Scientific Advances since Roe in 1973

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Our focus today, Row v. Wade.

Science, violence, a whole lot more. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire.

And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, we really are living in historic times right now in America, with the imminent expected overturning of Row and Casey. An event that many of my pro-life friends that have been on the front lines for almost 50 years have prayed and fasted for and longed for. The fact that that could be at hand. The fact that the tide is turning in certain ways. These are historic times.

They're also times of great upheaval. I wrote an article last night in terms of what to expect with the overturning of Row in terms of violence and attacks. The second half of the broadcast today, I'll be speaking with the leader of a pregnancy crisis center that was recently attacked by a pro-abortion group. How the church responds in the midst of this.

How the nation is impacted. These are big, big questions. Today, first though, we're going to focus on the issue of science and what actually goes on inside the womb. My guest is Dr. Tara Sander-Lee. She is the Senior Fellow and Director of Life Sciences at the Charler-Lozier Institute. She is a scientist with 20 years experience in academic and clinical medicine. Got her PhD in biochemistry from the Medical College of Wisconsin.

Did fellowship training at Harvard Medical School and Boston Children's Hospital. So, she knows of which she speaks. She has published peer-reviewed articles that are relevant and we're so glad to have her on the air. Dr. Lee, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me.

My joy, absolutely. Let's just start with the big issue. Why do we need to know about changes in science from Rho in 1973 until our day, 2022? You know, there have been so many changes since Rho. I mean, 50 years ago, science had already firmly established that a human life began at conception. And that was based on validated, objective science, you know, that had demonstrated from the moment of conception when the sperm fertilized the egg, that is the beginning of human life. But what we, you know, we're visual creatures, but what we didn't know at that time was really what was going on inside the womb. And that's what happened when ultrasound completely revolutionized what we knew about the unborn child, because now we could actually see the unborn child developing inside the womb.

And so that's why, you know, Rho is really outdated because in reality, science and medicine have had tremendous advances since 1973. You know, at the time of Rho at 1973, ultrasound technology was new, and it really displayed a baby only using grainy black and white dots. I mean, you could barely identify the head of the unborn child and their body parts. But now today we have this incredible clarity because we have these incredible advancements in ultrasound that now with 3D and 4D ultrasound, we can see the baby with absolute clarity. I mean, everybody's seen, you know, the ultrasound is on the refrigerator when they're expecting. And we can see a baby suck their thumb, their heart beat. You know, we can see all these behaviors that we could never see before.

And so ultrasound is just one of the really exciting examples. So just how much more we know about the unborn child now than we than we ever knew before and especially before Rho. What about the question of fetal viability then and now and how that played into the Rho thinking?

Yeah, that's a really good point. So, you know, we knew at the time of Rho, you know, what they knew about viability was that babies could survive if they were born extremely premature. They could be saved if they were born around 24 to 28 weeks gestation. But now, 50 years later, because of advancements in saving these extremely premature babies at early and early ages, viability is now a moving target.

It's fluid and it's become younger and younger. We are now saving babies at 21 to 22 weeks gestation. I mean, it's just it's amazing that just last year, actually, there was a little boy named Curtis who was born and he broke the Guinness World Record because he was born 132 days early. And he was recorded as the world's most premature infant to live to a first birthday.

And it's just it's incredible. I mean, when you think about just how far medicine has advanced and that and that these babies are just being saved at younger and younger ages. And so viability is a moving target and cannot be used to determine whether a child has worth and should be protected inside the womb or not. So let's just go back in time and take the science of today and the justices that voted in favor of Roe in 73 or Casey in 92.

And let's think for a moment. What argument would you make? Let's say you're brought as a witness to the court and now you've got these ultrasounds.

So so our technology today, we just transported back to 1973 into 1992. What kind of appeal would you make to them in terms of the illogic of their ruling? I think one of the biggest pieces of illogic reasoning that they had was that, you know, these that these that these weren't babies that that felt pain. I mean, I think pain is one of the biggest reasons that demonstrate that the all the undeniable humanity of the unborn child. And that these babies, you know, let me let me just go back to what what we knew before. And so, you know, people that often argue that abortion should be allowed at any point during pregnancy, up until the point of birth, they often state the work of a physician.

His name is Dr. Stuart Derbyshire. He was one of the world's leading neuroscientists who used to write that fetal pain was not possible before 24 weeks. And this is often cited. This was cited in the abortion industry's job, abortion industry's response brief. And for many years, he was considered the leading voice against the likelihood of fetal pain.

