What Does Judaism Say About Abortion?

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But let's get the message out to as many as we can. So what about Judaism and abortion? So I'm a messianic Jew.

I'm not a traditional Jew. However, I do understand the sources. I've studied various things.

There's a lot that's accessible with some good sources on the internet. And when we say, what does Judaism teach about abortion? Well, it's like saying, what does Christianity teach about it? Which branch of Christianity? Historic Christianity through the centuries, Christianity in the 21st century, liberal versus conservative, etc. It's going to be the same with Judaism. But we want to emphasize what traditional Judaism has taught through the centuries, because that's been very consistent.

And then more recent branches of Judaism, which are more liberal and rejecting of many of the traditions and even rejecting biblical authority, those are going to be more in tune with the liberal parts of society. All right. So we're going to look at that in a moment. I was planning to do this today anyway, when I got an email from an old friend, and it was forwarding some tweets from someone that this friend of the family knew. And let's take a look at these and see if there's any truth to these.

These are sent out on Twitter or Instagram. So here's what the memes say. First one, the Talmud, the text which outlines Jewish law, states that a fetus is, quote, mere water for the first 40 days of pregnancy, and not a person until its first breath outside of the parents' womb. The idea that life begins at conception is a Christian idea, and Christians have every right to make decisions about their bodies based on their faith, but they do not have the right to make laws about what the rest of us do with our bodies.

All right. Then another tweet, Jewish law states that abortion is health care. Abortion is permitted, and when the life of the parent is in danger, abortion is required.

Saving the life of the parent is the highest priority. And then the question, where is our religious freedom? Do the Christians who fight for constitutional religious freedom actually support it for everyone or just for themselves? And then, last tweet, the philosophy that life begins at conception is a Christian one. Many other religions hold different views. A ban on abortion is a violation of our religious freedom. America is not a Christian nation.

All right. Let's start with some of the larger issues brought up there. This is not a matter of Christians imposing their religious views on the nation. We have laws like don't murder. Well, don't murder is one of the Ten Commandments. Is that Christians or Jews imposing their values on the society as a whole? In point of fact, a lot of American law was derived from the Bible or legal thinking based on the Bible.

The sources that were used were largely based on scripture, or many of them were philosophically based on scripture. So, when we have laws that the country has agreed on, we all agree you should have laws against kidnapping. Well, the Bible says don't kidnap, don't steal a person, right?

And the Bible says don't murder. Well, we have laws against that, but we don't have a law against idolatry, right? In other words, it's not a national law that you can't worship idols.

If you're a Hindu and you have statues in your home and they represent aspects of the deity too, you're free to worship them here in America. There's no law against it. But there is a law against murder. There is a law against kidnapping.

There is a law against stealing. And these things are either found in the Ten Commandments or in other biblical laws as well. So, what about separation of church and state? This is not an issue of separation of church and state. This is not an issue of the church taking over. This is an issue of moral law. And what is our basis for moral law? Well, there is various reasoning that goes behind it. There is that which is good for the sake of the society. And then there are questions when it comes to abortion, is there a constitutional right to abortion?

My latest article, you can read it on our website, askdrbrown.org, askdrbrown.org. My latest article says Roe has always been bad law. There are liberal legal scholars who admit Roe was bad law. There was no constitutional right to abortion. It was created really out of thin air, misusing the right to privacy, which when you read it in the Fourteenth Amendment, doesn't touch on abortion at all. And in point of fact, when the Fourteenth Amendment was drafted, what, in the 1800s, whenever that was, the exact date, then at that time, abortion was illegal in most of the states in America. By the time of Roe, it was illegal in what, 46 out of the 50 states, something like that. So, in other words, the framers and those that subsequently added the amendments, when they added the right to privacy, had nothing to do with abortion in their minds.

So, it was bad law waiting to be overturned. So, on a purely legal basis, forget for the moment what the Bible says, forget what the moment what religious groups say, but based plainly on the Constitution, there was no basis for abortion. Then the question of when life begins is a scientific question and a philosophical question.

