Did Ezekiel Prophesy About Russia's Invasion of Ukraine?

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Do the prophet Ezekiel predict Russia's invasion of Ukraine? It's time for the Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on this thoroughly Jewish Thursday on the Line of Fire.

This is Michael Brown. Here's the phone number to call with any Jewish-related question of any kind. It can be a specific Hebrew Bible or Hebrew language question. It can be a question about Jewish practices or beliefs. It can be a question about Israel today, the Islamic prophecy, Jewish background to the New Testament.

If you're a Jewish listener and you don't agree with me about Jesus Yeshua and want to tell me why and get my response, 866-348-7884 is the number to call. Recently, with the events of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, there's been a lot of attention drawn to Pat Robertson saying, listen, what Putin is doing, he's doing by divine compulsion to fulfill prophecy. And people pointing to Ezekiel 38 and 39 and saying this is in the Bible. This is something prophesied and laid out in which case we are in the last moments of the last days.

Is there any truth to that? How do we look at these passages in Ezekiel 38-39? What does it tell us about Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Again, 866-348-7884. Before I give you my perspective on that, if you missed yesterday's broadcast, please take the time to watch it, to listen to it. If you listen by podcast, if you watch on our YouTube channel, please take the time to check out the Wednesday broadcast, March 2nd, my interview with male, excuse me, female to male.

Of course, you can't actually go from female to male, but quote female to male transgender, Kelly Nugent, known to others as Scott. It's a must listen. It really is. Everybody's busy, but I'm urging you to take the time, especially if you care about the children of this generation. I'm talking about eye-opening, I'm talking about painful, I'm talking about shocking, I'm talking about absolutely relevant, I'm talking about very, very courageous. So be sure to check that out and then share it with your friends.

Okay. The first thing is putting prophecy aside. People are suffering. People are hurting. People are dying.

I was jarred one night last week to think, wait a second. Suddenly people are dying that no one thought would be dying. Now that happens every day, but not in large, large numbers in a city or town. Somebody dies unexpectedly, that happens. But otherwise many deaths we're expecting. Someone's older, someone's been sick, but with war you suddenly have all kinds of casualties that you wouldn't have had. The death rate goes way, way, way up and then how many of those people know the Lord?

How many of those people step into eternity knowing him and how many step out of this world into eternity not knowing him? The gravity of it is very intense. So putting prophecy aside, there is humanitarian crisis right now. People are dying.

People are hurting. And the impact on the globe could be massive. What could come out of this could be massive. The implications, the potential of a World War Three, which we discussed a week ago, what will the world order look like after this? Will it be much of the world against Russia and China or Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, countries like that? Is that what's going to happen? Is that going to be the global shift?

Where is this going to land? And we'll talk about Israel's role in all this. There have been requests for Israel to moderate and mediate the peace talks or ceasefire talks between Russian leaders and Ukrainian leaders because of Israel's unique relationship with both with so many Jews in both countries and so much history in both countries. And Israel wanted to do what it can to stand with Ukraine as far as in humanitarian ways, medical help and things like that, various food supplies, et cetera, as opposed to sending weapons because of the situation with Russian, Russian Jews, et cetera.

So we'll revisit that in a little while. But first, let's take a look in Ezekiel, the 38th chapter, Ezekiel chapter 38. And we're going to look at it on the Sepharia website. We'd normally be looking at our accordance Bible software, but we're going to look at this on a Sepharia.org because this will bring up some other Jewish sources for us. So the first verse, the word of the Lord came to me, right?

So this is speaking, what's the word? Ben Adam, all mortal or son of man. Simpanekha El Gog, Eretz Hamagog, Nisirosh Meshech V'tuval, V'hinaveh Alav. So reading from the new JPS translation, all mortal, we're familiar with son of man. Turn your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tuval, prophesy against him. All right, so notice chief prince of Meshech and Tuval. Let's go over to Bible gateway, biblegateway.com.

Let's look up Ezekiel 38 too, but let's look it up in all English translations that are carried on Bible gateway. So if you look at the ASV, son of man, set thy face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tuval. So notice the prince of Rosh. If you look at the Amplified, the prince of Rosh. If we scroll all the way down to KJV, son of man, set thy face against Gog, land of Magog, chief prince of Meshech and Tuval. If you'll see, the vast majority of translations do not say the prince of Rosh, but rather the chief prince of Meshech and Tuval. So most say the chief prince of Meshech and Tuval. Some, a limited number of translations, say the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tuval.

