A Candid Conversation with Pastor Greg Locke

The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network. Welcome to our broadcast today, Michael Brown.

So glad to be with each and every one of you. We're going to have a very important, candid conversation today about some very, very controversial and difficult subjects. We're going to do it with openness and honesty and the fear of the Lord.

If you'd like to call in only on the topics that we addressed today, here's the number to call 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Pastor Greg Locke is well known in the nation. He's got a massive online following. I would dare say he's one of the most controversial preachers in America, whether you take that as positive or negative, that's a simple fact. And he is the founding and lead pastor of Global Vision Bible Church in Mount Juliet, Tennessee, just outside of Nashville. I called him out on some comments that I took real exception to a couple weeks back, invited him to come on the show.

He immediately replied on social media and said, of course I'll come on the show, but you should have contacted me privately instead. And here we are to have an honest, candid conversation. So Pastor Locke, thanks so much for joining us on the broadcast today.

Thank you, my friend. All right. Yeah, we've never met before, so we've just interacted via text thus far. I don't believe we've ever met, correct? No, sir. We've been in a few of the same meetings, but we've never met personally. Okay. I wasn't even aware of that.

All right. So first, for those who know you better for your political comments or comments maybe about COVID or things like that, just so our listening audience can understand you a little bit better, who is Jesus to you? Well, he's certainly my Lord and Savior. My father was in prison for a number of years when I was growing up, and so I was actually sent to a children's home. And I was in an orphanage for about four years, from 16 to 19.

And I was on probation five times, arrested six times, and my life was just an absolute mess. And I came to Christ April the 17th of 92 in a revival meeting with an evangelist by the name of David Benoit. And since then, you know, the Lord just changed my life radically, gave me a beautiful church, a beautiful family. And although, you know, we're known for a lot of maybe political jargon and things like that, at the heart of everything, it's the gospel. You know, Jesus is not a way to heaven. He's the only way to heaven. And so he's very much not only my Lord and Savior, but the gospel is the main driving force behind everything that we do here at Global Vision. All right, and what are the main emphases of your church, your local church? Yeah, our three pillars are like expository preaching and radical compassion and extravagant generosity. We're very much known for giving and just, we probably give about 80% of all of our income in-house and online away to others. We love missions.

And so when we say Global Vision, we really have a global vision of a great commission to see people saved and churches planted and people blessed all over the world. Got it. All right. Again, I think many folks are not familiar with that aspect of your church work, of your church ministry. But by the way, are we in a direct connection or are we on speaker, just because we're getting some feedback in our connection here?

Just want to make sure. Direct connection is kind of broken up a little bit, but I could hear myself talking back and forth for some reason. Okay, we'll have our guys try to work that out during the break. I apologize for that, but hopefully everyone can hear you loudly and clearly. Okay, I began seeing clips from you, Pastor, during the 2020 election and then after the elections, where you very plainly said—and by the way, for those listening, I've told Pastor Locke in advance that I'm going to raise these questions and then get to the real heart of the matter, the comments that I took to be very irresponsible and potentially provoking to violence, which Pastor Locke wants to clarify. So in any case, I began to hear these clips where you guaranteed that Joe Biden would not be inaugurated, that he would not sit in the White House for a single day. You didn't just say Trump would win, but that Biden would not be inaugurated. And here's just one clip as an example.

Let's just play this. Secondarily, you have to understand that 73 million of us Americans that voted for Trump are not going to stand for fraudulency. Listen, Joe Biden is not going to be inaugurated as the president of the United States, and I'm tired of these Christians bailing on Trump and Pence. Okay, so a question for you, sir. It's one thing if you're convinced, which I know you are, that the election was stolen and that Biden is not a legitimate president, but you plainly said quite repeatedly that Joe Biden would not be inaugurated.

Obviously, he was inaugurated and he is the one sitting in the White House. What do you say to that? Yeah, absolutely.

And you'll notice even in that clip that I said something about Pence because I am convinced that if Pence would have done his job that Joe Biden would not be sitting in the Oval Office at this particular point. But let me just say this. I was very careful to never use the phrase I'm prophesying. You know, God told me this, thus saith the Lord. It was very much my strong opinion. And so I tell folks, do I believe that the election was rigged and stolen?

Absolutely. But if my ball team, you know, wins the championship and yet the opposing coach breaks into my house and steals the trophy, that doesn't minimize the fact that we still won the championship. And so I get it that people take issue with the fact that I was very forceful on the fact that Joe Biden would never sit at the Oval Office. And so, you know, I can't change that fact. But I was also very careful not to make sure that I wasn't putting that on the burden of the Lord and like I was some kind of prophetic individual.