The fact that there were religious beliefs tied in with it, that affects religious people. But you can be an atheist. Recent survey we talked about a couple days ago, recent survey done by a PhD student, University of Chicago, found that over 5,000 biologists who were surveyed, the vast majority who identified as either atheists or liberals or pro-choice, well over 90% said scientifically life begins at conception.

So, these are the related issues. And then fetal viability. At what point is the fetus, the baby in the womb, viable? This is not a matter of religious people imposing their beliefs on others. That's a myth and a misconception. So, what about Judaism, traditional Judaism? Let me give you the short version first and then the longer version and then we'll look at some different perspectives within different Jewish groups.

Here's the short version. It is true that Judaism does see a state when the baby is being formed, which is then up to the 40th day before it would be considered in that sense a baby. But you also have to remember that almost no abortions take place in terms of willing, intentional, someone trying to have an abortion within the first 40 days. The woman is just maybe finding out she's pregnant in the first 40 days.

We're not even talking six weeks in. So, if that's your starting point, then right there almost all abortions are eliminated. That's the first thing, just to point that out. Second thing is, yes, the baby until it's emerging from the womb does not have that full person status. And this is in Jewish law where you have various states of life and various statuses. Is that a word?

Statuses? In any case, in any case, the baby in the womb, because the viability questions and other things, doesn't have the full stature of personhood until it's on its way out of the womb and then breathing its first breath. However, unless it is explicitly to save the life of the mother, and the question could be to what extent does that tie in psychologically, you know, let's say the woman's having a complete nervous breakdown and now a pregnancy is throwing off the deep end, could that be saving the life of the mother? That would be more debate about that. But certainly, if there was a case where the woman continuing to carry the baby would kill her, all right, and there are plenty of doctors today who say, that almost never happens.

Today, that virtually never happened. And there are ways to separate the baby from the mother and give compassionate care to both. But let's just say there was a legitimate case where continuing the pregnancy would kill the mother, then Judaism says you must take priority to save the life of the mother. And you'd have plenty of pro-lifers who'd say, yes, that would be a valid reason for abortion, because we are pro-life and you have one definite life and one potential life in terms of it hasn't emerged from the womb yet, that you save the one life that is already fully established.

But that would be the extent of it. So let me take you to the khabah.org website. So this gives you a traditional Jewish perspective, all right, Judaism and abortion.

And it's making clear, hey, this is just giving an overview. These are not legal rulings that you base your life on. The question of abortion is perhaps one of the most sensitive and charged topics in the political sphere. As is often the case, Judaism's view is quite nuanced and does not necessarily fit squarely into either side of the debate. We will try to present a basic overview of the Jewish approach to abortion by presenting the main sources on the subject in both the Hebrew Bible as well as the oral Torah.

So this is Jewish tradition that Jews believe was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, passed down and developed through the generations until today, the oral Torah. The first reference to abortion is in Genesis when Noah and his descendants are forbidden to murder. So Genesis 9, 6, 1, who sheds the blood of man through man, shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God he made man.

The sages of the Talmud point out that the phrase one who sheds the blood of man through man is more accurately translated as one who sheds the blood of man within man. Based in this, Rabbi Ishmael learns that under ordinary circumstances, the killing of a fetus is considered a capital offense for all descendants of Noah, that is, humankind. Read in isolation, one can conclude that abortion is akin to murder, but things are not so simple.

Here's what we read in Exodus. Should men quarrel and have the pregnant woman and she miscarried, but there is no fatality, she shall surely be punished when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give restitution according to the judge's orders. Since the Torah obligates only a monetary compensation but no capital punishment, the Torah seemingly views the fetus as property, not as a human life.

There are various ways of reconciling these verses. All agree, however, that under ordinary circumstances, abortion is prohibited. And even that verse can be read differently, to say if she delivers prematurely and there's no fatality, then there's only a fine. But if there's a fatality, in other words, a miscarriage that has been caused, then it's life for life, etc.

