The Lifechanging Power of a Gospel Debate

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We're going to take a break from politics. We're going to take a break from secular world events happening around us and talk about debating and how God can use debates. So, debates can be destructive, distracting.

They can be all kinds of divisive, but God can use debates, and there's a lot to learn from this. I think you're going to be fascinated. We've got some really neat clips we're going to be playing for you as we take you into some past debates that I've done. And at the bottom of the hour, I'm going to make an announcement, something I am really, really excited about, really, really looking forward to. Can't wait to share it with you.

So, I'm going to make that announcement at the bottom of the hour. If you've been stymied with a question, maybe talking to someone who doesn't believe what you believe, maybe talking to someone from another faith, maybe talking to someone who used to believe what you believe, and it's thrown you, or you don't know the best way to answer the question, give me a call. Maybe we can help you. 866-34-TRUTH, 866-34-87884. So, most of you know my own story. I'm a Jewish believer in Jesus. So, that means out of the gate from day one, I was talking to family members, friends, rabbis, others that didn't believe what I believed. And when my dad saw my life was changed, I was a heavy drug user ages 14 to 16, radically born again at the age of 16. My dad's thrilled to see me off drugs, but he says, Michael, we're Jews.

We don't believe in Jesus. So, he brings me to meet the local rabbi. I'm 16. The local rabbi at that time was maybe about 27. He was fresh out of Jewish Theological Seminary, brilliant man, and took a real personal interest in me for years. We've still been in touch now almost 50 years later. But he took a real personal interest in me and would talk to me about what I believed and would gently challenge it and then sometimes challenge it more aggressively.

And I didn't have the answers then. I mean, he's fresh out of the Jewish Theological Seminary. He's been studying Hebrew since he's a little boy.

He's a brilliant guy. And I'm just reading the Bible for myself for the first time and reading it in English and reading it in the King James, the Bible that I was given when I came to faith, still have that Bible. And I mean, I had to study and read and dig. And then the rabbi would challenge me with questions. And my pastor, that wasn't a strength. He was a man of prayer. He shared the gospel a lot. He would help you develop just to be someone that loved the word of God and loved the Lord and shared your faith and things. But he was not an apologist. He was not a defender of the faith. He was not one that was learned in all different theological studies and Hebrew and Greek and things like that. So he wasn't the one to go to with those kinds of questions. And really, I didn't know anyone to go to with those kinds of questions. When I started college, I started learning Hebrew seriously because I thought, I've got to be able to read the text for myself.

I can't just depend on what someone else says because you get thrown. I sat with brilliant rabbis, very, very devoted religious men. They were just as devoted, it seemed, as I was.

You know what I'm saying? They prayed for hours every day. I prayed for hours every day. They studied for hours.

I studied for hours. They talked about loving God. I talked about loving God. And they certainly looked a lot more authentically Jewish than me going to a church. Nothing Jewish about that, right? They're there in the synagogue, long beards, studying the Hebrew texts. And these things were challenging.

Challenge you emotionally, intellectually. And when we talk about apologetics in defense of the faith, it's not just for those who don't agree with us. It's not just for those who don't believe. It's to help those within the faith.

It's to help those who do believe. According to best-selling novelist Dan Brown, DaVinci Code, these other mega-selling books, according to his story, his mother was an organist, I think, in an Episcopalian church. His dad more scientifically, mathematically oriented. He liked his dad's scientific rational reasoning.

He liked his mother's spirituality and faith. But as he got to be a young man, teenager, he started to find contradictions between spirituality and science and faith and rational thinking. And according to him, he went to the local priest and he said, I'm reading the Bible and it seems to contradict science.

And what do I do? According to Dan Brown, the priest said to him, nice boys don't ask questions like that. Dan Brown walked out of the church. You can see that anti-religious, anti-church mentality in his novels, glaringly, quite openly. I mean, you read it, it's like something happened somewhere along the line.

That's what happened. So when we don't provide solid answers for people, when we don't have an environment where a college student can come with his questions, where we're not able to help a younger teen that just got exposed to Bible bashing tweets or notes sent out via TikTok or whatever the social media form is, kids get discouraged. Older people get discouraged. They wonder, is it true?

Is it real? You got the pressure of society on top of that. So people struggle.

People do wonder. And that's why through the Bible, you have this aspect of debating, of reasoning. I'm going to look at some verses about Jesus in a moment, but here, let me just run through a few scriptures with you. A lot of people have the idea that to really be a fervent believer, you almost have to turn your mind off. Just turn that brain off. Now, we can overthink and not have simple faith, but simple faith does not require you to be an idiot.

