic savings take precedence over arguments for human value in human life, psychiatrist, social workers and doctors often argue for abortion on the basis that the child will grow up mentally, emotionally scarred but who of us is complete. If incompleteness with a criterion for taking life will be dead if you can justify abortion on the basis of emotional incompleteness in your logical solution to killing for other forms of incomplete incompleteness, blindness, criticalness, old age, it's like you'd say hey we have a crisis in America will really don't care for the elderly properly so let's keep babies in the womb, so we have less people that will grow to be elderly and carefully unfair from the wicked pull this argument any direction which incompletely paralyzes us from doing anything it would be no different than the logic. If the mother killed the baby. One second after birth.

Your logic would be just the same hey, that's a more realistic and compassionate outcome then whatever else were facing so that's that's what's still not lining up. Amen to the need for the church to be the church in step four.

That's with the early church did that opposed abortion, infanticide the stepped up let us step up and let this not be a one party or she would both parties be pro-life but I am still I don't need to be up to see her but I'm still not getting the logic behind what would justify abortion are not sure Dr. Brown that it comes down to logic.

So much of our lives, but not governed by logic certainly are our passions, our love for one another is often illogical. To this day. You know I'm grateful where I married the woman that I'm still madly in love with. After 45 years, but we married at age 18 right out of high school.

It was absolutely illogical was preposterous and everyone advised against it but we loved each other, we were committed to each other remarry.

I wouldn't advise any young person to do it, but we did but it was wholly illogical and so much of what we do in life, individually, collectively, as it ranks with the human rights is illogical and in this I don't think we can always map what a person feels experiences or chooses to do in a logical progression. If that were the case, then even, for example, are trust in an invisible Savior who died on the cross would be utterly illogical and and and and preposterous, so I don't necessarily think logical equation here for me it's looking at the individual are unique experience or unique pain and circumstance, and I'd like to believe that I could be her and face those things in a better way than that she might face them, but that is illogical.

So remain with a question of empathy outfitting with the person and physically being a companion to them in their anguish and and here's where all all, respectfully objected and again you know I don't want to be little your position on this.

I may not like. Certainly don't think I have the last word on it.

I still very much exploring it, but here's here's something you know when you say 10 to help hold you thought BRCA1. Be sure you can get this out its welcome back precious and logical. I could've said morally consistent right so ribbon shank you get to continue this point. On the other side of the BRCA1 and make sure you get it out because we are at the end friends. I hope this conversation is a benefit to the shank's ideas, as this is exploring on his journey father bring each of us into the fullness of your heart how you look at those babies and give us your heart inside, outside, give us your little prayer shamefully the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown got on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Yes sir. Please continue with the point you want to make sure and thank you so much for your groundwater continue to admire your point.

I wanted make your will is your referent to the law and shooting down with terrible law and creating a culture that respects and affirms the sanctity of life. If there was a time when I thought that the solution to this crisis of abortion in our culture was the law that if we could change the law, it would go a long way to resolving the problem. I no longer think that, first of all I don't have much confidence in the legal system.

As I walked and when I did it was even after I was wrongfully convicted by a jury in a pro-life protest case where I was given nine months in a state penitentiary for all the driving for faltering.

The prosecutor don't hold all narrative fiction, the jury bought it I was found guilty. Thankfully that finding was vacated by an appellate court, but notwithstanding that I still had a very high respect for our legal system.

I now hold it in much greater doubt, but especially in this instance, I do not think that the solution to the Christ life in law enforcement in the court in certainly not with craven politicians who use it and use it constantly for their own political political advantage and not with the Supreme Court.

I spent 20 years coming and going from the chambers of the Supreme Court justices.

I know many of them personally. I prayed with them, talked with them. I I do not think they were the one to adjudicate stress as you suggest.

It is a supremely no pun intended, supremely moral question and that like is in Jewish law.

You and I both share that heritage in Jewish law.

The woman's perception of her pregnancy. Her experience in that moment ways Barry Barry heavily what we have done in this country. In the aftermath of the Dobbs position which reversed roving way is we've basically dismissed the woman's opinion entirely. We think it doesn't matter. What matters are we folks up here. We will tell you what your pregnancy experience. I can no longer support that position. It's far too far too intricate, far too complicated. Just as every human being is and I fear a kind of renewable pharisaical of legalism that will take over this question and to me that's very threatening not just to women in crisis sometimes in funds couple fear and agony, but to the whole of our gospel witness because the gospel is entirely contrary to legalism. It is neither logical nor is it legal. It's God in his infinite and unfathomable love for each of us uniquely and collectively. None of that can be captured in the legal structure of human legal structure. It will certainly my hope for culture of life in America is based 99% will vastly on the gospel changing hearts and minds and when my latest books, revival, or we die. That's, that's my posture.