Here's how the article ends. The Jewish approach to abortion in short. Under normal circumstances, it is forbidden to take the life of an unborn child, and it may be akin to murder, depending on the stage of pregnancy and birth. As long as the unborn remains a fetus, it does not have a status of personhood equal to its mother, and therefore may be sacrificed to save the life of the mother.

In any case where abortion may be necessary, it is of paramount importance to consult halakhic legal and medical experts as soon as possible. It's an overview from an ultra-orthodox Jewish website. We'll get into some other Jewish perspectives, and phone lines are open for your calls.

866-348-7884. Shalom. Shalom.

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This will give good representation of traditional views, but in a little bit wider perspective, looking at other aspects of Judaism as well. And the article there, Abortion and Judaism, says the Jewish position on abortion is nuanced, neither condoning it nor categorically prohibiting it. Now, you say, why are most American Jews in support of abortion? It's because most American Jews are not traditional. Just like many American Christians are Christian in name only, they don't really believe what the Bible says, they're not committed to Jesus, they do not live by the scripture. So, there are many Jews in America who, there are Jews ethnically and being Jewish is important to them ethnically, but they're not traditional, they don't look to the Bible as an authority, they do not accept Jewish tradition as binding, hence these different views.

So, let's scroll down a little. Is Judaism pro-choice or pro-life? While Judaism takes a far less stringent approach to abortion than do many pro-life denominations of Christianity, providing explicit exceptions for threats to a mother's life and rabbinic support for terminating a pregnancy and a host of other situations, there is nonetheless broad objection to abortion in cases without serious cause. In addition, despite the consensus that abortion is permitted where continuing the pregnancy poses a threat to the life of the mother, there is disagreement over just what constitutes a threat.

One more paragraph from here. Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person, deserving of protections equal those according to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the state of a full person only at birth, and sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority, Yevamot 69b, asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is called mere water. Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded the fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy depended fully on her for its life, a view that echoes the position that women should be free to make decisions concerning their own bodies. At the same time, feticide is prohibited by Jewish law.

There is disagreement over the exact source of this prohibition, etc. Moreover, Judaism teaches that the body is ultimately the property of God and is merely on loan to human beings. Multiple prohibitions in Jewish law, including prohibitions on suicide, getting tattoos and winning oneself, collectively serve to reject the idea that individuals enjoy an unfettered right to make choices regarding their own body. So, again, not as stringent as strongly pro-life evangelical and Catholic believers would be, nonetheless saying the clear case where abortion is justified, and in fact even required, would be to save the life of the mother. The question is how far does that go?

Is it psychological, emotional, as well as physical? But otherwise, to just say my body, my choice, no that doesn't work in Judaism, traditional Judaism, or to simply say hey it's just not going to work for us to have the baby, no that doesn't work either. So, although traditional Judaism would not fully agree with pro-life Christians, it would be much more in the camp of being against abortion than in the my body, my choice camp. Now, here's a liberal perspective published in Forward, Forward.com. Abortion access is a Jewish value, reaction to Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.

So, this is going to give the spectrum of different Jewish views. Jewish Council for Public Affairs said this, prohibiting abortion access is contrary to Jewish law, traditions and our principal value of saving a life, it enshrines specific religious imperatives in American law, Judaism compels us to stand for all life when we prioritize the life and health of a pregnant person. Again, to protect the life and health of a pregnant person, not to terminate the life of the baby for any reason. ADL, again this is going to be a liberal perspective. Since 1980, it's a matter of religious and personal liberty, ADL has supported the right of women to full access to, quote, reproductive care.

