A Wake-Up Call from the Persecuted Church

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Friends, do you know what's happening to our brothers and sisters in different parts of the world this very day?

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I received a very disturbing email from a pastor in Pakistan a couple days ago. It's got me thinking a lot about the state of the church around the world, about persecution of believers. We've talked about this many times, but it's important we talk about it again today to stir us, to awaken us, to help us to realize the situations we have, the freedoms that we do have in America, and how we respond to opposition.

Michael Brown here. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Great to be with you, and here's what we're going to do. I'm going to share my heart, share some scripture with you, share some things happening in different parts of the world. I'm going to take some minutes to do that, and then phone lines are going to be open like we do on Friday. Anything you want to talk about, any question you have, any subject of any kind, 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884.

If you've listened to a past broadcast and want to take issue with me on something, if you've read one of my articles and have a question or differ, by all means, all subjects, all calls, welcome today, 866-348-7884. We have one of our fire missionaries working sacrificially in Nigeria, single woman. She's been there for years working with the poorest of the poor, helping provide better education for the children. That's what she does. She's an educator. She works with local teachers, schools. I'm talking about where kids are sitting on the floor, where you don't even have a chalkboard, where you barely have a textbook, and just bettering their lives and proving the education. And she's outwardly, overtly, unashamedly Christian and working in Muslim villages and others and saying, hey, you know the best education is in our school.

So if your kid comes, it's a Christian school, but they're sending their kids because of the better education. She's on the edge of danger many times. And let's just take a look at this headline that she sent me from Nigeria.

Let's get this up on the screen here. Update it. Eight killed as bandits attacked church kidnap others in Kaduna. So that was from earlier this month, just a few days ago. She told me that in the reports that she had seen, there were 200 people killed. She was murdered, cold blooded, many of them Christians. This is going on on a regular basis. We got an urgent email from her.

Please pray a pastor friend of theirs was kidnapped for ransom by Islamic terrorists, Boko Haram terrorists, whoever they were exactly, and to pray for his safe return and try to work out the details to get him back. And then she emails a few days later, thank God he's back. He's got a gash in his head. He's missing a few fingers, but he's good.

It's like, that's good. Yeah, he's not dead. He wasn't killed.

Just a gash in his head, missing a few fingers. And that was a great victory. And they're going on holding onto their faith. So I get this email from a pastor in Pakistan.

And I met this brother when he was in the States a few years ago. He's got a thriving church there. He had written a book about some of the blasphemy laws and how they're used against Christians. Basically, you just make an accusation that a Christian blasphemed Muhammad, that they spoke against the Quran. You get someone else to corroborate that.

And the Christians have very few rights, especially in more rural areas and certain parts of the country. And that's it. You're gone. You're going to be sentenced. You're going to be found guilty. You're going to be thrown in prison.

You might be killed. It's just a very difficult situation. So on the one hand, they have certain liberties.

On the other hand, there's constant persecution that they deal with. He wrote a book about it that I endorsed. So he emails me the other day.

I'm not telling you where he is in Pakistan for obvious reasons. And he said, please pray, please pray. He said, a young lady in our church, just 16 years old, she was just kidnapped by Muslims for conversion.

So what does that mean? They will kidnap, he said, it's 25 to 30 girls a month in the country are getting kidnapped. So basically on a daily basis, Christian girls, some Muslim guy wants to marry them for whatever reason they want them, kidnap them, and then either threaten to harm their family or them and force them to convert.

And then they appear before the court and say, I'm now a Muslim. And so now you weren't kidnapped and all that goes away. So he said, this is a girl from my church.

He sends me a picture of her. He said, she was a member of our choir. She was at our 5 30 AM service this morning and she was just kidnapped. And I put out a prayer call on Facebook. We had thousands of people responding. We're praying, we're praying. It got a tremendous response. And I heard nothing from him two days.