As for the court when the court makes a decision, it does affect public opinion enroll as many liberal law scholars city Ruth Bader Ginsburg back in the day said that it went too far with that was bad law and at the time of the 14th amendment.

When that was without Witt was written up across America. Abortion was was illegal something.

This was this was just that the overwhelming norm, then so Roe V Wade was was bad. Casey was bad, there was there was no constitutional basis for but the states decide that's what was that let the people vote with the states decide what the views of women be heard and then be heard etc. so this is simply fixing some that was wrong and that really change public opinion look the Supreme Court's decision in 2015 with a Burger felt that in the White House, lighting up it in rainbow colors that affects public opinion that affects the way people look at things of this is to me is the court did what was right, fixing a bad law. Constitutionally, a and B it.

It's in God's sight something important and see does affect public opinion now goes back to the states with the states work this out with the people decide ultimately but again the legalism things goes goes both ways and I constantly examine myself for because no one thinks that they're guilty but we all point fingers at the other and say it. I found your tweet to be surprisingly harsh, judgmental, the exact opposite of the truth of what I know on the ground from everyone I work with because I'm not a political guy.

I'm in a common politics because I do it on radio and I write out their five beds week but I'm not politically oriented. II really am iconoclastic when it comes to that. In terms of is gonna be the gospel. My newest book coming out in September. You probably agree with a lot of the political seduction of the church and how millions of Americans have confused politics with the gospel, but if we just come back to this little you like.

Three. Four minutes. Let's say a woman.

It agonizes is under pressure and she ends up having the baby.

She does want to have this baby. She has the baby but the babies born. Rather, when there is all know the baby's terribly default doesn't have a barely functioning brain it's going it's going to live, maybe few months maybe a year, basically a vegetable. None of us would say it's right to collect a be at that point I hope you're included in that none of us pursuant if I so the whole thing still comes down to if that is in God's sight, a human life and innocent human life and I remember one woman called the show. She was a Christian who works at Planned Parenthood took the job as a single mother asked if it was justifiable because she was on the receptionist and I told her under no circumstances was a justifiable. She then began to break down and weep and said look I that they crosstrained they bring in the back they they shall be the products of conception of the cold POC Caesars weeping on the air and we work when we got help support for a sheet. She never went back in and wrote to me a year or two later, just thankful for her new life. These are human beings in the womb that remains a came in the Casey was Judaism. Forget liberal Judaism, Orthodox Judaism is as recognized that in the vast majority of circumstances abortion brother putting that aside, ultimately that still what it comes down to it was not a clump of cells that leafed in the womb of Elizabeth Elizabeth.

It was the baby full of the spirit that leafed in in the womb.

I can't get away from that and therefore must stand on the side of the unborn.

But while working in every way. Not so much the government through the church to have created a culture of life. So that's that's my appeal is your on a journey, continue on it and and ask yourself again about that the child within the womb and God's sight and what happens to that baby with its full DNA with its beating heart. Everything what happens to the baby because of abortion. There's is no nice way to paint that picture and I hope you would adopt a position that to me is morally consisted. That's that's my appeal. We've got a minute and 1/2 you get the last word.

Well, thank you for that occurred under. I find myself going back more and more to Jewish law, I think Jesus did and in in Jewish law. The woman is been first position the child and the woman expected position. There's there's no way to argue with differently. I hope we don't lose sight of the woman in this equation is at least equal Grafton first position and it does start to change more than a few thing. What I learned from Dietrich Bonhoeffer that Brady brilliant young, morally courageous church leader and not fear Germany gave his life and that struggles that when it comes to all these questions there are no universal rules that apply. There is only the question what is the will of God in this moment. And that's the question I want to ask. Thank you for allowing me to exercise in this conversation you've been very generous and kind as I know you will thank you for the kind words mean that from the heart and for your willingness to come on here with me and as as you left me a minute let me say, let me say this, the most moving calls. We really got in the history of the show or from all the women who have abortions. These women, many of whom were radically pro-choice feminist when they had their abortions and they talk to me about the agony that they live with the broker that we think there is 30 years ago I had four years ago. They break down, weeping and sobbing on the air talk about the pain that was caused in their lies when they thought was the right thing to do. We've had men call in that it pressured their girlfriends have an abortion when they were like 17 and 16th and they broken down, weeping, so there's a lot more cost to the women in them even realize a lot more harm being done to them. Let's factor everyone, let's factor in God's heart ribbon shank at thank you for the commerce.

Thank you for your graciousness. Thanks for being willing to come on in and I do want to lovingly challenge you to reconsider some of these things before the Lord and perhaps one day we can sit down and chat face-to-face in the December. Thank you sir coming on the air is timeless. Another program by the Truth Network

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