So let's just go back over to Sforia for a moment. You'll see about halfway through the verse, if you could read Hebrew, Nasi Rosh. Now that could mean the prince of Rosh. And then Rosh, what's Rosh? Well, that must be Russia, correct? Rosh is Russia.

And also Meshech and Tuval. Or he is the Nasi Rosh, the chief prince of Meshech and Tuval. The vast majority of translations understand that this has to do with Gog Magog. So Gog, the leader of this land, Magog, what's that? What does it represent?

Is it just abstract? It's just powers of chaos and darkness at the end of the age, invading Israel. Revelation 20 puts it after the millennial kingdom when there's a final war. And again, Revelation is borrowing all kinds of imagery from the Old Testament, not necessarily in a chronological way. But there will be this end-time invasion of Israel, and then Gog will fight for Israel. We have that elsewhere, like Zechariah 12, Zechariah 14, and Gog will ultimately deliver Israel from Israel's enemies.

But is this prophesying that Russia will be part of leading the invasion? So first thing is, no, it's not the right translation. It is not the prince of Rosh, and now Rosh somehow equals Russia, but rather the chief prince of Meshech and Tuval. I just want to pull up for you a rabbinic commentary by Radaq, Rabbi David Kimchi, which is, oh, 800-something years old. And for those who can read Hebrew, wonderful.

If not, I'm just going to translate for you. This is how he understands the Sirosh Meshech for Tuval. He says, Gog Hu Melech Magog. He is the king of Magog. U Melech shteha u mota ele, Meshech for Tuval.

And he is the king of these two peoples, Meshech and Tuval. So it is a mistranslation to say prince of Rosh, Rosh equals Russia. That's number one. Discard that. Number two, what does this have to do with Russia invading Ukraine?

Even if it was about Russia, Russia's been involved with invading different nations for many, many years and expanding its territory and form a Soviet Union and all of that, you could have just said, well, the expansion in the past, that was Gogu Magog. It's got nothing to do with it. You say, no, no, no. But if you'll study it through, you'll see that it's people coming from the north. Okay. When Jeremiah prophesied, Jeremiah 1, and God showed him a vision of destruction coming from the north.

All right. So when that happened, Jeremiah 1, destruction coming from the north, that was actually Babylon. You said, well, I don't get that because Babylon is like to the east and even maybe south of Israel and Judah.

Correct. But in order to invade, you had to come all the way up around the Euphrates River and then come down. So you came from the north, even though you might've been in another place, it didn't mean that you had to be geographically north. And then Saphon, in Hebrew, north, that was in mythological literature, Canaanite literature, that was the place where the gods dwelt in Saphon, Mount Saphon.

They dwelt at the top of this mountain. So there's a literal Mount Saphon, but in mythology, this is where the gods dwelt. And then in the Bible, trouble comes from the north. It's the place of darkness. It's the place of disaster.

So it doesn't even have to be a geographical place. All right, the Bible's saying forget the myths, but there is destruction that comes from the north. And for Israel and Judah invading nations, unless you were Egypt coming up from the south or Philistines from the southwest, otherwise you'd be coming down from the north, even if geographically you were just east or even south.

You had to come around Euphrates and then come down. So the idea that somehow these prophecies relate to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, unless someone was given supernatural insight and was told by the Lord that this is going to lead to this, which is going to lead to this, which is going to lead to this, which is going to lead to this, which is going to lead to eventually Ezekiel 38, 39, if we take them literally, which I do, even if there's symbolism in them. Ultimately, it's a literal war that's going to happen at the end of the age. There's nothing in the text to connect these. For the life of me, I don't get it with all respect to Pat Robertson.