Simple faith does not require you to turn your brain off. Here, Acts 17, 2, as his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue and on three Sabbath days, he reasoned with them from the scriptures. Acts 17, 17, he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks. Acts 18, 4, every Sabbath, he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Same thing once again. Acts 18, 19, they arrived at Ephesus where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went to the synagogue and reasoned with them.

I mean, over and over. Acts 19, Paul entered the synagogue, verse 8, and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. So he's arguing, he's reasoning. This was something he did regularly, and this is something that I had to learn to do, because I was kind of thrown in the deep water as a brand new believer, and either it was learn to swim or sink in a hurry. In point of fact, I have met Jewish believers in Jesus all around the world, and I've heard them share that they were struggling. They got hit with questions from the rabbis. Their parents wanted them to talk to the counter-missionary rabbi when they were new believers or whatever happened to them, and they were struggling because here are solid questions being raised, things that assault their faith.

Friends, we don't shut our brains to these. People struggle. Just because you don't struggle doesn't mean your kids don't struggle. Just because you don't struggle doesn't mean your spouse doesn't struggle.

Just because your pastor doesn't struggle doesn't mean that you don't struggle. Genuine questions. Can I trust this translation or not? Did the New Testament writers get things wrong or not?

Is there some hidden agenda here or not? And when those questions are presented and you have solid answers, these Jewish believers and others have said, I was straying. I was losing my faith.

I was becoming discouraged, and I read your material, or I watched this debate you did, and faith came alive in my heart. Here, Dave Gettleman, currently the general manager of the New York Giants, previously general manager of the Carolina Panthers, took them to the Super Bowl with their 15-1 season. Dave Gettleman and I met in Carolina, Charlotte, a few years ago. What's his story? Well, Jewish man began attending a messianic congregation with one of his friends, was starting to believe in Yeshua, but had a lot of questions. He attended a debate I did in New York City with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, and that was the night his questions were answered.

That was the night that he knew that he knew he was believing the truth, and then he jumped in both feet afterwards. Yeah, powerful testimonies. We got a call.

I'm going to play some excerpts for you in a little while. We got a call from a woman. She's written to us subsequently. She, from the age of 27 until around her early 50s, was living as, quote, lesbian Christian, but was strong in her faith, meaning she read the word, she believed she was being a solid Christian. When her mother would come and give her scriptures against it, she'd say, I don't see Jesus being quoted there. I see Paul, and Paul had a issue with women, and I see this one, and I don't see Jesus being quoted.

That was her answer, and she's wanted us to understand that she was really serious. She would have been orthodox in many of her other beliefs. You would have thought, hey, here's a solid Christian lady, but she's living with another woman, and she's believing that it's fine in God's sight. So here she is, deeply deceived, and not in right relationship with God, although she was convinced she was. And we're going to play clips from three debates today, one where Dr. James White and I teamed up debating a gay pastor and a lesbian pastor, another where I'm debating a Greek scholar about the gifts of the Spirit, do they continue, and then another where I'm debate dialogue with a liberal rabbi, respected rabbi in England, about Jesus being the Messiah in Messianic prophecy.

So we're going to play some of those clips through, and then again, bottom of the hour, I've got this announcement to make to you, I'm really, really psyched about, and would love your prayer support as I step into this. So this woman watches the debate, and she said, God brought her to her knees. It wasn't that she even said, you know, I need to repent. God brought her to her knees to repent of the sin in her life and of rejecting what his word said and recognizing the whole of scripture was against her lifestyle. She told the person she's with, it's over, and she is as strong sounding as anyone I'm talking to in terms of determination to move forward in Jesus. And while she's not attracted to men at the moment, she has lost her attraction to women. Yeah, that's the power of the gospel at work in her life.

And I'm sure if she felt the twins of attraction, she'd rebuke it or just ignore it because she's determined to follow Jesus. What happened? She watched the debate. So look, I can be a debater in a non-constructive way. I can be a debater in a harmful way. What I mean is I can be argumentative.

I can just pick a fight. You say one thing, I say the other. That's a fleshly thing that is unhealthy, unhelpful, doesn't glorify the Lord. Oh, if you just want to have fun, you know, debating issues and sharpening each other, debating issues and sharpening each other, that's fine. That's one thing.