What a bogus term. Today's decision overturns 50 years of constitutional protection for an individual's right to determine whether to terminate a pregnancy or bear a child. And then, Agudat Israel, again from a more liberal perspective, Agudat Israel of America welcomes Supreme Court overruling Roe v. Wade, excuse me, I'm saying the opposite, orthodox perspective, forgive me, orthodox perspective. Agudat Israel of America welcomes Supreme Court overruling Roe v. Wade, we pray that today's ruling will inspire all Americans to appreciate the moral magnitude of the abortion issue and to embrace a culture that celebrates life. So in short, as you would expect, if you are a traditional Jew, then you oppose abortion on demand for any reason and you are glad to see Roe v. Wade overturned because it swung the door open to that. You would advocate, however, that under certain circumstances abortion is not only justified but required, all right. If you are a liberal Jew, same as a liberal Christian, you're going to say no, this is the woman's body, it's her autonomy and it's not a full human being or real human being until it emerges from the womb. Now, one last point here, one last point, as pro-life believers, regardless of your religious background, as pro-life believers, we do make a distinction between the baby in the womb and the child outside the womb, don't we?

What do I mean? Okay, if you knew that down the block there was somebody kidnapping children off the street, grabbing toddlers out of nurseries and butchering them and slaughtering them, you would do whatever you could. If the police couldn't get there, then you would get there with your friends and you would do whatever you could to physically stop that from happening, right? And you would be considered justified by the society if you were armed and this person is about to slaughter another toddler and you were able to take that person out, you warned them, drop the knife, get away from that baby, get away from that kid and they didn't do it, people would call you a hero for killing that person before they murdered more babies and children, right? If you go shoot an abortion doctor, we're going to say that's wrong, that you didn't have the right to do that. So, even with our absolute opposition to abortion, we do say it's the killing of an unborn child, it's the slaughtering of a baby in the womb, we'll always add those qualifying words, right? The slaughter of a baby in the womb, killing of an unborn child and even Justice Alito distinguished between this case, Roe v. Wade, which has to do with potential life, where the baby is alive in the womb, we believe conception, life begins at conception, absolutely, biblically and scientifically, we believe that. But we also understand that you can't guarantee viability, obviously, if you miscarry it three weeks, that's different than a one-month-old child dying. So, we understand those distinctions. Judaism takes them further legally because they have these different legal categories but we're not really that far apart from a traditional Jewish view except for the life beginning conception issue and then the debate as to when an abortion would be justified. One other thing I want to add in, having just given these little summaries and then we're going to go to the phone.

So, now's a great time to call because we'll get to your calls right after the next break. There's an article on Daily Wire by Amanda Prestigiacomo, Don't believe pro-abortion misinformation, what to know about ectopic pregnancy, miscarriage and more. Because people say, well, what about ectopic pregnancy and it's dangerous for the mother and so on. Well, it's not illegal. It's not illegal to terminate an ectopic pregnancy and it's not viable.

That is not viable. As she writes, in an ectopic pregnancy, a fertilized egg in plants and grows outside the uterus using one of the fallopian tubes, ectopic pregnancies are never viable and always put the mother's life at risk because the growing fetus converts the fallopian tube causing major internal bleeding. So, that pregnancy is not a viable pregnancy from the start. Miscarriages are not illegal. I mean, some are saying, well, if you're miscarried and you're like an abortion, what? And then, other medically necessary treatments that could result in unborns child's death will not be banned.

Pro-abortion activists and left-wing politicians were quick to spread ambiguous fear posts about abortion and healthcare. For example, some claim you'd be denied life-saving care if you have cancer because the treatment could kill your baby. There's not a single pro-life law that seeks to criminalize this because it's not abortion. Abortion is intensely taking the life of a child. It's another thing to treat a woman for cancer with chemotherapy may have a negative effect on the baby, but that's not the intent and the goal of it. And again, it's very, very rare today that a viable pregnancy really threatens the life of a mother.

In most cases, care can be given to both. Be right back. Dr. Michael Brown. It is Thirdly Jurist Thursday. Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. 866-348-7884. We go to the phones.

We start with Luke in Richmond, Virginia. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hey, how's it going? Doing very well.

Thank you. Hey, so I just wanted to share like a little bit of my personal experience and then I got a question for you. In my experience, really my wife's experience, but I'm going through it with her. We've had a lot of people be real mean and nasty to us for our opinions on abortion, on being pro-life. And we're not in trying to enter into debate, but people still seem to be kind of shoving down opinions on us.