And many people did make those predictions and those prophecies. But that was my very strong opinion. OK, so just to clarify, then again, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you do have a larger Internet audience. Would you agree with that? Oh, absolutely.

Yes, sir. Oh, OK. And people look to you as a man of God. Shouldn't there be more responsibility if we guarantee something as a man of God, if we're going to say, OK, I got that wrong. I apologize.

I got that wrong. Isn't that the very least that we should do? Well, I mean, there's been plenty of statements since then that I've made. However, I'm very careful about what I do and don't apologize. I mean, if I'm wrong, obviously I have to, you know, repent and be humble. But the simple fact that Trump won by a landslide is indispensable at this moment. And so I'm careful about saying, oh, I'm going to apologize because I was, you know, demonstratively forceful about the fact that I believe that he was really going to win and remain president.

Now, had I said God told me and this is the facts, well, then obviously I believe I would have to have some massive public pretensions. OK, so that's where I kind of see on that. Right. By the way, you said that the idea Trump won by a landslide is indefensible. I think you meant indisputable from your perspective, correct? Yes. Yes. Got it. OK, just the fact that the that it was stolen.

I think we can very much prove that. But yeah, I get what you're saying. Yes, sir. OK, no, just wanted to make sure that you said accurately what you want to say. OK, so again, I'm giving you opportunity to speak plainly. I'm going to be as candid as I can be, but I'm not here to debate or argue just to ask you candid questions and allow you to speak candidly.

All right. I have written plainly that I don't understand how you could look Jesus in the eye and vote for Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden because of their pro-abortion stance. I have urged people, if you can't vote for Donald Trump, then don't vote for Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton because of abortion issues. I have called out Democrats as the party of abortion and on and on, written about that. You said things in a little different manner. So I want to play this clip and then ask you a follow up question. So again, this is Pastor Locke.

This is about two weeks ago. Go ahead. I'm to the place right now, if you vote Democrat, I don't even want you around this church. You can get out. You can get out you demon. You can get out you baby butchering election thief. You cannot be a Christian and vote Democrat in this nation. I don't care how mad that makes you. You get pissed off as you want to. You cannot be a Christian and vote Democrat in this nation. They are God denying demons that butcher babies and hate this nation.

They hate this nation. Get mad all you want to. I don't care if you stand.

I don't care if you throw tomatoes, praise God. I'm about to throw a microphone up in his house. CNN can eat my dirty socks. You cannot be a Democrat and a Christian.

You cannot. Somebody say Amen. The rest of you, get out. Get out. Get out in the name of Jesus.

I ain't playing your stupid games. All right, so here's my question, sir. I've interacted with black Christians that I know to be God-fearing people. They hate abortion. They hate homosexual practice.

They stand against these things. In their view, their vote doesn't change those things. But when they vote for a Democrat, he works with them in the education system.

They work in the court system. When they vote Republican, they feel that they get no hearing. They have no influence. So they've said, hey, we agree with you on these points, but we don't think we're going to change that via voting. But our vote does make a difference in other ways.

That's why we vote Democrat. First, do you regret the way you said anything? That's number one. And number two, what do you say to people who are God-fearing and do vote Democrat?

Well, there's a couple of things. I think people need to realize that as a pastor, I have a responsibility to the church. You know, people think I'm throwing sinners out of the church. The gospel is for sinners, and I'm not going to say that. The gospel is for sinners.

The local church is for the body of Christ. We're called as shepherds to feed the sheep, not, as it were, slob the hogs, if you will, as the old-timers would say. And so people need to understand that church discipline is something that was very well practiced in the New Testament. And so what I said may have been very fiery and forceful. I mean, I really have had a gut full of it. And so people need to recognize the context of our church.

We have CNN show up almost on a monthly basis, The Washington Post, The New York Times, you know, all the major, you know, fake news outlets, if you will. And so there comes the point where, you know, demonstratively and publicly, I'm like, look, I'm going to take a stand because these people need to just stop because we're not going to roll over. We're not going to get under a rock. I'm not going to go silent at this particular point. So sometimes I can come off very half cocked or as some people would characterize me as a jerk for Jesus, as it were, but I have a church to protect. And so people need to understand the context of who I'm asking to walk out. It's not that I'm saying every single person that even in some, you know, smaller primary or in some school board district or for mayor is voting Democrat is a lowdown sorry individual. I think nationally across the board, there's no way you can line up Democrat policies with the word of God. However, to be fair in the same message, I also called out Republicans and I said, look, they're two heads of the same snake as far as I'm concerned. And although I find myself voting more and more Republican to this day, I'm an equal opportunist, you know, when I get fired up in the pulpit because I've called out Trump on a number of occasions about the vaccine and things. And so I very equally call out the evil in both parties. And so I kind of hope that answers it, but we need to understand the context of our church. We're very much always either being in the news or being taken out of context by the boost. And so when the media is there, I use that opportunity to be very forceful and say, look, these are not games that I feel like a Christian can play. You know, if Paul is going to throw a known fornicator out of church, if Jesus is going to tell, you know, the church in Ephesus that, you know, you don't put up with false apostles and ungodliness, I tell you what, I got to jump in.