I'm not saying this to bash him. I see no possible connection. By the way, when you look up scholarly commentary on Gog, Magog, there's a lot of discussion in terms of who Gog was in the past, represented in the future, what it will be. But Meshech and Tuval, here's one cultural background commentary in the Old Testament, at the end of the eighth century, these two Anatolian kingdoms were ravaged by internal warfare conquered by Sargon II of Assyria and invaded by the Khmerians from southern Russia. So they are not Russia. Meshech and Tuval were not Russia. They were Anatolian. Today we'd equate that with parts of Turkey and those kinds of areas, but not Russia there.

The Meshech and Tuval were not even Russia. In any case, it's just, there's no connection. If you want to come call in and argue for it and present your case as to why they're connected, phone lines are open. 866-34-TRUTH. But there's no connection. Zero connection.

And I have no idea why people would think there is a connection. Just being candid, making your calls when we come back. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome welcome, friends. Looks like we missed our Jewish music on Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. That happens, not the end of the world. I'm sure we'll get it back in in the next segments, but it is.

You're like, what? Your whole orientation just got shifted because you're ready for the Jewish music. It was Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, which reminds you that it's Thursday and you're like, what day is it? Well, maybe you're listening on a different day. If you're listening live, it's Thursday. It's March 3rd, 2022. Yeah, 2022. Crazy.

866-34-87884. By crazy, I mean, it's just crazy how time really does fly. Sometimes it feels like it's standing still.

Other times it feels like it's flying. But I think back 50 years when I got saved, we didn't think we're going to be here 50 years later. No way, no how. Jesus is coming any minute.

Hal Lindsey's book, Late Great Planet Earth, lays everything out. It's there. The prophecy is being fulfilled. Now, the good part about Late Great Planet Earth, it made many people realize the Bible is relevant. The Bible speaks to our day. The Bible is not antiquated. On the other hand, a lot of the anticipated stuff didn't happen on schedule, which then makes people wonder if the Bible is true, relevant. So I do believe the Bible speaks very definitely to the day in which we're living, but not primarily by pinpointing the headlines, not primarily by identifying COVID with a plague from the book of Revelation or today's events in Russia and Ukraine with the book of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39.

No, it speaks to us by showing us who God is, showing us how we should live, speaking words that are relevant to each generation. And then the closer we get to the final generation, things will become even more and more relevant. You say, but how are we going to know? Well, as it unfolds, we'll know.

Until then, no reason to speculate. How does it help? How does it help?

Even if you could find this in the Bible, which I don't believe you can, and it may blow into something massively bigger, and then there may be exponential change in the next 10 years, and then Jesus may return. But barring something like that, in which case it'll get clearer and clearer, how does it help the crisis right now? How does it help the people suffering? How does it help us respond?

Prophecy is often given future prophecy to teach us how to live today. 866-348-7884. By the way, if you were listening on our live feed on radio, you would have heard two consecutive ads for our partner, Dr. Mark Stangler and his wonderful health supplements. It's somehow played twice, so let me make sure to remind you, go to vitaminmission.com, check out the wonderful health supplements that are there.

You do what you can to live healthily, add these supplements in, or let them help you along with eating healthily. A great, great thing to do, and so many that just relate to everyone on all different walks of life. And remember, you get a special discount when you use our code, and then in turn, Dr. Stangler makes a donation to our ministry to help us reach more people.

So it's win-win-win as you do it. Okay, I'm gonna go straight to the phones, and then we'll come back and look at Biblical texts a bit more. Let's go to Jasmine in Miami, Florida. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. I hope I was well with you. God bless you. Thank you.

Absolutely. I want you to know that I'm a Christian, and I have done apologetic. I have had numerous conversations about it in my community, and I've spoken with Rabbi Tuvias, a relatively well-known rabbi, as well as the atheist community. And I was challenged with a scripture in New Testament, and the scripture that they felt depicted that the Christian faith should not worship Jesus. The scripture that I'm speaking of is Revelation 19, 10. And depending on the version that you read, what essentially is described in the text, the way that they depict it, is that God alone is to be worshiped in the scripture, and that Jesus is simply the spirit of prophecy, meaning he did pre-exist, but he is not God, and that you are only to worship the Father of God. And I was hoping that you could give me a Christian interpretation.

Yeah. First, it's one of the most bizarre interpretations I've ever heard. Saying that Jesus is the spirit of prophecy means he's the essence of the spirit of prophecy. The prophets are prophesying about him. That's what it means. That the whole purpose of prophecy is to point to Jesus.