But otherwise it is unhelpful in and of itself. However, godly debates where people are trying to catch you in your words as religious leaders try to catch Jesus, Yeshua in his words, or God using a policy to refute objections, God uses these. Eyes are open. Minds are changed.

Believers are strengthened. I have very little scientific background. I can give basic arguments, but I can't just do a scientific debate. No way, no how. But boy, I know John Lennox can.

And I know William Lane Craig can. It's not just their debating skills. It's the information.

The information is there. It's tremendously encouraging to know you're on the side of truth and you don't have to compromise your faith and you don't have some weird stuff that's not true. It's greatly encouraging. All right, we got some great clips to play for you. Don't go anywhere. Brown, your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hi friends, I've got an announcement I have been waiting to make and I finally have the opportunity to make it. So right now, what's today's date? April 5th.

Monday, April 5th. So you may be listening on podcast or watching online or watching on Dish TV or Pluto Network on America's Voice, watching this a few days later. So if I'm asking for prayer, unless you believe in the power of retroactive prayer, you don't need to be praying for this specifically, but there is a new Christian TV network, Awakening TV, spelled A-W-K-N-G.

So get rid of the other vowels after the first one. A-W-K-N-G. To find out more, go to awkngtv.com. I believe that's the right address. Brand new subscription-based network. It's got everything from theology shows to young people discussing issues to cooking shows. And we've come up with a show that we'll be doing for them and every week we'll get to play some highlights for you. So even if you don't subscribe, you'll get to see a few minutes of highlights.

It's called That's Debatable with Dr. Brown. I've got permission to announce it now. And immediately after radio today, drive home and from there go to the airport scheduled to fly into Florida, where a studio has been built specifically for this TV show.

And over the next two days, so Tuesday, Wednesday of this week, so all those hearing this now, please do pray. I'll be recording four debates a day from gay activist pastor to transgender pastor to evangelical turned atheist to Muslim to pro-abortion spokesperson. I mean an extraordinary range of debates that we'll be doing.

And it's a really neat format. It's going to be sharp, a few minutes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, just half hour shows. So within it, you know, it's going to be quick and to the point. So please pray with me. Luke 21 15 is a key verse that some of our prayer team got in their hearts. Luke 21 15. It's in a different context of disciples being persecuted, but Jesus saying at that time, I'll give you words and wisdom.

The Greek is literally a mouth, but I'll give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist. So please pray for me for the anointing of the Holy Spirit, for clarity of thought and mind, for grace, for truth to prevail. We want to minister to those that I'm debating and then we want these to be great, great tools. So I don't know when they'll be ready to start airing, maybe sometime next month.

If you're a subscriber to the network, you'll know. But again, each week we'll be able to grab a highlight from each debate once it airs and share it with all of you. So please pray. I know the Lord fashioned me to do this very thing, but I'm not relying on me, my strength, my knowledge, wisdom.

I'm relying entirely on the Lord and his grace and his truth to shine forth through me. A few years ago, Dr. James White and I were asked if we would do a debate together. We would do these all the time if we could. It's one of our greatest joys in life to team together and do debates rather than debate each other. We've only been able to do this twice so far, and each time has been rich and extraordinary. So this is a debate that Dr. James White and I did in Florida, and on the other side of the debate, a gay pastor and a lesbian pastor.

And they were very devoted to what they believed to be true and that God approved of their relationships, etc. So, you know, I said I was going to make the announcement at the bottom of the hour. I'll remake it then, but I was just so excited to make it. I made it a little early. So I want to take you into this. This is like the cross-examination back and forth.

We're asking each other questions, etc. So it's Dr. James White and I, on the other side, a gay pastor and a lesbian pastor, and we'll play a few clips. Check this out. A follow-up question along the same lines.

Yeah, please. At the end of Romans chapter one, this same argument that you've said to us is about idolatry. He then prescribes that they are murderers and these other things. Do you believe that homosexuality leads to the things that Paul prescribes therein? No, it's a common error to think that because Paul mentions actually a huge catalog of sins at the end, that that means that everyone commits all of those sins.

That's not the case at all. The point is that when a person exchanges the truth of God for the lie, there is a result. And the reason that homosexuality is mentioned in verses 26, 27 is because of that use of the phrase natural order, the way God made us. What this means is sin touches us at the very core of our being, the very identity of our being, and twists that relationship even at that point.