We got a break. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us today on the line of fire. Michael Brown with my guest, Pastor Greg Locke, having a candid conversation about some very recent controversial comments that were made by Pastor Locke. Let me just pursue something about the political parties for a moment. You made a statement speaking at a pro-life rally in DC that our problem is not in the White House, it's in God's house. Maybe not those exact words, but very close to that. It would seem to me when you are constantly speaking about Joe Biden as a fake president, etc., and making these clear denunciations about Democrats, I know you said Republicans as well, that it would seem that your emphasis is on the White House versus God's house. So maybe you could explain that comment more fully, where you believe the real problems in America lie today.

Oh, yes sir. And let me just say, I think to be fair, people need to understand, a lot of them hear my rant, so they'll hear like a three or four minute snippet or maybe the little clip that you played. That's really like the first time I even brought up politics in months and months in our church. But I had had a gut full of some things, and we've been all over CNN, and I mean, we've had, you know, people just hounding us constantly for interviews about, you know, my political stance and going to Mar-a-Lago and all of that. And so I think to be fair, I really do preach verse by verse, line by line, phrase by phrase, you know, it took two and a half years to preach the book of Ephesians. And I mean, if somebody took the last even two years during a lot of the COVID debacle and took all my sermons, I don't think they would be able to see if they took every single political reference and every single gospel and biblical reference. There's no way that I even preach politics five percent of all of that time.

That's just the only thing that gets airplay. And so I need to be careful about that because I really do preach a lot about Jesus and I get it. I have become known politically in a lot of ways. And I've even told our church even before this most recent rant, you know, that's got me on the show today. And that is, you know, God really did use a lot of controversy and a lot of political involvement to build our platform.

But he didn't build our platform for political involvement. And so I really started getting out of a lot of that. And it was more for our deliverance ministry and healing and things that we've been going through here at our church. And we've been in just an absolute, you know, massive revival for two solid years. And we're in a tent, no less, I mean, an actual tent that seats, you know, 3000 people. And, you know, people don't hear of, you know, we've baptized 4000 converts in two years.

I mean, it's been beautiful just to watch what the Lord has done in our midst and even in my transition denominationally. And so everybody hears politics, politics, politics. But at the end of the day, we don't have a White House problem. We have a God's House problem because we have so many pastors that aren't willing to actually preach the truth.

And I do think we have to have political involvement. I mean, John the Baptist got his head cut off for various reasons. You know, Jesus, you know, he called out the king, as it were, corrupt, and said, you tell that fox that I'm going to cast out devils today, and I'm going to do it tomorrow. And the next day I'll be perfected. And so they didn't kill Jesus because of what he did.

Never a man's fake like this man's fake. They killed Jesus because of what he said. And I think far too often, pastors are so, can I use the phrase, woke, that they just, they don't want to walk into the controversial areas. And so I think what I have become in some ways to a lot of people is somebody that is saying what they kind of wish their pastor would say, if that makes sense. But I do think, to be fair, it's very little of what I actually talk about. It's the only parts that just get any play because the news media picked them up.

Got it. All right, so let me respond, push back, raise a question there. I'm involved in controversy 24-7. I get credible death threats, can't go to one particular country because of statements I've made about radical Islam. When I speak at college campuses, if they can get me on, we have to have police protection.

I don't ever think it's needed, but they insist I can't come on the campus every day. I mean, right to minutes ago, I get blasted as a homophobe, transphobe. Virtually every week, without fail, I'm addressing controversial issues. I'm taking a stand on uncomfortable things and constantly hearing from people, Dr. Brown, you say what I want to say. That's why I'm introduced as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. And yet, when I push back against the failed Trump prophecies, all the thus saith the Lord's that did not come to pass, when I push back against that, when I push back against QAnon conspiracies, or frankly, when I push back against your words, which we'll play and you'll clarify, okay? But when I push back, now I'm, now I'm sissified. Now I'm a coward. And I don't mind.

I mean, it comes with the turf. I get lied about, attacked day and night. You know, that's not an issue to me. But what I find to be an issue is, it seems if you do not join the gospel with a militant partisan political spirit and an angry tone of voice, you're going to be considered weak or woke. And that really concerns me because it's blending a hyper patriotism with the gospel as if it's one of the same. And it's almost like if I don't preach with a rifle by my side that I'm not a real Jesus lover.