So I reached out to him again today. He said, brother, it's, he said, my heart is broken. He said, she appeared before the court. She was trembling. And she said, she's now a Muslim. So I don't know what they did to her or how they threatened her family. And she was obviously under, under pressure, even in that moment. And he said, it's happening regularly. I don't think he meant in his district. I think he meant in the country that it's happening pretty much on a daily basis, but this friends, this is reality picture.

That's your daughter picks that your sister, that this is reality. This is what people are facing around the world. And in many of these countries where the persecution is most intense, the church is growing. Here, let me show you something that Richard Wurmbrandt said. Richard Wurmbrandt, who was tortured for his faith, tortured for Christ, not only an internationally best-selling book translated into dozens and dozens of languages. When I met with pastor Wurmbrandt some years ago, I said, is it true that your book is the most translated book written in the 20th century?

And he smiled. He goes, no, he goes, no, Agatha Christie novels are, but his was, I think the most translated religious book written in the 20th century distributed widely. He said this, persecution has always produced a better Christian, a witnessing Christian, a soul winning Christian. Communist persecution has backfired and produced serious dedicated Christians such as are rarely seen in free lands.

These people cannot understand how anyone can be a Christian and not want to win every soul they meet. When you are in a situation of real opposition, when it's costly to follow Jesus, when there's a price to be paid for being a disciple, you get a different quality person. What is the commitment level of someone who becomes a Navy Seal versus the commitment level of someone who goes into the military because they're going to get their education paid for when they get out? Obviously, night and day. What's the commitment level of someone who may lose everything, may lose their job, may lose their family, may lose their life coming to faith versus someone who enjoys services at a church and the pastor is really good and funny and easy to listen to and it's good parking.

You can get in and out within an hour and a quarter and a great children's program. What's the different level of commitment involved? I think you get my point. Then our American gospel where it's pretty much the greatest goal, God's greatest goal is that I'm happy and anything that does not contribute to my happiness is therefore not from God whereas the biblical message is that God's goal is our holiness and what does not contribute to our holiness is not from God and obviously true holiness will produce true and lasting happiness. Happiness but our what's in it for me gospel bypass the cross gospel produces shallow believers. Decades ago I said many of us are so fat we can't get out the church door spiritually speaking. We just gorge ourselves love this great teaching this is cool the latest best this that and we're not in spiritual shape at all. I wonder what would happen if there was a real cost attached to following Jesus in America.

How many would fall away and how many would prove to be false converts many parts of the world they don't have to ask that question because there is a cost associated and you don't get in unless you're serious you don't make that commitment unless you're serious because it's too costly. Many Americans will say well then why would I follow Jesus you know because they're following him because he prospers them and does good for them and promotes them and makes them famous and you know satisfies their desires and if there's a cost involved take up your cross follow me well why would I want to follow him that that's how far astray much of our American gospel message has gone. Look at this quote from like like Tantius he is or I'm probably mispronouncing it like Tantius what about third century apologist early defender of the faith he said there is another cause why God permits persecutions to be carried out against us that the people of God may be increased so the more that there is persecution the more it produces believers it wakes up the church.

Look I wrote an article early December but I didn't release it until January why a Biden presidency could be good for the church of America I wholeheartedly oppose so much of the direction of the Biden administration I believe that there are real assaults to our liberties and things that could be very negative and dangerous for America under the Biden administration but I also believe it could help wake up the church instead of us looking to the White House we have to look to God and there's more of a cost associated with following Jesus. Look at what Paul wrote Romans 8. Romans chapter 8 a famous passage of scripture and one that we're often comforted by the spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God we love that but how about the next verse and if children also heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Messiah if indeed we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him for I consider the sufferings of this present time not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us.