Right? So if you think of spirit as essence here, it doesn't say Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy. The testimony of Jesus, telling the story of Jesus, is the whole spirit of prophecy.

So first, it's completely butchering the reading. Any translation will tell you it's the testimony of Jesus. It's bearing witness to him, which is what the prophets are about.

So that's the first thing. Complete misinterpretation there. Secondly, the reason that the angel refuses worship is because the angel is not God. But go back with me to Revelation chapter 5, okay? Revelation chapter 5, and let's start in verse 9. So the 24 elders, others, they sang a new song saying, Worthy are you to the Lamb of God, to Jesus, to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain by your blood ransom, you ransomed people of God. It goes on. Then, verse 11, Revelation 5, 11, Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.

Now get this. And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen, and the elders fell down and worshiped. So it doesn't get any clearer than that, that everything in creation worships the Father and the Son, and that he is worthy of our worship. So you don't bow down to a man or to any created being. The fact that they fall down and worship the Lamb proves his divinity because you only do that for deity.

You don't do that for an angel or for a man. So that that's one of the best verses to use that completely demolishes their own position. Because you say, why would it say worship God? And then for the spirit of for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, if not for the fact that he is God.

That's the whole point. Not only so, if you look in Revelation chapter one, all right, Revelation chapter one, when you you scroll down in that chapter, you have Revelation one eight. I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come the Almighty. So Alpha and Omega, that's the first, the last, the beginning and the end.

Be like the A and Z. Right. That's Revelation one eight. When you so that's that's the Father speaking. That's God speaking. When you get down to Revelation chapter twenty two. Now, Jesus is speaking beginning in verse twelve. Behold, I'm coming soon, bringing my recompense with me to repay each one for what he's done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. So a complete identification with his father in ways that this can only be said about God, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. That can only be said about God.

So Revelation is the last place they want to go to try to disprove the deity of Jesus. Thank you so much for that, Dr. Brown. You are very, very welcome. Yeah, you threw me a real nice slow ball to hit out of the park. I mean, that's that's that's shocking.

Well, I shouldn't say shocking because different ones will use all kinds of impossible arguments to try to refute our position. We just have to demolish them with truth. So thank you for the call. Much appreciated. Eight six six three four truth. Let's go to Tamara in Stafford, Texas. Welcome to the line of fire.

Hello, Dr. Brown. Thanks for taking my call. I really appreciate your ministry and listening into your show to hear a lot of scripture. I have a question concerning the New Covenant and the covenants of the Old Testament. So in the Old Testament, I could be wrong, but there were four covenants that God made, the covenant of Noah, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant and the Davidic Covenant. When Jesus came and died for our sins, we were given a new covenant on the promises. So my question is, which of the old of the Old Covenant did the New Covenant come in to? I don't like the word replaced, but which one did it come to replace? And I'm thinking it's the Mosaic one. And if it did, I know circumcision was given as the part of the Abrahamic Covenant, so are Jewish followers of Jesus still obligated to do circumcision?

Beautiful questions, just like the last one. Yes, read Jeremiah 31 verses 31 to 34, which is then quoted in full in Hebrews 8 and then in shorter form later. This is the longest straight passage quoted anywhere in the New Testament.

It's Jeremiah 31 verses 31 to 34. God explicitly speaks of the Sinai Covenant or as you refer to it, others do, the Mosaic Covenant, explicitly speaks to that and says you broke that. And obviously Israel is going to continue to fall short under that. God set these standards.

Israel continues to fall short. Judgment has to come. So God says the New Covenant will not be like the formal one. And this time I'm going to write the laws in your heart. So rather than saying do this, but not empowering you to, I'm going to give you the power to live differently and I'll forgive your sins, won't remember them anymore. So absolutely, that was the New and Better Covenant replaces the Mosaic Covenant. Many of the same laws are not written on your heart, but your precise question is the right one. The Abrahamic Covenant was given before and that goes back to Genesis 17 and circumcision and therefore does that still apply? If we say the land promises still apply, are Jewish believers in Jesus obligated to circumcise their boys on the eighth day?