And he was on record rejecting that possibility. But then, you know, within the last year, in response to a growing body of scientific evidence, he changed his long held position and published a peer reviewed paper that concluded that pain is possible as as early as 12 weeks gestation. And so I think these are the types of facts that we didn't have at the time of Roe. These are the types of facts that we didn't know that these these babies felt pain at the same age that they are, you know, that they are saying they have a right to kill these babies. I mean, we know that advancements in fetal surgery have are now saving these babies inside the womb. You can surgeons can now go in and treat these patients just like any other patient and repair their birth defects before birth inside the womb.

And you know what? They use anesthesia because they know that these babies feel pain and these surgeries are happening as early as 15 weeks. And there is incredible how many advances have been made.

And, you know, the first field of surgery was in 1981. And so I think, you know, if I could go back, I would argue that what we knew at the time of Roe pales in comparison to what we know now about the undeniable humanity of these unborn children, that they are treated just like any other patient inside the womb. They feel pain and they just absolutely deserve a voice and to be protected at this time because Roe is outdated.

So many more advancements have have proven to us that Roe is outdated and needs to be thrown out and we need to catch up with the science that we know today, not what we knew 50 years ago. And obviously, we have to fight this battle for the lives of the unborn from every level, the emotional, the spiritual, the philosophical, the scientific, legal and do our best to present coherent arguments. You know, even just on the emotional level, I've written articles with titles like, oh, look at my fetus bump. It's a funny thing that it's a fetus when you don't want to keep it, but it's a baby otherwise.

Right. You know, the same stage of the pregnancy we're having. It's a baby. It's a baby. They talk to the baby.

The mother sings to the baby. It's, you know, it's six weeks older. The womb just found out she's pregnant. She's talking to her husband and naming the baby and all of this. And the first time, you know, the baby kicked and, oh, look, look at my baby bump. But you have to dehumanize it and use a technical scientific term.

It's a fetus if you don't want to keep it. So a lot of people get that and they see the inconsistency. But then you add in science on top of it. And it's really even more compelling argument plus the ultrasounds, et cetera.

In the in the larger scientific world, are you seeing any more progress? Because you have, say, the Planned Parenthood and these other groups, they make a lot of money. There's a vested interest. This is part of who they are.

There's a lot of emotion there. Science may not influence them at all. But in the larger scientific community, is abortion less popular?

Is there a stigma with it? Are people recognizing more or is it not trickle down? No, I think I mean, the thing is, we know that it's an absolute scientific fact that the unborn child is a human being from the moment of conception. I mean, we know and we know that biologists support this. I mean, there was actually a 2019 research study from the University of Chicago to quantify the number of biologists who confirm that life begins at fertilization. And they actually surveyed over 5000 biologists from over 1000 different institutions. And they had they surveyed people from all over the place.

Right. Actually, 89 percent of them claim to be liberal. Eighty five were pro-choice.

Sixty three were non-religious. Ninety two percent were Democrats and 96 percent of all of them that were surveyed affirmed that human life begins at fertilization. So there is no question about that.

Right. You know, the biology physicians, the scientists, they all know that life begins at conception. But I think what we're seeing is that the more science is showing that you can ask at the same. You know, we know that, like even to some of the statements that Speaker Pelosi has made, you know, science hasn't changed at all. But it's like, as I said earlier, doctors are now treating babies inside the womb before birth at the same gestational age that Speaker Pelosi proclaims a right to kill.

And so people, I think, are really beginning to see the dichotomy. It's like, wait, you know, when I saw this, you know, I've done over 20 years of research and clinical medicine and a lot of it was focused on congenital heart disease. And so I saw the lengths that physicians would go to to save these babies and to get and the measures that they would go through to get their hearts to work. Right.

Right. If they were born with a congenital defect. And then you you see then the flippant nature that so many of these abortion industries show is just like, well, we're just going to stop the heartbeat whenever that mother doesn't want the baby. So I think people are beginning to see the more that we understand true ultrasound, true fetal surgery.

I mean, let me just give you an example. I mean, the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, every year they have what's called a fetal family reunion to celebrate the advancements that they have made in saving all these babies inside the womb. OK, well, they're the very first fetal family reunion they had was in 1997. And if you can go you go onto their website and you can see the history and you see a picture from 1997, there's just like a handful of babies and their and their families, you know, and they're all just in the hallway of Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Fast forward that to just a couple of weeks ago in June, where they're celebrated their 26 fetal family reunion. They are no longer in the hallway of the hospital.