If we suffer with him we'll be glorified with him. Look at the words of Jesus. Matthew chapter 10. Matthew the 10th chapter Jesus sending out his disciples to preach beginning verse 21 brother will betray brother to death and a father as child and children will rise up against their parents and have them put to death and you will be hated by all because of my name but the one who endures to the end will be saved whenever they persecute you in one city flee to the next. Amen I tell you you will never finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes. A disciple is not above his teacher nor a slave above his master it is enough for the disciple to become like his teacher and the slave like his master if they call the head of the house Beelzebul how much more the members of his household. Friends these are sobering words this is Jesus telling us that if the world hated him the world persecuted him the world killed him the world defamed him the world slandered him we can expect the same treatment from a hostile world it should not surprise us in the least. Friends I'm not looking for persecution I'm not trying to stir up persecution I appreciate the liberties we have here in America but friends we better use them and we better get back to a biblical gospel otherwise there could be real real trouble ahead. All right a few more scriptures and we're going to go to your call so anything you want to ask me talk to me about phone lines are open 866-343. spiritual revolution here again is Dr. Michael Brown. You know friends I've had the privilege of working with the church around the world not in every country but in many countries and very closely in some countries where there's a lot of persecution where there's danger where we can't even go and preach in certain areas because of potential danger I've had threats against me in other countries one country I was going to speak at and we were told that there was chatter you know the security folks national security picked it up and told this national pastor from whom I was speaking in another country that that there were potential threats that were going to come against me from islamic terrorists but I'm talking about people on the ground I'm I'm in and I'm out right I'm talking about people that live in these countries and and friends who've lost their lives who have been imprisoned one of our own grads we can't still to this day even though it's what almost seven years we can't give the details of this because it would endanger other workers but one of our own grads was martyred overseas by islamic terrorists years ago because of the fruitfulness of the ministry that they were doing friends this is reality this is reality situation in china is getting very very bleak very very difficult there real heavy government crackdowns the church continues to grow but real challenges and then countries like north korea for years that's been the the worst rated country in the world the most dangerous country for a christian to live and and the inhuman treatment of christians there is beyond imagination and yet people still follow jesus and and it reveals the ugliness it reveals the demonic nature of the opposition the darkness of the opposition and and jesus shines all the more in the midst of this eight six six three four eight seven eight eight four before i go to the phones just a couple more verses look at what jesus says in john chapter 15 he's been talking to his disciples he's told them that he has chosen them here to be apostles john chapter 15 beginning in verse 18 jesus says this if oh that's matthew just there we go if the world hates you know that it has hated me before you so jesus speaking to us telling us this if you were of the world the world would love you as its own but you are not of the world since i've chosen you out of the world therefore the world hates you remember the word i spoke to a servant is not greater than his master if they persecuted me they will persecute you also if they kept my word they will keep yours also and then one more passage second timothy chapter three second timothy chapter three and paul is discussing his own life verse 10 right into timothy you however closely followed my teaching matter of life purpose faithfulness patience love perseverance as well as persecutions and sufferings that happened to me in antioc iconium and lystra what persecutions i endured and the lord rescued me from them all indeed all who desire to live a godly life in messiah ishua and messiah jesus will be persecuted but evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse deceiving and being deceived there it is all who desire to live a godly life in christ jesus will be persecuted we don't look for it we don't try to provoke it we seek to be peacemakers rather than troublemakers but if we really walk with jesus the world will oppose us it will always be the case oh we'll receive favor we'll have people who are enemies who become our friends certain times the government will honor and respect what we do depending on how god fearing the government is but the spirit of the world the spirit of the age will oppose us face it accept it don't try to make your views palatable to to a hostile world so as you so as to avoid the persecution of the cross in other words sometimes we want to present things in such a way that when we're done no one even knows what we said i've watched some christian leaders on tv sometimes they'd ask a point-blank question when they're done with their answer i have no idea what they believe or where they stand it's like well yeah you want to avoid controversy but you didn't make a statement paul said if if the the trumpet sounds an uncertain note tone you know who's going to respond was that