And it's just kind of led to some interesting discussion among me and my wife and a lot of pain. One of those discussions is that, and the question I have for you is that, do you believe that the reason maybe people are looking even further into the Torah or into the Bible and trying to kind of pull out these verses, and I do totally agree that there are exceptions to abortion with, you know, we're the life of the mothers that stay. I think that's probably the one that's clearest for me, that's an exception. But do you think that people really are just trying to shirk the conviction of the commandment which says, thou shalt not kill.

Right, so here's the thing, I can't judge someone else's heart and why they do what they do, right? But I can say that historically there has been a debate about the interpretation of Exodus 21, when men quarrel and one strikes the other with stone or fist, and he does not die but has her to take to his bed if he then gets up and walks outdoors, so there's that, when a man strikes slave, male or female, and then verse 22, when we should have started, when men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman's husband may exact from him the payment to be based on the reckoning, but if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, burn for burn, one for woman, bruise for bruise. So based on that, then the miscarriage is considered something that you pay a fine for, but if something happens to the woman, then it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.

So that's the Jewish Publication Society version. If I read from, let's say the ESV here, for example, if I read from the ESV, when men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hears shall surely be fined as the woman's husband shall impose, etc., but if there is harm, then you pay life for it. In other words, you get in a fight, causes the woman to go into premature labor, she gives birth, but everybody's healthy, then there's just a fine, but if something happens to the baby, then it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth. So there's a dispute in Jewish law, in biblical interpretation, so that dispute's been here for a long time, before the modern feminist movement, before the modern pro-abortion movement, so when people debate that text, Luke, it is a genuine debate as to what the text says. Of course, there are other verses in the Bible that establish the personhood of the baby in the womb, and a clump of cells is not filled with the spirit from the womb, like John the Immerser was. A clump of cells does not leap for joy in the womb when the mother of Jesus comes in pregnant with Yeshua, and a clump of cells does not describe this in Psalm 139, meticulously formed by God, and when Rebekah's pregnant with Jacob and Esau, and God tells her, two nations in your room, it doesn't say two sets of cells, clumps of cells are there. So there are other verses that point to the personhood of the baby in the womb, but Luke, let me say this.

When you have people so hostile, so angry towards you, or friends that have been involved in the pro-life movement for decades and have been in front of abortion clinics for years, sharing the gospel and telling women compassionately there's another way, they are so hated on and reviled and people mocking them and cursing them and sometimes physically attacking them. You think, where does that anger come from? That tells you, the spirit that we're dealing with, there's something wrong there. Hey Luke, thank you for the call. 866-34-TRUTH. Hey, it's our friend Jonathan in Israel. Welcome back to the Line of Fire. Hello, hello, Dr. Brown. How are you doing, man?

Yonatan. Hey, did you ever hear from my friend that reached out to you? Well, honestly, yes. Okay. But I didn't really, I didn't really, I didn't really reply because it's still, how do I say this, a difficult subject for me. Oh, that's fine.

But talking to you is always, it's always a pleasure and an honor, and I have a question that, it might sound provocative, but it's not, okay? Yeah. So, what do you think about communism? Like about Stalin, Lenin, Marx? They were bad people, right? Yes, they were.

Yes, they were. So, and, but in the beginning, they might think that communism is a good idea, right? When this Marx, he presented himself as someone who wants to do good, right?

He wanted to take care of the working class, he wanted to make sure that people have life, and so on and so on, right? But we can judge hands and judge communism by the action of communists. We can say, okay, now we are what? A hundred years after communism, we can see what happened with Mao in China, we can see what happened with Stalin, we can see what happened in North Korea.

So, we can say, well, communism is bad, right? So, my question is, you define yourself as a Jew, believe in Jesus, right? And the last time that was that a Jew, at least a group of Jews, believed in Jesus was 2,000 years ago, right? Well, no, we've been here every century, we've had many thousands who believe. That's always been here. Oh, yeah, but the majority, the vast majority of people who believe in Jesus are not Jews, right?