If not, are they cut off? We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We have had a breakdown with our Jewish music on Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. All right guys, don't worry about it. On the last segment, we will just not have it, but not sure if that happens. Waiting for it, they found a really nice way to transition from skillets resistance into Thoroughly Jewish Thursday music, but there must be a computer issue. So we move on undaunted. Welcome to the broadcast, friends. Thanks for joining us. 866-348-7884.

866-34-TRUTH is the number to call. Israel is in a very delicate situation when it comes to Russia and Ukraine because Israel is always thinking first about Jews around the world, its own country, and Jews around the world. If we do this, what happens to the Jewish population in France, in England, in America, in Russia? What happens in Ukraine?

What are the consequences? So it's always balancing that feeling of responsibility for world Jewry and not wanting to act irresponsibly in a way that could cause pain and suffering for Jews in other parts of the world. So if Israel says, okay, we're going to send our weapons into Ukraine, which many of us would want them to do with the level of technology and the weapons that Israel has, obviously many of them bought from America, but that would further inflame things with Russia to the point of potentially endangering many of the Jews living there. And it's still a substantial population. As many as have moved to Israel, there remains a substantial population in Russia. They don't want to abandon the people of Ukraine in general and then the Jews within Ukraine. So thus far from my understanding, they've been trying to work behind the scenes to get the leaders together to broker a ceasefire while sending in doctors, medical supplies, other humanitarian supplies to do the best they can to care for people on the ground. But that's when I saw that Prime Minister Naftali Bennett politely told President Zelensky, sorry, we can't send weapons. That's some of the dynamic to it, whether right or wrong, best decision, worst decision.

Very hard to say. I mean, lots of things have to be weighed out. Most of us, I would imagine, our sympathies are very clearly with Ukraine. And just gut level reaction is, okay, send whatever weapons we need to push Russia back into them. You just can't do this. You can't just march into another sovereign nation and do this. And if you try, there are penalties. And we're not going to let you do what Hitler did in the past and take over this country, this country, this country, then all of Europe is threatened and the world is potentially threatened. We're not going to let that happen. On the other hand, you do that, it may provoke something much bigger, which would lead to even more loss of life.

So you save a few thousand lives here and you cost a few million lives somewhere else. So there needs to be a lot of wisdom. There needs to be a lot of wisdom. We need to pray for our leaders to have, well, I didn't vote for Biden. I didn't vote for Joe Biden either. I am not pleased with many, many, many of President Biden's policies and statements and things like that. Although you don't hear me bring it up on the air every day because my goal here is not to just be a conservative voice bashing Biden or praising Republicans. That's not why I'm on the air.

It's not why I'm here. But I want Joe Biden, President Biden to do the right thing. I'm praying that he will. I'm praying that God will give him wisdom and that God will will restrain human suffering. We know there's war and conflict. That's just part of this world.

Tragically, human beings doing that to other human beings. But anyway, I mean, I didn't mean to go off on that and leave Tamara hanging with a question. I want to come right back to you.

I just got caught up in in the moment. OK, so so number one, I do not believe there is an obligation of circumcision on Jewish believers in Jesus and their sons, as if if you do not circumcise them, you were cut off from the people because we are now not simply physical descendants of Abraham or by intermarriage at some points married into being physical descendants. But first and foremost, in Messiah, we are spiritual descendants. So, yes, I am a Jew in terms of my ethnic identity and my religious history. But I'm first and foremost in the Messiah and a brother and sister with other believers in Jesus, be they Jew or Gentile. I believe that it is a good thing and a right thing and a way of ongoing identification that is very positive. And in the whole messianic Jewish community, that's practiced.

And many Jewish believers in Jesus would would practice it even in churches. But I don't believe there's an obligation. I believe we stand in a different relationship to the law, even to that covenant. So it's it's a reminder.

It's a good thing. It's part of our tradition and history. But I don't look at it as obligatory, somewhat different with me on that. But I feel quite sure that Jews through history that came to faith in churches and kind of left a lot of Jewish identity behind. I'm quite sure that they didn't lose out on salvation or knowing the Lord because they simply thought that was part of the old. But as you say, it predates the Sinai covenant. And therefore, I do believe it's it's a positive, right, godly thing, but not an obligation. So hope that answers your question.