I mean, so something's very wrong these days. And that's what deeply concerns me. And that's why I spoke out about these things.

So that's the concern I have. And again, to me, that's got nothing to do with the gospel. I'll die for Jesus. Again, that's, I'm a Jewish follower of Jesus. Since I got saved 50 years ago, all I've known is controversy, always, you know?

And people I've laid hands on and sent out to preach at least at least a half dozen, I've been martyred. So I understand these things. But to me, there's this really unhealthy blurring of things in America. And if you don't have a certain style and anger, like I said, almost an angry partisan political spirit, you're not bold. That concerns me. Oh, absolutely. And I certainly agree with you and understand that. I think the reason that me and you and, gratefully, are having this conversation is because I think a lot of people were shocked that you and I really are in a lot of the same circles.

And normally, you know, what I get is from, you know, CNN or even Fox or, you know, the atheist and stuff like that. And so I think it kind of shocked people. And I know why you did it now.

I did it then. But I think it shocked people that two men that really do have a lot in common, all of a sudden seem to go after each other in the body of Christ. And I think it kind of shocked a lot of people. And so it kind of put a little bit of blood in the water because here's a little caveat, because you don't know this, Dr. Brown, but I'm going to share it with you on the show because, you know, I'm grateful to be on the program.

But here's a little thing you don't know. The reason I kind of came out hot at the beginning and I was like, my goodness, because I mean, I mean, my phone was blowing up. Dr. Brown calls you out and all these people, you know, political people, Christian people and social media influencers. And so they were all going crazy. So I went and I read it.

Of course, I made my comment. But here's what you don't know. You were probably one of the top three most influential people to get me out of cessationism when I was really transferring and transforming, you know, through the power of the gospel, our whole ministry. I mean, I came out of a very strict, militant, independent, fundamental, King James only, you know, type of a Baptist background for many years as an evangelist. And your books and videos helped me understand. And so with you not even knowing it, you were like a spiritual father to me and you really discipled me out of some stuff. And so all of a sudden, when you came out hot, I'm like, you got to be kidding me. And so it kind of did shock me and it kind of hurt my feelings a little bit.

And so I'm like, what in the world has happened to this guy? But I look back now and I see why you came out that way. But you have to understand from my vantage point, you had helped me in my journey in the ministry.

And then all of a sudden, one of these guys that I looked to kind of blew my face off and I felt like you kind of like sided with the enemy. Does that make sense? Got it. Yeah. Well, of course, I was 1000% unaware of the context or background. Absolutely.

Totally unaware of that. And I appreciate you sharing that publicly. And that's, that's the very gracious of you to do that. And it's humble of you to even give the background in terms of how you responded, why you did so to give context then to this next part of our discussion.

And really, really the heart of the matter. The reason well, first, I didn't know, different people that we did have as mutual friends, I was unaware of that. So it wasn't just a matter of pick up the phone and call you. But still, I could have made an effort to reach out to you first.

The reason I didn't was because of the comments, which to me, crossed a line with a potential call for violence. And in the day in which we live, that was aligned too far. So I'm going to set things up. And then we'll play the quote. And then you can respond.

If you take a minute, you take 10 minutes, that's up to you. But here's, here's what I wrote. And this is what you got hit with.

All right, this is what you heard from folks. And by the way, on my own Facebook page, you got tons more support than I did. Because once your followers found out that we were in dispute, there was a massive wave of support for you. Your comment to me got over 3000 positive responses, by the way. My article got like 1000 and a half. So your comment got many.

Just to let you know, folks, we're backing you. Okay, so here's what I wrote. I mentioned who you are, according to your website. Then I said, in a recent message, he has crossed a very dangerous line.

Every God-fearing Christian should denounce his inflammatory rhetoric, rhetoric which could easily lead to bloodshed. Then I go through other parts of the article, other parts of what you said. Then I give the direct quote that we're about to play for everyone.

And we'll do it when we come on the other side of the break, so there's no interruption there. And I wrote this. In the plainest of terms, I denounced these words, calling them out for what they are, absolute unadulterated garbage. These words are dangerous. These words are despicable.

And these words could lead to bloodshed. So we come back, sir, on the other side of the break. I'm going to play the clip, and then you just respond candidly. Like I said, you take a minute, you take 10 minutes. That's up to you. You've graciously agreed to come on the air, and we're having our candid conversation here. But as I communicated to you privately as well, many of your followers said, I'm misunderstanding you.

That's not what you meant. But others said, yes, yes. The Founding Fathers would be proud of Pastor Locke, not a coward like Dr. Brown.

So in other words, many did hear it as an incitement to potential violence, just like our Founding Fathers took up arms against the British government. All right, we come back. We'll play the clip and, Pastor Locke, we'll get to speak plainly and candidly right here.