They now needed an entire zoo. So they can see this picture because there are thousands of people that came to this because they have celebrated over 2000 births that have occurred because of fetal surgery. So people are staying, you know, they're not ignorant. I tell you what, stay right here. Just got a couple more questions for you. I'm speaking with Dr. Tara Sander-Lee for this is important, eye opening, encouraging information, life giving, I would say. We'll be right back.

Thanks, friends, for joining us. I'm speaking today with Dr. Tara Sander-Lee of the Charlotte Losier Institute and looking at a headline from 2019 study, 95% of biologists say life begins at conception. The gentleman that conducted this survey, Steven Jacobs, this was part of earning his Ph.D. at the University of Chicago. And we can add in that the vast majority of biologists are actually atheists, oddly enough. So this was not exactly a Bible belt, Bible thumping survey here.

Fascinating to see this. Dr. Lee, when we speak of life beginning, I'm going to ask a ridiculously layman science question. But what do we mean by that? I mean, we always debate when life begins, but how does science define life? What actually happens? Yeah, that's actually a great question.

You know, let's go right back to the beginning. So we know that at the moment that the sperm and the egg fuse, that a human life is created. How do we know that? Well, because the human gametes, the sperm and the egg each contain half the number of chromosomes or DNA needed to be a human being. A part separated, they cannot be a human being.

But when you combine them, when they fuse and the two become one, that union of the male and the female DNA during fertilization restores the number of chromosomes, the amount of DNA needed to complete a human being. And that human being has unchangeable DNA for that individual's entire life. That individual is absolutely unique. There is nobody else in the whole world that will have that DNA. You know, DNA is going to be basically the blueprint of life.

It will be that blueprint for the person's entire life. What kind of eyes, hair color, it is what helps to direct the self-development of that human being inside the womb. And you know, going back to Scripture, it's just remarkable how when we look back at what King David wrote in Psalm 139, what the Holy Spirit revealed to King David when he wrote how we are fearfully and wonderfully made inside our mothers, how we are woven together. You know, science actually confirmed and validated those truths centuries later when the structure of DNA was determined. They determined that that DNA is two ribbons of genetic material that are actually woven together. So it's just, it's remarkable that, yes, it is absolutely clear from the moment of fertilization, conception, when that sperm fertilized in the egg, that is the beginning of human life, a brand new human life. I mean, even twins. We even know now, we can genetically analyze twins and look at the differences in DNA. We even know that there are very subtle differences even between identical twins inside the womb.

So everyone that is created by God in His image is absolutely unique and a human being from the very moment of fertilization. It's just, it's mind-boggling. And obviously, the more we learn, the more mind-boggling it'll get, the more astounding. I personally believe that the more science learns, the harder it will be to reject God's creation.

People may still reject God, but it'd be hard to deny these realities. Just DNA itself is such a strong argument. Okay, just quickly, when the baby is a month old, what's going on? In what way is that not just a clump of cells? Yeah, no, so we know just four weeks after conception, so that's going to be actually the six-week gestation. So I know there's different ways to determine the age of a baby. It's going to be the four weeks post-conception or the six-week gestation. What we know at that time is that the heart is the key milestone that week because it is the first organ that's going to form and function. So just within that six weeks, the heart is already pumping blood and oxygen through the newly developed human, and that first heartbeat starts. And by the end of that week, the heart is actually beating rhythmically at 100 beats per minute. And so it's just remarkable that within that fourth week already, we see that the heart is beating, it's beating rhythmically.

And, you know, it's unbelievable because we know that the science shows that you don't have to look far. You can, multiple textbooks and peer-reviewed articles confirm that the heartbeat begins. But then you have liberal media outlets like the New York Times that is writing an article and they take 1800 words in an attempt to try to convince readers that a baby's developing organ, which pumps blood, isn't actually a heart. So it's just it's amazing how you have so many people right now, you know, it was a heart, not that, you know, it was a beating heart. But now you have so many, you know, so many people rising up just because they want to be able to justify their actions and their ideology to allow abortion at any time during pregnancy, even up until the point of birth. And in order to do that, they need to convince themselves and others that, oh, it's not really a human being, that's not really a human heart that's beating, that baby doesn't really feel pain.