Yes, sir. The only thing I would ask is that do you kind of see it as like so like with with believers in Jesus, it is a requirement for us to be baptized. But if you don't get baptized, it wouldn't stop you from being saved. Well, if you refuse to be. No, no. Thanks for pressing deeper. If you refuse to be baptized as a believer, I question whether you're really a believer because you are casting off the most fundamental commandment to a believer.

What? Believe and be baptized, repent and be baptized to refuse to do that. It's not about not having an opportunity or being ignorant, but to refuse to do that. I question whether that person belongs to the Lord.

If they hold out, refuse to do it. I question that they can call Yeshua Lord, where circumcision is not a New Testament command. And Paul makes explicit in 1 Corinthians 7 in Galatians 6 that is for our salvation, it does not matter either way. It absolutely does not matter either way. Paul's very explicit on that. And of course, for a Gentile, there's no requirement.

So I'd encourage you to check out 1 Corinthians 7, starting in around verse 16, 17, and then Galatians, the sixth chapter. Hey, thank you again for the call. Much appreciated. 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go to Josh in Ohio.

Thanks for holding. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. My uncle, he is kind of getting into the anti-Semitic area, because he talks about how all the Jews nowadays descend from the Karzai kingdom, and that all of the leading individuals in the upper echelons of society are Jewish, and that how they control and run the world. And this is a man that I've lived with for pretty much my whole life. And I love him, and he's probably one of the wisest guys that I know when it comes to the Jews. And, you know, my question is, is that, how do I—do you have any references of materials that I can go over with him? Oh yeah, yeah, sure. Of course. Of course. So do you have my book, Our Hands Are Stained with Blood? No. Okay. The new edition of that, I address many of these things, the myth of descent from the chazzars, which has been refuted over and over again, and now with DNA and other things like that. That and some of the other major myths about the Jewish people.

Tell you what I want to do. That and my book, Christian Anti-Semitism, they have lots and lots of references. So you're going to take the time to sit down, learn these for yourself, look up the references that we have and the footnotes and things like that. You're going to take the time to do that and then sit down with your father, correct? Yeah. Okay.

So here's what I want to do. I want to send you those two books as a gift. And you can even tell your dad, the author of these books, this radio host, sent them for the two of you to go through. Now, some of the material in the books is not directly relevant to these questions, but I take the key anti-Semitic lies that are being circulated today. I take on those key lies and then I address them forthrightly in these books and then I make reference to other books, online articles you can look up for free, other resources from other authors you can buy. So what you want to do is go to those relevant chapters and in Our Hands Are Stained with Blood, you'll find lies, lies, lies. That's one of the key chapters, but you'll flip through. You'll find it easily enough.

Same in Christian anti-Semitism. And like I said, you'll have both the facts within the book and then, okay, dad, let's read this online resource together. It's also worth asking your dad. Did you ever see the movie Fiddler on the Roof? Did he ever see that, do you think? No, I've never seen that. You've never seen it. Okay.

No. So if you've ever, you haven't seen it, those who've seen it, it shows Jews in terrible poverty, situations like they were in in Eastern Europe, Russia in centuries past and the pogroms where they're attacked and they have to flee to another country. This has been Jewish existence in many parts of the world for many centuries, impoverished, outcast. The whole idea that Jews control the world or Jews control economy. It's like, yeah, many Jews have risen to high places in America.

China is a superpower. Are we saying the Jews control China? You just start throwing the Vatican still has its influence. Do the Jews control the Vatican? And on and on. When Jews are being slaughtered around the world, where's all the Jewish control of all the world?

You have to expose some of the craziness of it, but we deal with the Khazar myth and we blow that out of the water and some of these others. So here's what we're going to do, Josh. Stay right there. Grayson is going to get your contact info and then we are going to send you our hands are stained with blood and Christian anti-Semitism.

