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Are the Gifts of the Spirit for Today? A Debate

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown
The Truth Network Radio
October 11, 2021 5:20 pm

Are the Gifts of the Spirit for Today? A Debate

Line of Fire / Dr. Michael Brown

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October 11, 2021 5:20 pm

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The following is a prerecorded program. We take you into debate today have the charismatic gifts ceased stalking for the line of fire with your host activist all the international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience have resident of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire valves like always 866-34-TRUTH that's 866-34-TRUTH your again is Dr. Michael Brown friends, this is Michael Brown and today Monday and Tuesday Wednesday Thursday of this week we are taking you into debates that have done over the last several years. If I call only back to 2013 debates of the gifts of the spirit debates on the nature of God debates on predestination election debates on is Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, and today we start with my debate. This is June 22, 2018 with Dr. theater Zechariah.

This on the charismatic gifts of the gifts of the spirit ceased. I was invited to do this debate in his really first were going to take you into his opening comments through this segment. So we will play all of his opening comments representative a section as much as we can play right then we can come back in the next segment take you into my opening comments. The segment after that really get you some of the back-and-forth Q&A in the last segment our closing statements. If you go to our YouTube channel asked Dr. Brown asking your brain on YouTube.

You see a link to the description in the description that will take you to the debate entirely.

Here you go Dr. Zechariah.

This is up. My position is basically the historic position and of course, history is not the only arbiter of my view. But it is substantiated by his strict, more importantly, it's the biblical position and what I mean by that is, first of all, we have a misnomer with the very terms charismatic gifts because I understand what people mean when they say that and so I agree sort of reluctantly to use those terms. But when you look at the text and today my projects will be first Corinthians 1st Princess chapter 12 begins what is known as the discussion on this spiritual gifts. The charismatic it.

But when you look at chapter 12 the word that we find there is not at his mother, charismatic, or charisma, the however you want to transliterate that but spiritual. Not in my authorized version. It says gifts as well, but the word gifts is not in the original so the term cut his mother is one of the ways that the enumerated spirituals are designated one among many terms and moreover, when you are looking at first Corinthians. You have to remember that this letter is a corrective letter. If you miss this important truth, you will end up trying to emulate the Corinthians, when Paul is trying to correct the Corinthians. What you have to understand about the letter is that Paul is dealing with people in the church that were number one very very worldly and he calls them tzatziki. They are fleshly people. Okay their carnal, if you will then not spiritual toll. They think their spiritual sink and so when chapter 12 begins begins with the expression now concerning what you find several places in the book and this is because they have address these matters with people and they have asked about spiritual things or spiritual person because that term in first Corinthians 12 is not the word cut his mother. It's the word spirituals and the people that were inquiring of Paul ask about spirituality because they claimed to be spiritual because they had the so-called spiritual gifts, particularly speaking in tongues now. If you miss this if you miss the corrective. If you miss the particular nuances of what all rights then you received by the English translation, particularly the one I prefer the King James because it speaks about you know spiritual gifts when the word gifts is not even in the text okay so this is part of the problem not only with a carnal, but they were having factions in the church. They were dividing someone saying on this person on following this person there was a group that was evidently following Christ. Surprise, surprise.

Not only that, but there were other things going on in the church the sensuousness to the degree that it would put pagans the shame where a man had his father's wife. Chapter 5. What we find is that there's no discerning of the body of Christ and therefore many of the Corinthians were actually sick is a judgment of God. Not only that, but some were actually dying because of their not discerning the body of Christ. Chapter 1110 and 11. What you find is divisions between those who have and those who have not.

There were people that were hungry and then there were others who were bringing food and they were eating and Paul has to tell him all these things about.

Look, I'm not Praised you and I praise you your being divisive.

You're being carnal. You are not spiritual. It's a very combative letter and when you read it with second Corinthians, you find even more of the same even Pentecostal Gordon fee acknowledges that on every turn.