Thanks. I'm speaking with Pastor Greg Locke, and I want to play now the clip that prompted me to write an article calling him out over these comments. He immediately said they were misunderstood, and he'd come on the air to clarify. So let me play the clip and then turn things over to Pastor Locke. All right, so Pastor Locke, please explain.

Fluidity of that message. My whole point of saying about the insurrection was, because I've been on Nancy Pelosi's top 10 or top 40 list because I was there that day. I was 15 feet from Donald Trump at the Ellipse and all of that, and I have been leading rallies at Freedom Plaza. So here's what I was saying. I was saying, look, they need to stop calling this an insurrection because they have no idea what an insurrection is. First of all, it was a very peaceful protest. Yes, some people broke the law.

There's no doubt. I'd decry the fact of anybody that went in unlawfully defaced any property. I've decried that from day one, from the moment that it happened. But if Americans wanted an insurrection, we would have had one a very, very long time ago.

I call it the theology of redneckness, right? I mean, nobody's taken up arms against the government, and we're certainly not calling for that. So I was trying to make the analogy, stop calling it something that it's not because they're trying to make it something bigger than what it really is.

Because if the American people really wanted to, they could do that. And so that's the analogy that I was trying to draw. And I was saying, look, the local church, because even right after that statement, if it continued to play, I simply said, so what am I calling for? Because I knew people were going to be upset about this. I said, what am I calling for? And I said, I'm calling for two things.

I'm calling for churches to quit being wimpy, and I'm calling for pastors to stand up and actually preach the truth of the gospel and the power of the word of God. Because again, I'm not looking for anybody to take up arms. I get how and why some people take it that way, but it's usually the crowd that doesn't already understand the context of who I am and the things that I have said in the past, and the things that I've had to defend myself over through the media. And that's why so many other people took it a different way. Whether you're taking them out of context, that's not really what he meant, because it's not.

Because I don't believe we're going to get guns, go to the White House and take it by force. That's why I shifted the theological mindset when I said, okay, we're the local church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I know there's some theological argumentation and conjecture on what that means, take it by force. But I'm talking about kingdom-mindedness.

The church has to stand up, and we have a responsibility to take this culture back from the gospel. We have to quit getting bullied into a corner and being so PC and politically correct. And so let me just say, what I said was not an incitement to violence, but it was a statement of fact, because they can't keep pushing. And I'm convinced that the left wants that to happen.

I'm convinced the left wants a civil war to break out. Do I want that? Absolutely not.

Do I propagate that? Absolutely 1000% not. But the statement of fact is, they're going to have to quit doing this to simple, you know, God-fearing American, freedom-loving patriots, because it's going to create violence in the streets. We don't want it, but it's a factual statement that they are pushing the American people to that point. And so I was simply making an analogy, but at the end of the day, our fight is in the heavenlies.

The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God. Do I believe in the Second Amendment? 1000%.

Do I believe it protects the other ones? Absolutely. Am I telling people, get your Bible, get your guns, let's go to Washington? Absolutely not.

Not at all. Because we are not going to win the war that way. We are going to win the war when the revival comes to the local church and pastors quit being cowards and they stand up and they bring this nation back to Jesus. And so I know that's kind of a long way around the barn. You can ask any questions because I'm open because I was clear when I said, this is what I'm calling for.

Churches, quit being wimpy, quit closing down because of the common cold, quit believing all this media-infused nonsense, and please, pastors, stand up and preach the truth of the Bible. Got it. No, that wasn't a long way around the barn at all. That was clear and much of what you just said. I've never focused much on Second Amendment, just my own background, etc. So that's never been a focus of mine either way. I'm certainly not calling for the government to take our guns, obviously. I appreciate the Second Amendment, but that's just never been something. I have enough hills to die on.

I don't need to add that in. But in any case, yeah, everything you said, that's been my heart. My message, book came out October revival or we die. I've said for decades, the problem is not the presence of darkness in America, it's the absence of light. And the problem starts with us. You know, I've said that over and over again, endlessly, endlessly, endlessly. That's one of my biggest things about people's already got to take up arms. Like, we don't even pray.

What are you talking about? We're not even sharing the Gospel with our neighbors. We're not even living holy. Many of us don't even vote. So I mean, the problem is with us. Francis Schaeffer once said that there needs to be a sign in front of every abortion clinic open with permission of the local church.

Because if we simply got involved in pro-life work, just in a holistic way, things would change overnight. So it seems that we're in harmony on many of those points. My concern, and even in the context of your message, you did just kind of say, hey, I haven't talked about politics for months. I think you're teaching on the Lord's Prayer, and just went off. So I know I have an audience through radio, internet, articles, books, whatever, and I try to weigh every word. And I think I'm also a debater in terms of wanting to speak with absolute clarity every way that I can. I'm going to be misrepresented.