I mean, even Justice Sotomayor, when they were, you know, during the dog oral argument, she called anybody that believed that the baby felt pain, that we were French scientists, despite all of the peer-reviewed literature that suggests otherwise. So it's just, yes, there's an incredible amount that's happening within the fourth week. And, you know, by the eighth week after fertilization, the baby already has 90 percent of the body structures. So the baby already has 4000 body structures.

And as adults, we have 4500. So we know that by just that eighth week after conception, the baby already has all their arms and legs, fingers and toes. It's just, it's remarkable. And I think that's just the reality, the true science about what is going on inside the womb. We really need to educate so that people understand that it is unquestionable, just that these unborn babies are human beings from the moment of conception and they're remarkable human beings in how we are developing inside the womb.

So early on, there's so much that's already in place. And, you know, everything that you said confirms that old adage that abortion stops a beating heart because almost no one is having an abortion before this time period when the heart starts beating because they're barely finding out that they're pregnant. So they may have abortions not long after that, but there's the beating heart that is stopped. Well, may God continue to open hearts and minds and then sensitize people as well to the humanity of the child in the womb. And it's so important with God willing the overturning of Roe that the church can really make a good argument to the society because obviously many will be angry and those that stand for life will be demonized.

So as we just keep coming with grace, with patience, with science, with truth, hopefully God will change more and more hearts. Hey, is there a website in particular that you'd like people to go to where they have questions, they can find information that will help them? Yes, I highly encourage people to go to one of our newest websites called the voyage of life dot com, voyage of life dot com. And this is a project that we spent nearly two years in the making, compiling all the various latest science and facts about the fetal development and the unborn child. I mean, everything that we've talked about here about when does the human human being become a human life.

Right. And that's the very first part of fertilization. And then all the way to when is the heartbeat?

What you know, when do they feel pain? So if you go to this website, you're going to get all those facts. You're also going to see incredible videos. You're going to see actual footage of babies, real babies inside the womb. You're going to get exciting facts that you never maybe thought about. You know, the fact that by 10 weeks after fertilization, the baby has already started forming fingerprints.

I mean, just the fact that by by 13 weeks after conception, which is 15 weeks gestation, but not only is the baby sucking his or her thumb, but she already has a preference whether she's going to be left handed or right handed. So you're going to find all these incredible facts on the website. And as you said, you know, this is really for a time such as this. It's so important that we educate ourselves, that we educate others of the you know, just the humanity of these unborn babies and just how fascinating, remarkable they are.

You know, they they have inherent value, dignity and worth every single one of them. And so, yeah, I encourage you to go to that website. You're going to find everything you need to know to educate yourself and others. And I just want there as you were speaking, voyage of life dot com. Let me say this in many of the articles I write where I want to link to things I've been looking for this very website. I mean, everything that I am looking for, I can see is here, not just beautifully present it, but then dig deeper in depth.

And yes, some important info on Down syndrome babies, which we didn't talk about at all. Well, may the Lord continue to use your efforts and may the humanity of the child in the womb be something that our society learns to embrace. Thanks so much. Really appreciate everything you're doing. Thanks so much for having me. Have a great day.

All right. That was Dr. Tara Sander Lee, the website voyage of life dot com. That's with the Loser Institute voyage of life dot com. May we as a society embrace the humanity of the baby in the womb.

We come back. I want to speak with the leader of a pregnancy crisis center that came under attack. Oh, this is not the only one. My latest article that asked Dr. Brown dot org talks about what's coming. And we've been talking about this for weeks. I think it's self-evident to be candid. I don't think there's any mystery in terms of what's coming and the anger that's out there. But let's let's talk firsthand. What what is a pregnancy crisis center do and what has happened to this particular pregnancy crisis center? Those that are watching will put some pictures up for you to see as well. Stay here and we'll be right back on the other side of the break. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I tweeted this out yesterday. The overturning of Roe v. Wade is revealing the real spirit behind abortion. It's murderous, violent, angry and full of venom and hate. The attacks on churches and pro-life clinics are par for the course. Abortion has become a pseudo religious right. R.I.T.E.

It was never a moral right. R.I.G.H.T. They wrote an article last night, which we posted today as well.

And I tweeted this. You don't need to be a rocket scientist or a prophet to know that in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade, it's going to get very ugly on the streets of America. Watch for the witches, literally, and for the radical, violent feminists and more. I'm joined now by Jim Harden and Jim is the director of a pregnancy crisis center in Buffalo that was firebombed by perhaps the most vocal domestic terrorist group right now.