Take the time to read the relevant chapters, look up the relevant references, and then you can sit with your dad. You can go through these things and separate myth from fact. Hey friends, this is only going to get worse. Lies about Israel and the Jewish people, at least during this season, are only going to get worse. I'm frankly surprised that Jews were not scapegoated more and Israel was not scapegoated more for COVID because perennially, when you need a scapegoat, when you need to blame somebody, the Jews get blamed. You know, it happened during the black plague where, you know, massive populations were wiped out, you know, large percentage, a third of populations, just people dying. And Jews following biblical quarantine and following the traditions didn't die in as high numbers, still died. Ah, because the Jews started it. The Jews poisoned the wells, the crazy stuff like that.

So there was some scapegoating, not as much as we might have expected. All right, we'll be right back. Take some more calls. 866-34-TRUTH. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to our Thoroughly Jewish Thursday broadcast without Jewish music today.

866-348-7884. Again, I just want to give you perspective, then go back to the phones. Because the Jewish people have been without a homeland for much of our history, actually most of our history, if you think of it, right? You can, scholars date the exodus from Egypt and then the conquest of Canaan. Some put it in the late 15th century, so 1400s, others about two centuries after that. Ah, but let's just say, let's just say that the Jewish people or the people of Israel were in the promised land. Let's just give kind of a max figure for almost 1500 years until the destruction of the Second Temple, and then some years after that, scattering out of Jerusalem.

Let's just say it's a 1500 year period. Most of our history, we've been out of the land. Oh, we've always had a remnant of people, small numbers of people, sometimes larger numbers, but in terms of that being the national homeland, and then under Jewish sovereign control, that's been an even shorter period of time. So we've been scattered, we've been persecuted, we've been rejected, we've been exiled from other countries, we've been killed. So it's natural that a lot of things are seen through the lens of how does this affect us?

This and the Jewish question. This politician gets elected, how does it affect us? Look, in a similar way, many black Americans who have only in a shorter period of our history had full voting rights and full rights as citizens and equal opportunities, etc. That's the shorter part of African history in America. The longer part was deprivation, inequality, things like that.

Slavery, different parts of the country were worse, other parts better. But it's very natural that an African American will still be thinking, okay, if this person is elected, how does it affect my people? How does it affect our community?

And we all do that on a certain level. You're an evangelical Christian. If this one's elected, how does it affect me? But Jews have done this historically in a worldwide way because of, all right, how does it affect us?

That's the bottom line. So it's understandable that the Russian Ukraine conflict where so many Jews have lived and so many Jews have died in some atrocious, horrific ways over the centuries, how does it affect us? And what's the outcome going to be? How should we as the people of Israel be involved?

So that's why things are sifted through that, or seen through that grid. 866-34-truth. Let's go to Josh in Saginaw, Michigan.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Josh, are you there? Hi, doctor. Yes, I am.

Hi, Dr. Brown. Yeah, go ahead. Hey, I have a question specifically out of the English Standard Version. It says, an errand shall cast, this is Leviticus 16.8, an errand shall cast lots over two goats, one lot for the Lord and one for a vazel. And I was curious, I've looked up a lot about it, and it goes into, you know, maybe some people think it's a Hebrew, demonic goat kind of thing.

I was just curious of your take on it. Yes, so in Hebrew it's Azazel, which you gave it a good shot reading the English there. Most English translations would say scapegoat, right?

What does it mean? Some have argued that, etymologically, it is the A's, the goat that azals, that escapes. And then it's the goat that escapes, which comes into English, the shortened form scapegoat, right? The escape goat is the scapegoat. And then we get the larger idiomatic understanding that that's the one that gets the blame and the bad stuff and so on, scapegoating, so that goes in some way. So there are different arguments. The one is that that's what it means etymologically, it is the goat that escapes.

And that's all that the word means. The other interpretation is that Azazel is a demonic figure. And we know, for example, if you go to, oh, say the Book of Isaiah, chapter 33, you'll find reference, or 34, 13th chapter as well, you'll find reference to animals in the wilderness, and then some it seems are not just animals, but demonic creatures.

Isaiah 34, 13th, thorn shall grow over its strongholds, nettles and thistles in its fortresses. It should be the haunt of jackals and a boat for ostriches. And wild animals shall meet with hyenas. The wild goat shall cry to his fellow. Indeed, there the night bird settles. There the owl nests and lays and hatches, etc.

The hawks are gathered. Others translate at least one of those words is like a night demon or a satyr, something like that. It's part demon, part animal, so that these these spiritual creatures are depicted in the Hebrew Bible. The problem is there's no way that there could be a sacrifice to demons.