Paul is combating the Corinthians that was a significant what because when you get to see what the actual words are in the text, particularly chapters 12 through 14 which is this unit and I take it as a unit. I don't believe chapter 13 is an position I don't believe it's a poem about love like you have there on the side of your unit up there you taken those words out about love is love is love is that's that's of the point.

The point is, it's about the gifts. Chapter 13 is not some imposition. Some scholars believe the pool rodeo may be the and even right eroded for something else and put it in near the know it's carefully crafted and it is designed to inform the Corinthians that the gifts of going to cease. I'm going to show you that from the text today. So let's begin in chapter 12 now concerning the spirituals.

He's about to tell them about what's going on in the first thing he says he reminds them of their past when they were Gentiles led away by demonic spirits and has to tell them right off the bat that anybody who says Jesus is a karst is not speaking by the Holy Spirit, what is that about why on earth is the beginning when the very thing that is a problem because he has the dress because the Corinthians are some speaking in languages which is the normal spirit gift of tongues. Others are being led by the demonic and are uttering things that in another language. Someone was able to recognize and they were saying that Jesus is a curse on nothing.

On the other hand, if you say Jesus is Lord, you can only say that it doesn't mean just let single words, he means believing affirming taking on Jesus in one's life. As Lord only by the Holy Spirit. So what the Corinthians were doing the haves and have-nots with food money, status, elitism and spirituality.

Paul levels the playing field since everyone who claims Jesus is doing it by the Holy Spirit when you think you guys are doing these things, showy things, you are the ones are the spirit,' he levels the playing field and he goes on, he says that there are different gifts right will use that term. Paul says that there are five adversities of gifts.

He says that there are differences of administrations. He says there are diversities of operations and he says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for the benefit of all.

This is an underlying theme for pool, particularly when you get to chapter 14 going to meet with Amico the meat that means edification, edification, everything is for edification for the church for the whole so he begins to list these and 1C less than what you find is tongues doesn't fare very well.

Starts off with anyone says Jesus is accursed and then list the gifts and tongues come right at the end which is significant, and then he says this but covet earnestly the best gifts and yet I show you a more excellent way. Now that translation is faulty because after pointing out the problems after enumerating the illustration and outlining the gifts and putting tongues at the bottom which was the price gift for the Corinthians.

It would be a contradiction of Paul to now tell them after he's designated the spirit as the sovereign that determines what gifts are given to whom to tell them now you seek gifts because this is a mistranslation of the original zero day in the great comedian imperative it can be the same form, meaning it's a command post telling them do this but better. According to the context is seeing this term as we call not an imperative command but in indicative, Paul is saying this is what you are doing according to your estimation you are seeking what you your minds think are the best gifts and the adverse is what I show you a better way. So what you have is you have poor correcting chiding them, which is the tenor of the entire letter. Then, after telling them this.

He gets into the more excellent way to the left.

Check the right and what is the first thing says the first thing he says is if I speak so men and elves.

Tongues now is why because tongues is the problem.

I got a jump in and interrupt the same timeframe, we will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends were taking bag of 26 rightists on the gifts of the weather.

The have ceased when they continue today. Here is an extended excerpt from my opening comments of this debate same time Dixit Dr. Zacharia set on the air now my turn now.

We agree that the argument is explicitly what Scripture says it's fascinating that you have church leaders for centuries. Time a prophecy in healing and miracles and Augustine about 1600 years ago when he was writing the city of God, believe that these things were still happening, but when they documented more than 70 miracles in two years. He said obviously the apostolic miracles, and gifts still exist, however, that doesn't touch on the issue or question is what Scripture said Prof. Kagan, Craig Keener and is highly praised two-volume study miracles estimates that there are at least 200 million living eyewitnesses to miracles done in Jesus name. Today, but that does not impact the question with the Scripture say. In fact, if the cripple was healed here tonight that would not impact the question and if it televangelist was exposed as a phony healer that would not impact the question.