There is no connection to therefore saying that means you're going to automatically be disobedient to parents or automatically speak evil of authorities or anything like that. All those things flow from rebellion, but not every sin flows from every other sin. It's also interesting to note that we affirm all the other things are sin. Murder, idolatry, sexual immorality, we don't say they're only sin in the context of idol worship or if done in an idol temple. We all affirm that all those are sin and somehow people try to just pull out men with men, women with women, and say that doesn't mean what Paul said it meant. So again, this is the progression when we reject God that it leads to this, to this, to this, and hence the fallen human race. And there are many, many different manifestations of our fallen nature. All right, so that was the first part of that back and forth dialogue.

Again, questions being asked of us. So let's go to another clip from this. Remember, it was watching this debate that this that this woman who identified as a lesbian Christian for over 20 years was awakened to the reality of the gospel.

All right, clip number two. So then you believe, you don't believe that he uses the word therefore after talking about what you've described as homosexuality to describe behaviors that come out of that homosexual description, because he says therefore God gave them up over to reprobate minds after he says these, what you described as homosexual acts. Which verse are you referring to? I do apologize I didn't pull up the verse because I have have it memorized.

Thank you so much. But 24 comes before the description. I thought you had just said afterwards.

After. Read 24 and 25. Yeah, therefore God gave them over but then verse that's verse 24. 26 is is then therefore God gave them over to dishonoring passions and the women and so on and so forth.