Correct, yeah. And in the name of Jesus, we had inquisition, we had crusade, we had pogroms, we had even the Holocaust, to some extent, was based on Christian ideas, right? Because most of the people who fought, who committed the Holocaust was Christian. And they heard from the priests in the church that Jews are Christ killers, and they are cursed by God, and they went out of church and flooded Jews, yes, for 2,000 years. That was the meaning of, for Jews, yes, for me as an excavated Jew, when I was a kid, and we went to Jerusalem, yes, to the old city, and we were staying in church, and I was afraid that some Christian would come out and either kidnap me or kill me, because this is how I grew up. And again, throughout history, Christian, Jesus didn't mean good for Jews, because in the name of Jesus, millions and millions and millions of Jews were killed. So I get that Jesus didn't mean any of it, right? Because I read the New Testimony, and there was nothing there about killing Jews, and nothing there about any of that, but in reality, the Inquisition was in the name of Jesus, and the pogrom was in the name of Jesus, and they could say, was in the name of Jesus. So how can anybody say, no, I'm a Jew, I believe in Jesus, and I'm considered Jew, I'm not living in Judaism, and replace my religion.

No, I'm a Jew, I believe in Jesus. Yeah, great question. So I've got some good answers for you.

First question for you. When Chairman Mao in China carried out his murderous acts, maybe killed 60 million people, was he being consistent with his teachings in his Little Red Book? Was he implementing what he taught? In other words, this is the way we should live, and then they went and did it. Would you say that was the case?

I guess not. No, no, actually it was. In other words, when you read the principles of Chairman Mao, when you read fully what Marx and Lenin and Stalin advocated, they were living out their principles. Same thing with Hitler, right, and his Mein Kampf and all of that.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, all these, they lived out their principles, and that's why we got all this bloodshed. In contrast, as you just said, the only time these terrible things happen in the church is when Christians ignore the principles of Jesus, when they violate what's written in the New Testament, when they do the opposite of what he teaches. So it's just like Baruch Goldstein, ultra-orthodox Jew, goes into a mosque and starts slaughtering people and thinks he's doing it in the name of Judaism. Rabbis would say, no, no, no, that's not what we teach. That's not what we believe.

Okay, so that's first thing. Second thing, how long was Christianity here before there was a crusade, physical, violent attacks on Jewish people? How long was it here? Well, I guess 500, 200 years. A thousand years.

No, maybe more. Yeah, First Crusade begins in 1096, okay, and even then, that was a war. That was a war with Muslims, and Jews were in the middle of it. In other words, this was Christians fighting back against Islam that was conquering cities and killing people, so it was wrong, but it was a war against Muslims, and Jews were in the middle of it. And then Christians started turning against Jews. So the whole thing is, you got a thousand years of history before you have this happen, and since the Crusades ended, it hasn't happened again. You haven't had this, you know, marching around the world, taking territory with the cross and things like that, and the Inquisition was Christians basically killing Christians. The Inquisition was within the Catholic Church, and it was Christians killing other Christians. So it's horrific, it's crazy, and when you get to the Holocaust, remember, the only way to have this was to completely reject God and the Bible, and true Christians were persecuted by the Nazis as well. They may have used the words of Martin Luther, they may have used some of the rhetoric, and it's terrible, but the real Christians were the people like the righteous Gentiles, the ones, you know, you celebrate in Israel. Those were the real Christians, the ones who were saving the Jews from the Nazis.

So I want you to stick around for a second, sir, because in reality, Christianity spreading through the world has made the world a better place, and Christianity around the world to this day leads the way in education, in health care, hospitals, reaching out to the poor, disaster relief. So stay right there, sir. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on Thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

Remember, less than a half hour from now, we'll be back on YouTube, Ask Dr. Brown, the Ask Dr. Brown channel on YouTube during our weekly live Q&A chat. All right, back to Yonatan in Israel. So I want to say one more thing and then get your response to it. Where a real form of the Christian faith or the Messianic faith has spread around the world, it's done all kinds of good. It's raised education levels. So many of the hospitals that have been built around the world have been built by Christians, missionaries reaching out, so many educational institutions, maybe 80-90% of the first couple of hundred colleges and universities that were started in America were started for Christian education. Around the world today, there's tragedy, a tsunami, earthquake, something like that.