I'm going to be misquoted. We understand that. But as much as lies in me, because I've called for revolution has been one of my major themes for over 20 years, I always, always qualify so there's no possible misunderstanding of what I'm saying. Do you feel in that moment, especially saying the violent take it by force, and now knowing that many of your followers are saying yes, yes, amen, and that's what the Founding Fathers did, do you feel you could have said that in a clearer way?

Yeah, I think in a more understandable, yeah, in a more decisive way, perhaps. And matter of fact, the next week, I actually, during the offerings, said, look, let me set the record straight here. After everything kind of blew up, I'm like, look, I'm not apologizing for the sentiment of what I said.

But I just want to clarify what I did not mean in that particular statement. So, certainly as a communicator, I mean, I communicate nearly every day of my life. And so, yeah, sometimes you say things that inadvertently kind of pop out, especially when you're super demonstrative, and you got protesters all over the place, and things are happening. We have such a strange context in our church because of the social media visibility, that yeah, I very much understand that sometimes I can come off maybe a little bit too hot. And when I come off too hot, it's not that I don't mean what I say, it's that sometimes I can say it in a mean way. And it's taken gloriously out of context by the haters, and then naturally people that love the gospel, such as yourself, be like, wow, this is a little bit half-cocked. And so, yeah, so the next week, I made an absolute clarification that this is not at all what I'm calling for.

And I've done that the entirety of the time since, you know, since January 6th. I let people know, look, these people were wrong for what they did, I was there, it wasn't an insurrection, I'm not calling for one, but let's call this thing what it was. And so, hopefully that can lay to rest and dispel some of the ideology behind what I wasn't saying.

Got it, got it. So, I think a big issue is we can be bold, courageous, forthright, uncompromising, unashamed, without being mean-spirited. And that's where we bring reproach to the gospel and stir up people in the flesh. And that's been a concern I've had. And what I've seen is if you don't do it like that, to some people, you're not being bold. So, I appreciate you making that distinction.

Let me ask this, then. I'm going to play a clip for you from the day before January 6th. So, this was the Stop the Steal rally. Reference was made repeatedly to militias, to the Black World Regiment, to the Founding Fathers, and all of that, right? And now, it's in this context, if you listen to the whole three minutes something of this message, everything is in perfect context for those just listening out watching.

The preacher is wearing an American flag, kind of like a like a prayer shawl over his shoulders. And this is, again, he's made reference to the Black World Regiment. There have been other speakers making reference to militias and things like that.

And then, this is how he ends his message. But we as the Church of the Living God are standing up saying, we're not just mad at hell, but we're mad as hell. And so, today, I stand with the Black World Regiment, and I stand with them, and I have one preacher declaring to patriots, it is time for war!

Let us stop the steal! Right, that same pastor came on my personal Facebook page, called me a Sissified preacher, and wanted to be clear he was standing with you. Those are the types of comments that are so terribly concerning to me in the unstable environment in which we live today, and to me, the opposite to getting work done by the Gospel.

What's your take? Yeah, you know, I was there, you know, because I actually spoke at that rally in the morning and in the evening. I know the gentleman in question, you know, we've been friends, and we've, you know, preached together in meetings through the last couple of years and things, and I saw where he had come on and kind of defended me. And I even kind of, when I told our church and then people online, I said, please stop trying to defend me. I understand it feels cavalier, and you love me, and all of that, and you're mad at what, you know, Dr. Brown or whoever at that moment did, but you're gonna have to stop defending me, because all it does is put more blood in the water for more people to come and bring a black eye to the body of Christ, and we don't want that. And so, you know, I can't speak for the context of what he meant, but I can tell you that out of four books that the Lord has blessed that we've written, my first one is called This Means War, and it very much is all about spiritual warfare. So when I'm talking about war, I can promise you it's booting up and booting up with a whole armor of God. Well, yeah, and look, one of my books, recent books, is Jezebel's War with America, and that's as confrontational as can be.

Again, it's context, context, context is the big thing, and when you have a crowd there that legitimately believes that their nation, their liberty, their freedom has been stolen from them, literally, and that they'll never have another free election, and that there's reference to Black Road Regiment, and it's time for war, that's really dangerous rhetoric. Pastor, I very much appreciate your concern for the body of Christ, for unity, for the reputation of the gospel. That's why I pressed some of these issues, and we're having this conversation. I've got a couple more questions I'd love for you to clarify, so one more segment on the other side of this break here with Pastor Greg Locke. I hope you're finding this conversation helpful, and to the glory of God. We'll be right back.