The question is what the Scripture say and it's really open shut very simple be totally candid and let's remember we are so Scripture people. We believe the Scriptures alone are God's authoritative word. If Scripture gives me explicit instructions about pursuing the gifts about the function of the gifts about things. The time with the nature and character of God explicit in Scripture and then tell me these things will continue until Jesus returns, all of which I can demonstrate very easily by Scripture in Greek and English in whatever language you want to read it. Then, in less something within the Bible comes and tells me that stopped in certain point, unless I have something explicit in Scripture. I just have to go but would buy the Bible for so let's we can get into Greek nuances, Hebrew nuances, we really have respective PhD's in Hebrew and Greek. We didn't all that but I'm quite sure the plane and simple sense of Scripture's overall nuclear so notice what Paul did write after first Corinthians 13, which we heard read a moment to go which will return to. He says this pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and above all, that you may prophesy in their both imperative in the Greek and every translation will verify that for you. So he's telling the Corinthians to pursue love and to pursue the guess why because they go hand-in-hand, just as Paul corrected abuses with the Lord's supper without rejecting the Lord's supper. He corrected abuses and tongues without rejecting tongues. In fact I speak in tongues more than all of you and the one who speaks in tongues speaks mysteries to God. The problem was the abuse and he says this when you come together each one of you has a him a lesson, a revelation. The tongue interpretation little things be done for building up, and then he concludes prescriptions 1439 so my brothers earnestly desire to prophesy again re-translation after translation from the King James on the say the same thing and do not forbid speaking in tongues, so I need something in the Bible that overrules it.

I needed text that tells me don't do that anymore because I know it's happening today.

I've experienced it. It's been experience, not just for hundred years back with you.

Church history in different ways. II need something explicit in Scripture that tells me not that a certain point in time is can appear out because it hasn't. I'm telling tell me that that's changed the lesson we can give an explicit text telling me not to earnestly desire prophecy and telling me not to permit tongues that are going earnestly desire, prophecy, and I won't forbid tongues is not just first Corinthians. Again, this is this the Bible were talking about, not a charismatic textbook or does the Bible been in in first Thessalonians 519 to 21.

Do not quench the Spirit you put out the spirits fire.

Do not despise prophecies, but test everything. Hold fast what is good. He doesn't say there's going to be a point, prophecy sees. He doesn't say make sure you read this other I gave a cryptic hint that this might happen piece. This is normative with written Scripture is normative for us and in James chapter 5 verses 13 through 15. Please show me where this is changed please show me where in the Bible. This change give me chapter and verse because I'm giving you chapter and verse reach point I'm making explicitly is anyone among you suffering that and prayed that change no. Is anyone cheerful but insane price that change no. Is anyone among you sick call for the elders of the church, let them pray over him, anointing with all the name of the Lord in the prayer of faith will save the six social which Luke's gospel is you save from sin, saving from sickness save from being saved from death. The prayer of faith will make the sick one whole save the sick and the Lord will raise him up, and if he's committed sins would be forgiven.

So every local church should be laying hands on the sick and should be expecting in faith to see healing that's normative there, and it's not even connected with the gift of healing. This is just something we should be seeing and where commanded by Scripture to do this not only sell the word of God tells us explicitly how long these things will last ask the second chapter when the Holy Spirit is poured out in a disciple speaking new languages. What what is Peter say he quotes from Joel and he says this is what God said through Joel in the last days in the ads the words and not found in the Hebrew that he was just on hurricanes. After this, he adds the words in the last days, God says I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, not just the apostles, not just lose all flesh, and your sons and daughters will prophesy, so the outpouring of the Spirit is all flesh in the last days which the period of the last day Scripture is very clear on it from the death and resurrection of Jesus until his return were in the last days. Now the been in them for 2000 years.

Not only so Peter says in ask the second chapter in the 39th verse that with repentance and faith in Jesus. People receive the promise of the Spirit and the promise is to you and your children and all who are far off even as many as the Lord our God will call. Not only so, first Corinthians 1. Seven. As Paul is writing to the believers. He said you are not lacking in any gift. Remember, this is something he praised them for the problem was the abuse. Gifts are wonderful.