Jane's Revenge. Jim, welcome to the line of fire. Thanks for joining us today. It's an honor to be with you. It really is. We have seen, in fact, the face of abortion, the true face of abortion, as you described it.

All right. Before we get to that, tell me about your work in Buffalo. What happens at a pregnancy crisis center? Yeah, well, Compass Care is a pro-life medical pregnancy center. We've got 650 centers across the country that are using our materials and strategies. And we also have owned locations in New York State, which is the abortion capital of the U.S. More abortions per capita in New York State than anywhere else in the country.

And they're projecting to have more. So what we do is we get we provide women with ethical medical care and comprehensive community support in order to give her a vision of her future after having had a child. You know, there's no shortage of abortion, but there is a shortage of compassionate care, ethical medical care. And and and just, you know, what a woman needs in crisis. And they just they they attack that woman when they attacked us. They didn't just attack Compass Care's office. They attacked women and her ability to receive care in her time of crisis.

All right. So a woman comes to you willingly. There could be parents bringing your daughter or something like that. But otherwise, a woman comes to you willingly and she comes there. Maybe she's confused. She thinks she can get an abortion either way. She's come there willingly. And now you're going to love that woman and say, hey, there are alternatives to abortion. That's that's the evil, terrible, horrible thing you're doing, right? You're telling her, hey, let us let us give you some ideas to have the baby and ways that we can help and support, maybe tell you more about the baby in your womb so you can really understand your decision. All you're doing is helping her make an informed decision and perhaps providing resources and longer term help if she goes ahead with keeping the baby. Is that correct?

That's exactly right. When a woman faces an unplanned pregnancy, she says, I'm stuck. I'm trapped. I've got no other choice.

I need to have an abortion. That doesn't sound like choice to me. It doesn't sound like empowerment to me. Doesn't sound like right to me. It sounds like she needs help. And that's exactly what we do, because you just described it.

We get we erase the need for abortion by transforming her fear of the future, unknown future into confidence by giving her all the support and security that she needs in order to see a way clear to saying no to abortion, because she doesn't have the power to say no to abortion. So let's just think for a moment. How long have you been doing this, Jim?

This is my twenty first year. All right. And you have colleagues doing similar work all across the country. How often do you and your colleagues meet with a woman a year or five or ten later who says, I'm so upset that I had the baby, I wish I had aborted it versus the reverse of the thousands and thousands of women that our network serves every year? Not one. Yep. Not one.

Not one. I mean, that is such a compelling reality. And I assumed that would be your answer. Whereas I've had people call my show for years. If abortion comes up, women, sometimes men as well. But the mothers, they'll say, look, I was totally pro abortion. I was into this. I didn't believe in God.

This and that. I had my abortion and I agonized over for years. I every year when it would have been the baby's birthday, you know, projected birthday, you know, I felt pain. I questioned what I did, whereas those that made the decision to choose life, the exact opposite. OK, so you're not you're not you're not there protesting in front of an abortion clinic. And people could say, well, you're intimidating the women, the folks I know that do it do a great job. But let's just say I can understand they're upset with you. It's hard enough to go in there.

Now they have to deal with the preacher on the corner. OK, fine. You're not there in the courts fighting the battle and trying to take away a woman's right to abortion, a nonexistent right in God's sight. But you're not doing any of that that could get more animus towards you. You're helping women make an informed choice and empowering them to not give way to fear.

And the thousands and thousands that you've helped are grateful for it. Why does that make you the enemy? I think I know why it makes us the enemy. I think I know why. And I think it's because when when Roe was reversed, the the abortion empire's business model will change overnight instantaneously.

The snap of some fingers. It's similar to the government saying to the Ford Motor Company, you can no longer have dealerships in 30 states tomorrow. I mean, it would it would totally destroy their business model. And that's exactly what's happening. It would they're forced to have to go to a hub and spoke business model where women will have to travel from conservative states to the more liberal states like New York to get their abortions or go online and receive dangerous chemical abortions in the mail, unsupervised by doctors with a four percent chance increased risk of whatever over surgical. It's much more dangerous and much very dangerous to the abortion industry.

They're they're facing an existential threat to their business model and they're afraid. And that's why they're engaging in violence. I believe that with my heart.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense, Jim. And I believe there's also a spiritual component. There's this real battle. Look, we all know that there are women that agonize over the choice to have an abortion and they decide to do it.