Christian relief organizations are at the front. It was Christians who abolished slavery in the United Kingdom and in Israel. And in the ancient world, like the ancient Greco-Roman world, a man could do what he wanted to do sexually, but the wife had to be pure. Then as Christianity spread, the man had to be pure also. It elevated women into a higher status as well. We have Christians coming to faith in the Islamic world. It elevates women to a higher state. And right now, Israel knows that the best friends it has in the world are evangelical Christians, and this has been for decades now. So, it's really seeing the faith where people practice what Jesus and the New Testament teach. It's beautiful and wonderful. When they deviate, it's terrible and ugly.

But you have to judge the tree by the fruit. So, okay, let's see what the overall impact on the world has been over the centuries, and that's actually very positive. The impact of the whole Bible around the world has been very, very positive. So, that's my answer to you, that the people living on the principles of Lenin, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, they committed atrocities by being true to those principles. The people who committed atrocities in Jesus' name were religious hypocrites who violated his principles. Those who live by his principles have done good all around the world. And I could take you to thousands, thousands and thousands of places all around the world where it's Christians leading the way and doing good, helping the poor, compassionate ministry, educating, helping with healthcare, and so on and so forth, because they love Jesus, therefore they love people. So, what do you think of that, sir?

Well, I gotta tell you that I am a little bit overwhelmed, but because I didn't think of it that way, but I'm not letting you go that easily, because let me just start with everything you say in New York. And something in the beginning, when Jesus was alive, and after he died, the Jews and the Poetians, which was really Judaism and Nazism, which were considered the same group by the Lutins, which were the elites who controlled the temple. So, I get what you're saying, but again, it was the years, yes, in Europe, not in Europe, in Russia and in Ukraine and Poland and Croatia, most of the people who were Christians were anti-Semitic and they were in church, they were teaching that Jews killed Jesus, and they teach that Jews are a disciple of the satan, and when those people came out of church, they come out and destructive Jews in the name of Jesus. And okay, so maybe there are not the majority of Christians, but again, I'm asking part of Christianity. So, let me ask you this.

No, no, let me ask you this. About communism, you're right, I'm agreeing with you, that most of the people who follow communism to the fullest are committed not to Washington, but what if, I can tell you, that in some way there is a perfect place, and then everybody is equal, and everybody has everything they need, and their father is the same book, the mild father. He was telling me, it's possible, right, because if somebody is reading a book, yes, and he's reading it in the right way, he might, he can only guess one direction. So, how can you, and yeah, most of American Christians are so good by reading the Bible, and they spread it so much good by the name of Jesus, but there's so many other Christians who read the same New Testimony, who follow the same Jesus, and they are anti-Semitic, and they say, no, no, no, you are reading the Bible wrong. Jesus are sinning men. The Jews are on the stand of Satan, and the Jews are cursed by God, and therefore they must be killed. And they are, they read the same Bible, and they read the same New Testimony.

Right, but here's the thing. You know for a fact that you can read the New Testament from beginning to end, and it never ever tells you to hate Jews, harm Jews, or kill Jews. And it says if you're, right, right, it's not there. So, it's not a matter of interpretation. It's not, it's simply not there. It's like saying, well, I learned Talmud, and according to Talmud, I should violate the Sabbath.

No, it's not there. If you violate the Sabbath, you're rejected in Talmud. So, if you harm Jews, or hate Jews, or kill Jews, you're rejecting the New Testament.

Now, the big question you're asking is why were so many Christians anti-Semitic? It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. I've written about it at length. I have a whole book that just talks about that.