a warning were they telling us is danger coming or everything's safe for was that just someone playing the trumpet no there's going to be clarity on our message we use wisdom grace but there's going to be clarity and we will be hated for it accept it i don't want to be hated because i'm obnoxious i don't want to be hated because i'm foolish i don't want to be hated because i'm a hypocrite i don't want to be hated because i'm insensitive but if i'm hated for jesus that's an honor that's an honor that's an honor because the world is treating me the way it treated him all right let's go the phones eight six six three four truth let's go to helen no we're not going to helen i'm going to start there but we're not all right tell you what just another word or two and then we will we'll go over to the phones uh totally completely changing subjects for a moment 100 shift 100 shift okay so we've been talking about persecution talking about stating the american church talking about the watered down american gospel read my books how saved are we among others that address law this is going all the way back to 1990 okay totally changing subjects on thursday of this week we are releasing a major statement it is a prophetic standards statement this has not been done on this level before there are plenty of other ministries organizations those involved in prophetic ministry who have these standards and guidelines and things like that this is different this is different this is going to represent wide parts of the charismatic pentecostal church in america and in other nations it is not just prophetic people signing it but people in all different aspects of what we would call quote five-fold ministry all right and uh it is uh it's going to be released thursday we'll give you the website on thursday as well we've got oh somewhere in the mid-80s in terms of people signing on from denominational heads to people recognized as prophetic leaders to pastors to evangelist different ones and it is in response to the debacle of the failed trump prophecies and the failed covert prophecies and many candidates saying we need to have accountability and things like that so that's that's what's going to be happening on thursday and uh okay one so so what we'll share more about that we'll give you the website if you're a pastor leader ministry leader and you want to sign on after this we'll have our initial signers but then if you want to sign on afterwards then uh by all means uh you'll be able to do that and add your name so we could have hundreds or thousands of signers over a period of time but we felt several of us worked on this then then got input from other leaders so it is an anonymous statement in other words it's not my statement or colleague's statement this is the work of a number of leaders together being put out saying there need to be standards there needs to be accountability we want to have freedom in the spirit we want to cultivate life in the spirit we want to cultivate life in the spirit we want to to have an atmosphere there can be spontaneous ministry and the prophetic gifts are recognized the ministry of the prophet is recognized while at the same time calling for accountability calling for godly standards calling for ways for any believer to evaluate things calling for how do we address the internet phenomenon where i can just say i'm a prophet i got this word and just put it out and it's unfiltered it's untested and you don't know who i am and just how to deal with these kinds of things so that there can be more righteousness and and less reproach because look here's the deal to all my non-charismatic friends to all of you who don't believe that prophecy or tongues are for today but but we're together on other issues and you listen and we're in this together in the lord i feel bad that you get hurt because of the areas of some prominent charismatics because a lot of people just see that out there and they think the church or christians or evangelicals or these believers whatever it is it makes everybody look bad now of course the sword cuts both ways there could be a scandal among baptists and then charismatics get blamed but but right now i'm saying that it we are as charismatic leaders grieved over these things many of us for years have worked for standards of accountability and and many others have have modeled those within their own ministries and organizations you just need a few rogue voices with enough prominence and and some of they're just way out and some that are blatantly false prophets they're just deceivers and others are just deeply deceived themselves but they make everything look bad so we're saying this is not who we are this is these are not our standards this is not how we operate i'm also going to be putting on a statement this is going to be me personally but i may do it in conjunction with other ministry leaders and i'll probably save most of this for thursday but there are reports now that are just getting out there um widely in the media not not just um in the jewish world but i've seen your post reporting this and others that there was allegedly a gentile christian with his wife working in ultra-orthodox parts of jerusalem with allegedly forged documents claiming that they were actually jewish so they were secret believers who went in to missionize claiming falsely to be jewish when the wife died of cancer the community of ultra-orthodox jews helped raise tens of thousands of dollars for the family only to find out that they're allegedly allegedly there with forged documents claiming to be jews and they're not that's very grievous that's very grievous and i want to say as an international leader in jewish apologetics and reaching out to our jewish people for