And was it the right decision? You know, we're not saying they're murderers are full of bloodlust. You know, a 14 year old girl was raped and all that. But there are plenty of others. This is just a convenience. There's plenty that are motivated by greed.

Excuse me. And I do believe on some level, those that are given to it, there is bloodlust. I mean, you can't shed this much innocent blood without something very wrong coming into the culture. So, Jim, as as we speak, for those that are watching on Facebook and YouTube, our teams is going to put up some of the pictures of what happened. But since most will be listening by radio or podcast, please describe what happened. We've got the pictures that will be running. You paint a vivid picture for us.

Yes. So on June 7th, early in the morning, we received a call and the police and fire rescue responded to smoke emanating from our facility. And when they arrived, they found that the windows were all broken and fires were lit. And on the side of the facility was scrawled the signature graffiti of Jane's Revenge, the pro-abortion terrorist organization.

And it said Jane was here. The facility sustained catastrophic damage throughout fire damage and smoke damage. It's going to take we're going to have to we're going to have to totally reach, you know, basically redo the facility. And we were out of commission for several months.

Let's take hundreds of thousands of dollars to repair. But we didn't stop. Jane's Revenge wanted us to stop doing what we do. Their motto is that if abortion isn't safe, then neither are you. They even up their threat against us. My family had to relocate due to the threats of intimidation. But we're not going to stop and pray the very next day.

The very next day we were up and running in an alternate location, undisclosed for security reasons. But it's too important. We believe that every single human life is made in the image of God and serving a blessing and protection from the womb to the tomb without partiality. And that's what was attacked. We were attacked for what we believe. And God, there's only two things that are sacred in this world, God and people.

And that's that's what pregnancy centers are all about, protecting all people. And we believe even in the value of those that destroyed our facility, where we Jane's Revenge and people that are associated with them, we believe in their value as well. And we're asking them to come out of the darkness, out of the pro-abortion Kristallnacht, and come into the light of Christ, into the shadow of the cross with us. Because all sins are going to have to be paid for. Every single sin will have to be paid for.

And either Christ will pay for it and you hide behind the cross, behind Him, or you have to pay for it yourself for eternity. And so we're beseeching Jane's Revenge and those associates to come back out of the darkness and receive forgiveness and true fellowship with God and with man. You know, I believe, Jim, that we're going to hear testimonies of some of these very people in the days and years ahead, that the loving response of Christians is going to be so contrary to the anger and pain. And look, we know that many times the outward anger is the masking of an inner pain. And who knows that some of these women are even dealing with guilt? I mean, they'll mock me for saying it. But who knows what drives things ultimately?

And you know what's interesting? If you think of the pro-life movement, so we genuinely believe that human lives are being taken in the womb. If anything should provoke a violent reaction, it would be us just burning all the clinics down and shooting all the doctors. And yet you've had a few tragic incidences, you know, the killing of George Tiller and others that are, excuse me, the exact opposite of being pro-life when you take a life.

We know we've had these aberrations, but you're talking almost 50 years now. And the march to the March for Life every year in D.C. is marked by dignity and respect. And the vast, vast, vast majority of those doing pro-life work, they are pro-life people and they demonstrate a different spirit. Whereas here you are trying to save women, save babies, show them love and violence and anger are being shown towards you. And the threats, as you said, and I documented in my article, are being upped.

Friends, pray for Jim Harden and his family and co-workers that God's protection and grace would be there because they're not backing down. And I've seen a list now between clinics, churches. I mean, it's dozens that are being attacked. And for the most part, people just looking the other way.

So that will change. What can we do to help in prayer or in any other way with this critical life work that you're doing? Well, there's so much people can do. They can sign a petition asking their political leaders to denounce the violence and and provide equal protection. You know, the pro-life prison centers are not being protected by the attorneys general of the various states. There's not there's no investigations going on. There's zero reports coming out from local, state or federal law enforcement.

There have been no arrests. They're refusing. You know, people like Governor Hochul in New York or Joe Biden are refusing to criminalize these these attacks. They're refusing to denounce violence specifically against pro-life people, emboldening the the these people, Jane's revenge. You know, call call your senator, call your call your governor, call your attorney general. They're they need to be doing something proactively. They need to be enforcing the law equally. Just because people don't necessarily don't necessarily agree with the political elites in our ideology doesn't mean that they shouldn't be protected.

This is something that people need to be praying about and reaching out to their political leaders about going. You go to erasingtheneed.com. This is our website. Stay right there, Jim. You can hang around a couple more minutes. We'll get you back on the other side of the break just to finish this.