So there's two therefores but they're they're introducing it and it sounded like you said there's something afterwards that somehow connects it with that other device list and that's what I'm sorry. The words there are for this reason and it's in um verse 26 and then we find um and then down in verse number 28 and even as they did not retain the uh retain even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge God gave them over to debase mind this is after he has described that that's what I'm talking about. Well but you'll notice that specifically verse 28 and just as they did not uh consider it right or good to uh keep God in their knowledge God gave them over. So again the point is in each one of these instances going all the way back to verse 21 when you refuse to see yourself when you are in sin when you do not submit to God and to the lordship of Jesus Christ there is going to be a resultant disruption of your relationship not only to God but to the creation around you and the point of verses 26 to 27 is that is even something that occurs inwardly even in our understanding of our attractions and that which God has given to us to even continue the species and so the point is that idolatry and sin touches all of mankind it's not just an external thing it touches every aspect of our being. And again Paul is explicit about this being contrary men with men women with women contrary to God's created order in Genesis 1 and he's not talking about the same person throughout this whole thing and this person gets worse where he's talking about humanity and again that that's why the progression keeps going the way it goes. So I want all right yeah so we just got to hear from Ruth for one split second there sorry we didn't get more of her voice in there but just you know the back and forth what does the text say what does it actually say and then one last clip just a short clip from this debate that we had a few years back. But my problem with this is simple when the Holy Spirit reveals to me that my life is good that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing it sounds like you're rejecting my relationship with God and the Holy Spirit speaking to me. Yeah I'm saying the Holy Spirit is not contradicting the word of God that's the bottom line and if I tell you if I tell you the Holy Spirit spoke to me that you're wrong then you have to reject the Holy Spirit speaking to me ultimately scripture is what where you agree on right. Thank you everybody. Now isn't that interesting that here you have this lesbian pastor saying that the Holy Spirit said to her her life is fine she's in good relationship with God the Holy Spirit will not contradict scripture this is a lesbian pastor saying that I was in another forum and a lesbian pastor encouraged everyone yes seek Jesus seek the word of God you need to do that so let's agree on that we seek the Lord and we look at the testimony of scripture but can I tell you the thing that brought us all to the table together was what we were not mean spirited angry hateful and it's not that we controlled ourselves during the debate no it's not the hatred is not in our heart anger is not in our heart only God's love for those for whom Jesus died who are not in right relationship with him here there I'm sure if you talk to these people they're devoted pastors in different ways and caring for their fox and so on and yet then it wrote the deception having a public discussion a public dialogue where you can open these things up not only helps educate the church it helps those who are struggling and confused and it even convicts those who've been on the wrong side the Holy Spirit can use this to jar and open their hearts and minds you better believe debates can be used for the glory of God and thank you those pledging your prayer support for the debates will be recording thank you for praying it's going to make a great difference we'll be right back so it's the line of fire with your host dr michael brown get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four truth here again is dr michael brown the word of God famous verse in first peter three tells us that we should be prepared to give a reason for what we believe we should be prepared to give a defense of our faith why because people will have questions and if we just say well just believe just believe many people will walk away at that you say yeah well they just need a miracle in their lives well let's say God gives them a miracle let's say they are miraculously healed let's say something happens to them that's utterly life-changing and now the months go on the years go on and people begin to challenge what they believe okay you had a miracle but how do you know the bible is really true you had a miracle how do you know what your church teaches is really true you had a miracle but how do you know bible translations can be trusted you had a miracle but how do you explain these verses in the old testament that paints god as a monster and what do you do with this and what do you do with that and what about the people who aren't healed and next thing that miracle alone doesn't carry you yes the old saying is true a person with an argument is excuse me a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument that your ongoing experience in relationship with god is the foundation for everything but what about questions in your mind what about if you're not sure if what you believe is true i have a book due out may 11th we'll be writing to everyone about it and how you can get signed pre-ordered copies of the first edition it's called has god failed you has god failed you finding faith when you're not even sure god is real and there's a chapter in that book called permission to doubt from a verse in jude that says have mercy on those who doubt there is a doubt that is stubborn that is hard-hearted that god rebukes and there's another doubt where it's i don't know if i can is there a god or is this i don't know and a lot of people don't know where to go with their questions and they they grow and they grow and they grow and then finally just just break away and leave and deny their faith so please pray right after radio today scheduled to fly down to florida so again if you're watching on a delayed broadcast or listening on podcast after the show this is monday april 5th scheduled to fly down to florida immediately after radio today right after the broadcast and then do a total of eight debates over two days their half hour broadcast on the brand new awakening tv network so awakening tv dot com to find out more you get a free trial so it's wide range of broadcasts from from young people talking about difficult issues to ladies talking about famous women in the bible to cooking shows and this brand new show which i now have permission to announce that's debatable with dr brown and each show will be a half hour long so with you know intro outro things like that will have a core within it of maybe you know 20 minutes back and forth real sharp debate time and i'm looking at the schedule from a minister famous for his replacement theology teaching so we'll be debating has the church replaced israel to someone that was well known certain christian