The abuse is bad right so he says you are not lacking in any gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ in their minds they could be the generation that sees Jesus return. They didn't know it was good to be 2000 year.

And he saying as you're waiting for this event, telling them by the way. Before that event happens, like 18 1900 years before that event happens or 1600 years before that event happens the great gifts on pricing for will no longer be there You are not like any gift as you await the coming of our Lord and first Corinthians 13 and again during my rebuttal go through point for point right different with all respect to Theodore where Paul says this that tongues will cease. Knowledge is a word of knowledge. This is knowledge will pass away prophecy. When when the perfect when the complete comes in aces this when I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child when I became a man I put childish ways behind me now we see but a poor reflection as in a married then we'll see face-to-face.

So if you say that all of us have a face-to-face intimate relationship with God and we hear his voice. He speaks to us.

We speak to him without any hindrance that was not through mirror. There's no faith involved is we see face-to-face if that's happened then finally be the syntheses but obviously we await that day when we will see him as he is not only so, now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I am not. Do we know God the way he knows us and of course not. This is not happen and this will happen when Jesus returns.

So we have explicit exhortation commands in Scripture that cannot be overridden by some, prophecy or dream or history or anything. The authoritative word says that we should earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy. We should not permit tongues the word of God explicitly tells us that these things will continue until Jesus returns.

And how about this, Romans 12 verse one body we have many members and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us. Let's use them. If prophecy and proportion for faith in assessing a stop by the way, this is different than everything else in the rest of the list. This is a revelatory gifted no and this is his definitive doctrinal book Romans.

So just like some prophecy same words are used elsewhere in the New Testament, for the gift of prophecy and aces. This if prophecy and proportion for faith of service and are serving the one to teach us and is teaching the one who exhorts his expectation of a contributes generosity little leads, with zeal for this acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. Prophecy is just as normal. This be seen in the body as as giving as serving and if he still has a different meaning there will change that.

Who imported that mean he's writing to people that know about prophecy and functioning so ask for when the believers are being persecuted. They pray and this is how the apostles pray ask for versus 29 and 30 Lord look upon their threats and grant your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness while you stretch out your hand to heal and signs and wonders are performed to the name of your holy servant Jesus. Why was that acceptable for them to pray, but it's acceptable for us to pray, where does the Bible even give us a hint that what he was doing there was going stop, look at the end of the book of acts pause on an island, and everyone that comes to is healed on the island that is no hint that this is suddenly going to stop her just fade away or cease again historically know that's not the case.

So how come this is a good prayer to pray at that time but is not a good prayer for us to pray, why is it that the gifts had a certain Jesus glorifying function that touched and transformed many lies in the early church, and that function now ceases. Somehow, and where is there even the slightest that when we have the whole Bible or something. That feeling won't matter anymore. For the prophecy won't matter anymore, or that tongues will be a valuable way of communing with God as close as you speak mysteries in your spirit to God and you edify yourself is not attentive, so I agree with New Testament scholar, Schreiner's is nowhere does the New Testament clearly teach that supernatural gifts have ceased, but I go step further, I would say it clearly, emphatically, definitively says that they will continue until Jesus returns. That's one and two we are called on by God to pursue these zealously earnestly because they are for the glory of God.

And this should be part of our normal church practice by directive of the Lord in Scripture, unless you can give me something definitive clear that contradicts this that overrides this.

This is no longer for today. Thank you. Okay got interrupted.

For now we come back side of the great Q&A between Dr. Zacharias and me the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends welcome to the line of fire this week except Friday that I've done in the past on a range of different subjects and give you excerpts from those debates represented excerpts of this is my debate. 2018. Dr. Theatre Zacharias on the gifts of the spirit. They continue until today or have they ceased. So we just played excerpts from our opening comments again and watch the whole video go to our YouTube channel asked Dr. Brown to see the link to today show and it will tell you to watch the entire video for free online. Now we take you into our Q&A are back and forth so we had opening statements and rebuttals. Now what you get to hear is our back and forth Q&A.