It's a terrible thing. I don't deny it, but Paul warned about it. In the New Testament, in Romans, he warned the Gentile Christians. He said, don't become arrogant. In other words, don't think, well, we replaced the Jews.

So, we are the new Israel. He said, no, no, don't become arrogant. If you do, God will reject you. So, these Christians who were anti-Semites, God was rejecting them. He warned about this in the Bible. Paul said, my heart is so broken for my Jewish people.

I wish that I could be cut off and cursed. In other words, let God judge me so that they could be saved. And then he says that they may be our enemies in terms of they oppose the gospel, but they're still loved by God. These are the words of Paul. And then Jesus was, when you're persecuted, bless those who curse you and pray for those who persecute you.

So, that's always been the stance. And what's happened over the years is that misunderstanding came in. Look, you know the worst parts of the Talmud that seemed to say that Jesus was an idol worshiper and he's burning an excrement in hell. So, there were Christian teachers who saw this and thought, Jews curse Jesus every day. Jews say Jesus is burning in hell.

Jews curse Christians. So, these misunderstandings grew. But even so, sir, you mentioned the pogroms. When did those start happening? Like the 1800s, right?

So, even through all this. Yeah, I think the specific term pogrom is late 1800s. But in any case, the idea that Christians on a normal basis heard sermons in church and went out and tried to kill Jews, it's a horrible, terrible thing that had ever happened. But it's the exception to the rule.

That's the reality. It's the exception to the rule. And those who really follow the teachings of Jesus, that's what matters. So, if somebody rejects the teachings of Jesus and then goes out and does something in his name, well, they're the sinners. They're the hypocrites. Jesus is not at fault. If the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament themselves are destructive and bad, then we reject them. So, I encourage you to look at history a little differently, to recognize that there are two sides to this. There's all the good that Christianity brought to the world. And then, the bad ones, the bad apples, the ugly ones, what they did is terrible. It's inexcusable. But can I tell you something?

You want to tell me? When I've taught about this, I've taught Christians from dozens and dozens of nations in America and in other countries. When I talk about anti-Semitism in church history, they're shocked. They never heard of it. They never knew such a thing existed. They never saw it in their churches. They come to me weeping and saying, forgive us. We had no idea this ever happened. And, you know, for example, you go to India and meet Christians there, they've never heard of this.

What are you talking about? I've talked to Christians in other parts of Asia. And when I talk about this, or in Africa, like, what do you mean? Christians hating Jews. They've said to me, if you claim to be a Christian and you hate the Jews, you're not a Christian. And I said, well, this one said this, and Martin Luther said this, and Christastom said this. These former church leaders, they're shocked. They can't believe it. So, that's my answer.

Chew on it. Think about it, okay? And let me say this one last thing. The gentleman who reached out to you via email, you'll find him very safe to talk to. And he's Israeli. He knows a lot of former charadim, so he understands your life, your background, your culture, all right? So, reach out to him.

You were gracious enough to leave your email. You gave it to him only. Only him.

Nobody else on our team, our staff has it. Just him, as I promised you. And I know he reached out to you. So, write him back. I think you'll like him. But if not, call me again in a few weeks, all right?

Give this some thought. Call me again. And everybody listening and watching, let's pray for Yonatan to find out who the real Mashiach is, to encounter the truth about Yeshua, and then for God to give him the courage and the faith as a Jew to follow God and the Messiah. Hey, Yonatan, thank you for the call. Can I tell you, I'm honored from the heart. I'm honored that you listen to the show. I'm honored that you take the time to call. I'm honored that you're so honest with me and that you find me to be a worthy partner, a chaver, for our shakla and tari, our back and forth, our give and take. So, Yonatan, may the Lord richly bless you. Thank you again for calling our friends. We're out of time, but this is why we do what we do. Be sure to get my emails. AskDrBrown, askdrbrown.org. We've got so much we want to send your way. Don't miss one. We'll be back 15 minutes for a YouTube Q&A chat. Another program powered by the Truth Network.