salvation unashamedly that that's not how we do it that's not who we are maybe one thing if someone is a secret believer they they come to faith in other words they're in that ultra-orthodox community or or you know from the islamic community or something and they come to faith and they're just keeping their faith in themselves secretly for a time until they're ready to come out okay that's one thing i understand that you know and it's very difficult and that they're weighing losing everything etc it's another thing to go in claiming to be something you're not and it totally falls away forged documents i that's grievous friends we want to put a statement on that's not who we are all right we'll be right back it's the line of fire with your host dr michael brown get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four truth here again is dr michael brown thanks friends for joining us on the line of fire eight six six three four truth so we've opened up the phone lines for any subject of any kind yesterday didn't take a single call we just focused on some intense issues in the society around us talked a lot about persecution and the challenges faced by believers around the world and now ready to take some calls so let's go over to seth in linear north carolina welcome to the line of fire thanks for calling hey dr brown hey honor thank you just want to say i'm a pastor in north carolina and i appreciate the work you're doing for the body of christ all over the world and i guess you kind of hit on a subject touched my heart a few minutes ago about the persecution of the church all over the world because i've done overseas mission works for years now and i get messages from different pastors of all the things they go through every day but i was going to ask you do you have any idea how we could wake up the american church today to really get them to open their eyes to what's going on around us all right so let's let's just talk about this on a very practical level you're a pastor yourself right yes sir okay so how do you balance in your own congregation trying to wake up stir challenge get people aware of what's happening without getting where it's like every week is is sounding the alarm and and in other words there's just everyday life ministry people going through challenging times how do you personally balance that as a pastor trying to sound the alarm and light a fire well at the same time recognizing you've got people hurting and trying to do pastoral shepherding ministry how do you work that out i try to make it known what's going on around us in the world that there's a world you know beyond america and the body body of Christ goes way well beyond america and i try to also encourage people to really pray that's really been on my heart here lately is to stir have a prayer revival and stir and pray more because i believe prayer is going to call the next great awakening for america that's kind of been my focus this year is getting back to repentance and seeking god but it's just like i know this like a scooper's been over the church here lately people's not really paying attention to some things going on i just kind of wanted to get your input on that yeah anything i could do more myself yeah absolutely and uh i appreciate what you're doing in prayers obviously at the heart and soul of all of it so that's the first thing that we have to give ourselves more to secret prayer you know acts the sixth chapter the apostles raised up the the ones to wait on the tables so they could give themselves to the ministry of prayer and the word so a lot of us are so busy in our own lives my my weakness is over committing and overworking and and i have to make sure that i pull back to be with the lord and to seek him first and foremost for greater fire passion presence of god in my own life hearing his voice more clearly and then praying for others so we start there you know that old prayer of gypsy smith when he was asked about how to pray for revival which is i draw a circle on the ground i stand inside the circle and then i ask god to revive everything in the circle so we we start there key leaders that that i work with you know i would i would get them praying with you you know your leadership team or others that are that are really key and then uh read read stuff on revival uh watch stuff on revival uh you know you can just get online and look for lectures by j edwin or uh or or you know a great revival historian of last generation and it's just very matter of fact just going through things yes that's what's supposed to happen so thing books that'll stir your heart on revival videos lectures videos of action god moving so it's not just sounding the alarm about how crazy this world is around us and how messed up things are that you have to do periodically you gotta say hey look hate to do it but let's talk about what's happening our school systems here let's talk about what's happening and they you know it's not a political thing it's a spiritual thing so you wake people up but then give a vision of revival a vision of what god can do and get people hungry get people hungering and thirsting for more and then doing what you're doing is super important talking about the church in other parts of the world because again when you travel overseas as i have you know this it it does something to you you you see a reality like stuff i always believed it was things that when i read about persecuted church in decades past when i read the bible itself it's like yeah this is normal this is sacrifice and opposition and take up your cross that's that's normal and then when i would go overseas and work with missionaries who were risking their lives for the gospel and work with native believers where