Friends, I've got one more segment with Pastor Greg Locke. Sir, you've been gracious, humble, honest. I appreciate that and all your responses. So, I know I didn't raise this initially and say I wanted to talk about this, so feel free to not want to talk about it, although I don't think you'll have a problem talking about it. You're also known for very controversial statements about vaccine, masks, and things like that. So, I've written about a fear-driven agenda. I myself, after much reflection and consideration, still have not been vaccinated. I work with churches in different parts of America that were open with meetings the entire time, unmasked, you know, preached, ministered, and then laid hands on people in the midst of that.

So, I've been very much at home in that environment. At the same time, virtually every friend that I lost to COVID, and it's sadly a good amount, every one of them was not vaccinated, and I have other friends that have issues, different health issues, and for them wearing a mask was important, and it grieved them when churches weren't sensitive to their needs. So, you could say as a shepherd wanting to be Christ-like, there's a pastoral way to do things, to not give way to fear, even if you think the government has an agenda, et cetera, that does not drive people away or make them feel like, I did something wrong if I got vaccinated, if that was my best decision, or if I want to wear a mask. So, would you like to address that issue? Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's always been about medical freedom for me.

You know, I mean, even from the word go. You know, we got in the news media because we had put up a sign that says, you know, we're a mask-free campus. We celebrate faith over fear.

You know, please remove them before you get out of your car. But here's what people don't understand. We had people in our church. I know those that have been through surgical procedures. I mean, you know, I'm their shepherd and have been for years.

I know those that are under, you know, cancer treatments. We never kicked anybody out of our church for wearing a mask other than the protesters that showed up with masks on just because they knew where I stood on masks, if that makes sense. And so, that's why we actually put that sign up, and we didn't even do it. We didn't even make a mask stand until the Delta variant rolled around, kind of during round two. And, you know, there was a clip that CNN put out, and what I said plainly was, look, we've made it this long through this whole debacle without masks, so don't believe this Delta variant, this second one that's coming around, that there's not even a test for. And so, don't show up and start wearing masks now.

We've made it together this long without any fear-mongering, and so we're going to keep moving forward like that. But I told people, look, if you want to wear one on a plane or anywhere, you can wear one in your car. It doesn't matter to me, but don't force me to have to wear one, right? The left is real good about my body, my choice, until it comes to masks and vaccines.

And the same thing with the vaccine. Am I against it? Yes. Do I promote it?

Not at all. But if somebody got it, I'm not going to ridicule them and tell them they got to get out of the church. I've ridiculed the people or the pastors that said, oh, yeah, God would want you to do it. I think you got to be careful about spiritual manipulation in that way because I believe in medical freedom.

If you want to do it, and if you believe that's the healthiest for you and your family, go for it. But just do not encroach upon my rights and tell me that I have to. That's kind of been my stand the whole time. So if people, let's say somebody in your congregation was vaccinated, would they feel like a second-class citizen? Oh, no, we have some that have been, absolutely. And I know it straight up, and they haven't felt like a second-class citizen at all.

Got it. It's been so long since I even brought up that issue. The last time I even brought it up was really in conjunction to being critical of Trump because I got tired of hearing Trump get up talking about it all the time, all the time, all the time.

And so I'm like, look, this guy's about to lose a lot of his fan base. He keeps his nonsense up. And that's even the last thing I've said about it.

Got it. And again, I was not something that was a major issue that I wanted to talk about, but did want to bring it up. Now in your Facebook comment in response to my article, so I understand how it broadsided you now. I understand that you had respected me as a spiritual father in some ways, and it played a role in your life I was unaware of. And now it's like, who's this guy just attacking me?

And he's doing what the left is doing, et cetera. So you responded. I mean, you did say, of course, you come on the show, et cetera, and I should have talked to you privately. And as I've explained, if not for the comment that I really felt was dangerous and could incite your violence, I would not have done this publicly.

Just like I haven't written an article about you in the past, about predictions or other things like that. But you did make some strong statements about me in that. Was that just the emotion of the moment, or do you feel, do you hold to what you wrote there in terms of I sound more woke the more things are going on? And in my article, I made some very immature and unbiblical statements. Is that you're feeling now?

And would you like to explain to me how you feel that way? Or was that just the heat of the moment? Yeah, a couple of things about that. I think some of it was heat of the moment response, just because I was kind of shocked. And maybe if I would have come across it myself, it would have been different.

But all of a sudden, my phone started lighting up like an industry. Look what this guy's saying about you. I can't believe this. I've respected this man. I've supported his ministry. Now he's turning against my friend. And so they're sending me all these articles. And so this guy's woke.