I hope you find it helpful. So II gave you a number of explicit texts when you reference that the end yourself where we are called on to pursue spiritual gifts or first Thessalonians 5 were pulses don't despise prophecy, etc. can you give me any explicit texts that say we should not do these things today. Well again I believe that God told us that the promises went, and he will stop them.

So you say that that's gonna be until the end.

I don't believe that's what borne out by the exegesis of First American's 13 I think that sitting position on the text is not talking about the end of time is not talking about the piracy is not talking about the second coming, or heaven or perfection in the afterlife with death is also about any of those things he's talking about a completed revelatory process right but to repeat my question. Is there an explicit text as I read this I do not read says do not forbid tongues okay and I don't do. That's the right reading of the let's put that aside, earnestly pursue these things, especially prophecy, can you give me a Texas is easily here that saying earnestly desire the spiritual in first with his 12 uses their word because that's what they are doing what they think is best in first Corinthians chapter 14 in that verse, verse 39. He's not saying the same thing as he was saying there, but you say it's it's it's different. And so you can equate them will again this year and I am taken I am sing that design prophecy is what Paul was urging them to do. Does he ever urged me not to. Well, no, I mean he he he doesn't say don't desire prophecy okay so he's does say desire it, and he never says don't desire okay EEE you trying to trick me know. I'm trying to go with the word not on a surrogate not try to trade prophecies and indices when the complete revelation comes then you no longer to seek them because they're not evident in the coming do not. There you don't see. They are what God doesn't intend since God intends for them to stop right so you agree. He never says don't seek them. He does say seek them. He never says don't seek them well. I want to say yes, but would reservation because what you what you implying with that is that they must continue in the same fashion up until the coming of Christ. But I don't believe that's borne out by the tax okay so will connect first Corinthians in the moment but all clear and that he does explicitly say seek. He never explicitly says don't seek second thing asked the second chapter it says that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is on all flesh. The assumption doors and props are not just apostles, etc. and it is in the spirit of the last days. It's words that Paul inserts that are not in the Septuagint are in the Hebrew then asked 230 nice is this promise of the spirit is for you, your children, all that are far off as many as the Lord our God will call.

So when did that change the request is that when it changes the question is understanding its nature see this part of redemptive history. Pentecost is our repeatable event Pentecost as part of the first coming of Christ.

So you can't say oh I have to have a Pentecost in my life. I have to get baptized by the spirit. I have to speak in tongues I have to do these things. That's not how to read it, you have to read it in its redemptive historical nature. It's a one-time thing. It is the establishing of this. The church, the foundational period of the church doesn't mean that that's gonna happen forever after this. It's redemptive historical if you don't see that that's part of the problem, you want everything that the apostles had to experience the same thing, but why don't you sell your property and bring it to the apostles awake. There are no possible wellness scratch that you agree will go sell your property and give me some of that that's what it says there they didn't keep. They think they sold them. They had communal fellowship. Why don't we do that why you pick and choose what you want. So either it's not even a take it all, or you don't take it off because it's redemptive leak historical in its significance. It's not ongoing it's not something that must repeat in everyone's life right so to clarify, yes, bypass the fact you brought in a totally relevant example for Max, for which is not a command and ongoing command, but to reiterate it says this is for the last days that's appearing now that's one to it was the pattern throughout the book of acts that people receive the spirit people spoke in tongues people prophesied superhero and not just the apostles. So that is something that is given a timeframe for the last days as you say, then it says the last days. That's 12 is the pattern in the book of acts. Three. It's the pattern were called on to follow in the epistle, sold, or are we still in the last days that the question is, you still don't understand the nature of acts and yes indeed sons mentioned three times in acts chapter 2 chapter 10 and chapter 19 okay every time Jews are present when Paul talks about tongues. He says they are a sign to the Jews when assigned. From what go back and look at Isaiah 28 verse 11, 1000 I'm going to speak to you with stammering lips tongues of and back then it would've been.