it's just a given they might die for following jesus like yeah i knew it was supposed to be like this i knew that was the the real deal and then you you you bring back that deeper quality what we can't do and i it's something you've got to be very sensitive to i have to be as a traveling speaker and then with daily radio then you as a local pastor you can't beat people over the head all the time like something's wrong something's missing we're not doing it there are those times when the holy spirit comes with an intense repentance call and people are on their faces weeping and repenting but otherwise there's that call but then the vision there's more there's more that god wants to do and that stirs people in a positive way as well uh so those are some of the things awakening to what's happening in the world around us so that people feel the urgency uh sharing the world around us i mean here in america the crazy situation that we're facing and that we're in uh talking about believers in other parts of the world to inspire us not condemn us uh creating a deeper hunger for more and then those that are hungry and thirsty hey let's go after god so you give the invitation to go deeper you don't condemn those that don't want to or that aren't at that place yet but you keep giving that opportunity hey we're just going to open the building and pray and we're going to be we're going to watch you know some some revival messages or some services you know and we're going to open the building if you want to come great and then if something starts to ignite then you breathe on it you breathe on it and and um those are those are keys but to the extent you carry that in your own life it's going to be contagious so can i just pray with you seth yes sir that'll be an honor sir yeah and i hope those i mean i didn't tell you anything new but hopefully just hearing it together it's helpful lord i pray for my brother we pray from right now for that fire for that passion for the hunger for that thirst for a greater awareness of who you are and a greater desire to know you and experience you and make you known so others can know you and experience you may he become a flaming fire may it spread to others may his church become a center of revival and visitation may hunger rise in this congregation in this region and everyone listening that's of like heart may it be so father in jesus name amen bless you seth let us know how we can be of help to you in in the future appreciate it eight six six three four truth uh let's go to gloria and san marcus texas welcome to the line of fire hi good good afternoon um my question is pretty i hope it's simple anyway um in genesis three verse one it says that the now the nakashas more uh some versions will kind of say it's say it's more crafty than any other beast of the field but the same word our room is kind of used in the province that's prudent and then if you look also at when it says that the men in his life were naked they were not they were not ashamed it still comes up at the same word our room so how does can you kind of give a little more light to the the hebrew context of the word as the why in some places it means naked in another place why does it yeah prudence and in another place it means crafty right so they're they're they're two different words the word for naked is our home and then in a plural form it would it would change to our meme but uh naked is a different word so that's that's totally separate it's it's followed by telling us that the the nakash was a room there's a play on words there uh but no those are those are two separate words uh and just like in english you have wind and you have wind right they're spelled exactly the same but pronounced differently and you only know which is which by context right if i said okay what what does that pronounce that w-i-n-d you'd say well it could be wind it could be wind but in context it's it's totally clear uh the wind is blowing really hard you don't say the wind is blowing really hard or there's a real wind in the road here so in context even without vowels you would know one is naked that's that's clear um the other word uh it it is two sides of it in other words the same word a room can be used for crafty it can be used for kind of skillful and adept in a negative way or crafty but the positive side of it having having a certain wisdom or a jointness so if if i'm looking say at a uh a lexicon and i'll just pull this up for a second you'll see that it comes out of kind of the same root concept you know you have words that can be used for persuade or seduce or deceive and it's the same hebrew word and it's it's all a matter of of context so that's the same thing that's the same word and and it could be a you know you're really sharp it could be negative or it could be positive and um so if if i look for example genesis three one um and and the serpent there uh a room yeah cunning uh or clever those are the two definitions that a dictionary will give a cunning versus clever so two sides of the same coin and and um it it's a good word used in good context and a bad word used in bad context but but even there the serpent's very clever right clever but because this is satan speaking through the cleverness is used for bad purposes so we're using the cleverness for good purposes or bad purposes that would be the basic question does that make sense yeah it makes a lot of sense and plus it clears up a lot of things because i have watched an orthodox rabbi talk about how the word a room is the same word that is used to describe uh the man in his life being naked and he tried to put it into a context where he was saying that it should have read that the snake was also more naked than all of them um obviously