Look what he said about Trump. And so mine was, my goodness, how did this happen? How did he go to the, if you will, dark side of this? And so it was a very quick response to, man, why are these people sending me all of this vitriol from this guy? And then feeling when I sat down and I read it, I was like, okay, maybe he doesn't understand the context of what I just shared with you right here live, that you had a lot of input in my life and coming out of a lot of the things that I did.

But when I came out, I was pretty hot. I was like, man, you know, I've been wanting to meet this guy, you know, think about having this guy at our church, you know, I'm trying to reach out to this guy that all of a sudden, well, now my legs are cut out from under me, you know, now everybody sees it for what it is. And so, man, I just started getting stuff from all over the nation.

I guarantee you, I got a hundred responses before you and I ever even had the first text message and it was quick. And I was like, wow. And so I began to realize it kind of, it kind of took me off guard. I'm like, this is the last exposure that I need right now from somebody that actually has real credibility in the evangelical Christian world. This is the last thing I need. And so I think it was a knee jerk reaction to be like, what in the world?

Is he just as woke as the rest of them? And so that's where that kind of came from. Got it. And just so you know, and thanks, thanks for your candor.

And that's why I asked, I asked the way I asked and in our private interaction, you've been nothing but gracious, humble to me. And look, I do believe it's important. The more exposure we have before the world, we've already been caricatured, right? We're already white supremacists, racists who want to overthrow the nation. And I know you have an adopted daughter who's a person of color.

So understanding your own family life is anything but racist. And that's what you've made clear in your local church. But we're caricatured. We're already, you know, Bible thumping haters, screamers, etc. And, you know, fanatics. So, again, I'll take reproach for the gospel 24-7. If I'm not hated by somebody and lied about online by somebody in a one-hour period, I wonder, what happened?

Am I doing something wrong? You know, because it comes with the turf. I fully understand that. But I think to the extent there can be grace in our speech, we're not mean-spirited, we don't give way to the flesh.

To that extent, we can separate persecution for the gospel and opposition because of our own flesh. And that, to me, is something important. To someone, it may sound weak, but again, look, when I differ with you, I'm going to lose thousands of people because they love you and they think I was unfair to you. And, you know, when I addressed issues with Trump, as someone who voted for him twice, but addressed concerns, I lost like 10,000 people overnight online.

So, it's anything but easy to do this. When my wife read your comment, she said, I told you, you always have to reach out to the person first, because we've had these conversations. And I said, agree 100%, but these days when something crosses a certain line, I've got to nail it immediately and speak out immediately, which is why I did what we did. I appreciate you clarifying everything. I appreciate your graciousness towards me, and I do hope we can meet face-to-face one of these days and talk in a different setting.

We've got a minute left. Is there anything else you'd like to say to everyone listening now? I mean, I do want to say thank you very humbly. We have been very gracious with each other, very kind behind the scenes. I was super grateful that the Lord, you know, shared my cell phone number with you, and that next day you reached out, and so you did reach out.

You took the initiative, and I appreciate that. And I want to say this, just so people understand, you know, I'm 46 years old, and so I've got a long ways to go, right? I got a lot of grooming from the Lord and a lot of maturity, and I want to grow in the Word, and I want to grow as a shepherd. And so, although I really came off hot a couple of weeks ago, I really am trying to find the balance between the angry prophet and the humble shepherd.

And that's a difficult line for a guy like me, because I am very, very pushed back. And so, just to be fair, I think, with myself, I'm looking for that area of growth, and maybe moving forward, that's an area that you'll be able to help me in. And so, there is an angry prophet syndrome within me, but there's also a very kind shepherd that just loves people and just wants to preach Jesus in me as well, and I'm trying to merge the two. I really am. Well, I appreciate that, and yeah, these are lessons the Lord's taught me very deeply over the years, gone through the cross and a lot of brokenness to get to certain places. And if I could be a help in your life, I would. And to whatever extent I was responsible for spreading a false impression or giving place to a false impression, I absolutely apologize. I was seeking to be a faithful shepherd with great concerns about the volatile state of the country today and where things could go, but now we have the opportunity to set the record straight. So, thank you for coming on the air.

We have one of those cell phone numbers now, no reason why we can't. Stay in touch, and any way I can be of help in your life, I mean it from the heart. Please reach out to me. Thank you, brother, and I love you, and I appreciate you for having me.

All right, thank you so much. That was Pastor Greg Locke. You heard it out of the horse's mouth as loudly, clearly, and graciously as you possibly could. And let's pray. Let's pray for God's best. Let's pray that Jesus would be glorified. Let's pray that I could be a blessing in Pastor Locke's life, as he suggests, and that together as followers of Jesus, I'm speaking to everyone hearing my voice right now, we can be known as his followers. There can be a separation of our flesh from the spirit, and Jesus can be glorified, whether by life or by death. Here we are, his servants. Thanks. Another program powered by The Truth Network.