That's an accurate right 701 the invasion of the Assyrians was the Assyrian language not gobbledygook.

What you see today, but that again maybe is irrelevant, but fear the book of acts tells us that this was what happened when the apostles came when the apostles came, they had to go to the Samaritans and put their hands on them.

Otherwise they would receive the spirit and when John the Baptist disciples.

When he asked them about the Holy Spirit. They said we don't even know about it.

Wait a minute.

John's whole ministry was he's going to baptize you in Holy Spirit what you mean. If the judge decides they don't know he was told about something specific something unique and they didn't get it. And yet rebaptize, and if you will, because they didn't know the true every time you see the miraculous in acts.

It's always about the propagation of the word. You see, when the word is what is glorified. The word is what is magnified are. You can't deny that when they filled with the spirit they speak the word boldly okay so when the word is glorified even in acts 1348 and you see this again the explosion of the word is what is major in acts and that revelatory process is pulled right in the midst of the Corinthians would soon end.

And when it does. From that point on, you have faith, hope and love will the other things that remain, what remains pulses despite hope you can exegete that that's okay sometimes send it you are until just back back to the question you acknowledge when the last days which you claim that tongues are only assigned for the Jews so it was us so when Paul asked the Ephesian believers in acts 19. Did you receive the spirit. When you believe how is that a sign for him and when they prophesy, how is that a sign for him. When the question part two initial Jews in the world today, and I give you verifiable examples of tongues is foreign languages spoken supernaturally.

Prophecies verifiable so on what basis then I don't do the expenses them, preventing what you said the godly you gave it desired anything you got our escargot Art so all right but let's let's let's move on. Then to it two different question just for clarity, you mention James five, and it doesn't call for the elders to be healers or have faith for healing, but this is something that were called on to do on a regular basis that someone is sick, they should call for the elders is an expectation when they're anointed with oil and pray for the thrill be healing. So is this something that you believe every church should be practicing in accordance with James chapter 5 that we should all be regularly praying for the sick and that Elder should be people capable of praying faith of the sick to be healed. Doesn't have anything to do with the charismatic short absolutely. So there could be no one with the gift of healing, or perhaps their elders were gifts of healing, there is invention of the charismatic gift of healing and train it's it's not that it's expected that they can pray and pray for healing is this essay that are not same as the gift that's I didn't deny that God can heal and I don't deny that God can heal. In answer to prayer. I believe God continues to be sovereign, and he can answer prayer can send the person to the medical doctor and he can healing. I mean it it it's not how did Richard Malcolm put it like a spiritual mechanism. We just pray and the result happens.

It's not like that that's not how it works okay but just to be for the record if and if you don't answer this, that's fine.

Do you believe that this should be a regular practice that we pray for that. People are sick call for the elders for prayer for for healing and that we should be able praying faith for their healing. That should be properly writing this number one rep to designate what the kind of sickness is because it's possible that it's physical. It's possible also that some physical and so it could be spiritual and then not able to pray because of the condition therein, and if that's the case then yeah maybe. And if they have seen it says that when it will be forgiven now II don't know what the connection with sin and sickness is. I know that sometimes in the New Testament. Let's assume, sometimes wrongly, sometimes we see the connection between sickness and you know sin like first Corinthians, and so you know I can I can say in James. It's always that I don't know but we have to be careful how we apply and when. When discussing spiritual gifts the spiritual gifts are not required of elders. The gift of healing is not required to get the tongues is not required. None of these charismatic gifts are required of elders. So to be an elder in the church is not necessary that you be. I feel it so they don't have the gift of healing and its irrelevant to the question of the charismatic gifts. Okay, angry. John 15 this is a relevant text because all of all of this part of John is where he promises the spirit right wheat. We know that this is one of those texts and of course you you look through verse 12 in chapter 14 about those who believe these things will be done well of course we know that the spirit will be given and in John 15 right end of the chapter it says in in the context of receiving the spirit. The company is coming. It says and you shall also bear witness because you have been with me from the beginning.