i know where he was going i don't kind of agree with it because even where he ended up he would have ended up saying something like okay um you know the the messiah is the same as the the the nakashas yeah all yeah all that all that is yeah he may have that may be completely madrasic homiletical and again one is arom which is naked then in plural the form becomes arumin but the singular is arom so it's arom versus arum and originally they're two two separate roots they may be written the same now but they're two separate roots so that was just somebody homiletically preaching and trying to make some spiritual application but without foundation uh you got christian preachers who do that you get rabbis that do that but uh yeah with without without scriptural foundation all right hey thank you for the the call we'll be right back with your questions it's the line of fire with your host activist author international speaker and theologian dr michael brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four truth here again is dr michael brown these friends for joining us on the line of our eight six six three four truth is the number to call and let's go straight back to the phones uh we'll start with michael in corpus christi texas welcome to the line of fire hi dr brown can you hear me okay yeah i can uh sir just recently i saw the movie the pianist you know with adrian brody the movie about the holocaust and i watched these movies you know several of them and uh anyway i have to ask dr brown i know i know we lost you know approximately six million jews but i still have to ask the question just how hated were they uh if i was a citizen in nazi germany 1942 whether i was german or maybe even a jew and i decided to kill another jew just for the fun of it would i be prosecuted would german police arrest me would nazis come to my defense and say hey he did the right thing i mean i'm just curious just how hated were they were there regular police in nazi germany right so it's a question that's not normally asked because because the idea that the the populate the populace as a whole was not as fully aware what was going on but of course laws were being passed so here's the deal to my knowledge it was not widespread for people to just go out and kill a jew because they wanted to because the nazis were still all about law and order right so they were going to do what they were going to do and you'd still be breaking the law even even if you killed someone that they hated and despised or killed someone on the way to the concentration camp that wasn't your role that's their role so with their law and order system no that was not happening a lot uh before or during the holocaust now jews were increasingly demonized and as a result of world war one restrictions were put on germany that were so unbearable because of germany being the aggressor in world war one that it almost made a a revolt against that inevitable and as their economy was was tanking and and then hitler was rising we got to blame somebody so the jews became looked at as the parasites and were increasingly blamed um and that could be one reason why the populace did not fight back on their behalf more but a big issue was just the the fear tactics of the nazis that you stand up against them and and and you're going to suffer a horrific death or your family will or or torture beyond imagination so okay so regular citizens still couldn't take the launch of their own hands no not not to my knowledge not to my knowledge now however i want to go further uh post holocaust like a country like poland for example um i i know these accounts firsthand i mean i met someone that this was his his own situation he's he's with the lord now uh but i met him and his and his son is actively in jewish ministry to this day so this happened in other countries i don't know how much it happened in germany but i know it happened in other european countries where after the holocaust jewish survivors went back to their old villages and in some cases their homes were still empty or or they were able to stay somewhere they and and the the surrounding people like catholic neighbors in poland were so incensed that these jews had survived that they went out to try to kill them so for sure you you did have that kind of thing going on that the for example in poland the eyewitnesses would testify that say in an easter service that that the priests would so incite the people uh about what these evil jews did and killed christ that they would then go out and and just in a mob kill jews the pogroms in russia and no police would arrest them huh uh no generally speaking no the pogroms in russia at the turn of the last century would be the same kind of thing they'd often be provoked by the religious authorities and go out and wreak havoc and the police would basically look the other way to the extent it happened in germany from my understanding it was less so because of the iron fist of the nazis and because of them carrying out their murderous plans but in other countries jews were fair game at different times tragically yeah okay i was just curious so so germany they it was their role they would possibly uh arrest ordinary citizens and tell them hey that's for us to deny you yeah again i don't know i am i have not in the holocaust studies that i've done over the decades i have not read about that phenomenon a lot i have not okay heard it or seen it therefore my question right yeah yeah yeah it definitely is sir but my assumption again is that with the nazis doing the death work and your average german citizen more or less looking the other way while it was happening um either not knowing about it or just choosing i'm looking the other way something being