circles before falling away now with lots of questions to someone that's aggressive atheist leader in america former evangelical to a muslim debating the quran or the bible which is the word of god uh to a very out and proud gay pastor to a transgender pastor um so we're talking about you know male to female female to male situation like that about transgender identities um woman who's abortion proponent discussing god's heart pro-life pro-choice yeah uh and then uh and then one more we still have to lock in so pray and this is this is not a matter of i want to win a debate oh i can win a debate or come out looking good no i want the lord to be exalted i want hearts and minds to be opened i want lives to be changed i want believers to be strengthened i want this to be a resource and even though this is a subscription-based network for the year to get all the shows uh every week uh with our arrangement with the tv station every week we'll take like a few minutes out of each debate and play them for you on the air so every week you'll get to see a highlight from the debate it's a lively format it's going to allow for a lot of back and forth and exchanges so thank you for praying uh let's let's take a look at matthew chapter 22 matthew chapter 22 it tells us this that that different religious leaders came to jesus and notice what it says in verse verse 15 then the pharisees went and plotted how they might trap him with a word or trap him in his words and they sent him some of their disciples along with the Herodian saying teacher we know that you're honest and teach the way of god and truth which was accurate what others think doesn't concern you for you do not look at men's appearance all accurate tell us therefore what do you think is it permitted to pay taxes to cesar or not now these are presumably sharp guys with good legal reasoning and they're used to going back and forth and back and forth and they probably thought this through whatever he says is going to be trapped but you're sure knowing their wickedness is why you test me you hypocrites showed me the tax money so he knew by the spirit so number one he's a step ahead because he has supernatural insight by the holy spirit let's believe for that that the lord will give words that are not just logical answers but but spiritually anointed and spiritually wise answers during these debates so they bring him a denarius he said to them whose image is this whose inscriptions caesars they said to him then he said to them give therefore to caesar the things that are caesars and to god the things that are gods and hearing this they were amazed and that others try to trap and see trap him in his words trap him in his words he's a public figure he's the messiah he's making claims if we can trap him in his words we can prove he's not we can embarrass him we can expose him one more scripture and then i want to take you into a couple of recent debates ahead ax chapter 18 fascinating verse and one that's been very meaningful to me over the years ax chapter 18 when apollos wanted to cross over to okay verse 27 the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him now he was mighty in scriptures and discipled by priscilla and aquila upon arrival notice this he greatly helped those who by grace had believed how did he help them verse 28 for he powerfully refuted the jewish people in public demonstrating through the scriptures that the messiah was yeshua how did he greatly help those who by grace had believed by powerfully refuting other jews apollos himself a jew in public debate right demonstrating through the scriptures that the messiah was jesus so friends let's step back from that and understand that debates not only reach out to the lost and we've we've met the people that have come to faith i'm sure there are many the vast majority we never met but have met those who've come to faith through debates we've done and thankfully there there are so many good apologists out christian apologists and dealing with rational scientific issues and folks like my friend frank turic on college campuses you know josh mcdowell and sean mcdowell and and folks like william lane craig who are out doing what they do and my friend james white others like david wood and others doing islamic debates and others and such good fruit has come out of it but i i was invited to one country where there had been a local messianic jew who debated a very solid rabbi and the very solid rabbi kind of demolished him and rather than recognizing that he didn't do well and brought reproach to the lord he kept challenging him to a series of debates somehow he thought he did well and those debates went on several of them and it brought reproach to the messianic jewish community in that country a messianic jewish leader asked me michael would you fly over to that country and would you debate this rabbi let's do two different debates would you debate him and i said yeah of course absolutely the rabbi was willing to do it never would you know step back from a challenge to put his ideas out publicly feels that judaism must be able to hold its own in the marketplace of ideas and not not shun from public debate etc so we went over there to do the debates and my friend told me the whole reason he wanted to go there was to encourage the believers because it had been so discouraging to see one of their leaders even though not a prominent leader but one of their leaders so trounced and and the lord's name mocked it discouraged them from their witness made it look like what they believe was stupid and then when we did the debates and were able to present the truth clearly and and respond to objections strongly that brought a wave of encouragement to the believers there all right let me take you into a in-house debate this is christian versus christian or believer versus believer on the gifts of the spirit whether they are for today do they continue for today and this was with a professor teacher dr theodor zechariah who has a phd in new testament greek and we were having our discussion about the gifts of the spirit whether for today this was the time of me asking him questions and going back and forth you know he would ask me questions i would ask him questions so let's check this out i i gave you a number of explicit texts when you referenced at the end yourself where we are called on to pursue spiritual gifts or first thessalonians five where paul says don't despise prophecy etc can you give me any explicit texts that say we should we should not do these things today well again um i believe that god told us that the prophecies will end and he will stop them so you say that that's going to be until the end i don't believe that's what's borne out by the exegesis of first corinthians 13. i think that's an imposition on the text he's not talking about the end of time he's not talking about the parousia he's not talking about the second coming or heaven or perfection in the afterlife or death he's not talking about any of those things he's talking about a completed revelatory process all right but to repeat my question is there an explicit text yes because i read that said do not i read said do not forbid tongues okay and i don't think