And I've got one or two more questions for you. Thank you for being with us, friends. Pray for those leading pregnancy crisis centers. They're coming under increasing attack. This is when we stand together and let's do what we can pray and do.

All right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866 three for truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends. I'm speaking with Jim Harden of Compass Care in Buffalo, recently attacked, firebombed by Jane's Revenge. So, Jim, right before the break, you were sharing a website folks can go to. Please do that again.

Yes, people can go to erasingtheneed.com to learn more, erasingtheneed.com. All right. Great. So, Jim, what's the what's the feeling among your colleagues standing in a place that that many hoped for, prayed for for years, but that seems so impossible?

The overturning of Roe and Casey. What's the feeling in the atmosphere? You know, there's a general feeling of anticipation and excitement. I think as people begin to near the reality, it's dawning on a lot of presenters that we're we're we're exposed.

We're at risk. There's a lot of people are nervous for, you know, the violence. We're hoping that some arrests are made ahead of the reversal of Roe when the decision comes out.

Dobbs versus Jackson. And that will quell the violence. And Jim, when just to go back to where we started, because many still don't know what really happens in a pregnancy crisis center.

Let's just run through this quickly again so people understand what happens inside these places. So when it comes in, she's 21, she's single. She and her boyfriend are using protection. She's in college and about to embark on a major career and the pregnancy in her mind is going to destroy everything. But she she doesn't know what to do. She's got some questions. And that's why she's there instead of at the Planned Parenthood clinic. You sit it down. What happens?

Yeah. So she she comes in the door and she engages a receptionist. She's in the reception room, very state of the art facility, high quality.

And she feels welcomed. And she states she's there no more than three minutes when a nurse comes in her nurse that's assigned to her and brings her to the exam room. Does a health questionnaire, figures out exactly where she is, and then does an ultrasound scan. And the ultrasound scan helps her understand if she's got a viable pregnant and exactly how far along she is, if she's got a viable pregnancy. You know, there's at least 25 percent of pregnancies are not viable, meaning they're not there's no there's no decision to be made about abortion. Strangely enough, that's good news for a woman who's facing on time pregnancy and not sure what she's going to do.

So we can do the ultrasound scan. We can determine how far along she is, how far along a woman is. It's very important in the decision making process because it would determine the type of abortion she would be eligible to receive, which impacts costs and side effects, et cetera.

She doesn't know that. So this is important information for her. We also provide STD testing and treatment. If she tests positive for one of the most common STDs like chlamydia and does not get treatment before an abortion, she increases her risk of pelvic inflammatory disease by 25 percent within the first four weeks after the procedure. And that causes internal scarring, future ectopic pregnancies.

You know, it's nasty stuff. She values for reproductive health. She just is not wanting to be pregnant right now or not in this way or whatever.

So and then beyond that, we provide all sorts of community support. We address every single concern in her life relative to having this day we're carrying this child with term from not just throughout the pregnancy, but beyond. We give her the connection with all any and all support that she needs in order to have this baby and parent this child or place the child for adoption. If that's the choice that she makes, we give her all the options. True choice is waiting for her at a pro life pregnancy center. And when she walks out that door, is she alone or there are ways that I mean, physically she walks out alone. But when she walks out, does she know, OK, I can come back here or if I'm going to give the baby up for adoption or if I'm going to have the baby?

Is there ongoing support, ongoing support? She has a direct, direct line to the nursing team from that moment on. No matter what she no matter where she goes and what she does. And not only that, but she's got a list of people, mother care teams at churches, adoption agencies, material assistance.

I mean, you name it. There isn't anything that we can't connect her with. That's that's the power of the church at work.

It is amazing to see. And Jim, have you seen that someone comes in, she thinks abortion is the right choice, but she's got these questions. Then when she finds out there are alternatives, does relief come to her? Because we're told that's the nightmare.

That's the terrible thing. You're going to make the woman have their baby. And obviously, if society does not come along and help someone with an unwanted pregnancy, it's going to be all the worse. But do you actually see in front of your eyes a sense of relief or kind of a recognition that that's my baby? Often, yes.

The relief comes immediately. You know what abortion is? Abortion is not choice. Abortion is abandonment. Abortion is a society that says we don't want anything to do with her.

You just, you know, it's isolation. She's alone and she still is alone and she has to pay for it. These abortionists are mercenaries. They're only interested in profiteering off the crisis of a woman. And when we give her the support and security that she needs so comprehensively, so caring, relief comes over her.