This is unique to the apostles and when you find in acts. This same thing is what was promised them so what.

Why don't you accept that that this uniqueness of the apostles. Why do you try to universalize everything that happened to them. Jesus says the very reason that this is happening is because you are with me from the beginning right so I don't apply to you and me the right number one. I'm not trying to be one of the apostles in a trim universalize number two. I am believing what Jesus said that whoever believes in him will do the same works that he did. Number three I noticed that in the book of acts. The second chapter. The outpouring is not just on the apostles, but on sons and daughters and all flesh, before I see people like Stephen Philip in using miraculous gifts. Number five I see the prayer, faith, healing the sick and shut in James five so I'm just trying to follow Scripture so what does this text mean they have unique role to jump in and week out one more segment in the spinal segment he will take you into our closing statements from our plan by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends Michael Brown here we go into the closing statements for my 2018 debate the erucic rightists on the gifts of the spirit are they for today so both of us with our closing statements and after that I'll come back some closing comments right here on the line of fire. Thank you and thank you Theodore for being a gentleman and a scholar tonight.

I appreciate that. So Mark 16 would be great text to get into, but in closing statements.

You can bring in anything new so I won't do that but had I thought about your acceptance of it. I would've loved to use that text as well. You know the times or that being said, I want to reiterate the points that I made that I believe at no point have been rebutted will start with the fact that Paul gives us an exhortation not just in first Corinthians 14, but also in first Thessalonians 5 not to despise prophecies and to rather pursue the gift of prophecy and not tribute tongues.

The argument that historically they happened or didn't happen again does not touch on the Scripture says we heard even in the cross-examination that while there are explicit text telling us do this.

There is no explicit text telling us don't do that. Not only so the idea was not happening anymore. Let's say I come to faith in a jungle in Africa and I'm given a Bible and I begin reading it. I don't know that it stopped I'm going to believe what has written in the Army that it stopped again is highly subjective in their whole books documenting the ongoing evidence of the charismatic gifts through church history, even mention Augustine in the early fifth century have any changes theology because Americans I would say changes theology because of Scripture, but find he did because of the miracles that he saw such number one number two asked the second chapter speaks of an outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh in the period of the last days and says promises to you. The second chapter in your children and all who are far off as many as the Lord our God can call that includes you and me went on that promise.

Same spirit numbered three. We also saw no rebuttal, or even attempted rebuttal to John 1412. These are the words of Jesus, which I take very seriously as as I know each of you do in the midst of our differences, I don't question that for a moment that you're very serious about Scripture John 1412 again Theodore is 10 times better Greek scholar than I am hundred times better. Okay it's his native language. On top of it. John 1412 very simple. The one who believes in me is universal is not qualified. If you going to qualify that you have to qualify the others on the bread of life. Where becomes neoliberal hunger. Whoever believes in me will never thirst.

Got to say that that must be qualified as well before the way God has arrange the body okay and everything intertwined. You have teacher intertwined with miracle workers and those with gifts of healing and you have tongues following administration helps these things are tied in and are an ongoing part of the body. I will also point this out that it's easy to caricature. I could caricature non-charismatics is spiritually dead were skeptics or mockers and say you're upset with us jumping up and down in church on the set with you falling asleep in church that would be unfair. Caricature in the same way as someone's been in the charismatic movement for over 45 years. I can write whole books about abuses. I can also point you to the finest people I know on the planet devoted to Jesus living holy godly lives. In fact world surveys of Christians were done which found interestingly, that those who hear true charismatic or Pentecostal faith were more likely to hold to the authority of Scripture more likely to read the Bible on a daily basis. More likely, to pray and more likely to share their faith. So there are abuses, but let's not get into negative caricatures lent us look. Number one the word number two at fruit that remains. So if we go back to Scripture.