complicit that they didn't just go around killing jews random to my knowledge it was more ss nazis uh carrying out their their murderous acts with the approval of the people or with the silence of the people hey thanks for asking uh let's see all right we'll go to carrie north carolina greg welcome to the line of fire hello hello hey dr brown how you doing i have a question about that graph 5 yeah in relation to the scroll of the role that is listed in there yeah i wanted to see what that represents a buddy young brother of mine and the lord was asking me about it and i was like i really don't know i didn't know if it was uh like a dual relating to the future prophecy like during revelation or if it's just in their time of um zechariah's time or what yeah it's it's uh i'm sitting here smiling when i saw what i saw zechariah 5 i thought yeah that it's it's a difficult passage um it seems to be pointing to a judgment that came in the past um so he looks up he sees a flying scroll uh it's the curse which goes out over the whole land for everyone who was stolen as for as is forbidden on one side the scroll has gone unpunished everyone is sworn falsely as is forbidden on the other side of it has gone unpunished it seems to be speaking of a of a judgment that came in the ancient world now prophecy being what it is it can often have a dual meaning it can often have a future fulfillment but it's it's not clearly spelled out it's not one of these things where it's like i can tell you here's where this happened in history here's where the thing fulfilled it's much more uh nebulous and ambiguous so um again like when you have judgment on ancient babylon that really happened in the happened in the ancient world but then revelation hints and points to a future destruction on the future babylon right so sometimes these passages you say okay here's how it would have applied in zechariah's day and we see a future fulfillment but i see this primarily as something that that applied to to his day or to the generations around that time as opposed to a future prophecy i know a lot of us when we read the bible we're thinking of all like it's it's all for me today but much of it was written to the people back then and then we learn from that so it applies to us as we learn from it and uh yeah it's not just a young believer asking that and you wondering about it we all scratch our heads over some of these because there's not more information given to us so we really don't know what the scroll of the role represents then right no no not beyond what that that it's a word of judgment in other words that he sees here's a judgment from the lord going out the prophets yeah on that level for example you can look in ezekiel 2 and 3 and ezekiel is is given us a scroll by the lord to eat and he eats it and it's the message of the lord uh so sometimes the prophets would receive a message and they'd see something written on a scroll uh revelation the 10th the 10th chapter the same thing with the apostle john that he that he eats the scroll uh it's again prophecies of doom and judgment about different kingdoms the same with ezekiel jeremiah chapter 15 16 he says your words were found and i did eat them so the word the prophetic word he gets metaphorically he eats it takes it in so that's all it is in other words this prophetic revelation it'd be like i hold the billboard in front of you saying the lord says america must repent and you see that billboard and now it just enters into you that's how it is with the scroll so that i can tell you about the scroll in terms of how prophets would receive messages this being one of them you know in a vision but beyond that all that's all that we know of it is what's written there so it was some judgment going forth for sinners at that time okay thank you very much you are you are very welcome eight six six three four two let me just step back for a minute say this uh i devoted years obviously to learning ancient languages and culture background and especially for old testament less so for new testament uh but there's still only so much that we know in other words there are passages that remain difficult there are passages that say we don't know exactly what the hebrew meant here or the greek or we're not exactly sure of the historical context that now it's not a lot but it does occur you know there's a verse in ezekiel about the people put the branch to their nose there's a lot of speculation as to what that means we're in zephaniah the priests who leap over the threshold i think i have a good idea of what that means but it's there's speculation with it there are things like that that as much as you study background culture or even early church and background or or ancient jewish world for background to the new testament and my friend craig keener is probably the world's leading expert on backgrounds to the new testament things like that it's not the leading expert one of the leading experts and and there's a ton like i'll ask him a question there's like a ton of data ton of information yet still there's speculation not sure about this could be this could be that but the key thing is we're reading the word father speak to me give me insight how do i apply this to my life and and for the most part it's not from you know verse here or there that challenges we can okay i can get something here maybe there's a genealogy or just a detailed description somewhere but the great bulk of what we're reading will be able to prayerfully make application in our lives we'll be back with you tomorrow friends remember to visit us at askdrbrown.org askdrbrown.org you get my emails if not sign up today you don't know what you're missing god bless you another program powered by the truth network