that's the right reading of that let's put that aside earnestly pursue these things especially prophecy can you give me a text that says don't do that he's saying earnestly desire the spiritual in first corinthians 12 he uses their word because that's what they're doing what they think is best in first corinthians chapter 14 in that verse verse 39 he's not saying the same thing as he was saying there but he's saying it's it's different and so you can equate them well again that's your interpretation i am saying that desiring prophecy is what paul was urging them to do oh does he ever urge me not to well no i mean he he he doesn't say don't desire prophecy okay so he does say desire it and he never says don't desire it okay you you're trying to trick me no i'm trying to go with the word no no no no no sir i would not try to trick you prophecies are going to cease when the complete revelation comes then you're no longer going to seek them because they're not evident they're not coming they're not there you don't seek what's not there or what god doesn't intend it's god that intends for them to stop all right so you agree he never says don't seek them he does say seek them he never says don't seek them yeah well i i i want to say yes but with reservation okay because what you're what you're implying with that is that they must continue in the same fashion up until the coming of christ well i don't believe that's borne out by the text okay so we'll come back to first corinthians in a moment but all clear on that he does explicitly say seek he never explicitly says don't seek all right yeah so that was just a little interchange and by the way i was i was challenged to do that debate of course i would do in the heartbeat gladly and i so appreciate dr zechariah is doing the debate but i was asked to do it in other words folks reached out to me and said would you do this so with great joy and you need to know what the word says know what to believe right we come back my debate with the liberal rabbi about messianic prophecy stay tuned it's the line of fire with your host activist author international speaker and theologian dr michael brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four true here again is dr michael brown you know as i travel around the world obviously traveled more around the world before covid and during but as i travel around the world one thing that i would often hear all around america around the world people saying oh i love to watch on youtube but then specifically i love to watch your debates i thought boy i wish the lord would give me more opportunity to have debate sometimes we get great calls some of you will call in and challenge me on a point or question me on something or sometimes we'll set up a friendly debate but i i love to do it i feel grace to do it it's one of those situations where you really come in leaning on the lord because you don't want to trust your own wisdom and you know that you're representing him and his truth so you want to do it well and and you want to demonstrate his his grace towards others in the midst of speaking the truth clearly so there's a lot that rides on it and again i know people that are in the faith having come through a debate that came out of a cult or wrong thinking or error because of a debate and many who are strengthened in their faith are still in the faith because of a debate so so excited about this series that will start airing on awakening tv you can find out more at awakening tv.com about the network uh they'll be telling you more about the debate show that'll i don't know maybe start airing next month we'll have to see but uh scheduled to record eight different debates to start things off and really really excited to see the lord glorified in the midst of this and again luke 21 15 is a key verse we've been praying that the lord would give me words and wisdom that no one would be able to resist so it's not about me doing well it's about the lord being glorified so a few years ago i was in england and justin briarly with the wonderful unbelievable broadcast for so many years facilitating discussion between people of different faiths and atheists and believers and discussion dialogue among fellow believers asked me if i'd have a dialogue with a well-known liberal rabbi so this is a rabbi who'd have a different viewpoint than an orthodox rabbi so still very much jewish but much more rational humanistic and thinking than an ultra-orthodox would be more fundamentalist we could probably relate more to the way an ultra-orthodox rabbi would think about scripture than a reformed rabbi but we were discussing messiah messianic prophecy justin briarly is is uh moderating the dialogue so let's take him we got three clips to play for you let's go famous rabbi like jacob enden in 1757 who wrote about jesus being one of us who did not come to a to abolish the law of the prophets and then from joseph clausner and yechesco kaufman and albert einstein and martin boober and geyser vermation and others reform rabbis like abraham geiger and kaufman caller color or pincus lapid david flusterman and israeli scholars all of whom had an appreciation of jesus the jew some who believed that he was a great teacher a luminary different ways so i'm saying just take it a step further he wasn't just a great teacher he wasn't just a luminary he came as as messiah and if we can if we can discover him as one of our own and not coming to start a brand new foreign religion but rather coming to fulfill what's written in moses and the prophets i think that's the first major step to getting us in the right direction before we talk about who you think jesus was what do you make of michael's view that there will one day be a sort of a revelation an opening of the eyes of the jewish people to the messiahship of of christ well if he's happy being a messianic jew then great i've got no problem with that and it's just not for me and frankly it's not for most jews and also if you're talking about time scales i mean we've been waiting for what 2000 years that's a heck of a long time so if i and the whole point about biblical prophecy um was you know if i tell you the world's going to come to an end in the year 5072 you'll think well so what you know i'm going to be gone within 80 years let alone 3000 it doesn't really make any difference the whole point of prophecy is to tell people what's going to happen either this year or next year because then you can really do something about it then you can repent you can mend your ways you can build walls around the oceans goodness knows what you know so the whole point of biblical prophecy was the here and now telling people that something is going to happen in 2000 years well big deal um and similarly uh for us you know if something was going to happen it should have happened right in the year what what do you make of that argument it's been too long for your prophecy oh no it's quite the opposite it's quite the opposite because traditional jews have been waiting longer and traditional judaism we claim the idea of messiah goes all the way back to the beginning so traditional jews would be saying that you know we say it hasn't come yet whereas you say it has no no