She's overwhelmed oftentimes, and oftentimes, walking out that door, she decides to have her baby. And that's what it's all about. And it takes a lot of work. We do it all for free.

Yeah, which led to my next question. Where in the world do you get the money to pay for your staff, your rent, equipment, everything? The generosity of the people of God. That's 99.9% of the resources come from the Church and the people of God in the Church. And you know what this is also saying, Jim, that, God willing, with the announcement of the overturning of Roe, so suddenly you have state by state, one survey put a 26 versus 24, 26 will have pro-life laws. And then hopefully those laws can get better and better. And then the others go to more extremes like Virginia did, Maryland did, New York did, California did. Just it's kind of exposing what's what. But it's going to mean a need for even more pregnancy crisis centers in these other states and the need for the Church to be the Church. That's going to have to happen.

Oh, exactly right. The abortion battle lines are shifting dramatically. And we need to build the pro-life pregnancy center infrastructure in these abortion hub states, as well as online through telehealth, which is one of the reasons one of the things that we're doing actually is providing the 21st century tools, these 650 pregnant centers for the first time since Roe versus Wade. The pro-life pregnant center movement has the ability to compete with the abortion industry. We now have the potential of reaching and serving nine hundred thousand women a year before they travel and before they go online for their chemical abortion.

It's a very exciting time to be alive. Yeah. And of course, the response of the darkness. And as you said, you reach out to those with Jane's Revenge, you pray for them and the others that are engaged in acts of domestic terrorism. That's exactly what it is.

But that's when you see that level of anger, hostility, unbridled venom with promises of violence. You know where that's coming from and you know, that's a sign that massive, wonderful breakthroughs in here. Jim, may the Lord reward you, your family, your co-workers in your clinic and around the country. May he reward you with much, much life and blessing. Thanks for all you do. Thank you. It's an honor to be with you. It really is. All right.

Thank you, Jim. My friends, important to hear this, important to stand with these centers in your in your local areas. Many more would be open if churches were aware of the need, because I believe many churches would help sponsor these. So let us build a culture of life from inside the womb to outside the womb.

Let's build a culture of life. The abortion industry has decimated America. I look at abortion as such a clear satanic attack on the next generation and certain people groups in particular where the higher percentages of abortion. I look at the enemies really wanted to take them out.

They wanted to attack them specially. I'm not, Blammo, you have more abortion. No, quite the contrary.

I'm saying I look at it as the enemy targeting groups and seeking to take them out. But it's not just that. It's the effect on the mothers and in some cases the fathers. It's the spiritual and unseen effect that comes down even more, trickles down into the society. Some of the older Mother Teresa quotes really, really got on that point in terms of what happens when abortion becomes the norm. So the change is coming.

The Supreme Court decision is massive, but the church must be the church. In other words, this is now the beginning of the new battle. This is the beginning of the next major upheaval. Also, take a moment, go to my website, askdrbrown.org, askdrbrown.org. You do want to read this article.

Trust me on this. It's going to get very ugly in the aftermath of Roe. It'll be jarring. It will talk about some of the very things that were just confirmed moments ago by Jim Harden. It will be eye opening. It will remind us ultimately that we are in a spiritual battle. So go to askdrbrown.org. Take a moment and read that.

It's going to get very ugly in the aftermath of Roe. I just spoke with a pastor a few minutes ago, right before the show, and he was thanking me for our video resources, especially our shorter ones, three minutes, six minutes, 10, 15, 20 minutes, that he's now made a library of resources for all of his church leaders, all of his small group leaders. He said, Dr. Brown, you are now training and equipping all of our leaders, whether it's a transgender question, a question about a Bible question, women in ministry, or he said, you're answering the questions.

You're laying it out. You're doing it in a way that is so helpful for our people. So, friends, we are here to resource the body.

Pastors, leaders, you can't study everything or be expert in everything. So where God's called us to dig in, let us be a resource for you. Take advantage of what's there at the website.

We're about to launch a brand new, massively, wonderfully updated version of the website, God willing, in the weeks ahead. So get familiar with us. AskDrBrown.org. If you don't get our emails, you want to get them. You'll be informed, equipped, strengthened. We're here to infuse you with faith, truth and courage. Go to AskDrBrown.org. Click to sign up for the emails and you'll be blessed. Trust me, you'll be blessed. Another program powered by the Truth Network.