And here's what I appeal to you to do afterwards. Go back to the Bible get alone. Read the Scriptures see what God has commanded see what he is called for. See what he is promised and unless you can find something explicit that says it's not to be practiced today and continue to practice continue to believe and in less you know God fully, the way he knows you and have a face-to-face relationship with him. Even that Moses spoke with the Lord as a man speaks to his friend back and forth then though there's still more to come. We have not yet reached that day. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here for listening to us ramble on theologians often talk a lot and sometimes they communicate. Sometimes they don't. But appreciate Michael coming and thank you for coming and allowing us to have this exchange Peter, who was one of the apostles and who was privileged he was one of the inner three in a circle was was privileged to see certain things that not all the others got to see one of those things was the amazing transfiguration of Jesus when they went up on that mountain and you recall the incident you know Jesus is is revealing he's not is not adding anything to himself. He is revealing through the flesh. Some of the glory which elsewhere it says he had with the father before he was incarnated. He never lost that glory and navigated up. He never abandoned that he concealed it on that instant he let some of it manifests to such a degree that that back in the first century. They talked about the clothing being white, brighter than the sun. This kind of language well. Peter was so taken with this. He said went when Moses and Elijah showed up. He said that's that's make booths right, let's let's just a few.

This is a mountaintop experience. This is wonderful.

You know, and they were discussing his exigencies. His departure his death.

In other words, okay, and Peter had that experience in, and I think that that's probably one of the greatest experiences that the apostles were privileged to have when he writes in his second letter. However, he mentions this experience and it's a phenomenal experience. It's an experience of something so amazing that we would say that that a fire in front adjusting that that would be enough. That would be. I could be so close to God. I could be so close to Christ that would be wonderful and get here is what Peter says.

He says, in contrast to this, which is not a fable. It's the truth. In contrast to that we have a more sure word of prophecy. We have a more sure word in consort. This is what is important not the revelation not the experience, not this phenomenon not this miraculous transfiguration of Jesus.

But what you have here when Erasmus, who published the first New Testament in 1516 he wrote a preface and near the end of that preface.

He said that when you read the accounts of the writers, the gospel writers in the letters of the New Testament. He said this you will know Christ better than if you were to let your very eyes on him. That's the estimate that he gave of the Scriptures. That's why he labored long and hard to get the original text out there so people could read it. Some say Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched. If it wasn't for Erasmus Luther wouldn't have read excuse. There is a so that you by faith. The one who is righteous by faith or their figures. They could be status existed at the one who is righteous by faith will live. That is what caused the Reformation and the Reformation was a great period of time in the history of the church where they came up with this slogan that Michael Michael's been using so let Scripture, but so the Scripture is not slogan you can just hang onto. It's not just a belief that you can say I affirm it.

It is a way of life. Eating is saying in regards to all the phenomena that can or happy nor ever shall be. I will always stand on the side of the word of God experience proves nothing. Jesus said if they don't believe Moses and the prophets who won't believe even if someone was worse with that and they try to kill Lazarus when he was raised there you have it, my friends, I ask you to trust in the full sufficiency of Scripture and to learn from the original if you can comment right.

Let me remind you friends that on our YouTube channel. Also, our Facebook page. So if you're watching either Facebook or YouTube UC description where it is a description of today's show, and with it a link and that link will take you to the complete debate. You can watch it for free. Our YouTube channel or just go to ask Dr. ask ADR and type in Zechariah.

It is see AC a IAR IDS. I think that's it type that in and you'll be able to watch the whole debate for free. Hope you find it helpful. The excerpts that we played we can be doing this with different debates tomorrow, Wednesday, Thursday as well and I encourage you if you're confused on issues to read the word read the word read the word pray and ask God for insight.

Yes, different people have different opinions but you always have to ask yourself in Scripture related debates who is better representing plain and obvious and overwhelming sense of Scripture, so dig in and say father I want everything you have for me so I can serve you glorify Jesus friends, remember to sign up for our emails and asked Brown another program powered by the Truth Network

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