That's not possible. So what would have to mean is that because this animal is now unclean, right, when you lay hands on it, Aaron lays hands on it, the high priest lays hands on it, confesses it over it all the sins and transgressions of the nation, right? And then it's sent out into the wilderness. Is it sent out to Azazel, meaning because it is unclean and full of sin, it goes out into the dark place to the demons or to the specific demon because the unclean is going to the unclean and this way Israel is purged. The problem would be if there's any notion that a sacrifice would be made to a demon, which would be completely contrary to biblical law. But that is one of the arguments that scholars give, that it was sent out to this demonic power in the wilderness and that was the way of banishing sin from the nation. And it could well be true, it could well be what it means, but it's debatable.

It's interesting, it's such a major thing and it's so debatable, but we don't know for sure. Now let me just grab one other note for you. So I'm going to go to the IVP Bible background commentary, Interversity Press Bible background commentary. You can actually get cultural commentary in the Bible and it gives extensive Old Testament, New Testament background just in that one text. But I'm just going to go over to Leviticus 16 and Azazel 16.8, the Hebrew word translated scapegoat is Azazel. This translation results in dividing the Hebrew word into two words an unlikely solution. The gate, the goat that escapes, they say is unlikely. Since verse eight identifies one goat as for Yahweh and the other goat as for Azazel, it is most consistent to consider Azazel a proper name, probably of a demon.

Early Jewish interpreters had this understanding as it demonstrated in the book of Enoch, second century BC. The goat is not sacrificed to Azazel, consistent with 17.7 in Leviticus, which says don't sacrifice to demons, but released to Azazel. Verse 26 Babylonians believed in Alu demons that lived in deserted wasteland and this may be a similar concept in Ebla tablets. There is a purification right for a mausoleum using a goat which is then released into the steppe country. But I just want to read Leviticus 17.7 to you which, hang on, let me get to the right screen here. Leviticus 17.7 is very explicit and it says there, Leviticus 17.7, so they shall no more sacrifice their sacrifices to goat demons after whom they whore there shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generation. So for sure this was not a sacrifice to a demon, but it could have been released to this demon in the wilderness representing uncleanness and this is where the uncleanness goes.

Last point, by the time of Jesus from what we can tell, Jews had changed the tradition so that the goat was beaten and then driven off a cliff so it would actually die, but that was not originally what happened. Interesting, thank you so much for some insight, Dr. Brown, I appreciate everything you do. You bet, you bet.

My joy to be of help. Yeah, and by the way, a lot of people like more dogmatic answers. Where I can give them, I give them.

Where I have them, I have them. Where scholars have debated things for centuries, where religious leaders have debated things for centuries, sometimes you need to say there's this view and there's this view and we're not entirely sure. Oh, someone's so sure, they may think they're sure.

Okay, I'm just going to share from my heart these last couple of minutes. It is very frustrating, as I'm sure you know, to have knowledge on an expert level in a particular subject, to hear someone who has no real knowledge on that subject get up and talk and to see that masses of people follow the misinformation. I'm not talking about a debatable issue. I'm not talking about scholars weigh it and arguments go one way or another and no, I'm talking about the moon is made of Swiss cheese and if you'll study it, you'll find out and there's a message the way it shifts. There's a message each month for us during the full moon and you're sitting there as an astronomer with a PhD in astronomy who lectures at a leading university and you hear this stuff and you think, who even believes this?

Then you think, you know, the video's gone viral and now there's the Swiss cheese moon theory. You think, yeah, so I've had to live with it with certain biblical knowledge for decades. You've had to live with it in other areas when you're in the know, but you just can't snuff out all the error. That's the reality.

So what do you do? You put out the truth, put out the truth. There's always going to be deception, lies, misinformation.

That's the reality. But to the extent that we put out the truth, live by the truth, we won't be deceived and we'll help others not be deceived. And then we leave the rest to the Lord. Mark April 14th on your calendars, April 14th. Mark it. I'll tell you why soon.

Put a mark by it. April 14th. In the meantime, read Esther 4-14. Esther 4-14. Another program powered by the truth network.