no i'm saying the first part we already have the first part in the down payment so we have great confidence in the rest whereas you don't even have the first part of the down payment so so you've been waiting longer with nothing we we have the deposit down payment plus the message spreading throughout throughout the entire world just so prophecy is being fulfilled every day in that respect all right so that was the the first part of her interaction and obviously prophecy does tell us a lot of things about today and the prophets tell us how god wants us to live you know old testament prophets rebuking sin etc but they also prophesied about the end of days and they also prophesied about the messiah so it's both a message for now and a message for future hope all right so now some of the dialogue discussion continues well you know you see i haven't got a problem now because for me to counter that means debunking you um and that's not very rude well but you know as i say in a sense i want to to you know this is where we have those frank discussions so don't feel that you're in any way being rude by by doing that and michael i'm sure is perfectly used to to that kind of thing um i mean this leads us i think to the core of the issue which is what why don't you feel yourself that jesus did fulfill messianic prophecy and and who was jesus in that case as far as you're concerned let me tell you my view which i believe quite strongly is the jewish view of his orthodox or reform um which is that jesus certainly existed uh he was a great teacher clearly he was a great preacher clearly um full stop that's it you know not son of god not divine um uh was he a rabbi a sort of itinerant could have been it could have been part of the pharisaic tradition that was going along uh and um yes michael quoted some names of people who were accepting him more but that weren't accepting as messiah they were accepting him as as as someone who existed within the rabbinic tradition you know was rabbinic and and and so forth and and the reason why i and jews throughout the last two thousand years didn't accept jesus is because for our point of view he just failed the litmus test there's only one test which is to bring peace to the world and you just look around look at the news and the papers and we're not we're not there doesn't mean to say we have to give up we can all work towards it um but he just failed the test and it's not and you know this is not a modernist view look at the acts of the apostles chapter 5 from rabban gamliel when people run to him and say look there's this guy jesus claimed to be the messiah what do we do and he says just calm down you know if he is the messiah great you know great that's what we want and if he isn't well so what it'll peter out it'll peter out and we don't have this idea of heresy or it's a heretical to claim to be the messiah because there were dozens of people who claimed to be the messiah and they were wrong and you know we should have been right but so really um and by the way we talk much much more about the messianic age because it's the era of peace rather than the person than the person and it's also going to just give me an idea then from your perspective jonathan of what you are awaiting um in terms of this messianic age what will be the marker that the messiah or the messianic age has come well i mean humanity clearly flawed because you know we mess things up in our personal lives in our social lives internationalized and so forth and so really the idea of a messianic age is that we can actually get together and just do the decent things and peace and harmony it's as simple as that and we all know those moments where you know for half an hour the family roots together or the country comes together or whatever um and it would be nice to make that half an hour not just half an hour but a day a week a year and so forth we know it's possible um but it doesn't happen because people are flawed and therefore it's not a matter of um waiting for some external intervention we've all got a role in bringing that just by kinder nicer spreading the gospel if you like of of good relations so it's it's an ideal we're working towards it doesn't sound as though you're even that invested in a person being involved in this in a messiah and we judaism at large has largely talked about the time messianic era because it's the peace that counts not the person who brings it in um and also we we don't have this imminent sense um you know it it might happen next year it might well happen in 2000 years we don't it's just the working towards it in other words that we progress towards a better version of today yeah so uh i then got to respond to that i don't have time to show it to you you can watch that debate on our youtube channel ask dr brown ask dear brown or over on facebook ask dr brown but if you look for it on youtube just search for a liberal rabbi and you'll see my response which talks about the emphasis on the messiah the coming of the messiah then of course that there were two phases to his mission for us to come and die for our sins and and for that message now to be brought to the entire world and then for him to return at the end and destroy wickedness and establish his kingdom you can see how these things get interesting you can see how people will be drawn to watch them and again my goal is not to win a debate my goal is not to look good my goal is to see the lord glorified my goal is to see a spirit of truth rise my goal is to see error exposed my goal is to see people who are hurting or disbelieving find answers find hope find faith and this requires not just knowledge of scripture but sensitivity of heart and the leading and anointing of the holy spirit and that's why when i go to do a debate even if i know i have all the answers in my head you know what i'm saying i'm not concerned that someone's going to raise something to me that i'll think oh no i don't have an answer for that in debates where i'm prepared to know what's coming obviously it's i'm in my field if i was out of my field i wouldn't touch the thing for that very reason because i'd be stumped and would make god and the gospel look bad here i am as representative and i can't speak adequately but i go in confident that i have the information confident that i'm on the side of truth but i go in with a sense of holy dependence on the lord because this very sacred ground to me and and we're debating things that are life and death issues and that perhaps people can be set free and eyes can be opened and lives can be changed and it could literally be the difference between life and death between being with god and being judged outside of his presence so thank you for praying we'll give you updates god willing at the end of the week on friday i'll let you know uh how the broadcast went how the how the shooting went maybe i'll be tweeting about it or posting on social media as well oh oh and um we've got tomorrow on the tuesday broadcast we're going to just talk about the sabbath what does the bible say about the sabbath the wednesday broadcast what does the bible say about tithing so don't miss a single show this week another program powered by the truth network